One of his assistants warns him he's going to get in trouble with the feminists, and he reacts:
No, no, no! Don't do that to me. Do not look at me that way. We're talking about the Muslim religion. We're not talking about feminized America. Even warning you, I got the reaction I was warning you not to bother me with. You know, it's suicide to tell a joke today about how a dirty place is because a woman won't clean it.
I'm not stupid enough to do that, but over there? What else do they do? You know, that and run around in the kitchen. That's exactly it. Osama had three of them over there, and the place is still a pigsty....
To live in squalor like that, it's almost a choice, but then to hear the President of the United States...
The President said "This guy was living in a million-dollar compound in a residential neighborhood," and the point Rush is trying to make is that the place was a mess:
I mean, for crying out loud, dirty windows, half eaten food on the floor, filthy clothes shoved under the unmade bed. I mean it looked worse than a teenage kids room. It looked like a crack house.
So why are the media (and the President) acting like it was a fabulous mansion? Rush's point is that they're building up OBL to amplify the President's achievement.
[But t]his guy huddled in a cheap blanket wearing a ski cap watching television in his big sty. He looks like a bum in a homeless shelter somewhere. And now... they are trying to convince us that he was in total charge of Al-Qaeda....
Rush is trying to minimize Obama's achievement, of course.
पोस्ट्स
१३८ टिप्पण्या:
Rush isn't minimizing Obama's achievement but rather saying that the media account is insane.
He's minimizing Obama's part in it, in other riffs, agaist other media claims.
Obama is a comic figure in all this, actually.
Obama is a sort of Inspector Clouseau with a national economic suicide instinct.
Rush is trying to minimize Obama's achievement, of course
Or....Rush is pointing out the truth that Osama was living in a squalid pigsty. The media wants to tell us lies, when our eyes can plainly see.
Maybe Osama's warped idea of humility and pious living was living in squalor.
Speaking Truth to Power used to be a good thing. Then, Change.
Rush is right 99.6% of the time. If you don't believe it he has the research to prove it.
That 99.6% may be inaccurate but he is dead on with his assessment of the squalid living conditions of Osama.
Yeah, really, one look at a photo of Osama's place, and you know the dollar has taken a beating if that hovel was worth a million. Who did the administration think they were kidding with that propaganda?
I thought the place was ransacked by the CIA and SEALS looking for intel stuff.
Then again, a house I lived long ago was burglarized. The cops came and asked, "Did they make this mess?" I had to answer "No."
"Rush's point is that they're building up OBL to amplify the President's achievement."
Does that make sense? Why is killing OBL an amplified achievement if the guy lived in a big house?
I think the size of this house separates OBL from average Muslims who live in backward countries. OBL lives in a big house--rather than a cave--while he tries to inspire other folks to do the actually fighting. This is an effort to knock down OBL, not to build him up.
The squalor, though, remains hard to understand. Can't think of a good reason. (Lem's reason doesn't work.)
The reason I want, of course, is polygamist squabbling; 'her kids made the mess, I'm not cleaning that up!' 'I cleaned yesterday; I'm not cleaning that up!'
But that's just wishing.
I seriously doubt that Rush was 'freaked' by the threat of a feminist response, as was posted over on Instapundit.
Rush makes his seemingly provocative statements with full knowledge of the possible PC (over) reaction. He thrives (and profits) on that reaction.
I take it you're not a fan.
DBQ: "The media wants to tell us lies, when our eyes can plainly see."
You mean you believe your lying eyes more than the media directs you to believe... after almost three years?
From the video of the outside, it reminded of a miniaturized version of the David Koresh compound. The feds did him too. A mansion? Hardly.
He was living in squalor, three wives notwithstanding. I suspect the wives had one duty and one duty only. Cleaning wasn't one of them.
He could got off his butt and cleaned it himself.
...it's suicide to tell a joke today about how a dirty place is because a woman won't clean it.
The largest protected class of them all.
More proof of Rush's irrational hatred for Obama. Remember this:
I Hope Obama fails
According the Wikipedia: "While the compound was assessed by US officials at a value of US$1 million, local real-estate agents assess the property value at US$250,000."
An unfortunate victim of the worldwide real estate bubble.
But still! The real sin here is the cost of storing all that squalor. Wouldn't the 9/11 mastermind rather having a sewing room or atrium instead of filthy clothes shoved under unmade beds?
What's the point of scrubbing the floor? When the drone lands it will just make a bigger mess.....Does it occur to anyone that Osama's wives lived in more squalor and terror than that little girl who was kidnapped and made to live in a back yard tent? If the wives were dispirited and too depressed to lift a broom, who can blame them? How would you like to spend your days living in two little rooms with a stud muffin like Osama? Plus, as noted above, there was the extra added attraction of living in a drone zone. It's always perplexing to ponder what feminists consider worthy issues. If Osama had come out in favor of late term abortions, I'm sure the feminists would have cheered him on.
I hope he (Obama) fails too. Geez, that's a no-brainer.
No, not the country. Just Obama's policies.
Anyone thinks McCain knew of this agreement mentioned in left wing Guardian (UK)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/09/osama-bin-laden-us-pakistan-deal
Alex;
From the link you provide:
I'm not talking about search-and-destroy, but I've been listening to Barack Obama for a year-and-a-half. I know what his politics are. I know what his plans are, as he has stated them. I don't want them to succeed.[...]
How is that 'irrational hatred'? If you believe that Obama's plans are bad for the nation, it follows you wouldn't want them to succeed.
And it's really hard to "minimize Obama's achievement" here, considering every - single - policy he's advocated since he was a junior Senator would have made Osama's demise unlikely if not impossible. I'd like to know what "Obama's achievement" was here beyond giving the go-ahead--sixteen hours after being told his options.
Squalor? I know from squalor, and what it means is that the guy wasn't into what he was doing, and that no one else was either.
