ADDED: The link above goes to an NPR item — "Does Disney's Tonto Reinforce Stereotypes Or Overcome Them?" — and after posting, I decided to check out the reviews for "The Lone Ranger." They're terrible.
How/why/wherefore did it turn out this way? The evidence suggests a combination of hubris, errant revisionism, a misguided and perverse degree of violence, and a script that never worked in the first place.ALSO: From the sidebar at NPR's "Tonto" article, from just a few days ago, "Can 'Devious Maids' Really Break Stereotypes About Latinas?" ("Thankfully, the maids themselves aren't stereotypes. But there are no Latina bosses here.") From yesterday: "How A Minority Biking Group Raises The Profile Of Cycling." ("It was very powerful to have a group, like 60 or 70 riders who were all black rolling through a predominately black community on a bike.") And, also from yesterday: "The Secret History Of The Word 'Cracker.'" ("For many Southern whites, though, cracker has remained uncomplicated, a source of cultural pride.")
NPR means well, I'm pretty sure, as it talks and talks about race from an upper-middle-class white perspective. That's how it looks to me, anyway.
पोस्ट्स
१५९ टिप्पण्या:
Also, what the fuck?
What is a white guy, no matter how correct politically, doing playing Tonto? Even Jay Silverheels was an actual Indian. Why the pass, Leftists? Why aren't your heads exploding? Wrong people? (Depp is a good man of the Left.) Wrong milieu? (Hollywood is one of you, isn't it?)
If anything proves the totally facile and shallow beliefs of the Left it is tolerating this type of crap from your own. Stop lecturing the rest of us.
Tonto's makeup was inspired by a Kirby Sattler painting
http://jungletrader.blogspot.com/2013/06/kirby-sattler.html
You think the left is going to be upset about Depp PLAYING an Indian when they had no problem with Granny Warren CLAIMING TO BE an indian?
Tonto means stupid or dumb in spanish.
So ...Tonto....being insulted, appropriately mumbles something like "Que no sabe". to the Lone Ranger. In effect telling him that he doesn't know anything. Calling the Lone Ranger el stupido.
Unfortunately the Lone Ranger doesn't understand Spanish and it gets lost in translation to Kemosabe. So Tonto gets to insult the Lone Ranger and the dumb ass-gringo doesn't know it.
At least that was the joke in my household when I was watching the show on black and white television.
I’ll be skipping this one as well. The Lone Ranger was a favorite of mine as a child and I’ll have to content myself with watching reruns of the old television series.
UMCWhite perspective? Sounds like NPR to me!
I can see the Native Americans organizing for protests now.
Ha!
"That's how it looks to me, anyway."
What do you mean "to you", upper-middle-class white kemosabe lady?
Lefists really aren't giving Depp a pass here, Strelnikov.
FWIW, that pull quote is mind-bogglingly stupid. See one movie and you assume all native americans are 'like that'. What about the next movie you see with a different portrayal? They'll all change with every movie?
Where's that silver bullet when you need it?
This movie was a dumb idea from the start. Unless they were going to do it entirely slapstick, go even further with the camp than the original had ever dreamed of going.
*Then* we would have had something worth watching.
Depp playing an Indian as offensive? It was always a stupid idea, but whatever. I've seen much stupider, and I'm sure I will again.
In Tanzania, the young Masai male will wear a headdress like that. It signals his transition from a boy to a man. They paint their faces as well.
I've only seen the previews for Lone Ranger (my kids sure want to see it), but I thought it was kind of refreshing to see Johnny Depp portraying Tonto as a kind of gothic freak. The alternative would be even weirder, a baroque Hollywood extravaganza, populated with manic scene-destroyers, except for the Native American character who would be really really really authentic. Oh! The sincerity!
Anyway, a movie that I think struck the right tone was Shanghai Noon. The Native American characters are as silly and slapstick as Jackie Chan's and Owen Wilson's and, like them, carry it off just fine.
And Jango Fett was supposedly a setback for Latinos everyone. Yet if you cast all lily-white actors for your movies, the very same crowd bitches...setting bitches back, one would think.
Starbuck as a woman was offensive. Boomer as an ASIAN woman, not a black man was offensive.
But nobody cares what a white guy thinks.
Me: Hey Johnny, you've got a crow on your head!
Depp: Yes, and if you weren't a benighted hillbilly you would understand it's my way of showing respect for and communion with the deep animistic Native American culture you, you...bigot.
Me: Are those white streaks down your face what I think they are?
Depp: The crow is dead, ignoramus!
Mew: Hey Johnny, you've got a dead crow on your head.
This is just more anti-American agitprop aimed at its real target audience, the Chinese.
I've noticed this "Code Switch" page on NPR's web site. It just reeks of tokenism. They seem to have one of each minority on the team. They all write condescending shit. I know my opinions don't count because I am an elderly white male. FWIW though, I'm tired of all this condescension, "teachable moments" and so on.
Last time the Republicans could not talk about the economy intelligently so they turned to their tired old bigotry. This time the Democrats are doing it. The media love this shit because math is too hard for them. Instead of talking about how subsidies drive UP the cost of higher education and medicine, instead of talking about how we continue to amass unfunded liabilities, all of them, left and right, would rather gin up fights about social issues.
As a commentator said yesterday, Nuke 'em all and let Gaia sort it out.
Nothing sadder than a bunch of upper middle class white people being hoisted upon their sad boomer ideals and ideological commitments.
They don't read Marx, they read Dewey, and if you elect someone to the Left of Obama they'll probably still go along
with it
Good production values, fact checking and reporting however. Non 60's boomer enviro/feminist/equality/multiculti sorts could learn a lesson.
Has anyone broached the obvious question as to why Armie Hammer got the lead?
LOL
I think we all know what that's about.
Come to think of it, old Armand Hammers Soviet Petro-bucks helped to fund Al Gores education as well!
NPR's headquarters and main studios are in Fairfax, Virginia. Although a little less white than the state whole, it has twice as many asians as black people. And it's rich. Anything that's gritty and urban happens someplace else.
