In this case, it's that I need a good substitute for the word "clusterfuck." I can't just use that word in class, but it does often seem to be the mot juste, and I need a synonym.
I'm glad to see it's come up on Ask Metafilter... not that there is a good answer. Debacle? Trainwreck? Imbroglio?
I think clusterfuck is unique.
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Mga Post
Mga Post
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136 (na) komento:
The word has (according UD) a military pedigree: clusterfuck.
My how lefties want to diminish the lexicon
A goat roping.
"Hot mess".
Fustercluck. They'll know what you mean.
Charlie Foxtrot.
Always be a lady.
Circular firing squad
From James Lileks: Clusterfarg.
That's "President Clusterfuck" to you, though I don't think he'd ever rise to the rank of colonel.
I think that clusterf*ck, besides being really good at evoking the idea of everything going spectacularly and disastrously wrong, also is unique in implying that it all was a sublime group effort.
Other things like the "goat" variations or, I think, imbroglio or trainwreck or debacle don't really have that "joint effort" connotation.
FUBAR almost does it because it encompasses the totality of aspects involved in whatever it was that f*cked up.
The terms don't fit when it's just one (vital) element that went wrong.
Maybe debacle. Maybe imbroglio. I don't know.
Could add "group effort" or even "orchestrated" as an adjective to inform "debacle"...
One of the UD definitions suggested...
"A polite term using the same initials would be compound fiasco."
I think that's actually pretty good.
Epic Fail?
Your student will identify with it.
Goatrope is good.
Among. those who know, there are no virgin goats here.
There's always SNAFU.
Father would have approved.
"Obamalich"?
We once watched a crappy kid's movie with hamsters or Guinea pigs or somesuch and their term in the movie was "cluster storm."
Rape rape.
http://translate.google.com/#auto/la/cluster%20fuck
Nothing approaches the eloquence if clusterfuck.
Circle jerk or gobsmack might at best hint At what you want.
But really! Why avoid saying what you really want say in the first place?
For some reason the phrase "target-rich environment" resonates.
"Their antagonists enjoyed the target-rich environment presented to them."
I like "Charlie Foxtrot," but it doesn't work when you're talking to teenagers. They'll ask you to say what you mean, and then you are back where you started.
Target-rich environment is an aviation term meaning plenty of things on the ground to blow up.
The connotation is good, rather than bad.
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...
I like "Charlie Foxtrot," but it doesn't work when you're talking to teenagers. They'll ask you to say what you mean, and then you are back where you started.
Considering they've probably seen all the Rambo-Predator-Terminator-Die Hard movies ever made, I'll bet they know it.
But again, these are Ann's students - mid 20s and older - not a bunch of high school kids.
Pete said...
From James Lileks: Clusterfarg.
That's good. Clusterfark works too and would resonate with the youth.
I think "Train Wreck" works better than the CF because as you observe the cars pile up upon each other, momentum doing it's inexorable job to ruin everything that comes behind the first, you realize that a really bad initial decision has been made.
Clustermuck
Just say Cluster. Short and sweet and makes the point in a non offensive way.
I like "dumpster fire". It has the out-of-control nastiness connotation, without the potty-mouth overtones.
You could go with that sci-fi show's alliteration. Clusterfrack.
It would be hard to miss your point. However, if I was saying that to adults. I'd be more embarrassed than if I just went with the original.
Rugby match, hockey game, bumper cars, chile roast, bingo ball hopper, pool tournament, Woodstock, a 1968 Democratic convention, a Madison teacher's union protest.
We say "goat rodeo" when the chaplain's around.
Whoa. This exact term came up, entirely coincidentally, at a homeschool intersection of differing folks early this afternoon today, in real life, with reference to a different topic. So the experience is not on topic, exactly, but on the other hand, a discussion about the point regarding what other word could be used in as precise a fashion of meaning as "clusterfuck" without actually *using* that word absolutely DID ensue.
How freakin' weird, by virtue of the coincidence, is that?
Koyaanisqatsi
kerfuffle cubed?
