We keep on getting these stories, but never any sociological explanation of why these assaults keep on happening.
Why are the men who are committing these assaults doing this? Is there a heavy-duty strain of sexual sadism (e.g. like in some Japanese sexuality) in Egyptian sexual culture, that just enjoys humiliating women as a sexual end in itself? Or, are these conservative Muslims who are crowd-enforcing sharia on non-compliant women? Or, is just gangs of young men "wilding"?
I can understand the psychology of gang-rape. At least, for the male, there is sexual release in rape. But this form of assault over & over again makes absolutely no sense, and the press just seems to want to report the outrage rather than make any sense out it.
Agreed, if media is going to provide anything it should provide useful information. What is in fact happening? Who is doing what to whom? Is the woman alive? What the hell is going on? The NYT is uncommonly worthless.
Do you think Crack would be willing to take a, um, crack at explaining this in terms of white racism and white privilege? I think we all could use that, to add some context. Also the GOP #waronwomen.
Now all cultures are equal and if you think gang rape is wrong it's probably because you are a racist and a bigot. Lighten up people, every man needs to get some once in a while. And you womens, relax and enjoy it. Repeatedly.
Look, the fact is simply horrific. If you are a woman without male protectors present to deter rape, you have no expectation of safety.
OK, that's the fact Jack. Got it? You precious little western creatures who can not conceive of this fact of near eastern life need to get over yourselves and open your eyes.
This is the fear we and her natural parents live with every single day for my Egyptian Christian daughter and her two sisters.
Most of you take your racism, and the country's, with such little concern, it's no wonder we can't eliminate it.
The assumption in that statement being that we are all racist. Also note how he, despite posting some of the most anti-white racist screed I've seen, does not include himself in our group. Further, note how he sees himself as part of the solution: "[...] no wonder we can't [...]." Classic case of 'otherization'.
True racism I've found you and your name is The Crack Emcee.
No doubt incidents like this gang rape in Egypt, and everything else we find distasteful in the Arab and Islamic world, are caused by Israel not immediately agreeing to a Palestinian state on terms dictated by Obama and Kerry, in exchange for no concessions from the Palestinians. At least that seems to be the view of the US foreign policy establishment.
There is a photograph out there by Mike Urban (Seattle journalist) - award winning I believe, that captures a gang sexual assault of a woman during Seattle's Mardi Gras in Pioneer Square.
There is a reason I avoid very large crowds. Too much batshit crazy, primal violence just under the surface. People do things in massive crowds due to the sense of anonymity they would never dream of doing alone.
So, if it can happen in oh so progressive Seattle....
What do you realistically expect from a culture that teaches men that women are inferior creatures with less intelligence than males but with plenty of "temptation" factor that insures that the males can claim the woman "provoked" him into action? Women in this culture are subjected to FGM to insure that these "impure" desires are nipped in the bud to preserve her modesty and honor. And younger males, poor devils, generally can't afford to marry until they are in their 30s or 40s (have to save for a house and dowry).
The middle eastern Muslim male has no respect for a free woman. They are seen as enemy's property to be snatched and taken as an act of war. It's in Mohammed's book.
Down with Whitey! I'm sure we can lay Egyptian misogyny at the doorstep of some combination of colonialism/racism/Republicans/Illuminati.
Egypt was originally a peaceful empire of color, where Black people lived in harmony with nature and each other. (unlike the warlike Zimbabwe who terrorized much of Africa with their jet planes) Eventually the White man showed up, conquered the peaceful Black people, raped the land and the people (which is why the people of Egypt are no longer Black), shot the nose off of ther Sphinx to hide the fact that it depicted a Black man and taught the egyptian men the evil ways of the West.
Crack has already wondered aloud why he should care about black girls being kidnapped, raped and enslaved in real time.
As long as the kidnappers, rapists and enslavers are muslim, non-whites non-westerners."
Yeah, when you want to talk about the crimes of white AMERICANS let me know.
Oh wait - you NEVER want to talk about the crimes of Americans! Africa! Egypt! Anywhere but here!
Because - I love this - American crimes, that benefit white's pocketbooks, THEY HAVE NO ANSWER, right? Simply give the money back? IMPOSSIBLE! INCONCEIVABLE! UNIMAGINABLE!
