Senior Obama campaign strategist David Axelrod has canceled an appearance on HBO’s Real Time with Bill Maher that was originally scheduled for later this month....And Maher gave $1 million to the pro-Obama Super-PAC.
After the fallout from Rush Limbaugh’s crass insults of Georgetown Law student Sandra Fluke, conservatives began arguing that there was a double standard, with Democrats (and the media) far more tolerant when liberal media figures use crass words to describe Republican women, Maher being Exhibit A in their case....
[And] the comedian Louis CK recently pulled out as entertainer at the Radio-TV Correspondents Dinner. This followed criticisms... over the comedian’s past use of offensive language about former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin.
Rush Limbaugh is a media genius, but I don't think he's enough of a genius to have laid this trap. It has worked as a trap. By going too far, on one well-chosen occasion — picking on a young woman about sex — he got an immense reaction from Rush haters, who smelled blood and imagined that they could use this incident to drive Rush off the air. In making their strong argument, Rush's opponents articulated a rule demonizing those who use offensive language to describe a woman.
Now, Rush is thoroughly familiar with Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals." Here's Rule 4 (pp. 128-129):
Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.In this Fluke incident, many left-liberals have committed to a rule that can now be used to take out some of their most valuable speakers and media outlets.
Let's keep reading Alinsky:
The fourth rule carries within it the fifth rule: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage.We'll find out who the real masters of ridicule are. Rush has his material, and he's going to use it. Look for Maher to attempt counterattacks with witticisms like "fat fuck." (Which I would think violates a left-wing rule that lefties should be compelled to live up to. I mean, do they accept mocking a person for being overweight like that?)
More Alinsky:
The sixth rule is: A good tactic is one that your people enjoy.* If your people are not having a ball doing it, there is something very wrong with the tactic.The asterisk points to a footnote that quotes — of all people — William F. Buckley, Jr.: "Alinsky takes the iconoclast’s pleasure in kicking the biggest behinds in town and the sport is not untempting …"
"Biggest behinds"... mocking the fat... hmmm... it is a tempting sport! Who will win?
पोस्ट्स
१६५ टिप्पण्या:
Axelrod's largesse?
"Biggest behinds"
Behinds? As in, leading from (the biggest) behinds?
Careful chickenlittle. You're veering dangerously close to ODS.
"Here's Rule 4 (pp. 128-129):
Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."
Ahh, but Christians have it easier. They admit they can't live up to their ideals. That's why they also have that "cast the first stone" rule; which liberals could never live up to. What's the fun of being a liberal if you can't ridicule the rubes?
Did he need to set a trap? He probably knew he would accidentally overstep the line at some point.
It's a bad rule and bad for women.
Who can take women seriously if they faint at a word.
Call them all cunts just to clear the air.
"Rush Limbaugh is a media genius, but I don't think he's enough of a genius to have laid this trap. It has worked as a trap. By going too far, on one well-chosen occasion — picking on a young woman about sex — he got an immense reaction from Rush haters, who smelled blood and imagined that they could use this incident to drive Rush off the air. In making their strong argument, Rush's opponents articulated a rule demonizing those who use offensive language to describe a woman."
Undoubtedly true. Limbaugh (no anyone, for that matter) isn't smart enough to have thoroughly gamed out this scenario. He undoubtedly underestimated the reaction to his name-calling, if only because his ever-aggressive stance toward almost everything desensitizes him toward his own act; in turn, the Left undoubtedly underestimated their own vulnerability to the same charges they leveled against Limbaugh, if only because the double-standard favoring the Left has conditioned them to be unleashed dogs.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out, but my guess is, nothing will change. Limbaugh will still be on the air, antagonizing Liberals, and Liberals like Bill Maher will still call women like Sarah Palin cunts.
Alynsky's rules show his complete lack of understanding of how a true Christian comports him or her self.
1. True followers of Christ (the people I consider to be, anyway) don't get flustered that they can't live up to the rules because they know that the rules are an aspiration not an imperative, as Original Mike has said.
2. True followers of Christ don't get infuriated no matter what you say to them.
etc.
Well after the mysoginy displayed toward Palin and other conservative woman, the faux outrage displayed over some crass words to describe a 30 year old law student who can't afford her own birth control was a bit rich.
Perhaps liberals are finding it tough to live up to the standards they set for everyone else.
how a true Christian comports him or her self.
Not to suggest that Rush is anything near a true Christian.
More of a Christian version of a money changer in the Temple.
Crass language has it's place and that place isn't in public discourse on the airwaves. The whole point of using it is the thrill of breaking a taboo. If you use it in public you do neither public nor private dialogue any favors. I don't want to hear it in public anymore than I want to hear baby talk between adults.
Maybe it's just me, but I always regret using crass language. In hindsight, I never feel proud of that choice. It's like drinking too much, it only feels good at the time. Later it's always: "What was I thinking" and feeling that I don't want to be that guy?
I think Rush feels that way, and I don't think Maher does, which means I have more respect for Rush.
"Perhaps liberals are finding it tough to live up to the standards they set for everyone else."
They never intended to live up to them. They just don't expect to be called on it.
I am weeping tears of joy at my desk.
The left are "unleashed dogs" or just dogs? Doesn't matter. I agree that no one on the left or the right is smart enough to game plan public reaction with certainty.
So what remains here is just one more proof of "Be careful what you start". It's blown up in some deserving faces.
True, bombing Limbaugh also bombed their own vulgar word throwers.
But the meme that the GOP is hostile to sexual women will still be around after the " they all do it" defense has faded.
The left is Ollie to Rush's Stan.
asBut the meme that the GOP is hostile to sexual women will still be around after the " they all do it" defense has faded.
The meme is that the GOP is waging a war on women. What the hell is a "sexual woman"? Isn't that just a group of women that excludes nuns and those in loveless marriages?
Man that Alinsky was a sick fuck.
Crass language has it's place and that place isn't in public discourse on the airwaves. The whole point of using it is the thrill of breaking a taboo.
It seems to me cunt has a very specific performance. It would fall within its range to say that women who object to being called cunts are acting as cunts.
I'd suppose that means that you (men) are attracted to them but as a price have to put up with whatever their problem is at the moment.
That performance of cunt falls within public discourse. It's guy bonding precisely because it's public.
