His arrest... led to soul-searching about the treatment of women in France and a new assertiveness challenging male behavior. Responses to the latest news seemed to suggest that the debate had become less clear-cut.What to do with all that insight gained? This reminds me of the old Tawana Brawley story, which led to soul-searching about racial bigotry and then turned out to be a fraud. One solution back then was to claim the insights are still good, even if the news that triggered the soul-searching was false.
“This is a slap in the face of the feminists,” said Marc Marciano, 53, a trader in Neuilly-sur-Seine, a Paris suburb....
In her book "The Alchemy of Race and Rights," lawprof Patricia J. Williams wrote that Brawley "has been the victim of some unspeakable crime. No matter how she got there. No matter who did it to her and even if she did it to herself."
I vividly remember a job talk at my law school in which the candidate described a racially charged incident with the police. He was questioned about whether the incident really happened that way, and his response — delivered quickly and glibly — was that the anecdote worked as an object of study from which to spin off insights whether it was true or not. The job talk was exceedingly well received.
If that seems terribly wrong to you, explain why, when we consume works of overt fiction — novels and movies and so forth — we feel that we derive insights applicable to the real world. I think some fictions resonate. They seem to speak to real life. They are not purely escapist fantasy. If it isn't wrong to use some works of fiction in our efforts to understand the real world, is it necessarily always wrong to use a news story presented as true that later turns out to be false?
UPDATE: "Dominique Strauss-Kahn was released from house arrest on Friday as the sexual assault case against him moved one step closer to dismissal after prosecutors told a Manhattan judge that they had serious problems with the case."
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194 comments:
The only black woman ever raped by a white man was Crystal Gail Mangum.
It does seem important, somehow, to stay aware that when we're talking about fiction, that it's fiction. Insightful, thought-provoking, useful, but not "true" in the same way that events that have occurred out in the "meat popsicle" world are true. Suggesting otherwise is known to some of us as "lying" and not a good thing.
Works of overt fiction do not embroil human beings in court battles to prove innocence and do not threaten livelihoods and careers.
Works of overt fiction do not advance the political careers of bigotted, anti-Semitic, malicious liars like Al Sharpton.
One solution back then was to claim the insights are still good, even if the news that triggered the soul-searching was false.
So the ends justify the means?
"has been the victim of some unspeakable crime. No matter how she got there. No matter who did it to her and even if she did it to herself." [Emphasis added]
This is morally addled bullshit.
The "work" of fiction presents itself as such. The "work" of legal argument, criminal complaint, autobiography, or parking ticket excuse that intentionally presents itself as fact/truth/honest perception only to be found to be fiction drives a response based on theoretical claims and "what ifs".
If you don't think that outcomes based on theory vs facts make a difference...I suggest you take a long hard look at our economy. The ivory tower econmic theorist acamedicians ducked and retreated to their towers when it became obvious that theory wasn't cutting it. The one remaining, Geitner, is looking for his rat hole to escape the sinking ship now.
The dramatization of the current fabulously martyred victim is the very nut of leftist propaganda.
Dylan peddled it with the triple murderer Hurricane Carter.
Gays pushed it with the Matthew Shepard murder.
Al Sharpton and Tawana Brawley.
All those lefty professors who hanged nooses on their own doorknobs and took sledge hammers to their own cars in order to dramatize the evils of racism.
Yes, there is evil in this.
The myth of gay martyrdom is entirely fabricated. And, Althouse, you seem to have swallowed it whole.
I'll repeat a story you don't want to hear. My last full time job was at a publishing house in Manhattan. I was just about the only straight guy in the shop.
The gay guys and fag hags were obsessed with fantasizing that the armies of the evangelicals were massing on the west banks of the Hudson for the final genocidal assault on the West Village. They went to plays and movies on this subject, or made plays and movies on this subject constantly.
Evil President Bush was supposedly leading this genocidal conspiracy.
They've fooled just about everybody with their martyrdom fantasies. So much so, that we all seem to agree that tens of thousands of gays died at the hands of hetereo men, when in fact, tens of thousands of gays died as a result of their own behavior during the AIDS epidemic.
DOJ says that essentially zero black women are raped by white men in a given year:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0602.pdf (table 42).
People like faith-promoting rumors.
Still not ready to proclaim DSK innocent. The charges against the alleged victim either deal with things that have nothing to do with the case or they are too vague.
"Pity France,..."
Not in this lifetime.
"... that now seems not to have been what it once appeared to be."
Where is your evidence, Ann, for this pathetic statement?
A single New York Times story based on a single anonymous source?
Wow. You join Whoopie Goldberg in the "rape-rape" hall of fame. What a fucking shame.
I hope you are raped one day and nobody believes you.
When people watch, say, "X Men: First Class" and relate it to real-world events, everyone involved knows that the movie is fictional. When someone like Al Sharpton uses the example of Tawana Brawley to make points about race relations in the real world, not everyone understands that most of what they have heard about her case is made up. This kind of demagoguery goes on all the time, and that's what we call it, right?
The problem with using fake stories to draw real conclusions is that the "faker" can steer you any way he wants, create an alternative reality, but you act in actual reality.
AGW anecdotes come to mind, and those have cost this nation terribly, both in terms of dollars and freedom. I'd like to figure out the true cost of the hysteria, but I haven't really tried yet. I'm sure it's in the tens of billions, possibly the hundreds.
The problems are with the victim's credibility unrelated to this; yes, even a liar can be raped. DSk,immediately after this allegedly consensual accounter, certainly fled where none pursueth.
The myth of gay martyrdom exists solely because gays love to work in media and they are very good at it.
So, they've fabricated a media campaign that portrays them are martyrs.
There can't be anything wrong with that. Right?
ST,
We all seem to agree that tens of thousands of gays died at the hands of hetereo men, when in fact, tens of thousands of gays died as a result of their own behavior during the AIDS epidemic.
Let's not forget who was guiding that behavior,....Oh - silly me - that's not important.
Carry on.
NY Post Headline: "Prosecutors agree to free Strauss-Kahn on own recognizance"
NY Post Story Immediately Below That Headline: "Attorneys for Dominique Strauss-Kahn -- furious that the ex-IMF chief remains a house-arrest prisoner in his rented SoHo townhome despite what even prosecutors admit are serious "credibility issues" -- will ask a judge this morning that he be released without any bail whatsoever, according to a source close to the case. It is unclear whether prosecutors will join in the request by defense lawyers Benjamin Brafman and William Taylor."
So the headline says prosecutors have agreed to release him, but the story says prosecutors haven't made any such agreement.
These are clues, people, that there is a rush on to get the fix in.
Anything they can do to get him released from that bail so he can join his buddy and fellow rapist Roman Polanski back in France where we have no extradition treaty.
With 10 minutes of them releasing this guy, he'll be back in First Class Air France and headed to Paris where we can't touch him.
So, Shouting Thomas, what you're saying is that Matthew Shepard wasn't murdered-murdered?
Jesus, you talk about gay more than I do, and I'm gay. Maybe if you quit shoving it in people's faces, we'd be more sympathetic to your cause, whatever it is.
And, more on topic, France didn't (and doesn't) need a sexual assault case, real or fictional (or quasi-fictional) to see that they're assholes. It's self-evident, and I say that as a Francophile.
Despite Tawana Brawley's story being a fraud, racism is still bad.
Despite racism being bad, Al Sharpton is still a huckster.
is it necessarily always wrong to use a news story presented as true that later turns out to be false?
There's nothing inherently wrong with insights regardless. As to the wrongness of the origin of those insights...it depends on the story-tellers intent, doesn't it? If the story-teller sets out to deceive the audience by presenting something as true, only to admit falsehood after being challenged, I would call that a disservice for two reasons. First, it will cast doubt on the story-teller in the minds of those listening from there on out, even if it's only just below the conscious level. Two, the audience may be less inclined to believe ANYONE telling that type of story in the future owing to the experience of being deceived previously.
If one picks up a work of fiction or goes to take in a movie, rare is the person that looks up at the screen, sees Denzel walking across the nuclear-blasted landscape and then starts worrying about where they are going to be able to recharge their Ipod after the movie is over. It's understood to be fiction and any insights achieved therein can be viewed through that lens. For instance, good apocalyptic fiction, be it book, movie, or games like Fallout, have definitely encouraged me to squeeze every last erg of utility out of things I own before throwing them away.
On the other hand, if one goes to a symposium on race relations and is told stories about racially charged episodes only to find out later they were not true, it creates a coarseness in whatever discourse might happen afterward.
Remember, he's already been indicted by a grand jury (not some rogue prosecutor).
The people demand a trial. The victim has the right to see her rapist stand trial whether she has lied on immigration forms or not.
This is a travesty of American justice that you see playing out before your eyes.
There is no better example of how powerful rich people can get away with anything in the United States.
Professor, you are getting as bad as van Susteren and O'Reilly.
Let's have the trial first, and see what kind of a trial it turns out to be, before we jump to concussions again.
So far, everybody in this mess might be lying, or more likely telling part truth and part lies, and we should at least try to have it sorted out a bit before we go off half-cocked.
CrackEmcee: Not in this lifetime.
That.is.perfect.
See, Shouting Thomas just can't stop talking about us gays! It's all he thinks about! He can't even discuss a woman being (allegedly) raped by a man without rabbiting on about the gays!
So, Shouting Thomas, what you're saying is that Matthew Shepard wasn't murdered-murdered?
I'm not saying that Shepard wasn't murdered. What I've read suggests that his gaydom may have played no part in his murder.
Also, at the very time Shepard was murdered, two gay guys in the South picked up a hetero teenager, tortured him physcially and sexually for days, then murdered him.
Nobody thought this had broader cultural meaning. In fact, the press ignored the crime committed by the gay guys just about completely.
Our New Motto: Never let facts interfere with a good story. But a society that ridicules seeking truth becomes a very unsafe place. Today's greatest evils are coming out of "Sciences" derived from faked data. I guess the Muslims rule is now to be adopted here that says the testimony of two women is needed to equal the testimony of one man.
See, Shouting Thomas just can't stop talking about us gays! It's all he thinks about! He can't even discuss a woman being (allegedly) raped by a man without rabbiting on about the gays!
The classic strategy of the gay activist.
Don't criticize us or you're a fag!
So, if you think being gay is an vicious accusation, Palladian, why continue to be gay?
And, the post is not solely about rape. Althouse also reference racial issues.
Palladian, respond to this and quit the furious attempt to change the subject:
They've fooled just about everybody with their martyrdom fantasies. So much so, that we all seem to agree that tens of thousands of gays died at the hands of hetereo men, when in fact, tens of thousands of gays died as a result of their own behavior during the AIDS epidemic.
