Althouse: "I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white."

May 24, 2012

"I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white."

"It should not and cannot be enforced in the gray for those who are in the thin blue line."

66 comments:

Nom, nom... said...: So Zimmerman championed against public corruption and lazy-assed public union employees.

No wonder they wanted to bring him down.; 5/24/12, 9:53 AM
Anonymous said...: In all fairness, the police have no constitutional duty to protect you, which SCOTUS has reinforce at least three times, so why not take naps and go to parties while on duty?

Rot starts at the head. Elect corrupt politicians and government institutions automatically become corrupt.

Remind me again why the left is so willing to put ever more power into the hands of the government, which will ultimately be enforced by the police?; 5/24/12, 9:53 AM
bagoh20 said...: This info pushes the case both ways, so everyone can claim it proves their side. Yaaaa! It says nothing about who started the assault that led to the deadly force used by both men where one had better technology.; 5/24/12, 9:53 AM
Damon said...: It is such a sad tradgedy on many levels. It is a shame that Zimmerman, who appears to be a upstanding citizen on so many levels, put himself in a place that this could happen. That zealousness for justice has taken away any chance he ever had at being in law enforcement. It is also a tradgedy that a kid died, but we can all agree that the kid was a punk. His twitter account and school behavior paint a classic picture of a punk.; 5/24/12, 10:04 AM
edutcher said...: The more we find out about this, the more it looks like Zero's son should have looked like George - if Zero was something other than a corrupt Chicago machine small c communist.

As I say, cold streak.; 5/24/12, 10:12 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: It's always bizarre when a volunteer fireman gets charged with arson.; 5/24/12, 10:19 AM
Pastafarian said...: It's interesting that the author thought the big news item here was how 'cozy' Zimmerman was with the cops, because a security camera shows him walking through their facility "unattended".

But then the story mentions that Zimmerman publicly called the cops out for laziness and corruption, and he went after the cops for covering up the beating of a BLACK homeless man by the son of an officer.

Sorry, bagoh, but I don't see how this article cuts both ways.; 5/24/12, 10:21 AM
traditionalguy said...: This also illustrates the insider/outsider culture in predominantly male police organisations.

It is a self defense bonding of the police who know outsiders will never understand their job's frustrations and pressures.

A longtime familiar face, be he an attorney, an assistant DA, or a bondsman is superfially accepted too. That is a friendship base on trust. Zimmerman had made it that far.

All of that is normal. But it leads to a common group pressure that treats outsiders as an enemy force.

In a democratic political entity this "enemy force" must be sub grouped into a feared/respected group 1 consisting of of"righteous Citizens" who are usually politically connected at election time, and then all of the others default into group 2 who are treated as maggots to be dominated and abused.

The issues that arise are usually misperception issues when police treat group 1s as if they are group 2s.

Experienced officers teach the younger officers to be very careful until you get confirmation by a person's status from clues in cars, clothing, body language, and speech.

Zimmerman being a wannabe policeman did not have that training and experience to know that basic rule.

Now righteous black citizens are ready to deman to be grouped as 1s too. The Political power emotional source comes from their years of being stuck in Group 2 status for no reason except what ??? And they do not believe that it's only hoodies.

One thinks back on Skip gates breaking into his own house. The sensitivity is real.; 5/24/12, 10:22 AM
Pastafarian said...: Mitchell, it's even more bizarre when that fireman gets charged, despite a complete lack of evidence against him, and a preponderance of evidence exonerating him.; 5/24/12, 10:24 AM
Pastafarian said...: Tradguy, here are your two groups:

Group one: People who care enough about their community to do ride-alongs with the cops, and do community watch; and care enough about right and wrong to take a public stand against corruption and the beating of an innocent (black) man.

Group two: People who smoke pot-marijuana, get expelled from school for drug possession, and are caught with a backpack full of women's jewelry and burglary tools.

Oh, the injustice of our Two Americas.; 5/24/12, 10:28 AM
Pastafarian said...: And somehow I forgot to include in Group Two: People who smash the heads of their elders into the sidewalk and go all MMA on their ass with a ground-and-pound beating to the face, because they don't like to be followed and observed.; 5/24/12, 10:30 AM
Shanna said...: Interesting use of colors by GZ in that statement.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove. GZ didn't like that cops were lazy and taking naps during work. That's a pretty normal/respectable reaction and doubly so in someone who was seeing their neighborhood have a bunch of crime with the cops not being too helpful.; 5/24/12, 10:36 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: The law is written in black and white.. thrown into a recycling bin.. and then its converted back into a less than 'white' paper..

And if you don't put the paper in the correct recycling bin, the town truck finds you and runs you over.; 5/24/12, 10:37 AM
traditionalguy said...: Pasta...You are right that Zimmerman wanted to do police work. You may also be right that Martin was a maggot/punk/subhuman. I didn't know him and he was unavailable for comment. His parents were nice folks as was his brother in TV interviews. But who knows.