Strelnikov: "Why the pass, Leftists? Why aren't your heads exploding? Wrong people?"
Fen's Law.
Heard this on the radio..
The only good thing about the movie is they won't make a sequel
Don't count on it
The bad reviews may be due to the critics' disappointment with the weakness of the homosexual undertones in the Tonto/Lone Ranger relationship.
Tonto no think this offensive. Heap good publicity for red man. Eagle go fly, buffalo pee in forest.
You see the get-up and you know it's a bad idea.
And making Tonto the main character?
Why call it the Lone Ranger?
As for images of Indians and other ethnics in subservience*, nobody does it better than the Lefties.
Look at Congress; all the top Demo positions are white and male.
And we weren't supposed to have a half-white POTUS, either.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
Tonto means stupid or dumb in spanish.
The Lone Ranger began as a local show in Detroit and its creator, Fran Striker, made Tonto a Potawatomie, not a tribe indigenous to the West, but the origin of the name is not nebulous, it means "wise one".
Of course there is a clan of the Apache called Tonto.
(have I got it wrong here, too?)
*FWIW Tonto is a pretty hip Indian. Although he speaks pidgin English, he moves as easily in the white man's world as he does among Indians and, of course, John Reid would have never left Bryant's Gap if it weren't for him.
Speaking of buffalo and Indian: watch this.
RGIII is glad that Johnny Depp has taken the Native American stereotyping off him for a few days.
Naming an Indian boy after a city in Canada is stupid.
gotta love the billionaire commie Hammer family. apparently their needs are great.
Why are we paying so many taxpayer dollars if this BS is all we get for it? If NPR had a clue, it would be the first clue they've had in years.
Based only on the trailers I've seen so far, I'd have to say that Clayton Moore dead thirteen years would be a more animated actor than Armie Hammer.
Does that mean by implication that this same population of mindless saps also believe that all pirates behave like Captain Jack Sparrow, or do we only avoid critical thinking with respect to groups of people with contemporary analogs?
I have not seen the movie, just the trailer, but the bird on Tonto's head is lol funny (as I think it was intended to be.) Is it PC? Well, no, but it makes fun of the stereotype, which is one way to deflate it. Just not the way the PC elite endorses.
I always felt that Tonto was the best part of the Lone Ranger tv series, Jay Silverheels was actually one of the first to get to break the Indian stereotypes. He played the role with dignity and gravitas. Plus he did not pork up over the years like the Lone Ranger did.
Depp has enough pc cred to survive this. Plus I doubt he really gives a shit.
I knew a man, an Injun, no... a Blackfoot, who scalped hippies and guilty white liberals just as easily as he would any stagecoach Johnny or Army man.
He could look at cougar shit, tell you if she was pregnant, her age, and where she probably was now.
He's quit drinking but he's on the night shift at the Redhawk Downs table number 4 after he got passed over at Harvard for Elizabeth Warren.
This is all fine, well and good but what bothers me is the fact that the guy who played Superman on TV in the 50s did acid in the 60s and jumped out a window to his death because he thought he could fly.
"Guy on a Buffalo."
That alone makes this entire post worthwhile.
I'm thinking Johnny Depp would have made a great Jar-Jar Binks.
Unless they were going to do it entirely slapstick, go even further with the camp than the original had ever dreamed of going.
OMG you have not seen slapstick Lone Ranger until you have watched it dubbed in Japanese. I used to get off work at 3am when I lived in SF and would watch the Japanese dubbed original versions of the Lone Ranger. It was freaking hilarious. Of course at 3 am and winding down the work night with a drink or other recreational substance, pretty much everything is funny.
All the voices sounded very gruff and angry in Japanese. Everyone was so excitable when dubbed in Japanese.
The highlight was the Lone Ranger rearing up on his horse and shouting. Hi Yo Siver-san....dozuo!!! The Japanese Lone Ranger was very polite to his horse.
Johnny Depp as an Indian in whiteface with a dead crow on his head can't possibly be as amusing.
"What do you mean "to you", upper-middle-class white kemosabe lady?"
As I said recently, "I do regret not having a tag for commenter thinks he's making the joke that I already made.
Since "Indian Giver" is now considered politically incorrect, I just use the term "Native American Giver".
Douzo.
I meant
Gomen nasai
As a kid, I thought the Lone Ranger was as dumb and pointless as Superman and Zorro.
What upsets me even more is that Lucas didn't use a real Jedi to portray Darth Vader and, on top of that, gussied him up in a silly costume (and compounded this with Darth Maul, thus portraying all dark Jedi as some sort of freaks, setting back stereotypes for a long time.)
Upper Middle Class (white) people talk about race, it seems to me, so they can show how highly evolved they are, how they (supposedly) understand the issues even as they harbor racist ideas.
I think this especially true wrt to people like Paula Deen. How dare she talk like that! I must condemn her for thoughts I'm often thinking because they are wrong!
Bad reviews do not dissuade me from seeing a movie like TLR. Having to see it in a movie theater does, however.
Rabel said:
The bad reviews may be due to the critics' disappointment with the weakness of the homosexual undertones in the Tonto/Lone Ranger relationship.
I was gonna ask if Depp played Tonto as gay! He told David Letterman that he played all his characters gay! He might have been joking, but Captain Jack certainly had a flamboyant flair!
NPR means well, I'm pretty sure, as it talks and talks about race from an upper-middle-class white perspective.
Now that does sound familiar! We call it catharsis here!
How does Professor Geiogamah square his criticism of Depp with his involvement in this?
We saw the Lone Ranger trailer on the big screen. It all goes boom and than boom again. There sure was a lot of gasoline bombs in thee old west.
The modern Tonto is honored as a shaman type Indian . Not an Unkiss like noble Mohican chief out of the first great American literature days by James Fenimore Cooper. Shaman Indians are more the new heroes in todays Harry Potter loving culture.
But silver bullets were always a Dracula like motif from the Radio Days of Lone Ranger who was sort of a magic cowboy.
R.A. Crankbait said...