Lies cannot reveal truth. Fiction can reveal essential truths about human nature because, as others have noted, the author is creating a context that is true in the world of the text.
In a work of fiction we know ahead of time.. the ensuing lie over whether or not it is a true story or a lie trumps/overwhelm whatever illumination the story could afford.
It also occurs to me that the acceptance (if you will) of this lie (if only for "insight") will only encourage more lying.
(see Stephen Glass, Jason Blair)
In court room drama, I've often heard the call 'objection' to the relevance of a testimony and the response comes back as 'stablising foundation' or something.
If the foundation of what we learn/gain insight is false it must be given less weight.
I think you have to recognize, always, that the story in the paper is only one side of it, and there are facts that you (and the reporter) do not know that might turn the case on its head. This is even true of convictions.
Jane Marple said it best, something like Always assume people are lying to you.
The difference is people reading fiction recognize it is fiction, and if you try to pass off something that didn't happen as factual in a job interview it's known as lying. Which does lead to an important insight into the job candidate - he's dishonest and can't be trusted - although that's probably not the reaction he was looking for.
wv these are a few of my favorite 'fings'
Lincolntf,
AGW anecdotes come to mind, and those have cost this nation terribly, both in terms of dollars and freedom. I'd like to figure out the true cost of the hysteria, but I haven't really tried yet. I'm sure it's in the tens of billions, possibly the hundreds.
Jesus CHRIST, man, will you hesh up?!? Ann's trying to get us to feel pity for socialist France, through it's socialist leader, who - at best - was getting a little nooky "on the side" (because that's what they do - nudge, nudge, wink, wink) and by remembering black liars. (I'm waiting to see how low her halo gets before she's wearing it like a headband.) Reminding us how we've been taken - and for how much - by those well-intentioned white liars, just fucks up the whole program. Not to mention making all that WORK nobody seems too concerned about doing since we're in a DEBT CRISIS. Who wants to really find out where money from such fraud went?
Stick to fiction, mayne, it's better for your health than acknowledging you're living one.
The old ways are best and after the inevitable worldwide collapse the patriarchy will reassert itself and women will be outwardly resentful but inwardly grateful.
Don't criticize us or you're a fag!
ST, I just want you to know that I have never thought you were a fag.
Not that if you were, there'd be anything wrong with that.
Well, in this case, I would be soul searching to determine how the French movers and shakers can manipulate foreign justice systems and Wisconsin law professors.
No one is saying the rape didn't happen. Her credibility on other matters is an issue but it is for a jury to decide if she is lying about the rape.
Palladian,
Jesus, you talk about gay more than I do, and I'm gay. Maybe if you quit shoving it in people's faces, we'd be more sympathetic to your cause, whatever it is.
The cause is truth. You're gay, and ST and I are two straights who are more than familiar with the culture. Please, tell us:
What is the relationship between gays, their aims, and the truth?
Come on now, be honest, we're all friends here,...
The myth that suburban white women are victims of oppression is a fabrication largely built on three books, all of which are just plain lies.
Betty Friedan: The Feminine Mystique. Friedan lied and presented herself as a housewife. In fact, her husband was quite wealthy and he provided her with a full time maid so she could work full time as a commie agitator.
Susan Brownmiller: Against Our Will. A classic of propaganda, asserting that all women live under the constant threat of rape and abuse. Led to the domestic violence and abuse hysterias, as well as an ongoing rape hysteria. Rape hysterias are the classic method of political propaganda.
Margaret Atwood: The Handmaid's Tale. A novel prophesying that Canada would be taken over by evangelical Christians who would enslave women. Canada was, and is, a feminist Utopia where men have no rights in their children and property and Christian ministers are imprisoned for teaching the traditional Christian outlook on homosexuality.
The great oppression of women is a lie.
Hagar,
So far, everybody in this mess might be lying, or more likely telling part truth and part lies, and we should at least try to have it sorted out a bit before we go off half-cocked.
Ain't the world of "mature adults" grand?
The raw data of life is a bewildering and confusing puzzle. We like to think that it is reducible to rational analysis and that there is some narrative that explains it all. We'd like to believe that fat assed bankers are evil and corrupt and that humble working people have been ennobled by their toil and are set upon by fat assed bankers. That narrative is supported by both the Marxist and Christian template and reinforced every time we go to the movies. Aesthically and dramatically it works fine, but life has its own narratives.....I don't know if it pays to be completely trusting or completely cynical about any of these templates.... I have been unable to find a working hypothesis that explains all the contradictions and reversals of my own life, and I hesitate to advance one that will explain the libido of DSK and the ambitions of his accuser. Still, the people like ST and nevadabob who are unshaken in their narratives probably have a better chance at a meaningful life for the simple fact that they believe it means something.
Sounds like the Frawgs are trying to find a way to convince themselves that they're superior to us, after all.
The idea that he still might be guilty of rape, her character notwithstanding, eludes them.
Of course, it also eludes the Fishwrap of Record.
"Let's have the trial first, and see what kind of a trial it turns out to be, before we jump to concussions again."
There won't be a trial. The main issue in the case is whether the sexual contact that happened was forced or consensual; that turns on the credibility of the only two people in the hotel room, and only one of them has to testify (the complainant, since the perp can elect not to). The complainant's testimony is the only evidence of lack of consent; if her credibility is shot, no prosecutor will go forward with a trial. Their problem on this case is that, not only does she have a history, questionable taste in friends, and a strong motive to lie (as shown by the conversation that the prison authorities taped); but she lied (it seems repeatedly) to the prosecution after the incident. Even without all the extra baggage, it's tough to get a jury to believe a witness if the prosecutor is in the difficult position of agreeing that the witness was a flagrant liar when she was interviewed by them about this very case.
Still, the people like ST and nevadabob who are unshaken in their narratives probably have a better chance at a meaningful life for the simple fact that they believe it means something.
What's my unshakeable narrative?
In terms of the rape story, I think that the Frenchie is a piece of shit, and the woman is a grifter and con artist. Probably, you can't believe anything either one of them says. The Frenchie deserves to be beaten in a back alley. The grifter deserves to be deported.
Explain what my ideological predisposition is in this case. What meaning do you suppose I an drawing here?
Hey guys.. leave my friend Palladian alone.
He is just reflexively reacting to a gay/straight prism that some people seem to immediately go for.
Its kind of like the opposite of Godwin's law, where the gay analogy will not wait until later in the tread, after an exhausted discussion, but pop up right at the beginning.
Soul searching is soap opera women.
In many soap operas, a permanent question is either implied or actually posed every day by the serial narrators. These questions are usually expressed in terms of doubt, indecision, or inner struggle. Which is more important, a woman's heart or a mother's duty? Could a woman be happy with a man fifteen years older than herself? Should a mother tell her daughter that the father of the rich man she loves ruined the fortunes of the daughter's father? Should a mother tell her son that his father, long believed dead, is alive, well, and a criminal? Can a good, clean Iowa girl find happiness as the wife of New York's most famous matinee idol? Can a beautiful young stepmother, can a widow with two children, can a restless woman married to a preoccupied doctor, can a mountain girl in love with a millionaire, can a woman married to a hopeless cripple, can a girl who married an amnesia case - can they find soap-opera happiness and the good, soap-opera way of life? No, they can't - not, at least, in your time and mine. The characters in Soapland and their unsolvable preplexities will be marking time on the air long after you and I are gone, for we must grow old and die, whereas the people of Soapland have a magic immunity to age, like Peter Pan and the Katzenjammer Kids. When you and I are in Heaven with the angels, the troubled people of Ivorytown, Rinsoville, Anacinburg, and Crisco Corners, forever young or forever middle-aged, will still be up to their ears in inner struggle, soul searching, and everlasting frustration.
James Thurber ``II - Ivorytown, Rinsoville, Anacinburg, and Crisco Corners'' _Soapland_ in _The Beast in Me and Other Animals_ p.222
There isn't going to be a trial. That's what this is all about.
Someone who lies on her asylum application can still be raped, but it makes it harder to prove based on her word alone.
The Frenchie deserves to be beaten in a back alley. The grifter deserves to be deported.
Daaaaamn, it's rare to see common sense in print!
More talk like that and I think this country might recover after all,...
If it isn't wrong to use some works of fiction in our efforts to understand the real world, is it necessarily always wrong to use a news story presented as true that later turns out to be false?
With respect, this is a below-par question.
"Is it necessarily always wrong to use a news story presented as true that later turns out to be false?"
Depends on who's using it and how. If I use true stories, fictional stories, or undiscovered lies to search my own soul, even falsehoods might make me a better person. But the moment I use lies to try to get you to search your soul, we have a problem.
"The main issue in the case is whether the sexual contact that happened was forced or consensual; that turns on the credibility of the only two people in the hotel room, and only one of them has to testify (the complainant, since the perp can elect not to). The complainant's testimony is the only evidence of lack of consent; if her credibility is shot, no prosecutor will go forward with a trial."
And this is where corruption enters.
When prosecutors have the power to drop a grand jury indictment against an obscenely rich, powerful person with a history of sexual assaults ... how does the poor victim get her justice?
Any prosecutor can ALWAYS make up many reasons NOT to try a case. That's how we get corruption.
In this instance, the "lying" appears to be related to the victim's asylum application, where people are routinely encouraged by their attorney's to exaggerate the repression they face in their home country.
Folks ... what you're seeing here is how rich people operate to corrupt our country. They put political pressure on prosecutors who then drop charges and the raped woman never gets her day in court to sit before a jury and tell them her story.
A grand jury of citizens has indicted Strauss-Kahn based on solid evidence. The victim has rights. Justice is supposed to be blind.
The woman deserves to be able to tell her story to a jury and to allow that jury to decide whether she is being truthful.
But that will never happen; and I predicted that it would never happen back on May 20, 2011.
And anyone who uses this NY Times story to justify advocating for the release of this rapist is advancing a hidden agenda (and yes, that includes you Ann.)
This isn't the Duke case.
In the Duke case, there was absolutely no evidence supporting Magnum's incredible story, and there was good evidence showing what she claimed could not have happened (an ATM shot of one of the accused, for example). The DNA evidence did not point to a sexual encounter with the lax players at all.
This case is about the credibility of the people involved. Neither seems to have much. That benefits the accused.
A lie:
P = F
P => Q IS true regardless of whether Q is true or not.
A fiction:
Assume P
P => Q is true, depends on if Q is true
Do I remember that right?
If so, you can see that disclosure upfront is everything.
Oh, what bullshit! Twanna Brawley was a sexually active 14 year old. Who had a strict mom. Who'd punish her if she didn't get into the house before curfew.
She didn't make curfew. She made up a story. Covered herself in dog poo. And, when she came home "late" ... she told her mom that white cops raped her.