When you don't keep up standards in your personal life it means you don't care enough to treat yourself like your important. And if you don't care, those who really aren't with you because they want to be can ignore their duties.
No Rush explicitly stated he hopes America FAILS so Obama won't get re-elected. Doesn't that rise to treason? High crimes?
It's about time to re-institute the Fairness Doctrine. Time to flush Rush.
How absurd.
Why would it matter if OBL was killed while living in luxury or killed while living in squalor? The fact that he was living in either was never part of the argument in the first place.
What is interesting is the place he lived in was larger than all the places around it. Therefore it was salient and - for what it is worth - probably cost a lot more than any place around it.
But it's not like the media is saying, "Give Obama extra points for killed this fabulously wealthy terrorist."
Time to bring back the Sedition Act and apply it first to Flush Limpballs. When he's sent up the river, he'll get himself plenty of company. Just don't drop the soap Rush...
bin Laden was irrelevant after Tora Bora; reduced to spending his life on the run, not unlike Josef Mengele.
Al Qaeda was destroyed in Iraq and Zawahiri has spent the last 5 years trying to rebuild - which may be why bin Laden had to go.
As always, El Rushbo nails it to the wall.
The use of the word achievement:
1. Oops, still not willing to own it that you're one of the rubes.
and/or
2. ISWYDT. Red meat to make the hillbillies go crazy (to make your guy look good by comparison).
or
3. Careless.
(to rearrange the popular saying) Nixon's achievement: we walked on the moon. Even I, a ten-year old, knew with clarity at the time, that Nixon's "phone call" to Aldrin and Armstrong, was unearned unseemly glory-hounding. The hunkering, confused and frightened little man in the corner achieved nothing.
Alex;
From the link you helpfully provided:
We're talking about my country, the United States of America, my nieces, my nephews, your kids, your grandkids. Why in the world do we want to saddle them with more liberalism and socialism? Why would I want to do that? So I can answer it, four words, "I hope he fails." And that would be the most outrageous thing anybody in this climate could say. Shows you just how far gone we are. Well, I know, I know. I am the last man standing.
You say Limbaugh explicitly said that he wanted the United States to fail. I challenge you to provide a quote.
I'm waiting.
Mess just more evidence that UBL was depressed about losing.
Sounds to me like Osama was living the frat boy's dream. I mean, a big TV, three women, and not caring about how messy the place is--that's how us guys want to live!
The place may be both squalid and cost a million dollars. When OBL went into hiding, and then when he apparently moved in there, a million dollars just wouldn't buy that much housing in a lot of places, at least here in the U.S.
Around here, someone may have a million in their property, but it turns out that they have 20 acres or so, and then a very modest house on it. The land is where the money is.
In OBL's case, the compound was not small, and had extra high walls around it. In other words, the money likely went for more, low quality, buildings, than what we usually see.
Oh, and maybe the cost included a little bribe money to keep his presence there secret. It is interesting that he was able to live so close to the Pakistani government, without us finding out through word of mouth, despite the large reward on his head (which apparently no one is going to get).
Obama's major achievement to date has been finding his "inner Bush".
edutcher
I'd say your view is hilarious and silly. It's like an argument made by a 12 years old after he loses a game. "Well the game wasn't important anyway...."
Not only are you minimizing the achievement of getting OBL you are minimizing the achievement of the SEALS, the military and the Intellegence community - to name but a few.
It must hurt for you to admit that sometimes Obama does the right thing. It must hurt for you to admit that Bush just couldn't get it done.
If Crack was awake he would say Rush is right ;)
I love the way this follows the "clutter" post.
I don't get impression that RL tries to "minimize Obama's achievement" as much as he criticizing administration handling of the related information (that so far was a mess), especially the snipets that in his opinion protect Usama's image.
I love the way this follows the "clutter" post.
We are getting to see how the Professor's mind works. (*nods thoughtfully*)
The Burka Broads Wouldn't Clean his Lair
Used Just for Men to Dye his Hair
Obsessed With his Plot List
The Pathetic Jihadist
Could Nary Draw a Breath of Fresh Air.
Buth with Coke, papsi and a natural viagra
http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2886/1/
All I can say is that I absolutely love watching all the good little liberals going "rah rah rah America!" because a President ordered a raid into a sovereign nation in order to assassinate someone, and kill a few bystanders in the process.
I bet Rusty was plenty pissed upon learning the news bin Laden was shot dead by our military.
Matt: It must hurt for you to admit that sometimes Obama does the right thing.
Nope. And in this case, it was Leon Panetta who did the right thing. Obama had to be dragged kicking and screaming from the golf course, hiding behind Valerie Jarret's skirt.
It must hurt for you to admit that Bush just couldn't get it done.
Obama is taking credit for work done by Bush. Obama only found OBL because of information gained from enhanced interrogation techniques.
It must hurt you Matt to admit that "torture" works.
I'm uninterested in Rush's motives.
But the idea that the place was a million-dollar mansion IS silly. Hell, at the height of the real estate bubble you could have purchased or built a house like that in an equivalent San Diego neighborhood (Ramona, say) for half a million at most.
"The president had been instructed by Jarrett to inform Mr. Panetta that he would have sole discretion to act against the Osama Bin Laden compound. Jarrett believed this would further delay Panetta from acting, as the responsibility for failure would then fall almost entirely on him. What Valerie Jarrett, and the president, did not know is that Leon Panetta had already initiated a program that reported to him –and only him, involving a covert on the ground attack against the compound. Basically, the whole damn operation was already ready to go – including the specific team support Intel necessary to engage the enemy within hours of being given notice.
