The burial location was approved by Ruslan Tsarni, the suspected terrorist’s uncle who has represented the family as he and funeral home director Peter Stefan tried to find a cemetery willing to accept the remains for burial, the [Worcester police] official said....$30,000... not barbarians... entombed...
Stefan’s funeral home has been surrounded by media, protesters, and Worcester police, whose chief, Gary J. Gemme, on Wednesday publicly appealed for someone to step forward and end the controversy that cost his department some $30,000 in extra expenses.
‘‘We are not barbarians; we bury the dead,” Gemme said on Thursday.
May 9, 2013
The body of Tamerlan Tsarnaev has been "entombed."
Somewhere. They're not saying where.
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89 comments:
Glad to see this has been done. He deserves a burial.
Should have fed him to Wu's pigs, assuming they'd have him.
Apparently Muslims don't cremate the dead because "bodies are gifts from Allah and are not ours to destroy."
Except when they explode.
What happened to potter's field?
Yep, Wu's pigs was the correct answer. But I guess we don't want to actually win this war. Pity.
How in the world did this "controversy" cost the Worcester PD $30,000?
When I die I'd like to be enrobed in chocolate.
When I die I'd like to be enrobed in chocolate.
And then entombed, I hope. If there's one thing I really hate, its a giant chocolate bar with a soft center that smells like a corpse.
Cremation not an option? Why?
creeley23, presumably the cost of providing security for the funeral home underprotest.
Under the circumstances, I think sewing up his stomach in pig's entrails and dumping his body in the sea would be an appropriate burial. Why go crazy with "respect" for the corpse? It's a corpse, not a person and all this worrying about "proper burial" is really about respect for the person the body used to belong to.
How about a message to his fellow terrorists? Is "kill us brutally and we will ensure you a proper burial" really better than "kill us brutally and we will defile your body in the eyes of God"?
"We are not barbarians"
So? The Tibetans chop up the body and feed it to birds. Are Tibetan Buddhists barbarians?
I wonder about all victims who now must re-learn to live without a leg or an arm feel about this.
I agree that he should be given a decent burial. I'd add however that to the extent that anyone believes he ought to have burial formalities associated with his religion, those people ought to have the obligation to provide it.
I don't get what the problem was. Cremate him and dump his ashes in the litter box. At least he would have been useful for something then.
He has to be buried somehow, somewhere. While funerals are intended to be signs of respect for the deceased, it doesn't automatically follow that a burial is forgiveness or any sort of absolution for crimes. So I don't see what the controversy is to begin with. Someone has to bury the guy.
From my point of view, a burial is a "good riddance" to a killer. It's a statement of "Good, you're in the ground. You can't hurt anyone else anymore".
Tibore, does he need to be buried? Couldn't he be cremated and dumped at the base of a fire hydrant?
Hmph! I can think of two things better than what they did:
Burial "monument"/pissoir. Charge a fee that goes to help the victims.
Send him halfway home. Mid-Atlantic trench flyover, open the hatch and shove. Pig entrails would be a nice touch.
Terrorists should not be given the respect that we give to the rest of humanity--treat them like the 18th century treated pirates.
Call me an optimist, but I like to think of his tomb as a discarded 'fridge in a random landfill.
Unknown Tomb of the Known Terrorist
There's little worse than blog commenter fantasies about defiling corpses.
Worcester is almost like Gary, Indiana in its ambiance.
Cremation is against Islam burial rules. It was for Catholics until recently, however few Catholics choose cremation.
There's little worse than blog commenter fantasies about defiling corpses.
Really. "Little worse"?
How about bombing innocent bystanders? Kidnapping young girls and keeping them in your basement? Homophobia?
No pity here for the Massholes. Live by the welfare state, be bankrupted by it too. The Cambridge/Watertown wage slaves can just dig a little deeper into their wallets. 30k indeed. What did they do, gold plate the stiff first?
Oh, and it's pronounced, "Wustah."
ChipS, nice jab!
Ali like!
Palladian, that comment was unusually stupid for you. (That is, you generally don't say stupid things.) You should retract it.
spinelli, eh. I hate to post a comment like that, as it's not particularly original and certainly not funny.
But sheesh. I think of hyper concern for corpse disposal as extremely religionist. I mean, at this point, what diff?
Let him hang from a lamppost wrapped in bacon.
(I know, miserable waste of bacon)
Cremation is against Islam burial rules.
a solid reason to cremate. there are others too.
"Little worse" is a hyperbolic figure of speech. I suggest not taking everything quite so literally.
But I stand by my comment. I find people's detailed fantasies about defiling corpses to be both tiresome reading and impotently barbaric, to borrow an apt description from the Worcester police chief.
The problem w/ "little worse" isn't that it's hyperbole, it's that it's worn-out hyperbole: a lazy way to make what may or may not be a good point.