But in national politics this death remains a symbol of an innocent teenager with a bag of skittles and an ice tea being targeted without probable cause except for walking around in the wrong place. That still excites the blacks who have long memories of their family's experiences after 1865 and until about 1965.

That's why a public trial has always been needed to learn what did happen and what did not happen.; 5/24/12, 10:47 AM
bagoh20 said...: "Sorry, bagoh, but I don't see how this article cuts both ways."

I think you laid out both sides in your comment pretty well, and I agree that the pro Z aspect is a lot stronger, but what people want to believe is what matters, and so both sides of this story will get plenty of juice.

There is a palpable chill on the anti-Z side as the evidence mounts to show that Z's story is reinforced by most everything, and their side was mostly just emotional lynch mob. There was a time and place where a Zimmerman would already be hanged for being the wrong race to get sympathy or a fair trial. For some, skin color still is the most important information, even if it's only apparent color.; 5/24/12, 10:56 AM
Pastafarian said...: tradguy, I'm pretty sure he wasn't literally targeted until after he beat the living shit out of Zimmerman.

How many blows to the head are you supposed to take before fighting back? You realize that any one of those blows could have been lethal, right? You punch a man in the nose with the back of his head against concrete, and you can easily either shove the bones of his face into the front of his brain, or cave in the rear of the skull back near the medulla oblongata.

The fact that Zimmerman didn't shoot him until after sustaining as much damage is a tribute to how much restraint Zimmerman had, how hesitant he was to draw his weapon.

I never said Martin was "subhuman" -- he was a human who was hopped up on pot, had a history of burglary, and beat the living shit out of another human. I'm sure his family is charming; and it's apparent that people are drawing all sorts of inappropriate symbolism from this case. I, for one, wouldn't imprison a decent man for defending himself based on how charming his attacker's family is, or how loudly the riled-up mob is screaming for blood.

But hey, let's "trust the jury." Maybe they'll acquit. Let's roll those dice, it's not our ass on the line.; 5/24/12, 10:59 AM
Anonymous said...: TradGuy,

this death remains a symbol of an innocent teenager with a bag of skittles and an ice tea being targeted without probable cause

Does it? The killing of a teenager with nothing but a bag of skittles and an ice tea (have these even been verified or is this just more fabrication to reinforce the preferred "whites bad, blacks good" narrative?) without probably cause is indeed murder.

Since more Americans think he should notbe charged with murder than those who think he should, claiming Martin is a symbol for being killed without "probable cause" is suspect at the very least. Even blacks are almost evenly split on this.; 5/24/12, 10:59 AM
William said...: Well, the lesson the police wanted to teach Zimmerman on the ride alongs was to stay in the car.....There's a difference between being guilty and being suspicious. Trayvon was not guilty of any crime, but there are reasons besides frothing racism to describe his appearance as being suspicious.....There were drugs in Trayvon's system. The argument now is that, well, marijuana makes you peaceful and mellow. Maybe not. It also makes you paranoic and fearful. In the store, Trayvon looked like he was in his own little world. He didn't look like the kind of kid who would take kindly to an invasion of his personal space. Maybe the overreaction was not in Zimmerman's surveillance, but in Trayvon's overreaction to that surveillance.....I don't understand the liberal argument. The neighborhood watch is allowed to eyeball young black men if and only if they are actively engaged in crime. On all other occasions they are guilty of racism for looking askance at them. Is that the way it works.; 5/24/12, 11:02 AM
cubanbob said...: traditionalguy said...

What makes you so sure Martin was just innocently walking around instead casing homes to break in to?
Considering he was caught at school with a bag of wedding rings......

Lets wait for the trial.

If the courts have ruled there is no obligation on the part of the police to protect then why is there an obligation to pay taxes to pay for the police? Taking money under pretenses would appear to be a fraud.; 5/24/12, 11:04 AM
Shanna said...: punk/subhuman

punk /=/ subhuman

That's why a public trial has always been needed to learn what did happen and what did not happen.

You don't need a show trial to 'learn what did happen'. The evidence doesn't change just because you go to trial about it.

And if this has become a national symbol of anything, it because people have blatantly ignored the evidence in hopes of promoting a fantasy about what people think happened. Poor 12 yo with skittles and iced tea is more fun to rant about than poor 17 yo football player on suspension from school for mj use innocently beating the shit out of older shorter man got shot.; 5/24/12, 11:06 AM
Fen said...: But in national politics this death remains a symbol of an innocent teenager with a bag of skittles and an ice tea being targeted without probable cause except for walking around in the wrong place

Only to idiots.; 5/24/12, 11:21 AM
Fen said...: And wasn't "targeted". Your little pothead thief caught Zimmerman's attention because he was acting strange - wandering around in the rain at night casing out houses.

