"... not for any legitimate public purpose but in order to advance a left-wing political agenda, and those guns were used to murder hundreds of Mexicans and at least one American border agent – which they were – then we are looking at a scandal that dwarfs any in modern American history."
John Hinderaker, trying to fathom Fast and Furious. We really do need an explanation. If Hinderaker's conclusion seems extreme, consider that it could be easily refuted by a clear statement from the Obama administration disclosing the true and legitimate purpose. The absence of such a statement propels us toward the extreme conclusion.
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১৭৯টি মন্তব্য:
Whenever there is a gap in information, our minds fill the gap with speculation. If the Obama administration doesn't like the speculation, the administration should fill the gap with data.
Eric Holder is incompetent and the man he works for is as well, but before we get all excited about this scandal, we should ask what people should have asked during Iran-Contra:
Were the motives behind these disastrous initiatives evil?
F&F was probably merely a combination of colossal (sp?) stupidity, incompetence, and yes, some political weirdness. Even Eric Holder, pathetic failure that he is, was probably trying to do the right thing.
Hey, this administration thinks 'advance a left-wing political agenda' is THE legitimate public purpose; as to the costs, "eggs, omelets, etc."
Not only the refusal to say "This is why" when lots of agents have flatly said "I see no law-enforcement purpose in this", but the hard work they're doing to screw over the agents who talked to Congress; put those together and you have 'coverup'. Whether for incompetence or malice is still to be fully determined.
I won't cut Holder that slack "trying to do the right thing". It's always the coverup and his starting position was that "I didn't know about it".
Then he starts throwing his minions under the bus. It's pretty clear that several people screwed the pooch here, and Holder was captain of the ship during this debacle.
Remember in the last two years of the Bush administration the press constantly harping on the politicization of the DOJ?
Funny how all those reporters are suddenly uninterested in any DOJ shenanigans.
Looks like the press took that drape off of Lady Justice's boobs and put on a blindfold.
Bob, if his 'trying to do the right thing' was using the power of his office to eff-up part of the Constitution, are we suupposed to say "Oh well, he meant well" and excuse it? Not a chance.
And based on what has come out so far, malice and "We want to push 'X' so screw the law and lives" is definitely involved.
ATF officials didn’t intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called “Demand Letter 3″
But you see, if you want to make an omelete, you need to break a few eggs.
When things are done for the "common good" the ends justify the means.
Period.
Gun confiscation starts with gun registration by new regulations.
Obama knows that he has no support for new regulations, unless he can create an appearance of a problem needing regulations.
Voila, La Probleme est arrive.
Obama salts gold dust into the "gold mine" he plans to sell us.
The key to understanding Obama is seeing that every move he makes is a drama based upon lies that he tells or pretends to believe.
How are Obama's Global Warming lies working out these days?
Even Eric Holder, pathetic failure that he is, was probably trying to do the right thing.
You are delusional.
This type of thinking enable Hilter, you know.
I'm not sure why anyone is bothering with this. Garage, Alpha, Cook, et al, have assured us that there's no "there" there on this "scandal".
Really, in the face of such a collection of knowledgeable insiders, why would anyone continue to look into this?
never let a crisis go to waste, even if you have to create the crisis
Didn't you make the same argument when you were trying to encourage the birthers to continue on their lunatic quest? ("If Obama has a long form birth certificate, why doesn't he just release it?") A few weeks later you looked like an idiot.
Here, you are doing the same thing--pondering a hypothetical you have absolutely no evidence for just because John Hinderaker (who hates Obama) says it.
Besides, even if Hinderaker's reckless speculation were true it is not "the worst scandal since pre-Civil War days." I would remind you of Iran-Contra, which not only shipped arms to Iran, but supplied arms to the Contras in direct violation of statute.
And of course I consider the war crimes (some of which were explicitly admitted by high ranking government officials) committed by the Bush Administration to be a much worse scandal.
What's Fast and Furious?
And don't tell me I should know by now, because a number of Dem congress people share my ignorance.
I would remind you of Iran-Contra, which not only shipped arms to Iran, but supplied arms to the Contras in direct violation of statute.
The Other Scandal Was Worse is not a good defense. Don't go there.
Were the motives behind these disastrous initiatives evil?
They wanted to use it to agitate for more gun control laws in the US.
Yes, it was rather evil.
Supposedly the ATF did the same thing-ish under the Bush administration, so I'm not buying that the original purpose was to further gun control....
...but the recent emails do tend to point that way.
consider that it could be easily refuted by a clear statement from the Obama administration disclosing the true and legitimate purpose.
They are pretending they didn't know anything about this, and now you want them to tell you the true and legitimate purpose for it?
I don't care. Obama is awesome.
Criminality rolls downhill from thw top. When there is a Usurper sitting in the POTUS chair, then their is no law, except for the "little" people. For We the People the law is draconian.
I do not buy either the ATF's official explanation, considering the manner in which the program was carried out, or the imputed one of creating a demand for more "gun control."
I don't believe even the Government could be that stupid.
So what did happen? Inquiring minds wish to know. For starters, Congress could look to see where money could be involved, see if there was any, and then follow the trail(s).
The Other Scandal Was Worse is not a good defense. Don't go there.
Hinderaker's specific conclusion (and apparently Althouse's too--although I am sure she will come back and say, "I never said I agreed with Hinderaker") was that if his baseless speculations were true, it would be the "worst scandal since pre-Civil War days". I was pointing out that his conclusion is incorrect.
You are 100% correct professor. When a condescending leader makes autocratic decisions and then doesn't think they need to explain, the door is open for speculation. Eric Holder demonstrated during the Clinton Admin. that he is not righteous by approving a pardon like the good errand boy he is. Now this. It does lead to speculation. He sells guns to Mexican drug lords and then cracks down on legal marijuana in Ca. used by legit patients, aiding and abetting these same drug lords. Do they have something on him? Pictures w/ Jerry Sandusky and little boys @ the Outback Bowl. I've worked extortion cases. it's incredible what people will do to cover up misdeeds.
When we have autocratic, unrighteous leaders we always pay a steep price. Holder must go. Because unrighteous people seldom redeem themselves.
Fast and Furious killed thousands of Mexicans, and some US citizens, including a murdered Border Patrol agent.
The goal has long been obvious: to use the fake scandal of guns-sold-to-drug cartels to force the creation of US gun control laws.
Obama makes awesome omelets, don't you think?
Didn't you make the same argument when you were trying to encourage the birthers to continue on their lunatic quest? ("If Obama has a long form birth certificate, why doesn't he just release it?") A few weeks later you looked like an idiot.
Which might happen here.
But the emails rom DoJ certainly don't paint anything Obama and his minions did in anything resembling a positive light.
Funny how he wants more regulation for everybody --- except HIS administration.
Here, you are doing the same thing--pondering a hypothetical you have absolutely no evidence for just because John Hinderaker (who hates Obama) says it.
That they wanted to use this to agitate for more gun control is not really deniable with the emails from DoJ. That was definitely one of the goals.
Were there others? We don't know. Obama and his retard A.G don't seem to know.
Besides, even if Hinderaker's reckless speculation were true it is not "the worst scandal since pre-Civil War days." I would remind you of Iran-Contra, which not only shipped arms to Iran, but supplied arms to the Contras in direct violation of statute.
Funny --- it actually DIDN'T violate the Boland Amendment. At all. It followed the LETTER of the law while ignoring the spirit of it. No money from the US Treasury went to anybody.
And of course I consider the war crimes (some of which were explicitly admitted by high ranking government officials) committed by the Bush Administration to be a much worse scandal.
Of course you do. Because dead Mexicans and a dead Border Patrol are a cost you're willing to bear.
You seem quite cavalier with the lives of others.
Answer a question: If there was ANY legitimate law enforcement done here --- why was Mexico not informed of this being done by the moron YOU elected into office?
What's Fast and Furious?