She enjoyed the newspaper coverage. Blacks enjoyed seeing the white cops squirm.
Justice?
You want justice when you can get people who read newspapers to foam at the mouth?
For Crystal Gail Mangum, you needed the prosecutor to be Mike Nifong. And, you needed the crappiest professors at Duke. Who were leftist shills. Passing off crap for higher education credentials.
The Duke story was probably the first one that showed how fake our credentialing process is.
But the cherry on top is obama.
Nothing in his records bespeaks confidence in our system to give the best man a chance.
To the contrary. The left lets you purchase ANYTHING! And, EVERYTHING! But not everyone.
When we're lucky, PC will be dead.
In the Duke case, there was absolutely no evidence supporting Magnum's incredible story
The hell you say. She was from a victim class, twice over (black and female), and the accused were from an oppressor class three times over (white, affluent, male).
I don't know where you learned legal math, but 3 is greater than 2 where I was taught so that automatically meant there was reason believe the white, affluent, males had done unspeakable things to the poor woman.
Patricia Williams? She of Critical Race Theory which argues that law should neither be colorblind nor neutral, that black "stories" of oppression should carry more weight than "white" evidence and that "white" law shouldn't apply to blacks because they see things differently? That Patricia Williams?? Okay...
Fiction used as learning/teaching tools: good. Hypotheticals used as learning/teaching tools: good. Story-telling based on lies, but presented as truth used as learning/teaching tools: not good. Using one's narrative, one's "own reality," as basis for differing standards under the law: not good.
I just recently saw A Few Good Men. It was an entertaining movie, but, wow, did it ever propagate the liberal agenda. The black defendant in the case was noble and stalwart. His superior, the Marine Lt., Kiefer Sutherland, believed in the Marine Code and the King James Bible. He was, of course, a liar and a bully. The Marine Colonel, Jack Nicholson, was given a few good lines, but, in the end, he was clearly a fascist with no regard for the niceties of civilization. The yuppie, Tom Cruise, was the one who was willing to grow and learn and become a better person because of his values. Those values not surprisingly seemed to mirror those of the writer. At the end, women, minorities, Jews could only stand back and marvel at the moral perfection of the Yuppie's soul. That was the real point of their place in the narrative. Only the Marine Colonel couldn't see it, and for that he was justifiably damned......I don't begrudge Sorokin his liberal fantasies.. You got your money's worth of entertainment. But the implicit argument was not that the liberal narrative is morally superior, but that you can prove it in a court of law. Screw that.
While lucky for one LaCrosse player ... he not only left the party before Crystal Magnum began her dance ... He went to the ATM to take out money. Luckily, the machine provided PROOF. And, was date stamped.
If it wasn't for the ability of one of the accused to step forward and DISPROVE Crystal Mangum's tale ... all the Duke players, and their coach, would have been hung out to dry. Mike Nifong would still be practicing law.
How come the best evidence that Mike Nifong was wrong, was that he lost his license to practice at the Bar?
I think he got sued in civil court, but he filed for bankruptcy.
Are fraternities bankrupt?
Isn't a fraternity were a college male goes ... to be near tests that will show up in his courses?
It's not always the beer.
"If it isn't wrong to use some works of fiction in our efforts to understand the real world, is it necessarily always wrong to use a news story presented as true that later turns out to be false?"
I keep reading this and ask myself what the difference between truth and "truthiness" might be. I'm not sure that's entirely apt, though.
If I were trying to compare the facts of something like this to a novel, I'd say that what's wrong here is that someone is trying to take away a lesson from the middle of the book and then setting it down before they get to the conclusion. The lesson that might be learned would be completely flawed.
Althouse - " If it isn't wrong to use some works of fiction in our efforts to understand the real world, is it necessarily always wrong to use a news story presented as true that later turns out to be false?"
I am surprised at Althouse touting the value of a lie told by what the faction behind it believes is a LIE TOLD IN NOBLE CAUSE.
Then you are in the realm of people who historically believed the blood libel is not necessarily true, but it is helpful to remind people to be suspicious of Jews not necessarily loyal to the Principality and the Holy Roman Empire itself in the way aristocrats and vassals are.
Or the "Tawana Brawley story may not be true" but it could have been, and that is why we need new hate crime laws.
"The Duke lacrosse players might be innocent after all but it was necessary to expel them for the "health of the University" and "to allow the community to begin to heal".
is it necessarily always wrong to use a news story presented as true that later turns out to be false?
No.
In this case, they didn't know anything about this woman when they assumed that she was lying, and DSK had a history of similar bad behavior.
And they don't even know that it isn't true now. The NYT article takes unsavory aspects about the woman, some of them very slight, and paints them in the worst possible light. There was nothing in the information they provided that would make one think DSK is definitely innocent. It only increases the skepticism of her story.
(1) Lying on the asylum application is really no big surprise. We have millions of illegal aliens here, and that's no better. We wouldn't assume every illegal alien to be a liar.
(2) Discussing whether or not to press charges after the incident is not the least bit odd.
(3) The only relevant information is that her boyfriend is a criminal. But she would hardly be the first woman to have a criminal loser for a boyfriend.
(4) It is relevant, if true, that she has repeatedly lied about the DSK incident to investigators, but no details were offered about this assertion. If they're only talking about her asylum application, that is nothing.
The fact that the NYT is ready to write this woman off based on the above is evidence only of their own perspective from great privilege.
The Germans drew a great many insights from the story, "The Joooz burned the Reichstag." So I guess it's OK.
wv-whiblyse-what Elmer Fudd calls things like the Tawana Brawley story and most everything else liberals say.
Al Gore is a genius after all! A liar, sure, but he did it for us. Thanks, dude.
The problem with this idea is that it gives lies the same virtue as the truth.
I ain't going there.
The woman remains anonymous up to the current minute. Surely journalists know her name, but they have not published it. Now that she's the presumed evil-doer (got that from W!), they'll probably cough it up. But the presumption of victimhood was bad from the start, and a policy of publishing names right up front would tend to suppress this behavior. It would also tend to reduce the stigma attached to being a rape victim. That stigma is a major source of all that is wrong here.
If something is presented as literal truth, and then it turns out to be false, then THAT FACT becomes the primarily insight the lie has communicated about our world.
Fiction can present other possibilities and insights precisely because it's not claiming that they literally happened.
"I think some fictions resonate. They seem to speak to real life. "
This oversimplifies it, and indeed, doesn't give great fiction -- great art -- enough credit. It's not just that it speaks to real life, it creates life for us. It gives us the possibilities, it gives something new and something Good that was never there before. The work of Dickens doesn't just "resonate." It gives light in an often all-too-dark world.
Actually in this case, it wasn't the story that caused the soul-searching. It was the French reaction to the story.
The reaction, no matter what happens with the case, is not false. They automatically assumed that DSK was innocent and couldn't believe that some lowly maid could be allowed to make such an accusation. That should result in soul-searching, no matter what the outcome.
I see a theme developing today.
It is amazing how we accept some information effortlessly, and have to be force fed other stuff. I still say you are what you eat, no matter how it gets in ya.
We are a long way from a proven fraud like Tawana Brawley.
bagoh20,
The problem with this idea is that it gives lies the same virtue as the truth.
I ain't going there.
I have noticed, for some time, that Ann finds the friction in that circumstance exciting. I still don't know why. It must be a lawyer thing (or a feminist thing, or the mother of a gay kid thing, or a NewAge thing) because it's definitely ugly from the outside.
What if being a bigot, blinded to all that does not fit, turns out to be the most effective strategy in the evolution of man - will this stuff about self-questioning be reevaluated?
@ST: I think that your narrative is, in this case at least, probably the right one. However, if you think your life and experiences have left you free of all narrative bias that is itself a kind of narrative bias. The righteous are not always right but they do win a lot of arguments. See my post on A Few Good Men above.
The reaction, no matter what happens with the case, is not false. They automatically assumed that DSK was innocent and couldn't believe that some lowly maid could be allowed to make such an accusation. That should result in soul-searching, no matter what the outcome.
Cultural difference. French still believe that protecting their men is of primary importance. In the U.S., men are seen as fungible, serving only at the pleasure of women.
Don't think the French will be soul searching. I think they'll continue to believe that loyalty to their men is of paramount importance.
One solution back then was to claim the insights are still good,...
Which was another lie. What was to be learned is that bearing false witness against others does great harm. In Brawley's case is created a broader racial chasm between the races. These case also create a broader chasm between the genders.
The other lesson to be learned is that some people are lying, manipulating scum bags that won't hesitate to harm others for their own personal gain or the gain for their chosen special interest group.
French still believe that protecting their men is of primary importance. In the U.S., men are seen as fungible, serving only at the pleasure of women.
So you think it's a feature of French society, not a bug, that they would automatically dismiss poor people of no status and unknown reputation and automatically believe rich people of high status and terrible reputation?
What did NOT happen today?
Charges were NOT DROPPED.
While Kahn has been released from his bail requirements, he is still accused of rape and remains under indictment.
I predict right here, and right now, with complete confidence that he will never see the inside of a courtroom and that he will flee back to France where we will be unable to extradite him.
Today's events are the means to allow him to leave the country with his $5 million and to escape justice.
Hagar - "Let's have the trial first, and see what kind of a trial it turns out to be, before we jump to concussions again."
============
The problem is a mythical thought process in most people that The Big Trial is the place any charge or arrest should result in. And at the Big Trial the wonderful lawyers will Find Out the Truth and the innocent will skip out of the majestic court unburdened and happy as puppies.
If the legal system takes something to trial on behalf of a lying accuser or a monstrous career lawyer on the prosecutors side simply wanting scalps to advance their career or political prospects....the legal system has already failed at multiple steps. And the accused who is innocent or charged in great excess to the event has already suffered significant damage - emotional, financial, lost job, reputation. Loss of freedom if you are assigned by lawyers to pretrial jail, public shaming by "perp walks", etc.
That is the great fallacy of people that think it no biggie to send everyone to a Big Trial. The Noble Jury will make it all OK again and fix the boo-boo.
That it is all no biggie once you are exonerated.
You may have lost your job, a substantial part of your life savings, the cops or a scummy lawyer that fouled up have sovereign immunity of the state and cannot be sued.
" ... and couldn't believe that some lowly maid could be allowed to make such an accusation. That should result in soul-searching, no matter what the outcome."
Freeman, isn't this essentially what Ann has done today? She has immediately jumped to the conclusion that - "well, the NY Times says she's a liar, so that's that! She's lying."
Are you as disturbed by this as I am? This is a flaw in Ann Althouse's character.
I suspect that in Ann's house, if the NY Times writes it, it is the Gospel.