Women can watch and, who knows, learn about the effect of public nagging.
As to crass langauge, it's not a taboo so much as language that requires a relationship that grants permission. When it's used in public, it's offensive not in being offensive by reference but in being offered without permission.
Words are invented precisely to require that permission, so as to be able to violate that permission when you want to offend somebody.
However, trading on that for yet another feminist public is beyond the pale. Let cunt fly, it won't work, ladies.
Society works so much better when it's reality based.
I'll wait for another month of polling to see if the "GOP war on women" meme has gained traction.
So have they put Maher on suicide watch?
As Wesley Pruden observed yesterday, right about now, Axelrod and Plouffe must be desperately searching for Plan C.
Or is it D?
Meade said...
Biggest behinds
Behinds? As in, leading from (the biggest) behinds?
I think it's a shot at Michelle.
My guess is as long as Romney can stay steady, Obama will implode just fine on his own. Maybe he can pick Condaleeze Rice as his VEEP. Covers the minority, foreign policy angle all at once.
"Call them all cunts just to clear the air."
Just don't call me late to supper.
I don't listen to either Rush or Maher so I don't care all that much what they say.
The problem is when what they say gets dragged into a place where I am - like the Althouse blog. And then people start defending that ish here.
Shouldn't it be that people who know better ought to say simply "Yeah, that's not appropriate" and then we move on to discuss issues?
Isn't this common sense for common sensical people? What is wrong with embracing common sense responses?
Just last month, Andrew Sullivan and Amanda Marcotte were telling us Obama had brilliantly set the trap.
Confucius say, he who goes through airport turnstyle sideways is going to Bankok.
The game is still predicated on political correctness, so there can be no winners, except in the short term. Once the opposition is neutralized, then it turns on whoever wields it. My take stays the same:
Rush should never have apologized,...
phx, I don't think too many people were defending it. Pointing out that lefties have said the same or worse isn't so much defending as pointing out that the Left was trying to use this for political gain, while blithely ignoring what they have been doing for years.
This is what Maher gets for his apostasy from libertarianism.
I just love when Karma gets bitchy.
Phx. If the Dems go first then I agree. Otherwise no. Conservatives have historically adopted that grown up tactic only to find that they have been tattooed with negative stereotypes that will be more difficult to undo than to receive. So, we take our president's excellent advice and punch back twice as hard. Very effective, particularly when you have the facts on your side, the internet as your ally and a growing willingness to call bullshit on bullshit.
Crack,
Well said. And Maher should not have distinguished Rush from himself. His half-ass defense that sponsors shouldn't defect was a shell of his former self.
You can't be the court jester for either the Progressives or the Conservatives. There are too many taboos.
I don't know who will win but do know who will lose. Us. We're faced with 10s of trillions of dollars in unfunded mandates and we spend our time talking about contraception and social issues because it's more soothing than facing our own impending implosion.
Michael: It's not Dems go first for doing the right thing or I won't! Or Rethugs go first or I'm out!
Utter bullshit.
You are responsible for yourself as an INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEING - if you don't want that responsibility, well join the millions on all sides.
That's the only way it can work. If we accept responsibility for our own behaviors ALL THE FREAKING TIME. You can't bug out because it gives someone else "an advantage".
This is called maturity. Sorry for the caps, I feel strongly. Peace.
"However, trading on that for yet another feminist public is beyond the pale."
Women can't stop you, they have small hands and hit like girls.
I can't hide behind some sociological construct that pretends
I don't make the decision myself.
I enjoy the class clown at the back of class too, but I don't want to be him, and it never works if there is more than one. It's a rare talent, and most who try, just don't have it.
We have not seen the end of this.
I'm pretty sure Rush deliberately stirred this up [after all, he repeated and elaborated on his incendiary comments for three days, just to make sure people noticed them]. To what extent he anticipated further developments I'm not sure.
Certainly he would have noticed the administration's efforts to force "women's issues" to the forefront and may well have tried to disrupt their schedule. He would also have anticipated the swell of uncontrollable outrage from feminist sources and figured that Obama might be embarrassed by some of its loonier manifestations. He may even have foreseen the wave of pro-Hillary, anti-Obama sentiment that is beginning to emerge on the left. To that extent his comments can be seen simply an extension of "operation chaos" -- using feminist as tools to create difficulties for Obama.
"... Shouldn't it be that people who know better ought to say simply "Yeah, that's not appropriate" and then we move on to discuss issues?.."
I think most people including conservatives believed Rush's comments were over the top. The pushback came over the faux outrage from the same people who shrugged when Palin was called a cunt, or Inghran a slur or Malkin, oh hell pick an epithet.
Rush has frequently stated that he is an entertainer. He does it for the money.
"Make him live up to his own rules". He does. The left has been heist by its own petard. As happens with great regularity. It comes from living in a bubble.
Witness the spectacular swing in O's approval ratings since he took on the Catholic Church. A cursory familiarity with history should have warned them not to pull tat particular cape.
I agree with Ann. This is a serendipitous result. Seeing leftists exposed as worse misogynists than republicans is always gratifying.
Phx. Tough shit. The game has changed and the bullies are now pinned down and have decided they want to stop fighting. We have fallen for that trick enough. Grow up yourself. Oh, and peace.
I am women, hear me uproar.
The asterisk points to a footnote that quotes — of all people — William F. Buckley, Jr.: "Alinsky takes the iconoclast’s pleasure in kicking the biggest behinds in town and the sport is not untempting …"
"Biggest behinds"... mocking the fat... hmmm... it is a tempting sport! Who will win?
Obviously, He with the biggest foot.
It would fall within its range to say that women who object to being called cunts are acting as cunts.
You are so full of it.
Also, "object" ≠ "faint".
*Rolling eyes*
Time to move the goal posts again. Anti-women didn't work. If HBO has really lost subscribers, and Rush's ad base has not taken a hit, then maybe Maher should try the 'GOP as Taliban censors' tactic? It's okay to vote with your wallet when Rush is at issue, but doing so against Maher is a direct shot at free speech itself.
I have enjoyed the CNN and NPR pieces on 'is it time for Rush to be silenced?' over the last couple of weeks. A lot of lefty illiberal ideas have been on full display lately, and it's starting to hurt them in the polls.