The DoJ forced gun dealers to sell guns to drug cartels and allowed the guns to cross over into Mexico. They decided to not actually track the guns or investigate. The guns were then used in multiple killings involving drug cartels (who are now well armed thanks to us) and the killing of a Border Patrol agent. The Mexican government had no idea this was going on and this was going on during that whole brief "hysteria" about how many guns used in killings in Mexico originated in the US and that is why we needed more strict gun control laws.
Holder claimed he didn't know it was going on, which means he's either lying, a bigger moron than we thought, or incompetent (all of which should disqualify him from office). Obama also claims he didn't know, which means the same applies to him.
I was pointing out that his conclusion is incorrect.
No, you were pointing out that your opinion doesn't agree with his opinion. Slightly different.
Care to weigh in on the facts of the matter instead of who's skeletons are piling up higher in the closet?
The only question is, how high does it go? Right now, Obama is not implicated and he may never be, but if he is, then we need to hurry up with trial and conviction before he returns to private life and a likely pardon.
If it goes no further than Holder, then I'm guessing there will be no pardon.
Jay for the Godwin's law score at eleven minutes! A new record!
"... not for any legitimate public purpose but in order to advance a left-wing political agenda... then we are looking at a scandal that dwarfs any in modern American history"
I stand corrected.
Previously, I compared F&F to the Tuskegee Experiment.
F&F is worse.
At least the Tuskegee Experiment had a legitimate scientific purpose, albeit unethical, in performing a lethal placebo test on unconsenting subjects of a particular racial background.
Supposedly the ATF did the same thing-ish under the Bush administration, so I'm not buying that the original purpose was to further gun control....
With the exceedingly minor difference that there was an effort to, you know, ACTUALLY TRACK THE WEAPONS.
Dear Lord, we refuse to lose the Republic, don't we?
Hinderaker's specific conclusion (and apparently Althouse's too--although I am sure she will come back and say, "I never said I agreed with Hinderaker") was that if his baseless speculations were true, it would be the "worst scandal since pre-Civil War days". I was pointing out that his conclusion is incorrect.
Yes, forcing gun dealers to sell to people who shouldn't have guns sold to them; having those guns used to kill 200+ Mexicans and at least one border agents --- and using THAT as a pretext to violate Constitutional rights?
Yeah, that's nothing.
Supposedly the ATF did the same thing-ish under the Bush administration, so I'm not buying that the original purpose was to further gun control....
Even Holder says Operation Wide Receiver has virtually nothing in common with this. There is no comparison here and to even attempt it means you don't know what you're talking about.
Not least of which, we informed the Mexican government and attempted to track the firearms.
Freder Frederson said...
Here, you are doing the same thing--pondering a hypothetical you have absolutely no evidence for
Hysterical.
"No evidenc" except ATF emails.
The lies you must tell yourself in order to be a leftist are endless.
And let me be the first:
Free Mumia!
Oops.
I mean, Free the guy that killed the US Border Patrol Agent!
I would remind you of Iran-Contra, which not only shipped arms to Iran, but supplied arms to the Contras in direct violation of statute.
And that makes it all ok, right?
I mean, what's a couple of hundred dead Mexicans and a border patrol agent when you can shout "Iran Contra," (which you don't even know the facts about), right?
Supposedly the ATF did the same thing-ish under the Bush administration, so I'm not buying that the original purpose was to further gun control....
...but the recent emails do tend to point that way.
----------
No, they didn't.
There were programs to track illegal over the border sales of guns, but there was nothing like this, where ATF agents encouraged and even threatened gun shop owners to make illegal sales to gun runners. ATF agents were even directly involved in some straw purchases of guns that went to the cartels.
Don't spread misinformation.
Freder Frederson said...
I was pointing out that his conclusion is incorrect.
Considering your head in the sand ignorance on the matter, that would literally be impossible.
Care to weigh in on the facts of the matter instead of who's skeletons are piling up higher in the closet?
Althouse isn't dwelling on the facts, only Hinderaker's conclusion drawn from his extreme reading of the available facts.
I am commenting on Althouse's apparent support of the contention that this "we are looking at a scandal that dwarfs any in modern American history." This is the statement we are debating. Obviously to examine this conclusion we must compare this scandal to others in modern American History. I can think of worse scandals (even if Hinderaker's interpretation of the facts are true) without even trying hard.
You can think of worse scandals than arming a foreign country's drug cartels without that country's knowledge, having them kill hundreds of their people and one of our border agents and using that fact to attack Constitutional Rights?
Which one?
Freder Frederson said...
And of course I consider the war crimes (some of which were explicitly admitted by high ranking government officials) committed by the Bush Administration to be a much worse scandal.
Laugh out loud funny.
That is piss poor attempt #2 to change the subject.
PS, nobody admitted any "war crimes" and no "war crimes" were committed.
Idiot.
That's the "Chicago Way". All the people injured/killed, the betrayal of the rule of law, the damage and offense done to another country is just background noise to these pricks.
Which one?
Freeder has convinced herself that there were "War Crimes"!!!!
Isn't that convenient?
There is zero chance that any bureaucrat of long timer in any of these agencies would have even DREAMED of doing something like Fast and Furious on their own.
They would never have stuck their neck out this way. Never. There is simply no upside to this. NO MATTER WHAT REASON they had dreamed up, no one would have followed through on Fast and Furious for fear of the blowback.
So the only possible instigator of such a program was the VERY VERY VERY top of DoJ and White House, because everyone else would have seen visions of being tossed out, losing their pension, losing their job, maybe going to prison.
So given Fast and Furious had to come from Holder and Obama, then what possible purpose could it have been for? And then we come back to sounding extreme, because again, we can't fathom how this helps a) our nation, b) our relationship with Mexico, c) arguments about immigations, etc.
Had the MSM cared this story would have broke last summer. They were, and are still hoping it will just go away.
When "good intentioned" Republicans break the law people go to prison, when "good intentioned" Democrats break the law- we know they meant well, and theres no need need for the ugliness of trials and such. After all they meant well, and that's all that maters. With the possible exception of Illinois governors, But for them going to prison just seems to be rite of passage.
damikesc said...
"Didn't you make the same argument when you were trying to encourage the birthers to continue on their lunatic quest? ("If Obama has a long form birth certificate, why doesn't he just release it?") A few weeks later you looked like an idiot."
Birth Certificate? WHO saw it. Did any legal authority examine it, or was it displayed like the sleeves of a magician?
Not that it makes any difference, since any "law prof" would certainly know that bith in the US does not a natural born Citizen make (doesn't she?). The nationality of the parents matters just as much, as the CIC of the Armed forces is supposed to be born free of any foreign allegiance.
Birth Certificate notwithstanding, Obama has already admitted to birth as a British subject of a British subject father, and that alone voids any natural born Citizenship, and makes him ineligible.
Here is a real "law prof" explaining how Obama is a Usurper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIf0GwaAyI8
WV: berpu--- burp and shit at the same time.
Bob Ellison said, "Even Eric Holder, pathetic failure that he is, was probably trying to do the right thing."
Only right in his warped mind.
I look forward to Holder going before a House committee when the evidence is finally in. And I look forward to seeing him thrown under the bus by Obama.
Supposedly the ATF did the same thing-ish under the Bush administration, so I'm not buying that the original purpose was to further gun control....
IIRC the differences were:
1. Bush informed the Mexican government of the program
2. RFID trackers were added to the guns (they actually attempted to track them)
3. When a gun did make it across the border they immediately informed the Mexicans.
I too started out scoffing at the idea that this was undercover gun control, but the more we learn, the harder it is to come up with an alternative reason. I honestly would like one, as this is a scary theory
Besides, even if Hinderaker's reckless speculation were true it is not "the worst scandal since pre-Civil War days." I would remind you of Iran-Contra, which not only shipped arms to Iran, but supplied arms to the Contras in direct violation of statute.