You're fools with guns.
Please, guys, tell me about black's "bad culture" some more,...
What do you realistically expect from a culture that teaches whites that blacks are inferior creatures with less intelligence than whites but with plenty of "temptation" factor that insures that the whites can claim the blacks "provoked" them into action? Blacks in this culture are subjected to white-enforced poverty to insure that these "impure" desires are nipped in the bud to preserve black's lesser stature and viability. And younger blacks, poor devils, generally can't afford marriage and children until they are in their 30s or 40s (have to avoid the government).
Obviously it is BLACKS fault. We made whites set this up!
Yeah! We african-americans are helpless before white power! We have no agency, and thus must rely on guilt trips to convince the all-powerful whitey to give us rights, privileges and things!
Let's talk about those things, daddy needs a new pair of shoes! Racism!
You white devils better start coughing up, otherwise my fellow bruthas and I will enter a permanent underclass where we will constantly be victim to your white oppression! Take that!
No Crack, it's *you* who believe that blacks are inferior in every way.
If group A is capable of exploiting group B at every time, in every place, in every way, century after century, and group B has never, ever shown itself capable of overpowering group A, then group A is superior to group B.
Now, unlike you, some of us are capable of actually looking at history and recognizing that WHITE'S CONTROLLED EVERYTHING, ALWAYS is a load of cock and bull. We have plenty of examples of Asians and Africans lording it over Europeans - enough that we might say that these particular evils are part of the human condition, not simply a white one. And, as a result, that the superiority of any group is not a given thing.
But of course, you deny that. And so, in your revised world, whites are your superiors, and boy does that piss you off.
But if your determined to live out your fantasy on the bottom rung, lost in a racist ideology that blacks are incapable of any level of self-empowerment, go for it.
Appearing in a shopping mall near you in the very near future.
Global trends from your Islamic jihadist friends.
Its not just about the male rage or its sub-current of fear; its mostly about maintaining [lower class male]privilege and dominance while enforcing group identity and rules. Party on b*4ches
I believe I posted a few words about Islamic culture vs. Western-European-and-Christian-derived culture a few days back.
This is another instance.
The cultural mindset that derived from 1500 years of "Christendom" in Europe is incredibly from the cultural mindset that is everyday life in Egypt.
I admit: the life of women in Christendom over the past millennium and a half is often derided by modern feminists.
But I also notice that it was the influence of Christianity which encouraged warriors to protect women who were not part of their tribe/family. (See here, which is not history...but is a record of the ideals that knights aspired to.)
Maybe this contributed to the "pedestal" effect that feminists complained about over the past century.
I notice that most of the cultures of the Middle East do not foster this attitude towards women.
Instead, I see cultures in which men protect their own women, but feel that other women who are unprotected are fair game...
YoungHegelian wants to know the psychology. M. C. ButtCrack's commenting here: why doesn't he explain it? He's the only person I know who's ever publicly come out in favor of mass rape - in his case mass rape of white women by black men. He was last seen defending that policy preference just 10 posts down in the Las Vegas killings comment thread. So, ButtCrack, how about telling us what you get out of fantasizing about gang-rape? You would know the psychology better than any of us, and know it 'from the inside'.
All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, WHAT HAVE THE WHITE PEOPLE EVER DONE FOR BLACKS?
Historic white America treated blacks abysmally. OK, done with that?
Created slavery, no. there's a wiki page on "History of Slavery" that's a nice summary. Slavery predates America. Predates England. Actually, pretty much predates history. It got to be such an abomination in the South of whites who needed slaves to prop up plantations and because of Africans who did all kinds of innovative an corrupt ways to supply the demand.
Done with that?
Now what sociological explanation explains why this occurs? And is it something we (the U.S.) should be trying to change? And what are the consequences of the U.S. trying to impose it's sociological constraints on another culture?
I really don't give a shit about you, and frankly, I really don't give a shit about most black people. It's nothing personal, it's just that I've got my own life to live, and spending every second of my day trying to devise how to best inflict pain and suffering and tens of millions of people whom I will never actually meet just isn't at the top of my list of things to do. The fact that you think we're all going around, plotting how to eventually 'hurt the black man' says nothing good about your state of mind and soul. Please, get some help, it's not healthy. Please understand that I have not spent a single moment of my life expending energy to hurt black people - I just don't care enough to do so.
