"This Christmas season, 78% of American adults identify with some form of Christian religion. Less than 2% are Jewish, less than 1% are Muslim, and 15% do not have a religious identity. This means that 95% of all Americans who have a religious identity are Christians."
A new Gallup poll.
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This provides some nice evidence that all the Christians in America complaining about how hard it is to be persecuted and oppressed by the evil atheists are nothing but sad deluded whiners.
Speaking of sad and deluded whiners...
But The Jews control Wall Street and Wall Street controls America Mwah Ha Ha Ha Ha.
I thought "Wicca perp" was the dominant form of religion in this country.
Andy R. said...
This provides some nice evidence that all the Christians in America complaining about how hard it is to be persecuted and oppressed by the evil atheists are nothing but sad deluded whiners.
Tell that to the people bitching about just 1%.
wwhs. what would hitch say?
Andy R: This provides some nice evidence that all the Christians in America complaining about how hard it is to be persecuted and oppressed by the evil atheists are nothing but sad deluded whiners.
This poll is "evidence"?
Even assuming that it is evidence of something, are you seriously claiming that a militant, say, 10% in a litigious society can't interfere with the free exercise of religion by the majority?
That's quite a stretch.
"This means that 95% of all Americans who have a religious identity are Christians."
Just keep it quiet - a few people hate that fact, and their feelings are paramount. It says so in the Constitution somewhere.
The demographics sometimes show the folly of equal time and recognition...by catering to small factions, you shortchange the actual audience or contributors.
Ceremonies where they allocate 5 minutes each at the start to some Jew, Christian, and Muslim to do their blathering and prayers...give Jews and Muslims undue time, less time that the Christian demographics should call for, and zero time for the agnostic or atheist members of the audience.
The current rote speech of thanking the "hero men and women" on patrol fighting Taliban in the mountains conveniently overlooks the fact there aren't any women sent deliberately out to engage the enemy. The "equal contribution" of them in Vietnam was 7 dead women, 58,000 men dead..and the stats in the last 10 years of war have hardly tippped the sacrifice on more "gender neutral grounds".
It's offensive that Gallup would release these poll results during a particularly stressful time for non-believers, battered as they are by constant reminders of their season of exclusion.
So 95% of are jails are filled with Christians? Even Hell has to be considered a Christian community.....narrow is the gate and few they that enter in thereat....
Andy R.,
The quantity of a group in the population has surprisingly little effect dictating who gets persecuted by those in power.
For example, the Shia in prewar Iraq, or all religions in any communist country.
In fact, leftist regimes have a long history of the few persecuting the many.
Then, of course, there is the evil 1% with their boot on the necks of the 99%.
It's really quite common, and always has been.
Still a war on Christmas, despite the poll findings.
So 95% of are jails are filled with Christians?
I take it your educational background did not involve too much math.
Demographics also point to the tension in a land that can arise when a small minority group commands disproportionate power and influence.
If 0.1% of the people in 1950s Paraguay or 1790 France control 95% of the wealth and influence - a revolution is pending. Despite the screams about jealousy, envy, and the "merit" of smarter and more nimble Paraguayan military officers and French aristocrats in "out-competing others" to get all the loot.
Malaysia woke up in the 60s to find a 3% Chinese minority had gained control of most university spots, the banking system, key industries, the professions. Disproportinate political power...Like Thailand and Vietnam and Indonesia - the answer was laws backed with guns to block the Chinese from maintaining their disproportionate share.
What to do when an aristocracy or other minority grabs too much, causes real internal friction and harm to the personal interests of the majority - is an age-old issue societies must deal with. Asia, Europe, Latin America, even now here in America...
Farmers vs. the East Coast merchantilists.
Plantation Owners calling the shots in the Deep South.
Workers vs. the Robber Barons.
Middle America vs. the Jewish owners of media and much of high finance.
The Top 1% vs. the 99%.
It always goes on. Here and overseas. And the top dogs always scream how hateful and ignorant it would be to change things, ignore that the beauty of Versailles is worth a few million destitute peasants.
AndrR. Aren't you a member of Occupy Atlanta, whining about the one percent? There is some evidence for you.
garage was publicly "educated". cut the cow some slack, it's christmas.
GM:Even Hell has to be considered a Christian community...
That's a very charitable claim that the 95% include those in prison in a straight distribution.
Others might say that the "none/atheist/agnostic" represent the "other" one-percenters---the incarcerated.
I'm thinking the gen pop has a few godless.
