Photographed today, the damage was done on Wednesday night when the building was stormed and retaken (according to one of the Capitol police).
१३ मार्च, २०११
Door plate and hinge damaged by the Wisconsin Capitol protesters.
Photographed today, the damage was done on Wednesday night when the building was stormed and retaken (according to one of the Capitol police).
याची सदस्यत्व घ्या:
टिप्पणी पोस्ट करा (Atom)
पोस्ट्स
१९९ टिप्पण्या:
It was Teabagger provocateurs!
/sarcasm
Stormed and retaken.
Just like the Winter Palace?
Or maybe Saddam's palace, where we lost.
Who does such violent things? Tea Partiers? Bitter clingers?
Tsk! Tsk!
Looks like the mob brought tools.
Time for the state of Wisconsin to start sending out repair bills to the organizations involved in the protests.
If they don't pay, sue 'em.
Do you know what happens to the finances of organizations that have outstanding state lawsuits against them?
No new loans. No new lines of credit. No bank touches you until the suit gets settled.
Either way, the state of Wisconsin wins.
When are the taxpaying public that are unaffiliated with unions but saddled with the bills of same going to stand in their own defense?
Your silence will only get you steamrollered and it has already begun.
"Unions plan more protests and a recall effort, as authorities ID death threat sender"
Stand up for yourselves like you did last November.
When are the taxpaying public that are unaffiliated with unions but saddled with the bills of same going to stand in their own defense?
The problem is that unions and professional protesters are used to tribal thinking. That's why, e.g., the teamsters showed up to protest even though the law doesn't affect them in any way.
Most Americans have grown out of tribal thinking. We identify ourselves as Americans, not hyphenated Americans. We've got no natural inclination to band together with the rest of the people who share our profession, social status, or race.
This puts us at a disadvantage in situations like this, even though it is an advantage in the rest of life.
Time for the state of Wisconsin to start sending out repair bills to the organizations involved in the protests.
Here ya go...
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20500
Your tax dollars have to pay for the damage.
Rev, what you say is true but taxpayers nationwide have found a common thread and bonded over the past two years to bring events to where they are today.
To me, prudence would have dictated renting a scissors lift instead of clambering over that which you profess to respect, and using plastic tongs while wearing latex gloves, to eliminate the possibility of scratching or etching the statue.
FLS on a previous thread. Ironic, isn't it?
Well, it seems there are destructive people taking part in one side of this "argument." Doesn't taint everybody.
While, yes. It's good of Meade to be so observant. And, also willing (as he did when he removed the red shirt from the Heg statue), willing to go the extra mile. Most people wouldn't.
As to the "shirt draping," I don't think it was a "union" idea ... so much as one person who climbed up on the statue to do it.
By the way, there's a good chance that those doing the destruction are bussed in.
And, there's no police department, anywhere, that isn't learning lessons in this stuff. It is called CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. (Some police are trained better than others. Some use their vehciles to block traffic. Some are outfitted in paraphenalia bought with "drug bust" money. And, in some jurisdictions they call in the fire department, to use hoses.
Do you think this is something that just happens in Madison, Wisconsin?
Great timing. I was just posting at the Wis. State Journal site where a bunch of "see no evil" Libs were yammering about how peaceful and respectful the protests have been. One link to Althouse and all their posts were immediately rendered moot.
(Shockingly, I do not think I would win a popularity contest at that particular site.)
Rev, what you say is true but taxpayers nationwide have found a common thread and bonded over the past two years to bring events to where they are today.
But conservatives and libertarians are often so simply because they object to the intrusion of politics in their lives. They want to be left alone. They are busy doing other things! That's part of what makes them non-liberals, i.e. non-busy-bodies.
It is difficult to rally such people. So many of us don't want to belong to any group or movement.
Don't get me wrong, I am very grateful for the things the Tea Party has accomplished. But any coordinated response is virtually antithetical to the very nature of many people.
Five dollars at Ace Hardware should provide a new brass pin for the hinge, and two wood screws to resecure the plate. I'd do it myself if I lived in Madison. Somebody desperately but foolishly wanted to get inside.
Carol.H: "Do you think this is something that just happens in Madison, Wisconsin?"
Yes.
The damage is unfortunate - we shouldn't believe that these 'protests' are all peaceful, though.
I think we've seen what 'peaceful' means to this particular group of like-minded people, that is, it is more important to them to identify with their union than it is to see the bigger picture as Americans.
I believe it unhealthy to engage in any behavior or endeavor that doesn't consider the impact on your fellow American. Unions and union members are not bigger than the idea of America or what it means to be a citizen. If it means rejecting the greater good for your group, I think you miss the point. This union mentality is a dividing force in a macro sense.
Easily 7.5 million in damage there!
@fls,
"Five dollars at Ace Hardware should provide a new brass pin for the hinge, and two wood screws to resecure the plate."
You don't do a lot of work on reconstruction of historical sites, do you?
It's thousands to fix that door. I know it seems ridiculous, but that's what it'll cost, sure as shootin'
I don't understand how they fucked up that hinge. Anybody have any ideas?
It looks like they forced the rod-thingy (technical term) out of the loopy things (more technical jargon) but couldn't actually move the door once it was out because of the lower hinge and the lock.
This is even worse than the Tea Party cleaning crew who used soap and water on the antique rocks.
former law student said...