That should cause some intense soul-searching on her part.
Maybee said: There isn't going to be a trial. That's what this is all about.
Nay, nay. the Hokey Pokey is what it's all about.
William: I'm always rooting for Col. Jessup. Sorkin gave him way too good a speech. Everytime I see it I say, "Makes sense to me!"
Liberals lie, fabricate and fictionalize because, in Col. Jessup's words, They can't handle the truth!"
If there's such terrible racism and sexism somewhere, you shouldn't have to use fiction to make a point about it.
I suspect that in Ann's house, if the NY Times writes it, it is the Gospel.
I believe there is ample evidence in her posts since I've been around to refute that...but I don't know if those examples are true or just told to form my insight as such.
I hope you are raped one day and nobody believes you.
Did I actually read this?
"If the legal system takes something to trial on behalf of a lying accuser or a monstrous career lawyer on the prosecutors side simply wanting scalps to advance their career or political prospects....the legal system has already failed at multiple steps."
That is NOT what is occurring here.
One anonymous source has leaked that this victim exaggerated her asylum application to get into this country.
That's the LIE they're referencing.
There is not a single allegation in the NY Times story that the victim is lying about her rape. Only that she has lied in her past. And hasn't everyone? At some point? Lied in their past?
Strauss-Kahn will never see the inside of a courtroom because he is powerful and he is a billionaire and our legal system is designed by THEM to imprison US .... not the other way round.
He will be in Paris by week's end raping kids in France with Roman Polanski.
Fake but accurate?
There are differences with the Duke case... firstly, the guy tried to flee. Since he tried to run, it's appropriate to hold him. Sure people do not treat an accused person as if they are innocent. The innocent until proven guilty thing is a legal fiction. Either they are guilty or they are not. So we take a "wait and see" attitude.
We can take a "wait and see" attitude while figuring that the accused is probably guilty and we can discuss the case while waiting on more information.
And look at the behavior of the prosecution in either case? How long has it been? I don't think that the Duke case, or the Tawana Brawley story either, compare to the Strauss-Kahn case. True enough, the "narrative" is class based, but did anyone *really* place themselves into a corner where they are forced to insist that a rape occurred even if it didn't? Does a reversal really warrant anything greater than a statement (as we've seen in comments here) that someone of poor character can still be raped? It's up to the prosecution to decide if the evidence is strong enough to prove an assault, and if they don't have a case they don't have one.
Did I actually read this?
Twice if you proofread it. Three times if you proofread it and then checked to make sure it was posted.
Freeman Hunt - "So you think it's a feature of French society, not a bug, that they would automatically dismiss poor people of no status and unknown reputation and automatically believe rich people of high status and terrible reputation."
It strikes me the French are less perverted on this than America...where we have been indoctrinated to think we must believe the word of a career criminal black thug over a cop, a 3rd World grifter with drug gang ties over a globally important financier with no criminal history, or a black whore with past false rape accusations over 46 young *stinking white scions of privilege*.
The US "system" looks fairly twisted compared to the French one. At least in that aspect.
Freeman Hunt,
So you think it's a feature of French society, not a bug, that they would automatically dismiss poor people of no status and unknown reputation and automatically believe rich people of high status and terrible reputation?
Yes.
Did I actually read this?
Yes.
"Oooh, baby, baby, it's a wild world,..."
Repeat after me, fiction is not presented as fact.
It does not start out its life with intent to deceive. Anything that does needs to be disposed of as tainted. There are other events that can be related that are either true or were crafted *and presented as* thought experiments.
nevadabob --
"I hope you are raped one day and nobody believes you."
Ass-wipe.
"Did I actually read this?"
Yes. And I mean it.
How else can Ann understand truly the evil that is faced by someone who is raped, with substantial physical and circumstantial evidence, but not be believed?
Remember, there is substantial physical evidence of a sexual encounter and plenty of circumstantial evidence including Strauss Kahns' attempted escape on an unplanned flight back to France.
I don't think Ann Althouse has the empathy she ought to have for this victim. It's disturbing. And shocking.
Hard to fathom.
And causes me to have to rethink my impression of her as a person.
It strikes me the French are less perverted on this than America...where we have been indoctrinated to think we must believe the word of a career criminal black thug over a cop, a 3rd World grifter with drug gang ties over a globally important financier with no criminal history, or a black whore with past false rape accusations over 46 young *stinking white scions of privilege*.
If that were what happened, but it isn't.
No one knew about the accuser's background before they dismissed her.
And causes me to have to rethink my impression of her as a person.
Maybe you should be more concerned about rethinking your impression of yourself as an empathetic being.
You shouldn't need a celebrity example of something bad happening to make you realize you shouldn't be an asshole.
Although I do hate when anecdotes are used to try to brow beat a huge group of people.
People who don't know any poor people cannot stand it when real poor people don't live up to their noble poor standards.
What, exactly, has been revealed in the last 24 hours that makes this case "not what it seemed?" What it has always been is--like most rape cases--a nasty set of he-said/she-said charges and countercharges. All the standard variations have been present from Day One; in fact, through his lawyers DSK has tried a few mutually inconsistent variations:
1. I don't know what you're talking about. I have an ironclad alibi.
2. What's that? You can prove that my alibi doesn't hold up? Oh, I remember now--it was an innocent misunderstanding of the semiotic significance of my exposed penis.
3. You say you've found my semen on her person? I can explain that: It was consensual sex.
4. She's a drug-dealing, phony-asylum-seeking, bitch. Every word that she has ever spoken was a lie.
I'm waiting for #5: She attacked me.
On the other side, we've got a hotel maid near hysteria over a claimed sexual assault by a guest.
1. Does she trick him into sex, then tell him she'll cry "rape" unless he gives her some cash on the spot? Er, no.
2. Does her pot-dealing boyfriend have one of his many criminal associates contact DSK about a possible quid pro quo in exchange for her recanting her story? Nothing about that in the Times or elsewhere.
3.??? Beats me. My imagination isn't as good as some of the fine commenters here, and I'm too naive and brainwashed by the feminazis to begin to fully comprehend the conniving ways of women.
Now, to anticipate the righteous invocation of the Presumption of Innocence, I'll state explicitly that if I were a juror I would take the maid's history of lying into account. OTOH, I would also take into account the other evidence. I don't see how anyone can conclude that this is now in the Tamara Brawley or Crystal Mangum realm just because of that shaky NYT story.
And I do mean story. Maybe it's an example of the deft use of innuendo to illuminate truth.
P.S. Synova, DSK did not "flee." He met his daughter for lunch after the alleged assault occurred. Prosecutors are examining video of that luncheon to try to read DSK's body language. Somehow I doubt that will hold up in court, but IANAL.
Shanna,
I do hate when anecdotes are used to try to brow beat a huge group of people.
Let a crowd of French people chase you from an ATM and you might change your mind about that.
Freeman Hunt,
People who don't know any poor people cannot stand it when real poor people don't live up to their noble poor standards.
Oh, boy, is that true. Conversely, to flip it around, I recently made friends with a rich white guy who, two weeks ago, said he was amazed I'm "nothing like what he expected" of a black person. Then, yesterday, he confessed he used to be a pimp.
"Oooh, baby, baby, it's a wild world,..."
Margaret Atwood: The Handmaid's Tale
God that book was stupid!
Freeman, you completely misinterpreted my remarks.
In the traditional societies, like the Philippines and France, men are thought to have value. Even women will step forward to protect men out of sheer loyalty.
That tradition has been destroyed in America. Men are completely disposable, at the whim of women.
She's a drug-dealing, phony-asylum-seeking, bitch. Every word that she has ever spoken was a lie.
Yes, this is true.
Why do you regard it as some sort of sophistry?
"I am surprised at Althouse touting the value of a lie told by what the faction behind it believes is a LIE TOLD IN NOBLE CAUSE."
I'm not touting. I'm posing a question for discussion. Don't assume you know what side I'm on. It's a question for a reason, but not necessarily because I'm pushing the point that is posed in the form of a question. Don't be tricked. It really is a question.
Chip, it's just normal for people to assume that a person who lies habitually is an habitual liar.
Usually, they're right.
It's true that every word she has ever spoken is a lie?
Are you serious? That follows as a consequence of what, exactly?
ST, I already agreed that her dishonesty about other things should count against her credibility. I just don't agree that it proves that DSK is innocent.
I just don't agree that it proves that DSK is innocent.
This is not the measure of U.S. justice. People don't have to prove that they are innocent.
I've already stipulated that DSK is undoubtedly one hell of a horse's ass.
In response to Althouse's question, I think that the French self-examination was triggered more by the revelations of the respectable French women who came forward to tell their stories of DSK's seduction techniques. And apparently some French men were moved to reflect upon their own tendencies.
That's a far cry from Al Sharpton proclaiming that Tawana Brawley's proven lies helped us focus on the greater social problem of Racism in America.
ST, I don't know what your hypothesis has to do with this case. Are you saying that it's great if people just automatically believe men over women rather than treating them equally?
The reflection wasn't over the actual incident. It wasn't over the, some allege, lie.
The reflection was over the reaction to the allegations.
So even if the allegations turn out to be false, the reactions happened. They are true. The French should be doing some soul-searching if their reaction exposed that they assume poor or black people are to be automatically ignored.
Strauss-Kahn just proves the justice you can buy with political chits. And, money.
The maid, by the way, didn't receive hundreds of thousands of dollers from drug dealers. Who are always on the lookout for easy ways to launder their money.
You know how you can judge this one? Being a maid is not something you do if you hit the lottery. Or if you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in your bank account!
Just "bought" is not well served.
I pity the maid who had to lie on her amnesty application. Because she really wants to stay in the USA. Even if it means working as a chamber maid.
The IMF, to boot, is the most corrupt institution in the world. It floats around on french shit and UN financial incentives ... Where it's the American taxpayer that's raped so easily. And, with ease.
You know the greeks want more of our money, now, too, don't cha?
First class hotels are so careful in whom they hire. This woman worked at this fancy hotel for 3 years. Do you know how much jewelry she saw lying around? The sable coats and designer dresses casually tossed on beds?
You go ahead and judge a woman negatively ... but I still trust her.
However, between the prosecutor's office. Cuomo's office. And, the money sparing no expense for DSK to get off the hook ...
I wouldn't be surprised that the prosecutors were looking for payoffs. That's why they put DSK on Rikers. And, then along came a judge ... slipped in a key ... Will probably win a free trip to france. And, set bail.
The NY Post saw headline gold.
All this before Anthony Weiner's putz came along.
The maid? Wow. There'd be no contest if all she had to do was best a politician.
What price to malign a maid? To a journalist? Are you serious?
