January 24, 2013
An "edgier strategy" for the obesity problem: "a carefully calibrated effort of public social pressure" to provide "a shock of recognition."
Or, as The Daily Mail restates it: "Shaming fat people into losing weight is the only way to solve obesity epidemic, leading health academic claims."
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146 comments:
Yeah, bullying them about their weight is a much better idea than leaving them the hell alone.
Hypothetically speaking, couldn't we shame anyone engaging in other risky behaviors? The threshold for doing so could be an assessment on the public monies spent.
If we should shame people for being fat, which is an individual health risk, then why can't we shame people for being sexually promiscuous, which is a public health risk?
Of course, there's an inherent problem with privacy associated with generalizing a shaming strategy. Fat people are at a disadvantage because they wear their problem under their sleeves.
It won't work because obesity isn a strictly behavioral issue.
It will make it worse and drive more to overeat, using food as their drug of choice because the world is cruel and has now shamed them even more than they have already been ashamed of themselves.
Then their metabolic issues will become worse, they will get yet more obese and shamed even more?
Brilliant.
What is the cost to the taxpayer/insurance customer of treating obesity-related health problems?
And sports-related health problems...
And driving-related health problems...
And voluntary decision to have children problems...
Which matters of individual choice do we get to nose into because it's costing us money?
Is it only a matter of etiquette... what's nice and what's not nice?
Or is it about what's effective, so if shaming is effective, then we should overcome our reticence about shaming and shame on.
Complete utter fucking bullshit. There isn't a fat person in the U.S. or Britain for that matter that doesn't know they are fat, that it isn't healthy and that they need to make changes in their lifestyles.
Bullying or social pressure isn't going to make matters any easier. If losing weight were easy, there wouldn't be any fat people.
Frankly, I don't know for sire what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure I know what it isn't.
This "edgier strategy" dates back to the time of the Puritans.
Shall fat folks were a scarlett F?
If nothing else, the non-obese will get the cathartic release of calling people lard asses and fat pigs. That's in keeping with our latest progressive tactics.
Shame will only make people more inactive and eat more. I think that the best way to solve the obesity problem would be to cut off electricity from the time school/work gets out until 10:00 pm on weekdays so kids/adults can't just sit around in front the television and then do the same thing during the afternoons on the weekends. A less drastic move would be to stop TV broadcasts during those times (although that would mean video games and computers would still be available but I think that kids find it easier to walk away from a video game or surfing the net than they do from the TV).
In new America we deal with obesity problem in straightforward way: Cut rations and double work quota.
No, no, no.
See, it is ok to shame smokers, elected Republicans, and gun owners.
Everyone else, not so much.
Is it just a question of what's effective?
If we knew shaming was effective — peer pressure is effective in an awful lot of things — than is that what we should do?
I want to isolate the conventional etiquette (and self-indulgence in niceness) from the question of effectiveness.
Assume it's effective. Now what?
I think the nice people are going easy on themselves by reflexively saying it won't work. You want to say that because you don't want to have to talk about what makes you uncomfortable: Getting out of your comfort zone.
You are ethical couch potatoes. Get up and move.
"If we should shame people for being fat, which is an individual health risk, then why can't we shame people for being sexually promiscuous, which is a public health risk?"
Because Lena Dunham said so.
Note that the expert isn't saying let's be bullies, let's be mean. He's calling for "carefully calibrated social pressure."
People immediately reject that, even though every day they unleash social pressure against people - including against this health expert.
Ah, yes, shame, because the reason people are fat is because they are lazy and slothful.
Except, as Gary Taubes argues, that's exactly opposite of the truth. And he blames the authorities' recommendation to go low-fat for the very problem. So naturally, let's use more government authority to blame people for following the original mistake made by government authority. Brilliant.
This is sin for the secular set. Instead of being concerned about your soul, they use concern over your health and their pocketbook as a lever to interfere in your life. And to think they used to mock the moralistic busybodies....
Which matters of individual choice do we get to nose into because it's costing us money?
Well, there's the rub. Now that the Government has mandated health coverage, and sticks its nose further and further into health care decisions, there are pretty much no decisions an individual can make that won't affect the US Treasury. This, of course gives the Government an interest in controlling our behavior.
For many, I suppose this is a feature, not a bug.
"There isn't a fat person in the U.S. or Britain for that matter that doesn't know they are fat..."
That's blatantly wrong. Read the article!
Is the expression "I'm big-boned" familiar?
People are in denial.
Then there are all the people who might concede that they are fat but they qualify it so it isn't bad: I'm fit and fat or I'm big and beautiful.
More to love.
"Assume it's effective" That's a pretty big assumption.
Pretty much like prohibition was assumed to be effective, preaching abstention from pre-marital sex was assumed to be effective and gun control is assumed to be effective.