If Martin had behaved like the character in your Skittles Fantasy, the most he would have gotten from Zimmerman was a nod as he drove by.; 5/24/12, 11:26 AM
traditionalguy said...: The comments today remind me of the days when a stranger in smaller communities was fair game for arrest on sight.

They were said to be loitering. or they were without visible means of support. And just being in the wrong place Disturbed the Peace."

This was all before appointed defense lawyers for criminal defendants were discovered to be in the Constitution after a homeless drifter from Missouri named Gideon was arrested for something in Florida in 1963.

Before Gideon these arrests were used to bring in fine money, or replenish the free labor at the Chain Gang Camps run by the local pols for profit.

I wonder if a Great Depression of 2012 may yet return us to those days complete with Drones run by HSA agents to catch the loitering men in hoodies and intern them in ObmaCamps.; 5/24/12, 11:29 AM
Fen said...: traditionalgy: "Look! Squirrel!"; 5/24/12, 11:31 AM
cubanbob said...: traditionalguy said...
The comments today remind me of the days when a stranger in smaller communities was fair game for arrest on sight.

Hmm a stranger acting strangely in a small community that has been plagued by a rash of burglaries. Fixed that for you. Now lets wait for the trial.; 5/24/12, 11:33 AM
Strelnikov said...: As a matter of evidence, this new materials doesn't "push" the case against Zimmerman either way for a simple reason: None of the material is admissable as evidence in a trial. Its only importance will be to the race hustling media as further"proof" of the vast conspiracy. On the other hand, I guess if Judge Ito hears the case it might me allowed in. Or someone else with as little knowledge of the rules of evidence.; 5/24/12, 11:34 AM
traditionalguy said...: Hi Fen. Stay classy. I may yet have to apologize to you as the the best guesser after the trial evidence becomes known. Stay tuned.; 5/24/12, 11:35 AM
Cedarford said...: Maybe now that Zimmerman is trapped in the gray area between "law being written in black or white", he can appreciate that Justice is not blind anal worship if each clause of each law that could be brought to bear in any situation.

Prosecutors can apply the law, cleverly, to bag almost anyone for something...as Secret Police head Lavrenty Beria informed Comrade Stalin.

Zimmerman stands in the gray area, indicted by prosecutors under political pressure to "find the right law or subclause" We in power need to put Zimmerman away.
Now he knows a little more about the real world past his anal outlook on law as written in black and white and best vigorously applied to all by zero tolerance cops and prosecutors.; 5/24/12, 11:36 AM
Fen said...: "Stay classy" said the race-mongerer...; 5/24/12, 11:38 AM
Steve Koch said...: You have to wonder what impact the UFC (MMA corp run by Dana White) is having on our culture, especially on young males.

In the UFC, it is not unusual to see a fighter just beat the crap out of a fighter who is no longer able to defend himself (ground and pound). It is not unusual to see an unconscious fighter get hit in the head. SOP in the UFC is to keep hitting an unconscious fighter until the ref jumps in. It is routine to see plenty of blood flowing in the UFC fights. It is routine to see fighters get hit in the head repeatedly (with nothing to protect their head). Kicking a guy who is horizontal on the ground is legal so long as you don't kick him in the head.

The UFC is very popular and getting more popular everyday.; 5/24/12, 11:39 AM
I Callahan said...: The comments today remind me of the days when a stranger in smaller communities was fair game for arrest on sight.

Sort of like trying a guy for a crime for which there is no evidence a crime was actually committed?

Someone's irony meter is beyond repair.; 5/24/12, 11:41 AM
Fen said...: No kidding. Tradguy's stance on Mob Rule is situational.; 5/24/12, 11:43 AM
Anonymous said...: traditionalguy adds a lot to the conversation here on many topics, but on the issue of race, he has the "liberal" narrative drilled so deeply into his pyche that he cannot rationally consider the issues.; 5/24/12, 11:45 AM
Matt Sablan said...: If people apply the law the way Cedarford implies, they are actually breaking the law, or the law needs to be reformed.

Good law can be applied consistently and fairly without resulting in tyranny.; 5/24/12, 11:48 AM
Richard Dolan said...: Every so often a criminal case morphs into a cultural phenomenon, and the Zimmerman case is well along in that trajectory. If it is ever tried, the case will turn closely on what happened that night -- who started the fight, whether Zimmerman was reasonably in fear of serious injury, etc. None of the rest of the stuff (like this video) will surface in the courtroom, although it may color the attitudes of the eventual venire.

What's striking is how often criminal cases that transcend themselves in this way turn on issues of race. Think of the Bernie Goetz case (NYC subway shooter), or OJ (!), Duke Lacrosse (!!), the Central Park jogger, the LA police brutality case that spawned the riots ('can't we all just get along?') and so many more.; 5/24/12, 11:49 AM
Paul said...: but.. but.. but.. Zimmerman is a RACIST! Just ask Jessie and Sharpston!; 5/24/12, 12:08 PM
damikesc said...: But in national politics this death remains a symbol of an innocent teenager with a bag of skittles and an ice tea being targeted without probable cause except for walking around in the wrong place. That still excites the blacks who have long memories of their family's experiences after 1865 and until about 1965.

