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७७ टिप्पण्या:
I dislike that he's referred to as a "polygamist". Not that it isn't true, but I think "child molester" should take precedence.
Life plus 25 years.
Maybe he should invoke Sharia.
Every time I tried the spiritual marriage schtick I got slapped
Plus 20 years. I misheard the TV news. Not that five years one way or the other matters after you are dead.
Maybe he can find Allah in prison. Islam is rather tollerant of this sort of thing.
Ha! Now he'll be somebody's bitch wife.
Another cult bites the dust.
How will the followers adjust now?
A cult is a group following the teachings of a False Prophet.
Does that make Obama's believers in Totus oracles a cult?
The jury convicted him because he was on tape consumating his spiritual marriage to a 12 year old.
Apparently there was no tape when a 54 year old Mohammed consumated his marriage to 9 year old Aisha.
Apparently there was no tape when a 54 year old Mohammed consumated his marriage to 9 year old Aisha.
The hell you say. Buddha has that one on blu-ray.
ScottM, just possessing such a blu-ray, even for research, can cost you enlightenment.
The unlucky women "wanted it."
And, I'll bet they'll as for conjugal visits. Because women do.
Oh. And, while in jail Jeffs can troll for followers. Since 1978 the Mormons ruled that they no longer hated blacks.
Is religion crazy? Aren't all the others? Poor Jeffs was born into his mishigas. And, his parents trained him.
Putting him in jail is going to stop the tides from coming in. And, going out? I wouldn't give this man's myths that much power.
And, I think when kids come along, and can't identify a father ... Tell them Jeffs sent 'em.
Back, not even a hundred years ago, teenagers became active. And, there were early marriages.
Wasn't unusual to see a 15 year old with both a bump, midsection. And, a hubby.
You really think people waited?
Once you could "postpone" a birth outcome ... we upped the age of entitlement.
We also upped the age when a teenager could legally drink.
Fools pass laws against nature.
Now that we've run out of other people's money ... some of the laws that can get you such a jail sentence, that is not cheap to taxpayers ... should be rethought.
Maybe, instead, when a woman is asked "do you want to marry this man?, she says "maybe. But not for the long term."
ScottM, just possessing such a blu-ray, even for research, can cost you enlightenment.
When I say he "has" it, I mean he's got it memorized. He watched it at a kegger over at Kali's.
Kali's into kiddie porn?
Another cult bites the dust.
How will the followers adjust now?
Probably the same way that Jimmy Swaggart's and Ted Haggard's and myriads of other fallen evangelical minter's congregants have.
Good.
Carol--sexually active teens go way beyond 100 years in this country. In the Colonial era, over half the first children were born less than 9 months after marriage--and mostly to teen aged moms.
You know, Jeffs never gave anybody AIDS. How many lovers can brag about that?
Too many lovers gets noticed only when the doctor says "you've caught something unpleasant."
When I was young ... my mother told me that you don't get the clap from toilet seats. But that was an excuse frequenly used by women. When they had to tell their husbands ... their name made it to a government list. Where sexually transmitted diseases got reported.
Believe what you want.
I see no crime here that got done without God's blessings.
It's just that to me God laughs. Some people think they hear other stuff. While I thought when it rained, God was taking a piss.
You know, I wouldn't want to be the taxpayer who provides the crew that watches over Jeffs.
It's just one religion chasing another religion's tail.
While it gets interesting for Blacks. Mormons didn't except them as human until 1978.
And, for my next question: What did Jeffs do when one of his wives turned 18, and had to get sent out for 2 years ... to go on a Mission?
Whose going to feed all those children?
And, I guess it pays to add ... at least the women and children weren't at WACO.
Whenevr I see this story on the news, I wonder why it merits national news attention.
Times change. We don't have to go back to the 6th century to find what we today would consider legalized child molestation. When Sally Hemmings traveled to Paris at 14, the age of consent in Virginia was 10. That seems a bit young to me. In Canada, it was 14 until recently. It's 12 in Mexico, 13 in Spain, and 14 in the Vatican.