Meanwhile, a class of people get the green light to be bullied and shamed.
My guess is that the shamed part is already in place, it's just not effective.
Effectiveness of shaming should be taken into consideration, but in the case case of obesity, i dont think so, as its driven not so much by choice as by physiology, as opposed to psycholgy.
Choose to have babies, or bungi jump, shaming may have value, if you want to reign in medical costs we all will have incure, but many people won't like the idea of something so wholesome a choosing to have a child shame worthy.
Yes. People are fat because their lives don't suck enough. Also, they are confused and think that fat people are widely regarded as being sexually attractive, youthful, energetic and successful. Everywhere you look, on TV, in magazines, on billboards, there are these huge fat people living the dream.
I'm surprised no one has brought up the other added bonus---racial minorities are much more likely to be overweight or obese. Congrats, white liberals, you are now allowed to shame minorities guilt-free! It's for their own good, you know.
"Note that the expert isn't saying let's be bullies, let's be mean. He's calling for "carefully calibrated social pressure."
That is expert-speak for let's be bullies and let's be mean.
It's Britain and the government knows its nationalized health plan is unsustainable unless they can find dramatic ways to cut claims. Certainly, encouraging healthier lifestyles is one way, but to resort to government-sanctioned "shaming" doesn't sound like a good idea.
But hey, if it works, why not try shaming all those people on the dole, too, and save even more!
I think if we could get the government to stop bullying the bullies, then the bullies would bully the fatties, and thus the government wouldn't have to bully both the bullies and the fatties.
Assume it's effective. Now what?
Makes no difference. The governemnt can through force eliminate obesity. That would be effective. I don't think it's the role of government to do so. There are lots of ills the government could end. That doesn't mean it ought to.
Damned straight, Ann. There is more to love. You don't let them endanger their health, but, just because they get as big as the She-Wolf of the SS, doesn't mean you dump them for a newer model.
But keep in mind, this becomes an issue of who defines "obese". Moochelle "3000 calories and an eye roll for lunch" Ozero?
Ann Althouse said...
Note that the expert isn't saying let's be bullies, let's be mean. He's calling for "carefully calibrated social pressure."
This is the NHS solution.
The NHS solution is let the ones who are too old starve in their beds, too.
I think the problem in the US is that the brutal shaming kicks in at much higher weight levels than in other countries (specifically Japan and Korea). And once you're that weight it's a lot harder to lose the weight. When it kicks in earlier it's a lot easier to change habits and avoid ever becoming obese in the first place.
Not to say that would work for everyone -- there are still fat people in Japan and Korea (and more today than there were even in the recent, affluent past). But I'm pretty sure you'd cut down on obesity.
Re: other public health issues -- yes, promiscuity obviously imposes huge costs on the public, so this logic would obviously indicate that promiscuous behaviour ought to be held up to contempt and ridicule. But that's not going to happen. The desireability of sexual license is a central plank of modern youth culture.
"It won't work because obesity isn't a strictly behavioral issue.
"
Correct.
Right. So the reason Sally Struthers is fat is that there is no social pressure on Hollywood actresses. Very few doctors would know real science if it bit them on the ass.
"Assume it is effective" Okay, I would still not bother people about their weight. It is none of my business. That is why.
Aren't the fatties a majority voting block now?
My idea of taxing by the pound is probably not a good one then.
Hypothetically speaking, couldn't we shame anyone engaging in other risky behaviors?
I say, bring back stocks in the public square. Pelt the fat bastards with rotten cabbages and sing rude songs [slightly NSFW] at them. That'll make 'em skinny.
Then we can put people into the stocks who hold unpopular opinions and who are global warming deniers. I'm pretty sure we can come up with LOTS of reasons to put people into stocks and shame them.
I like this better, thanks to whoever I think here posted it:
Poverty cures obesity.
12th in wealth and falling!
Subway bread is now 11".
20 cans of coke is now a case.
Starbucks puts inferior beans in its overpriced coffee.
Oh, I know! Let's designate Two Minutes of Hate where the nation can rage against fat people. Once we have them in line, we can go on to some other group the Government selects!
The NHS solution is let the ones who are too old starve in their beds, too.
------
No no no. They didn't let them starve in their beds...they applied social pressure and let those old farts know just how much they disapproved of their continuing to get old and sick. Duh.
That's blatantly wrong. Read the article!
I don't care what the article says; people who have weight issues KNOW they have weight issues.
ban high caloric capacity EBT cards.
So when does "carefully calibrated social pressure" become discrimination worthy of a lawsuit or legislation?
Edutcher, don't you feel weird focusing all your negative attention on me? I think you need shaming.
Paging Dr. Taubes.....
"carefully calibrated social pressure"...studies - PhD
I definitely don't know any laymen who can do that.