1) Any idea how many blacks didn't have family in the US before 1865?

2) Trayvon was innocent? Of what? Apparently he was not innocent of assault and battery.

3) Do you have evidence of Zimmerman normally profiling black kids? If not, why was THIS specific one profiled?

You have to wonder what impact the UFC (MMA corp run by Dana White) is having on our culture, especially on young males.

No more so than any other sport out there.

In the UFC, it is not unusual to see a fighter just beat the crap out of a fighter who is no longer able to defend himself (ground and pound). It is not unusual to see an unconscious fighter get hit in the head. SOP in the UFC is to keep hitting an unconscious fighter until the ref jumps in. It is routine to see plenty of blood flowing in the UFC fights. It is routine to see fighters get hit in the head repeatedly (with nothing to protect their head). Kicking a guy who is horizontal on the ground is legal so long as you don't kick him in the head.

The UFC is very popular and getting more popular everyday.

I'm assuming you've never seen UFC, because I have and what you're describing never happens.

In fact, the ref is FREQUENTLY criticized for stopping the fight too quickly because the moment the guy on bottom is doing nothing to defend himself or seems incapable of doing anything, they stop the fight. Which is why UFC has fewer injuries than boxing, pro wrestling, football, etc.

It's extremely unusual to see an unconscious fighter get hit at all. The ref watches the fight closely and stops it at the first real sign of danger.

And routine to see blood? Blood is considerably more regular in boxing than in UFC.

And kicking a guy horizontal in the ground isn't legal. Hasn't been in a long time now.

Can you name the last fight you saw where a guy horizontal on the ground got kicked?; 5/24/12, 12:08 PM
Steve Koch said...: Richard Dolan said...
"Every so often a criminal case morphs into a cultural phenomenon, and the Zimmerman case is well along in that trajectory."

The dems chose to turn this case into a cultural phenomenon for corrupt cynical political reasons. Initially it was to motivate the black dem base, to make blacks think they need federal protection from oppressive whites (even though there is far more black on white crime than there is white on black crime). Too bad that the white oppressor, Zimmerman, turned out to be an hispanic who had demonstrated against the police for tormenting a black guy.

The dems are also demonstrating to those who carry a gun that defending yourself may turn into a nightmare. The dems have been for gun control forever but it was a loser politically for them. This is just one more example of the dems using the courts and the threat of mob violence to accomplish what they cannot accomplish legislatively.

"If it is ever tried, the case will turn closely on what happened that night -- who started the fight, whether Zimmerman was reasonably in fear of serious injury, etc.".

It is very unlikely that we will ever know who threw the first punch. There is no doubt that suffering a broken nose, two black eyes, and deep cuts to the back of your head while it is being repeatedly slammed into concrete is a serious injury. So the question was not whether Z man feared serious injury, the question was what he should do after being seriously injured and how long he would remain conscious while his head was getting rammed into concrete.; 5/24/12, 12:09 PM
Anonymous said...: TradGuy,

The comments today remind me of the days when a stranger in smaller communities was fair game for arrest on sight.

Only by jumping to illogical conclusions and ignore other relevant facts.

1. Martin wasn't just hanging out.
2. Zimmerman wasn't arresting Martin. He was observing a suspicious person in a neighborhood that had recently scene a rash of crimes.
3. Martin was black teen-ager in a hoodie acting high

These are valid reasons to challenge someone, i.e., ask them who they are and what they are doing there.; 5/24/12, 12:18 PM
Steve Koch said...: "I'm assuming you've never seen UFC, because I have and what you're describing never happens."

I watch UFC several times a week and everything I said is true. What you said is not true.

"It's extremely unusual to see an unconscious fighter get hit at all. The ref watches the fight closely and stops it at the first real sign of danger."

Not true. Frequently a guy will get blasted, hit the ground such that his head bounces when he hits the ground, and then his opponent will leap on him to blast him until the ref jumps in. It is normal for to get in at least one or more blows while the guy is down on the ground.

"And routine to see blood? Blood is considerably more regular in boxing than in UFC."

Not true. Boxing has much larger gloves, you can't use your elbows, knees or kicks, and you can't hit a guy on the ground. There is way more blood in MMA.

"And kicking a guy horizontal in the ground isn't legal. Hasn't been in a long time now."

Not true. Guys on the ground routinely get kicked everywhere except the head.

"Can you name the last fight you saw where a guy horizontal on the ground got kicked?"

Yeah, last night. You must be thinking about getting kicked in the head on the ground.; 5/24/12, 12:19 PM
Michael K said...: The piece says nothing useful except that a nation that bans self defense is uncomfortable with a young man who is familiar with cops and likes their company.; 5/24/12, 12:22 PM
Michael K said...: "This also illustrates the insider/outsider culture in predominantly male police organisations."