Panetta then made plans to proceed with an on-ground assault. This information reached either Hillary Clinton or Robert Gates first (likely via military contacts directly associated with the impending mission) who then informed the other. Those two then met with Panetta, who informed each of them he had been given the authority by the president to proceed with a mission if the opportunity presented itself. Both Gates and Clinton warned Panetta of the implications of that authority – namely he was possibly being made into a scapegoat. Panetta admitted that possibility, but felt the opportunity to get Bin Laden outweighed that risk. During that meeting, Hillary Clinton was first to pledge her full support for Panetta, indicating she would defend him if necessary. Similar support was then followed by Gates.
The following day, and with Panetta’s permission, Clinton met in private with Bill Daley and urged him to get the president’s full and open approval of the Panetta plan. Daley agreed such approval would be of great benefit to the action, and instructed Clinton to delay proceeding until he had secured that approval. Daley contacted Clinton within hours of their meeting indicating Jarrett refused to allow the president to give that approval. Daley then informed Clinton that he too would fully support Panetta in his actions, even if it meant disclosing the president’s indecision to the American public should that action fail to produce a successful conclusion.
Clinton took that message back to Panetta and the CIA director initiated the 48 hour engagement order. At this point, the President of the United States was not informed of the engagement order – it did not originate from him, and for several hours after the order had been given and the special ops forces were preparing for action into Pakistan from their position in Afghanistan, Daley successfully kept Obama and Jarrett insulated from that order."
http://socyberty.com/issues/white-house-insider-obama-hesitated-panetta-issued-order-to-kill-osama-bin-laden/#ixzz1Ltuh3j1v
Let's take a look inside Rush's house. Pictures, please.
Is it possible the house was ransacked? And that's why it's so messy? Otherwise, seriously - why was the house so awful? Could be that he had been used to living in a cave.
Or maybe there's more to the story.
(And I agree, even from the outside, the house didn't look to be all that.)
The $1 Million calculation was done by the same guys the feds have come up with the "street value" of whatever drugs have been seized, burned, etc. After all, the media loves to reprint those numbers uncritically, so what could go wrong here?
I see Fentard has a fresh supply of winger talking points. In this case, a "White House Insider" dishes the goods.
poor little Garage
Three wives and still a pigsty? This reminds me of an old Russian saying, "A child with three mothers is neglected."
Are you certain that hatred of Obama is irrational?
Whatever his motive, Rush got off an hilarious take on the situation. Even a lib should get a chuckle out of "3 wives and the place is still a pigsty!" line. Jeez I could almost picture George Carlin or the lib suckup Jon Stewart using that that joke.
Fen
Nothing you wrote in your comment was true. Try again.
If Bush's 'enhanced tecniques' worked then why didn't they get OBL when they were doing 'enhanced techniques'? Oh, wait I forgot it's because Bush said he didn't spend
much time caring where OBL was. And why? Because he couldn't get him so he had to diminish his existence.
And so it is pretty easy to conclude if he didn't care about OBL then he certainly cannot take credit for getting him years after the fact.
Sorry but Obama has been president for long enough to take full credit for this. Why can't you just admit that? It's crazy. You guys have such hatred for Obama that you can't even give an inch of support. Some liberals did the same when it came to Bush - but I guess you didn't learn from that. You are just like the Daily Kos kids. Just as partisan, just as closed minded.
"I have been told by more than one source that Leon Panetta was directing the operation with both his own CIA operatives, as well as direct contacts with military – both entities were reporting to Panetta only at this point, and not the President of the United States. There was not going to be another delay as had happened 24 hour earlier. The operation was at this time effectively unknown to President Barack Obama or Valerie Jarrett and it remained that way until AFTER it had already been initiated"
That's a pretty funny joke but it takes a decent comedian to tell it. I didn't hear Rush's version so I can't say whether he pulled it off or not.
If Fen's sources are even partly accurate.......when will NYT or Woodward get to the bottom of it? Or will no one even touch this story?
Matt:
Nothing is true? How can you be so sure?
If Bush's 'enhanced tecniques' worked then why didn't they get OBL when they were doing 'enhanced techniques'?
The information gained under Bush is what led to CIA finding OBL.
Oh, wait I forgot it's because Bush said he didn't spend
much time caring where OBL was. And why? Because he couldn't get him so he had to diminish his existence.
Can you really be this stupid? Bush's point was that finding OBL wasn't going to be the magic bullet that killed Al Queda. Do you really believe that its all over now, simply because we bagged another one of their top guys?
"Alex said...
No Rush explicitly stated he hopes America FAILS so Obama won't get re-elected. Doesn't that rise to treason? High crimes?
It's about time to re-institute the Fairness Doctrine. Time to flush Rush.
5/9/11 5:55 PM"
You are lying. I listen to Rush every day, and you are lying. Your lies will probably fly on a lefty board. They won't fly here.
Here is a tip: If you have to lie to make your point, rethink your point.
"When you don't keep up standards in your personal life it means you don't care enough to treat yourself like your [sic] important. And if you don't care, those who really aren't with you because they want to be can ignore their duties."
Astute, yes. Pakis, Haqqanis and Zawahari felt this too, had no further use of him, betrayed him, let the op in/out of Paki airspace and did not oppose the ground time. Thus no huge world-wide rising as from a few cartoons, etc. Saud didn't want him around either. Moslem Brotherhood is his now victorious competitor ... and sponsor of the mole in the White House. Iran is otherwise conflicted internally.
Haqqani network owns the trucks and drivers that and who transpo supplies from Paki port to US troops in AFPAK. They also provide Taliban and AQ with training bases in AFPAK Pashtun area. Free market businessmen as much as Mohammedan imperialists. They control ground traffic inside Afghanistan, especially southern, through "check" (tax) points. Afghanistan has one road that girdles the country. Haqqani controls it. They control the roads/traffic into Afghanistan from Pakistan. They operate US supply line there. Parallels US enemy China as base of US daily material needs.