WOW! Mark this day and thread!
rhhardin is wrote that Sarah Palin essentially acted as a cunt. So I guess that means he thinks Bill Maher was right after all. Clown.
Cunt refers to the attraction of female genitals plus problems that come attached.
The proportions vary with context, leading to various implications between them.
It's a very versatile word for putting forth doctrines of women.
Who would want to silence it?
Maher would have been saying, of Palin, watch out guys, there are problems too.
althouse, I Know you are not a George Lucas fan, but how can you imply It's a trap! and not, you know, LINK?
But it doesn't rhyme with "fish".
It seems to me to be a shame that our elected officials countenance increasing debt, failure to pursue an energy policy which is very much needed, and ignore foreign policy issues. Yet, they focus on a couple of foul mouthed "entertainers" as if the entertainers somehow pull the strings of power.
Mr Obama, whose political skills havent moved much off zero, and we get the progs advocating shutting Mr Limbaugh down for "misogny."
This is what our country has become, and it really isnt pretty. I mull these thoughts over every time it costs me 60 dollars to fill my tank with gas.
The "war on women" was a bull shit trope--the real war on women is based on the sorry economic situation--Women and men suffer the same economic hardships, and contraception is a wonderful red herring. This campaign strategy in a rather blatent attempt to secure the women's vote will go nowhere.
A sad commentary on our highly dysfunctional political class.
Maher would have been saying, of Palin, watch out guys, there are problems too.
rhhardin swings and misses.
Ha ha. Nice try, but no score.
@PHX
I normally disagree with your post but I think you are correct on this issue. If the right stands for individual responsibility, then that responsibility applies to all facets of character.
On the other hand, it is as Michael sez, "We won't be fooled again". So I try to live by the adage "Everybody gets one". A dog gets one bite, a writer gets one bad book, a restaurant gets one bad meal, etc.(this adage does NOT apply in physical confrontations, I'm old and fat, I'm gonna have to kill you quickly)
As for wanting deliberate, non-sensational conversation on the internet? Good luck with that from either side :-)
Ps. My "everyone gets one" was applied to the big O also. He used his up very quickly. My wife, on the other hand went straight to "He's the Anti-Christ!"
In her defense she had just recently finished the Tribulation series. Four years later she says "He's the Anti-Christ!"
The way to avoid the range of cunt is to be obsessively and actually interested in the activity it intrudes on.
Say a woman mathematician could avoid it (I am speaking theoretically) by actually doing mathematics as an obsession.
Rather than joining the women's issues advisory committee, just for real life example.
"The proportions vary with context, leading to various implications between them."
Do you mean that some men make a good deal for themselves?
I know hindsight is 20/20, but is it really that hard to anticipate how this back and forth settles out between left and right. It happens every day and it's always the same following a slow evolutionary path. I just think nobody sits down and plans how to be at the next station when that train gets to it's inevitable daily destination.
Maybe people like Rush, or Axelrod do that. It would make sense for them to be well practiced at it, even employing full time planners, but do they do it? Seems to me it would be one of the most valuable skills in politics or media.
It seems that is what pundits get paid for, but they don't seem real good at it either. They basically say the same things we unpaid dolts who don't even try at it.
"... althouse, I Know you are not a George Lucas fan, but how can you imply It's a trap! and not, you know,.."
Most women aren't into sci fi. And that movie is a bit out of her age range. I'm sure supreme court justices held more allure than Admiral Ackbar.
Rush on the other hand is saying:
Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational battlestation!!!
conservatives began arguing that there was a double standard
Who was arguing? There was something to argue? Pointing out the obvious, is not obvious.
Maher's ridicule machine has run into some strong push backs. His allies are leaving him to take the heat for it.
Rush at the least has loyal allies.
@ Triangleman...If you don't understand the meme that "sexual woman" are the target of the vulgar words used about women, then I cannot help you. (Hint:It has something to do with them living as if they are free from the relationship rules that men like applied to their women.)
phx said: That's the only way it can work. If we accept responsibility for our own behaviors ALL THE FREAKING TIME.
phx, I get what you're saying, but I think that it fails to apply to this discussion simply because neither Bill Maher nor Rush are commenting here. No one here has used the inappropriate language (in that context), so there's nothing for them to take responsibility for.
In contrast, however, some people want all conservatives to take responsibility for what Rush said (i.e., it's the "Republican" war on women, not "Rush's Limbaugh's" war). That's what we most certainly need to push back against.
but is it really that hard to anticipate how this back and forth settles out between left and right.
Nope. In fact it's easy, or at least it should be. However, there is that phenomenon in which the more clever and savvy become complacent in their success. Then they start to make rookie errors in judgment (and then just double-down).
Think about it for a minute. Is this not frequently enough so?
Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational battlestation!!!
LOL.
Where is the lefty outrage when Chris Rock calls all Tea Partiers "insane racists"? Oh wait - they agree with him.
Rush on the other hand is saying:
I think Rush just screwed up, as he often does, about technical matters he gets surprisingly wrong.
In those cases his show sucks until he moves on.
His chief failing is economics explanations, which he doesn't begin to get right.
He gets the right answer but is unable to explain it.
In that way he really is stupid. Also he's no good at all arguing with hostile callers.
His talent is a literary decoding of the left, not an explaining of the right.
*Sigh*
Much of this double-down stuff makes me think of something I used to hear all the time when I was growing up:
"I may not always be right, but I am never wrong."
Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now.
Haven't I been saying this for weeks?
Breitbart did this all the time. Make the media criticize some method (selective editing, gotcha journalism), then point out the hypocrisy.
This only works because conservative media exists.
Rush supposed that slut had a simple performance and needed only to be mentioned.
Whereas it has to be made to work with strings pulled by context, to make it at all useful.
Rush on the other hand is saying:
Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational battlestation!!!
Hoosier, that would imply Rush is the Imperial force. He's definitely better cast as a plucky Rebel upstart.
Sometimes your analyses verge on genius. This is one of those times. To think that Rush might be using the left's playbook and then to show how he's doing it is just great. I do sense a turn in the tide on this Fluke Flap.
I don't believe in conspiracies. So no. A coordinated effort is one thing, but to do something over-the-top, thinking that your opponents will do something much more over the top......doesn't work.