Yes, that certainly can be seen. After all, peaceably assembled outsiders are beating and stabbing them in downtown Chicago.

Zimmerman made a mistake volunteering for the neighborhood watch. How was he to know he would encounter an aspiring burglar ?; 5/24/12, 12:26 PM
Michael K said...: "innocent teenager with a bag of skittles and an ice tea being targeted without probable cause except for walking around in the wrong place."

Your definition of innocent includes young men walking around in the rain in a gated community where they don't live ?

And targeted means calling 911 and reporting it ?

If Trayvon had gone straight to his father's girlfriend's condo, instead of doubling back and picking a fight, he'd be alive.; 5/24/12, 12:30 PM
Nathan Alexander said...: Hey, Traditional Guy,
When you are going to show 1/1000000000000000000000000000000th of the empathy/sympathy that you obviously have for Trayvon Martin to the white victims of blacks seeking retribution for their false view of the Zimmerman-Martin shooting?

When are you going to apologize for your part in hyping that false view?

When are you going to show some remorse for the body count you helped inspire?

(one dead jogger in Missouri, at least a dozen others beaten badly, possibility of full recovery for some still unknown)

Nothing justifies this wave of hate crime by blacks.

Nothing.

Until you take responsibility for that, you have no room to talk about Zimmerman in any judgmental manner.; 5/24/12, 12:33 PM
Michael K said...: "They were said to be loitering. or they were without visible means of support. And just being in the wrong place Disturbed the Peace."

I wonder what the crime rates were then ? Do you know ? What happened to New York City after "squeegee men" were rounded up ?

Blacks are the most common victims of black crime yet they hate the police. Even black officers. It is part of the dysfunctional black culture in this country.; 5/24/12, 12:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Steve Koch,

You have to wonder what impact the UFC (MMA corp run by Dana White) is having on our culture, especially on young males.

Not really. This is the same hysteria surrounding video games, movies, porn, etc. All presented without an ounce of evidence. Mere inuendo substitutes for actual knowledge.

In the UFC, it is not unusual to see a fighter just beat the crap out of a fighter who is no longer able to defend himself (ground and pound).

Yes it is. The refs are fantastic and stop fights immediately before things get out of control. This does happen, but it's rare and unusual.

Also, "ground and pound" is not "beating the crap out of a fighter who is no longer able to defend himself". Ground and pound is a technique used to take someone to the ground and wear down their defenses and energy, i.e., against those who are very capable and indeed are doing a good job defending themselves. It's a technique used by those who are good grapplers vs those who are not.

It is not unusual to see an unconscious fighter get hit in the head.

Yes it is.

SOP in the UFC is to keep hitting an unconscious fighter until the ref jumps in.

Wrong. Many stunned fighters get hit again, but rarely do knocked out fighters get hit. The refs are all over it.

It is routine to see plenty of blood flowing in the UFC fights.

So?

It is routine to see fighters get hit in the head repeatedly (with nothing to protect their head).

Except their arms and other defensive techniques.

Kicking a guy who is horizontal on the ground is legal so long as you don't kick him in the head.

So? It's a fight and the rules are very clear. The fighters know it's a fight before anything even starts. In fact, they all want fight. It's a controlled environment that allows them to fight without either getting seriously injured.

The vetting process for UFC fights is extensive. No one gets to a UFC fight and is surprised by getting hurt, getting punched, or kicked while on the ground.

Also, why are you hijacking the thread to bash UFC, when the point of the post is Zimmerman?; 5/24/12, 12:38 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/24/12, 12:38 PM
traditionalguy said...: A note to the fearful commenters: Liberal/conservative is not a racial construct. I have many black business men friends in Atlanta who are more conservative than anyone else that I know. They mean it too. Herman Cain for example.

Open your minds. The human race has always shared 99.99% similarities and few appearance differences. It's that old devil tribalism that makes our undeveloped DNA want to get mean to outsiders and then pat itself on the back for doing them harm.

And the easy assertion that blacks want a return to lynch mobs over Martin's killing is frankly stupid. All lynch mobs in the South were collections of the meanest white men showing off their power by murdering poor black men and Jews.

The imaginary evil black man was mostly a useful myth to gain and keep political power in the South. No one who is sane wants to see it back again!

And few sincere Christians are uncomfortable anymore sitting with with blacks. The skin color is not even visible anymore. The blacks, the half blacks, the 1/4 Blacks to light browns, the Hispanic speakers and the various Asians are men and co-worshipers.

There is one Spirit and one Lord who created them all and who has mercy on us all for His glory. Go complain to Him.