I'm thinking Johnny Depp would have made a great Jar-Jar Binks.
Funny you mention that.
I was just wondering if this is how Disney is going to do "Star Wars".
There was a recent comic book reboot of the Lone Ranger character (by independent publisher Dynamite Entertainment) that would have made for a decent movie. They play it more or less as a straight western.
The Ranger's basic "origin story" is pretty compelling, and a good creative team can make almost any concept work if they're willing to take it seriously and treat it with respect. Hollywood seldom takes this approach.
jacksonjay said...
I was gonna ask if Depp played Tonto as gay! He told David Letterman that he played all his characters gay! He might have been joking, but Captain Jack certainly had a flamboyant flair!
Only because he had gone insane in the sun.
Does this mean Johnny agrees with Freud and thinks homosexuality is a mental condition?
Dust Bunny Queen said...
Tonto means stupid or dumb in spanish.
I thought that was stupido.
"NPR means well, I'm pretty sure, as it talks and talks about race from an upper-middle-class white perspective."
About race? They talk about every damn thing from that perspective, not just race. Like the BBC sets the standard for "Queen's English", NPR sets the standard for WASP tonal condescension.
Rabel said...
The bad reviews may be due to the critics' disappointment with the weakness of the homosexual undertones in the Tonto/Lone Ranger relationship.
Well, if that relationship goes south, at least The Lone Ranger has Silver to fall back on.
"As I said recently, "I do regret not having a tag for commenter thinks he's making the joke that I already made."
I also regret making that comment, because I know Meade knows I was making the joke and he was riffing on it and adding something, and I don't mean to deter that sort of thing.
Tibore said...
"NPR means well, I'm pretty sure, as it talks and talks about race from an upper-middle-class white perspective."
About race? They talk about every damn thing from that perspective, not just race. Like the BBC sets the standard for "Queen's English", NPR sets the standard for WASP tonal condescension.
NPR is Shit White People Like.
Come on people. Forty-six comments on Indian actors and nobody'e posted this!
Strelnikov said...
Also, what the fuck?
What is a white guy, no matter how correct politically, doing playing Tonto?
Depp is native american.
DBQ said "said...
Tonto means stupid or dumb in spanish.
So ...Tonto....being insulted, appropriately mumbles something like "Que no sabe". to the Lone Ranger. In effect telling him that he doesn't know anything. Calling the Lone Ranger el stupido.
Tonto gets some love from a lot of people. Lyle Lovett's "If I Had a Boat" contains the following verse:
"The mystery masked man was smart
He got himself a Tonto
'Cause Tonto did the dirty work for free
But Tonto he was smarter
And one day said kemo sabe
Kiss my ass I bought a boat
I'm going out to sea"
I have no idea what the hell the song means, but that line is an easy applause getter for LL and his LB
you can see it here in mid song<>
That was pretty good, Rabel.
As for Crackers, we always were told they were originally the name for white ox drivers on the dirt trails into the frontier of Northeast Georgia with darkest northwest Georgia and Alabama. They were wilderness bear hunters and traders with the Indians, mostly Scots-Irish, such as Davy Crockett.
These crackers were poor blue collar men who had no slaves. Slaves were capital investments of the rich cotton planters being a human workforce that came from British Barbados sugar Islands to found Charleston and then extended slavery codes around the coasts and inland on rivers as far as East Texas. Slaves were big business financed in New York City for import at a great profit by Bostonian and other New England merchants.
Atlanta Crackers were a winning Southern Association baseball team owned by Earl Mann and run as the business it was by a General Manager and Traveling Secretary named Jasper Donaldson. He would leave us box seat tickets on demand since he was my father's uncle.
Depp is native american.
Who isn't?
"NPR means well, I'm pretty sure, as it talks and talks about race from an upper-middle-class white perspective. That's how it looks to me, anyway."
You mean llike having to check the Urban Dictionary every time a black American speaks? Can't be:
That must be "an lower-middle-class white perspective" at work.
Not that I've ever met any lower-middle-class whites who needed to do it,...
The Ed Ames mishap on Johnny Carson is the best moment in TV history!
At Fandango, fans say I'm In, critics say No, tweets 74% positive. At Rotten Tomatoes, 23% on the Tomatometer but 97% of audience want to see.
And we're all going to see this movie, right?
ooops Lyle Lovett link here . . .
Here
Ladies of fashion say 'so whaaaaats the problem? It's cute'
Strelnikov wrote:
What is a white guy, no matter how correct politically, doing playing Tonto?
White guys can play Indians. Blacks can play Jews and Asians (sometimes in the same movie). But white guys can't portray black guys.
Depp is native american.
Only insofar as half the First Families of Virginia are "native american" because of the Rolfes. I mean seriously, check this out - 1/2048 Powhatan!
And 3/2048 African so he easily could play the role of Obama, if/when, a movie is made.
And we're all going to see this movie, right?
On Netflix probably, but only because Johnny Depp can make even a piece of shit like Dark Shadows marginally watchable.
I'm guessing the Tonto character is "sassy" and more clever than TLR. That's how you appease the PC crowd.
DBQ said . . . Tonto means stupid or dumb in spanish.
So ...Tonto....being insulted, appropriately mumbles something like "Que no sabe". to the Lone Ranger. In effect telling him that he doesn't know anything. Calling the Lone Ranger el stupido.
Unfortunately the Lone Ranger doesn't understand Spanish and it gets lost in translation to Kemosabe. So Tonto gets to insult the Lone Ranger and the dumb ass-gringo doesn't know it.
Tonto gets a lot of love from people these days. Lyle Lovett's song "If I Had a Pony" contains this verse:
"The mystery masked man was smart
He got himself a Tonto
'Cause Tonto did the dirty work for free
But Tonto he was smarter
And one day said kemo sabe
Kiss my ass I bought a boat
I'm going out to sea"
I have no idea what the song means, but it's an easy applause line for him.
It's in this video
NPR means well, I'm pretty sure, as it talks and talks about race from an upper-middle-class white perspective.
In other words...
