And Jim Salinas, "a long time Mission resident and former president of the San Francisco Latino Democratic Club," noting the sexual language in the ad, the chihuahua named "Tequila," and predicting boycotts if Alonso remained in the cast, said:
“We don’t act like that. First of all, that is not a typical Latina... First Amendment rights, we all have the right to say something. But it’s also our right to say we object to that.”If you're a member of a minority group and you speak in a setting that seems to be conveying the message — politically leveraging the message — that you are a typical member of that group, you will attract criticism, and that criticism can also be criticized.
And criticize that play too. It sucks.
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99 comments:
What in the world was she doing in "The Vagina Monologues?"
Serves her right.
Ann, do you have a "fascism" tag? This post screams for it.
Poor Alonso thought she had the right to engage in political action. fortunately Party cadres stepped in to smash her. just wait for a few years, she will be sent off to a thought purification camp. there is only one line permitted under Party rule.
And criticize that play too. It sucks.
I'm waiting for "Dinner with a Vagina."
More of that famous leftwing "tolerance".
Shutcherhole!
I'm waiting for "Dinner with a Vagina."
I think that should be "My Dinner With Vagina." You could use the same script.
Hispanic politics is hierarchical. She is a heretic for aiding a Gringo candidate.
Scott, Cunningham and Gahrie collectively nail it..
Are you now or have you ever been a member if the Tea Party?
Someone named names!
It's because teabagging has nothing to do with vaginas.
typical Latina.
Wow...a two word phrase that's outrageously both sexist and racist! I'm doubly outraged! Or outraged squared, or something.
Yup. Blacklist of actual traitors: Horrendous moral crime. But a possible Republican? "We cannot have her."
Most people, including Americans of Hispanic heritage, and certainly illegal aliens, do not want to discuss the direct cause of the "million man" migration from Mexico, etc. The Hispanic power structure certainly do not. They enjoy leverage from exploiting both legal and illegal ethnic Hispanics. It's their offering to the Democrats in order to enjoy the DNC's political, material, and social support.
She is hot.
Tsk tsk. If she were a wise Latina, she wouldn't have made that ad. Much smarter to stay on the plantation instead of risking independent thought.
Yeah. I went because my wife asked me to. If I talked like that in my workplace, I'd be fired in a heartbeat.
She must be desperate to get out of her contract to act in a play that sucks.
Alonso is an actress.
TV ads and theater shows are called "gigs." Actors get paid for appearing in them. Paychecks put food on the table.
One might legiitmately question a political philosophy that requires the suppression of dissent in order to thrive. Of course, that wouldn't occur to fascists.
As long as she had a contract, they have to pay her. You don't have a first amendment right not to pay for breaching your contract because your beliefs were offended by the person you contracted with.
"That is not a typical Latina" is a shocking statement. Does this reflect her political views? Is her vagina insufficiently Latina? Who would certify such a thing?
Blacklist!!
Eliana Lopez named names.
Here is the contact info for the Brava Theater Executive Director:
Anastacia (Stacie) Powers Cuellar
Executive Director
spowers@brava.org
Coinious nosotros.
Or something like that.
Just sent this:
Dear Ms. Cuellar
What is the role of the Brava Theater in the dismissal of Ms. Alonso from the upcoming production of the Vagina Monologues? Do you support Soviet-style totalitarianism as a routine policy or are you just trying it on? One would hope for better from the arts.
Bunch of pussies.
Tolerance and respect for free speech just oozes from the Democrats.
You just can't have diversity of opinion.
Salinas: First Amendment rights, we all have the right to say something. But it’s also our right to say we object to that/”
...and fire her because she has the right to say it?
The same folks who encouraged everybody to use an online database in order to blacklist people who signed the recall petitions are now aghast over this sort of behavior?!
F'ing hypocrites.
estamos jodidos per Google Translate.
The headline "booted out" is a lie.
She wasn't dealt with like the student Gov. Walker personally fired because the kid signed a recall petition, rather the link provided clearly states she resigned from the cast.
"First of all, that is not a typical Latina..."
Not only shocking in content, look at the grammar! That?... the relative pronoun, that? Is Maria Conchita Alonso being objectified here? Given the wording I'd say that's a definite.
Isn't being "objectified" a cardinal sin according to the holy writ of feminism?
Yeah, The Vagina Monologues sucks. As a play it is not so much performed as droned. Listening to the Vagina Monologues is like listening to concert of Tibetan throat-singing -- one long loud meaningless buzz. It's widely taught as literature by feminist members of the MLA, which is to say all of them. (One would think language and literature would be the only concern of the MLA, and one would be mistaken) This may explain the hollowness and triviality of modern American literature. TVM is also taught as polemic in Women's Studies, which explains why that particular late 20th century academic blind alley is yet another harbinger of the decline of the West.