Every other player in the ME had as little want for maintaining UBL as his wives and he did. No heroic op. Opportunistic revenge with no strategic gain. Well, possibly from intel, but nothing geopolitical, no improvement in US lines of communication in/out of areas of operation. No compensating pump into US treasury/politics, as is usual in war. No reports of wives mourning. And the parties who betrayed/allowed the betrayal of UBL are enemies waiting to betray one another to the big kid on the block, the so-called Great Satan. The Mohammedan "street" is chaos by virtue of its animating idolatry.
People who do not keep clean are not wanted.
There's a reason millions of teenagers asked, "Who's Bin Laden?" after he was killed.
The media had scrupulously kept him out of the news unless it was to hurt Bush.
How many times did the Media ask Obama why he hadn't found Bin Laden in the last three years? ZERO.
Now all of a sudden Bin Laden is Dr. No in his evil lair.
Talk about Spin City....
The media needed it to be a mansion because they needed bin Laden to still be Blofeld and not Renfield for Obama's props...
The actual Rush quote, devoid of Lefty Lies:
Rush: "...but I've been listening to Barack Obama for a year-and-a-half. I know what his politics are. I know what his plans are, as he has stated them. I don't want them to succeed.
...Look, what he's talking about is the absorption of as much of the private sector by the US government as possible, from the banking business, to the mortgage industry, the automobile business, to health care. I do not want the government in charge of all of these things. I don't want this to work. So I'm thinking of replying to the guy, "Okay, I'll send you a response, but I don't need 400 words, I need four: I hope he fails."
And do you find this persuasive, Professor Althouse or are you "just sayin'"? After all, when Bin Laden escaped at Tora Bora he was living in a cave! Probably pretty nasty there too, but who wouldn't have found that to be an achievement?
And I thought the point about the million dollar mansion was fundamentally a not so subtle rebuke to the Pakistanis.
Fen: I wondered why the President would initiate such an order and then go golfing. There was a report that he was still in golfing shoes when he returned to the White House. The account you have linked to rings true. I wonder how long those around the President will support his "story" before growing weary of this charade. (Hey, Katie Couric! Here is some story telling for you!) That Obama was forced to go along with Obama's demise doesn't seem a surprise.
Westerners long ago came to agreement about the conduct of war, combatants and noncombatants, long before the Geneva Conventions. Civilians were to be left out of the killing. Civilian property was only to be destroyed when it was obviously and directly contributing to the war effort. The Twin Towers Attack was deliberate violation of those conventions. Osama demonstrated that he was an enemy of the United States and willing to fight a dirty war. Had it been up to me, I would have gone with a number of the biggest bombs possible. As for "innocent civilians", well the Muslim warriors wage war all the time hiding behind the skirts of women and children. The press release would be "We bombed what we believed to be the hide out of Osama bin Laden. If we were wrong, we regret the error. However, the next time we think he is living somewhere, we have bigger bombs, and we will try again. If we didn't kill him, and you live any where near where he is now, you might want to consider moving."
The problem the Israelis have had for years is the Muslims sending rockets into Israeli civilian areas from Muslim civilian areas. When the Israelis fight back, they get world condemnation. As long as Muslim civilians tolerate this cowardice, they can reap the rewards of their cowardice.
Alex goes off his meds again.
In WWII the German Airforce was effectively attacking RAF radar stations and landing strips. Then a German bomber dropped a string of bombs on London's East End. One theory is that it was a mistake, another that they had missed their target and were just dropping the bombs to lighten their load. Churchill was outraged, and insisted on bombing civilians in Germany. That made Hitler mad and he insisted on more civilian bombing around London. The sacrifice of the civilians saved the RAF, and kept Britain in the war.
So, was the point of Professor Althouse's post to trash on Rush, and flaunt her "I'm not a conservative blogger" credentials? The post really is going after Rush.
Hasn't the leftist press and cheer leaders pumped Obama up about this? Quotes like "Man, we've got a real gutsy President! No Republican gonna beat him!" The exception draws light to the rule. Obama isn't gutsy, and would prefer to think things through and be ambivalent.
But Rush isn't impressed, and our Professor takes umbrage.
Fen
You have linked to a right wing article that uses an unnamed source. Yeah, I'm going to believe that.
Look, there are people everywhere who want to diminish what has been done. But that article is hilarious. It bends over backwards to say every single person involved in getting OBL should be given credit execpt one: Obama. How convenient. It credits Hillary and Panetta who you guys normally hate. Oh, but not as much as Obama so it's okay to give them credit in this case because the message is Obama didn't know a thing. Hilarious.
I didn't much like Bush but I'd be pretty skeptical of an article that said he sat around all day doing nothing except taking credit when the time was right.
Also, yes, I get what Bush says in the video. The war on terror is bigger than one guy. But that one guy warranted more than just a shrug.
The information gained under Bush is what led to CIA finding OBL.
"I read this on a right wing website. It's on the INTERNET!"
Matt - connect the dots for us on why Obama is deserving of the MOST credit.
It's like saying Bush Sr. is the one who brought down the Berlin Wall when we all know it was Reagan.
Milwaukee
So civilians deaths only matter if they are civilians that you like or approve of? I think you need to rethink your position.
If our enemy defies the Geneva conventions that does not automatically cancel out the Geneva conventions and make it open season on every civilian who happens to be born in a country you hate. Your view is something I would expect out of Dr Strangelove. And that was a satire!
Matt: You have linked to a right wing article that uses an unnamed source. Yeah, I'm going to believe that. You have linked to a right wing article that uses an unnamed source. Yeah, I'm going to believe that.
You believed all the unsourced leaks to the NYTs when they damaged Bush. You still do. So lets not pretend you're in denial because its an anonymous leak to a "right-wing" site.
The information gained under Bush is what led to CIA finding OBL.
Libtard: I read this on a right wing website. It's on the INTERNET!
ABC News.
BRIAN WILLIAMS: “Can you confirm that it was as a result of waterboadring that we learned what we needed to learn to go after Bin Laden?”