'I'm not going to be scrambling jets to get a liberal propaganda machine that I pretty much agree with anyways.'
Althouse wrote:
NPR means well, I'm pretty sure, as it talks and talks about race from an upper-middle-class white perspective.
Race this, race that, talk, talk, talk. They're very good at that, aren't they, that upper-middle-class Columbia-educated mostly female NPR commentariat? Talk, talk, talk. The national dialogue on race races on. Talk, talk, talk. They've been talking since... when, pick a date... since Diane Rehm got a facelift? No, way before that. Whatever, a long time ago, and they still talk, talk, talk.
This talk, talk, talk is the practical effect of feminism. That's what women like to do, isn't it? Talk. Talk about your day. Talk about your feelings. Talk about your relationships. Women are very good at talking themselves (and their menfolk who are obliged to listen) into crisis. NPR is feminist-dominated, ergo TALK.
They talk more about race at NPR than those wee hours of the morning radio dudes talk about UFOs.
Talking about race is like talking about alien abduction. If people didn't talk about it it wouldn't be a problem.
Tonto gets a lot of love from people these days.
"Doctor say, you must die, Kemosabe"
Ironically, it is NPR which is guilty of perpetuating the stereotype of an "American Indian". Some Indians were left-wing ideologues. They were imperialistic, murdered, raped, and enslaved other Indians. Others even practiced post-birth abortions (i.e. sacrifice), typically for money, welfare, or convenience; or to receive favor from their "gods." They even committed acts of mass murder or genocide against competing interests and tribes. I wonder which stereotype NPR would prefer to propagate.
Anyway, the myth of the "American Indian" is disassembled when we recognize the sins and dignity of each tribe, of each man and woman, individually.
"How A Minority Biking Group Raises The Profile Of Cycling." ("It was very powerful to have a group, like 60 or 70 riders who were all black rolling through a predominately black community on a bike.")"
There is an all Black biking group near my house, and I see them riding in a very large group all the time nearby. It may be racist, but it gives me a good feeling, until I think: "what if I wanted to join them?" And then, I don't feel good about it, so I have stopped thinking about that part.
Now, I'm just thankful to see Blacks enjoying something that doesn't threaten me or purposefully exclude me. Bliss.
My little town hosts a yearly cycling event that's a feature event on the national pro-am circuit. The riders filter in a few days before and many of them tour around the streets and neighborhoods -- keeping in shape testing their equipment. It's not unusual to see several dozen clustered loosely along the lanes. A bunch of white people on bikes is of no significance other than it's race week, so why is a bunch of non-whites on bikes significant?
Whenever someone uses the terms like raising awareness or raising the profile of whatever my eyes glaze over.
bagoh20,
There is an all Black biking group near my house, and I see them riding in a very large group all the time nearby.
Shhh - that shit's unusual, man.
You know niggas don't swim, either, right? (wink)
One thing I love about the original Lone Ranger (I watch it with my kids) is how bloodthirsty Tonto is:
Tonto: These men are very bad. We should shoot them now, Kemosabe.
LR: No, No, Tonto, you ignorant savage! We white men are better than that. These men are merely misguided! I shall reason with them and they will turn themselves in and cease (despoiling women/stealing ranches/taking over middle eastern countries and beheading them.)
Then, the Lone Ranger tries things his way, and the bad guys nearly kill him, at which point Tonto shoots.
Cowboy diplomacy originated with Tonto. If the LR had let him lead the way, the episodes would have been a lot shorter, though.....
Where are all the outraged pirates?
Maybe they have to talk and talk and talk about it because that is the only way they know how to get people interested in observing it as a soul saving grace or something transformational like that.
"Typical observers of [Big Mountain Jesus] are more interested in giving it a high five or adorning it in ski gear than sitting before it in prayer."
If you want people to worship something you have to keep reminding them to do it all the time.
You know, when you see photos of someone robbing a bank or a convenience store, they never have on a Lone Ranger mask.
"...you might think only skinny, good-looking, white people ride bikes"
I bet a lot more Asians ride bikes than white people. And they're skinnier too.
Hey! The Crack is back!
Ok, from Wiki --
While details differ, the basic story of the origin of the Lone Ranger is the same in most versions of the franchise.[8] A posse of six members of the Texas Ranger Division is ambushed by a band of outlaws led by Bartholomew[citation needed] "Butch" Cavendish. Later, an Indian named Tonto stumbles onto the scene and recognizes the lone survivor as the man who saved his life as a boy. When Tonto left the Reid place with a horse given him by the boy Reid, he gave Reid a ring and the name Kemo Sabe, which he said means "trusty scout."[14] He nurses the man, whom the radio show eventually established as being named John Reid, back to health. Among the Rangers killed was Reid's older brother, Captain Daniel Reid, who was a captain in the Texas Rangers. Tonto fashions a black domino mask, using material from Reid's vest, to conceal Reid's identity. After the Cavendish gang is brought to justice, Reid continues to fight evil and crime under the alias of the Lone Ranger.
The mask was Tonto's idea. How many of you knew that?
My wife and I were talking about this a few weeks ago about how long it would be before some Indian grievance group started complaining about Depp's portrayal of Tonto. This movie has been promoted the hell out of for the past few months and yet they waited until the day before the opening to voice their displeasure?
Interesting timing, as usual.
Deirdre, were you sampling the hard lemonade when you wrote that?
Rabel said...
Come on people. Forty-six comments on Indian actors and nobody'e posted this!
Ed Ames was/is Jewish.
jacksonjay said...
The Ed Ames mishap on Johnny Carson is the best moment in TV history!
It was live (I was watching) and Carson's comeback, "It's frontier briss", was the topper.
I'm just thankful to see Blacks enjoying something that doesn't threaten me or purposefully exclude me. Bliss.
Not meaning to get on your case, bagoh20, but why should it bother you if a group of blacks should enjoy something that purposely excludes you? One of the joys of freedom of association is the ability to pick you friends, to chum around with like-minded fellows, the sympatico... You shouldn't be offended or threatened, you might even consider yourself privileged to be on the Outside rather than the Inside.