----------
Idiot, please. Iran-Contra involved legitimate foreign policy goals and there were no laws broken. The most partisan special prosecutor in our nations history tried to find something but all he managed to do was nab Ollie North on some unrelated felony convictions that were later thrown out.
nobody admitted any "war crimes" and no "war crimes" were committed.
Rumsfeld, in a press conference, admitted ordering the military to hide detainees (in Iraq, which the Administration repeatedly stated was covered by the Geneva Conventions) from the Red Cross at the request of the CIA. This is a clear violation of the Conventions.
Also, even if the treatment of certain detainees did not meet the definition of torture (and the military admits that detainees died after brutal treatment and other classic torture techniques), the applicable treaties require more than just avoiding torture. They also the use of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
Are you arguing that the treatment was not cruel, inhuman or degrading?
Again, the main point here is that for a guy that was supposed to be *so* smart - why did he make so many bone-headed decisions? Or hire so many idiots?
Rumsfeld, in a press conference, admitted ordering the military to hide detainees (in Iraq, which the Administration repeatedly stated was covered by the Geneva Conventions) from the Red Cross at the request of the CIA.
That is a hysterical lie.
Pathetic attempt #3 to change the subject rolls on...
the military admits that detainees died after brutal treatment and other classic torture techniques),
That is also a lie.
As usual the A-tards overlook a key element: the recent ATF program requires that gun dealers report tracing information, especially bulk sales of semis. A good idea---ie, good like preventing Jared Loughners, or Chos. Did the Obama Admin. go around the ATF? In that case it would be a scandal but that's not been established.
I'm agnostic on guns but a firm believer in transparency. One of the biggest disappointments of my vote has been the current administration's secrecy, which makes the previous one seem open and forthright. One can imagine a McCain administration as more open and honest, if only because it would have been so boring.
Hey Byro-Jay, now siding with the NRA boys and freepers--don't bother opening your illiterate yap. Better, define subluxation
Althouse isn't dwelling on the facts, only Hinderaker's conclusion drawn from his extreme reading of the available facts.
I am commenting on Althouse's apparent support of the contention that this "we are looking at a scandal that dwarfs any in modern American history."
Agreed. Given the mounting evidence against the ATF and the DoJ, you're grasping at the one tenuous contrary position you can instead of looking at the facts and admitting, "well, shit...that doesn't look good at all" which would most likely be your first impulse rather than, "this is wrong".
While J shows his own bile-filled ignorance, the tracing of multiple sales has nothing to do with a "Jared Loughner" who used a single firearm. But fact and logic has long ago been abandoned by gun control advocates, who are still defending the murderous criminality of the ATF.
J said...
. A good idea---ie, good like preventing Jared Loughners,
Hysterical.
Yes, "tracing" would have prevented this.
Good grief, the lies you leftists tell yourselves...
Hinderaker has long been a hysterical crank.
Obama's idea of advancing a "left wing agenda" is to pass a health insurance reform bill that forces more customers into the hands of private, for-profit insurance companies.
Supposedly the ATF did the same thing-ish under the Bush administration, so I'm not buying that the original purpose was to further gun control....
Operation Wide Receiver differed from Operation Fast and Furious in the following ways:
- The guns were traced over and beyond the border
- Mexican authorities were briefed and participated in the tracking
- indictments were made
Robert Cook said...
Hinderaker has long been a hysterical crank.
Obama's idea of advancing a "left wing agenda" is to pass a health insurance reform bill that forces more customers into the hands of private, for-profit insurance companies
Oh look, yet another attempt to change the subject.
Shocking.
J vs Jay
Hillary Clinton, Eric Holder, Janet Napolitano, and Barack Obama and Mexican President Felipe Calderón are all on record propounding the bogus 90% figure relating to the number of American manufactured guns used in cartel crimes. They all knew the 90% figure is bogus but they stuck with it anyway. Why? The figure is 8% (July 09 PJmedia).
Hinderaker has long been a hysterical crank.
Obama's idea of advancing a "left wing agenda" is to pass a health insurance reform bill that forces more customers into the hands of private, for-profit insurance companies.
---------
What does Obama's terrible health care law have to do with Fast and Furious.
Obama's idea of advancing a "left wing agenda" is to pass a health insurance reform bill that forces more customers into the hands of private, for-profit insurance companies.
Deflection.
Monkeyboy beat me to the same points :)
Extreme conclusion? It could be backed up by all the newspaper articles and editorials in favor of more gun control which sited all the American weapons flooding Mexico.
Maybe the intention was to supply the Galindo Cartel with weapons so that they could defeat the other cartels and restore some semblance of stability to Mexico.
Or maybe I’m thinking of Sons of Anarchy.
Really? Really?! Really.
Some of you STILL making excuses? Listen, they did NOT put it into a memo, or a e-mail that they were going to undermine the second amendment by coercing Americans to sell weapons to gangsters.
Even if such a memo existed before. it no longer does now. You're talking about a group that can't, or won't, and is there any doubt which it is, since they've produced 3 forgeries so far, a birth certificate.
And for the last time, no one, listen close, closer...NO ONE in Washington is going to spend a second in handcuffs let alone go to jail. Have you not got it yet that, WE, the American people, have no hold on these people. They shake us down in way that makes the mafia envious.
If any congressional hearing ,or investigation comes NEAR Holder, or Panetta, or any dozens of thugs and criminals in this White House, Alfred E. Newman'll whip out his pen and sign presidential pardons for everyone!!!!!
YOU, Althouse are to blame for the death of Brian Terry and hundreds, let that thought trickle in you're head, HUNDREDS of Mexicans. You and every libtard who turned a blind eye to what a threat this monster we have in the White House is.
And don't give me this "We didn't know excuse" either. So the fuck what? I knew. You know how? Because if you hang around terrorist, like Bill Ayers, and Bernadine Dourn, and racist like Rev. (what a joke) Wright, then you probably agree with them.
I don't hang around, associate, sit in a pew or anything with those kind of people, and no decent person would.
Fuck all proof. There is no proof. But there is basic common sense, a thing sadly lacking in Liberal Leftist philosophy. "Oh, its wrong to judge someone if you haven't walked in their shoes!" Bullshit! Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit!
I don't need to walk a mile in a klanmans shoes to know he's evil. I don't need to walk in a pedophiles shoes to know he's evil, and I don't need to walk a mile in the angry sock monkeys shoes to know he is anti-thetical to American values.
Take some responsibility! Admit you effed up voting for this slug. Quit making excuses for his bad behavior. I saw on Drudge that the Wookie was going to fly to Hawaii ahead of. Put her in a pompadore wig and tell me that's not Marie Antoinette!
This next election is an intelligence test. Well see who actually thinks, or just "thinks Obama was treated unfairly"
Oh! By the way, your GodZero cheated to get on the ballot in Indiana. Who would've guessed.
There's no "proof" Barry came in and forged the names, so its all right.
"The goal has long been obvious: to use the fake scandal of guns-sold-to-drug cartels to force the creation of US gun control laws."
"Obvious" to those who reside on the lunatic fringe, perhaps; to the non-delusional...not so much.
I have spent a great deal of time in the non-tourist parts of Mexico, including non-trivial periods in Chiapas during the Zapatista debacle.
There is not the slightest need for anyone in Mexico to import weapons from the USA, especially not AKs and AR15/M16s in full auto. They are all over the place, and they're cheap.
Ginning up gun sales from the US to Mexico must perforce have had another purpose. The simplest, most obvious, and most cogent explanation is that the people running the DoJ program wanted American-sourced guns to be present in Mexico.
I don't think Hindraker is being the least bit extreme in drawing the most logical conclusion from presently available evidence; a conclusion entirely consistent with both the Mexican weapon environment and the current administration's political orientations, goals, and tactics.
So Freder advances the "reasonable" leftist position that it's ok to take actions resulting in hundreds of deaths of brown people because (a) Hinderaker thinks Obama is bad for America (let's ignore the idiotic appeal to emotion "hates"), and (b) random other stuff ocurred.