In Texas, where Jeffs was convicted, the age is 17 and that seems ok to me and it seems ok that it should be stiffly enforced against adults more than 3 years older than the victim. Even when the molester is stuck in some retarded time warp, like Jeffs.
In the Colonial era, over half the first children were born less than 9 months after marriage--and mostly to teen aged moms.
Not true. About 30% of women in rural areas were pregnant when married. The average age of marriage for women was 21, an age that appears to be fairly universal.
I really hate the suggestions that getting raped in prison is just what he deserves, and is something to hope for and celebrate. Too many prisoners DO get raped. Prison rape isn't part of the sentence; rape in prison is still a crime.
The American prison system should be better than that.
In the Colonial era, over half the first children were born less than 9 months after marriage--and mostly to teen aged moms.
Not true, read Albion's Seed. Puritans were especially prone towards older brides - mid-twenties - but even the Scotch-Irish had average bride ages well above 18-19. People get these weird ideas about how young people got married in "frontier days", but the need to get together a nestegg generally drove the average age of marriage up further than you'd think.
And the Puritans used bundling bags for a reason. The goal was lots of children. People forget just how fecund New Englanders were, women averaged seven to eight children, and unlike Mother England, the majority of those kids lived to see adulthood. This is how about 40,000 immigrants turned New England into an overcrowded, overfarmed tinderbox swarming with pissed-off, land-poor, radical minutemen by the time of the Revolution.
"Mishigas" 60 is Yiddish.
When I was a kid Yiddish words were put inside the English language.
As a matter of fact, ALL of the English language as we know it, sponges up words outside of itself.
"Mishigas" translates to "funny business."
And, to make my statement really simple ... I don't think Warren Jeffs broke the law ... Because I think our US Constitution draws a line between Church and State. (At least I think Thomas Jefferson said so.) And, he's no slouch. No "mishigas" there ...
While, I also added ... Jeffs women and children were lucky they weren't at WACO.
While it gets interesting for Blacks. Mormons didn't except them as human until 1978.
Sorry Carol, I can't let that one stand.
You're Jewish. I'm Mormon back to the beginning. B.Y. is my great great grandfather.
Here's what I want you to konw:
1. Joseph Smith was an abolitionist, and has been said to be the first person to publicly advocate the sale of U.S. government lands to purchase and free all slaves as a potential resolution to the problem. (cite to Bushman's Biography)
2. Mormons were never slaveholders, and didn't get along with Missourians and were kicked out of the state because of it.
3. For a time blacks were only restricted from holding the priesthood, but were free to be members and were not excluded from any other rite or blessing. The Mormons saw this as similar to the ancient law that only Levites were allowed to hold the priesthood, which did not necessarily denigrate any other tribes.
4. There were in fact 3 black servants (not slaves) - 3 blacks in Brigham Young's vanguard company that went to the great basin of the Salt Lake in 1847. They were baptized members of the Mormon church at that time.
5. When the priesthood was extended to blacks in 1978, it happened in one weekend, the announcement went out from Salt Lake, and literally the entire church turned on a dime, and there were no schisms or hold outs or mass exoduses, which tells you Mormons' true feelings about the matter.
6. Mormon congregations are formed by geography, not self-selected.
So if you go to the Harlem congregation, you'll see whites and blacks worshiping together, as you would in Hyde Park Chicago, or Atlanta, or our congregation around Dallas.
Hence, Mormons don't have black Mormon congregations or white congregations, except as demographics and geography dictate.
Where else, besides Catholicism, will you find that in Christianity?
6. Here are a number of black Mormons talking about their membership. Judge for yourself.
We do have separation of church and state and freedom of religion. That doesn't mean that we as a society have to tolerate wacko religious nut jobs who believe God wants them to molest children. Nor do we have to tolerate parents who decline to have their children's life-saving medical needs attended to. Nor do we have to tolerate the mother that drowns her children because God told her to, no matter the sincerity of her beliefs.
Where else, besides Catholicism, will you find that in Christianity?
Lutheranism. We're the laid-back Catholics...cuz we KNOW we're right.