Journalists are hacks. But they are hacks who wouldn't be caught dead lifting mattresses all day long, to earn a living.
Hacks just lie. But there are fewer of them, these days.
The supply of poor honest folk who'd lift mattresses? We've got millions of people who will apply for that job! It's the economy, stupid.
This is not the measure of U.S. justice. People don't have to prove that they are innocent.
Nobody, AFAIK, is ready to send DSK to prison just yet. The issue that we've been discussing since last night is the extent to which the nature of this case has been radically transformed by the NYT story. The maid's prior lies surely raise the evidentiary bar for DSK's conviction, but they don't seem to require that the charges be dropped.
There seems to be a lot more innuendo than fact in that story. Pretty much par for the course in the Times, isn't it?
Today's thesis from our beloved Professor is of interest to me. When the sole source of information we use to judge people in a far away place is fiction, then our minds get set in concrete. It worked for the abolitionists fighting the south who believed Uncle Tom's Cabin was facts. We still get amused when a northerner moves here and is shocked to discover that southerners are nice people who actually wear shoes. This rape case is a Great and Terrible battle in the current culture war between European/Roman Empire culture and Scots-Irish American culture. The Euroweenies suddenly all see a need for them to come over here to escape their Muslim invasion,so suddenly they want to "Civilize" the classless way Americans function. And the International Socialist Conspiracy that holds our Presidency now is actively assisting them. (I forget, is Obama a natural born American?) I trust NYC will make an intelligent decision. NYC has after all been our de facto Capital City, even though our monuments are displayed in a district place in Virginia and Maryland.
Besides its utter absurdity what I enjoyed the most about the Weiner scandal was its satisfying resolution. The facts overtook the liberal narrative. How often do you get to see that?....I don't anticipate any such clear resolution in the DSK or Prosser case. This thread will go on for as long as forever is. Elderly liberals still believe in the innocence of Alger Hiss and, on the other side, it took three generations for the anti-Deyfusards to accept the innocence of Dreyfus.
How often do you get to see that?
And so quickly too. I attributed this to yet another supposedly "savvy" person falling victim to old world, ie pre-internet, thinking. As they say, sunlight is best disinfectant. Both sides are learning that to their mutual chagrin, but the left stands to loose more due to their usual modus operandi. They simply don't control the conch any longer.
So, was Strauss-Kahn set up by his enemies in France, the IMF, or whatever, or did he and his friends in France, the IMF, or whatever, now engineer his relase by smearing the poor maid?
DS-K won't become president of France, and he is already out of the IMF, so now what? Down the memory hole, or we stand by for further developments?
Wv: padma - what happend to DS-K?
Human caused Global Warming has been promoted by lies. What was the result of that? How many people excused blatant untruths on the basis of "it's for a good cause?" What was the result of that?
I once talked to a PETA member friend and complained about an unfactual Humane Society magazine article that was nothing but emotional manipulation (about baby chicks that "would never know a mother's love). Her response was that, yeah, that sort of manipulation was pretty stupid, but it was for a good cause.
I once complained to a Christian friend about an incident where a preacher had used a story that was untrue (Reno had never been on Donohue) about how the government was out to get Christians. I actually approached the preacher afterwards and told him the story was an internet fable. It was far outside my comfort zone and was expecting my friend to tell me what I'd done was brave and important but she said, "But that's what they really think," as if Truth didn't matter.
Fiction allows us to frame and examine questions and it's useful. I didn't think that Althouse was promoting fiction. When does she do that? In any case, fiction identifies itself as fiction.
In cases where a lie is presented as truth it's not the same thing as fiction and turning around when one is found out and saying that it is, that fiction can be important is pretty nasty, actually.
Truth matters. It matters in AGW. It matters when it comes to advocacy like PETA. It matters when it comes to race relations. It certainly matters when it comes to criminal cases. It matters when it's some guy in a pulpit talking about Janet Reno.
As someone mentioned... nothing improved over the old Tawan Brawley story. No "good" was done. No one was reconciled. What "insights" were made that were good? Wasn't there at least one person who died? Hatred was fanned and distrust grew. The worst sort of people were given national prominence and racial conflict became more of a professional pass time than ever.
Truth and Justice have to be blind or what are they good for? In the Duke case the rush to judgment and the lie means that we're less likely to believe the poor against the rich. When Strauss-Kahn was arrested those in France were upset over the difference in status... a powerful person (I don't suppose it needs to be a man) vs. a servant. When OJ was arrested the defense portrayed him as a black man rather than a rich man and black people cheered on the principle of the thing, that for ONCE the poor oppressed black guilty man got off scott free instead of the rich privileged white guilty man going free.
Trust in the blindness of Justice isn't something that can go without constant care and reinforcement. Making excuses for the lies, that they're important or the cause is good or that we learn something from them, somehow, is actively damaging to society.
I hope I've managed to explain just a little bit why "that seems terribly wrong" to me.
"I recently made friends with a rich white guy who, two weeks ago, said he was amazed I'm "nothing like what he expected" of a black person. Then, yesterday, he confessed he used to be a pimp."
Man, I don't even remember that meeting. We must have had a damned good time. I hope I maintained, and didn't need you hold my hair back.
The plot thickens - or not.
There is an article on Drudge that says Christine Lagarde, the French foreign minister who now will head the IMF, used to be head of a big-league law firm in - where else - Chicago!
Fiction argues a point.
Fabricated "facts" claim a point is true, and usually then use it to "prove" other "facts", or to win benefits and concessions.
There's a serious moral difference.
Even if there is a resolution to the case, no one will believe it. DSK is very rich. The maid is poor, and she has a problematic case. What if some relative in Africa tells her that if she drops the charges and comes home to Africa, she will in luxury for the rest of her days. Everyone in this case would then have in interest in dropping the charges. That includes the NYT and the DA's office. Working class solidarity? Never seen it. The international brotherhood of rich people? Well, you don't see that every day either, but, in cases like this, rich people really hang together.......Question: I have never stayed in an expensive hotel. Are the housekeeping staff in such places chosen for their good looks? The Holiday Inn experience has never fueled any sexual fantasies re the housekeeping staff. I saw pictures of DSK's hotel suite. Is one of the perks of a $3000 room that you get to hang around good looking people.
I do hate when anecdotes are used to try to brow beat a huge group of people.
Let a crowd of French people chase you from an ATM and you might change your mind about that.
Personal stories are always worth more to us.
Dominique Strauss-Kahn's alleged victim gave false testimony to a grand jury, omitting the fact she cleaned another room before alerting a supervisor of her claims of sexual assault, prosecutors revealed Friday.
"The complainant has since admitted that this account was false and that after the incident in Suite 2806, she proceeded to clean a nearby room and then returned to Suite 2806 and began to clean that suite before she reported the incident to her supervisor," they said in court filings.
================
Yet for so many YOU MUST ALWAYS BELIEVE THE WOMAN! BELIEVE HER BECAUSE A FEAMLE VICTIM DESERVES IT AND WOMEN ALMOST NEVER LIE ABOUT SUCH THINGS!!!
The pathetic thing is it includes so many conservative men who associate doing what feminists and race/class/gender proponents want as pure conservative chivalry, defending the poor woman....
Hey, what if that woman was besides a grifter and money-launderer for a drug gang....also a whore with past false rape accusations?
THAT WOULD MAKE IT EVEN MORE VITAL TO BELIEVE THE WOMAN! BELIEVE HER! EVEN MORE IF SHE WAS A WHORE OR PAST FALSE RAPE ACCUSER - BECAUSE ALL THAT DOESN'T MEAN SHE WASN'T SAVAGELY ASSAULTED ON THIS OCCASION. ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, SHE IS A VICTIM OF EITHER THE MAN OR SOCIETAL FORCES!!
KEEP THE MAN IMPRISONED UNTIL THE BIG TRIAL STRAIGHTENS EVERYTHING OUT. AND IF THE BASTARD EVIL PENIS POSSESSOR ACTUALLY IS ACQUITTED, HE STILL IS AT LEAST PARTIALLY AT FAULT FOR ALLOWING WHATEVER SITUATION HAPPENED TO HAPPEN...AND THEN WE MUST THINK ABOUT THE POOR WOMAN AND WHAT MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES OR PAST EMOTIONAL TRAUMA WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR HER CONDITION AND HOW WE CAN BEST COUNSEL AND HELP HER HEAL AND MOVE PAST THIS UNFORTUNATE INCIDENT!
Obviously, this whole thing was engineered by the Obama administration in order to get their person in at the IMF so that when the Republicans refuse to raise the debt ceiling, Obama will still have an open line of credit at the IMF.
Dan Brown, call your office!
Fact is (and is allowed to be) stranger than fiction.
Because of this people claiming to be relating fact can relate events that seem improbable or even unreasonable and get a little extra leeway given them.
ST, I don't know what your hypothesis has to do with this case. Are you saying that it's great if people just automatically believe men over women rather than treating them equally?
Freeman, you're lost in the world of legalism that is the U.S. Not all societies look at things this way.
What I said is exactly what I meant. In the U.S., men are thought to be disposable. They should voluntarily sacrifice themselves out of chivalry. If they won't do this, well, we expected the authorities to sacrifice them arbitrarily.
In the traditional societies that I am familiar with, men are thought that have great value. Men do not get sacrificed to the altar of legalism and "fairness" in the traditional societies out of chivalry.
Another way of saying this is that in the traditional societies of, say, the Philippines or France, people generally don't give a shit about feminism. If you interpret that as an issue of "fairness," be my guest.
I don't see it in those terms.
bagoh20,
Man, I don't even remember that meeting. We must have had a damned good time. I hope I maintained, and didn't need you hold my hair back.
LOL. There's more to that story, that's just as wild, but the guy has become a friend of mine so I won't go there. My black friends have already suggested I beat him up. Seriously, how'd you like to have my life?
Shanna,
Personal stories are always worth more to us.
Glad to hear it. I don't recognize the France everyone admires. The France I lived in, and I lived all over it, is elitist, racist, sexist, small-minded, backward, and mean. How it's maintained it's current reputation - cue the accordion music - considering the reality is beyond me.
I still say the only film the really captures the place, even today, is Jean de Florette (and it's companion Manon of the Spring). In it, you can see the charm, but you also can't miss the evil - and it was made by a French director, specifically, so we can know his country.
Personally, I don't care for the media re-write, because - just like the lies the French tell about us - what we're told doesn't capture the good, or the good people, over there either.
Emily Litella
THAT WOULD MAKE IT EVEN MORE VITAL TO BELIEVE THE WOMAN! BELIEVE HER! EVEN MORE IF SHE WAS A WHORE OR PAST FALSE RAPE ACCUSER - BECAUSE ALL THAT DOESN'T MEAN SHE WASN'T SAVAGELY ASSAULTED ON THIS OCCASION. ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, SHE IS A VICTIM OF EITHER THE MAN OR SOCIETAL FORCES!!