Hey, I just noticed that I am a layman. I like that Bagoh20 - Professional Layman.
I'll wager I'm far smaller than "the blond". So why not focus your attention on her instead?
USA is the country with the most STDs. What or who is Obamacare gonna cut to pay for it?
Or that antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea just may do the trick.
Shame won't work.
Shame is a slippery slope.
Once we're allowed to judge others, or indeed be ashamed of our own behavior and choices, that will open up a whole raft of issues that some have been working for more than 30 years to close and forget.
Regarding whether people always know they're overweight----
It's true, they don't always know. Thing is, the doctor doesn't either. Do we need to trot out the list of top-of-their-game athletes and in-shape celebrities who are currently defined as overweight and obese by the medical establishment? I'm sure someone has it.
Also, what I said about racial minorities fits here---people of different backgrounds have different builds, different rates of bone density, and therefore different ideal height/weight ratios.
The shaming should be more forcefully directed at the farmers and agricultural concerns that receive so much government monies in growing corn for making fructose. The sugar content in most foods these days is off the charts because it makes things more palatable . But the consequence is that there is a lot more calories in our diet, especially in the cheaper mass produced foods.
There have been several studies that show that the amount of sugar that is consumed is inhibiting the natural feedback "satiate" response that tells people to stop cramming food into their bellies. Reduce the sugar intake and you drop the desire to always be eating. NPR ran a program on that a week ago.
Shame used to be a useful social brake in society to discourage certain behaviors. Its out of vogue because of "progressive" ideas about self esteem, but it still is useful. It seems like these days the only place it can be used is on social media for people that do not practice "correct think."
So use shame on the source of the problem. Going after the fatties is just treating the symptoms of the disease.
Ann Althouse said...
What is the cost to the taxpayer/insurance customer of treating obesity-related health problems?
Obesity isn't a cost problem, it's an aesthetics problem. If you make fat people lose weight and live longer, they're still going to die eventually of something, and use up (probably more) health resources along the way. It's like the real problem with smokers is that they stink, not that they use too much health care (they actually use less than average during their shortened lives, not to mention the savings to Social Security.)
Fat people are ugly, and they block our view of the attractive thin people behind them. That's why they need to be shamed.
The shaming should be more forcefully directed at the farmers and agricultural concerns that receive so much government monies in growing corn for making fructose. The sugar content in most foods these days is off the charts because it makes things more palatable . But the consequence is that there is a lot more calories in our diet, especially in the cheaper mass produced foods.
There have been several studies that show that the amount of sugar that is consumed is inhibiting the natural feedback "satiate" response that tells people to stop cramming food into their bellies. Reduce the sugar intake and you drop the desire to always be eating. NPR ran a program on that a week ago.
Shame used to be a useful social brake in society to discourage certain behaviors. Its out of vogue because of "progressive" ideas about self esteem, but it still is useful. It seems like these days the only place it can be used is on social media for people that do not practice "correct think."
So use shame on the source of the problem. Going after the fatties is just treating the symptoms of the disease.
I have had my struggle keeping off the pounds and I've done mostly OK. When I had a family, I got up to 235lbs, which was fat. My Mexican wife was undocumented. She was a naturalized citizen so not an undocumented alien, but an undocumented wife, and she could really cook, and Mexican food is not exactly thinning. Now the kids are grown, and she has a much younger man (30 years younger). I guess I'm a tough act to follow. Anyway, after we broke up, I had a glorious mid-life crisis, which I wish I could do again. I lost 50 lbs in a very short time without dieting, and didn't gain it back. I simply lived alone without a cook and kept my refrigerator empty. Works like a charm, and it's cheaper than the gym or Jenny Craig.
Lindsay Fünke: Did you enjoy your meal, Mom? You drank it fast enough.
Lucille Bluth: Not as much as you enjoyed yours. You want your belt to buckle, dear, not your chair.
"I'll wager I'm far smaller than "the blond""
A challenge! Relax, I'll judge this. Send me the photos. And remember I'm not judging clothing here.
She's so easy.
bagoh20 said...
My Mexican wife was undocumented. She was a naturalized citizen so not an undocumented alien, but an undocumented wife, and she could really cook
Apparently.
This is the natural and inevitable result of placing responsibility for health care with the government. This is how institutional evolution works.
health ethics think-tank
There you go. Any organization with 'ethics' in its name should be regarded as promoting violence and murder unless there is strong evidence to the contrary. Especially if the word 'health' is also in the name.
Finally, some vindication.
I haven't been making fun Garage and Inga about their unhealthy weights, I have been applying carefully calibrated social pressure.
Your welcome, fatties.
Your stupid political statements, victimhood, and imaginary children, that is just making fun of still apparently. I will work on my callibration.
This is pretty dumb.
Do you think fat people don't know they're fat? That others few them as unattractive, or even disgusting, because they are fat?