IMO, these days people would benefit by spending less time focused on Alinsky's Rules for Radicals (either version) and more time on The Starfish and the Spider.
To reiterate, IMO.
I wonder why more people aren't talking about Big Media demanding to get and read through all 25,000 emails Governor Palin sent while in office. For an unsuccesful fishing trip.
Yet no male governor has ever had that request made. Only a female governor. Why is that?
I suppose I'm hopelessly out of date, but I have always thought the c word was as bad as the n word. (I had never heard of the c word until I was about 30.) Both words are vulgar expositions of the speakers mind and heart.
Some words that should never have seen the light of day are spun as edgy. Once they get to edgy and away from appalling they become banal very quickly.
Then they become politically useful which opens them to be used by liberals in any way they choose; to punish the conservative or excuse liberals. After all they (the opposition) deserve that disgusting word. To deserve the word is to be the word.
Rush is too establishment (and too established) to be classified as a rebel. That is one thing he surely is not.
Geoff Matthews,
I agree with Ann. This is a serendipitous result. Seeing leftists exposed as worse misogynists than republicans is always gratifying.
Sure it is, but it's still wrong. And dangerous:
You're playing the game of appeasing the crocodile, hoping you'll be eaten last.
Ann (as usual) should know better.
Isn't age supposed to bring wisdom?
You don't have to set traps for Democrats.
Stupidity sets traps. This explains why people falling into traps are almost always Democrats.
I don't see what is potent about ridicule. I don't know the context, but I feel that rule of Alinsky is probably quite dumb--Probably just something a pedant said. I mean, laughter is properly about silly mistakes, and why get angry about those? Limbaugh is not a comedian, so I can accept anger from him more than I can from Maher. True, I suppose there's a kind of good comedy, often associated with vulgar language (probably more full of conflations), that is bitter because it brings out the evil purposes behind the originators of all the bad various verbal conflations, etc., and conflations are what comedy above all deals with.
But is Maher's so-called comedy much that? I doubt it. His vulgarity just seems to me to be something he enacts to try to appear like he is not an elitist. True, the people who cause evil conflations in others also tend to make the same conflations themselves, but I don't dislike them for believing the conflations but for deceiving others into believing them, so it's hard for me to imagine ridiculing them. I suppose like for most things under the sun, there is a place for ridicule, but whatever is the place, I'd say off hand that it would properly involve rather extreme situations.
I don't listen to either Rush or Maher so I don't care all that much what they say.
The problem is when what they say gets dragged into a place where I am - like the Althouse blog. And then people start defending that ish here.
Wait, wait, wait. Wasn't it you who, just a week or so ago, was incessantly badgering the posters here about whether or not they would condemn Rush's remarks?
C'mon, rcommal. Rush has long been one of the few conservative voices to make a dent in the mainstream media coverage. He's done it all through radio, in a field dominated by visual content. And they've relentlessly tried to exterminate him. In this case they tried to train their planet-obliterating death ray on him, but he managed to inflict damage to their Death Star without being mortally wounded himself.
deborah, I love the Bangkok joke. I'll be using that one, if you don't mind.
Rush will still be on the air, his ratings will go up and so will his ad rates and his air time filled. Axelrod will be on Maher's show later in the year and the left will still be doing their set up faux outrages untill they get yet another blow back and push back. Probably a number of times until they get a clue that in the internet age those tactics aren't all that useful. Both Maher and Limbaugh know their audience and both will still be employed next February and both will miss the unemployed Obama who has been very good for the both of them. Why is it that it is all to easy imagining the two of them at a private black tie dinner having a quiet cognac and cigar away from the crowd telling each other war stories while laughing all the way to the bank.
In another surprise, a Judicial Watch FOIA request shows that the White House encouraged and was closely involved in the firing of Shirley Sherrod. This was denied by the lying and dishonest WH advisor David Axelrod at the time.
The MSM and the Democrats are sublimely unaware of the animus their poster girl Fluke incites in a huge swath of American women, women who want no part of supporting the pampered beggar.
His talent is a literary decoding of the left, not an explaining of the right.
Good point. His show is good when he plays soundbites off MSNBC and CNN and analyzes/mocks them.
His show is terrible when he tries to define conservatism, or declare who's a "real" conservative and who's a RINO. And by terrible, I don't just mean I disagree with him. I mean he comes off as a cranky blowhard, completely dense, immune to reason, and unentertaining.
" I don't just mean I disagree with him. I mean he comes off as a cranky blowhard, completely dense, immune to reason, and unentertaining."
What you mean is you *really* disagree with him.
Sorry, I buy his take on conservatism.
The real question is did Obama's team even consider a fallback position or did they just assume they couldn't lose because all women are as stupid as liberal women, & would fall for the scam?Rush was the only person I heard mention that he smelled a rat when little Georgie Stephanopolis made the opening move of the scam,back in the January debate. Given that, maybe Rush did do a 'rope-a dope' on the Obama scam operation.
BTW, I think that where Rush separates himself from the pack is the literary nature of his monologues. I hear other "right wing" to use the Left's word, talk shows, and none can touch him because he comes from a long line of great storytellers born on the Mississippi.
Lefties can deny this, but the proof is in the pudding.
After reflection, what feels most appropriate as a target of ridicule would be pointless distinctions designed to hide an intermingled bad conflation. Also bad is pointless distinctions and definitions designed to hide the lack of useful distinctions and definitions, as is common in math and above all philosophy, but the latter phenomenon does not make me feel ridicule.
I thought Rush made a mistake by apologizing, but it is clear after reading the transcript of Miss Fluke's remarks that she was not speaking about her own contraceptive needs. Rush was simply correcting an inaccurate comment that he made.
In the end, Rush was right to apologize, and the ensuing disarray on the left is highly entertaining.
I can't wait to see the vacations that Michelle arranges before January 20th.
""Biggest behinds"... mocking the fat... hmmm... it is a tempting sport! Who will win?"
Indeed. The left has a better contender for the biggest behinds to kick - Michael Moore. Who is a major proponent of what goes for humor on the left - rediculing people; what I call a parasitic "humor".
Alex said...
"Man that Alinsky was a sick fuck."