Consider the Shriners, that's a pretty exclusive group, I believe. I think to be a Shriner one must first be a Mason of some exalted degree, and then be invited to join. Then you get to wear an absurd hat and drive an equally absurd miniature car in a unit of identical absurdities performing pointless maneuvers and meaningless stunts. I don't feel slighted or threatened by their exclusivity. I feel something altogether different -- relief.
I liked the Lone Ranger, but I was a bigger fan of the Cisco Kid. They had some nice horses. Plus they were dressed to the nines! When they rode off across the desert, they were going about 95 miles an hour!
Once I moved to the country, I had to buy a horse, then I was all of those people, however, it was quite a few years before I bought a saddle, so I was kinda more Indian than Tonto, who sat in a rig.
I thought that the Tonto character design was ridiculous but they were obviously aiming for "over the top" across the board (judging by the trailers) with the heroes and villains and everyone portrayed equally loudly.
What little I've heard about it the idea was that Tonto is given the more central part and likely in measure because of an Historic understanding that the traditional role was demeaning.
The Green Hornet movie (which sucked) did the same thing with Kato's character, turning him into a clearly super-hero-ish person and contrasting the Green Hornet as a dufus. Some of the snark getting Kato's own back for former indignities, there, was actually rather clever and the best part of the show. The people I watched it with apparently didn't get the jokes, though, and thought it was just awful.
The Lone Ranger and Tonto are venerable comic strip characters and have nothing to do with American Indians.
Johnny Depp is a very silly man, and while he may have established a new identity for the Lone Ranger and Tonto (I hope not), this freakish get-up is more of an insult to the Indians, since he seems to claim it is supposed to have something to do with reality.
AllenS said...
I liked the Lone Ranger, but I was a bigger fan of the Cisco Kid. They had some nice horses. Plus they were dressed to the nines! When they rode off across the desert, they were going about 95 miles an hour!
Duncan Renaldo's black and white overo was one of the most distinctive horses in movies.
I'd love to know if it was the same one Chuck Heston rode in "The Big Country".
Synova said...
I thought that the Tonto character design was ridiculous but they were obviously aiming for "over the top" across the board (judging by the trailers) with the heroes and villains and everyone portrayed equally loudly
Some writer said Disney just wanted to give Johnny Depp another chance "to get his freak on".
A very apt turn of phrase.
"Not meaning to get on your case, bagoh20, but why should it bother you if a group of blacks should enjoy something that purposely excludes you?"
I wonder at the people who complain when it's not even something they would do, but there is always a bit of a twinge when you think that you might *like* to join in with and then realize that you wouldn't be welcome.
Though I do think that people tend to assume that they are unwelcome, sometimes. And I do think that exclusivity does equal prejudice for whatever the standard is to exclude. And a lot of groups have membership requirements for any number of different reasons.
The Sons of Norway likely contains Norwegians. I don't think that being *for* your group is racist.
It depends on the purpose of the group I suppose. If the black bikers are like the Sons of Norway and primarily *about* culture and traditions then who's to fuss?
But a white motorcycle group that was on-purpose a white motorcycle group would be assumed to be about motorcycles and disliking black people. Why can't the same assumption be made for any other group?
traditionalguy said...
As for Crackers, we always were told they were originally the name for white ox drivers on the dirt trails into the frontier of Northeast Georgia with darkest northwest Georgia and Alabama. They were wilderness bear hunters and traders with the Indians, mostly Scots-Irish, such as Davy Crockett.
These crackers were poor blue collar men who had no slaves. Slaves were capital investments of the rich cotton planters being a human workforce that came from British Barbados sugar Islands to found Charleston and then extended slavery codes around the coasts and inland on rivers as far as East Texas. Slaves were big business financed in New York City for import at a great profit by Bostonian and other New England merchants.
Atlanta Crackers were a winning Southern Association baseball team owned by Earl Mann and run as the business it was by a General Manager and Traveling Secretary named Jasper Donaldson. He would leave us box seat tickets on demand since he was my father's uncle.
So Democrat KKK'ers were the 1% back in the day and today. The gravy train continues. They still have their Democrat voting bloc slaves; blacks, latinos, npr listeners.
I wonder what would happen if Guy on a Buffalo met Honey Badger. Would it be as kindred spirits meeting up at last and forming an invincible team, or would it be like matter and antimatter exploding to non existence? Would it be as two ships passing in the night? Would the Honey Badger bust a move on the buffalo?
That looked like a bison to me, actually, but I'm trying not to be nitpicky about these things.
In order to discourage illegal immigration, the Commanches used to torture the children of settlers to death before the eyes of their parents. I think a scene like that would be interesting to see. Not every actor could play the scene sympathetically, but Johnny Depp is not every actor.
This Tinseltown obsession with comic book material is really depressing. It's been going on for quite awhile, and it just seems to get worse and worse. To be fair one must admit that comics and pulp fiction have been fount of material for the film industry since at least the 1930's, but it was B-grade stuff aimed at children. The heroes were heroic, the bad guys were not.
Today the comic book movie is just a gawdawful bore -- C grade writing backed by insane amounts of cash, which is used to pad out the weak as water plots with obnoxious CGI effects which do nothing but insult the intelligence. The last one I saw was Iron Man, which most reviewers found acceptable. Not me. I fell asleep. Dr. Girlfriend punched me quite firmly in the shoulder because I was snoring! The only other movie that caused such a narcoleptic reaction in me was Dune. I haven't bothered with the sequels.
Maybe it's my fault. I've gone through life being mostly repelled by what I've been offered as culture. As a kid I tried to like comic books. All my friends did, so I tried to fit in and enjoy, but it didn't take. The war comics like Sgt. Rock and the Haunted Tank had some brief appeal, but that didn't last. (Popular music didn't win me, either, but that's OT) So now I am faced with the entertainments that bored me as a child coming back with a vengeance to bore me as an adult. Shit...
Would it be as two ships passing in the night?
If the ships are at 900ft below the surface they cant tell if its day or night... unless they have a trusty clock that never goes down.