Catholics and Pentacostals usually have integrated congregations because they are readier to accept the Holy Spirit's authority from God's telling Peter 3 times in a row, "don't call unclean what I have called clean," when God sent Peter on a mission to bring the non-Jewish Roman Cornelius into the Church." Peter was never stoned for that, but it was a close call.; 5/24/12, 12:52 PM
Fen said...: A note to the fearful commenters

Projection and "Squirrel!" in the lead. Thanks for that diqualifier, no need to read any further.; 5/24/12, 12:56 PM
Steve Koch said...: Ken said...
Steve: "You have to wonder what impact the UFC (MMA corp run by Dana White) is having on our culture, especially on young males."

"Not really. This is the same hysteria surrounding video games, movies, porn, etc. All presented without an ounce of evidence. Mere inuendo substitutes for actual knowledge."

Haha, I made no hysterical claims, I just asked what impact the UFC has on the culture, especially young me. Straw man.

Steve:
"In the UFC, it is not unusual to see a fighter just beat the crap out of a fighter who is no longer able to defend himself (ground and pound)."

Ken:
"Yes it is. The refs are fantastic and stop fights immediately before things get out of control. This does happen, but it's rare and unusual."

Yes, it does happen, it is not unusual, and the quality of the refs is uneven. For sure the refs usually wait until the fighters can no longer defend themselves and then it takes a bit for them to stop the fight (they are very careful not to take a shot on the way in so that slows them down).

"Also, "ground and pound" is not "beating the crap out of a fighter who is no longer able to defend himself". Ground and pound is a technique used to take someone to the ground and wear down their defenses and energy, i.e., against those who are very capable and indeed are doing a good job defending themselves. It's a technique used by those who are good grapplers vs those who are not."

Ground and pound is what happens when one fighter mounts another, giving him the opportunity to beat the crap out of the downed fighter. It frequently is the beginning of the end of the fight.

"It is not unusual to see an unconscious fighter get hit in the head.

Yes it is."

Wrong yet again. The dominant fight almost always beats the less aggressive, slower, more cautious ref to the downed, unconscious fighter to get in at least one last blow.

"SOP in the UFC is to keep hitting an unconscious fighter until the ref jumps in.

Wrong. Many stunned fighters get hit again, but rarely do knocked out fighters get hit. The refs are all over it."

Wrong yet again. The dominant fight almost always beats the less aggressive, slower, more cautious ref to the downed, unconscious fighter to get in at least one last blow.

"It is routine to see plenty of blood flowing in the UFC fights.

So?"

Just stating a fact. UFC is a blood sport.

"It is routine to see fighters get hit in the head repeatedly (with nothing to protect their head).

Except their arms and other defensive techniques."

Until they are overwhelmed. Then they are not getting hit by big boxing gloves, they are getting hit with elbows, knees, kicks, as well as fists in small MMA gloves.

"Kicking a guy who is horizontal on the ground is legal so long as you don't kick him in the head.

So? It's a fight and the rules are very clear."

That is true, I am just stating reality (somebody else said it was illegal to kick another fighter when they are down on the ground).

"It's a controlled environment that allows them to fight without either getting seriously injured."

Depends on your definition of serious injury. There are lots of injuries, some, like broken orbital sockets, broken shoulders, torn up knees, etc, are obviously serious.

"Also, why are you hijacking the thread to bash UFC, when the point of the post is Zimmerman?"

Wondering if UFC probably has a bad influence on a lot of young men who see grounding and pounding a defenseless opponent as OK.

5; 5/24/12, 1:04 PM
bagoh20 said...: "And the easy assertion that blacks want a return to lynch mobs over Martin's killing is frankly stupid."

Apparently you don't read the news. The mobs have already happened over this. They have killed, and tried to kill Whites for only being white, right now in our time, before your very eyes, and, as Nathan pointed out above, people who have acted like you have encouraged that, and should take responsibility for what you have done. You acted like the racists in the south who didn't do the lynching, but stood on the porches goading them on.

Just stop it.; 5/24/12, 1:16 PM
Steve Koch said...: "Ground and pound is a technique used to take someone to the ground"

Not it isn't, it has nothing to do with taking someone to the ground. Ground and pound is what you do after you have taken somebody to the ground and mounted them. There are several ways to take your foe down. You might shoot and take them down with classic wrestling techniques. You might trip them as in judo or jujitsu. You might punch them in the kidney or kick them in the head or pounce on them after they slip or wear them down with a barrage of strikes or on and on and on.

The point is that ground and pound says absolutely nothing about how you got your foe to the ground or even how you mounted them, it just means that somehow you have achieved a dominant mount position and can now beat the crap out of your foe.

Ground and pound means that a fighter is horizontal on the ground, in a bad defensive position, and is getting pounded.

You certainly don't have to be a good grappler to ground and pound someone, you can knock them silly with a strike and then pounce on them while they are down on the ground.; 5/24/12, 1:20 PM
bagoh20 said...: Why is OK to punch your opponent when on his feet, but some kind of atrocity when on the ground, where many UFC fighters prefer and are better at fighting?

This is a sport where fighting on the ground is where more than half the techniques are used and designed to be used, because it mimics real fighting. It's a sport with rules that protect participants, and it's safer than many others.