Maybe MCA needs the money, in that case sue the fuckers. Otherwise she should consider herself blessed. Just memorizing that shit can do permanent brain damage.
None of this is surprising. What's surprising is the dear professor's evident disdain for received scripture. I'd say you're playing fast and loose with your feminist creds, Althouse.
She was booted out because they didn't like her politics.
There's a slight alliteration in vagina monologues, the v-m, both being labials.
Not as good as cunt chat though, with the dentals.
"Booted out" probably is a wrong phrase.
What is the proper term for being ejected from "the popular girls" circle?
First Amendment rights, we all have the right to say something. But it’s also our right to say we object to that>
I just watched the ad. What did she say that anybody could possibly object to? The only thing she says that could be controversial is that she doesn't like hunting.
This kind of censorship, reprisal and repression is wrong whether it's the government or a private actor. It's like people looked at East Germany and decided that it would all be ok if the Stasi were privatised.
And I hate to throw around accusations, but it's a recurring theme in our society that white people have freedom of speech, but minorities have freedom to say what they're supposed to.
[M]inorities have freedom to say what they're supposed to.
Just noticing this, are you? It's not an accusation, it's just self-evident fact. And the freedom to say what you're supposed to is SOP dogma anywhere the Left holds sway. It's been ongoing for decades in SanFran and it's about to acquire the color of law in NYC.
They carried-out a 'Scorched Vagina' policy.
It doesn't help any commenters' cases when they demonstrate so clearly THEY CANNOT READ.. Alonso was not "booted" from anything; her statements drew unwanted attention and SHE RESIGNED.
Jim Salinas? He may be a Latino but how can a man have any say in that production?
Hey MadisonFella or RealMadisonResident, pick a screen name.
Not as good as cunt chat though, with the dentals.
I always preferred the more accessible title "Cootch Talks"
Pablo Neruda wrote an ode to Stalin. Borges praised Pinochet. Guess which man won a Nobel Prize and which man was removed from consideration.
Pussy Patter is too dismissive. Not a good title.
About a year ago, Eliana Lopez fled to South America after claiming (and providing video evidence) that her husband, Sheriff Ross Merkuremi, had beat her.
He's a Democrat.
Some things are forgivable. Others not so much.
"And I hate to throw around accusations, but it's a recurring theme in our society that white people have freedom of speech, but minorities have freedom to say what they're supposed to."
The people putting on the play have freedom of speech including the freedom to put on a play with a political message acted by a cast of people who are believers in the message as they define it.
It's not a government play.
They don't have to take all comers.
I see no problem with rejecting her because of her politics. If they want to say: This is a left-wing project and choose participants who fit their standard, that's their message.
If it's a government production, then it would be different.
OpenID madisonfella said...
The headline "booted out" is a lie.
She wasn't dealt with like the student Gov. Walker personally fired because the kid signed a recall petition, rather the link provided clearly states she resigned from the cast.
Thank you for that explanation. Finally Nixon is off the hook.
[Her] statements drew unwanted attention and SHE RESIGNED.
Oh, yeah, big difference. So now I can take comfort when I read that prominent Jews like Einstein, Max Born, Fritz Haber, et al. fled Germany I'll know that the truth is their opinions drew unwanted attention and they RESIGNED.
Here's the real truth, Richard. It was either recant or be fired. So MCA took the high road and resigned.
I seem to recall a similar offer being made to Luther by the Emperor Carl V, and to Giordan Bruno by Pope Clement VIII, and to Galileo Galilei by Urban VIII
"We don’t act like that. First of all, that is not a typical Latina."
And we all know that typical is what we should strive for in life.
It's not a government play.
Not yet.
This is who they are.
"If it's a government production, then it would be different."
Coward.
One mustn't discriminate based on skin color, because that's fix and unchangeable.
OK, got it. So if a black actor wants to play MacBeth the only legit excuse not to cast him is because he's lousy in the role, and not because he makes an unconvincing 11th century Scot. Now what if a Swede wants to play Othello, and there are black actors available...
One mustn't discriminate based on sex or sexual orientation, because those are fixed and unchangeable.
Check. So why don't producers of "The Vigina Monologues" cast men? Is it because they're not women? Since when has "Macbeth" been acted exclusively by Scots? It's not like vaginas are actually speaking. Anybody with a voice can deliver those mind numbing lines. In fact if TVM has any chance of rising above banality it would be in the irony of masculine voices speaking those jejune slumber party scatologies.
However, it is perfectly OK to discriminate based on one's opinions, because one can changes one's opinions.
Now I really get it. Recant. Get your mind in sync with the Powers that Be. Don't make waves or we'll throw you out of the boat.
"And I hate to throw around accusations, but it's a recurring theme in our society that white people have freedom of speech, but minorities have freedom to say what they're supposed to."