So we're switching from amateur defilement porn to grammar pedantry?
Interesting that Uncle Ruslan has gotten involved. Most of us only know him from the interview where he called the nephews losers.
Did you know:
That he used to be married to the daughter of CIA bigshot Graham Fuller?
That he founded a Chechen dissident aid group and registered it with Fuller's home address?
That he used to work for USAID in Kazakhstan?
That he is a big time oil and gas lawyer/lobbyist in DC?
(Resume here as of 2005 http://www.madcowprod.com/big-sky-energy-corporation-announces-management-additions/
Big Sky Energy is headquartered in Little Rock Arkansas, for whatever that might mean. (On McCain Road)Contact is via a Hotmail address. Call 325 514 1296 for info.
That he is a US citizen?
An interesting question would be whether, with all his insider connections, he helped get the nephews into the US extralegally.
As well as their father and mother.
Did he pull any strings to keep them from being investigated more fully?
Who is Ruslan Tsarni?
If we had a press, we might know more. Since we don't, and since knowing more might embarrass Obama and perhaps the Clintons, we won't ever know more.
John Henry
There's little worse than usage pedantry, except perhaps amateur corpse defilement porn.
Public fretting over the disposal of an unclaimed corpse is the highest form of posturing.
There you go. A stale, banal little epigram.
No, Palladian, your comment was jerky, uncalled for and stupid. I for one had no "corpse defilement porn" thoughts in my head. The only reason I gave it any thought at all was because of this issue coming up where they cannot, for whatever reason, dispose of the body. The thought just popped in my head, "just cremate him and dump him in the litter box!" Maybe it is because we have five cats. I don't know. Hardly a fantasy. Just an easy solution to a stupid problem.
Palladian, a quick aside.
You seem concerned about the treatment of Tamerlyn's corpse. Have you seen the "Body Worlds" art exhibit that consists of human body parts displayed in various poses?
http://www.smm.org/bodyworlds
I find it to be gross. I am curious about your take on it since we have this difference on the terrorist's corpse. I do not wish to thread jack so you can just give me your view and we can move on.
And then entombed, I hope. If there's one thing I really hate, its a giant chocolate bar with a soft center that smells like a corpse.
There was a Bones episode similar to this.
‘‘We are not barbarians; we bury the dead,” (Head Hero Cop of Worchester) Gemme said on Thursday.
--------------
Fuck the #1 pig in town.
It would have sent a great message to Islamoids and wannabe domestic Jihadi barbarians that America considers their bodies too foul to bury on our soil.
It would have gotten the radical Muzzies in a real tither if we had determined his burial in the US offended our sensibilities as a civilization - and the options were cremation, disposal at sea, or return to Dagestan in a cardboard box for whomever wished to deal with his corpse.
The #1 pig in town has the wrong barbarians in mind. No doubt he is cringing over the thought to offending radical Muslims - who would be outraged if the body of a terrorist was burned or dumped at sea. Offending Americans is less offensive to the Hero Head Cop.
My preference would have been to ask Russia to dispose of its own trash if we didn't have the balls to burn it and send the crazy mother a box of ashes in Chechenland.
Maybe, if we are so concerned about offending angry Muslims, we can set up a unmarked burial site in a toxic waste dump for executed kiddie rapist-killers and muslim terrorists instead.
And here's hoping his grave location is determined. Massachusetts could always use another public urinal.
I have to agree with Palladian about defiling the corpse. But, I don't understand the concept that he has to be buried. No, he does not. Cremation has been around for centuries. As for, "he's muslim and they don't believe in cremation"; I thought Islam was the religion of peace.
How do muslims treat murders in their own country? Here is one example. Is it really going so far as to cremate the corpse and give the ashes to the uncle? Why would this be an insult to Islam? The guy is a murderous thug. As many noted previously, he did far more defiling of living people. He would have done more if given the opportunity. He should be the insult to Islam.
Well, there are some U.S. citizens I am not proud to have becomme associated with.
Matt, to answer your question about the various "bodies" exhibitions, I do not like them at all, especially the ones that use Chinese corpses of unknown provenance. I generally have an extreme aversion to death-as-spectacle and to the mistreatment of human remains, for both religious and humanist reasons.
Madman,
In reverse order:
"He deserves a burial."
Absolutely, no question.
"Glad to see this has been done."
Completely disagree. Burial at sea, or better yet cremation followed by ashes-scattered-at-sea, would have been far better. A respectful treatment by our standards, a complete thumb in the eye of the Islamists at the same time.
Palladian said...
There's little worse than blog commenter fantasies about defiling corpses.
===================
Not a fantasy. Reveal the plot location, and people won't fantasize about pissing on it. They will piss on it.