We don't want to hurt you Crack. In fact, believe you me, if I had a time machine... well, going back and preventing a white man from buying your great, great granddaddy and shipping him to Charleston might not top the list, but it's definitely a top ten. Maybe even top five. And I'm sure I'm not alone on that.
Under present political and social circumstances, Caucasian men are prohibited from either defending themselves or counter-attacking in discussions relative to race and race-relations. All blacks know this and, quite pusilllanimously, take full advantage. Nevertheless, comparing the civil societies of Sweden and Haiti, for example, is more than sufficient.
Tarrou "I blame white people. Reparations are needed. You all should stop being so racist. There you go Crack, I got you."
I wish people would not post crack-bait. Let crack be the first to hijack the thread for his sick, deluded purposes, if he so wishes, but in the meantime stay on topic. In this case, for instance, the utterly commonplace nature of rape and other violence in the supposedly moderate Muslim nation of Egypt. (Must be the Jewwws' fault, when it isn't the Copts' fault. /sarc
I really don't give a shit about you, and frankly, I really don't give a shit about most black people."
With that one sentence, you're not telling me anything about whites I don't know, and haven't said a billion times - you're just honest enough to admit it, while your brothers are shitty cowards who hide their racism behind lame defenses.
Blacks are trying to build a country while whites are being you.
That's the problem. Whites have never tried to create a country out of this - just you selfish white individuals who suck the government tit and then tell others to do different.
Make the check big guys, HUGE, like 100 Trillion Dollars, because - considering we're supposed to be countrymen on the same team - you're too shitty a people for anything less than a total financial reaming.
Keep it up and I'll try to move the proceedings to reparations, equalling total white bankruptcy, AND the requirement of a child sacrifice.
"All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, WHAT HAVE THE WHITE PEOPLE EVER DONE FOR BLACKS?"
What did Chris Rock say?
"Niggers always want credit for doing shit they was supposed to do!"
Congrats, Jason - whites are niggers! They want credit for - finally - treating the citizens of this country like citizens of this country. And they want that credit because their fellow citizens are black - which, I hate to tell you, is racist.
Sorry, but racists don't get credit, when they throw the least a society is expected to do at me, as some kind of benevolent gift. "Fresh water"? Please, white people, you shouldn't have! (I couldn't believe you were stupid and callous enough to say that about human beings, but - white culture being the sick thing it is - there you are,…)
What? Am I supposed to think that whites are great for that list? No, I think whites are the cheapest, most inhumane, sociopathic, and psychopathic, scum this planet has ever seen - and that's backed-up by 400 years of historical fact.
And, one day - if you're exposed to human beings enough - you might mature enough to try and outgrow it.
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३७ टिप्पण्या:
I blame white people. Reparations are needed. You all should stop being so racist.
There you go Crack, I got you.
The "Religion of Peace" is at it again. Hillary will save us all. She's busy making hard choices.
We keep on getting these stories, but never any sociological explanation of why these assaults keep on happening.
Why are the men who are committing these assaults doing this? Is there a heavy-duty strain of sexual sadism (e.g. like in some Japanese sexuality) in Egyptian sexual culture, that just enjoys humiliating women as a sexual end in itself? Or, are these conservative Muslims who are crowd-enforcing sharia on non-compliant women? Or, is just gangs of young men "wilding"?
I can understand the psychology of gang-rape. At least, for the male, there is sexual release in rape. But this form of assault over & over again makes absolutely no sense, and the press just seems to want to report the outrage rather than make any sense out it.
Agreed, if media is going to provide anything it should provide useful information. What is in fact happening? Who is doing what to whom? Is the woman alive? What the hell is going on? The NYT is uncommonly worthless.
I saw a woman rolling along in a wheelchair today. She wasn't wearing a top, and the headlights were ablaze.
Nobody went near her,...
Tarrou,
"I blame white people. Reparations are needed. You all should stop being so racist.
There you go Crack, I got you."
Most of you take your racism, and the country's, with such little concern, it's no wonder we can't eliminate it.
Oh well, as I've said, that's what's going to sink you so, please, carry on:
Increase the size of that check,...