Yea, make that 78% of jails are filled with Christians.
So 95% of are jails are filled with Christians?
I wonder what the other 5% of jails are filled with.
I'm an atheist, meaning I do not have a theistic view of life and the universe. But, I have a Christian "religious identity" in that I was raised in a Christian society and my intellectual framework is almost entirely rooted in Christianity.
I see the notion of Christians "persecuted" in this country as a delusion promoted by scammers of various calibers, from tiny groups threatening boycotts over ads, to Presidential campaigns, to perhaps whole TV networks. Religious scammers are as old as religion.
I am very grateful to live in a Christian society, but I thank god for Spinoza, Voltaire, and Jefferson.
C'ford- Jews get equal time because they own most of it.
Muslims get their fair share because if you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world, according to the government.
I see the notion of Christians "persecuted" in this country as a delusion promoted by scammers of various calibers, from tiny groups threatening boycotts over ads, to Presidential campaigns, to perhaps whole TV networks. Religious scammers are as old as religion.
Do you deny that there is a movement by a vocal minority of militant atheists and histrionic aggrieved representatives of "some" other religious groups to remove the Christ from Christmas?
The removal of anything even remotely smacking of Christianity from traditional holidays. Christmas trees? References to Christianity at Easter time? Even removal of secular things like Rudolph the freaking red nosed reindeer.
The constant drumbeat to remove references to God in the public arena and even on your own private property? Take out In God We Trust. Remove the Ten Commandments. Eliminate statuary on private property that could offend some pearl clutching offended atheist?
There is a concerted and directed effort to suppress Christianity, while at the same time at the altar of multi-cultural corrected to elevate OTHER religions.
Deny it.
It may not be persecution, but it is institutional overbearing stupidity.
What DO you call a situation where 95% are told they can't use a certain word like "Christmas" because it identifies their religion and even if it was 100% we just can't have that. There are many, maybe even a majority of, schools now that don't allow the word to be used when identifying the holiday. The government is telling a majority of the people that they can not use a word of their religion in their own public space, and that they must play some kind of North Korean-style game with the truth. It's institutional mental illness.
Take out In God We Trust. Remove the Ten Commandments.
It's called the separation of church and state. Maybe you've heard of it.
"There is a concerted and directed effort to suppress Christianity, while at the same time at the altar of multi-cultural corrected to elevate OTHER religions."
I deny it. We're a big country, room for lot's of nuts of all persuasions. No reason atheists can't be scammers, they're just the irreligious variety. Don't be taken in by the sound and fury.
Would love to continue, but I have to depart for atheistic Christmas Eve festivities.
Merry Christmas.
AndyR.
It's called the separation of church and state. Maybe you've heard of it.
I have, but the idea is that there will be no state sponsored religion. Which there isnt. And wont be.
You shallow dove in school i see.
Twenty-seven comments and this thread is already most of the way to Dumbville.
It's called the separation of church and state. Maybe you've heard of it.
No such thing exists. It is a made up idea and a distortion of the First Ammendment
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
There is nothing in there about separation of.
No law respecting an establishment of....check.
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...check.
Perhaps some remedial reading classes?
That fact alone drives the Lefties nuts.
Problem is, even if they could stifle the Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Buddhists, and Taoists, they're still scared purple of the Moslems.
Andy R. said...
This provides some nice evidence that all the Christians in America complaining about how hard it is to be persecuted and oppressed by the evil atheists are nothing but sad deluded whiners.
Since the Lefties control the courts, there is real persecution (try ignoring a court order to take down a Nativity), but all it proves is that the saddest and most deluded whiner is Hatman because he has attempted to make yet another lame Commie point.
Maguro said...
I thought "Wicca perp" was the dominant form of religion in this country.
They've been exiled.
"This provides some nice evidence that all the Christians in America complaining about how hard it is to be persecuted and oppressed by the evil atheists are nothing but sad deluded whiners."
And this provides further evidence that douchenozzles wearing crooked hats don't know shit from shinola. There isn't anything in the article linked that would lead one to believe your idiotic rant.
Heck most atheists I know show more respect than that.
Merry f'ing Christmas to you too 'AndyR'.
"God bless us all, everyone."
--Tiny Tim
Cedarford,
Malaysia woke up in the 60s to find a 3% Chinese minority had gained control of most university spots, the banking system, key industries, the professions. Disproportinate political power...Like Thailand and Vietnam and Indonesia - the answer was laws backed with guns to block the Chinese from maintaining their disproportionate share.