The people putting on the play have freedom of speech including the freedom to put on a play with a political message acted by a cast of people who are believers in the message as they define it.
It's not a government play.
They don't have to take all comers.
I see no problem with rejecting her because of her politics. If they want to say: This is a left-wing project and choose participants who fit their standard, that's their message.
If it's a government production, then it would be different."
So, if the oil companies, or farmers, or loggers decided they wouldn't hire anyone who had publicly supported a democrat, you would support that?
If you think I'm wrong, you don't get freedom of association and you should think Citizens United is wrong.
I'm not being a "coward," Fen. There's no basis to say that but confusion. Smarten up and apologize.
Do you think Boy Scouts v Dale is wrong?
Freedom of association has two sides
1. The chooser gets the benefit of his choice by excluding those he thinks will be less desireable, at some cost to himself if he's wrong, but he may be a good chooser.
2. The less desireable bear the cost of exclusion.
The deal is how much benefit to the chooser and how much cost to the excluded.
If the cost is too big for the benefit, then you don't get to do it, through some legal made-up reason or other which will turn up and be made a principle.
Anyone else find it amusing that someone says she can't be in The Vagina Monologues because she used vulgar language in the ad? Isn't the V.M. pretty damned vulgar itself, in language and action?
Here's the real truth, Richard. It was either recant or be fired. So MCA took the high road and resigned.
You have absolutely no basis whatsoever to say that. All that we know that happened is, Alonso appeared in a TV commercial that the Hispanic community in general found objectionable, and as a result, Alonso resigned her role at a theater whose audience is primarily Hispanic to avoid unfairly associating the theatre company with her views. Anything beyond that - including your vague assertions of Nazism and Catholic skulduggery - are ridiculous fantasies.
But hey, nice try at spinning into this into some "Oh we poor Teabagger types don't get NO respect!" bull.
Freedom of association does not really exist in this country, if it did a photographer could refuse to shoot a homosexual marriage ceremony if it violates her conscience, or a baker refuse to bake a cake. It has been killed by the totalitarian left, along with a great many other good things.
"But hey, nice try at spinning into this into some "Oh we poor Teabagger types don't get NO respect!" bull."
Kinda undermined your point by not using "tea party" there. But you just can't do it, can you? If you actually showed even that tiny bit of respect for political opponents, it would hurt too much, wouldn't it?
There ain't no such thing as "the Hispanic community in general."
But if there were, the Alonso ad would hardly register on its objectionables index compared to being associated with "The Vagina Monologues."
Professor, haven't you championed "free speech values" over letter-of-the-law ideas about free speech being exclusively limited to discussions about government? Why isn't this one of those cases?
I might be remembering it wrong, but I thought that was the whole issue with Bob Wright. That if you believe in free speech values, you should believe in them in the private sphere as well.
I think I still fall on the side of "Exclude her if you want, but expect blowback."
Shorter Althouse: Blacklisting is fine when Progressives do it and she'll be happy to vote with them again.
I love the authoritative assertion that MCA's opinion is out of line with mainstream Hispanic thought in this country.
I wonder how much of the Mission's audience (and donors) are actually residents of the Mission and how many are actually slumming white Democrats coming downtown for the thrill?
Correction:
Mission = theatre
Quaestor, I like Mongolian Throat Singing. And Vaginas too.
"Professor, haven't you championed "free speech values" over letter-of-the-law ideas about free speech being exclusively limited to discussions about government? Why isn't this one of those cases? "
Yes, but the producers of the play are speakers and they can chose their own mouthpieces. I would not impose a casting choice on a theater group. It's a crappy play with a message that those who are staging the play have ideas about expressing. They can choose the actors who say what they, the producers, want to say, and I'll say what I think of their message, which is that it's bad art and lame philosophy.
Do you see my point?
Compare it to the Boy Scouts deciding the don't want an openly gay scoutmaster. I don't like their message, but they are a speech delivering group controlling their own message.
There isn't a Hispanic community, but there is a Mexican community. In California ethnic solidarity is a powerful political factor.
And the comment above is correct, the audience for that thing would not be the typical working class Hispanic resident of SF. It would be a bunch of college girls from SF State (with free tickets) in some of the ethnic and women's programs plus the various wannabe political players in ethnic politics putting in face time.
Well, almost everyone agrees that they "can" do this -- retaliate against Alonso because of her opinions. The tricky part is whether they "should", and whether free speech values should be (shall we say) foremost, especially for artists.
Like I said, I'm fine with it, just as I was fine with radio stations that stopped playing Dixie Chicks songs. It's a balancing of competing values. I guess I previously thought that you believed it was more important to create an environment where people could speak freely without worrying about such retaliation, and therefore shouldn't do things like this.
La actriz se permita sus labias speak volumes, y las gringas solamente le gusta "good rape."
The Tea Party: "rape rape," or something like that...