(Haven't read any comments on this thread, by the way: previous comment was purely in reaction to the post, which I just saw.)
And, frankly, I haven't clicked over to Metafilter either. I'd have used the word "yet" except that I'm not sure I actually will. Yet. Otherwise occupied, therefore busy.
Soup Sandwich.
Yeah, it's hard to find another word, phrase or acronym that does the job as well. FUBAR, as has been said, comes close, but no cigar. (I've always preferred FUBB viz FUBAR myself because "beyond belief" tops "all recognition" in my book, lol) Of course, one could fall back on the old phrase "Like a Chinese fire-drill" but I'm sure today's students would find that to be, how shall we say, culturally "insensitive." lol.
Here at the coffee house some of us have stopped using the word "clusterfuck" at all, replacing it with the phrase "gay marriage comment thread".
One very firm conclusion to which I came is that snafu [SNAFU] is not *at all* an appropriate synonym. (Still haven't done the clicks yet: full disclosure etc.)
I like this thread.
Toasted ice.
72 virgins. With machetes. And they're pissed.
And now having read only the first comment on this thread, I want to weigh in: FUBAR doesn't cut it as a synonym, either--based on what *I'm* referring to, which is today's early afternoon conversation.
How about FUBAR?
edutcher, I was thinking about being on the wrong side in a "target-rich environment" situation. That's pretty much what a clusterfuck is.
You are such a naughty girl.
FWIW, I'm thinking that "clusterfuck" is more a sui generis label, when properly employed, as opposed to its various *kissin' cousins,* which by definition are more generic.
I use "clusterhug" when necessary.
"How about FUBAR?"
I can't imagine saying that conversationally.
"Hot mess".
That could work conversationally, in class.
From Wiktionary:
"Derived terms:
fustercluck"
Fustercluck?? Ow, my soul...
The more I think of it, I may start using "compound fiasco."
It IS a unique word - but then most words *are* unique.
What I want to know is how exactly it came into being and defined the way it is.
I think it has something to do with the way the word 'feels' in the mouth saying it:'clussss-ter fuque' - medium sound in the beginning with the soft 'f' and then a hard sound at the end.
Yeah. I think that's it.
Personally I've been using 'train wreck' - where appropriate (actually I've been saying 'what a farking trainwreck' mostly) - the past six months. It real covers a lot of ground and everyone knows what I mean.
"Bob Ellison said...
"Hot mess"."
This one always sounds like someone is having a... *ahem* ...GI tract problem - most likely from really bad Mexican food.
"tiger said...
"Bob Ellison said...
"Hot mess"."
This one always sounds like someone is having a... *ahem* ...GI tract problem - most likely from really bad Mexican food."
To me, it sounded like someone talking about drunk celebrities...
'St. George said...
Koyaanisqatsi'
Ah you made me laugh.
Out loud.
You bastard! ;)
"Hot mess" reminds me of this. It may look like a CF, but it's a damn tasty one.
If SNAFU and FUBAR are appropriate to use in polite company, given the risk that someone might ask what they mean, then Charlie Foxtrot is fine.
clusterbotch or clusterfud
"Contango" should be a synonym for CF.
Can we get that started?
Gang Rape.
I can't think of a generic word or phrase to describe sub-human group action against an (innocent, helpless, different) individual.
It's ugly, and it's real. Like the kid at school that gets picked on by everyone.
There is the word "Outcast," "Pariah," but it refers to the person affected, not the group action. The group has protected itself by subtly pushing the blame on the victim, as opposed to where it belongs on the group.
I've even heard witty statements such as "Well, if many are saying something, you must be wrong." Hammer that nail down.
How about making up a new word.
Cluster fuck doesn't do it, because it could mean random environmental events and not coordinated group think actions. Gang rape is close, but it implies males, and neglects the other aspects of group think that cause such disgusting behavior in people, when people act like a group of chickens pecking a sick chicken to death.
Yes, I'm serious that there is a missing element in our language here, to express the idea that someone who thinks differently, not a group, but an individual, is destroyed for it.