Oh hey! Hi, Crack. Good to see you alive and kicking. :)
William said...
In order to discourage illegal immigration, the Commanches used to torture the children of settlers to death before the eyes of their parents. I think a scene like that would be interesting to see. Not every actor could play the scene sympathetically, but Johnny Depp is not every actor.
Keep in mind, the Comanches were illegal immigrants themselves, having come down from the Wind River around 1700.
If you mean bashing the heads of babies and toddlers against the cabin wall or impaling them on a mesquite bush, remember most of the rest of the family wouldn't survive, either. Maybe a couple of older children or a woman of child-bearing age might be spared (the stories of Clarissa Plummer and Cynthia Ann Parker are emblematic), but they weren't left at the scene to tell the tale to Ben McCulloch or Ranald Mackenzie.
As for heart-rending scenes, "The Searchers" has a few good ones.
PS Everything wrong there, too?
The kicker is that the crow in the painting is not on the Indian's head, but flying behind him.
Depp misinterpreted this (he laughs about it) so the character's dead bird on the head is misplaced.
There has been a long history of Indian sidekicks in American entertainment history.
Natty Bumppo and Chingachgook.
Daniel Boone and Mingo.
Harold and Kumar.
So the idea of a faithful Indian companion is a time honored motif in American Entertainment.
The problem is that they want to have their cake and eat it too. The Lone Ranger should be over the top and that is what this movie seems to be driving at as far as the trailer goes. They want to use Depp as he was used in the "Pirates" movies. And failed miserably.
The Cisco Kid was awesome but i liked Lash Larue. I think he was a loner, no sidekick. Not that I didnt like Pancho
If you want to read an excellent book about the conflicts on the frontier between the cowboys and the Indians I would heartily recommend
"Empire of the Summer Moon" by SC Gwynne which is the history of the conflict between the Comanche Nation and the Texas settlers with a big part played by the Texas Rangers.
They would laugh, saying, "oh, Pancho!" "oh, Ceeesco!", before galloping off, while laughing.
Doesn't get much better than that.
Looks more like Toronto than Tonto. I don't think the movie would be my cup of tea, but from the preview I saw today in the theater I'm guessing it will make money no matter how bad the script might be.
Johnny Depp isn't playing an Indian. He's playing Johnny Depp playing a Hollywood Indian stereotype. Totally different thing having nothing to do with actual Indians.
Also, I read somewhere that Depp had some Indian heritage. Maybe the same fictional heritage as Fauxcahontas or the little eichmann maybe not.
I enjoy listening to NPR, because their pieces are longer and more in-depth than other radio stations and the tone is soothing and quiescent. But whenever I'm tempted to think they know better than me about something or have a superior moral perspective I just sit back and wait for the howlers which are sure to appear before long. The latest was in last night's Fresh Air (I think it was) where Terry Gross pronounced Alsace with the second syllable sounding like Spanish 'seis' 6. You would think that someone who I'm sure enjoys her Riesling would have gotten that right.
Johnny Depp playing Johnny Depp is getting a little old IMAO.
NPR is reducing Indians to a one dimensional stereotype. Indians are not all noble warriors with flowing hair silhouetted against the setting sun symbolizing the last of a great spiritual culture. Like in Dances With Wolves. Sometimes Indians like to cut a bitch. Or take the top off a mountain. For profit.
Or bore the shit out of everyone by constantly mugging and grinning and wearing way too much guyliner while playing idealized versions of themselves in movies
Baron Zemo said...
If you want to read an excellent book about the conflicts on the frontier between the cowboys and the Indians I would heartily recommend
"Empire of the Summer Moon" by SC Gwynne which is the history of the conflict between the Comanche Nation and the Texas settlers with a big part played by the Texas Rangers.
Most people don't know the Texas Rangers were originally an Indian-fighting outfit and only when they were re-organized about 10 years after the Civil War were they converted to lawmen.
Amartel said...
NPR is reducing Indians to a one dimensional stereotype. Indians are not all noble warriors with flowing hair silhouetted against the setting sun symbolizing the last of a great spiritual culture. Like in Dances With Wolves. Sometimes Indians like to cut a bitch. Or take the top off a mountain. For profit.
Don't know about profit, but it was called a man's heart was bad.
Bernard DeVoto gave some rather ghastly examples.
I don't wish this film well. I think it soundly deserves a slow and agonizing death that gets some Disney execs fired. Hell, fire all of 'em, gawddamn it! Disney needs a visionary autocrat at the helm, not a board room full of fourth generation Bel Aire "high concept" layabouts.
This is not the first "Lone Ranger" movie, btw. The first one was a cinecolor theatrical release of three or four Clayton Moore/Jay Silverheels TV episodes strung together with extra footage and narration. A flop, but it made a profit. Next there was an abortion with male model and gay anti-icon Klinton Spillsbury as the masked rider called The Legend of the Lone Ranger. A fop flop.
I've seen some episodes of the original TV show, but to be frank, they're shit. Nice humble hardworking folks are persecuted by bad guys. Ranger and Tonto intervene. Tonto scouts out the town and gets beaten up by the local saloon toughs for his trouble. The Ranger forces a showdown and shoots the guns from the hands of the villains. The end. Next week's episode: Nice humble hardworking folks are persecuted... blah, blah. Can't say anything about the radio series, though.
Hate to tell you, but that was the radio show, too; and it was more for kids (I was one of them). On radio they did 3 15 minute episodes 52 weeks a year - no reruns.
Yeah, shot on a soundstage, black & white, etc., but TV was brandy new (the first few episodes are copyrighted 1949), most shows were done the same way, and people loved it. The upside was that the soundtrack gave a lot of Baby Boomers their first taste of opera, particularly Wagner.
As for the original movie, I don't know how much of a flop it was, but every kid in the country 8 and under went to see it.
I'm saddened to report that I believe I can neatly summarize America's contribution to World Culture here in just a few words.
Music: jazz followed by a long downward spiral through Elvis to Snoop Dawg
Sculpture: monumental cubism
Painting: zilch
Literature: the masked avenger in his many, many guises with or without sidekick/youthful ward/faithful Indian companion
Time to tun out the lights.