I agree it may encourage young men to fight more effectively, when we wish they wouldn't, but it also respects stopping when you have won.

Both men here were probably influenced by it some. Martin in trying to knock Z out, and Z in realizing he might be knocked out leaving his assailant to murder him at will.

I would have used my weapon too, if I was attacked like that scenario.; 5/24/12, 1:36 PM
Steve Koch said...: bagoh20 said...
"Why is OK to punch your opponent when on his feet, but some kind of atrocity when on the ground...?

Both men here were probably influenced by it (UFC ground and pound) some. Martin in trying to knock Z out, and Z in realizing he might be knocked out leaving his assailant to murder him at will. I would have used my weapon too, if I was attacked like that scenario."

My original question was whether UFC ground and pound influences young men. Your answer seems to be that it does and that if you are getting grounded and pounded, it is logical to pull out your gun and shoot your foe. I agree with both of your points.

"It's a sport with rules that protect participants, and it's safer than many others."

It is a blood sport that could easily be made safer.

"I agree it may encourage young men to fight more effectively, when we wish they wouldn't, but it also respects stopping when you have won."

Fighters stop when the refs hurl their bodies into the melee to stop the battering. Fighters don't stop when they have won, they stop when the bell rings or the ref forcibly stops them. A young man (such as Trayvon, maybe) who is doing a ground and pound has no ref to forcibly stop him.; 5/24/12, 2:07 PM
William said...: In other contexts, tradguy seems a person of good will and intelligence. That's why his obdurate defense of Trayvon seems so wrong headed. It's possible that Zimmerman was officious, perhaps obnoxious in his surveillance of Trayvon. But it's just as likely that Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman because of his objections to that surveillance. Obnoxious survellance is one offense. Giving someone a beating is another. I don't see either equivalence or justification......I used to ride the subway off hours. Most of the passengers were black. Like me, they were travelling to jobs that sucked and had a numb, withdrawn appearance. Every so often someone like Trayvon would walk through the car, checking things out. The passengers would stiffen a little and pretend that they weren't looking at him. As noted, the passengers were mostly black. Their wariness was not based on racism.....Trayvon was dressed in a way to set off alarm bells. With time and maturation, he might have learned that projecting menace was not the same thing as earning respect, but that's where his head was at.....I just don't see how you can do a calculus of the night's events without taking into account Trayvon's appearance, drug use, and aggression.; 5/24/12, 2:10 PM
Shanna said...: /conservative is not a racial construct. [snipped description of black friends]. Open your minds.

You are the one who is making this racial. (And you’re being quite condescending about it too) The rest of us are talking about whether it is reasonable to defend yourself from the “ground and pound”, in which any punch could be your last. Are you supposed to just hope this beating you’re getting isn’t fatal?

Projection

Seriously. If I felt like psychoanalyzing I would come up with a bad ‘mean white men’ past for tradguy that he is forever trying to absolve himself of. Because that's how this comes off, particularly to someone of a younger generation who has lived an entirely different reality.

Apparently you don't read the news.

Or understand a metaphor.; 5/24/12, 2:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Steve,

Ground and pound is what you do after you have taken somebody to the ground and mounted them.

Wrong, but whatever. What does this have to do with Zimmerman again?

The point is that ground and pound says absolutely nothing about how you got your foe to the ground

Fine, you want to continue your hijack, I didn't mention how to take someone to the ground. The new hybridization of fighting styles can be seen in the technique of "ground and pound" developed by wrestling based UFC pioneers such as Dan Severn, Don Frye and Mark Coleman. These wrestlers realized the need for the incorporation of strikes on the ground as well as on the feet and incorporated ground striking into their grappling based styles. Mark Coleman stated at UFC 14 his strategy was to "Ground him and pound him" which may be the first televised use of the term ground and pound. In other words, getting them on the ground to pound on them and wear them down. Matt Hughes does it all the time from side control and half guard and the guard position. Ground and pound starts at 1:02.

Are you interested at all in talking about Zimmerman?; 5/24/12, 2:36 PM
Anonymous said...: Haha, I made no hysterical claims, I just asked what impact the UFC has on the culture, especially young me. Straw man.

The only reason to bring it up to make the claim that UFC/MMA affects young people making them more aggressive. You act like you were "innocently" asking a question, but you and I both know you weren't. You can be disingenuous if you like, though.; 5/24/12, 2:47 PM
Steve Koch said...: Ken said...

"Ground and pound is what you do after you have taken somebody to the ground and mounted them.

Wrong, but whatever. What does this have to do with Zimmerman again?"

You are wrong and too stubborn to admit it. Ground and pound is all about pounding a guy who is on the ground, mounted, and can't defend himself well (that is why he is getting pounded).

The relevance is that, according to a witness, Trayvon was doing an MMA style ground and pound on Z man right before Z man shot him. This establishes a well understood context (by some) for the situation that Z man found himself in.