Do you think Crack would be willing to take a, um, crack at explaining this in terms of white racism and white privilege? I think we all could use that, to add some context. Also the GOP #waronwomen.
Now all cultures are equal and if you think gang rape is wrong it's probably because you are a racist and a bigot. Lighten up people, every man needs to get some once in a while. And you womens, relax and enjoy it. Repeatedly.
Look, the fact is simply horrific. If you are a woman without male protectors present to deter rape, you have no expectation of safety.
OK, that's the fact Jack. Got it? You precious little western creatures who can not conceive of this fact of near eastern life need to get over yourselves and open your eyes.
This is the fear we and her natural parents live with every single day for my Egyptian Christian daughter and her two sisters.
You misunderstand, Crack. As an african-american male, I have seen the truth of your pronouncements and wish to apprentice your blog-trolling ways.
Down with Whitey! I'm sure we can lay Egyptian misogyny at the doorstep of some combination of colonialism/racism/Republicans/Illuminati.
I don't want to miss out on those checks!
Most of you take your racism, and the country's, with such little concern, it's no wonder we can't eliminate it.
The assumption in that statement being that we are all racist. Also note how he, despite posting some of the most anti-white racist screed I've seen, does not include himself in our group. Further, note how he sees himself as part of the solution: "[...] no wonder we can't [...]." Classic case of 'otherization'.
True racism I've found you and your name is The Crack Emcee.
No doubt incidents like this gang rape in Egypt, and everything else we find distasteful in the Arab and Islamic world, are caused by Israel not immediately agreeing to a Palestinian state on terms dictated by Obama and Kerry, in exchange for no concessions from the Palestinians. At least that seems to be the view of the US foreign policy establishment.
There is a photograph out there by Mike Urban (Seattle journalist) - award winning I believe, that captures a gang sexual assault of a woman during Seattle's Mardi Gras in Pioneer Square.
http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/fmeuq/for_those_who_would_use_the_brutal_and_sustained/
There is a reason I avoid very large crowds. Too much batshit crazy, primal violence just under the surface. People do things in massive crowds due to the sense of anonymity they would never dream of doing alone.
So, if it can happen in oh so progressive Seattle....
What do you realistically expect from a culture that teaches men that women are inferior creatures with less intelligence than males but with plenty of "temptation" factor that insures that the males can claim the woman "provoked" him into action? Women in this culture are subjected to FGM to insure that these "impure" desires are nipped in the bud to preserve her modesty and honor. And younger males, poor devils, generally can't afford to marry until they are in their 30s or 40s (have to save for a house and dowry).
Obviously it was HER fault. She made them do it!
And we send money to this place!
"... a police officer with a gun in his hand, struggling against a crowd of men to extricate the victim."
Unfortunately, guns don't kill people. You have to point them and pull the trigger. Sometimes more than once.
Crack has already wondered aloud why he should care about black girls being kidnapped, raped and enslaved in real time.
As long as the kidnappers, rapists and enslavers are muslim, non-whites non-westerners.
Why would anyone think that the mass sexual assaulting of a woman in public by muslim, non-white non-westerners bother him in the slightest?
The middle eastern Muslim male has no respect for a free woman. They are seen as enemy's property to be snatched and taken as an act of war. It's in Mohammed's book.
Down with Whitey! I'm sure we can lay Egyptian misogyny at the doorstep of some combination of colonialism/racism/Republicans/Illuminati.
Egypt was originally a peaceful empire of color, where Black people lived in harmony with nature and each other. (unlike the warlike Zimbabwe who terrorized much of Africa with their jet planes) Eventually the White man showed up, conquered the peaceful Black people, raped the land and the people (which is why the people of Egypt are no longer Black), shot the nose off of ther Sphinx to hide the fact that it depicted a Black man and taught the egyptian men the evil ways of the West.
Drago,
Crack has already wondered aloud why he should care about black girls being kidnapped, raped and enslaved in real time.
As long as the kidnappers, rapists and enslavers are muslim, non-whites non-westerners."
Yeah, when you want to talk about the crimes of white AMERICANS let me know.
Oh wait - you NEVER want to talk about the crimes of Americans! Africa! Egypt! Anywhere but here!