I've been following this case closely, in addition to having read avidly on the subject of the FLDS. This is fabulous news, but I fear its not over. The FLDS has been compared to the Mafia in the way they run their operation - pedophilia is just one of many crimes committed in that closed community. Authorities need to keep an eye on Warren Jeff's bodyguard, Willie Jessop, who appears to have provided Jeffs with "muscle" over the years and is known to have a taste for violence. Look him up on YouTube and watch him spin the Texas raid as much ado about nothing...
Oh, you Lutherans. Your most important doctrine: We're not Catholic!
And the Missouri Synod Lutherans are anything but laidback.
And the Missouri Synod Lutherans are anything but laidback.
You got me in one...and yes, we are. Just don't try and nail anything on our doors.
Quayle at 2:29 PM
I don't mind being corrected. All I know about Mormonism, I just learned on an audio ... of a recording ... of the Broadway Show.
Yeah. Written by the team that produced South Park. That's where I learned about 1978.
The song fest starts with HELLO ... And, goes on a "Mission" that takes two kids to Africa. It's sort'a like the King and I ... where I learned all about SIAM.
Take issue. Be my guest.
No, 60 @ 1:15 PM. You could be mishuga, too?
Mishigas stands alone.
It's like putz. Which describes the shortest length penis you can imagine. And, then, it has to be bigger to be a schmuck.
Mishigas. Megilla. To each his own.
"I don't mind being corrected. All I know about Mormonism, I just learned on an audio ... of a recording ... of the Broadway Show."
Brilliant show, I am told, and do believe it.
Jeffs' was a breakaway sect, remember, not mainstream Mormon. It wasn't just the forcing of child brides, which is what they got him on, it was also the ejection of young men once the boys became of an age to compete sexually with the leaders. They threw away their boys. No punishment is too severe. Spike him publicly! (I'm coming to appreciate the Ottomans .)
Don't Mess With Texas! We actually put women in prison for molesting boys at school. One of my daughters middle school teachers got 5 years.
Carol_Herman said: I don't think Warren Jeffs broke the law ... Because I think our US Constitution draws a line between Church and State. (At least I think Thomas Jefferson said so.) And, he's no slouch. No "mishigas" there ...
Come on Carol, you are not being serious are you? It is okay for some 40 or 50 year old guy to marry a 12 year old because he decides it is okay? I hope you were just being ironic or sarcastic.
I like that story a British commander in India being told that wife burning was thier religious custom. He patiently listened to this petition from the locals, then informed them that it was British custom to hang people who burnded widowed wives alive.
It was not quite so simple:
Even before the regulation was promulgated, some three hundred orthodox Hindus petitioned Lord Bentinck to stop the abolition. They pleaded that the practice of "self immolation", was not merely a sacred duty but a "privilege" of believers. Bentinck however would not relent. Orthodox Bengali Brahmins formed themselves into the Dharma Sabha (Religion Council) and collected a huge sum to fight the Regulation all the way up to the highest court, the Privy Council in England. In 1832 the appeal was heard by the Privy Council. The petitioners argued that it went against the basic assurance given in George III Statute 37 whereby the Hindus were assured complete noninterference with their religion. The abolitionists argued that there was really no freedom of religion that could go beyond what was "compatible with the paramount claims of humanity and justice." Of 7 privy councilors, three finally voted against Bentinck's regulation but finally it was it was upheld (John Stratton Hawley, Sati, the Blessing and the Curse: The Burning of Wives in India, Oxford University Press US, 1994). Madras and then Bombay followed suit with their own legislation banning Sati. Slowly local rulers who came under the yoke of the British also conceded legislation against Sati in conformity with the British regulations. The rulers of Jaipur banned it in 1846.
It took a combination of legislation, court action and education, but that effectively ended wife burning in India. And the same should be done in regards to adult men marrying child brides. It is not a good thing and should be universally condemned.
You can get away with almost anything in this country, at least for a while, as long as you throw the word "spiritual" on top of it.
It's a "tell."