Ken:
"I didn't mention how to take someone to the ground."

Yes, you did. You said:
"Ground and pound is a technique used to take someone to the ground". There are many techniques to ground a foe and most of them don't produce a ground and pound situation.

The key concept in ground and pound is that you get a mounted position so superior that you are able to inflict copious damage on your foe (the pounding). Grappling is certainly not the only way to get such an advantageous position.; 5/24/12, 3:02 PM
Steve Koch said...: Steve:
"Haha, I made no hysterical claims, I just asked what impact the UFC has on the culture, especially young me. Straw man."

Ken:
"The only reason to bring it up to make the claim that UFC/MMA affects young people making them more aggressive. You act like you were "innocently" asking a question, but you and I both know you weren't. You can be disingenuous if you like, though."

I'm not the one going into hysterics. I asked what effect UFC has on young men and our culture (i.e. the start of a discussion).

If you are going to defend the UFC, you should do a more competent job or don't do it at all.; 5/24/12, 3:10 PM
damikesc said...: "I'm assuming you've never seen UFC, because I have and what you're describing never happens."

I watch UFC several times a week and everything I said is true. What you said is not true.

"It's extremely unusual to see an unconscious fighter get hit at all. The ref watches the fight closely and stops it at the first real sign of danger."

Not true. Frequently a guy will get blasted, hit the ground such that his head bounces when he hits the ground, and then his opponent will leap on him to blast him until the ref jumps in. It is normal for to get in at least one or more blows while the guy is down on the ground.

And the ref jumps in quickly.

Again, far fewer injuries than almost any sport out there.

Not true. Boxing has much larger gloves, you can't use your elbows, knees or kicks, and you can't hit a guy on the ground. There is way more blood in MMA.

It's significantly harder to get a solid shot on a guy in MMA as opposed to boxing. So, no, blood is not more frequent in MMA.

And those gloves, you know, are WHY boxers have so much more health problems than MMA fighters. Concussions still occur when wearing gloves.

And the easy assertion that blacks want a return to lynch mobs over Martin's killing is frankly stupid.

Except it is, in fact, happening. Repeatedly. In a lot of cities.

And the authorities are bending over backwards to avoid discussing the problem.

No one who is sane wants to see it back again!

So your plan is to ignore reality? I don't care about history here. If it is happening NOW, it has to be addressed and stopped.

Denying its existence does no good.; 5/24/12, 3:14 PM
Steve Koch said...: damikesc said...
"It's extremely unusual to see an unconscious fighter get hit at all. The ref watches the fight closely and stops it at the first real sign of danger."

Steve:
"Not true. Frequently a guy will get blasted, hit the ground such that his head bounces when he hits the ground, and then his opponent will leap on him to blast him until the ref jumps in. It is normal for to get in at least one or more blows while the guy is down on the ground."

damikesc:
"And the ref jumps in quickly."

Yeah, after the dominant fighter nearly always beats the slower, less aggressive, more cautious ref to the downed fighter, getting in at least one last punch (and quite often more than one because fighters can punch defenseless foes must faster than refs can move their bodies) before the ref can stop the aggressor.

damikesc:
"Again, far fewer injuries than almost any sport out there."

Absurd claim. Link, please.

Steve:
"There is way more blood in MMA."

damikesc:
"It's significantly harder to get a solid shot on a guy in MMA as opposed to boxing. So, no, blood is not more frequent in MMA."

Ridiculous response. Boxing is a subset of MMA. MMA elbows alone probably produce more blood than all of boxing.

Discussing MMA with you is a waste of my time.; 5/24/12, 3:30 PM
traditionalguy said...: The wrestling take down, go behimd and turn him over on his back and then contol him from escaping has become 90% of the MMA matches. How a man not trained in wrestling (not the silly muscle bound ballets staged in Professional Wrestling dramas) can compete is what I sometimes watch them to see a new trick...until the wife catches me.

Using elbow blows can destroy the bottom guy's face. But I have never seen the man on top bang the back of the bottom guy's head into the floor which would take use of two hands and a paralyzed by fright victim that allowed it.

Actually escaping is simple provided your legs are free. Just roll over, bring up the knees and stand up! OR,just pull the 9mm and tap out the other guy's heart.; 5/24/12, 4:25 PM
Fen said...: traditionalguy: "I saw Batman do it, so why couldn't Zimmerman? And look! Squirrel!"; 5/24/12, 9:40 PM
Jason said...: No, dumbass. Escaping is not "simple" for an untrained, unpracticed fighter getting his head bashed in. Holy crap, you're making an idiot of yourself here.

And only a moron would hesitate to shoot if he were losing a fight and expected to be disarmed (and have the gun used on him.); 5/24/12, 11:23 PM
SGT Ted said...: And so now the sheisters working for Trayvons parents are attacking the police. They will do anything to set up the big bucks "civil rights" suit.; 5/25/12, 6:07 AM