Separately he compares this to the long form birth certificate controversy, but somehow manages to learn the exact wrong lesson. Just after the professor noted that Obama could end the controversy by releasing the form Obama in fact did so and the controversy disappeared. So after the professor was proven 100% correct, Freder concludes ... whatever he thinks most advantageous to his current argument. Facts and logic are irrelevant in the school of the left, and we see Freder learned that lesson well.
There really is no limit to the ability of leftists to delude themselves.
Guns don't kill people.
"What does Obama's terrible health care law have to do with Fast and Furious."
Obama's bad bill, copied from Mitt Romney, has nothing to do with Fast and Furious, just as Obama has nothing to do with any "left-wing agenda."
Guns don't kill people
...Obama policies do.
YOU, Althouse are to blame for the death of Brian Terry and hundreds, let that thought trickle in you're head, HUNDREDS of Mexicans. You and every libtard who turned a blind eye to what a threat this monster we have in the White House is.
And don't give me this "We didn't know excuse" either. So the fuck what? I knew. You know how? Because if you hang around terrorist, like Bill Ayers, and Bernadine Dourn, and racist like Rev. (what a joke) Wright, then you probably agree with them.
Outrageous, Koresh-like rant. Ban it (or rather, trace it, and ban its 50 names, and put it on Thorazine).
Obama's bad bill, copied from Mitt Romney, has nothing to do with Fast and Furious, just as Obama has nothing to do with any "left-wing agenda."
Gun control is a left-wing tenet. If it comes to light, in the end, that this whole thing was an attempt to gin up fervor in support of passing more stringent gun control, regardless of your deflection, his administration would have been pursuing an end desired by the left-wing.
Seems pretty simple:
Bush's people did the program for the right reasons and with the right controls.
Obama's people came in, saw how it could be used for their purposes, appreciated the cover of "Bush did it too", and proceeded to use it for their aims. Oh yea, and killed a bunch of people in the process, which helps their purposes even more, until they got caught.
They still haven't been caught by the MSM. The media are busy measuring the extent of Cain's libido for us. They are just about finished, and will get right on this soon - around Feb. 2013 I bet.
Man, it would be so cool if Cookie/Freder/et al. could stop with the ad hominems, the tu quoques, and the squirrel! for just a few moments and explain:
What was the purpose of F&F?
Why was it screwed up so badly?
Robert Cook said...
"Obvious" to those who reside on the lunatic fringe, perhaps; to the non-delusional...not so much.
And your explanation of this would be?
On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:
"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."
And your explanation of this would be?
ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
Don't worry, shit ape, I know you're busy ignoring the facts.
What does Obama's terrible health care law have to do with Fast and Furious.
They are similar in this: Obamacare is designed to destroy private healthcare in the U.S. just as fast and Furious was designed to destroy private gun ownership.
Althouse isn't dwelling on the facts, only Hinderaker's conclusion drawn from his extreme reading of the available facts
available facts, hmmmm
rummage, rummage, wasn't a fave dem phrase something about the appearance of impropriety
or
the absense of evidence?
and then we must hold hearings?
facts? Why do only republicans need facts?
Which in the DoJ & ATF's own internal communications, looking pretty grim.
"SPImmortal said...
Hinderaker has long been a hysterical crank."
That certainly has been the left's best effort to discredit him since he helped publicize the Dan Rather Mary Mapes fake. And it works on the leftist sheep who simply accept such ridiculous statements from their masters. On the bright side the vast majority of Americans reject the idea that disagreeing with a leftist = hysterical.
What if the drug violence and reach of the mexican drug cartels is so out of control the obama regime is reduced to these hair brained tracking schemes to get a handle on an out of control problem? When Iraq veterans who work as border guards say their job reminds them too much of Bagdad we should stop, look and listen.
I didn't bring it up --and wouldn't have-- but since someone else did, let me just say that I for one am not convinced the supposed birth certificate that magically appeared is the real deal. For numerous reasons. But it did serve its intended purpose of shutting Donald trump up on the subject.
As for leftard comparisons to Iran-Contra, amazing how the leftards don't seem to remember full-blown televised Congressional hearings and prosecutions by special prosecutors in which all manner of questions were asked. Are you saying that's what is called for here with F&F?
Gun control is a left-wing tenet.
Actually it's not Scott-tard. It's a statist tenet, as opposed to vegas-glibertarian yokel tenets
If this had happened on John Ashcroft's watch, Bob Woodward would already have a book out about it.
And Ashscroft would be fighting off criminal charges until he was beyond destitute from paying legal defense fees.
"Gun control is a left-wing tenet. If it comes to light, in the end, that this whole thing was an attempt to gin up fervor in support of passing more stringent gun control, regardless of your deflection, his administration would have been pursuing an end desired by the left-wing."
The notion that Obama's administration flooded Mexico with weapons in order that the expected flood of killings of Mexicans by U.S. weapons would provide cause for broad and draconian gun control legislation in America is the big, unproven "IF" here.
The idea is the fever dream of right wing paranoiacs.
(It doesn't even make sense: does anyone think Americans care in the least about more Mexicans being murdered, or that the provenance of the weapons involved would change that indifference one iota?)
The notion that Obama's administration flooded Mexico with weapons in order that the expected flood of killings of Mexicans by U.S. weapons would provide cause for broad and draconian gun control legislation in America is the big, unproven "IF" here.
I said as much. Why do you bother to repeat it?
Only a Demo-snitch aka phony defends the Administration at any cost, and that's you "Cook." Even the 60s weren't about supporting Nixon OR LBJ bureaucrats.
Why is anyone surprised about F & F given Holder's record under the Clinton Administration?
Nixon had infinitely better reasons for Watergate than Obama for F & F, there were communists involved in the democratic campaign. Freder The Communist is all bent out of shape about Iran-Contra.He probably has no clue of the facts or is willfully ignorant of them. naturally he forgets that the democrat-communistsin congress passed an amendment to the defense budget forbidding the funding of arms for the contras. The contras being freedom fighters against the democrats darling communist Sandinistas. So Reagan sold weapons to Iran to keep them from being defeated by Saddam Hussein thus keeping both sides down and weakened and using the profits to overthrow enemies of the United States in Central America. Only democrat-communists would have a problem with that.
But forcing legitimate gun dealers to make illegal sales to gangsters so they can create a situation to be able to push for more gun control is a legitimate operation in the eyes of Freder. When the next Republican Administration comes in to office, Holder will be sharing a jail cell with Blago.
"Didn't you make the same argument when you were trying to encourage the birthers to continue on their lunatic quest? ("If Obama has a long form birth certificate, why doesn't he just release it?") A few weeks later you looked like an idiot."
I have downloaded the form posted on the WH website.
It is a heavily-manipulated vector document, not a scan.
There are 10 grouped sublayers in one remaining layer. Three are empty, some are signatures and dates. One layer is the green background.
I've never been a "birther", but out of curiosity I analyzed the document.
My thought on seeing the manipulation was "Holy Shit!"
This document would never hold up in a court of law, due to the obvious manipulation.
FWIW
" does anyone think Americans care in the least about more Mexicans being murdered, or that the provenance of the weapons involved would change that indifference one iota?)"
Absolutely, Maybe you don't care about Mexicans (and Americans) being murdered with the help of the government you pay for, but some do.
If this was just standard (non governmental) gun running using American gun dealers to these ends, then yes the left would use it breathlessly to propel gun control, and they would use the episode forever. Thus the value of doing it for this administration - the motive.
The notion that Obama's administration flooded Mexico with weapons in order that the expected flood of killings of Mexicans by U.S. weapons would provide cause for broad and draconian gun control legislation in America is the big, unproven "IF" here.
-------
I don't think you've even read the emails, obtained by that right wing fever swamp CBS news.
Why don't you go ahead and read them and then get back to us with your opinion of their contents. I think you're hiding your eyes from this scandal.