LEON PANETTA: “Clearly some of it came from detainees and the advanced interrogation of detainees…”
BRIAN WILLIAMS: “Are you saying that waterboarding was in part among the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to this successful mission.”
LEON PANETTA: “I think some of the detainees, uh, clearly, uh, they used these advanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees.”
BRIAN WILLIAMS: “So finer point, one final time, that includes waterboarding?”
LEON PANETTA: “That is correct.”
How does it minimize Obama that Osama was living in what looks like a slumlord's holding? Wouldn't it minimize him more if Osama was able to live lavishly while evading the United States?
The media likes to minimize the United States, so the idea of Osama living like a king while dodging the United States naturally appealed to them.
Matt: If our enemy defies the Geneva conventions that does not automatically cancel out the Geneva conventions and make it open season on every civilian who happens to be born in a country you hate.
Matt champions the assassination of an unarmed man who was surrendering, then lectures us about the Geneva conventions.
*pass popcorn*
I wasn't alive at the time, but I have to wonder -- when Apollo 11 landed, did Republicans scurry to give all the credit to President Nixon? Did they say things like "if Kennedy and Johnson's space programs were so essential, how come they didn't land on the moon?".
They probably did. Partisanship is fairly predictable that way.
Alex
It's like saying Bush Sr. is the one who brought down the Berlin Wall when we all know it was Reagan.
Yeah, Reagan alone brought down the Berlin Wall. He had a big hammer. Come on! That Wall came down for many reasons.
Obama and his administration and the CIA and the SEALs et al deserve credit. Sure, Bush deserves a handshake and some credit too. But - to use a sports analogy - if your favorite football team won the Super Bowl would you give credit to a coach that left two seasons ago! I hope not.
LEON PANETTA: “Clearly some of it came from detainees and the advanced interrogation of detainees…”
Indeed.
We need higher-quality trolls. Arguing with a brick gets boring after a while.
Fen
champions the assassination of an unarmed man who was surrendering, then lectures us about the Geneva conventions.
I'm talking about the death of civilians. If NATO or the UN has an issue with this action I'm sure they will condemn it. But if you think killing OBL is equivalent to killing civilians then you're not too bright. Of course, you probably think he isn't actually dead....
"Civilian" is rather a strange Western concept here. They don't recognize the concept. Osama was interested in the destruction of Western culture. Fundamentalist Muslims frame this as a war against Western decadence. Any Westerner, regardless of our military status conventions, is to them an enemy. If they use their women and children as shields to hide behind, then there are consequences, and we don't need to be the ones suffering the consequences. We try to minimize civilian casualties out of our traditional cultural perspective. However, we can not protect ourselves, our innocents and their innocents. At some point the Muslim community needs to reign in their radicals. It appears to me that the vast majority of the international Muslim community is not outraged by excesses against our innocents.
As Golda Meir is reputed to have said:
"I can forgive them for what they do to us. I can not forgive them for what they make us do to them."
Matt: But - to use a sports analogy - if your favorite football team won the Super Bowl would you give credit to a coach that left two seasons ago!
Depends. Jimmy Johnson built the team that Barry Switzer took to the superbowl.
"the President of the United States was not informed of the engagement order – it did not originate from him, and for several hours after the order had been given and the special ops forces were preparing for action into Pakistan from their position in Afghanistan, Daley successfully kept Obama and Jarrett insulated from that order."
Wait! Rush is right!
The guy looks like a bum who lived in a shelter. If it wasn't for having to house the 3 wives. And, the assortment of kids you get from this ... Osama could'a been living in a shelter. In Detroit!
I wish we could be talking about the dog ... who FLEW! Without being crated up. And, who came down with a group of guys. Da Seals. And, didn't freak out when the explosives went off.
Which gave the guys access, so they didn't have to knock on the front door.
And, "wife #5" decided to lunge. So, the dog, with the muzzle removed ... lunged back. Took a bite while leaping towards her, even before his two front feet landed on solid ground.
This is the "shot" that had people in the Situation Room (also unfamiliar with dogs), telling us the woman got "shot."
If she had been shot her lower limb would have been blown off.
And, about this "funeral at sea." You know Osama "went in" without his left eye. The corpse, missing pieces ... cancels out the funeral's centerpiece. Which, I supposed is "absolution" before emersion.
Believe what you want.
I once believed the exit happened in Tora Bora.
While this time around I learned Osama didn't have dialysis equipment around. Just a few kids toys.
Oh, yeah. Rush is funny.
Maybe, the wives were only trained to "clean tents in the desert?" Why assume anything to do with saudis has efficiencies built in?
But - to use a sports analogy - if your favorite football team won the Super Bowl would you give credit to a coach that left two seasons ago! I hope not.
It is a bad analogy. A sports franchise is a relatively small organization with a well-defined objective. Finding bin Laden was the work of many bureacracies, and credit goes to a lot of people: special forces, intelligence agents, intelligence analysts, scientists, engineers, and so on.
What I find odd, are Presidents receiving any direct praise or blame whatsoever. They were barely involved, and the decisions he had to take were strategic in nature and could have easily have backfired. Other decisions, which now will never will be taken, may have led to faster, better results.
Now, don't get me wrong; I understand that the common human impulse is to give credit or assign blame to the top mammal. But, in cases like this, our instinct leads us into error.
Matt: But if you think killing OBL is equivalent to killing civilians then you're not too bright.
I see I have to dumb it down for you. You're cheerleading an action that violates the very Geneva Conventions you claim to champion.
ie. you don't really believe in the things you lecture the rest of us about, and can be disregarded.
This is what comes from you lifting talking points off of MediaMatters and HuffPo. You lack consistency in the positions you advocate, because they are not yours.
Man the energy expended trying to explain things to a liberal...whew! Can't be done. Liberalism REQUIRES a willing suspension of logic and realism. Look at obama...the economy is in a death spiral and his answer...RAISE TAXES! can you imagine the "thought process" that leads to that solution???