For a time blacks were only restricted from holding the priesthood, but were free to be members and were not excluded from any other rite or blessing. The Mormons saw this as similar to the ancient law that only Levites were allowed to hold the priesthood, which did not necessarily denigrate any other tribes.
sigh.
For a time = ?
"free to be members" in a group the teachings (from The Prophet(s) of God) of which limited them (no Melchizedek priesthood for them)from attaining the Celestial Kingdom, which meant no chance of getting a planet of their own to populate, no matter how well they kept the Word of Wisdom or did the other stuff. (Could they do Temple marriages? Honestly don't remember.)
Mormons suffer from an organizational "problem" the RCs have. You both have a Pope / Prophet who speaks for God ... Who, if they don't .... Well, there could be trouble in River City.
As for no disagreement or schisms -- perhaps not on this particular issue (blacks) but where do you think all the polygamists splinter groups came from? Not to mention what used to be called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, etc., etc. That's part of what the Warren Jeffs thing is about.
(Not to mention that political expediency was a large influence on the timing of the prophets' pronouncements. [Statehood? Civil rights?] George Romney didn't have a chance.)
traditionalguy,
A cult is a group following the teachings of a False Prophet.
Does that make Obama's believers in Totus oracles a cult?
According to what I read, yeah. Hey, Ann, you *rationally* talked yourself into a cult!!!!!!!!
If you care to read up on this stuff I highly recommend Jon Krakaurer's Under the Banner of Heaven and Escape, by Carolyn Jessup who did in fact escape from the Jeff's cult. I found both books riveting.
Krakauer does not suffer fools gladly. I like his books a lot. He is a damn good writer and honest.
caplight:
I am eagerly awaiting Sam Brower's book "Prophet's Prey", due for release in Sept. He is a private investigator that has been probing into the cult for nearly a decade.
I also fear the FLDS may simply set up shop south of the border...there are FLDS compounds in Mexico and Guatemala already - I'm sure they have been planning ahead for years for the day they simply can't carry on in the US.
Years ago, there was a cultish Baptist group from Germany that set up shop in Chile due to attention from the German authorities. Can't recall the name but the leader was also a pedophile who conducted medical experiments on young girls to see if he could stunt their growth and keep them young. Also forbade sex between married couples on the Chilean compound - no children were born for a few years. Name of the cult escapes me now - but gives Warren Jeffs a run for his money...
Fred For Prez. @ 9:06 PM
YUP. I think men of 40 or more ... as long as they're getting it up ... make much better lovers than a teenager. Who can cum before he gets his dick out of his pants.
Before we got to electric lights, women didn't even have to tell their husbands to turn the lights off. The just blew off the candle.
Sure. Married sex can be boring. But I knew women who could do it ... without even having their "done" hair mussed up while they were leaning back on the pillow.
You know. What Queen Victoria said to her daughter: "Dear, just put your head on the pillow and think of England."
Then, a few Jewish comedians went on stage. Stand up. And, said when they had sex their wives would tell them the ceiling needed painting. (And, they weren't even discussing Michelangelo.)
Even at 12 ... Maybe, especially at 12 ... a girl might want more cookies than she'd get from her mom's table? Maybe? Maybe, marriage was the solution to hunger.
Today, the Crack Emcee put up the link to ERIC IDLE. PERFECT! It says it all.
While show business is only for the lucky few.
I actually found Krakauer to be amazingly even handed in his portrayal of the history of Mormanism. His portrayal of the FLDS was brutally honest.
Going way back to the first comment about polygamy versus child molestation. Polygamy breeds incest and child molestation. In the FLDS you cannot separate them.
Sadly, Joseph Smith liked to chase young tail. His wife never approved of polygamy and many in the early Morman community did not approve of it. In fact Smith was almost castrated once by an angry mob of Morman men for his philandering.
wv: tailic-Joseph Smith was a tailic because he liked to chase young tail.
Mormanism=LDS
From Wikipedia:
Mormonism is the religion practiced by Mormons, and is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement.