"Five dollars at Ace Hardware should provide a new brass pin for the hinge, and two wood screws to resecure the plate. I'd do it myself if I lived in Madison. Somebody desperately but foolishly wanted to get inside."
Yes, desperately foolish is what I get from your statement.
Is the oak scratched or gouged on the door to the left of the door plate? That would require the entire door to be refinished.
@FLS and garage:
All about the aftermath, huh? Nothing about the scum that perpetrated this?
Doesn't matter how much it costs. It's the act of disrespect. Specifically, the bad manners involved. You'll laugh at that, I'm sure, but a lot of people see it that way.
When all is said and done, Walker will have shown an amazing amount of restraint and decorum. His opposition? Not so much.
This is why Walker will not be recalled. These pictures are being collected and will be used in any campaign.
This is the problem with you morons; you think with your dicks and not your brains. It's all the emotion of the moment with you.
For us, that's a great thing.
The extensive damage to the very center of state government should bring swift and terrible retribution on the dastardly villains who perpetrated this crime against all standards of human decency.
Fry them, I say, for their terrible violence. Alas the hinge. Alas the knob's plate. Oh, the humanity. Alas the senility.
This is why Walker will not be recalled. These pictures are being collected and will be used in any campaign.
Walker is going to run a campaign to not get recalled? Really. "I need your vote, I mean, I need you to not vote!"
He appears to have other things to deal with. 4000 greet him Green Bay.
A secret ploy by Walker-
Drive the libtards crazy with conservative policies to the point they destroy the State Capitol building.
Beyond repair, he's forced to authorize the building of a brand new one-away from Madison- in a faraway land called "Wisconsin".
How about Rockford, Illinois for the new capitol of Wisconsin?
I bet those horrendously violent Tea Party protests had plenty of civic damage in their aftermath.
Right?
This may have come up before, but can Meade (safely) uncover the staging points for out-of-city unionizers?
Photos of a few buses?
I know Garage thinks this is all grass-roots, but we know his M.O.
Does anyone seriously believe there is going to be a Walker recall election?
Frankly this doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If I was reading a liberal site and they showed a photo of a bent doorknob plate as some sort of evidence of Tea Partier thuggery I would laugh.
Photos of a few buses?
Uh, those are people, not buses.
Really?
100,000 people come to the capital to protest and Ann blogs a picture of a doorknob?
I've had more damage at my house after my parents came to dinner.
Obviously you had Union parents.
Yes, they were really hell on door knobs. That's the reason I had them put away.
Lucid, where the fuck are you getting this 100,000 number? Not even close. Not by a long shot. Quit being a liar for just this once, ok? It ain't so. Deal with it.
A small price to pay so all of us could see "what democracy looks like".
Alex said...
"Does anyone seriously believe there is going to be a Walker recall election?"
Since it will have to wait a year, choices will have to be made:
Work on recalling Walker or work on re-electing Obama.
Figure out who's driving the bus-
Then you can pretty much determine who get's on it, and who's going under it.
Ann, I love ya madly, but damage?
The door needs a hinge pin...and 2 screws for the door plate, by the handle. Shouldn't have happened at all, but not a biggy to repair/replace at all.
100,000 people come to the capital to protest and Ann blogs a picture of a doorknob?
It was more than 100k. See here and click on portion of image you wan embiggened
Damage, is damage, is damage.
There should be no damage.
Politics being what it is points must be made.
This is what 100,000 people look like:
http://dane101.com/files/Panorama.jpg
Keep in mind that even this wonderful panoramic photo can only capture part of the crowd from one corner of the building. Throughout the day many people were massed on all sides and inside the Capitol as well as down State Street.
Also there was a constant flow of people coming and going throughout the day. All of which makes it nearly impossible to state how many were there at any given moment.
Any damage to our beautiful Capitol building is regretable. So is falsely claiming that there was $7,000,000 in damages. Both sides have played fast and loose with the truth over the past few weeks. But this photo does not lie.
Considering the number of people who were in and around the Capitol over the last few weeks, any damage, including this door was, indeed, negligible.
I missed the 3/11 night-time seige but I was there most of four days including the two big ones (2/26/and 3/12) and the demeanor of the protestors was always well within the bounds of "non-violent resistence."
How would their behavior and the resulting "damages" stack up compared to, say, Summerfest, Taste of Chicago or other similar mammoth events?
The entire experience should make all Wisconsinites and Americans proud of the way our people acted as they expressed their outrage with the Governor and the Republicans.
I think a lot of the carping here and elsewhere is the result of envy and jealousy.
@Patrick.
Beautifully said.
It is good to have your participation here.
I urge you to encourage your colleagues to join us here also.
We need your voices.
Yeah, we're all wicked jealous that our Tea Parties don't feature swastikas, vandalism and violence like your little self-pity party up in Madison.
@chef mojo--
You are of course your typical dishonest self.
What a contrast with the decency and moderation of patrick's tone.
The 100,000 number was as reported by Fox News this morning.
Any damage to our beautiful Capitol building is regretable. So is falsely claiming that there was $7,000,000 in damages.
I like the equivalence you draw between vandalism and inaccurate estimates of the cost of repairing the vandalism.
It effectively communicates how seriously you should be taken.
Walker should be shaking in his slip-ons. The strength and discipline and passion of this crowd is going to make his political life impossible. His career is finished less than three months after it began.
Has there ever been a crowd like this gathered at the capital before?