Situation normal.
tiger,
Koyaanisqatsi
Yeah, I LOLd too. But then Philip Glass really irritates me.
The modern term for "clusterfuck" is "GOP obstructionism", especially when caused by your own policies.
"Hot mess" is more appropriate for describing, for example, so-called "accidental" displays of one's vagina or penis or of some one or another analogical thing, and sometimes even both and/or all. "Hot mess" might even be appropriate, in terms of analogy, for both many political and partisan concepts and the way in which those concepts have been put forth. All of that has been clear to see for many years.
"Clusterfuck" is something else. Full stop.
dysfunctional convergence (DC)
I do like "hot mess". Not as a replacement for "clusterfuck", which is clearly a group project.
A "hot mess" is an individual who is so oblivious to their overdoing of something that they seem to be throwing firewood on their own funeral pyre. They can only be backed away from and gazed at as they consume themselves and any vestige of self-respect. It's something you don't want to be, but can enjoy watching from a distance.
Freeway pileup has good imagery. Wikipedia says Madison, Wisconsin had a 100 car pileup in January 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-vehicle_collision
I vote for the "dysfunctional convergence" above.
n.n.
That's pretty damn great, n.n., your DC is. It's possibly as close to "cluster fuck" as one can get, I think, without (despite?) not capturing the precise immediacy--that is, in the exact moments + situation on point and in question.
To repeat: That's pretty damn great, n.n. Consider it added to the hierarchy of some such that I will keep in mind and ponder.
How about communal botch up? Botched abortion or botched circumcision if you want to get gender specific.
"Clusterfuck" -- the (slightly) more politically correct version of "Chinese fire drill"
Orifice cleanser.
I like D.C. too, and the accronym is so appropriate
This one is easy, "cluster fiesta".
Lucien:
Oh, no: emphatically not. "Chinese fire drill" (and I'm old enough to remember that in common-enough use) is not at all a synonym for "cluster fuck." In a key way, it contains an element of the opposite to it. See: intent.
Flustercuck.
I saw a show on one of the nature channels about the breeding habits of anacondas. They really do cluster fuck. A whole bunch of them get together and crawl all over each other and thus reproduce. A cluster fuck is an anaconda orgy.
You could pretend you're British, I think they're more comfortable with the word than we are.
But here's an Idea, Just tell your students that there is something you'd like to tell them, but you can't do it in a classroom setting, Then direct them to your blog, in which not being a classroom, but the whole wide world you can shout anything you please...
Dear Professor Althouse,
If you are using this term in your law school class, I suggest a reference to People v. Mellish. The defendant, Fielding Mellish, appearing in propria persona objected to the composition of the jury.
Fielding Mellish: "I object, your honor! This trial is a travesty. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham. I move for a mistrial."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP3uGDEPvzA
Das Gruppe Fick
sydney, rcommal, bagoh20:
It describes a chaotic behavior where entities or processes follow diverse paths to circle a bowl (or sink) and are eventually consumed. Not unlike the theoretical model of a black hole, where diverse forms of energy and matter are coerced to merge and are subsequently corrupted or destroyed.
It is the same behavior observed with progressive corruption (PC).
I saw a show on one of the nature channels about the breeding habits of anacondas. They really do cluster fuck. A whole bunch of them get together and crawl all over each other and thus reproduce. A cluster fuck is an anaconda orgy.
Are you sure that wasn't a garter snake orgy? I can't imagine anacondas doing that. The sheer weight would crush them.
n.n. Despite the destruction of matter in the Black Hole, no information is lost. Amazing, isn't it? The posit of losing information was from Steven Hawkins, and it made him famous. But, he didn't solve the problem.
The human reality analogue is that eventually the truth catches up to you. Wish it were true: maybe we just don't live long enough.
Bender said...
If SNAFU and FUBAR are appropriate to use in polite company, given the risk that someone might ask what they mean, then Charlie Foxtrot is fine.
SNAFU has been since V-J Day. FUBAR is its Vietnam offspring.
It's been protocol to replace the verbal variant of a Roman arch with fouled.