Ignoring hunger is almost impossible. Everything about human nature and human biology is wired to tell us "if you're hungry, EAT". You might as well try shaming a person who is experiencing chronic pain into not taking painkillers.
"If we knew shaming was effective — peer pressure is effective in an awful lot of things — than is that what we should do?"
The problem is, obese people are already being shamed and it's not having any effect. They all see the "Greatest Loser" shows are available on TV, they all see the portrayal of slobs and the like in popular cinema. And it's so ingrained an attitude that occasionally, you'll see stunts like Entertainment Tonight having Vanessa Minillo don a fat suit and be followed by a camera to document the "discrimination".
That article is too optimistic. So's the attitude that peer pressure will have a real effect. The reality is that shaming simply doesn't change some behaviors. We see that with obese people now. Thinking that upping the pressure will work ignores 1. Past history, and 2. The tendency for advocacy groups to arise and defend yet another type of "discrimination".
There's way to much being ignored for this idea to actually work.
I would be happy to have anyone try and "shame" me about being overweight.
It would be my pleasure to kick their ass.
President Mom Jeans does not know me, has never met me. He continually repeats these lies abou myself and Garage. He brings Garage's ill child into tirads against Garage. He needs shaming also. Nice company you keep Edutcher.
Personally I think bad dye jobs are much more unsightly than a few extra pounds. Just sayn'
--You might as well try shaming a person who is experiencing chronic pain into not taking painkillers.--
Bloomie's already covered that.
So much for "take a pill."
"Which matters of individual choice do we get to nose into because it's costing us money?"
You got that backwards. What do we allow ourselves to be billed for, knowing we have no right to control people's individual choices?
Shaming has always worked on women that don't swallow, fat people, alcoholics, bed wetters, and DUI offenders. It's a very old successful tool, it's even been known to cure homosexuality, cerebral palsy and cavities.
WHAT THE FUCK!
Note that the expert isn't saying let's be bullies, let's be mean. He's calling for "carefully calibrated social pressure."
Where I work we have a wellness committee, of which I'm a member, to encourage healthy lifestyles and a green team to encourage environmentally responsible actions. Many, including myself, are tired of the constant emails, contests and other reminders of being fit and ecologically responsible. I'm not sure what "carefully calibrated social pressure" is, but I'm betting the "expert" isn't as expert as he thinks.
When did people stop shaming fat people?
Personally I think bad dye jobs are much more unsightly than a few extra pounds.
LOL. As a tall person who sees lots of bad hair, I second this.
I would be happy to have anyone try and "shame" me about being overweight.
It would be my pleasure to kick their ass.
Point taken. My footballer player son is about 90 lbs "overweight". Piss him off at your own peril.
I am fat. I have been fat for about two decades. I tried losing weight through caloric restriction and exercise and failed repeatedly. I had decided that I would never lose weight as I could not, so I gave up and gained more weight.
Then I learned what made me fat and did something about it. Currently I weigh less than I have in 15 years and am still losing. Thank you Dr. Atkins.
The way to reduce obesity is to tell people what makes them gain weight. Accurate information is key, without it, basically nobody loses weight. With it, anyone who applies the low carb diet will lose weight. It is science.
Shame has nothing to do with it, emotionals stress will just make many people eat more. Not rocket science, I know, but then our entire obesity treatment industry is based on snake oil and nobody wants to upset that billion dollar industry, much less open them up to huge lawsuits for malpractice.
But if you want to lose weight, read and practice Atkins.
Trey
And what if shaming leads some to self-murder, AKA, suicide?
Don't a lot of teen female suicides have to do with body dismorphic issues?
When society dictates preferred body types, and shames people, either subliminally or in-their-face, it often leads to trouble.
In the end, will you be willing to be for continuous therapy and medical treatment for those you have shamed and are not able to overcome their issues?
You want to see an extreme example of what this sort of shaming does? Private Pyle, in Full Metal Jacket. Pyle, besides being totally unsuited for the Corps, is constantly derided/shamed for being a "fat body."
Look how well that turned out.
It often ends disastrously when individuals unable to do so, cannot live up to society's demands and expectations.
"When did people stop shaming fat people?"
Excellent point, all one needs to do is thumb through any women's magazine or watch TV advertising. Libs have spent two decades criticising body image, now it's let's shame fatties.
Not only do fat people know they are fat, so do a lot skinny and normal people. Psychologically, nobody is thin enough.
The problem is that food just taste really good, but I'm sure the government is working on fixing that too.
Chef Mojo
I agree, but you do know "Full Metal Jacket" was just a screen play and movie.