Except that no one is arguing that.
Carol Herman said, "
I pity the maid who had to lie on her amnesty application. Because she really wants to stay in the USA. Even if it means working as a chamber maid."
Carol has a soft heart under that feisty exterior. Anybody else want to set her up with Crack?
Palladian's a gay activist?
Gee, I always viewed him as someone who is open about his sexuality, is willing to voice his opinions about public policies as they relate to gay men (i.e. SSM), isn't a "prude" when discussing matters of sex
but
is otherwise pretty conservative/libertarian and most concerned about his art.
Someone needs to go back and read the "how not to appear crazy on the internet" instructions.
It's incredibly hard to get amnesty to stay in the United States. I had a friend who came to the US for college, and while he was in school his father was murdered by political opponents. Even he has had a horrendous time with the immigration system.
That's why you get lies on amnesty applications.
It's a stretch to put that on par with a false rape allegation. She didn't falsely accuse any specific people of rape. She said that she had been raped to bolster her application for amnesty. One may not like that, but it's hardly the same as filing a false charge against another person.
fiction as litigation
This is good but still not as good black robe mud wrestling in Madison.
On another note I thought C4s commentary on the American justice system was pretty damn good. OJ walks, DSK is gonna walk, and Cory Maye, after spending 10 years in prison for protecting his home, is finally going to get out of prison.
Your American justice system, professor, as Cedarford notes, is pretty fucked up.
It's a stretch to put that on par with a false rape allegation. She didn't falsely accuse any specific people of rape. She said that she had been raped to bolster her application for amnesty. One may not like that, but it's hardly the same as filing a false charge against another person.
Yeah, but courts are about legalities and technicalities, not rationalizations.
What strikes me more is that her "fiance" is dealing in pot in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now, I'm in favor of legalizing pot. But, it isn't legal now.
I've known plenty of people who dealt drugs on all levels. People who deal drugs on a high level are usually into all kinds of shit. So, I'm inclined to believe that further investigation of the woman and her fiance will produce even more damning shit.
And, I don't buy the notion that her boyfriend is into it and she isn't. That, in my experience, is never true.
I wonder which party will have the advantage if DNA evidence leaves no doubt that Frenchy's sperm was deposited in maid's vagina, clearly advantage maid, but maid's taped conversation reveals plot to blackmail Frenchy, Frenchy's advantage. Will Frenchy's defense: the sex was consensual and you can't trust the word of a would be blackmailer that it was rape, overide the DNA evidence and maid's cry of rape by a rich powerful oppressor white male on a poor black female victim? I don't know. Thoughts on the odds?
If that seems terribly wrong to you, explain why, when we consume works of overt fiction — novels and movies and so forth — we feel that we derive insights applicable to the real world. I think some fictions resonate. They seem to speak to real life.
The applicable words here are "real world" and "real life". If you think that certain stories speak to real life when in fact they do not, then you are not deriving insights, you are asking people to tell you lies which you find pleasant. For instance - as much as the left in America would like to believe otherwise, white men raping black women is a very rare and unusual crime in real life.
And this is the case with most of the "insights" which the left derives from fictional stories. What they are actually doing is seeking out fictitious conformation for their own biases.
ricpic: good summary. I do not as a matter of principle go on
"feminist" blogs, but it would be interesting to know what they are saying. (I suspect I know)
Phil 3:14,
Palladian's a gay activist?
Gee, I always viewed him as someone who is open about his sexuality, is willing to voice his opinions about public policies as they relate to gay men (i.e. SSM), isn't a "prude" when discussing matters of sex
but
is otherwise pretty conservative/libertarian and most concerned about his art.
I agree - Palladian? Upstanding guy. Which is why I want to hear his answer to my question:
What is the relationship between gays, their aims, and the truth?
And please, let's not get hung-up on (or play games about) semantics, just answer the question.
This DSK saga, with it's flawed characters, will make one hell of an opera. John Adams/Alice Goodman are probably already on it. Dominique at the Sofitel
lol...on the first pass I read that as John Goodman as Alice Adams. I'm sure John can do a passable Hepburn. Hopefully without all that head-on-a-slinky stuff.
as much as the left in America would like to believe otherwise, white men raping black women is a very rare and unusual crime in real life.
Rare in America, maybe (rare doesn't mean never), but in France? Who the heck knows.
There are too many coincidences in this case. I do not mean about the rape. That too sounds sketchy. But there are too many other coincidences.
Look at the time line:
Wednesday: Christine Lagarde is named head of IMF, effective July 5.
Thursday: The DA announces that the case has fallen apart.
Friday: DSK is essentially set free. Yes, he is still on his own recognizance but has no bail. If he skips over the July 5 weekend, who will notice?
Christine Lagarde: She is the French Finance Minister but spent more than a third of her life and most of her career in Chicago as managing partner of a huge multi-national law firm McKenzie-Baker.
She was there from about 1980 to a bit after 2000 or more than 20 years.
What are her connections to Obama during that time? To Rahm Emmanuel? Valerie Jarrett? Other Obama cronies?
The DA is the DSK case is, wait for it, Cyrus Vance. Not Cyrus Vance the elder, LBJ fixer/bagman, carter Sec State but his son.
I learned of the LaGarde Chicago connection 3-4 weeks ago from the No Agenda podcast www.seanhannity.com and did some research. One of the things I found, I forget where now, is that McKenzie Baker does a lot of business with Libya.
There are just too many coincidences for me to get my head around. If we had any press in the US not in the tank for Obama, perhaps someone would look into this.
So far not a word. The only thing I have seen is a Drudge link to the Chinese news agency mentioning that LaGarde has Chicago connections but not saying anything about what they are.
John
Shanna,
Rare in America, maybe (rare doesn't mean never), but in France? Who the heck knows.
My general rule for France is that, whatever we're doing, they are doing the opposite:
We are red, white and blue - they are blue, white and red.
We are innocent until proven guilty, they are guilty until proven innocent.
We like big cars, they drive those little dinky things.
They charged us with racism, if we didn't elect a black president, while they have no black politicians - anywhere - but consider themselves pure as the driven snow on race.
And so on. In all of my travels, they are the country I have found to not only be the most inconvenient, but also the most in denial - a state which I would characterize, in both cases, as extreme - and, I think, the Second World War was partially responsible for that (they still suffer from a siege mentality) as well as our own willingness to go along with them in indulging it.
As far as DSK is concerned, the idea that what he is charged with is/was plausible, should tell you everything you need to know about France:
They haven't changed that much from their colonial days.
"People who don't know any poor people cannot stand it when real poor people don't live up to their noble poor standards."
What Freeman Hunt said.
Although I don't blame the prosecutors - this case would have been very difficult to prove in any case.
The prosecutors are right to judge that a jury conviction would be impossible if this prosecutrix is not above reproach.
So Obama can be called a dick after all. That's a relief.
Canuck - "Although I don't blame the prosecutors - this case would have been very difficult to prove in any case.
The prosecutors are right to judge that a jury conviction would be impossible if this prosecutrix is not above reproach."
--------------------
And the prosecutors would be even "more right" not to prosecute if they have concluded that the woman is a lying whore. Somewhere, in the back of their minds, a little whisper of "think what happened to Michael Nifong" is starting.
Crack Emcee: They [the French] haven't changed that much from their colonial days.
There was an eye-opening, and damning, article in the London Times a year or so ago on France’s responsibility for the sad mess that is Haiti; see here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article6995750.ece.
Couple of highlights:
In the 18th century, Haiti was France’s imperial jewel, the Pearl of the Caribbean, the largest sugar exporter in the world. Even by colonial standards, the treatment of slaves working the Haitian plantations was truly vile. They died so fast that, at times, France was importing 50,000 slaves a year to keep up the numbers and the profits.
Inspired by the principles of the French Revolution, in 1791 the slaves rebelled under the leadership of the self-educated slave Toussaint L’Ouverture. After a vicious war, Napoleon’s forces were defeated. Haiti declared independence in 1804.
and
France did not forgive the impertinence and loss of earnings: 800 destroyed sugar plantations, 3,000 lost coffee estates. A brutal trade blockade was imposed. Former plantation owners demanded that Haiti be invaded, its population enslaved once more. Instead, the French State opted to bleed the new black republic white.
In 1825, in return for recognising Haitian independence, France demanded indemnity on a staggering scale: 150 million gold francs, five times the country’s annual export revenue. The Royal Ordinance was backed up by 12 French warships with 150 cannon.
The terms were non-negotiable. The fledgeling nation acceded, since it had little choice. Haiti must pay for its freedom, and pay it did, through the nose, for the next 122 years.
I’ve never seen any follow-up to this article, not even an allusion to it. How to account for the ability of France to avoid such bad PR?
Even though it was long ago, I remember someone I liked very much, recommending to me to read Mario Puzo's The Godfather. (This was before it became a movie.)
The first chapter deals with a wonderful law abiding man ... coming into the Godfather's home. On the day of his daughter's marriage. Because to ask him for anything, means he will do it.
The man says his daughter was raped. And, he wanted the men who did this, punished.
You know, I closed the book, and threw it across the room! I said this is impossible! A decent man would go to the police!
Ah. But I no longer would say this. I can see how we've crapped on our justice system. Because going to the police, when your daughter got raped, would be a waste of time.
You know, I feel very sorry for this maid. So hard working! So worried that she'd lose her job! Terrified by going into a room that was supposed to be vacant. And, cleaned up for the next guest. When DSK jumps out naked. And, slams the room's open door SHUT!
Perhaps, it's easy to hurt a woman who complains she's been raped. And, the semen of the man is on (or in) the woman.
It's also easy to go after her status as a US citizen.
WRONG! Well, that's obvious!
Dropped on a slow news day? Well, you think the judge is proud of doing this?
You think the IMF doesn't rape taxpayers as well?
You think this poor maid has any recourse?
I don't.
And, I've thought for the longest time that Mario Puzo told a very sad story. Just when we should have been kicking the mafia in the balls.
I nver thought I'd say this. But now I think joining the mafia is a better bet than going to law school.
Sorry, I'm not going wading to see what's been said here before, but anyone who isn't suspicious about this stunning (stunning!) turn of affairs isn't sufficiently paranoid.
If DSK really is innocent of rape, I'm glad he's going free; I have no doubt that a man of his means will land on his feet, especially in France.
But mostly I feel sorry for the maid. I don't see where she could possibly have benefited from making up the charges (at least making them up and then going to the police) where it's obvious how damaged she could be if, no matter the truth, the case could somehow be flipped.