Chinese fire drill, if things aren't actually broken yet.
I think clusterfuck carries the implication of possible permanent offspring with no plan that's working.
A duck, a plan, a canal, clusterfuck.
Clusterfuck is not a candy bar.
Chip S. said...
Here at the coffee house some of us have stopped using the word "clusterfuck" at all, replacing it with the phrase "gay marriage comment thread".
Thread Winnah!
I've always wondered when "clusterfuck" ceased to mean "gang bang".
Just remembered, how about "Group Grope?" Or does that lack the needed aspect of the confused dysfunctional "messiness" of it all and inject sexual implications unnecessarily? And hasn't "hot mess" always had sexual overtones? Usually applied to either a) homosexuals, or b) randy women from the wrong side of the tracks, i.e., David Bowie's "Hot Tramp"?
Blunderfest.
circlejerk
circlejerk
Professor, back to basics, before you substitute, what do you mean to convey by CF? What are you trying to define or describe? A metastasis of Murphy's Law? A bunch of people all failing together? Something that is just really bad and fucked up? I'm not seeing the crystalline perfection of CF meaning for which you fear there is no substitute.
Stephen King has a mealymouthed politician in Under the Dome say clustermug.
Hot mess: not only is it a mess, but being hot, is a) likely to stink and stain, b) going to be hard to clean up. In this wise you might try "devil to pay," short for "there is the devil to pay and no pitch hot."
FUBAR: used in Saving Private Ryan, so pre-Vietnam, or anachronism?
Goat rope: what is goat rope? Have been hearing that, don't know what it means.
Chinese fire drill: I thought that's when you stop the car at a stoplight and the driver and passenger or some other passengers jump out of the car run around and exchange seats.
I've been getting some mileage lately out of "That's going to leave a mark."
By the way, professor, you say you like to mix it up and so forth, but nonetheless your attempts to use foul language are jarring, unnatural, and IMHO lower you. Profanity or obscenity are refuges of a weak mind, a poor vocabulary or emotions out of control, and very rarely is there no substitute. Quit trying to be cool. If you want to be accepted by the in crowd, just put out for everybody and they'll like you fine.
We use "GF" - abbreviated version of the goat variety. a lot. Though this has been complicated by the daughters who have gone gluten-free for awhile.
The number 44 is an extremely unlucky number to superstitious Chinese folk.
I'd suggest 'Cluster-44'.
Oh, 44 also happens to be Obama's number as president.
Nichevo, you remind me of a serial killer/ rapist/ torturer with impeccable manners, clean fingernails and a killer vocabulary, with that combination of dead eyes and smiling lips.
Nichevo, you remind me of a serial killer/ rapist/ torturer with impeccable manners, clean fingernails and a killer vocabulary, with that combination of dead eyes and smiling lips.
That's quite the compliment.
You could try SNAFU, or snafu, since it has evolved beyond it's acronym beginnings to symbolize something all messed up.
There was even a video game awhile back called Snafu.
The downside is it just doesn't sound as visceral as CF.
Profanity or obscenity are refuges of a weak mind
I always heard it was strongly typed programming languages.
Dennis Miller uses "goat-shtup." It's got a nice ring to it.
It doesn't have quite the impact, but from my long ago time in the Army I'd say "Well planed train wreck" holds much the same meaning.
I am with Synova, Fubar works for me.
Trey
When the rose-colored glasses break, you could use "an Obama" and everyone ('cept Freder and the gang) will know exactly what you mean. Feder et.al. will know, too. They'll just never admit it.
Brits--even the posh ones--have no problem using the harsh words. They do it preferentially. Instead of saying that something bothers you or is weighing you down, say it "gets on your tits." We;re bringing everything from there anyway--what works and what doesn't--so you might as well get started with that.
Try "fire at an ammo dump" 'til then. You'll sound butch as a bonus. Or say "like the LA cops looking for a pickup." The kiddies enjoy the "ripped from the headlines" approach.
My wife and I use CF to denote clusterfuck, mostly when the children are in the room. Mostly.