Because - I love this - American crimes, that benefit white's pocketbooks, THEY HAVE NO ANSWER, right? Simply give the money back? IMPOSSIBLE! INCONCEIVABLE! UNIMAGINABLE!
You're fools with guns.
Please, guys, tell me about black's "bad culture" some more,...
Ironclad,
What do you realistically expect from a culture that teaches whites that blacks are inferior creatures with less intelligence than whites but with plenty of "temptation" factor that insures that the whites can claim the blacks "provoked" them into action? Blacks in this culture are subjected to white-enforced poverty to insure that these "impure" desires are nipped in the bud to preserve black's lesser stature and viability. And younger blacks, poor devils, generally can't afford marriage and children until they are in their 30s or 40s (have to avoid the government).
Obviously it is BLACKS fault. We made whites set this up!
And whites keep the money!
Gahrie,
Why don't you just say "guns" and save your breath?
How did whites get the slave trade going? It wasn't African kings affably selling blacks - it was whites with guns.
Try it on other aspects of history - then it all makes sense.
Including everyone disliking you,...
Yeah! We african-americans are helpless before white power! We have no agency, and thus must rely on guilt trips to convince the all-powerful whitey to give us rights, privileges and things!
Let's talk about those things, daddy needs a new pair of shoes! Racism!
You white devils better start coughing up, otherwise my fellow bruthas and I will enter a permanent underclass where we will constantly be victim to your white oppression! Take that!
No Crack, it's *you* who believe that blacks are inferior in every way.
If group A is capable of exploiting group B at every time, in every place, in every way, century after century, and group B has never, ever shown itself capable of overpowering group A, then group A is superior to group B.
Now, unlike you, some of us are capable of actually looking at history and recognizing that WHITE'S CONTROLLED EVERYTHING, ALWAYS is a load of cock and bull. We have plenty of examples of Asians and Africans lording it over Europeans - enough that we might say that these particular evils are part of the human condition, not simply a white one. And, as a result, that the superiority of any group is not a given thing.
But of course, you deny that. And so, in your revised world, whites are your superiors, and boy does that piss you off.
But if your determined to live out your fantasy on the bottom rung, lost in a racist ideology that blacks are incapable of any level of self-empowerment, go for it.
Appearing in a shopping mall near you in the very near future.
Global trends from your Islamic jihadist friends.
Its not just about the male rage or its sub-current of fear; its mostly about maintaining [lower class male]privilege and dominance while enforcing group identity and rules.
Party on b*4ches
How did whites get the slave trade going?
Whites didn't get the slave trade going....Muslims did. Europeans merely took advantage of the system when they later explored Africa.
And as for slavery itself, that existed in Africa long before the White man or Muslim ever showed up.
I believe I posted a few words about Islamic culture vs. Western-European-and-Christian-derived culture a few days back.
This is another instance.
The cultural mindset that derived from 1500 years of "Christendom" in Europe is incredibly from the cultural mindset that is everyday life in Egypt.
I admit: the life of women in Christendom over the past millennium and a half is often derided by modern feminists.
But I also notice that it was the influence of Christianity which encouraged warriors to protect women who were not part of their tribe/family. (See here, which is not history...but is a record of the ideals that knights aspired to.)
Maybe this contributed to the "pedestal" effect that feminists complained about over the past century.
I notice that most of the cultures of the Middle East do not foster this attitude towards women.
Instead, I see cultures in which men protect their own women, but feel that other women who are unprotected are fair game...
Talk about a rape-culture!
YoungHegelian wants to know the psychology. M. C. ButtCrack's commenting here: why doesn't he explain it? He's the only person I know who's ever publicly come out in favor of mass rape - in his case mass rape of white women by black men. He was last seen defending that policy preference just 10 posts down in the Las Vegas killings comment thread. So, ButtCrack, how about telling us what you get out of fantasizing about gang-rape? You would know the psychology better than any of us, and know it 'from the inside'.
All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, WHAT HAVE THE WHITE PEOPLE EVER DONE FOR BLACKS?
So the cop was actually fighting to HELP her, not help her attackers? IIUC, that's a change.
I've been around enough people in love with guns to know there's nothing "superior" about them but the situation.
Sorry, white guys, but that's why nobody still respects you, or the NRA, or conservatives:
You're merely history's cowards to us,...
Alexander,
"These particular evils are part of the human condition, not simply a white one."