It doesn't even make sense: does anyone think Americans care in the least about more Mexicans being murdered, or that the provenance of the weapons involved would change that indifference one iota?)
Um, the opinions of Americans have little relation to the Obama Administration putting forth regulations.
By the way, it is classic to watch you skip over the ATF emails, shit ape.
I had forgotten about Iran Contra, but have long agreed with Hinderaker that this should be the biggest scandal of our lifetimes.
What Freder fails to accept when it comes to Iran-Contra is that it was a one-sided scandal. The left was outraged that they were out maneuvered by the Reaganites. But what has to be kept in mind there is that it was really a separation of powers issue, and the Reaganites more likely than not would have won. It was about as far into the Executive's plenary power as you can get, encompassing both foreign relations and national security, where the Congress (impermissibly) tried to tie the President's hands, with essentially no domestic content.
But forcing legitimate gun dealers to make illegal sales to gangsters so they can create a situation to be able to push for more gun control is a legitimate operation in the eyes of Freder.
And allowing even more American deaths and incursions into the USA.
Always wanting to leave hardworking Americans defenseless against the evil.
"Absolutely, Maybe you don't care about Mexicans (and Americans) being murdered with the help of the government you pay for, but some do."
No.
"Bleeding heart leftists" aside, Americans don't care about the brutal treatment of anyone in the world, particularly not when such brutal treatment--killings, torture, imprisonment--can be tied to America in any way.
"On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF’s Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:"
“Bill – can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks.”
Yep. Sure sounds like the fevered dreams of right-wing paranoiacs.
If nothing else, we've finally found a US government action that Cook's not trembling with outrage about. All those dead Mexicans were probably kulaks anyway.
Robert Cook said...
(It doesn't even make sense: does anyone think Americans care in the least about more Mexicans being murdered, or that the provenance of the weapons involved would change that indifference one iota?)
Yes, it doesn't make sense to the communist idiot that the President would stand in the White House and annouce that based on data and recommendations from the ATF, new regulations regarding the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns," are needed.
All very nonsensical and perplexing to the shit ape.
"Robert Cook said...
(It doesn't even make sense: does anyone think Americans care in the least about more Mexicans being murdered, or that the provenance of the weapons involved would change that indifference one iota?)"
I think it's funny that lefties, who pretend they are for all these poor brown people, and want to provide santuary for them, really don't care if they are used as cannon fodder if it means protecting their own.
But to answer this question...yes, I think they do. Especially since it is spilling over across the border, and that a border guard was also killed.
Barring new details, currently unknown to anyone outside those involved, the "extreme" one is the only explanation that adds up. I don't think there's anything crazy about it.
I think it's too crazy even for this administration to develop and deploy from scratch for these purposes, but since it was already in place, could be blamed on Bush, and all they had to do was screw it up to get it to do what they wanted, then yes now it becomes very plausible that they knew it would kill people. Stupid, evil - yes, but that still fits this administration's rap sheet.
(It doesn't even make sense: does anyone think Americans care in the least about more Mexicans being murdered, or that the provenance of the weapons involved would change that indifference one iota?)
-------------
The NYT and every major left wing news outlet thought we would care, or else they would have provided saturation coverage about how many guns from America were being used by the cartel to kill Mexican citizens? It was all over the news around the time that Fast and Furious was ramping up, and now we have emails linking F&F to a gun control agenda. Curious, it's almost like the news coverage was co-ordinated, eh?
does anyone think Americans care in the least about more Mexicans being murdered
Obviously you couldn't give less of a damn about it. You've used the murder of hundreds of Mexicans as an occasion to argue (1) health care in America isn't socialist enough, and (2) the people who are expressing outrage at the murders aren't as compassionate as you are.
Paul Zrimsek said...
If nothing else, we've finally found a US government action that Cook's not trembling with outrage about
Yes.
Notice the shit ape is all in a lather about (non-existent) "War crimes" but could give a rat's ass about the gunning down of hundreds of people.
Why it is almost as if his war crimes calls of outrage are meaningless or something.
Ahhh, could F&F be considered nothing more than "workplace violence?" Drug running is violent and their workplace is enormous.
Sen. Susan Collins on Wednesday blasted the Defense Department for classifying the Fort Hood massacre as workplace violence and suggested political correctness is being placed above the security of the nation's Armed Forces at home
"Bleeding heart leftists" aside, Americans don't care about the brutal treatment of anyone in the world, particularly not when such brutal treatment--killings, torture, imprisonment--can be tied to America in any way
LOLOLOLOL
That's funny. Only Americans don't care because the rest of the world cares soooo much. Let Europe handle it. The world can handle it, there are more of them than us. The also have more money.
Let the UN handle it. Oh, wait, they're partially the cause! BWAAAAAAAAAAAA
There is not the slightest need for anyone in Mexico to import weapons from the USA, especially not AKs and AR15/M16s in full auto. They are all over the place, and they're cheap.
That was the weird thing - the guns involved in F&F were apparently semi-automatics, not full auto. The one type of gun that may not have been readily available from elsewhere were the high quality .50 caliber rifles.
Fully automatic weapons are apparently flooding into Mexico from other sources by the shipping container load, or larger, from all around the world. And, yes, the U.S. govt. has been apparently supplying such too in govt. to govt. transfers to arm the army and police (some of whose members turn around and sell their weapons).
That is part of why this program has always been a bit weird for me - why would the (primarily) Sinaloa Cartel really want our semi-automatic AR and AK variants, when they were already getting the full-auto versions probably more cheaply?
"Americans don't care about the brutal treatment of anyone in the world,"
Now you're just being an idiot, Cook.
But besides that:
"Americans" includes many millions with direct family ties to Mexico. I know and am related to many, and I can tell you they blames the U.S. for much of the violence there, wrongly or rightly. If this succeeded, it would have helped the gun control lobby enormously. Again: motive.
Protestants, mormons, and ortho-jews not allowed to blog.
Rule # 1.
Tweektest time at the Gumphouse!
Ya got that garag? bust these freaks.
Really Hindraker's conclusion is actually the least damaging to the Obama administration. Other possibilities are that they were backing the Sinaloa Cartel against the other cartels and the Mexican government. That they were trying to destabilize Mexico so that more immigrants would come here and change the political center of the United States. The only thing that we can be sure of is that the operation wasn't and couldn't result in the arrests of high level drug lords who were in Mexico outside the jurisdiction of the BATFE.
Question – if Obama pardons Holder before he leaves office but the Mexican government wanted to put Holder on trial as an accessory for the deaths or some other criminal charges, would a presidential pardon prevent Holder from being extradited to Mexico to stand trial?
I’m not saying that would be likely to happen. I think it unlikely that a president would sanction extraditing a former government official to stand trial in a foreign jurisdiction for crimes that were committed as part of a policy sanctioned by a previous government.
On the other hand, if the next administration is looking to repair our relationship with Mexico or get their cooperation (or at least mute some of their objections) on securing our shared border, perhaps turning over Holder would be one way to do that.
What if the drug violence and reach of the mexican drug cartels is so out of control the obama regime is reduced to these hair brained tracking schemes to get a handle on an out of control problem?
But this wasn't even that. They made no effort to track the guns.
Even if Holder didn't know about it, the Sgt Schultz defense ("I see nussing, I know nussing...") won't fly simply because he should have known.
As for GodZero, the simple fact this was initiated by people he appointed is a big indictment of his judgment. How much of a nod to his policy views it might be makes it worse.
"If Hinderaker's conclusion seems extreme, consider that it could be easily refuted by a clear statement from the Obama administration disclosing the true and legitimate purpose."
It might if anyone with two brain cells functional (which leaves out our three tertiary syphilis victims, AlphaLib, J, and garage) was inclined to believe any statement from any member of this administration, including that water is wet.
If you really want all the details on Fast and Furious I highly recommend starting at http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/. David Codrea and Mike Vanderboegh are the two that have done the majority of the original reporting on this story. David is also on Facebook and posts links every day on what is going on.