Somebody gets tired of the stench of urine, digs it up, dumps the remains 20 miles out in the Atlantic - end of problem. Execpt of course for all the endlessly angry and aggrieved Muslims that would be "gravely offended that the body of a Believer was treated so by the infidels".
I think some of you should enjoy your fantasies about what you or someone should do to the corpse, and then get back to the real world where nothing more is really asked of you other than to get off your fat, ineffectual asses and cut a check to the survivors association. Leave the politics and body disposal issues to the people who make a living at this.
Thank you phx, for serving so ably as the arbiter of all that is right and holy in the world, from my fat, ineffectual ass to yours.
/sarc
Well, I thought phx had hopes of being a reasonable, liberal commenter. My bad!
Enrobed in chocolate, liquid corpsy center.
Chocolate covered cherries are created in a solid state by using an enzyme invertase and time. It takes about a week for invertase to liquify the fondant centers. Alcohol works too, so who wouldn't pick alcohol? A guy on disulfiram, that's who.
Chocolate covered cherries are sickeningly sweet.
How much does cremation cost?
Inga aka: Zsa Zsa, is afraid this burial incident might cause another terrorist attack.
would have sent a great message to Islamoids and wannabe domestic Jihadi barbarians
...like Nakouls-Nakoula's incitement video sent a message, and you were all down for kiboshing the incitement then.
I'm with Palladian and PHX, inter him in a potter's field and be done with him...or go ahead and desecrate his corpse and await another embassy-storming or an aQ execution-porn video starring a captured American soldier in reprisal.
furious_a said...
I'm with Palladian and PHX, inter him in a potter's field and be done with him...or go ahead and desecrate his corpse and await another embassy-storming or an aQ execution-porn video starring a captured American soldier in reprisal.
5/9/13, 1:22 PM
It doesn't have to be a this or that choice. We can have a decent desecration and just not tell anyone!
(While I am commenting, Palladian, thanks for your answer to my question about Body Works.)
A proper respect for human life and dignity would require that Tamerlan Tsarnaev's body be tossed in a dump somewhere.
Palladian said...
There's little worse than blog commenter fantasies about defiling corpses.
Aw, c'mon--I'm pretty sure you've had much worse fantasies than that.
I got $20 usd here for a bag of concrete. If it's good enough for Jimmy Hoffa it's good enough for that dirtbag of a bomber.
@ Mitchell the Bat
"When I die I'd like to be enrobed in chocolate."
Like Han Solo in Carbonite?
Just think. 1,000 years from now if some future archeologist dug you up they'd formulate an entire theory based on this. Could be a bit amusing.
I love the Body Works show, but it should only consist of voluntary body donations. If I donate my body to that, there is no defilement, no dishonor, just the opposite.
We have been fascinated with our bodies both alive and dead since before we were even human. The smarter we got the more interest we developed. It's science, it's life it's reality, it's knowledge. I feel much better off for seeing it, and I would love to be on display myself if they can't find anything better for my body. But, I would like some restorative surgery be done before I'm put on that pedestal, and what the hell, hang a 10 pound dumbbell on my penis for a few days before the big reveal. Let's give 'em something to talk about.
I feel some discomfort with the defilement talk, but I also feel that no honor should be provided to someone who decides to purposefully target and kill unarmed non-combatants and children. That was his choice to defile himself while still alive. It should not be his victims' duty to restore his lost honor, and we have every right to assure our enemies do not do it either.
No defilement, because that lessens us, but no honor afforded either, because that too is a disservice to the victims and to decency.
I'm not good with any defilement of the body. I do like the idea about publicizing the fact that America considers terrorism dishonorable and so will not dignify terrorists in honor with religious or civil ceremony or considerations. Leave it at thatonly mentioning that the body was cremated and the ashes buried anonymously in a potter's field.
Interesting bagoh. The defilement talk doesn't phase me yet I find Body Works creepy. I appreciate your perspective as you have you described it but I still find it creepy.
Matt, in case you're still gathering opinions, I find all those body exhibit shows quite amazing. Utterly fascinating. I'm also fascinated by the U of T's 'Body Farm'. A body is a body is an empty sack of meat once the spirit (or soul or whatever you prefer) is gone.
And, while I can understand wanting to feed Tsarnaev to pigs etc, probably just as well not too. Simply cremate him (I don't care if muzzies don't like it) and dump the ashes somewhere and be done with it.
And phx: last night you seemed off your game. Today you just seem angry and a little mean. You okay?
For reals.
CEO,
I did not set out to gather opinions but it is interesting to see the variance among the people here with there view of "Body Works" versus 'terrorist corpse desecration' (for lack of a better descriptor).
I commend the funeral home for doing their job. Hope this does not affect them too adversely.