I too, am fat, and have been a good part of my life. I've been shamed and bullied as a child and teenager, and then as a young adult, I was able to get in reasonable shape, just out of lifestyle. Then, as I got older, I gained weight. Been that way for decades. Tried everything, including Atkins to no avail. The shaming and the bullying did not help; in fact, I think it exacerbated the issue by bombarding my with some very difficult emotional stresses. When I stress I eat. It's like people stressing and cutting or skin picking or so on. No amount of shaming will alleviate stress onset compulsions.
Ironically, I got my weight and Type II diabetes better under control due to cancer surgery and a very harsh regimen of chemotherapy from early last May until late November, when I was pronounced cancer free by my oncology team.
I don't recommend it as a weight loss program.
"Or, as The Daily Mail restates it: "Shaming fat people into losing weight is the only way to solve obesity epidemic, leading health academic claims."
It will never happen.
Have you seen how many fat people use food stamps and cards?
Democrats never shame their own, for anything.
@McTriumph:
Well, yes.
I was using FMJ as an analogy, albeit extreme, of the effects of shaming. Of course it's fiction, but the lesson stands, as it often does in fiction.
He's calling for "carefully calibrated social pressure."
For instance, if the social pressure reading was 5.87 and adequate weight loss was achieved, he'd turn the big Social Pressure Dial at Central Headquarters down to 5.86 and see if things held steady.
Or - or! - it could be that the hostility of one group of millions of people toward another group of millions of people isn't something that can be fine-tuned, and we'd be better off avoiding it entirely.
Chef Mojo
God bless and good luck.
I think we should shame Inga some more.
Hey, whatever works, it's survival of the 'fittest'.
bagoh - that's all well and good until you start having digestive problems and then the risk/reward thing gets out of whack with food.
Chef Mojo, good to hear that you are cancer free. Maybe those extra pounds helped you tolerate chemo better.
Moby's are shameful creatures.
I understand that cigarettes work as appetite suppressants. Maybe they should be subsidized.
The cure will kill ya, but at least you won't be carrying around that extra poundage any longer.
Great news, Chef M.
@Inga:
Maybe those extra pounds helped you tolerate chemo better.
Exactly. Nonetheless, it was a horrible experience. I was on a very rare regimen for guys: Taxol + Carboplantin. Vicious, and very aggressively administered with the addition of steroids to offset a very problematic side effect of attempting to die when they hit me with the chemo. Long story short: It worked.
I am thin and fit. That's how I know it has nothing to do with character and self restraint. And even if you're thin and fit, people give you grief and shame every day of your life. Dress up like Michael Jackson and visit the children's playground and see how much carefully calibrated social pressure you get....."Carefully calibrated social pressure". That's a phrase that ranks right up with "Hold my beer and watch this" as an prefatoryy phrase to a disaster....I think if we occasionally attacked fatties and beat them to death, it would encourage many people to stick to their diet. And, of course, the anxiety associated with being fat would speed up the metabolic process. No, we don't need "carefully calibrated" social pressure. Rather, we need angry mobs running fat people down and tearing their bodies apart in a festival of hate. That would keep everybody healthy and trim.
"Or, as The Daily Mail restates it: "Shaming fat people into losing weight is the only way to solve obesity epidemic, leading health academic claims."
This "leading health academic" is Daniel Callahan who was a director of the American eugenics society, the Society for the Study of Social Biology, from 1987 to 1992. We all know how shameful it is to be an advocate of eugenics but that didn't stop Daniel Callahan from being one. Callahan was able to hide his condition (which is not true of the obese) because the eugenics society has not published a list of members since 1956. When asked why they hide their membership they explain that it would lead to criticism and unfair attacks (shaming) since eugenics is so misunderstood. But apparently Callahan is OK with shaming others.
Edutcher, don't you feel weird focusing all your negative attention on me? I think you need shaming.
Finally, after thousands of failed efforts, Inga says something that is actually funny!
One small step for man.
And, by the way, I'm typing this shit on my iPad while I ride the exercise bike at the gym.
Don't try to shame me, fat asses!
The reason I know Callahan was a director of the eugenics society is that the names of the society directors were published on the back of the eugenics society journal, Social Biology.
Shout, wasn't Oop bragging about how "ample" he/she/it was a few days ago?
edutcher,
I can't remember shit (CRS)!
Do you think fat people don't know they're fat? That others few them as unattractive, or even disgusting, because they are fat?
Ignoring hunger is almost impossible. Everything about human nature and human biology is wired to tell us "if you're hungry, EAT". You might as well try shaming a person who is experiencing chronic pain into not taking painkillers.
The purpose of shaming is not to make them lose weight. Science has shown there's no effective way to do that. The purpose of shaming is to make them stay home, out of sight, or at least wear a tent when they go out. Nobody wants to get seasick watching them walk down the street in size 50 shorts and a halter top.
You fat bastards!
I hate you!
How about this. Lets substitute "gay" for "fat" in any of these moronic statements and see how that works for you.