Editorially speaking, that is.
Brava, Maria!
"Alonso appeared in a TV commercial that the Hispanic community in general found objectionable . . ."
That's precious. When did "the Hispanic community in general" appoint Jim Salinas (not to mention "Richard" [Ricardo?]) to speak for it? I missed the vote.
I don't think instruments exist to measure the shallowness of this blather nor the immensity of this arrogance.
I feel for the Gagged Vagina.
CLS v. Martinez was wrong.
Why the hell did she even want to be part of "The Vagina Monologues"? I mean that has to be the ultimate in douce play.
Douche-bag play.
Ann - freedom of association also means that a white owner of a lunch counter should be able to deny a black patron. Would you be for that?
"vagina"
"jodido" or "chingado"
"Vagina Monologues" is "Idiotez labial"
The Left is a Harsh Mistress
Alex:
Duly passed laws of the United States protect suspect classifications (race, religion, ethinicity, national origin, etc.) from discrimination. Political points of view have no protections under the law.
If the directors fired her because her views were different from their own - no problem.
If the directors fired her because, as a woman, she had views that the directors could not countenance from a woman - potential problem. (Ditto ethnicity.)
Or something...
Because as everybody knows the Left hates McCarthyism. And hypocrisy. Except when they're the ones doing it....
"a TV commercial that the Hispanic community in general found objectionable"
Did they vote on it? What if the "Hispanic community" were given a chance to vote on whether "The Vagina Monologues" is objectionable?
"Well, almost everyone agrees that they "can" do this -- retaliate against Alonso because of her opinions. The tricky part is whether they "should", and whether free speech values should be (shall we say) foremost, especially for artists."
Yeah, I agree, but we're already dealing with the subset of show business where they put on that play "The Vagina Monologues." They're in a politicized and stupid rut, so they might as well act like what they are. It helps people see it from a distance and save their time and money by avoiding it like the claptrap it is.
Pun intended!
"Freedom of association has two sides 1. The chooser gets the benefit of his choice by excluding those he thinks will be less desireable, at some cost to himself if he's wrong, but he may be a good chooser. 2. The less desireable bear the cost of exclusion…."
You're missing the third side!
Everyone else gets information relevant to their decisions whether to enter into or otherwise interact with that group.
And those currently in the group can decide to change it or leave, as happened with the Boy Scouts.
It's a continuous dynamic with many moving parts that are going to keep moving. It's a marketplace, with an onrush of choices and everything affects everything else.
And let's remember that Maria Conchita Alonso was a free woman who chose to appear in an ad embodying a stereotype of a Latina that some people found offensive. She chattered in a light-headed, over-feminine way. She made references to sex. And she clutched a chihuahua. She's also a Cuban-American, not a Mexican-American and so she's actually in a small demographic group for California. I can see how some people would dislike her for that quite aside from their antagonism for right-wing politicians.
"Ann - freedom of association also means that a white owner of a lunch counter should be able to deny a black patron. Would you be for that?"
Running a lunch counter isn't enough about speaking to overcome the interest in equal access. Now, if it were an art performance staged at a lunch counter and the producer wanted an all white cast because his artistic vision was for a story about some white people, the producer could reject the black actors who auditioned and the state could not require an integrated cast.
Do you have any more easy legal questions?
how does this square with all those leftists who are still telling me about the horrors of screenwriters being blacklisted in the '50s? looks like the same thing to me, and this kind of hypocrisy is something we should never stop pointing out.
It is not a question of either "free speech" or "discrimination." Just some silly people making themselves look even sillier by calling attention to the ad (also counter-productive) and making prissy statements about Alonso.
And making a political ad for the other party is not comparable to the Boy Scouts - and boy scout parents - not wanting gay men around their little dumplings.
, and this kind of hypocrisy is something we should never stop pointing out.
Word.
Professor. Would it be appropriate for the theatre group to dismiss a ticket taker for having an opinion different from the intended purpose of the play? The guy working the bar at intermission?
"She chattered in a light-headed, over-feminine way. She made references to sex. And she clutched a chihuahua. She's also a Cuban-American, not a Mexican-American and so she's actually in a small demographic group for California. "
You know damn well had it been an ad for Dianne Feinstein, it would have been rationalized as 'brave comedy' or something like that. Really.
"Do you have any more easy legal questions?"
Oh, so smart, you.
Ann - your theoretical about an all-white cast was amusing to say the least. If that actually happened, there would be holy hell to pay in the courts. But keep being amusing.
"The people putting on the play have freedom of speech including the freedom to put on a play with a political message acted by a cast of people who are believers in the message as they define it."
Are there plays that don't have some kind of political message?
I could see if you said, "Her political message is not in line with the political message of our play."
But what did she say that wasn't contrary to the message in the VM?
"That was" not wasn't.
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