That happened to me in the early internet days with one drama queen after another vying for attention. I then applied those lessons IRL.
You soon come to realize that pretty much all of life, definitely 99 percent of the media, is just one huge troll.
I haven't heard anyone bring up the "Third World people are used to the police being on the other side" gambit to excuse her lies.
Make of the evidence what you want.
The maid was on the floor cleaning rooms. What made her think rough sex had gone in in DSK's room? (A maid can usually ascertain what happened before she came to clean.)
Then, supposedly she walks from room to room. Doesn't mean she wasn't mugged.
What gets more interesting, though, is the time line.
Because the guy from room service has to pass the maid in the hallway.
And, the maid has to get hysterical for an hour. Before words come out anyone can comprehend. She is taken to a local hospital. Which means the ambulance has to arrive. (How much time between the call and its arrival?)
The police are there.
DSK has lunch with his daughter at a very famous, expensive, french restaurant. Somewhere along the way, he loses his cell phone.
The cops have no idea where he is.
The maid has no idea the guest can be found, although she knows he's no longer at the hotel.
Once this becomes front page news, over in paris, a gorgeous young female comes forward and accuses DSK of being a pig.
Is that what the maid saw?
Was the room left looking like a pig sty?
Why would someone lying want to go to a hospital where a strange doctor has you get undressed. And, part of the exam includes an vaginal? You don't think women's knees knock together when this exam is done? HELLO.
Some people prefer going to the dentist. Rather than having a pap.
And, then, of course, the lost cell phone, has DSK telephoning the front desk. Asking if his cell phone had been found? (Did he think the maid, cleaning the room, would find it?) It wasn't there, ya know?
The police lied. And, told the hotel's front desk to say they'd return the phone, if only he would tell them where to go.
He didn't say "go to a mailbox and send it to me." Even though DSK had six other cell phones! Guy had a cell phone for every pocket! If they all went off at once, he'd sound like Santa Claus.
Probably maids get raped every day. But it's not usual for these rapes to be reported.
Maids must be taught "It's all in a day's work." No?
You know, I feel very sorry for this maid. So hard working! So worried that she'd lose her job! Terrified by going into a room that was supposed to be vacant. And, cleaned up for the next guest. When DSK jumps out naked. And, slams the room's open door SHUT!
Nice of you to write a novel, Carol.
Too bad, you have no idea what really happened.
Carol always writes a novel and the title is always either Without Rhyme Or Reason, or, Verbal Diarrhea.
I hope you are raped one day and nobody believes you. [...] And I mean it.
You are foul. And I mean it.
Crappy title, Professor. "What if you soul-searched over an event that -- you learned later -- didn't happen?"
But "didn't happen" is scarcely the same as "can't be proved beyond a reasonable doubt," isn't it?
Has anyone considered DSK's marriage is just the kind of thing Dan Savage was condoning?
Cyrus Vance is a worthless piece of shit and Manhattan deserves him as their DA.
Even a whore can be raped. So what if she lived a fucked up life and is out there on the edge. They have the evidence and they should proceed. Let a jury decide. I bet if he gets bail he is gonna skip town. If they have their doubts they should give him bail and see what happens. I bet he is on the next fucking frogmobile out of town.
Cyrus Vance is a worthless limousine liberal criminal coddling cocksucker who should be impeached.
I don't know what happened but you know what? I kinda believe the maids story. This frog fuck has done this shit before. Just because she is sketchy is any reason to stop the presses. What if this fucking frog scumbag took out his dick and tried to stick it in a homeless woman? Just because the woman was a drug addict and lives on the street this frenchy fuck gets a pass? Fuck that. Nail his fucking froggy balls to the wall.
Fuck that. Nail his fucking froggy balls to the wall.
I've always admired your judicious temperament, Trooper.
Sorry Shouting. I just hate French people.
Crack;
What is the relationship between gays, their aims, and the truth?
That's not asking much, is it?
Did you want Palladian to weigh in on quantum theory while he was at it?
Recommend everyone read this:
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/07/01/manhattan-da-strauss-kahn-accuser-cried-when-telling-us-story-of-earlier-phony-rape/
We still get amused when a northerner moves here and is shocked to discover that southerners are nice people who actually wear shoes.
WTF? Next you'll be telling that you and your spouse don't have grandparents in common, on both sides.
The things you learn on the internet.
Perhaps the maid has a shady past and an unsavory boyfriend ... although I haven't seen any verified facts, just assertions in the New York Times. But I haven't seen any evidence that she wasn't raped, and the police have reported evidence that corroborates her story. So it's all still up in the air, he said/she said, and people are judging her reliability to be poor.
But ... DSK is a very powerful, very wealthy dignitary. And we do have an example of how New York prosecuting attorneys treat another powerful, wealthy man who is accused of sexual assault ... even when he admits that he raped the victim: five days' community service.
Oh, and he was allowed to leave the country. How much do you want to bet that he'll come back to New York for the civil trial?
Forget it, Jake -- it's Manhattan.xilielis
Why in the world would she voluntarily tell the DA's office that she'd lied about the earlier gang rape incident in her home country?
Money and power is at work here. Maybe the maid is some sophisticated bribery artist. Maybe she's gotten her money and will disappear.
Maybe she's just batshit crazy. But then, batshit crazy generally doesn't get it together to get any kind of visa, unless they happen to be applying for postdoctoral fellowships.
Whatever, I wouldn't be underwriting any short-term life insurance policies for the woman.
... and Blogger is acting flaky again.
Carol always writes a novel and the title is always either Without Rhyme Or Reason, or, Verbal Diarrhea.
I for one rather enjoy her comments. She's a little histrionic at times, and some of her allusions are so recondite that they're worthy of Dennis Miller, but she's generally entertaining and she often has a point worth making.
And we don't know how often she pinches her loaves, or quite a few other things that are better left unmentioned. So things could be a lot worse.
Crack asked Palladian:
What is the relationship between gays, their aims, and the truth?
Which gays?
Which aims?
Which truths?
Are women more honest than men? Are black people more admirable than white people? Are Russians more stoic than Swedes?
I don't know how anyone could honestly answer any of those questions without writing a book ... and even then, it would be wrong.
murgatroyd666,
Crack asked Palladian:
What is the relationship between gays, their aims, and the truth?
Which gays?
Which aims?
Which truths?
Are women more honest than men? Are black people more admirable than white people? Are Russians more stoic than Swedes?
I don't know how anyone could honestly answer any of those questions without writing a book ... and even then, it would be wrong.
This is exactly the kind of bullshit hair-splitting I specifically asked you dickheads not to indulge in. Jesus, how in the world do you people ever talk to each other? I can be sitting around with my friends talking about almost anything and we'd never engage in such nonsense (to do so would automatically mean you'd never be invited back). Look, watch me do it:
Hey, Crack, what's the relationship between blacks, their aims, and the truth?
In the beginning it was pretty clear-cut, our goals for freedom jibed with the truth, pretty much exactly, but now? Post "Black Power" (which was a big mistake) it's a clusterfuck, mostly associated with, and identified by, a mixture of pandering and lies, to get whatever you can whether you need it or not. Which is a shame because there's still *some* needs out there.
Jeez. Some of you guys would be much more interesting people without the need for perfection - which you're never going to get with those sticks up your butts.
Just because the woman was a drug addict
It was marijuana. That shouldn't get you qualified as a "drug addict". It's not like she was on crack like certain NY Times columnists...
Mahmoud Abdel-Salam Omar...had originally been charged with sexual abuse, unlawful imprisonment, forcible touching and harassment.
He was sentenced to five days' community service, which Omar has already completed.
Damn. That's some bs.
The maid was employed at the hotel for 3 years.
All the maids at the hotel clean the hotel rooms so that the next hotel guests come into clean rooms.
And, yes. ALL maids, once they are inside a room, leave the door ajar.
This helps other guests find the maids when they want extra towels or pillows. They just look in from the hallways.
IF the maid stole anything, or sold pot. Or sold herself. She'd be fired.
Numero Uno. She was terrified of being fired.
While I'm willing to bet she was shell shocked! Does this mean she could have attempted to continue her day job after being raped? SURE.
Could she have attempted to clean another room before she broke down? SURE.
It seems the defense is trying to prove she cries at the drop of a hat. (John Boehner cries at the drop of a hat. He hasn't lost his job.) Bill Clinton cries at the drop of a hat. He never took any responsibility for schtupping cigars into an intern.
Huma was an intern at the same time. And, she's been employed ever since by Hillary.
Behind the scenes is not the same as the stuff we're shown when the actors come on stage and head for the limelight.
Now, if DSK were really innocent ... he would have been sprung before a "dead news cycle!"
It's only here ... which is part of the Internet ... that you see curious questions getting asked.
Can a lawyer besmirch a witness? Hell, they're sharks. They can go after a witness in broad daylight. And, when the call goes out "there are sharks in the water" everybody immediately runs to the safety of dry land.
Oh, now that DSK has been sprung ... the greatest danger remains to American taxpayers. Who are gonna get raped (and they're gonna see higher tax rates) ... because the IMF wants our money!
Having DSK in jail was a snag.
So a "slow news cycle" weekend. When there's only a skeleton crew answering phones at the New Yoke Times was actually ideal.
The maid's life was pretty bottom-of-the-barrel before this story broke.
While it seems Americans keep getting smeared for all those boats from Africa that contained slaves for sale.
But today's Africans want to come here nonetheless. Even though they're at the bottom of the barrel.
Which was never the problem for DSK!
It was only a matter of time before he was gonna get to live alongside Roman Polanski. In France and Switzerland. Laughing all the way to the bank (as Liberace used to say.)
Americans? Shell shocked. But not quite hysterical. They're apt to just try to keep on cleaning another room. Hoping the nightmare recedes.
We will probably see the debt ceiling lifted ... because the IMF also wants our money.
Kapish?
Kapish?
No.
Perhaps, Carol, you should go read the rules for not appearing to be crazy on the internet.
The only reason given for not prosecuting that has made any sense to me is the assertion that when testifying to the Grand Jury she left out the part about cleaning one more room after the rape and before breaking down and reporting the crime. The DA had to disclose that she had added that to her statements, and that this which would give the defense some ammunition on cross examination. But that amounts to the Gravitas of "expert idiots" prejudging the affect of a real person's live testimony in a courtroom given to a careful jury panel of 12 persons. So this looks more and more like a shameful fix that must have cost someone lots of money, not that lots of money matters today to our IMF rulers.
Jeez. Some of you guys would be much more interesting people without the need for perfection - which you're never going to get with those sticks up your butts.