I should like to see your source for the 3%. Wikipedia on the Malaysian Chinese has this:
An early census of ethnic groups in the British Malay states, conducted by the British in 1835, showed that ethnic Chinese constituted 8 percent of the population and were mainly found in the Straits Settlements, while the Malays and Indians made up 88 percent and 4 percent of the population respectively. Malaya's population quickly increased during the 19th and 20th centuries, although the majority of Chinese immigrants were males rather than females. By 1921, Malaya's population had swelled to nearly three million, and the Chinese constituted 30 percent of Malaya's population while the Malays constituted 54.7% of Malaya's population, whose growth was fueled by immigrants from neighboring Indonesia (the Indians made up most of the remainder). While the Chinese population was largely transient, and many coolies returned to China on a frequent basis, 29 percent of the Chinese population were local born, most of whom were the offspring of first-generation Chinese immigrants. The British government began to impose restrictions on migration during the 1930s, but the difference between the number of Chinese and Malays continued to close up even after World War II. The 1947 census indicated that the Malays constituted 49.5% of the population, compared to the Chinese at 38.4%, out of a total population of 4.9 million.
Can you explain how a nearly 40% Chinese Malaysian population in 1947 became a 3% one (according to you) "in the 60s"? I mean, I can think of one or two, but they aren't really consistent with the bumiputera having just woken up to Chinese dominance "in the 60s." Ethnic cleansing takes time.
Read the Wiki article (here) for more detail. And do be advised that, in global terms, you and I and everyone here has a "disproportionate share." Deal with it.
wv: tompher. A sort of gopher, only it doubts everything you tell it.
What I find significant is how much we've been told by Muslim advocacy groups over the last several years that they have *this* many millions of believers in America, about twice as many as there are Jews. If there are, then well and fine. But it sounds like someone's feeding us inflated numbers as a form of propaganda.
Merry Christmas to all. We are packing up for church where my son will serve as an Acolyte at the church and service he represented the baby Jesus all those years ago. Christ is born.
bagoh20,
It may not be persecution, but it is institutional overbearing stupidity.
Well, but of course. There's no hard bigotry; there's just "well, we can't let you do that." When occasional public-school instrumental ensembles have had to forgo playing completely words-free works because, had there been words (which there weren't), they would've been "Ave Maria," someone's gone nuts, and I don't think it's the band director.
wv: expoidem. Dang, every wv looks like a pharmaceutical these days. This one must be for gas.
It's called the separation of church and state
There is no such thing in the constitution. Thomas Jefferson, who else, coined it to attack the churchmen that called him out for his hypocrisy about slavery. He did not fight slavery but had a slave as mistress
Michael,
All best to you and yours for Christmas. I feel strange not playing a midnight Mass tonight; I played one most of the last two decades, but we're in a relatively new place, and for the first time we're alone on Christmas Eve.
Malaysia woke up in the 60s to find a 3% Chinese minority had gained control of most university spots, the banking system, key industries, the professions
Malasian demographics:
Malay 50.4%, Chinese 23.7%, indigenous 11%, Indian 7.1%, others 7.8%
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/my.html
So 95% of are jails are filled with Christians?
No 95% the jails are filled with an important Democrat constituency group.
The odd thing is that the 1st amendment was meant to keep the Church from becoming an instrument of state policy, not the other way 'round. "Establish" had a specific meaning regarding religion in the 18th century English speaking world, where the regent was head of both state and church. American Christianity has never had anything like it.
It's called the separation of church and state. Maybe you've heard of it.
This phrase, "separation of church and state" you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I wonder how Romney would have responded to the religious identification question?
Asking people about their religious identification is bound to give you loopy results. I suspect that there are a large number of self-described Christians who believe that Jesus died for their sins, but who reject various miracles surrounding the birth, life, and death of Christ.
Even assuming that it is evidence of something, are you seriously claiming that a militant, say, 10% in a litigious society can't interfere with the free exercise of religion by the majority?
Perhaps they could, if the 10% in question existed. They don't.
Which is why the "interference with free exercise of religion" doesn't exist.
Disproportinate political power...Like Thailand and Vietnam and Indonesia - the answer was laws backed with guns to block the Chinese from maintaining their disproportionate share.
Which is why Malays are still less productive than the Chinese. The Chinese are punished with higher taxes and various punitive laws, but their superior culture means they still create most of the wealth in Malaysia.