Bruce Hayden said...
That is part of why this program has always been a bit weird for me - why would the (primarily) Sinaloa Cartel really want our semi-automatic AR and AK variants, when they were already getting the full-auto versions probably more cheaply?
Note the long gun rules
1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Your life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
9.5 Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a ".4"
I am trying to find out if there is some sinister connection between:
The proposed UN small arms treaty, Barack Obama as Chairman of the UN Security Council, and the Obama administration providing the enemy of the Mexican people with thousands of weapons and
grenades .
As much as I cannot stand Holder and his boss, I can't believe that they let thousands of weapons go to the cartels JUST to justify more gun control. The conspiracy theory to which I currently subscribe is that the goal was to arm the Sianolas and other cartels again the Zeta Cartel, because the Zetas were getting too powerful and some in the Admin thought they could make a serious move against some state governments in Mexico or even the Mexican federal government. Of course, there was also the collateral "benefit" of creating a crisis which would create the need for more gun control in the US (and more funds for the ATF to enforce the stricter rules), but I don't think that was the primary motivation.
By way of background, the Zetas core membership is ex-Mexican Army, including special forces, and their brutality stands out even among their peer cartels.
While I agree with Hinderaker's conclusions, I'll also agree with Robert Cook's assertion that Americans really don't care all that much about dead Mexicans.
If they did, they wouldn't be snorting blow or huffing weed in order to create the demand for what the Cartels supply. That's a lot of blow and weed, and a lot of "collateral damage" in order to facilitate your high.
That, folks, is the elephant in the corner that everyone is trying to ignore.
Next time a dozen headless bodies show up at a dump site in T-J, you might want to ponder why.
For the record, I'm very much against the war on some drugs. Legalize it all and surtax the hell out of it.
A couple more things to keep in mind here. First, F&F does not appear to be the only gun-walking program that the BATF/DoJ concocted and carried out - just the only one arming an internally recognized drug cartel. There is a saying that twice is a coincidence and three times is enstatemy action, or something like that. We are talking 4-6 or so states now where this sort of thing apparently happened.
Secondly though, one of the downsides to arming an internally recognized drug cartel is that the DoJ may not be able to waive that for its people, due to the Drug Kingpin Act, (see Gunrunner: “Justice” Department violated federal law while implementing Fast and Furious). Apparently, the law applies to government agencies, as well as individuals, and the only "out" for government agencies is if the AG (Holder) had requested a waiver before hand - and that is unlikely, since he has repeatedly stated that he knew nothing about the program.
Should be interesting.
"... . I was pointing out that his conclusion is incorrect..."
No like Hindraker you were voicing an opinion. Your contention that selling arms to anti communist insurgents was worse really doesn't come as much surprise.
I just heard Holder talking about it on the news,
and he said "it's inexcusable"
So Im wondering exactly who is he not going to excuse?
Freder said: "Didn't you make the same argument when you were trying to encourage the birthers...A few weeks later you looked like an idiot."
And so now we see why Obama hesitated to release the birth certificate.
Now he can use this faux scandal, and the ignominy that it brought to those who pushed it, to portray anyone attempting to reveal a real scandal as a crank.
That's why I pleaded with you to drop the birther stuff, Mick. You're an enabler of the Great Usurper, despite your noble motives. (Assuming you have noble motives; and you're not just an Obama supporter, pushing that birther stuff.)
Yeah, this Fast & Furious thing appears to be just as bad as you can imagine: They instructed people to sell guns to known criminals, with no way to follow and recover these weapons; to create a guns-in-the-wrong-hands problem, that they could then solve with stricter gun control, like the multiple-sales tracking policy that they tried to push through.
There are actual emails that have been released where they suggested using these sales to push their agenda.
I don't know how anyone can defend this, on any level, for any reason. I'm really very surprised to see you here doing just that, Cooke. Alpha Liberal or garage, sure; but I thought you were more of a liberal libertarian and rule-of-law guy, Cooke, and less of a partisan shill.
Or better yet....
Who will stand trial for these inexcusable acts?
Here is the original article from which my previous post about the Drug Kingpin Act was based: Gunwalker: Justice Dept. Violated U.S. Laws Beyond Those Being Investigated
What was done here (and the smoking gun is now in the open for everyone to see: tying F&F to Demand Letter 3) was analogous to allowing a nuclear reactor to meltdown in order to bolster antinuclear efforts. Except F&F killed more people than any nuclear accident has (though we'll have to give Chernobyl and Fukushima time; for that matter we'll have to do the same with F&F).
And, if we weren't having fun before, the DEA apparently was runningGunwalker’s Cousin: ‘Moneywalker’?: Reports surface of the Drug Enforcement Administration laundering cartel drug money. We are possibly talking hundreds of millions of dollars here being laundered for Mexican cartels.
As usual the A-tards overlook a key element: the recent ATF program requires that gun dealers report tracing information, especially bulk sales of semis. A good idea---ie, good like preventing Jared Loughners, or Chos. Did the Obama Admin. go around the ATF? In that case it would be a scandal but that's not been established.
All the safeguards that everyone else must observe were gotten around by the ATF.
No background checks.
No form 1174(?)
illegal straw purchases.
It was so unusual the dealers asked for proof in writing that what they were doing was legal, because the ATF and FBI were breaking their own laws.
This is not a bunch of local bureaucrats ginning up an operation to impress the boss. This law breaking on a grand scale.
What would the "legitimate public purpose" of shipping arms to Mexican drug gangs conceivably be?
"... Bleeding heart leftists" aside, Americans don't care about the brutal treatment of anyone in the world,..."
You really are one patheic person Cook. I still chuckle that for someone who loathes his nation and countrymen as much as you do, that you continue to want to live here.
Then again leftists like yourself are like most spoiled teens who hate their parents but sure like the benefits of living under their roof.
What would the "legitimate public purpose" of shipping arms to Mexican drug gangs conceivably be?
Due to the huge trade imbalance with China, we have an enormous number of empty crates in our country. I'm sure that the administration was trying to kill two birds with one stone, not a bunch of Mexicans and a US border agent.
You do understand that they meant well, don't you? Doesn't that mean anything?
If you don't like the "it was to prove we need stricter gun laws theory"
Then we'll try the occam's razor approach.
We gave guns to people who shouldn't have them, and the people who shouldn't have them killed people who shouldn't have been killed. So the simplest answer is that we wanted to kill innocent people, and succeeded.
That makes a lot more sense than some wild story about making a case for stiffer gun laws.
"Except F&F killed more people than any nuclear accident has...."
Chernobyl has been estimated to have caused the deaths of a million people. Fukushima--in time--may cause at least that many fatalities.
"We really do need an explanation. If Hinderaker's conclusion seems extreme, consider that it could be easily refuted by a clear statement from the Obama administration disclosing the true and legitimate purpose. The absence of such a statement propels us toward the extreme conclusion."
Do we really need an explanation?
Isn't obvious that Obama voters, and their enablers in the mainstream media couldn't care less about this, unless and until there is some conclusive evidence that all the evidence to date is in fact wrong and the administration is exonerated?
It's just like Jaunita Broaddrick's nearly airtight rape allegation against Clinton; Clinton voters didn't give two shits about that, or her, because it clouded the value of the Clinton presidency to them.
Does anyone really think there are enough Obama voters who care enough about the rule of law that they'd make him pay an electoral price? Obama could go all Col. Jessup on Fast and Furious:
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?
Col. Jessep: I did the job I...
Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red?
Col. Jessep: You're Goddamn right I did!
...and he'll still get nearly all of his voters from '08.
(The Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Chernobyl has been estimated to have caused the deaths of a million people
Yeah by Anti-Nuclear ALARMISTS, no doubt…..Saddam Hussein is estimated to have caused the deaths of a million people, much more reliably, than Chernobyl.
In Cookieworld:
Chernobyl has been estimated to have caused the deaths of a million people.