FUBAR and CF don't really mean the same thing. FUBAR usually means some kind of equipment which is so badly damaged that it is not possible to fix it. A CF is a situation where the task at had is not being done or being done very inefficiently due to lack of leadership or poor organization.
Cockup is close but I'd suggest the modifier "systemic" in order to convey the group dynamic.
It's slang and mildly profane too, of course, but probably would pass muster in more venues.
When one person screws up they are said to have "f*cked up. Hence when it is a group of people screwing up and the multiple screw-ups have a multiplicative effect it is a "cluster f*ck" with "up" being understood though not expressed.
There are some words that are not replaceable with polite speech. It is the use of profanity that gives the necessary edge. As such they may not be usable in polite company. I would say that cluster f*uck, bull shit and chicken sh*t are three such terms.
Nichevo said...
FUBAR: used in Saving Private Ryan, so pre-Vietnam, or anachronism?
In WWII and Korea, it was SNAFU. In 'Nam, FUBAR.
As with a good bit of "Ryan", lousy history.
By the way, professor, you say you like to mix it up and so forth, but nonetheless your attempts to use foul language are jarring, unnatural, and IMHO lower you. Profanity or obscenity are refuges of a weak mind, a poor vocabulary or emotions out of control, and very rarely is there no substitute. Quit trying to be cool.
Second that.
dbp said...
FUBAR and CF don't really mean the same thing. FUBAR usually means some kind of equipment which is so badly damaged that it is not possible to fix it. A CF is a situation where the task at had is not being done or being done very inefficiently due to lack of leadership or poor organization.
Don't know where you heard it, but your CF is the way I heard SNAFU used even as a kid and it's how SNAFU was used in WWII.
Cluster blank.
Kept me out of HR, so you can say it in a corporate setting and not be sent to be reeducated.
Cluster love!
Who can object to that?
edutcher said...
Ref: Nichevo said..." FUBAR: used in Saving Private Ryan, so pre-Vietnam, or anachronism? "
In WWII and Korea, it was SNAFU. In 'Nam, FUBAR.
As with a good bit of "Ryan", lousy history.
I passed on this FUBAR assertion the first time, as no harm no foul, but you doubled down on it incorrectly answering a fair question.
Question: Do you ever back-check anything, just in case, before asserting it as hard fact in a comment? Especially one purporting to answer a question about a military acronym?
Like maybe check FUBAR in OED?
I'd suggest that publication of the term in 1944 is WWII era, not Vietnam for origination.
Maybe it's just me.
edutcher is right about FUBAR/SNAFU. SNAFU is the one closest to CF.
Aridog said...
Like maybe check FUBAR in OED?
Why would they be the authority?
Just askin'
I'd suggest that publication of the term in 1944 is WWII era, not Vietnam for origination.
Maybe it's just me.
You do like a fight, sir.
I never heard FUBAR until about 1970. I've also seen several books attributing it to the Vietnam War, particularly those that had a section devoted to the slang and acronyms of the conflict.
I grew up with SNAFU.
There are some 1960s WWII movies that use FUBAR--well at least one. I don't care enough to dig up the title, but I remeber the use. Think it was said among Brit officers--perhaps mentioning that it was another thing they picked up from Americans and not meant in a good way.
Hmmm,
That you say movies made in the 60s makes me wonder if they just used what was contemporary out of ignorance.
Not disputing what you say, just wondering.
Chip: "Contango" already is a word with a very specific meaning, and the meaning is nothing like clusterfuck. It's like suggesting, "Let's call it 'infield fly rule'."
Maybe I'm not totally with the program about what you would use the term for, but what about "bag full of cats" to describe a situation where nothing is accomplished in a loud and destructive way.
edutcher said ...
Why would they be the authority?
Oh, I donno ...Perhaps because they cite the first printed publication in Yank magazine 07 January 1944? So does Wikipedia, citing OED. "Yank" magazine was the U S Army weekly magazine from 1942 thru 1945.
Now, my link to OED appears broken so here is the copy & past citation from it:
"fubar, adj.