The Malays just get fat off the work of the Chinese, then whine about it. You'd do well as a Malay, Cedarford.
It is true that minority groups can become dominant in a society and persecute the majority. But that isn't how things usually go and the burden of proof is upon those who claim such persecution is happening. And in the case of those who claim that Christians are oppressed in the US, that proof hasn't been provided, because that persecution doesn't exist outside the minds of the perpetually-aggrieved. I could elaborate on this, but the point is a simple one and I need to get ready to church. Merry Christmas!
Yet Christians keep moaning about how they're oh-so-persecuted when they hold all the levers of power.
somefeller - they cry persecution when they aren't allowed to issue a Christan prayer over the public school PA system.
Do you deny that there is a movement by a vocal minority of militant atheists and histrionic aggrieved representatives of "some" other religious groups to remove the Christ from Christmas?
That's non-responsive. Charlie was dismissing the notion that Christians are "persecuted". Is there a movement by a vocal minority of yadda yadda yadda? Sure, there's a movement by a vocal minority to do anything you'd care to think of. But does the movement in question have any impact whatsoever on the ability of Christians to practice their religion? Answer: no.
Heck, for every atheist in America there are six Christians who think prayer should be mandatory in all public schools and another six willing to settle for a mandatory "moment of silence".
In the age of journolister's coordinated attacks, being the Front Runner is an awful place.
Professor, why does it feel like you're trolling for hits? I mean I saw the headline and assumed Andy and Garage would spout the usual "yes but" liberal lines and Cedarford would mention "the Joooos".
This post was not in good faith.
I respect Christianity and most Christians, but I am a proud member of that fifteen percent. Having said that, Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
I don't believe that Christians are persecuted in the US, nor do I believe that atheists are being oppressed because the city of Santa Monica permits some nativity scenes.
Basically, we all have it pretty good here, whether one subscribes to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism or (dare I say it) Wicca-perpism. Or to nothing at all.
Most of the controversies are ginned up by a few drama queens on each side and most people don't even notice them.
A Happy Christmas/Hannukah/Kwanzaa/Festivus/Winter Solstice to all. And if god-bothering isn't your bag, that's fine too - have a happy 3 day werkend.
Weekend, that is.
Maybe they should give equal time to Muslim when they plan out Nativity Scenes. Just like they have a Festivus Pole and a Flying Spaghetti Monster display, they should have a Muslim nativity as well. They could show Mohammed lurking around a corner furtively motioning to the little girl Aisha as a sound recording in the background goes "Pssst, hey little girl do you want to see something big?"
Alex wrote:
Yet Christians keep moaning about how they're oh-so-persecuted when they hold all the levers of power.
And followed, apparently without irony, with:
somefeller - they cry persecution when they aren't allowed to issue a Christan prayer over the public school PA system.
"trolling for hits" aside :D
It would be useful to know the % of Christians who attend church on a regular basis. Although whether one goes to church really doesn't determine how much of a Christian said person is, rather it's the way one lives their life, eh.
Religion being so much nonsense ie the Bible can be interpreted every which way to Sunday :-P depending on what one's social/political/religious agenda is.
So it shall be written, so it shall be done!
carry on
UGH.
Unfortunately I read Andy's comment-
the first comment on the thread; as I say, it sets the tone.
Despite Andy, and his persistent vile-
I wish Althouse, and all that encompassed her blog..
From her husband, to her plants, to her owls,..
to her children, her colleagues..
To her readers...
Even Andy-
MERRY CHRISTMAS
So 95% of are jails are filled with Christians?
I doubt prison inmates were included in the polling sample. No easy access to phones or Internet.
It does not require great art, or magnificently trained eloquence, to prove that Christians should tolerate each other. I, however, am going further: I say that we should regard all men as our brothers. What? The Turk my brother? The Chinaman my brother? The Jew? The Siam? Yes, without doubt; are we not all children of the same father and creatures of the same God?And one does not need tp complain about this:)
they cry persecution when they aren't allowed to issue a Christan prayer over the public school PA system.
There he goes again, mocking Christians.
What other religions, nationalities, or ethnicities do you mock? Only the peaceful, nonviolent ones?
It does not require great art, or magnificently trained eloquence, to prove that Christians should tolerate each other. I, however, am going further:
For a minute, I thought you were going to say that white males should be treated equally by our government. Oh, well.
MrCharlie2, I don't know about Voltaire but Spinoza and Jefferson weren't atheists.