He just condenced Lenin's writing
for his contemporaries
The Crack Emcee said...
" The game is still predicated on political correctness, ... My take stays the same:
Rush should never have apologized,..."
However, if the former is true than the latter was a clever move to make. At this stage, Maher and Co can't appologise without further damage to themselves.
Phx. Tough shit. The game has changed and the bullies are now pinned down and have decided they want to stop fighting. We have fallen for that trick enough. Grow up yourself. Oh, and peace.
Michael takes it personally. As far as I can see the "bullies" are far from deciding they want to stop fighting. You think the bullies are on the left and only on the left (unless you conscience grants you to allow maybe one or two small right-wing exceptions).
The bullies are on both sides and they're armed to the teeth with irrationality and a sense of being personally offended...by other Americans. Who they hate and fear.
Some of you want to imagine it's not like that but all you have to do is pick a single political thread at Althouse, scroll through the comments and you'll see - maybe YOU aren't so irrational, but many, many right-wing (and left-wing) commenters are. Just because it's convenient for you to point to the other guys doesn't make you clean. Your parents should have taught you that.
But who needs to take responsibility? Hey, what can go wrong?
It's only America. It's not like democracy was meant to last forever.
Meade said...
"Biggest behinds"
Behinds? As in, leading from (the biggest) behinds?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just reposted for a pleasure of it.
I don't think this is the case, but I'm still laughing
And yeah, peace. But you know, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm responsible only for myself.
Beautifully laid trap.
1. Fluke testifies.
2. Limbaugh calls her a slut and a prostitute, bleeds advertisers.
3. ??????
Garage, BTW, that is the name of my garage, not after you, I had never heard of you, but because it is apt, does this kind of denial of reality you employ seem to be working for you to you?
Denial of what reality?
So Garage, where does 'and now Obama staffers won't appear on sycophantic-but-toxic lefty talk shows' fit in to the strategy?
I'm tired of petard talk, so maybe it was something more like this?
So Garage, where does 'and now Obama staffers won't appear on sycophantic-but-toxic lefty talk shows' fit in to the strategy?
Who cares?
I'm perfectly, perfectly fine with the left coming up with a Rule for Rush
How low the expectations are. It's not "the left coming up with a rule for Rush."
You should be looking for reasonable people coming up with rules for reasonable dialogue.
Who cares?
This should have been Flukes' answer when she was first told what Rush had said on his show.
Bill Maher cares, for one. I doubt he's ready to martyr himself for the cause, although that's what it looks like he's being offered up as.
"Denial of what reality?" - gm
Thanks garage, there is no need for you to be in on the joke for it to be funny. Just thank you.
Regardless of Ann and Meade's slobbering over the fat man...others have an entirely different opinion of the jerk:
In a survey of likely voters, Bloomberg found that 53 percent — including 56 percent of women and 49 percent of men — thought Limbaugh should be fired. Nearly one-third of Republicans believed it was time for the conservative icon to step down.
He probably knew he would accidentally overstep the line at some point.
Naif.
Nearly one-third of Republicans believed it was time for the conservative icon to step down.
"Who cares?"
+1 Scott M
Was there a poll for Bill Maher, I wonder.... How was it worded?
No I don't! Of course there wasn't! It was worded to prejudice the result!
I am saying this without even looking at it, but I would certainly be fine with being proven wrong by showing the actual questions and demonstrated that they provided complete context.
Love,
In a survey of likely voters, Bloomberg found that 53 percent — including 56 percent of women and 49 percent of men — thought Limbaugh should be fired.
First, what do "likely voters" have to do with a radio talk show host? Is he on the ballot or something?
Second, he should be "fired" from what? The Rush Limbaugh Program? (Good luck with that.) Who's supposed to do this firing? Snerdley?
Completely insane.
Anyway, there's another Lefty comedian who's stepped in it, guys. This time over the Tea Party.
And Breitbart wins again,...
"Recently, conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh made comments about a university student who testified before the U.S. Senate about access to birth control at religious universities. He used the words “slut” and “prostitute” to describe her. Based solely on these comments, do you think Rush Limbaugh should or should not be fired?" - from the poll. http://media.bloomberg.com/bb/avfile/rNQ19FPBKQG0
Notice that just the two words were used, nothing about "illustrating absurdity with the absurd" which Rush says all the time. No context whatsoever. No question about Maher.
That Bloomberg article is the gift that keeps on giving, look at the headline, then the relevant piece of the article:
"Republicans Losing on Birth Control as 77% in Poll Spurn Debate"
"While Democrats have charged that the Republican position amounts to a “war on women,” the poll indicates that they aren’t benefiting from it in respondents’ perceptions of the two parties. The survey also suggests that the advantage Democrats have historically enjoyed among women may have narrowed."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-14/republicans-losing-on-birth-control-as-77-in-poll-spurn-debate.html
Nora,
if the former is true than the latter was a clever move to make. At this stage, Maher and Co can't appologise without further damage to themselves.
No, you miss the point:
This is a battle that shouldn't be fought - no one can "win" in the long run.
This current desire everyone has to get the other side is over-riding their reason - because, using this any-weapon-at-hand strategy, they're damaging our freedoms at the same time - something that, last I heard, conservatives were against.
I see a pattern developing now, with conservatives willing to do wrong in order to win - when we're winning already.
Kinda hard to say we're not like Democrats - as Rush claimed when he apologized - behaving like this,...
Looks like Mr Limbaugh survived this contretemps and emerged even stronger--when you have access to some tens of millions of listeners, you can call most of the shots--Ask Carbonite and Sleep Train--
And what crack said about the ridiculous Bloomberg poll--I am sure Love/Jeremy will be by shortly to tell how Mr Limbaugh will be fired. Crack asks all the right questions.
Crack,
I don't see it that way. I think we are taking a weapon out of their hands.
I think any advertiser is going to think twice before giving in to pressure groups like this.
But I will never darken the door of a JC Pennies again. I don't think they actually advertised on Rush, but with so many alternatives, what is the point?
Garage,
Amex was on the list of advertisers pulling their ads, guess what? They never did!
http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/03/amex-denies-being-part-of-conservative-radio-boycott/
Are you starting to get it about your denial?