Has there even been a protest that extended over so many weeks, with such strenght of feeling and high quality of participation?
These weeks of protest may become a high point in Wisconsin's political history, if they lead to a successful series of recall elections and culminate in a strong Democratic majority in the statehouse.
Go Teachers!!!
The anti-Bush protests lasted for more than 8 years. You chumps have a long way to go.
Despite the yahoos who tend to post here--and I hope Patrick comes back with large numbers of friends so that we can have a real discussion here--there is a large segment of the Tea Party that is very ambivalent about the expansion of government power against individuals that is being pracitced by Walker and the Republicans.
That is why the national polls are running 2-to-1 against what Walker is doing, and why his approval rating in Wisconsin has dropped so precipitously.
Like New Gingrich and Nancy Pelosi before him, he is taking his political victory and marching right off a cliff.
He won't be missed.
Revenant:
Throughout history, far greater vandalism has been done to humanity with words than with physical acts.
As Woody Guthrie poetically put it in his Dust Bowl tribute to an American Robin Hood:
"...Through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen."
Or, as is found in the oft quoted line by Bulwer...
"The Pen is Mightier than the Sword."
I would think that this would be a core principal of the Tea Party.
Patrick - "This Land is Your Land" and other such socialist nonsense.
Patrick said...
"I think a lot of the carping here and elsewhere is the result of envy and jealousy."
Patrick, lucid, garage, et al., please don't let yourselves be distracted by the heroic property damage, whatever the final repair bill may come to, caused by your self-sacrificing heroes in union collective "bargaining" solidarity.
The real issue remains: Wisconsin had a democratic election in November. You and your fellow travelers attempted, through intimidation, mob action, and union thuggery, to block legitimate state government.
Recall all the senators and assemblymen and governors you want. What will successfully be recalled for many many years, in Wisconsin and elsewhere, is that you and your ilk are not forces for representative democratic government. When you don't get your way, you resort to rule by mob and THAT is what your democracy looks like.
ASS-inine wrote:
"The anti-Bush protests lasted for more than 8 years. You chumps have a long way to go."
And those protests ended in a massive repudiation of the Republican Party by the nation.
And then the Democrats overplayed their hand.
Which is exactly what Walker and the Republicans are now doing.
Oh, Meade.
How sad that you would say such stupid things.
This is about Democratic protest and people refusing to accept an action by their government that they feel is fundametally unfair.
The protests have been remarkably peaceful and filled with powerful feelings.
These protests say much more good about the people who participated in them and made them happen than the sullen yahoos who attack the protesters can ever undo.
The protesters made history here over the last month.
And that history is going to continue to unfold.
I still like you, Meade.
But you are very wrong in your position about this.
When you don't get your way, you resort to rule by mob and THAT is what your democracy looks like.
We came unarmed. This time.
hahahaha, just kidding. You love the Tea Party Townhells with people showing up packing heat, but you hate protests by liberals. We get it. They aren't going away I don't think though.
And Meade--
The state capital building is MEANT to be used by the people. It is the people's house. It does not belong to the politicians. It belongs to the people who have the right to put the politicians there and the right to remove them.
So don't wring your hands over the scuffs. They are the marks of democratic vitality--like the little tearings of muscle tissue that build strength through exercise.
They are what makes the polity strong.
So, FLS or whoever wanted to rat out Meade over the Heg statue:
well?
Crickets? I am shocked, shocked.
Damage to the building is regrettable, but I think you're focusing on the effect and not really bothering to compare it to the cause.
Things like this shouldn't be happening to our state Capitol. People stormed the Capitol because they felt the government wasn't listening to them.
I've heard the Republicans in the Assembly mention again and again that the Democrats rammed through a budget bill a couple years ago without a public hearing and without as much contest. The difference is the content of the bills, as this one was identified very quickly as having many bits and pieces that many people had a problem with.
When we first gathered to protest the measures taken in the recovery bill (collective bargaining, power plants), we were very distraught that it seemed that none of the points we were bringing up were being properly addressed or even considered by the Republican majority. Even at the last minutes of the Assembly session, when the mic was given to the Republicans it really didn't seem like they had any desire to actually debate the things that people had a problem with decent responses.
They have control of every branch of the Wisconsin government right now. It's never been a question of can they pass the bill, you were always going to win.
The fact that the Walker's bill has lead to actual damages on the building is quite a statement I think though. Frustrating as it is to see such a beautiful building have a couple of chinks and damages on a few doors, that can be repaired. The only permanent damage I can think of is the selling of the power plants. Not sure how we can recover those back.
The protests have been remarkably peaceful and filled with powerful feelings
LOL.
Their feelings were powerful, very powerful, yet not powerful enough to deflect the even more powerful republicans. With awesome powerfulness, the tremendously powerful feelings of those who did not run away won the day.
I just noticed a headline on HotAir, 'Walker: You can stop the layoffs,' and it made me think of the point in 1984 where Winston enters Room 101 and they dehumanize and break him by threatening him to the point where he says 'Don't do it to me! Do it to Julia!'
Unions, for all their claims about democracy and justice are basically about the power struggle and letting someone, sometimes their own members and fellow employees suffer rather than share the suffering. In this case, the union members didn't really lose that much except the ability to coerce the taxpayers.
Unions were the answer for workers who were oppressed, but employers have learned that oppressing your employees is bad business.