What I find odd, are Presidents receiving any direct praise or blame whatsoever.
Oh I agree. I think its the leadership of the President that we credit.
And I would be willing to extend Obama some credit, but he was out golfing when the decisions were made. He tried to stall the operation when he was informed of it. He tried to delay it further by taking a 16 hour nap. He dithered until he was threatened with resignations and leaks that would have destroyed his future political viability. And even then, all he did was set up Panetta as a scapegoat to cover his own ass. In the end, he wasn't even aware of the operation until it was too late to recall.
And now, he's touring the nation taking credit for Panetta's gutsy call.
Thats not leadership.
Matt: there are people everywhere who want to diminish what has been done.
Yes, people like you want to diminish what Bush has done.
From the "right-wing" Guardian:
Osama bin Laden mission agreed in secret 10 years ago by US and Pakistan
"The deal was struck between the military leader General Pervez Musharraf and President George Bush after Bin Laden escaped US forces in the mountains of Tora Bora in late 2001, according to serving and retired Pakistani and US officials.
Under its terms, Pakistan would allow US forces to conduct a unilateral raid inside Pakistan in search of Bin Laden, his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and the al-Qaida No3. Afterwards, both sides agreed, Pakistan would vociferously protest the incursion."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/09/osama-bin-laden-us-pakistan-deal
Fen
You’re the one linking to right wing talking point sites. You're also on a right wing site. I do not nor have I linked to HuffPo or Media Matters.
Take notes, friend: They are as partisan as the rest. Everything read there needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Same with right wing sites.
Also, clearly, the rape and death of children is not the same as the death of a terrorists. I guess you think they are the same? The world is also not black and white. Therefore, actions in time of war are not black and white. Do you think we would have won WWII if we had followed the Geneva conventions to the letter?
Lastly [and this is the last I will say on this blog today so don't bother commenting back] if this mission to kill OBL had failed you would have been at the front lines blaming Obama and only Obama in a loud, shrill voice. Admit it. But because it succeeded - well then - everyone is to be congratulated [including the last President] but not Obama because he couldn't have had anything to do with it.
Hypocrisy be thy name. And you talk about lacking consistency. Puleeeeeeze.
Matt said...
Fen
You’re the one linking to right wing talking point sites. You're also on a right wing site. I do not nor have I linked to HuffPo or Media Matters.
Matt: Ann Althouse has clearly established that she is a "contrarian" blogger, not a "right-wing" blogger. You better watch who you are being disrespectful to. On the other hand, I show clear "right-wing" tendencies.
Using talking points from Huffpo or Media Matters excuses one from actually linking, but decency demands accreditation. Others have asserted that you are using their talking points. I wouldn't know, as that would require me to go there, and I am disinclined to do so.
Ben Franklin asserted that three people can keep a secret when two of them are dead. Since I'm not wishing the death of anyone associated with the efforts to defend America by killing Osama bin Laden, I am looking forward to the leaks coming. Barack is going to piss some of these people off, and they will squeal like stuck pigs.
What's to show. It just proves what I've said all along. They are filthy, dirty, sub-humans, that are born, raised, and come from the unflushed toilets of the world and want to burn the world into that image. Anyone who weeps for these animals deserves the same fate.
Fen, if you don't like Matt's principles, just wait.
He has others.
I must admit, he didn't look like he was worth spending a trillion dollars on.
It is quite clearly an Obama achievement.
1. He chose these highly capable people, who were able put together a winning operation.
2. They were able to address and overcome the extreme skepticism and risk-aversion that is rife in government and push the plan forward. Including the rightful skepticism of the Executive. Lesser people would have given up.
3. They are extremely loyal, acting with necessary initiative to protect both the country and the Administration. That loyalty comes from Obama.
4. These people he chose are supreme practitioners of the organizational process: subordinates take the initiative and the fall; the executive takes the credit and is shielded from tactical failure; so as to preserve the strategic mission.
5. Obama obviously provided the proper mix of encouragement and restraint (i.e. wisdom).
Obama is the model of the modern major President.
Rush is trying to minimize Obama's achievement, of course.
And Althouse is trying to get back at Rush for ignoring her invitation do that weird split screen lib-blogging on their mutual birthday. Of course
Osama was a pig, so it was natural for him to live in a pig sty. IslamoFascists are pigs so it is natural for them to live in pig stys.
Of course, Rush is just showing how the administration is suffering from cognitive dissonance, even when they do something right.
Matt: Do you think we would have won WWII if we had followed the Geneva conventions to the letter?
The point is that your ethics are situational. You damn Bush but cheerlead Obama for violating the Geneva Conventions.
You’re the one linking to right wing talking point sites.
Thats a silly line of argument. A Catch-22. Your left-wing approved media won't run the leaks because they shill for Obama (as evidence, the "gutsy" meme echoed throughout JounoList Ver 2.0). Then you have the gall to assert the source is not credible becaus its hosted by a "right-wing" site.
Is that all you've got? Its a lie unless Dan Rather says otherwise?
So what does Rush expect. The banality of evil men is famous. They may have a power over other men by evil ideas that they channel, but inside they tend to be incomplete men, burned out and without discipline.
Osama might just have been a living straw man whose purpose was to legitimize an expansion of the U.S. police state.
Matt said...
edutcher
I'd say your view is hilarious and silly. It's like an argument made by a 12 years old after he loses a game. "Well the game wasn't important anyway...."
Not only are you minimizing the achievement of getting OBL you are minimizing the achievement of the SEALS, the military and the Intellegence community - to name but a few.
It must hurt for you to admit that sometimes Obama does the right thing. It must hurt for you to admit that Bush just couldn't get it done.
It's either Alpha or J with a new email account.