Crack, I wasn't trying to give you bullshit answers. I was trying to point out that you were asking a bullshit question. And what you said, while something I generally agree with, is still bullshit ... because some black people are not all black people, some gays are not all gays, and so on.
Why don't you ask your question where gays hang out -- over at GayPatriot, for example? I'm straight, but I check them out every few days or so, because they often have interesting and surprising perspectives on things.
Carol_Herman...To me you are the most entertaining regular commenter to grace Althouse's blog sense Titus, Crack, Trooper, and Palladian. Whatever your mind thinks, please keep sharing it. Shouting Thomas is probably jealous. He also has a strong, talented voice but shares a very narrow point of view.
Traditionalguy, thanks for the compliment.
Also, let me share with you that people who get hurt ... can get shell shocked. Instead of collapsing, at first ... they actually try to return to a normal routine.
It doesn't surprise me that the rape took the maid by surprise.
It doesn't surprise me that a lot of victims aren't processing their surroundings.
If this wasn't true people wouldn't seek out martial arts training. Which would train them to have an advantage when mugged. Or attacked.
It seems, if I remember the story correctly, DS-K fought her to remove her pantyhose. And, when she finally freed herself ... she pushed him from being on top of her ... to flying across the room, into a piece of furniture, that "attacked his back!"
Then, she ran.
If she ran to "clean another room" ... she gave DSK time to flee. Given that he didn't check out. And, once out of the hotel ... went to lunch with his daughter. And, then to Air France, where he flies on standby. First class.
Easy for a lawyer to rip apart a witness?
Well, if it's not easy, they don't get to be first class defense attorneys.
You wouldn't want to tangle with a first class defense attorney in the "back alleys" of our court system. Better to just run. And, forget.
As I said, earlier. When I was given Mario Puzo's The Godfather to read. I shut the book in anger. And tossed it across the room! I couldn't believe a man of decency would go to the Godfather to get even with men who had raped his daughter! My thoughts, then, were GOOD PEOPLE GO TO THE POLICE!
Oh, yeah. I was also at Woodstock.
But then I grew up. I'm not even a big fan of the music, anymore.
Going to the police to report anything is a total waste of time. (Unless you need a police report number to report significant losses from your taxes.) "signficant" means you've suffered a loss qualifying as so terrible ... it's most of what you own.
You know. I wouldn't even want to have to identify a perp at a line up. I'd rather just curl up in bed and cry. Maybe, ask a doctor for some medication?
I feel so sorry for this maid, now, you have no idea.
Too bad that Mario Puzo got the rape scene, and the dad's reaction, just right. It makes me want to puke.
If we are getting the true story here, ie. there is good
evidence that this woman did indeed tell all the various
lies she has allegedly told, then I don't see how DSK can
possibly be convicted. And in fact I would consider it a
miscarriage of justice if he were convicted, even though
is also my gut-level intuition that this man did indeed
rape this woman.
Now how can I square these two sentiments? Because it's
not enough to think something is more likely than not
true. With a charge this severe, it's not even enough
to believe something is 90% likely to be true. We should
expect more than that. And since in the end everything
hinges on the veracity of her account, and since it's been
apparently been demonstrated that her word is of little
value, I couldn't in conscience convict and I don't
understand how others could in conscience convict.
murgatroyd666,
Crack, I wasn't trying to give you bullshit answers. I was trying to point out that you were asking a bullshit question. And what you said, while something I generally agree with, is still bullshit ... because some black people are not all black people, some gays are not all gays, and so on.
murg, when a guy specifically asks you not to do something - and you do it anyway - don't come back with a fucking bullshit excuse for why you did it.
We're just talking on a blog here - not writing international treaties. Any bullshit answer (with a dallop of truth) would do, you feel me? I thought I made that clear with my answer about blacks. As a matter of fact, you DID get it:
what you said, while something I generally agree with, is still bullshit ...
Of course it is, because - wait for it - we're just bullshitting! It's a "bull session." You just pull the stick out of your ass and fire away. None of this "some black people are not all black people, some gays are not all gays, and so on" because you know what?
WE KNOW THAT ALREADY!
Like I said, if you were hanging out with me and my friends, I'd be forced to have to defend you. I can hear it now:
"Naw, Mayne, naw - it's cool, it's cool - he's leavin', he's leavin'! Sit down, have another beer, I'm just going to walk him to his car. You - calm the fuck down! - I don't care if he does have 666 on his forehead, you leave him the fuck alone! Damn! Come on, murgatroyd, you gots to get the fuck outta here. I don't know why-in-the-fuck you had to go there,..."
Just startin' trouble over nothin'.
OK, Crack, I can work with that.
If we ever run into each other I'll buy you the beverage of your choice. Perhaps some organic ginseng tea that's been blessed by a genuine shaman?
[backing away cautiously but quickly]
[and yes, NewAge rhymes with sewage]
Well good. The tragedy is, I had put the Sinatra and Biggie album on to chill everybody out, too!
They may not be able to prosecute the alleged because the alleged victim has a boatload of (illegal?) baggage she was trying to avoid. And didn't do a good job at doing.
Which could and probably did have nothing to do with the alleged rape, but defense attorneys doing their jobs would be all over it and the alleged female victim would be demolished on the stand.
Think about it ... if it was consensual, why would she have reported *anything* if indeed she knew she needed to stay beneath the radar and be a good illegal immigrant or money launderer or whatever they found out she is (HIV positive?).
Gut feeling -- he did it.
But will be free to attack another day.
Gut feeling -- he did it.
But will be free to attack another day.
Why do I get the feeling that this will be a resume enhancer when he runs for President of France?
murgatroyd666,
Why do I get the feeling that this will be a resume enhancer when he runs for President of France?
Because you know, instinctively, it will be sold over there, on the down-low, as him beating America.
If there is a trial will the plaintiff be giving her testimony in French? And where will New York find 12 jurors who are peers to the next president of France?
"Did you want Palladian to weigh in on quantum theory while he was at it?"
I'd be much more comfortable weighing in on that subject than on some meaningless question about the mind of a demographic that doesn't really exist. There are no Gay People, just as there are no Black People. There are gay people and black people, and if you find a specific one, as him what he believes. But don't as me what he believes, nor vice-versa, because the answer will be bullshit.
This morning, The New York Post ran this story.
Maid Cleaning Up As a Hooker.
So much for the Damsel in Distress.
Allow me to draw a cinematic analogy to the DSK affair.
Near end of the elegiac lament to the passing of the old west, "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance," beloved U.S. Senator Ransom Stoddard (Jimmy Stewart) returns to his home town out west and confesses to the town's newspaper editor that his legendary reputation, in fact his entire career, was built on a lie. Until then, everyone believed that in his youth, Stoddard had shot and killed the notorious gunslinger Liberty Valance (played by Lee Marvin). Now, at long last, Stoddard is coming clean, telling the world that Valance was really shot by a tough-as-nails rancher played, of course, by John Wayne.
The newspaper editor, having heard the entire story and believing every word of it, is not interested in publishing any of it.
"You're not going to use the story?" Sen. Stoddard asks incredulously.
The editor famously replies: "No, sir. This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Old cowboys and feminists alike insist on printing the legend. Facts be damned.
I am very disappointed in this post, and in Prof. Althouse.
Pierce Harlan
False Rape Society
under that logic we should just rape every woman on the planet so that we can all have a "reflective moment," on the nature of state and condition of rape, rapists, victims, and the society at large!
to even ask that question is absurd and offensive. The very suggestion that a real crime perpetrated on any individual is good because we reflect on it like fiction is offensive and evil.
Moreover, the comparison between insights drawn through fiction and those drawn through life proves that the writer has a very poor grasp on reality, with no capacity to judge consequences or empathize with human beings.
Palladian,
I'd be much more comfortable weighing in on that subject than on some meaningless question about the mind of a demographic that doesn't really exist. There are no Gay People, just as there are no Black People. There are gay people and black people, and if you find a specific one, as him what he believes. But don't as me what he believes, nor vice-versa, because the answer will be bullshit.
I just called you a stand-up guy and you're gonna play this bullshit game, too?
Fine - be that way - see what it gets you in the long run.
"Fine - be that way - see what it gets you in the long run."
I know what being me has gotten me, and, from your writing at least, I know what being you has gotten you. I'll stay me and you stay you, OK?
They should still fry that fuckin' frog bastard under the Mike Tyson principle.....he might not have done that be he did a lot of shit so lets lock him up!
Palladian,
I know what being me has gotten me, and, from your writing at least, I know what being you has gotten you. I'll stay me and you stay you, OK?
I take back the "stand-up guy" claim - you're obviously an asshole just waiting for a chance to prove it. (There's something about me that always flushes you dickheads out - it's a talent.) Fuck you, Palladian. I was going to ask you to do a job for me and you want to strike this pose over a fucking question? You silly fag.
How some dicks think a bad episode can define my life interests me - another one is the charge that my divorce hasn't informed my views on women - I'm just a loser, and have always been a loser, and anyone who hears me honestly and openly talk about what's happened then has enough ammo to look down on me. You're dumber than shit.
Considering my life before that episode was better than most - and especially considering my life ain't over - I think you're in for a surprise. You keep on doing your silly comparison, Palladian, and I'll be sure to ask you to continue to do so as time marches on.
Now go suck a dick, or whatever the fuck it is you do, and leave me the fuck alone. If you want to pick a fight over something as silly as this, then I can accept I made a mistake about you and there will be no more compliments from me. I have never wanted to be anyone else, and I would certainly never want to be anything like you, you lowly belly crawling freak. You forget:
There's a reason I asked the question - and why you REALLY won't answer it - and I know both of them.
All you've done is live up it. When it comes to the level of honesty I exhibit, you and your kind can't handle it, except as a little bitch, and are ultimately not to be trusted. I shit on the very idea of you. If there's one thing I hate, it's dishonesty - you know that, too, from my writing - and your answer has that word written all over it.
You can run but you cannot hide.
Crack, that was great... for a while.
You were right about being able to talk without bullshitting too much about the niceties of the question, but isn't it equally wrong to completely freak out about somebody's resistance to your question. It seems to me that both approaches to conversation veer away from substantive discussion of what is interesting.
Ann,
What conversation? He knows what it's like to be me so he doesn't have to engage in a conversation.
Sure, I can take blacks to task and that's all good - because there are blacks - but gays are beyond reproach because A) there are no gays or B) whatever is said must apply to every stinking one of them - or else it's all bullshit. I'll stick with my assessment of Palladian from here on out:
Fuck him.
P.S.
I'm more pissed off because I was seriously going to hire him, next month, to do some work for me. But I have a very low threshold now-a-days for bullshitters, and he just proved he is one, so whatever. I've put up with too many idiots like that in the past - I got no time.
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