US military medics will treat wounded enemies if given a chance. Some things you just do because of your own human dignity, not that of the wounded or deceased.
$30K? For what?
$30K? For what?
Well, I thought phx had hopes of being a reasonable, liberal commenter. My bad!
Oh sure. We're always friends until I say something you don't like!
And phx: last night you seemed off your game. Today you just seem angry and a little mean. You okay?
For reals.
You sound way too personally invested in me.
I figure the US government did enough "defilement" by releasing the photo of his torn and mangled corpse. Clearly they wanted his friends and emulators to see what terrorists have coming to them when they mess with us. Point well taken.
Now bury the body because we're not animals. You know how they say "If we're afraid the terrorists have won." Not really. If we act like animals while trying to protect ourselves, then the terrorists have won.
phx said...
I think some of you should enjoy your fantasies about what you or someone should do to the corpse, and then get back to the real world where nothing more is really asked of you other than to get off your fat, ineffectual asses and cut a check to the survivors association. Leave the politics and body disposal issues to the people who make a living at this.
5/9/13, 12:17 PM
That is just a troll dropping. Nothing reasonable in there whatsoever.
phx said...
I figure the US government did enough "defilement" by releasing the photo of his torn and mangled corpse.
phx, I thought it was a random person with access who released it. Have you seen a report to the contrary? If so, could you post a link, please?
Basic human decency calls for his body to be treated with respect. Either the public authorities who had his body provide for a burial, or else it's returned to the next of kin, and they do it.
Lots of people--lots and lots--commit grave sins and real crimes, and we don't attempt to inflict a punishment on their corpses. Let it go. He is dead and he has already been judged by God.
The reason to respect his remains is both out of respect for God who created him, for his humanity, which no evil of his can undo, and for the family, especially his parents, who should not be punished for his sins.
When something is wrong to do, it's wrong both because of it's being done to the other; but also because what the doing of it does to us.
Phx:
There are folks--including some who comment here, in this thread--who are really quite all right if we do precisely what the terrorists do; all that matters is that it be "us" who prevail.
Of course, left for later is whether you, or I, or others who think they're in that "us" will still be.
Such is the nature of Fascism.
The reason we fight isn't merely to end up on top--but to stay the "we" we are, and hope to be.
Because I don't particularly want to become the Fascist States of America in order to avoid becoming the Islamic States of America. That's a sales job that has not been candidly made to the American people.
Father Fox,
I found this particular (paraphrased) line you wrote the most persuasive:
"The reason to respect his remains is... for the family, especially his parents, who should not be punished for his sins."
While his parents strike me as less than savory, I think of his uncle who, through the anger he expressed on television, is clearly pained by what became of his nephews. You expressed yourself very well.
Matt:
Thanks; after writing it, I'd say something a little different:
The family and friends are already suffering because of what he did. No one can help that.
But I can't see why any decent person would want to increase their suffering. For what?
So...the government respects the corpse of a dead terrorist bomber more than it respects the safety of living women trying to escape enslavement?
Ohhhh kaaaaayyyyy.
phx, I thought it was a random person with access who released it. Have you seen a report to the contrary? If so, could you post a link, please?
Matt, my theory is no random person would have gotten anywhere near that body with the feds all over that case. If it had been a hospital or mortuary worker they would have been fired so fast it would make your head spin.
The government wanted that photo out. They wanted his "friends" to see what was coming to them.
I have no problem treating my enemies with basic decency. My strategies for survival depend on it.
I'm also reminded of Winston Churchill who said, "Just because you have to kill a man doesn't mean you shouldn't be polite about it."
phx, that is a plausible theory. Thanks for answering!
Can you imagine an Abraham Lincoln saying "Let's desecrate the body"?
All this hangwringing over what to do with poor little speedbumps remains is sickening.
I get why the good father is compelled to show more respect than the miserable islamic piece of shit deserves, but no reason for the rest of you.
Oh well, different strokes for different folks I guess. I personally would vote for bacon wrapped shark bait, but my brand of Catholicism is much of the old testament variety.
Cedarford ... if I donate $100 up to $500 to a charity of your choice, seriously would you stop using the term "heroes" as a slur as you seem wont to do?
I'd recommend....
173d Herd Foundation Wounded Warrior Fund
173d ABN BDE ASSN Foundation
...a group of actual valiant Americans, the wounded of which need help, but I'll send it to your choice otherwise.
Cease the use, and tell me where to send the donation. Your choice. My wish.
To second Aridog...I'll add $100 to a worthy charity to end the use of "heroes" as a slur. If you think someone isn't worthy of the term "hero", say who they are and why, otherwise STFU with the use of "heroes" as a sneer quote.
173d Herd Foundation Wounded Warrior Fund
173d ABN BDE ASSN Foundation
Respect.
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