But, but, BUT - YOU SAID YOU WERE STARTING THE NEW WORLD! All Men Are Created Equal, remember?
Now you're no different from anybody else? Then why did whites attack Obama when he said just that?
Oh yeah - because white people will lie on their own mothers, if it eventually hurts a black guy,...
Historic white America treated blacks abysmally. OK, done with that?
Created slavery, no. there's a wiki page on "History of Slavery" that's a nice summary. Slavery predates America. Predates England. Actually, pretty much predates history. It got to be such an abomination in the South of whites who needed slaves to prop up plantations and because of Africans who did all kinds of innovative an corrupt ways to supply the demand.
Done with that?
Now what sociological explanation explains why this occurs? And is it something we (the U.S.) should be trying to change? And what are the consequences of the U.S. trying to impose it's sociological constraints on another culture?
Crack, let's be honest here.
I really don't give a shit about you, and frankly, I really don't give a shit about most black people. It's nothing personal, it's just that I've got my own life to live, and spending every second of my day trying to devise how to best inflict pain and suffering and tens of millions of people whom I will never actually meet just isn't at the top of my list of things to do. The fact that you think we're all going around, plotting how to eventually 'hurt the black man' says nothing good about your state of mind and soul. Please, get some help, it's not healthy. Please understand that I have not spent a single moment of my life expending energy to hurt black people - I just don't care enough to do so.
We don't want to hurt you Crack. In fact, believe you me, if I had a time machine... well, going back and preventing a white man from buying your great, great granddaddy and shipping him to Charleston might not top the list, but it's definitely a top ten. Maybe even top five. And I'm sure I'm not alone on that.
Under present political and social circumstances, Caucasian men are prohibited from either defending themselves or counter-attacking in discussions relative to race and race-relations. All blacks know this and, quite pusilllanimously, take full advantage. Nevertheless, comparing the civil societies of Sweden and Haiti, for example, is more than sufficient.
Tarrou "I blame white people. Reparations are needed. You all should stop being so racist. There you go Crack, I got you."
I wish people would not post crack-bait. Let crack be the first to hijack the thread for his sick, deluded purposes, if he so wishes, but in the meantime stay on topic. In this case, for instance, the utterly commonplace nature of rape and other violence in the supposedly moderate Muslim nation of Egypt. (Must be the Jewwws' fault, when it isn't the Copts' fault. /sarc
Alexander,
"Crack, let's be honest here.
I really don't give a shit about you, and frankly, I really don't give a shit about most black people."
With that one sentence, you're not telling me anything about whites I don't know, and haven't said a billion times - you're just honest enough to admit it, while your brothers are shitty cowards who hide their racism behind lame defenses.
Blacks are trying to build a country while whites are being you.
That's the problem. Whites have never tried to create a country out of this - just you selfish white individuals who suck the government tit and then tell others to do different.
Make the check big guys, HUGE, like 100 Trillion Dollars, because - considering we're supposed to be countrymen on the same team - you're too shitty a people for anything less than a total financial reaming.
Keep it up and I'll try to move the proceedings to reparations, equalling total white bankruptcy, AND the requirement of a child sacrifice.
I saw in a movie that white Nazi types will do that when stressed,...
Jason,
"All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, WHAT HAVE THE WHITE PEOPLE EVER DONE FOR BLACKS?"
What did Chris Rock say?
"Niggers always want credit for doing shit they was supposed to do!"
Congrats, Jason - whites are niggers! They want credit for - finally - treating the citizens of this country like citizens of this country. And they want that credit because their fellow citizens are black - which, I hate to tell you, is racist.
Sorry, but racists don't get credit, when they throw the least a society is expected to do at me, as some kind of benevolent gift. "Fresh water"? Please, white people, you shouldn't have! (I couldn't believe you were stupid and callous enough to say that about human beings, but - white culture being the sick thing it is - there you are,…)
What? Am I supposed to think that whites are great for that list? No, I think whites are the cheapest, most inhumane, sociopathic, and psychopathic, scum this planet has ever seen - and that's backed-up by 400 years of historical fact.
And, one day - if you're exposed to human beings enough - you might mature enough to try and outgrow it.
There - that's your credit for your list.
Go brag to your friends,..
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