Meanwhile, back where the rest of us live:
The report concludes that 134 staff and emergency workers suffered acute radiation syndrome and of those 28 died of the condition. Many of the survivors suffered skin conditions and radiation induced cataracts, and 19 have since died, but not usually of conditions associated with radiation exposure. Of the several hundred thousand liquidators, apart from indications of increased leukaemia risk, there is no other evidence of health effects. In the general public, the only effect with 'persuasive evidence' is a substantial fraction of the 6,000 cases of thyroid cancer in adolescents observed in the affected areas. By 2005, 15 cases had proved fatal.
...and still, Cook doggedly prostitutes away for the Administration. I used to have some admiration for Cook because, though delusional and naive, he at least seemed non-partisan about it; but he seems determined to piss it all away defending Eric Holder.
Chernobyl has been estimated to have caused the deaths of a million people.
Robert Cook. Please cite your source for the estimate you included in the above statement.
Chernobyl has been estimated to have caused the deaths of a million people
Hysterical.
I'd love to know who "estimated" this, shit ape.
If you look at some of the reports described on the Wikipedia page I linked above, you can see that different reports give wildly different numbers for estimated deaths. I picked the most recent, as being (presumably) the most up-to-date. One report gives estimated deaths of over 900K, but it seems to be an outlier.
But that's all besides the point. The point is Fast & Furious, and notice that that is the one thing that Freder/Cookie/et al. will. not. talk. about.
King Obama is full bore into eliminating Congressional consent called laws.
He operates by Federal Regulations. These are based of FAKED problems like CO2 as a air pollutant.
How about a sudden flood of Military grade weapons causing Mexican Border gangs to invade Arizona and Texas and kill Americans. Get a Federal Regulation under Terrorist laws just expanded and send the resistors to one of the many the new internment camps built to handle civil disorder.
Possession becomes 9/10s of the law once a Tsar enacts a Federal Regulation that requires a new Congressional law to stop the CFR...Obama Vetoes it.
Obama has learned from Chavez how to stop silly Congressional powers from interfering with crisis powers in the executive for life.
Paco,
I looked at Wiki, which IMHO leans left and green.
57 deaths in the short term.
an estimate of 4-5k of cum additional cancer deaths
plus of course getting blamed for ever disease and bad outcome within 5000 km
The Administration simply cannot explain Fast and Furious. On the one hand they'd have to explain to the American people (and the people of Mexico and Central America) that their belief in wrecking at least part of the constitution is so strong that they are willing to kill untold numbers of human beings.
On the other hand? We're so damned stupid that we let untold numbers of people die by sheer incompetence.
I'm not sure either of those lines is something on which to base a re-election campaign.
There's clearly a lot of CYA going on over F&F, but there may be a more benign explanation for this whole thing: Maybe the Justice Department can't explain the reason for the program because there isn't one.
When you get a big enough organization, stuff like this is just an emergent property of the organization. Somebody gets a half-assed idea, somebody else misinterprets the idea, somebody else authorizes implementation of the misinterpreted idea based on his own misinterpretation of what he thinks his boss wants, and voila! a giant clusterfuck ensues. We're dealing with stuff bubbling out of the unexplored lacunae between ATF, FBI, DEA, and god knows what sorry excuses pass for Homeland Security agencies.
I'm just glad that this only dealt with firearms and somebody didn't decide that tracking pathogens or highly enriched uranium across the border would be a really nifty experiment.
Bruce Hayden said...
"...why would the (primarily) Sinaloa Cartel really want our semi-automatic AR and AK variants, when they were already getting the full-auto versions probably more cheaply?"
There is no good reason for them to prefer American-sourced semi-auto guns. This brings up another point: why would they spend their own money to purchase such guns? I think if the investigation continues, we'll find out the answer: they didn't. We did, i.e. the Federal Government diverted "stimulus" funds to Mexican informants on the condition that the money be used to buy semi-auto guns from American gun dealers.
"Chernobyl has been estimated to have caused the deaths of a million people."
Reference, please. This is my field, and that number sounds highly inflated.
Just posted a couple minutes ago.
Cop, another person killed on Va. Tech campus
http://dagblog.com/health/how-many-died-chernobyl-radiation-9618
The column acknowledges there is dispute over the figures.
Chernobyl has been estimated to have caused the deaths of a million people.
Ummm.....no. The actual number is about 60. Shoot. Missed it, by that much.
The larger scandal is that this is not a larger scandal. Christie's waistline is a bigger scandal than Corzine's missing billion......Never underestimate the stupidity factor in human events. I'd give Holder the benefit of the doubt and ascribe this more to stupidity than to any corrupt or clever plot.
As far as Fast & Furious goes, I think TheRadicalModerate succinctly states the most likely explanation.
Rather than there being a sinister plot to do...something...this is a case of bureaucratic overreach, stupidity, and snafu.
The column acknowledges there is dispute over the figures.
Do you?
Rather than there being a sinister plot to do...something...this is a case of bureaucratic overreach, stupidity, and snafu.
So the leaders are incompetent. They need to go.
"...and still, Cook doggedly prostitutes away for the Administration."
Ummm...hardly.
"The column acknowledges there is dispute over the figures.
"Do you?"
Of course...I pointed it out.
Of course...I pointed it out.
Just checking.
Rather than there being a sinister plot to do...something...this is a case of bureaucratic overreach, stupidity, and snafu.
But, if that is true, then it would be an argument in favor of giving our federal government less, a lot less, power, and, esp. when it comes to the agencies that are heavily armed or control guns?
And, then, there is a question - why we have political leadership in these agencies in the first place? AG Holder received emails and memos on F&F, but claims to have ignored them. AAG Lanny Breuer not only received memos and emails, but also forwarded them to others, while also claiming that he knew nothing. If they aren't there to control the bureaucracy under them, and, esp. since that bureaucracy is heavily armed and funded, and controls the arming of the rest of us, then what are they there for?
That is why some above have suggested that the gun-banning rationale is maybe the best one for this Administration, esp. since they want us to give them even more power.
The NCRP estimated that the excess number of cancer deaths from the radioactive fallot during the 70 years after the accident at 265 (Health Effects of Low-Level Radiation, Sohei Kondo, Kinki University Press, Osaka, Japan). This is in addition to the acute deaths from the accident. These are very difficult estimates and open to wide ranging debate, but 1,000,000 deaths is nonsense on stilts.
Robert Cook said...
The notion that Obama's administration flooded Mexico with weapons in order that the expected flood of killings of Mexicans by U.S. weapons would provide cause for broad and draconian gun control legislation in America is the big, unproven "IF" here.
You're in full denial here, pardner. I think you'd better open your eyes and read this and then decide if you want to keep calling this traitorous plot "unproven".
Bruce @1:57:
But, if that is true, then it would be an argument in favor of giving our federal government less, a lot less, power, and, esp. when it comes to the agencies that are heavily armed or control guns?
I don't have a problem with the government controlling the flow of weapons into and out of the country. That seems to fall nicely into providing for the common defense. But even the least competent systems analyst could design an organization that would be hundreds of times less likely to screw up than the one we wound up with.
NB: A huge chunk of the problem in this case is that the organizational dynamics were completely disrupted by the creation of DHS. When you've got 3 cabinet-level agencies (DHS, DNI, and DOJ) all fighting over turf, something like F&F is just about the smallest snafu that you should reasonably expect.
Maybe we ought to require all Congressmen and ES-III's and above to take a survey course on complexity theory. They don't need to know the math--hell, I don't know the math; it's somewhere between nasty and nonexistent--but at least they ought to understand what causes both the good and the bad stuff to emerge.
That is why some above have suggested that the gun-banning rationale is maybe the best one for this Administration, esp. since they want us to give them even more power.
Either this was policy-driven or it wasn't. If it was policy-driven, then the architect(s) of the policy need to be fired or imprisoned. If there wasn't a policy, then some managers, possibly including the Attorney General, need to be fired for incompetence.