Rush Limbaugh is a media genius, but I don't think he's enough of a genius to have laid this trap. It has worked as a trap.
Its not a trap, its a breitbart. Its a tactic he perfected and, since his death, something brilliant he's remembered for.
Check the eulogies on rigth-wing sites, you'll see what I mean. I'll try to find some quotes for you when I have more time today.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Rush deliberately used it. I know the libtards want to pretend he's a dumb fat drug addict, so its funny how he keeps schooling them...
Rush will still be on the air, his ratings will go up and so will his ad rates and his air time filled.
And Obama will defeat Rush in the November election. Unfortunately for The One, Rush isn't a candidate.
I see a pattern developing now, with conservatives willing to do wrong in order to win - when we're winning already.
Kinda hard to say we're not like Democrats - as Rush claimed when he apologized - behaving like this,...
I'm so fricken tired of the Equialence Fairies. I've been involved in politics for 15 years now, working (not for free) campaigns at both the state and federal level. In that 15 years, I've seen what happens to Conservatives who honorably attempt to play by Marquess of Queensberry rules.
If there was a time for civility, it passed a decade ago. When Clinton went after Starr. When Gore contested Florida 2000. Grow some balls. The Left is willing to win AT ANY COST. The only way to get them to come to the table and play fair is to use their own tactics against them. Destroy them. Then make the rubble bounce.
The only way to earn a return to Civility is through a Victor's Peace.
This current desire everyone has to get the other side is over-riding their reason - because, using this any-weapon-at-hand strategy, they're damaging our freedoms at the same time - something that, last I heard, conservatives were against.
Reason first. Everybody play by the same rules.
That's "everybody as individuals play by the same rules." Because nobody, but nobody, can be responsible for someone other than themselves. You can't be held responsible for the people on your own side. You speak for yourself.
Sorry Crack, but I really am sick of the Equivalence Fairies. Its like people no longer have guts to call the perps out. You get mugged and the Fairies proclaim that BOTH of you need to stop fighting.
No more of that bullshit.
Like you've never mugged anybody Fen.
No problem, Joe.
You can't be held responsible for the people on your own side.
Sure you can. You can certianly affect your own side. Name and shame instead of staring down at your shoelaces.
It all moot anyway. For a good 10 years, I was always the guy reaching my hand across the aisle. For my efforts, people like Shiloh and Garage spit in my face.
If I'm an asshole now, its only because I've been radicalized by the Left.
It all moot anyway. For a good 10 years, I was always the guy reaching my hand across the aisle. For my efforts, people like Shiloh and Garage spit in my face.
If I'm an asshole now, its only because I've been radicalized by the Left.
And that's what I mean by not taking the responsibility for yourself.
Hardly a conservative value. Not really a liberal value either.
It's a self-centered value, and that's what everyone needs to own up to.
Fen,
Sorry Crack, but I really am sick of the Equivalence Fairies. Its like people no longer have guts to call the perps out. You get mugged and the Fairies proclaim that BOTH of you need to stop fighting.
No more of that bullshit.
As I wrote last night, I know there's no stopping this train, but that's still no reason to ignore it's going to jump the tracks - that's what it's designed to do.
And you know I'm not the type to play a moral equivalence game - I want to win as bad as you do - but we ARE winning. So the question becomes, what are we fighting for? A world where language is policed? That's what the liberals wanted - so what's going on?
Why was it wrong for them but right for us? Why has our side adopted the politically correct argument? Beating the Left this way can't help but hurt us. How long before someone's telling you what you can't say? That's the only natural, unavoidable result.
Like I said, Rush apologizing was wrong. He may not have meant to, but he fell into the politically correct column when he accepted the argument he'd done wrong - just as Don Imus did. Either we have Freedom of Speech or we don't. If we do, then there are no wrong words, but just wrong ideas - and since what Rush said about Fluke wasn't so far off the mark (as a joke) that he had anything to be sorry for, the apology was unwarranted.
The truth is he got spooked by the advertising exodus and, as a result, made a tactical mistake.
Continuing that mistake will do no one any good.
Phx. I dont take it personally at all. In my private life I do not allow myself to be slandered and I have quit being polite where my political views are mischaracterized and I am slandered by association. What is the difference. You mount a high horse off a foolish stool assuming that ideas fight for themselves and that the other cheek is somehow rewarded. I yield to no man in the importance of personal responsibility and believe almost enough to put it is all caps that being a pussy is not responsible nor laudatory.
Crack,
I agree that Rush's slut and prostitute comments went over the line. It's not the first time. It's what he does--illustrate the absurd through satire.
I think his apology was tactical and wicked smart, and maybe even sincere. He didn't and doesn't have a business problem. He had and is exploiting a business opportunity.
His apology predictably sucked the lefty institutions in completely. They will blather (like Modo), but they can't touch him. The silly polls are a joke. There is only one poll that matters and that's ratings. Watch them increase.
Obama screwed the pooch again. Ms. Fluke got crapped on and used, and will be the once and future slut. Rush wins.
7. A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag.
Old Dad,
Crack, I agree that Rush's slut and prostitute comments went over the line. It's not the first time. It's what he does--illustrate the absurd through satire.
That's fine - all Rush's words got out of me when he said it was a "Whoa-ho-ho!" and a chuckle. I didn't hear anything unusual, or egregious in them. I think this was (and still is) combatants looking for a fight so they started one, nothing more. I think his apology was tactical and wicked smart, and maybe even sincere. He didn't and doesn't have a business problem. He had and is exploiting a business opportunity.
I don't doubt his sincerity, once he did it, but news of advertising departures came first so I have a hard time understanding how that couldn't have been a catalyst. And I agree - there's no stopping him, so he'll spin gold out of it. His apology predictably sucked the lefty institutions in completely. They will blather (like Modo), but they can't touch him. The silly polls are a joke. There is only one poll that matters and that's ratings. Watch them increase.
Agreed, agreed, agreed. Except for one thing - I think it was Kirsten Powers in The Daily Beast that started the second phase of this that "sucked the lefty institutions in completely." Before that article, Bill Maher wasn't on anyone's radar. Obama screwed the pooch again. Ms. Fluke got crapped on and used, and will be the once and future slut. Rush wins.