They aren't going away I don't think though.
Because there are lots of union sympathizers with taxpayer or union -funded time on their hands. I laughed when a post looking for volunteers to go to the protests from Eau Claire met with nearly unanimous response from those employed in the private sector that they would be too busy WORKING in the real world to attend such childishness.
Patrick, don't let the Madison echo-chamber fool you. It's a big state and and I've traveled across most of it in the past 3 weeks. There's not a lot of sympathy outside of Mad-town and Milwaukee proper.
And, sorry, hate to post and logout but I've got an early flight tomorrow.
Carry on!
Wow. The floor is sticky in here, wonder why. Oh. Leftist Circle Jerk.
Dylan? I believe the power plant portion of the bill was stripped out on the advice of 3 separate non-partisan groups that tbr Republicans worked with prior to passage of the modified bill. Just FYI.
I would LOVE to see a recall campaign on Walker and this bill.
So far Walker and the Republicans have treated the union employees with kid gloves.
But you want to get into it?
You want to see ads on 24/7 about the generous benefit packages that union employees get?
You want to have a discussion about the ridiculous overtime rules that unions have forced upon the taxpayers. You want to taxpayers to think about how the contracts given to union reps caused the school board to cancel several sporting teams?
You want to have a discussion about bus drivers earning 100k a year? You want the public to realize that they had no power before Walker to call a halt to that kind of nonsense?
You want to discuss kickbacks to the union health insurance scam?
Yeah baby. BRING-IT-ON.
The problem for the public unions is the facts are against them. They have a better deal under Walker than federal workers do under Obama. You want to have ads pointing that out during the 2012 campaign?
Yeah baby. You got your flashy loud rallies now, but you don't want to have a serious discussion about this in 2012. Trust me. You Don't.
@patrick
The entire experience should make all Wisconsinites and Americans proud of the way our people acted as they expressed their outrage with the Governor and the Republicans.
Since thuggishness is the liberal way, I'll admit to being a bit surprised that the Union-Americans didn't burn the building down. However, in the future try to remember that the way adult participants in the political process express their outrage on these matters is in the voting booth.
@calypso--
It's a bigger nation, and all the polls--including Rasmussen--say that public opinion is running 2-to1 against Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans. That is a huge margin--unusually so.
Good luck with that.
Ah, beat me to it. Well then...
"Somebody desperately but foolishly wanted to get inside"
Like a Wisconsin member of the public, to who the capitol was not supposed to be barred?
Or maybe they foolishly wanted to get out? Good thing there was no Triangle Shirtwaist bong-fire action on the inside of that door.
You guys (you know who you are) are well past wrong and into wicked, heading steadily for the other side of evil.
You see, there is such a thing as evil. I know that dropping cluster boms on those crowds would be evil. I even realize that catching up all those fat slob union guys
(and really, what does a fat man need with a union? Tell me those guys are the "working men" that Gonmpers et al fought for? He fought against the fat cats. Now if you want to pick out a union guy your best bet is to go for the big gut),
tying their thumbs behind their backs with baling wire, forcing them to their knees at the side of a ditch, and shooting them in the back of the head a la Katyn Forest would be evil.
Now, it would have good results for the rest of the country but it would still be evil - murdering evildoers is still evil - and I would not endorse it.
You guys? You wouldn't waste your time - because you know the correlation of forces is against you.
And for that reason only. You can at this time only do your brutality in onesies and twosies, and in petty meannesses and the occasional bitten finger.
If you had the power, you'd hang Scott Walker on a meathook faster than Roland Freisler, to regain what you have just lost by your foolish actions and the will of the people as expressed by their elected representatives.
Oh and that door will indeed cost a lot of money. The plate is bent. Possibly the whole of the lock is wrenched. Who knows what has to be done for the wood.
It's just the sort of ignorant people that you are to speak of Ace Hardware. You deserve a capitol made by Ace Hardware. Perhaps you will get one. Sheer luck one of your side didn't burn down the place like the Reichstag fire.
(And yes, Godwin Godwin Godwin. Whatever. Fine, you'd chop up Walker with an ax like Luca Brasi. You'd burn the place down like the bust-out in Goodfellas. To compare you with the Nazis is frankly to elevate you.)
Pfui! I spit on you.
TW: speapod. I don't bother to name you guys because you are all speapod.
Wrong again, lucid. The latest polls show that Dems are against, Pubbies are for, as one might expect. The key point is the independents, who now break decisively against the unions.
"I believe the power plant portion of the bill was stripped out on the advice of 3 separate non-partisan groups that tbr Republicans worked with prior to passage of the modified bill."
Exactly correct. But Dylan, garage, lucid, Patrick, and a cast of a 100 thousand won't let facts stand in their heroic self righteous struggle "to be heard" aka: to block legitimate democratically elected government from functioning because they lost an election, lost power, and now will use any means necessary to get what they want short of organizing and electing new majorities in future elections.
"The fact that the Walker's bill has lead to actual damages on the building is quite a statement I think though"
It is quite a statement. Was Walker's Bill written on reinforced tungsten steel and shot at that door with a cannon? I figured it was just written on paper.
Of course, I also figured that the damage to building was caused by an unruly mob that had no respect for the house that belongs to all of the people, not just the people who agree with them.
You really have to be stretching to blame this on Walker, but the Left has been doing a lot of stretching in the last few weeks in Wisconsin.