Here is the part Holder's opening statement today that concerned the southwest border and gunwalking. Note the part in bold.
n recent years, the department has devoted specific resources to this fight and specifically, to addressing the unacceptable rate of illegal firearms trafficking from the United States to Mexico. Unfortunately, in the pursuit of that laudable goal, unacceptable tactics were adopted as part of Operation Fast and Furious. As I have repeatedly stated, allowing guns to walk, whether in this administration or the prior one, is wholly unacceptable. The use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable. It must never happen again. Soon after learning about the allegations raised by agents involved in Fast and Furious I took action designed to ensure accountability. In February I asked the department’s acting Inspector General to investigate the matter. And in early March I ordered that a directive be sent to law enforcement agents and prosecutors prohibiting such tactics.
On May 3rd of this year, Issa and Holder had the following exchange.
Issa: “When did you first know about the program…called ‘Fast and Furious?”
Holder: “I’m not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks”
Anyone notice anything amiss here?
I went home for lunch and listened to Limbaugh on radio discuss a callers accusations about the the lost stealth drone.
He went on and on, and Rush joined in, about the Government lying about a stealth drone surveilling a 32 year long enemy country like Iran.
That is so stupid. The war with an enemy country like Iran has to be done with deception. Is the government supposed to tell our enemies the truth about its secrets?
Reagan was also jumped for doing Iran related moves "secretly".
Which brings me back to Fast and Furious. It is a secretive action by the Government against a Country... but the country is the USA. That should not be done secretly
The Obama men are repeating over and over that it is just "what Bush Administration did."
That is a pure lie on its face. They cannot stand truth here.
No body that can think their way out of a wet paper bag when faced with the repeated clear evidence that the Obama White House is at war with our country (and Israel too) can still pretend that Obama is stupid.
Tyrone, assuming the allegations in the report you linked to are true, does this confirm this was a conspiracy whose genesis and planning reached to the top of the Obama administraion? Or might it not simply be "bureaucratic overreach, stupidity and snafu?"
Look, I think Obama is a war criminal and mass murderer, and his administration is essentially a continuation of that which preceded his...I think the bill passed in the Senate last week is a terrifying and overt manifestation of the police state domestically...(let's hope the House refuses to pass it or that Obama vetoes it...even if only for self-serving reasons).
These are not people who should be at the head of government...they should be in prison.
However, I find it hard to believe the Obama administration erected this plot--to pour weapons into Mexico, hopefully resulting in mass shootings and murders--simply to have an excuse to impose drastic gun control.
What makes anyone think Obama cares enough about gun control to put such a scheme into play?
Is it because he is a leftist (sic) and/or communist (sic) and/or socialist(sic)?
Is it because he is a leftist (sic) and/or communist (sic) and/or socialist(sic)?
He owned a single-family home in Chicago. How can he be a communist?
Scott M, nice catch on the dates. Would make a very effective commercial, should Obama decide not to throw Holder under the bus.
TheRadicalModerate said...
"Either this was policy-driven or it wasn't. If it was policy-driven, then the architect(s) of the policy need to be fired or imprisoned. If there wasn't a policy, then some managers, possibly including the Attorney General, need to be fired for incompetence."
If there wasn't a policy, the agents need to be prosecuted for illegal arms exports, criminal conspiracy, and even accessory to murder. They have not been. Of course, in a criminal prosecution the agents' trial defense and discovery would naturally aim to show how they were implementing a management-ordered policy.
An even bigger scandal would be if guns were sold to J. He wasn't @ Virginia Tech today was he?
What difference does motive make? Fast and Furious is an example of monumental stupidity, irresponsibility and probable criminality on the part of the Obama DOJ & Co.
It is appalling that the leftist whingers infesting this thread are even attempting to mount a defense.
If there wasn't a policy, the agents need to be prosecuted ....
Policy, schmolicy. The AG has no power to grant immunity from prosecution by policy directive.
Assuming violations of federal criminal law, special prosecutors must be appointed.
It is clear that Holder is lying and is not the human shield for the Urkle administration. Furthermore, it is seeming abundantly clear that the leftard policy of trying to illicit some sort of gun policy reaction as a function of letting these weapons into the hands of the Mexican cartel underworld appears to be a clear undermining by Urkle and his stooge, Holder of the 2nd amendment. If that is the case, then they have directly sought to undermine The Bill of Rights and The Constitution as whole. This is clearly an impeachable offense and in fact should be a traitorous offense under high crimes and misdemeanors. The lies are abundant, Holder unfortunately was not under oath and I wonder why? Issa asked for it and didn't get it. Why? The truth is going float to the top on this one and a lot of it has already.
BBC News
Thursday, 26 March 2009
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says the US must take part of the blame for drug-related violence in Mexico.
Speaking as she arrived in Mexico, she said America's appetite for drugs and its inability to stop arms crossing the border were helping fuel the violence.
Her two-day visit comes a day after the Obama administration announced new measures to boost border security.
Some 8,000 people have died in drug-related violence in Mexico over the past two years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7963292.stm
I'd like to see Congress subpoena documents from the State Department.
Holder: Soon after learning about the allegations raised by agents involved in Fast and Furious I took action designed to ensure accountability. In February I asked the department’s acting Inspector General to investigate the matter.
Keep in mind that Holder, et al. have utilized the IG's investigation as an excuse not to comply with Congressional subpoenas and other requests for information. IGs are supposed to be independent. However, in this case, she appears to be far from independent - having worked for Holder when he was DC USA under Clinton, and where they co-signed a number of court papers.
Now, it is official, the "I" word is in play: Sensenbrenner floats impeachment of Obama admin. officials as ‘Fast and Furious’ response.
Now, I know that a lot of people in Wisconsin are a bit wacko, as evidenced by this blog and many of its commenters. But, Rep. Sensenbrenner appears to me to be quite sensible - going so far here to say that this would only be a last resort if the DoJ continues to stonewall. Met with him this spring on patent reform, and was very favorably impressed - and he turned out to be one of the only members of Congress not to sell out for the Orwellian named "America (Dis)Invents Act" (it is looking right now that the tab for passing that legislation is nearing a billion dollars - far higher than the $100 million we were estimating when it passed).
I should add that most of the noise on the Republican side has been back benchers up to this point, with the committee chairs and ranking members working to look judicious. But Rep. Sensenbrenner is a former House Judiciary Committee Chair, and has been involved in impeachments before.
On the other hand, he does come from Wisconsin.
I think there are only two ways this can go:
1. A "Smoking Gun" memo, or testimony from someone inside reveals it to be an attempt to "prove" that more gun control laws are needed. (I think this is what was going on.) If this happens, there will be a major scandal that the press will be forced to report.
2. The administration will claim that the plan was merely to trace the flow of the guns and incriminate the bad guys so they could be taken down. If no "smoking gun" is found the AG and the President will stick with this story and the mainstream press will provide cover. A few people will be fired for having ineptly handled a well intentioned plan. I think this is more likely.
Remember, we live in a country wherein a President committed perjury and then was stripped of his law license, and yet the leaders of the opposition party (here I am thinking of Senator McCain) continue to treat him with respect. The press does not want to touch this scandal, and the "reasonable" Republican leaders will be scared to take on Holder and the President. It is a sad state of affairs.
Of course, the whole thing is a trivial scandal compared to a government spending one million million dollars more than the funds available, while the press acts as though this is a perfectly reasonable way to run a country.
However, I find it hard to believe the Obama administration erected this plot--to pour weapons into Mexico, hopefully resulting in mass shootings and murders--simply to have an excuse to impose drastic gun control.
They are either so incompetent they should be fired AND imprisoned for pretty directly breaking federal law --- or they did it for political reasons (which emails definitely indicate) and they should be fired and imprisoned for pretty directly breaking federal law.
When gun sellers are asking for written evidence (meaning that the word of the agents wasn't enough) that what they are being asked to do is legal...then it probably isn't legal.
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