The term Mormon derived from the Book of Mormon, one of the faith's religious texts. Based on the name of that book, early followers of founder Joseph Smith, Jr. were called Mormons, and their faith was called Mormonism. The term was initially considered pejorative, but is no longer considered so by Mormons.
Seriously. You are right. I can't spell. I'm not on my own computer. And Joseph Smith was ...well as Krakauer says, the challange for Mormon (Hooray) historians is that we know to much about Smith from extant records of the early to mid 1800's.
Personally, I don't trust a religion that came from a Sicilian angel.
Oh, I don't know, 60 grit. If anyone's short a mother ... I'll be their mother, too.
It's easy. Anyone can be a Jewish mother. First you open a window. Then, you make sure there are lots of kids outside ... And, you give a good HELLO.
When Mrs. Goldberg opened her window ... her kids came home before her sentence was done.
And, yes. It was a TV series. You got a Jewish mother with Mrs. Goldberg. And, you got a doctor when you called Marcus Welby.
TV, in its golden age was wonderful.
The Crack Emcee said...
You can get away with almost anything in this country, at least for a while, as long as you throw the word "spiritual" on top of it.
It's a "tell."
When ever anyone mentions anything green, spiritual, new age, Jesus, Jehovah, Mohammed, Allah, God, G_d, Zeus, astrology, involving symbols like ☮ or that look like any sort of fish, Greek letters like ΙΧΘΥΣ (and I include fraternities and sorrorieties in that group), hindu, chinese, or japanese characters used by people who almost certainly have no clue how to speak, read or write hindu, chinese, or japanese, or religious in terms of any business transaction...
I check to make sure I still have my wallet.
Personally, I don't trust a religion that came from a Sicilian angel.
I do not know about that, Sicilian angel food cake is absolutely kick ass! But they soak it in orange or lemon liquor which does not exactly fit in with LDS practices.
Carol if you think what Jeffs did to that 12 year old is okay, I would not want you anywhere near my kids. Sorry, you are insane.
易在床上
I didn't say Sicilians couldn't cook. That would be blasphemy.
I like the yellow cake soaked in rum. So good.
Sixty
"Old made up religions trump new made up ones, eh? Mormonism is as legit as any religion."
Scientology anyone?
BTW - strictly speaking, Jeffs isn't a Mormon. He's FLDS - fundamentalist - and they were kicked out of the group when Utah became a state.
It's not a huge distinction to me, but it is to them.
Crack, I am not a LDS believer, but I generally find it's members to be unobjectionable. Live and let live. But I can't say the same for any cult that condones child molestation.
Fred,
I've got a good friend who's a Mormon - wonderful guy. He's also a Democrat who doesn't understand how I couldn't have voted for Obama. We tease each other. Everyone else either stares at us, confused, or ducks under the furniture, waiting for the blow-up that never comes.
Maturity, y'know?
Fred 4 Prez. I recently heard there was an ultrasound where the baby inside was masturbating.
People like you lie to their kids.
They tell them stories about "storks," and tooth fairies. And, they have no qualms about lying.
I wouldn't want you near kids.
It's a stupid argument, though. I learned people have kids without having anyone test them on responsibility or truthfulness.
And, some girls at 10 ... not told to expect blood ... (And, yes, I had such a girl friend). Who was at the beauty parlor ... When she came out of the bathroom hysterical! Because she was bleeding.
You know, just like some kids bleed at 10. Some kids have had orgasms before they even reach kindergarten.
As to the marriages among Mormons, as was done here ... It comes with the blessings of the community.
Taught. Just like racism's got to be taught.
Sexual feelings? Natural. Awakenings, alone, at first, I think.
Who can imagine any other human masturbating?
Religion, however, grabbed hold of telling people myths about marriage. This crap starts getting heard before a kid reaches their 12th birthday.
Jeffs family is just lucky they weren't at WACO! What a crime that was!
Oh, I think Fred Thompson was a clown, not a candidate. But he sucked a cigar well. Posed a lot. Didn't get much leverage from it, either.
Carol Herman, you think 12 year old girls should have sex with 40+ year old men? Yes, you should not be around kids.