We learned from you and the Tea Party, Meade.
No, garage, that's just it - you learned absolutely nothing.
Let's not get all dewy-eyed and sentimental t the noble feelings of the protesters. They're out there demonstrating so that they can continue to be paid as much as possible, period. They are not there for the children and they are not there for the sick and the crippled. They want as much of the government's revenue for themselves as possible.
Not that I can necessarily blame them for being selfish - who isn't? - but all the holier than thou bullshit the union side puts out is really a bit much. To dress up naked self-interest in such flowery, righteous language is really just putting lipstick on the proverbial pig.
So what were the Tea Party rallies exactly about again? What was the point?
Throughout history, far greater vandalism has been done to humanity with words than with physical acts.
What a load of horseshit.
So what were the Tea Party rallies exactly about again? What was the point?
Sadly, they were NOT about forcibly preventing the Democrats from enacting ObamaCare, car company bailouts, homeowner bailouts, or any of the other offenses against the common people we've had forced on us over the last few years.
Perhaps we should have taken a page from your book and resorted to force immediately. Then again, in the end force didn't serve you any better than speech served us.
mogget
i got the 2-to-1 against Walker from Wallace on Fox this morning.
go suck your toe.
So what were the Tea Party rallies exactly about again? What was the point?
I think the point was that we're broke and need to stop overspending.
I think the point was that we're broke and need to stop overspending.
If we are truly broke they would stop spending billions on Iraq/Afghanistan. If it were a crisis they would raise taxes. Neither of which is happening.
hey garage - then why isn't your hero Obambi withdrawing all the troops from Eye-raq & Afghfuckistan?
"The fact that the Walker's bill has lead to actual damages on the building is quite a statement I think though."
That is the same reasoning some use to blame the bombing and death in 1970 on the school administration, because they didn't listen to the student protesters who wanted links with the military broken.
"If you don't give us what we want, we will throw a really big tantrum and things will get broken, so you better give in to our blackmail".
I'm looking forward to see who is challenged for recall and who gets sent home. It will be put-up or shut up.
Okay, garage, I'm going to tell you this once and once only, so listen up and then think about it.
The Tea Party is about using legitimate, nonviolent, non-coercive speech and protest to achieve a more limited government of less taxation, less spending, and less involvement in private individual lives.
Tea Party participants have not been involved in: illegal occupation of government buildings, violence or threats of violence, criminal property damage, condoning or excusing criminal property damage, elected officials refusing to do the most fundamental aspects of their jobs such as showing up for work, nor have they organized illegal non-permitted demonstrations, flash mobs, or illegal storming of legislatures as a means of blocking laws being passed by representative who were elected by a majority of voters.
You don't like the present government? Yeah, take a page out of the Tea Party playbook - organize and win elections.
I meant to also say, send the repair bill to the City of Madison and their police dept.
Meade - you're missing the point. Violence & vandalism IS the point for these leftist groups. They can't feel good unless they're doing bad things.
"So what were the Tea Party rallies exactly about again? What was the point?"
You really have learned nothing, actually less than nothing.
I've heard the Republicans in the Assembly mention again and again that the Democrats rammed through a budget bill a couple years ago without a public hearing and without as much contest. The difference is the content of the bills
The difference is the public reaction. Republicans patiently funneled their outrage into ( regularly scheduled ) elections. They won without having to occupy buildings or flood streets. Or spend tax payer dollars on repairs, extra police coverage, etc.
If we are truly broke they would stop spending billions on Iraq/Afghanistan. If it were a crisis they would raise taxes. Neither of which is happening.
So the fact that the government isn't doing anything to fix the problem means there is no problem? Thanks for the laugh, garage, this place would be pretty dull without you.
meade--it's not only one election for all time.
there are other elections coming.
i hope you will then remember your view of protesting agianst what government is doing.
i had no idea that you were against the right of citizens to protest their government
meade--there was nothing illegal about these protests.
check the first amendment.
If it were a crisis they would raise taxes.
"Oh my god! It's a crisis! Quick, make sure people have less money before it is too late!"
So the fact that the government isn't doing anything to fix the problem means there is no problem? Thanks for the laugh, garage, this place would be pretty dull without you.
No it means if there were a true crisis they would be asking everyone to sacrifice, not just off the backs of public workers.
Despite the yahoos who tend to post here--and I hope Patrick comes back with large numbers of friends so that we can have a real discussion here--
There you have it...occupy and bully... Liberal style democracy in action.
Pity that they're sending in the bush leaguers...it coulda been fun. These pipsqueaks, not so much.
lucid - vandalism isn't included in the 1A. Neither are death threats and thuggery.
No it means if there were a true crisis they would be asking everyone to sacrifice, not just off the backs of public workers.
OK, now you're switching back to Wisconsin. Here is the issue - The Republicans got elected in order to deal with the budget problems without raising taxes. That's what they're doing. If you want unionized public workers to be sacred cows, get some Democrats elected.
We have the same budget problems in Illinois with a Democratic government and what they're doing is raising taxes, firing contractors and slashing services to senior citizens and poor people. Pick your poison...either way, a lot of people will suffer.
No it means if there were a true crisis they would be asking everyone to sacrifice, not just off the backs of public workers.
Obama has already done that a few times.
"Everyone must sacrifice for the common good," he said.