"Shaming gay people into not being gay is the only way to solve AIDS epidemic, leading health academic claims"
Genetics is destiny.
Now have some pancakes and shut the fuck up.
Chief Mojo, what happy news! May it continue.
As to shaming, doesn't work. "I'm just big boned" translates into "This is none of your business, back off!"
Although, come to think about it, illegitimacy, at a heavy cost to society, has soared since we stopped shaming unwed mothers.
I'm so confused.
Shouting Thomas said...
edutcher,
I can't remember shit (CRS)!
Isn't that called taking a Clinton?
I think carefully calibrated shame is an excellent idea. Let's use it on gays and unwed mothers too.
I shall prepare a very carefully calibrated "Fuck You."
Those boobs look calibrated, liz, but not so carefully!
I think we will come to a point where as a senior citizen, your health care will only be approved by a government bureaucrat is if you behave according to the government's desires: no smoking, excessive drinking, or drugs; meet their BMI tables; etc.
Fail any of the standards and you obviously don't care enough to take good care of yourself, so you have not earned the right to this procedure.
Chef Mojo, that sounds like it was extremely difficult. Those agents are so toxic. I recall having to mask up and double glove simply to discard of urine from a chemo patient.
If your, what's considered a fat person, buy a gun, now, right now.
Chef Mojo, good to hear that you beat the big C. Good luck to you.
I graduated from high school in 1964. There were few overweight people back then compared to today. What happened?
I know quite a few overweight people now, and I judge people solely on their outlook on life. So far overweight people are no different than anyone else.
Nice catch Allen S.
They are encouraging the bullying of fat people.
Fat people buy guns.
Fat people shoot up a Jack Lalanne or a some yogurt stand.
There goes the 2nd Amendment for fat people.
Lem, they're going to after fat people. Only they can defend themselves.
Some day, I can envision: The Fat Tea Party.
Eventually, there will be enough citizens expelled from the so-called normalicy of this country that a true revolution of the unwanteds will prevail. Power to the unwanteds!
From a post at The Belmont Club:
...–buying major medical/”catastrophic” insurance policies will no longer be Allowed; nor will private policies: all will become The State Policy. NO exceptions, except the rich who can buy medical care a la carte
–the State will decide what kind of medical care we are allowed, even within their framework some will be denied “covered” services if they see fit
–old people on Medicare will be thrown to the dogs, because the new laws have harsh punishments for hospitals and doctors who spend money on old folks (CAPITATION is baaaack, folks! but its old foes are all for it, now)
... An advisory board of these Insects will be deciding whether you, at age 70, “are worth spending” the money for a hip replacement/angioplasty/cataracts/kidney replacement/etc.
AllenS, lots of folks will say that we don't work hard enough now, don't spend enough time outside, and overindulge because we're by-god-Amuricuns. This is the sloth/gluttony accusation.
A guy named Gary Taubes, a science journalist, has a different explanation. About that time, public health types promulgated a calorie-in, calorie-out explanation for weight gain and started a crusade against fat in food. Take fat out of food, and it tastes like cardboard, so sugar and easily digestible carbohydrates took the place of flavorful fats. Eat that way, and your blood sugar spikes, your insulin cycle goes all out of wack, and you train your body to keep the fat it takes instead of burning it as fuel.
So why have we gotten fatter over the last 40-50 years? According to Taubes, it's because we listened to the experts, and the experts are wrong. Hence the skepticism when those same experts think shaming is the way to go instead of admitting error (or, more accurately, even accepting the possibility of error) in the received wisdom.
slarrow, I remember the food pyramid that we had to look at back then in high school, and I said then, WTF. There was no way in hell that I could consume that much food.
I do have to say, that the corn syrup shit has something to do with it. The government pays farmers and producers to produce this shit, and that should be our first idea of what the fuck is wrong.
kentuckyliz said...
"I think we will come to a point where as a senior citizen, your health care will only be approved by a government bureaucrat is if you behave according to the government's desires: no smoking, excessive drinking, or drugs; meet their BMI tables; etc."
Yes, that's what I think will happen. But first the public has to learn to despise the people who aren't going to be treated so that no one cares what happens to them. So that's why you are supposed to start shaming them. It isn't they who are being treated - it's you. You are learning to despise fellow citizens. Obese - yuck, no don't keep them alive.
But, see, obesity has been redefined which is why there is now an epidemic. Overweight yes, obese, no.
Also, I think that we are the only society where adults drink milk. I could be wrong, but it makes sense.
It's fructose and PUFA's, that are causing the obesity epidemic. Look 'em up Allen, I'm much too "foolish" to attempt to explain them to you.
It seems like a carefully calibrated way to get yourself hurt, badly. Giving an exterminator a load of crap about his job didn't work out too well for that poor unwise pediatrician who was murdered and mutilated, but I'm sure she did it for his own good. It was further proof of his poor character that he reacted badly.