Revenant,
Heck, for every atheist in America there are six Christians who think prayer should be mandatory in all public schools and another six willing to settle for a mandatory "moment of silence".
I haven't yet met anyone who thinks prayer should be "mandatory in all public schools," though I'll take your word for it arguendo.
But what, in the name of sanity, is wrong with a moment of silence? You can think about whatever you like in a moment of silence.
I remember George Will writing about one of the early ACLU suits against moments of silence: the ACLU case seemed to be that the defendant had to prove that "nowhere among the purposes of the law was providing an opportunity for prayer." [From memory; might not be word-perfect.] To which Will basically said: the government ought not to have jurisdiction over what might or might not be going on in your head.
FWIW, I emerged from four years of high school with a moment of silence as blissfully agnostic as I was when I went in. Christianity came later.
wv: begropy. Stop telling me to do what I intended to do anyway, Intertubes!
DADvocate, roesch/voltaire is quoting Voltaire.
wv: antso. Say it antso!
"I say that we should regard all men as our brothers."
Agreed!
So who's going to organize the gift swap?
Imagine a hat big enough to hold 7 billion bits of folded over paper with just one name on it.
AND, as is always the case..
If you pick your own name out of the hat, you have to throw it back in and start over...
OR, swap with the brother right next to you.
"... This provides some nice evidence that all the Christians in America complaining about how hard it is to be persecuted and oppressed by the evil atheists are nothing but sad deluded whiners..."
Merry Christmas Andy. God Bless you and yours.
"... It would be useful to know the % of Christians who attend church on a regular basis..."
Attending mass isn't a requirement of being a Christian. Then again your being ignorant of that fact isn't a surprise.
Flash, the vast majority of Ancient Greeks believed in Polytheism.
roesch/voltaire is quoting Voltaire.
That explains the sexist language. Old white man.
Hoosier Daddy, speaking of ignorance, didn't say church attendance was a requirement of Christianity, only asked a question.
And actually was putting forth the proposition that many who don't attend church are more loyal to religion than those who do.
As reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, you have a merry Christmas!
No, there's no persecution of Christians here in the US. But the truth is that despite their predominance in society, Christians are often quite limited when it comes to publicaccommodation for their beliefs. Moreso, there is considerable pressure from state and local governments, assisted by a few vocal atheists, to press further limitations on them.
Persecuation? No. Vast amounts of irritation by a few atheists who have too much time on their hands? Yes.
evangelicals and mormons are to Christianity as like Mitt Romneyoid is to Jefferson.
Little or no relation.
Why all the sharp edges?
I value anyone filing down.
Back when Time Magazine was published by Clair Booth Luce, a practicing Catholic, Time ran a cover story on America's three major religions: The Jews, the Protestants and the Christians.
"MrCharlie2, I don't know about Voltaire but Spinoza and Jefferson weren't atheists."
I intended them as examples of the stream of thought that allowed the old Christian culture to become modern, not as examples of atheists.
Think about this: something happened between 1620 and 1800 that allowed Christians to invent the new idea that slavery was wrong. I can't think of examples of slavery being even questioned before that time, it was just a fact.
On the subject of the militant atheists: think what it's like to know that some of your neighbors think that not paying lip service to a religion means that you are evil. That is what atheists in small towns in some parts of the US must live with.
"Deny it."
That anthropological reality naturally produces a defensive reaction. I think this is where the militant/neurotic atheists come from.
This country would be a lot better off if we stopped bickering about dumb stuff. I know, I know, 50+ % of the population can do nothing but bicker/bitch/moan. But, thanks to Spinoza/Voltaire/Jefferson we have a substantial minority who have developed beyond that.
And, before the whiners say it, that minority is not "the atheists". It's the thinking people of all persuasions. Which side do you want to be on?
Non Christians.. or as they are known here badfaithers ;)
(the Uncredentialed, Crypto Jew)
Think about this: something happened between 1620 and 1800 that allowed Christians to invent the new idea that slavery was wrong. I can't think of examples of slavery being even questioned before that time, it was just a fact
PURITANS, happened...Quakers and Puritans....Wilberforce was a big-time CHRISTIAN. When we are ALL Yhwh's Equal...when we ALL can study the Gospel, one comes to the "slave" in a different light.
No such thing exists. It is a made up idea and a distortion of the First Ammendment.
It is a phrase that has been used repeatedly by the Supreme Court, although, as you note, it doesn't appear in the Constitution.