Synova,
Oh hey! Hi, Crack. Good to see you alive and kicking. :)
I'm alive but not kicking:
Writing from bed with a back injury after moving 4 tons (of 80 lb. bricks) by hand.
My GOD but I'd love to see Ann do that,...
You need to update Literature.
As the baron somewhat noted, there's only one Western hero and James Fenimore Cooper invented him.
Owen Wister put him on a horse and called him The Virginian.
All Fran Striker did was give him a mask and restore his faithful Indian companion.
Belial said...,
The latest was in last night's Fresh Air (I think it was) where Terry Gross pronounced Alsace with the second syllable sounding like Spanish 'seis' 6.
You caught that, too?
It's "Al's Ass" Terry.
Al's stinky ass,...
Crack. I lived in the bay area in the 80s and the lefty Pacifica radio station announcers always used Spanish pronunciations for the Central American countries then in the news. Sandanistas. El Salvador. You get the picture. Why, I wondered do they never show solidarity with Germany by using German pronunciations when they have a story about Munich or Berlin. Or English accents regarding stories in England.
Hilarious.
edutcher wrote:
Hate to tell you...
I did mention the radio series, but made no comment having not heard any broadcast or mp3.
[The] soundtrack gave a lot of Baby Boomers their first taste of opera, particularly Wagner.
From what I've seen the incidental music was by Gioachino Rossini, not Wagner. Besides, Baby Boomers could have gotten a better exposure to opera by watching Warner Bros cartoons (seriously).
As for the original movie, I don't know how much of a flop it was, but every kid in the country 8 and under went to see it.
I'm sure you're right about the box office, but sometimes flops make money, just as some masterpieces are financial disasters. I can think of many examples, as can you. Those kids must have felt little put upon having seen much of the material before. The attraction was likely based on promotional efforts and the fact the theatrical film was in color, something the kids didn't see on the Zenith set in the living room.
Michael,
I like that woman who pronounces "Dakar" like she's Cruella DeVille,...
NPR "means well"? Really?
I don't think they do at all.
Quaestor said...
[The] soundtrack gave a lot of Baby Boomers their first taste of opera, particularly Wagner.
From what I've seen the incidental music was by Gioachino Rossini, not Wagner. Besides, Baby Boomers could have gotten a better exposure to opera by watching Warner Bros cartoons (seriously).
YMMV on what was better, although having it pounded into those pointy little heads every week didn't hurt.
You're thinking of the theme. Over the years, I heard "Valkyries" and a lot of other riffs.
As for the original movie, I don't know how much of a flop it was, but every kid in the country 8 and under went to see it.
I'm sure you're right about the box office, but sometimes flops make money, just as some masterpieces are financial disasters. I can think of many examples, as can you. Those kids must have felt little put upon having seen much of the material before. The attraction was likely based on promotional efforts and the fact the theatrical film was in color, something the kids didn't see on the Zenith set in the living room.
Wrong. Wide screen, great sound as well as Technicolor and a better story (2 hours vs 30 min).
It was very well-promoted, but anything with a TV tie-in would sell. This brought them in by the carload.
Hate to tell you (again), but it wasn't a bad flick - still holds up better than some I could name.
Michael wrote:
[The] lefty Pacifica radio station announcers always used Spanish pronunciations for the Central American countries then in the news. Sandanistas. El Salvador...
It's solidarity with the oppressed masses, man. We don't need no dead white guy Eurocentric bullshit. Those Alsatians cause wars, man. Didn't you ever read "Souvenirs de la Cour d'Assises"? Besides they pee on the carpet.
It becomes clear, on matters like this, that Liberals aren't anti-racist, they're anti-white.
"White Privilege" is bad, except when its for them.
CrackEmcee: I like that woman who pronounces "Dakar" like she's Cruella DeVille,...
The pronunciation quirks of NPR reporters deserve (and have) their very own threads, and I will cross-post here something I posted to one such thread.
---------
Ah, it's the NPR reporters
God, it's the NPR reporters
Eleanor Beardsley
Reads off the news from Paree like a marketing list
She wouldn't be missed
Comes from the South, putting on airs that it took her a lifetime to make
Give us a break
NPR reporters
Where do they all come from?
NPR reporters
Where do they all belong?
Sylvia Poggioli
Reporting from Rome on the Catholic Church and the Mob
Oh, what a job
She's-a Italian, wants you to know that in her world Italian is cool,
Pasta fazool
NPR reporters
Where do they all come from?
NPR reporters
Where do they all belong?
Ofeibea Quist-Arcton
Giving us news from the places that no one has been
Looks like a queen
Pulls it together, Africa West, East and South seem so near though they're far
She's in Dakahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
NPR reporters
Where do they all come from?
NPR reporters
Where do they all belong?
Wide screen, great sound as well as Technicolor and a better story (2 hours vs 30 min
Wrong.
Aspect ratio was 1.37:1 (same as SDTV). Technicolor, no Eastmancolor aka Cinecolor (two-strip process). 2 hours? Try 81 minutes.
As for your claim about Wagner, there are episodes on Youtube. Find one that supports your claim and let me know.
NPR people are citizens of the World.
Quaestor said...
Wide screen, great sound as well as Technicolor and a better story (2 hours vs 30 min
Wrong.
Aspect ratio was 1.37:1 (same as SDTV). Technicolor, no Eastmancolor aka Cinecolor (two-strip process). 2 hours? Try 81 minutes.
Oh, I'm so sorry I didn't memorize every technical aspect when I was 7 years old.
And hour and a half or two hours, it was still longer than a standard episode.
Big deal.
As for your claim about Wagner, there are episodes on Youtube. Find one that supports your claim and let me know.
Fuck you.
217 episodes over 8 years. No, I can't give you an episode name, but I remember it real well.
And spare me the troll act. You don't like old TV Westerns, that's your problem.
You want to nit-pick, go hang out with the She Devil of the SS and the rest of the losers that have nothing to do with their time.