Once again, it took 2 years to develop the intel and 2 more to find and track the courier. Getting in and out of The Grim, as The Widow of Windsor's forces called it, was, of course, no mean feat.
Saying bin Laden was irrelevant strategically does in no way, shape, or form minimize what was done by the Spec Ops guys. It does, however, minimize the shameless I, I, I, me, me, my, my attempts at exploitation of it by Little Zero.
But, of course, the only reason Matt (or J or Alpha) is even belching the same tired Left-wing baloney we heard all last week, is because they think this may save Zero's re-election bid. Not to mention the fact he wants us to forget if Little Zero had gotten his way from '05 - '08, we would not have bin Laden - wherever he is.
And, as Fen noted, it was Panetta that ran the show.
PS Nicely put, Fen.
did Republicans scurry to give all the credit to President Nixon?
I was 8, but I wasn't aware of that. The space program still had everyone behind it, unlike Vietnam at that point. Nixon was involved in the landing brouhaha, but the Kennedy cult hadn't yet been dimmed by Teddy and the sluts, so he got the credit for pushing Apollo, which was a bigger deal with the general public (through #13) than anything since, until 9/11 (with the possible exception of the Bicentennial).
Sandinista - (to rearrange the popular saying) Nixon's achievement: we walked on the moon. Even I, a ten-year old, knew with clarity at the time, that Nixon's "phone call" to Aldrin and Armstrong, was unearned unseemly glory-hounding. The hunkering, confused and frightened little man in the corner achieved nothing.
============
Nixon had already been told by NASA that the recommended protocol set up by LBJ's men before the fire delayed the program - was he would congratulate the Apollo 11 crew on the moon landing. Conversely, if they crashed or were marooned there alive (for a day till the air ran out) Nixon was to go on national TV and mourn them.
Nixon was ready either way. And Support of the Moon mission was bipartisan, and Nixon's praise was bipartisan.
he got the credit for pushing Apollo
Meaning JFK, not Teddy. If anything, LBJ was slighted by the media in favor of JFK--there's a reason mission control was in Houston.
At that point, Vietnam had ruined Johnson in the eyes of the elite, despite all he'd done for civil rights and the welfare state (Medicare, Medicaid, expanded SS)--Nixon didn't get shat upon until 1970 and his attacks into Cambodia. Kennedy was still a sainted martyr, despite getting our foot stuck in the quagmire of war.
Matt "If our enemy defies the Geneva conventions that does not automatically cancel out the Geneva conventions and make it open season on every civilian who happens to be born in a country you hate. Your view is something I would expect out of Dr Strangelove. And that was a satire!"
---------------
Funny Matt is so ignorant that he confused a movie for the reality. In 1964 and the reality now - that there would be MAD (mutually assured destruction) in total war with a a superpower, one-sided obliteration by a superpower of an Israel or Pakistan in that sort of no-holds war.
The war planners say they would assume the greatest chances of avoiding total destruction would be phased deterrance. The Paks for example, hit one US city, kill 800,000 people. Our response would not be "we are better than that" - but we roast 5 cities worth of Pakis and ask if they wish to surrender.
We would not...not retaliate.
Matt as a liberal fails to understand Geneva and Hague are not "unbreakable ideals" but diplomatic treaties waying we will do such and such as long as we get reciprocity.
Same thing holds in POWs. Geneva is reciprocal. One side doesn;t take prisoners or generally violates protocols of treating bona-fode POWs decently - treaty is breached and the other side does not have to honot it if it chooses to.
We could have an app for that. Send the app writing samples of a particular author. With sufficient samples the app would determine whether all the writings came from the same author. English teachers can tell, after a few weeks, if a student has turned in work done by another. Simple app. Then people wouldn't need to play games by using different names. Although, if somebody did need an alias, "MATT" is pretty innocuous. I wonder what the minimum number of writing samples would need to be to assure a 95% confidence authorship.
Its says much that the lefties on these boards need to constantly change their identities.
For them, credibility is disposable.
Fen: I repeat myself. That way you can say "Yup, that's him again." The leftist have no honor and no integrity: everything is fluid and all morals are situational. Situational morals are solid one minute and gone the next. Having a disposable identity is nothing to them. Just pretend all that other stuff didn't exist and start over from scratch. Except they don't start over from scratch, they start over with the same baggage they ended with, and have the same results.
there would be MAD (mutually assured destruction) in total war with a superpower
Except we used the fig leaf of targeting Soviet military sites (some of which just happened to be in Moscow), and the city populations were reckoned to be collateral damage. The Soviet ICBMs were far from their big cities (as are ours), but the fallout from the ground bursts needed to destroy them would have killed half of Asia, depending on the wind. I spent 20 months in the 80's making fallout maps and plotting missile trajectories for early SDI studies.
Since we don't know where the Paki or Persian nukes are, we'll just have to blanket both countries.
So Sorry.
wv fuglymi - true, but still uncalled for
The squalor, though, remains hard to understand. Can't think of a good reason.
Here's the reason:
In that culture the wives of the barda sahib (the big guy) do not do the scut labor.
That's what servants are for.
There's the cook, the watchman, the ayah, the sweeper and several other permutations of hired (or indentured) help.
Problem was -- living incognito means that the labor pool was a bit limited. It's hard to find good help when part of the job description includes living inside a barbed wire compound and not being able to chit chat over chai in the bazaar about the boss and the memsahibs. For five years.
So -- since cleaning the floor and doing other servanty type things was beneath the wives, which one was going to demean herself?
And he did live in a cave at one time.
As for the back and forth with Fen et al. ...
The version presented involving Valerie Jarrett and the Prez has that resonance of truth.
Given that the UK paper has a back story on an agreement that we apparently had in place, it does fit together.
BTW -- did you know the unit that went in there (the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (SOAR) -- [Night Stalkers]) is the result of Jimmy Carter's Desert One debacle during the Iran hostage?