If the importance of something being used by the Supreme Court escapes you, I would recommend Marbury v Madison to get you up to speed.
"Even Hell has to be considered a Christian community"
Very good, very insightful, Hell IS a Christian community.
However, the narrow gate goes to the other direction. Not that it matters. Heaven and Hell are both here on earth, no "later" about either.
hey it's Christmas! It's supposed to be the merriest time of the year..oh, wait, that's a different holoday...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJ8ZCs4jY
Merry Christmas, and don't let the Mayan doomsday prophecy get you!
"78% of American adults identify with some form of Christian religion"
Meaningless statistic/poll. Nearly 100% of American adults likely will identify as mature and knowledgeable persons, but such is not the case.
No lady or gentleman speaks on their own behalf. God alone can say that this person is a Christian, that a Moslem, etc. How easy is it for this person or that to be deluded, selfish, fawning, craven, calculating? Who among us is honest, thoroughly honest, in perceiving much less assessing one's own much less others' radically conditioned existence? Since when did partial awareness produce plenary exposition or render perfect justice? Anyone want to claim their consciousness, or even intent(!), is impartial, thoroughgoing, exhaustive and conclusive regarding all dimensions of reality?
This statistic/poll is a non sequitur.
Here's to the 15%! But not just to the 15%. Here's to the 2.5%(*). I belong to the "don't waste my time" religion.
(*) No response given .......... 2.5%
Penny wrote "Imagine a hat big enough to hold 7 billion bits of folded over paper with just one name on it."
They Might Be Giants wrote a song about it.
Ana Ng.
p.s. Thanks Rev.
I wonder how Romney would have responded to the religious identification question?
Most likely "Christian". Most Mormon churches I have seen, and I see a lot living and traveling out west, now have "Church of Jesus Christ" in much larger lettering than "of the Latter Day Saints". But, you mostly don't need that to recognize Mormon churches - they mostly have a very distinctive style, and are apparently built on common designs.
And, I have never heard as many Christmas carols, by a long shot, as when I lived in Salt Lake City.
Part of Mormonism has a feel of traditional mainline Protestantism, for good historical reasons. Maybe Methodist, because of the top-down structure and having Bishops.
I think that the problem is mostly the other way around - that many "Christians" don't think of Mormons as "Christian", led by, I believe, the Roman Catholic Church. But, at this time of year, the distinction is moot, because the major theological difference is not at the beginning of his life, but rather, what happened to Jesus after his Crucifixion.
I think that this is all evidence that we are a lot better at religious tolerance than most of the rest of the world - at a time when Christianity is especially under assault throughout much of the rest of the world, and, esp. Muslim world. Some of the longest surviving Christian communities, dating from not long after the death of Christ, are under serious attack right now. And, I would suggest that this tolerance is a good part of why we seem to support the very regimes that seem determined to wipe out these Christian communities. Think, for example, of the Administration's support for the Islamists in Egypt who are trying to kill or convert their Coptic community.
"You'd do well as a Malay, Cedarford."
Ohhhh, that had to leave a mark!
To someone even remotely open-minded, I'd recommend Thomas Sowell's wonderful trilogy; but I doubt c4 would let himself get through it. I just find it fascinating that our resident anti-semite is so broadminded that he despises the overseas Chinese in the same way.
"Christians are often quite limited when it comes to public accommodation for their beliefs."
I'm curious what you mean...what sort of "public accommodation" to Christian beliefs do you think are lacking in America?
"PURITANS, happened...Quakers and Puritans....Wilberforce was a big-time CHRISTIAN. When we are ALL Yhwh's Equal...when we ALL can study the Gospel, one comes to the "slave" in a different light."
That's just a different angle on exactly what I was saying. You see the enlightenment as something that happened within the non-conforming semi-Calvinism sects.
We could split hairs for years. I say, perhaps not literally, if no Spinoza, then no Wilberforce. You might say, very literally, if no Calvin, then no Spinoza. We're both right, and they're part of a thread that led to our modern, liberal Christian culture. Let's enjoy it.
Merry Christmas.
George Barna did a further study a while back that pegged the "Christian' population at about 80%, but then divided that group 80/20 between "casual Christians" (the default cultural position for folks not intentionally something else) and "captive Christians" whose worldview is actually built around that theology being true and relevant. So about 2/3 of Americans are only nominally Christian, with another 16% serious about it. I blame Constantine (or Theodosius). The early (and persecuted) church didn't have any "Christmas and Easter" believers warming pews.
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