Then, he jetted off to New York City for a date night with his wife, flew to Chicago for dinner, hit the golf course a whole bunch of times, went on multiple vacations to Hawaii and other places, etc.
Alex
a very stupid and meaningless answer on your part.
Are you actually dumb or just pretending?
lucid - I'm speechless. I won't continue talking to an insane person.
@BM
this place has been an echo chamber for the mentally impoverished.
it needs some intellectual variety.
but i guess you can't take the competition.
That's what they're doing. If you want unionized public workers to be sacred cows, get some Democrats elected.
We'll see some Democrats get elected sure enough. Soon. They only need three to flip the senate. Really only the dimmest bulbs believe stripping bargaining rights will fix the budget. I think you know this, but you are conservative, and you have to stay focused on the talking points.
alex--
anyone committing vandalis can be arrested.
anyone making death threats, including deranged right wingers,can be arrested.
your point is irrelevant to the hundreds of thousands of protesters who demonstrated peacefully and in the exercise of their 1st amendment rights.
try to say something rational.
Obama is already on record as saying "Everyone must sacrifice for the greater good".
Then, he went skiing in Vail, flew to NYC on a date night, headed off to Chicago for dinner, hit the golf course a couple of dozen times, flew off to Hawaii for vacation, then to Martha's Vineyard to relax after all that work etc...
lucid - signs showing Walker as Hitler is peaceful in your book? A sign showing the GOP in a coffin is peaceful in your book? You have a very funny definition of civility.
@Sharrrrk:
It was still being researched during the Assembly's special session whether or not they had actually put the power plant thing in the bill. Now, however, we know it was:
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/between-wisconsin-senate-and-assembly-vote-
@Meade:
It was never a battle to "block" the bill. It was about slowing down the process so we could look at alternatives to fixing the budget as opposed to eliminating civil rights that the state pioneered 50 years ago.
From the very first night at the capitol, throughout the hearings, and on the assembly floor, no one has contested that the bill will pass. Well, a few have, but no one with their heads screwed on thought it was possible to actually stop the bill. You were always going to win, Republicans control every branch of the Wisconsin government, no checks & balances present.
You can keep clinging the the democratically elected governor thing as an excuse to completely ignore half the people of Wisconsin and the Minority completely, but it doesn't really hold up well all things considered.
To start, yes, Walker won the election fair and square.
Walker ran on two main points: Job creation, and a promise that he would use the Federal grant given for the High Speed Rail for state transportation fixes instead. Nevermind that the Federal government made it very clear that was never a possibility, he ran on it anyway and convinced a lot of people. He never mentioned union busting as one of his primary goals, though that's been spotlighted now through his actions.
I've met and seen numerous people at the protests who admitted that the voted for Walker and now regret the decision. One thing he's done that no Democrat could ever hope to do is completely energize the liberal base and even piss off some hardcore Republicans who've never voted blue in an election.
Right now the Democrats are not fighting to "regain power", but are fighting to "regain checks and balances". I think it's a mistake to label the protestors Democrats though. Lots of them actually don't really find them more attractive than the Republicans, but the only feasible alternative.
@dylan
some of the yahoos here won't believe me, but i voted for every republican on the ticket (except one, where i voted libertarian) in the last election in my state.
but walker is making me as angry as obama/pelosi did over health care.
if we don't fight to keep government from expanding all over u, we will lose the freedom that john stuart mill said was necessary to a fully realized life.
It was never a battle to "block" the bill.
Getting a head start on the rewriting of history, eh Dylan?
as opposed to eliminating civil rights that the state pioneered 50 years ago.
Public sector unions live exclusively off of money forcibly taken from other workers by the government.
You might as well say that the rebellion in Libya is an offense against Qaddafi's civil right to rule with an iron fist.
@revenant
you have to pay people for the work that they do--even if they are teachers and you fear and envy them.
@Meade's second comment:
"illegal occupation of government buildings"
I can't imagine how the Tea Party would do this. While on the last night of the occupation, it was an incredibly diverse group of people, it really started out mostly being TA's. Or people crazy enough to spend an evening in the state Capitol.
"violence or threats of violence"
Now that's just false.
"criminal property damage, condoning or excusing criminal property damage"
See initial post on this.
"elected officials refusing to do the most fundamental aspects of their jobs such as showing up for work"
It was a tactic for delay. Plenty will argue that the Republican's aren't doing their job either by actually addressing the Dem's problems with the bill, or the million or so that have visited the capitol.
"nor have they organized illegal non-permitted demonstrations"
Got me there. Sorry about that.
"flash mobs"
Like the newsies one where a bunch of people sang "Seize the day", or that protest song from Les Miserable? The only time a mass group of people flooded the capitol out of nowhere that pops to mind was Wednesday at 6 when it was announced that the Senate had split the bill up and would be voting on it soon.
"illegal storming of legislatures as a means of blocking laws being passed by representative who were elected by a majority of voters."
Previous post addresses this.
It was still being researched during the Assembly's special session whether or not they had actually put the power plant thing in the bill. Now, however, we know it was:
Crooks and Liars. With a name like that, they've gotta be a good, authoritative site.
What I see is completely the opposite of what you're saying:
Among the items removed from the bill were nearly $250 million in debt restructuring and lapses of authorized spending to the Department of Administration, as well as a reversal on the sale of state power plants to private entities.
@Maguro
They're out there demonstrating so that they can continue to be paid as much as possible, period. They are not there for the children and they are not there for the sick and the crippled.