Agreed - but this tendency for everyone to state who wins still gives the game away: Nobody cares about ethics or anything else any longer - you're all blindly engaged in blood sport when A) we were winning anyway and B) I keep reminding you we'll lose this one - in the long run. Sure, there's some short-term gain, or gain for Rush alone, but you're still laying the groundwork for the other side to trip us up. As Ann said, there are rules being established here - rules you aren't going to like any more than libs currently do, when you're the target. That's why I'm refusing to play:
No one's taking away my Freedom of Speech and I'm definitely not going to give them ammo, now, to do so later.
YMMV
@phx,
Maybe not intentionally, but your "only responsible for yourself" is pretty much proving Fen's point.
You, a liberal, are trying to shove that principle in a conservative's face as some sort of moral trump.
But I don't see you pushing back against all your fellow liberals in these threads, all their "smear by association" and near-total lack of reason in their "up is down, black is white" pretzel logic contortions.
So your plea for "reason" and civility is just another attempt to shut down conservative speech to leave a free path for liberal assholishness.
Maybe that isn't your intent.
It is the actual effect.
Now will you live up to your principle and take responsibility for what you are actually bringing about?
In making their strong argument, Rush's opponents articulated a rule demonizing those who use offensive language to describe a woman.
You completely missed the objection, didn't you? It was simply calling her a slut and prostitute that was objectionable, but working out how many times she had sex every day and requesting that she post videos online so Rush could get his rocks off.
For that reason, his apology was completely inadequate and indicated that neither he nor you understood what all the fuss was about.
@Freder,
Are you really stupid enough to think that Rush wanted to watch her have sex?
Or are you smart enough to realize he was making a point, but are pretending to be that stupid for some imagined tactical point?
Either way, it doesn't reflect well on you, or give anyone any reason to take you seriously.
@phx,
Also, there is a difference between denying personally responsibility and correctly identifying the stimulus to your response.
Yes, we all are personally responsible for how we respond to circumstances.
But if liberals and their news media enablers create a situation where integrity is punished, then reason indicates that only a fool will continue to play that game.
Personal responsibility for our own actions, sure, but the ones who intentionally destroy civility when they decide it benefits them have equal or greater responsibility. Trying to push it back on Fen for responding in kind is just denying your own responsibility for the way the situation has been subverted and corrupted.
Like: if you see someone drowning, and do nothing, are you at fault?
Does being able to act effectively and choosing not to mean you acted irresponsibly?
Crack,
We're on the same page.
You said: "B) I keep reminding you we'll lose this one - in the long run. Sure, there's some short-term gain, or gain for Rush alone, but you're still laying the groundwork for the other side to trip us up. As Ann said, there are rules being established here - rules you aren't going to like any more than libs currently do, when you're the target. That's why I'm refusing to play:"
Maybe, but I don't think so. Most institutional Lefties don't get conventional morality, and since they are leading, the herd will follow. They'll defend every foolish Obama feint until hell freezes over. Rush will bait them on slutgate for a little while longer, until the next little contretemps. He'll sucker punch them again. They're transparently dumb.
But Rush knows his audience. They do understand conventional morality, and they are not transparently dumb. Most would never say it out of politeness, but they think Fluke is a slut, not because of the pill nonsense, but because she whored herself out for the likes of Pelosi, et al.
Gross.
Stephen said
"I don't see what is potent about ridicule. I don't know the context, but I feel that rule of Alinsky is probably quite dumb--Probably just something a pedant said. I mean, laughter is properly about silly mistakes, and why get angry about those?"
I don't remember exactly where I read it, but the author of an article I read many years ago made a very good case that the KKK was brought down by rendering it ridiculous.
As I was growing up the KKK was viewed as a bunch of demented people dressing up in pillowcases. I read history and realized the horrendous harm they perpetrated, but by the time I had experience with them was as a ridiculous antiquated bunch of clowns with no political power, which they remain to this day.
Hitler rants about Sandra Fluke
But if liberals and their news media enablers create a situation where integrity is punished, then reason indicates that only a fool will continue to play that game.
Personal responsibility for our own actions, sure, but the ones who intentionally destroy civility when they decide it benefits them have equal or greater responsibility. Trying to push it back on Fen for responding in kind is just denying your own responsibility for the way the situation has been subverted and corrupted.
Nathan, this is just a self-serving "The devil made me do it" excuse. Personal integrity doesn't get a waiver because someone says it's costly and unfair. My integrity is all I've got. If I sully it, it's my responsibility.
This is hard for anyone to live up to. Rationalizations are rationalizations.
Phx. As a heads up, you should know that people proclaiming their "self integrity" are usually without. You may be the exception but your posts suggest you have a very high opinion of your own and a readiness to identify shortfalls in others. A bad sign. Fyi. And peace.
Michael I'm accountable in the same way anyone else is or is not.
I'm not really saying anything about my integrity here other than, well, what I've been saying: I'm responsible for my integrity, nobody else is. If I violate it, I can't say those Republicans made me do it.
My style can be attacked for a lot of good reasons I suppose. I'm preachy, I'm boring, I have a high opinion of myself, fair enough. But if my integrity is under suspicion because I say use reason first and hold yourselves to the same standards that you hold others, well that's a measure of the sad state we are in IMO.
David,
Shirly Sherrod was not fired.
She was not fired
She was not fired
She was asked to resign and, foolishly in my opinion, did so.
Had she refused, she might have been fired but I think she was Civil Service and thus it would have been very hard to do.
Had she been fired, she might have been able to sue.
As Artie said: "Always make the bastards fire you. Never resign."
John Henry
Personal integrity doesn't get a waiver because someone says it's costly and unfair. My integrity is all I've got. If I sully it, it's my responsibility.
Prove to us that your ethics aren't situational...
A quote of you standing up for any of the conservative women slimed as sluts and cunts and "the top 10 we'd like to hatefuck" would work
Or standing against the constant Rush-bashing here, ie. "fat stupid drug addict"
Or Breitbart being slimed within hours of his death
Or all the "Bush Lied Troops Died!" nonsense.
The Scott Walker hatred.
Obama's "bitter clingers" remark.
The libtards here with all their "hillbilly redneck double-wide trailer-trash fucking their sister" nonsense we put up with.
Any of that.