Keep pushing long and often enough, and you will find someone who will push back.
It's the kinder, gentler Inquisition. We're just doing it to save your soul.
Me, I'm off to the gym. You do what you want.
If terminating a pregnancy is within the zone of privacy that surrounds each individual, obesity should be in that zone too. In fact, I think that there is more justification for having a decision about your weight being a protected than there is for a decision regarding abortion.
This "leading health academic" is Daniel Callahan who was a director of the American eugenics society, the Society for the Study of Social Biology, from 1987 to 1992.
Interesting. Found this: Callahan founded the pro-euthanasia Hastings Center 40 years ago and still maintains a stable of murder advocates at Hastings, including Hastings Center Fellow Ezekiel Emanuel and other Obama health-care advisors.
Callahan bases his sophist argument on the false premise that modern health care is too expensive to keep the population alive. The implementation of his program is geared to end forever the progress of science and technology; to erase America's unique optimism; to cancel the idea of the sacredness of human life; and to make all doctors employees of a dictatorship committed to killing the elderly, as the world enters a permanent Dark Age.
I wonder how well Callahan responds to social pressure. Sounds like a disgusting person.
Callahan has been at this for forty years as you say and doesn't care at all what anyone says. But still if we keep pointing out that this man who advocates shaming others for obesity is himself that shameful thing, a promoter of eugenics (and one intent on keeping his shameful society membership and his shameful society itself his own shameful secret), well perhaps this push to shame others will die out - for awhile. It is the poor and the elderly who are most likely to be overweight and it's disgusting to see wealthy liberals talking about making their lives harder.
Yeah. Bully them. That ought to work. We'll just exempt government officials from anti-bullying laws.
Who's going to go shout "Shame on you Charlie Rangel"
The article states, "'It is mind-boggling and on many levels ignorant of actual research,' she said. 'Smoking is a behavior, fatness is a body condition.'"
Body weight and health is regulated by behaviors. Yes, some people can be skinny by eating junk, but eating processed junk food with empty calories is a behavior that is accepted. I am very obsessive with getting the maximum amount of nutrients out of my food. I became a vegetarian after doing a lot of research and I am always making sure my food comes from real products. It does take more time, but i am benefiting with my health, waste line, and my digestive tract finally works. I do have a massive fear of "getting fat", but instead of complaining or starving myself, I chose to read and educate myself on nutrition.
People need to decide for themselves how they want to look and feel and what they want to eat, but this discussion is going to become more heated as health-care becomes more socialized. If Joe Schmo eats food that will cause him to be type 2 diabetic and have a massive heart attack, that isn't only affecting him, but my pocket book. Fatness to the extreme of obesity is a learned and accepted behavior which is no longer a private matter.
Callahan is spewing too much CO2.
He needs to be euthanized.
AEH said...
Fatness to the extreme of obesity is a learned and accepted behavior which is no longer a private matter.
This is a great argument for removing government from healthcare entirely. Obamacare and its successors will turn everyone into fascist busybodies. Lose weight for America!!!
How long did it take from Obamacare passing to this nonsense? The slippery slope seems closer to a cliff.
It doesn't stop consumers of psychotropic drugs, until their minds are conclusively corrupted. A little weed, some blow, but never smack.
It doesn't stop the illegal aliens, even when Americans are displaced at work, school, and throughout society.
It doesn't stop our politicians from exposing us to increased risk of suffering involuntary exploitation, including from cartels, terrorists, and other criminal interests.
It doesn't stop redistributionists (i.e. modern slavers), until they are also chained.
It doesn't cause people from walking over the cliff, if they can assure collateral damage to satiate their envy.
It doesn't stop narcissists (e.g. Obama, Clinton), until the greedy bastards which support them are properly shamed.
It doesn't stop the abortionists (i.e. murderers), until willful genocide takes its toll.
It didn't stop the communists. It didn't stop the socialists. It didn't stop the Caliphate Muslims. It didn't stop the imperial Japanese. It didn't stop Hussein. It didn't stop any left-wing regime.
It is only an effective tactic to be used against individuals who perceive shame and do not receive perverse incentive through dissociation of risk to sustain their dysfunctional behavior.
Marshal--
That's why I make the argument. I want everybody to be healthy, but in the end, each person's body works differently and needs a different healthy diet and same with healthcare. A person can also choose to live life and eat cake every day. In the end, it is up to the individual to decide. Bullying fat people may be mean, but it still allows for personal choice. Eventually, that will be lost. Just look at the school lunch programs. They are generic clusterings of low-nutrient, low-fat, tasteless foods. This is not good nor helpful to society.
I took a look at a video with Daniel Callahan on Youtube and I swear the guy is obese by the present standards - overweight by my standards, obese by government standards.