Exactly. Gov Moonbeam is too chickenshit to challenge the public sector unions in CA, so who is taking the cuts in his budget? The most vulnerable among us such as the developmentally challenged group homes and in-home supportive services.
The tide is turning, even in uber liberal SF, voters in spite of defeating Prop B, are now demanding the pension problem be addressed.
Just five years ago, the city was paying $175 million in retiree pension and health care costs. Next year, as the city faces an unprecedented $522 million deficit, it must pay $525 million - an increase of 200 percent."
This was written in Feb 2010, nothing has been done. There is also a problem with "spiking" where a union member is promoted just before retirement increasing the payout.
In Oakland the PD canceled the police academy for lack of funding, but they are paying former police chiefs six figure pensions. It's madness and it has to stop.
you have to pay people for the work that they do
Of course. You do not, however, have to pay them what they think they deserve, nor do you have to continue employing them if they don't work, nor do you have to give them the working conditions they feel they are entitled to.
If they don't like the pay, the benefits, the hours, or the conditions... they can quit. :)
@meade--
when you win an election, it doesn't give you a right to ignore what people think. it means you have to work to create a political process that incorporates the views of most people to the extent that they feel the government legitimately represents them.
this is what pelosi and obama failed to do with forcing through obamacare, and it is what walker failed to do in forcing through the destruction of collective bargaining.
Dylan, a question: Are you, by any chance, the same Dylan who appears in our video at the protestors' information station at the Veterans' memorial during the first week of the occupation?
@Dylan
"violence or threats of violence"
Now that's just false.
Hmmm...
18 Republican lawmakers have received death threats since voting for Gov. Scott Walker's modified budget repair bill -- and the number is climbing.
WI Democratic Representative threatens the life of female Republican after budget vote, "You're fucking dead!"
Protester threatens to break the neck of a Fox News reporter.
Video of Hitler, Gun Targets, Death Threat signs
Micheal Moore tells protesters, "This is war!"
Jesse Jackson tells protesters that there will be a rebellion.>
Plenty will argue that the Republican's aren't doing their job either by actually addressing the Dem's problems with the bill, or the million or so that have visited the capitol.
Maybe, but every last one of those people is wrong. :)
"Like a Wisconsin member of the public, to who the capitol was not supposed to be barred? Or maybe they foolishly wanted to get out? Good thing there was no Triangle Shirtwaist bong-fire action on the inside of that door."
It was after-hours, when, under the court order, the building was *supposed* to be closed. The mob was breaking into the building illegally. The door was broken *on the outside*, by people trying to get in. The doors don't lock from the inside, which would be a terrible fire hazard. But note that somebody *did* handcuff doors closed from the inside, as I have blogged. It's possible that the police did that -- we are investigating -- but it seems more likely that the protesters did.
@rev--that is why you NEGOTIATE with them--just like Chris Chritie is managing to do in NJ. Christie supports collective bargaining for teachers.
Getting a head start on the rewriting of history, eh Dylan?
Why do people keep telling me that? Second time while on here. I was there almost every night (missed a few near the end). From the very first night we knew that the bill would pass. It was just a question of how and when.
"Public sector unions live exclusively off of money forcibly taken from other workers by the government."
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3389160&pagenumber=108&perpage=40#post388530423
http://epi.3cdn.net/9e237c56096a8e4904_rkm6b9hn1.pdf
@Ann
whether they entered the building illegally is for a court to decide--not you.
when you win an election, it doesn't give you a right to ignore what people think. it means you have to work to create a political process that incorporates the views of most people to the extent that they feel the government legitimately represents them.
Interesting claim. So the civil rights movement erred in not incorporating the view that segregation and racial discrimination were good ideas?
They missed a good opportunity to help racist whites feel like the government was "legitimately representing them".
Gov Moonbeam is too chickenshit to challenge the public sector unions in CA,
Why are people fighting California's battles in Wisconsin? Well, we can't beat the Unions here, but thank God we can in the Badger State! A proxy victory here does nothing to help most of the country. Maybe it gives you hope?
On a bright note, I saw the School Play at West this weekend, and it was fabulous. Razor thin plot, but great songs.
lucid said..."@Ann whether they entered the building illegally is for a court to decide--not you."
They broke into the building after hours. Of course, it was illegal. There was even a court order about occupying the building after hours, but this isn't even a case of refusing to leave. It's breaking in! And forcing the door to the point of breaking it. Everyone knows this is illegal.
@revenant--
don't spoil an interesting discussion by playing the fool.
obviously, no one is suggesting that thiings that are illegal need to be tolerated or represetned.
your argument just makes you look foolish.
@ann
so you say. but you are not the trier of fact or of law in this case. that would require arrests and a legal proceeding--a trial.
did they break in or was the door open?
did the police encourage them to enter?
how was the door broken?
if this was illegal, why were there no arrests?
why has the court not acted to advance its own order?
"You can keep clinging the the democratically elected governor thing..."
Incredible!
@rev--that is why you NEGOTIATE with them
Under the union regime you favor, teachers are legally forbidden from negotiating their salaries and benefits.
Only the union may do that. The union reaches the deal, the union tells you what you'll be making, the union tells you how and when you can work, and then the union takes a nice fat cut of your wages.
Yay, freedom.