Surely, someone of your "integrity" can easily find an example of where Right has trumped your Party loyalty.
Hell, I'll even give you a week to come up with one example.
Fen I don't owe you proof of my integrity, just as I never asked you to demonstrate your own.
Your job is to show where I don't have integrity, like I showed about you. Don't you think?
It's harsh but go ahead and hold me to the same standard I hold you. Just as I hold you to the same standard I hold myself. It's simple.
I would expect conservatives to know this stuff.
---But the meme that the GOP is hostile to sexual women will still be around after the " they all do it" defense has faded. ---
Its not effective propaganda if you broadcast to people you are going to manipulate them into believing something.
................................
Then, from March 7 to 10--a week into the national media firestorm surrounding Rush Limbaugh's degrading remarks about Georgetown Law student and liberal activist Sandra Fluke--Washington Post/ABC conducted another poll. It found Obama's approval rating at 46 percent, down four points from February, and his disapproval rating at 50 percent, up four points from February.
According to the poll's crosstabs... Obama's approval rating actually dropped 3 points among women and 6 points among men between February and March (Obama's disapproval rating was up 1 point among women and up 7 points among men):
Obama's approval among women
February: 53-44
March: 50-45.
Obama's approval rating among men
February: 47-48
March: 41-55
Women just aren't as dumb as Democrats think they are. Most women are struggling in this economy, not identifying with a 30 year old law school activist who will earn $160K when she graduates. Women who are struggling know that nothing is free and that assaulting religious freedom to get a handful of pills is a bad bargain.
Fen I don't owe you proof of my integrity, just as I never asked you to demonstrate your own.
I never said you "owed proof". I merely asked you to provide some evidence of this "integrity" you speak of...
Your job is to show where I don't have integrity
Really? You can't even find *one* quote of you standing against Leftist hate speech?
Here, I'll give you a second swing at it...
Why should I do this for you? Did you do it for me? No, you didn't did you?
But setting rules for others that you don't hold yourself to (i.e., "provide evidence that you have integrity") is also an example of a failure of integrity, and clear thinking.
There's only one thing I maintain: I am responsible if I fail to live up to my responsibility.
You maintain your failure is garage and shiloh's fault.
Everything else is you playing with yourself.
If you have evidence I don't have integrity or that I hold my failures to be someone eles's fault, point it out.
Like I pointed out those failures in you.
Why should I have to go to all the trouble of searching your comments for a single *instance* of you living up to your own standard? Surely you can easily do it yourself, as you know what you said and when you said. Why put me on a wild goosechase when it would take you all of 5 minutes to prove your self?
Because there aren't any instances? Because you aren't acting in good faith?
This is the part where I show you Mercy instead of raking you over the coals for using Righteousness as a political prop to silence speech.
Have a nice evening.
Why should I have to go to all the trouble of searching your comments for a single *instance* of you living up to your own standard?
I never asked you to.
But sleep is good for weary gladiators such as yourself. Nite.
But setting rules for others that you don't hold yourself to (i.e., "provide evidence that you have integrity") is also an example of a failure of integrity, and clear thinking.
Then you don't understand integrity. Even if you believe I am the basest most vile hypocrite, you shouldn't lower your standards to what you *think* mine are.
Integity means you don't cheat, even if you are certain everyone else does. There's no Equivalence. This is something that always hamstrings those on the left. They base their ethics on what the pretend the other side is doing. Thats got nothing to do with Integrity.
Oh you're back after all. And now you're just not making any sense.
Then you don't understand integrity. Even if you believe I am the basest most vile hypocrite, you shouldn't lower your standards to what you *think* mine are.
Go to bed Fen. You're getting like a loose cannon now and not helping your arguments with the above nonsense.
And no, I don't think you're "the basest most vile hypocrite." Just garden variety.
See? In the time it took you to make all that up, you could have found your quote and thrown it in my face.
Would have been much more effective, and I would have been forced to apologize profusely.
But you don't have it. Thats too bad. It would have been refreshing to find a liberal who didn't stare at his shoelaces while convervatives were being marginalized by lefty hate speech. Might have even restored my faith and brought me back to civility.
So, for all your big words, you passed on that opportunity.
See? In the time it took you to make all that up, you could have found your quote and thrown it in my face.
What quote?
Would have been much more effective, and I would have been forced to apologize profusely.
I don't care if you apologize, profusely or otherwise. I set my own goals. You don't set them for me.
Why should I have to go to all the trouble of searching your comments for a single *instance* of you living up to your own standard?
Get it straight in your groggy, foggy head: I try to live up to my own standard all the time - with each comment I post. If you think I don't, it's your job to show where and why.
My job: Live up to my standards, not find evidence of my integrity for some fool who beckons me.
Your job: Show that I'm not living up to my standards.
Do you think you got it? Or do you want to argue about that some more?
Might have even restored my faith and brought me back to civility.
Now it's my fault that you've lost your faith and can't be brought back to civility.
You make these same kind of pass-the-buck arguments a lot don't you? Did it actually work for you at some point?
All right. My brother gets the last word. Then I'm declaring a TKO.
Uh... you missed the ten count. I'm just helping you stand up. How many fingers? Thats right. One.
Really, the I'm not dead yet shtick stopped being funny ten years ago.
Buckley wasn't making jokes about fat.
He just couldn't say "the biggest assholes", at least on television.
Nathan Alexander said...
@phx,
Maybe not intentionally, but your "only responsible for yourself" is pretty much proving Fen's point.
You, a liberal, are trying to shove that principle in a conservative's face as some sort of moral trump.
But I don't see you pushing back against all your fellow liberals in these threads, all their "smear by association" and near-total lack of reason in their "up is down, black is white" pretzel logic contortions.
So your plea for "reason" and civility is just another attempt to shut down conservative speech to leave a free path for liberal assholishness.
Maybe that isn't your intent.
It is the actual effect.
Now will you live up to your principle and take responsibility for what you are actually bringing about?
Nathan gets it.
Thanks Nathan.
Really, the I'm not dead yet shtick stopped being funny ten years ago.
The hell you say. That movie is STILL funny. I have a 7-year-old daughter and a 4-year-old daughter. Both of them will be that shatteringly rare of all females, women that enjoy Monty Python.
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