View as: Outline |Full entry
Quotations: Show all |Hide all
Pronunciation:
Brit. /ˈfuːbɑː/ , U.S. /ˈfuˌbɑr/
Forms: 19– FUBAR, 19– fubar.
Etymology: Acronym < the initial letters of fouled (or fucked) up beyond all recognition. Compare snafu phr., adj., and n.(Show Less)
U.S. (orig. Mil. slang).
Categories »
Bungled, ruined, messed up. Also: extremely intoxicated.
Often used as a euphemism for fucked up (see fucked-up adj.).
1944 Yank 7 Jan. 8/1 The FUBAR Squadron... FUBAR? It means ‘Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition’.
1957 A. O. Myrer Big War ix. 129 What's to this yarn about you being a fubar character from the word advance?
1980 Washington Post 5 June e24/3 The word fubar was coined with Congress in mind.
1990 Rolling Stone 5 Apr. 48/3, I was getting FUBAR by then.
2001 S. King Dreamcatcher xiii. 443 This was my grandfather's and it works just fine... My wristwatch, on the other hand, is still FUBAR."
I'm not picking a fight, fool, I am merely correcting an error you made...and not when you first made it, but when you directly informed another commenter incorrectly. It isn't even debatable.
By the way, when YOU first happen to hear of something does not time/date its origination.
But it wasn't in general use until 'Nam.
A nickname for one squadron in the war hardly constitutes usage on the scale of Kilroy or "It only hurts when I laugh".
The fact Yank had to define it meant it was unknown to most people, particularly servicemen.
Fool.
You really need to get some help.
Dante:
I think the data survives, in some form, but information (i.e. coherence) is indeed lost. It's a process similar to matter-energy transformation, where at minimum structural information is lost. It's conservative, yet corruptive in its essence.
Not unlike a developing human life, from conception to grave, and then outside that limited frame, where most people assume that the previous state is unrecoverable.
It's a transformative process, which exceeds our limited capacity to fully appreciate, and certainly our ability to control.
It's a chaotic process which is bounded with a "random" (i.e. fluctuating but orderly) intermediate behavior, and subject to the inviolable influence of sources (e.g. birth) and sinks (e.g. death).
edutcher...you fuck up so you move the goal posts, now asserting common use didn't occur until Vietnam....rather than when it originated. In other words, you are wrong so you double down again with weasel wording. You are amazing....
Let me quote your orignal assertion:
SNAFU has been since V-J Day. FUBAR is its Vietnam offspring.
SNAFU since VJ Day. Really? VJ Day come early in your area...Time magazine used the term in its intended form in June 1942. Maybe they had to explain that, you know, 3 years in advance of VJ Day in august 1945 and all....
And you clearly say FUBAR is the offspring of SNAFU implying provenance in Vietnam....never mind it was in print in 1944. The issue isn't where usage became common but where it originated...and amazingly you are wrong on both counts.
Here is actual article in Yank where the paragraph is headed with the term/word "FUBARS" ...and then goes on to describe a unit, presuming the acronym is common knowledge....not illuminating it until the last sentence of the piece.
BTW...show me where I compared usage of FUBAR to that of KILROY, okay. I think I missed that.
Oh, wait...that was your "Oh, look....SQUIRREL" moment, right?
In the Yank link, to get to the article vis a vis FUBAR you have to click forward to Page 8, as cited originally by OED.
I'm confused. Since when is there anything that pops into the head of a tenured professor at a public university that she can't say? The whole system of guaranteed lifetime employment for academicians is designed to separate inappropriate language and behavior from real-life consequences. What is there about the classroom that the vocabulary appropriate to the blogosphere has to be tidied up?
As long as everyone doesn't start using "Crunchy Frog" as their CF equivalent, I'm okay with it.
The one you can say in polite company is "unitednations".
I took a cue from The Fantastic Mr. Fox (a great movie!) and try to use clustercuss in public instead.
We came up with a great euphemism for clusterfuck: Stochastic Orgy.
I like the term "cooperative failure".
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