Be honest. Do I look fat in these threads?
Yes, weight shaming should work. Oh, sure, a certain number of the shamers will get their nuts ripped off and force fed to them, but that's a small price to pay.
> What is the cost to the taxpayer/insurance customer of treating obesity-related health problems?
It's only a cost to taxpayers/others because you wanted it to be a cost.
How does your decision to subsidize something become an obligation for someone else to make that subsidy affordable?
Her - "Do these pants make my butt look big?"
Me - "It's not your pants."
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You can get rid of Puritanism, but the pleasures of moralizing at your neighbor's expense will find an outlet all the same.
Don't bully, educate. The individual must voluntarily accept knowledge to fully appreciate its value and develop skill.
What, exactly, are they teaching in our schools?
The quality of an education system (i.e. transference of knowledge and skill) can be assessed by the self-sufficiency of individuals which emerge from it.
For example, men and women should be capable of extrapolating from general biological, chemical, and physical principles to understand the function of their body.
The state of ignorance is clearly not limited to the purpose and function our sexual organs, especially their integral role in procreation (i.e. evolutionary fitness). It extends to the conscious actions required to sustain basic functions of the human body.
Yup shame them and then put them in mental health programs to retune their self esteems. But for God's sake keep assault weapons away from them
Shame special snowflakes to ensure the blizzard.
Her: Do I look fat in this?
Him: Do I look stupid in this?
Trey
"Shaming gay people into not being gay is the only way to solve AIDS epidemic, leading health academic claims"
Hey, gays have higher incidences of HIV, STD's, depression, suicide, alcohol & drug abuse than the public at large - including fat people.
I'm all for gay shaming.
One of the problems with shaming people is that, I'm not sure people actually know what to do to actually be thin.
I'm reading the book why we get fat, and it mentions that stuff like excercise is not the best way to,actually lose weight.
Also calorie in calorie out doesnt work. So if people are shamed into losing weight and then so calorie in/calorie out or running marathons they won't necessarily even lose the weight.
It looks more and more like Atkins had it right all along. Eat lots of meat, and veggies, Stay away from carbs.
People have to also recognize that they will not all be the ideal weight. Some people have a natural weight that is more or less than the average and tht is what they will gravitate to.
DADvocate wrote:
Note that the expert isn't saying let's be bullies, let's be mean. He's calling for "carefully calibrated social pressure."
Where I work we have a wellness committee, of which I'm a member, to encourage healthy lifestyles and a green team to encourage environmentally responsible actions. Many, including myself, are tired of the constant emails, contests and other reminders of being fit and ecologically responsible. I'm not sure what "carefully calibrated social pressure" is, but I'm betting the "expert" isn't as expert as he thinks.
that's a good point. You have a wellness committee that has experts on healthy lifestyles and how to achieve them. If they are going to have to apply social pressure that is carefully calibrated, aren't they going to have to have a bullying committee with experts on bullying who can actually calibrate the level of social pressure properly?
We need Bully experts!
the anti-smoking campaign effectively stigmatized smokers, particularly when offices required them to leave the building for a smoke. Both obesity and smoking are behaviors that can be altered. A carrot-and-stick approach seems like the right strategy, with employers providing incentives for weight loss.
Hmmm, well, if we're talking about what's effective, I notice that as matter of historical record there was a sharp decrease in obesity, type II diabetes, heart disease, and even MS during the years the year 1939 and 1944 in Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, and a few other European nations.
We should try and find out what they did and repeat it here ...
One of the problems with shaming people is that, I'm not sure people actually know what to do to actually be thin.
I'm not sure thin people realize this. Our society already exerts far more than "[C]arefully calibrated social pressure" to be thin. This "leading health academic" is an idiot.
Oh, he's a Harvard guy. Make sense now.
Both obesity and smoking are behaviors that can be altered.
There's a crucially important difference, though. Nobody has to smoke to live. All you have to do to stop smoking is... stop.
Eating is quite a bit more complicated. Not only is it a basic human instinct to eat more calories than you expend, figuring out your calorie budget and matching it to what you eat can be challenging.
When I was in my 20's, I was very thin. I had to eat as much as I possibly could just to maintain my weight. The company for which I worked had a good cafeteria, and I piled my tray high at every lunch. I lost three pounds every weekend, when I did not have that huge amount of food.
My best friend was fat. We ate lunch together, and sometimes dinner. It was a testament to the strength of our friendship that it survived those meals, because while I was eating as much as I could hold, she was eating things like salad with no dressing. If she ate one cookie, she would gain two pounds. Her entire life was spent battling body fat, and the only thing that finally enabled her to lose weight was terminal cancer.
Shaming -- or "social pressure" -- is indeed bullying, and people who advocate or practice it should be ashamed of themselves.
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