As luck would have it, there's a 1958 Lone Ranger movie -- "The Lone Ranger and the Lost City of Gold," playing right now on one of the retro-TV channels right now. It's not great, but I suspect I went to see it back in the day. If so, then I don't remember much about it and really there's not that much memorable about it.
Amartel:
A remarkably small world. Its citizens need to get out and breath the fresh air. They have been isolated through "expert" testimony.
edutcher,
Try not to get so frustrated. Yeah, you're getting it fed to you by all sorts of people on this site lately, but remember, you're a valuable person with a lot to give.
Seems like you're the one that's frustrated. Can't come up with an answer when I rebut you, so you and the rest of the losers play your little game.
Well, keep playing with yourselves.
Big Mike said...
As luck would have it, there's a 1958 Lone Ranger movie -- "The Lone Ranger and the Lost City of Gold," playing right now on one of the retro-TV channels right now. It's not great, but I suspect I went to see it back in the day. If so, then I don't remember much about it and really there's not that much memorable about it.
It was intended to be the first of a series of movies after the last season of the series.
Didn't do so well, so they didn't do any more.
The One Where Meade and Althouse Sweetly Correct A Misunderstanding About Comments.
The Wagner argument seems to go to edutcher:
The theme music was the “cavalry charge” finale of Gioachino Rossini’s William Tell Overture, now inseparably associated with the series, which also featured many other classical selections as incidental music including Wagner, Mendelssohn, Liszt, and Tchaikovsky.
"She's in Dakahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"
Thread winner.
Thank you, ma'am.
I remembered the Lone Ranger and Tonto were trying to rescue a buggy pursued by the bad guys, but which episode was anybody's guess.
Crack is back!
Michael@6:53 wrote:Crack. "the lefty Pacifica radio station announcers always used Spanish pronunciations for the Central American countries then in the news. Sandanistas. El Salvador. You get the picture. Why, I wondered do they never show solidarity with Germany by using German pronunciations when they have a story about Munich or Berlin. Or English accents regarding stories in England."
Pokistan. A citizen of the world finds a Brit accent acceptable in certain situations.
Crack: "Writing from bed with a back injury after moving 4 tons (of 80 lb. bricks) by hand."
12 more tons to go. "Another day older and deeper in debt."
Amartel. I think you have me on Pokiston, but the it may be our President thinks he is prounouncing it with a Pakistani accent and not a British one.
Tonto Scissorhands Robot says:
I am Outside of Conventional Understanding. Distressed Eye-Make-Up Disguises the Beautiful Face that Would Reflect Badly on You.
To Paraphrase Meridith Brooks:
I'm a Bitch, I'm a Pirate
I'm Tonto, I'm Grape Gilbert
I'm Scissorhands and Dark Shadows
I'm Hunter Thompson's Rattle,
I'm Tim Burton's Hell, I'm His Dream
I'm Helena Bonham Carter in between
You know He wouldn't want it any other Way
There are many Westerns that you can enjoy on Net Flicks or Amazon Prime instead of this dreck. My all time top ten in reverse order.
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.
My Darling Clementine.
Johnny Guitar.
Unforgiven (Clint Eastwood Version)
The Long Riders
The Wild Bunch
Gunfight at OK Corral
Rio Grande
The Magnificent Seven
Red River
The Searchers
The list changes over time but whenever one of these flicks is on the tube I watch it.
Quaestor said...
I'm saddened to report that I believe I can neatly summarize America's contribution to World Culture here in just a few words.
Music: jazz followed by a long downward spiral through Elvis to Snoop Dawg
Sculpture: monumental cubism
Painting: zilch
Literature: the masked avenger in his many, many guises with or without sidekick/youthful ward/faithful Indian companion
Time to tun out the lights.
It has been a bleak 50 years for the arts.
Top ten all time TV western Series or miniseriers also in reverse order.
Wyatt Earp
The Virginian
The Lawman
Wanted Dear or Alive
Have Gun Will Travel
Bonanza
The Daybreakers Miniseries
Gunsmoke
Deadwood
The Rifleman
The Rifleman is on every day on MeTv and it still holds up.
Deadwood was a classic and one of the best TV shows ever.
And the only time anyone ever says motherfucker as much as on Deadwood is when the Crack Emcee is talking about Althouse. Just sayn'
I never understood why Gunsmoke had so many episodes without James Arness in it until I read his autobiography. It seems his leg was all fucked from wounds he got as an infantryman at Anzio.
James Arness was the real deal.
Tbe Long Riders would be a great watch for all you Althouse Hillbillies. It is about the James-Younger gang of bank robbers. It had the very interesting idea of having actual brothers play the brothers in the gang. The James Brothers were James Keach as Jesse and Stacy Keach as Frank James. The Carradine brothers played the Youngers.
David Carradine gave one of his best performances as Cole Younger.
He was way cool.
Bonanza would rank higher if they didn't kill off any woman that was engaged to a Cartwright.
I mean shit Ben killed off four wives before the series even started.
I think the writers had to be gay.
Amartel. I think you have me on Pokiston, but the it may be our President thinks he is prounouncing it with a Pakistani accent and not a British one.
Ayup.
"Only insofar as half the First Families of Virginia are "native american" because of the Rolfes. I mean seriously, check this out - 1/2048 Powhatan!"
Ha! Faux. Of course. The giveaway is claiming Cherokee lineage. For some people all Indians are Cherokee. Same people for whom it's always 1965 in Alabama. Change? What's that?
This is the portrait on which the Johnny Depp Tonto is based: http://www.sattlerartprint.com/iamcrow.html
Hagar said...
The Lone Ranger and Tonto are venerable comic strip characters and have nothing to do with American Indians.
Johnny Depp is a very silly man, and while he may have established a new identity for the Lone Ranger and Tonto (I hope not), this freakish get-up is more of an insult to the Indians, since he seems to claim it is supposed to have something to do with reality.
I like his acting. Just my opinion.
Look at some early paintings of native americans. They strapped all kinds of crazy shit to their heads.
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