The military looked at the mess that turned out to be and said "That's not going to happen like that again ...."
While the compound was assessed by US officials at a value of US$1 million, local real-estate agents assess the property value at US$250,000.
Yes, but this administration's flunkies have been talking for years about raising taxes on "millionaires", by which they mean anyone with an income of $250,000. I just figure "million" is another word they don't understand.
You’re the one linking to right wing talking point sites.
Like the Grauniad. Pravda or it didn't happen, fen!
How charming of Alex to make rape jokes. Homosexual rape jokes. Great argument there, Alex.
It didn't happen. No body, no picture, burial at sea-- yeah right. They killed someone, but it wassn't OBL--- he's already dead years ago. Are you all blind?
Obama: 'OBL was living in a million-dollar compound'.
As Limbaugh has observed, the optics do not match the narrative.
Sigh.
Just another day of the democrat-apparatchik-led media complex, straining to glorify Zero.
Yawn.
Let's all start playing the "Obama-No" game - including the lamestream media. Here's how it goes:
"No, Mr. President. We/I don't believe you. Rush said ..."
It'll be fun just to see the steam come out of those ears.
It's obvious that Fen has this episode nailed down tight, with quotes and links....TIGHT!
@Fen
"For them, credibility is disposable."
Yes, goes about as far as their last fund-raiser.
I'm talking about the death of civilians. If NATO or the UN has an issue with this action I'm sure they will condemn it. But if you think killing OBL is equivalent to killing civilians then you're not too bright. Of course, you probably think he isn't actually dead....
God - will you trolls at least learn something about the Geneva Conventions that you're always whining about. When military facilities or illegal combatants are placed among innocent civilians; the persons responsible for any civilian deaths, ARE NOT the people that shoot at or bomb them. IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO PLACED THE FACILITIES THERE OR WHO CHOSE TO HIDE AMONG CIVILIANS. To make the group attacking the facilities or persons hiding among the civilians responsible, would be to allow civilians to be used as human shields. It would place civilians at risk, which is contrary to the very purposes of the Conventions.
sarge here now is el queda an ol osama bin swimmin signators of thar geneva convention/protocols ? do criminal gangs fightin not under color of flag nor in uniform get tharselves treated like norml prisoners an such? just askin cuz sarge is pretty sure osama got double tapped with some o that hornady TAP
ps sarge thinks ol rushball is like thar hindenberg a fat flammin nazi gas bag har har an oldie but a goodie
sarge here ps my god thar rushbo has a fuckin amazing fat head never seen one quite like it thank god he aint got a neck cuz atlas would shrug under such a weight harharhar
On Rush criticism of the President's description of OBL living quarters. The simple answer is the President is a gentlemen.
Sarge: as suggestion--try something approaching standard written english--I know every commenter has their own schtick, but yours is particularly bad because some idiots here might think your obscure prose is how the military NCO corp actually writes.
oops: NCO corps (not the Obama pronunciation, mind you)
A thought on the OBL kill--In today's blame game politics Mr Obama would have gotten the blame from the right but would have been defended by the left--and conversely because of the success--Thats the nature of our political "discourse" these days. Senator Vandeburg's dictum that politics should stop at the water's edge has long been abandoned.
I dont think bagging OBL will have much affect on 2012..Quoting Mr Carville Its the economy stupid--When gas is 5.00 a gallon unemployment still high and a double dip recession a probablity, this action wont be on voter's minds.
A tactical coup but the reality is it wont have any effect on the war on terror. The jihadi's still wish to kill us.
In today's blame game politics Mr Obama would have gotten the blame from the right but would have been defended by the left
"...Both Gates and Clinton warned Panetta of the implications of that authority – namely he was possibly being made into a scapegoat. Panetta admitted that possibility, but felt the opportunity to get Bin Laden outweighed that risk. During that meeting, Hillary Clinton was first to pledge her full support for Panetta, indicating she would defend him if necessary. Similar support was then followed by Gates.
...Daley then informed Clinton that he too would fully support Panetta in his actions, even if it meant disclosing the president’s indecision to the American public should that action fail to produce a successful conclusion."
I am glad to see that Rush confines himself to what he understands about OBL: household domestics. As one who keeps his home perfumed, he can offer some keen insights into what a million dollar home is suppose to look like.
Fen--I am with you dude--we are almost always in synch--My default position is I dont trust Washington "insiders" on either side of the political spectrum
The account you cited rings true given my reading of this particular excessively politicized White House. But the account needs some corroboration.
Maybe the SEALS should have brought along special agent Limbaugh: code name, "White Hog." "we're goin in, white Hog! Zero 3 -hundred hours
But the account needs some corroboration.
Agreed.
BTW, Fen--if the insider account is true, Mr Panetta far surpassed my expectations--good on him
Rush is right. A woman's job in countries like Pakistan is to cook, clean and serve the husband. Feminists ought to point their ire at islam and not Rush.
they also sell their 10 year old daughters to 50 year old men for sheep.
if the insider account is true, Mr Panetta far surpassed my expectations--good on him
Hillary too.
J: special agent Limbaugh: code name, "White Hog."
J slips back into racism. Ooops.
You gotta feel for the Soros trainers.
Three wives in a pig sty isn't about women cleaning house, it's about the difficulty of figuring out who has the authority to tell so-and-so to get off her lazy butt and do her part. You can order your kids around but a co-wife?
"Rush is right. A woman's job in countries like Pakistan is to cook, clean and serve the husband. Feminists ought to point their ire at islam and not Rush."
Bingo.
The impression I get is that OBL didn't care if he lived in a pig sty or not. If he did, he would have gotten the wives to clean the place. And with three of them to share the load, it wouldn't take much effort.
One might consider the possibility that the wives turned on him. But I have a hard time believing that a rich Arab Muslim would marry three Loretta Lockhorns.
Alex,
Did you hope Bush would succeed?
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