Everything you assumed about me is false. I am a social libertarian--I am a fiscal conservative. But there is right and wrong on certain things, and Lolita fantasies are wrong. Sorry.
As for Fred and the age difference with his wife, at least she was over 30!
Crack, I have a lot of liberal friends, some of which I love like brothers. We kid about politics too but it is what it is.
Other faiths are like that too. There is no way I am ever going to buy in. But if the individual is cool it does not matter.
Cults however creep me out. They make my hair go up on the back of my neck.
Sixty Grit, cults tend to be personality driven, exploitative of their members, and highly focused on revenue streams.
Now there are plenty of mainstream religions that are two of those three. But like pornography, you know it when you see it.
I actually think that this was a good thing for polygamy. Maybe.
We have discussed before that there really isn't much of a decent argument against polygamy, per se, if gay marriage is allowed. Polygamy has a long history and acceptance throughout the world. The Mormons weren't the first to practice it in this world, and, indeed, some billion people on this Earth currently practice a religion that condones it.
The answer then may be to just put the age of consent for second and subsequent spouses at 18 or so, and enforce the laws against child molestation, statutory rape, etc. The Jeffs of this world go to prison to face what they may face there for child molestation, and when a group of consenting adults wish to marry, they can.
I actually think that this was a good thing for polygamy. Maybe.
We have discussed before that there really isn't much of a decent argument against polygamy, per se, if gay marriage is allowed. Polygamy has a long history and acceptance throughout the world. The Mormons weren't the first to practice it in this world, and, indeed, some billion people on this Earth currently practice a religion that condones it.
The answer then may be to just put the age of consent for second and subsequent spouses at 18 or so, and enforce the laws against child molestation, statutory rape, etc. The Jeffs of this world go to prison to face what they may face there for child molestation, and when a group of consenting adults wish to marry, they can.
I know this thread is played out but Carol, seriously, take a step back. I would suggest reading some of the books by women who have escaped the FLDS. The word cult doesn't do it justice and there is often no willingness or consent on the part of the young girl. It is coercive sex, forced sex and is abuse. What I find appalling is that it is allowed to continue in the United States.
wv: preavert-nuff said. You can't make this stuff up.
caplight and bruce, it suddenly dawned on me with these comments that Carol is not merely quirky, Carol is mentally ill. I can draw my line in the sand on adult men having sex with 12 year olds (or younger as Carol implied is okay) as being wrong. That of course has nothing to do with promoting sex or biology education. If you disagree, you disagree. But I will not feel the least bit bad for those who end up in prison as a result of crossing that line.
Carol H,
Just because nature allows for younger females to become pregnant, does not make it okay. An old man who forces a young girl into a marrige and use her for breading against her better judgement is WRONG!!He and the rest of his people wrongly perpatrated against young girls brainwashing them into thinking that it was ok to marry an old man and bare his children. That compleatly goes against what God gave all Humans' Free Will" Carol, I urge you to educate your self better on these subjects. Learning about this stuff from a Cartoon does not give you the right to voice your oppinion!! Especially when you obviously do not know anthing!! I compleatly agree, you should not be allowed near children if you think there isnt any laws being broken when a grown man has sex with a child.
So carol,
You think just because Nature allows for babies and young children have the biological sex genes that may or may not cause them to feel things sexually, Makes it ok for adults to take advantage of that? Think about all the young girls who have become pregnant and then have died because their little fragile bodies were not developed enough to give birth. Just because they may or may not beable to have sexual feelings does not make it okay for them to have sex. Children are not mentaly equipped for sex. They need to be allowed to grow and mature as human beings and not preyed upon. And as far as teaching kids about the tooth fairy or santa, that statement you made does not compare to Child Sexual, mental and physical abuse caused by adults such as your self. Yes. People such as your self who condone what Warren Jeffs has done and do not think its wrong. People who exploit children in the name of Religion and Nature ought to be jailed. If a person wants to live in a polygamist lifestyle so be it, but at least let them choose that lifestyle with the full mental capacity and understanding of what they are doing, and not be forced into it against their better understanding and will. Carol you truely are a Jackass!!!
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