@Sharrrrk: I was referring to the implication that the tea party hasn't done the same thing. Both sides do the whole stupid threats and use violent rhetoric. I wasn't claiming that the Madison protests haven't had any of that. As far as actually being violent though, I've only small groups being forceful, and on Monday before the assembly was supposed to go into session.
@Meade: Yeap. I also said hi to you the other day when you were filming Friday night.
if this was illegal, why were there no arrests?
That's a question the police should be required to answer. In front of a grand jury, if necessary.
You can keep clinging the the democratically elected governor thing...
Like I said, lucid is an insane person.
"Incredible!
"
This is not the Roman Empire. We are not electing a tyrant or dictator.
The job of a governor is to serve and represent all of the people.
Walker is doing what Obama/Pelosi did--ramming through by procedural means an extreme bill that he cannot get with a decent degree of political consensus.
For Walker as for Obama, this is very bad politics in a democracy.
@Ann: Perhaps I should have added quotations around that to emphasis I was referring to the talking point moreso than the idea, but regardless keep reading, and actually respond to the points raised.
That's a question the police should be required to answer. In front of a grand jury, if necessary.
That's a little extreme. I suspect that Police make judgement calls about arresting people who they think may be breaking the law all the time.
You cannot arrest all lawbreakers.
I'm reminded of althouse's comment to -- was it a phone poller about recall elections? You don't have to do everything just because it's legal. This seems to be the other side of that coin.
Alex--you continue to embarrass yourself. I did not write the statement you are quoting and attributing to me and that you find insane. Try to keep up or be quiet while the adults talk.
obviously, no one is suggesting that thiings that are illegal need to be tolerated or represetned.
Two points:
First, racism and segregation weren't illegal at the time. That was sort of the point of the civil rights movement.
Secondly, your position has an amusing implication: since collective bargaining for teacher benefits is no longer legal, it follows that we need no longer tolerate you or see that your position is represented.
Alex--you continue to embarrass yourself. I did not write the statement you are quoting and attributing to me and that you find insane. Try to keep up or be quiet while the adults talk.
Yeah - you might want to take that advice.
Thanks for identifying yourself, Dylan. We old folks are off to bed but make yourself at home, let's keep the conversation going.
This is not the Roman Empire. We are not electing a tyrant or dictator.
Tell that to Obama. Remember "we won"?
God bless Scott Walker and his attempt to destroy the public sector unions. May he succeed. I will pray for him every day.
That's a little extreme. I suspect that Police make judgement calls about arresting people who they think may be breaking the law all the time.
Yes, but it is odd how often the judgment call's outcome happens to coincide with what is in the best interests of the police themselves.
If that mob had been busting down the doors in order to, say, prevent voting on a bill that would increase police benefits... well, is there anyone here who would care to argue, with a straight face, that the police would have responded as passively as they did last week?
You cannot arrest all lawbreakers.
With all due respect, MM, if the police cannot figure out how to arrest "all lawbreakers" when the lawbreakers have conveniently sealed themselves inside a building that is surrounded by cops, then the police probably need to find a new line of work.
Goodnight all. It's 1 am on the East coast.
Nice to have Dylan and Patrick here. Very nice substantive tone and a graceful way of making arguments.
@lucid
don't spoil an interesting discussion by playing the fool.
Yeah, leftie hacks ping-ponging talking points is fucking riveting.
Nice to have Dylan and Patrick here. Very nice substantive tone and a graceful way of making arguments.
Leftism = substance.
Yes, but it is odd how often the judgment call's outcome happens to coincide with what is in the best interests of the police themselves.
In this case, it also likely conforms with the will of the public -- many of them -- in the county.
Police in Madison do strive to be on good terms with the citizenry. I think that's a good idea, in general, for the Police.
I also say Good Night. I've been standing on a cement floor all day. My legs are killing me.
This is not the Roman Empire. We are not electing a tyrant or dictator.
Well, duh. If that was the case the fleebaggers wouldn't have been able to block the bill's passage as long as they did.
The job of a governor is to serve and represent all of the people.
No, it isn't. The job of the governor is, per the Wisconsin constitution, to faithfully discharge the abilities and duties of his office to the best of his ability. If that means that a couple of hundred thousand self-important government employees feel like they're getting a raw deal, tough cookies.
Or, as is found in the oft quoted line by Bulwer...
"The Pen is Mightier than the Sword."
I would think that this would be a core principal of the Tea Party.
Given the disposition of the Tea Partiers, it may well be; since the statement does not mean "far greater vandalism (sic) is done to humanity with words than with physical acts".
Blogger MadisonMan said...
Yes, but it is odd how often the judgment call's outcome happens to coincide with what is in the best interests of the police themselves.
In this case, it also likely conforms with the will of the public -- many of them -- in the county.
Police in Madison do strive to be on good terms with the citizenry. I think that's a good idea, in general, for the Police.
3/14/11 12:03 AM
I got two words for you:
LYNCH MOB
Just how frickin' evil are you trying to be, MM?
Right now the Democrats are not fighting to "regain power", but are fighting to "regain checks and balances".
Checks and balances against who (whom?) ? The tax payers? The Republicans?
It appears that there are individuals who are only concerned with limiting the power of the govt when Repubs are in control. If they are really in favor of limiting the power of the govt., and not just limiting the power of the democratically elected Republicans, they would support the Tea party.
People should be careful when they are wishing for a big powerful govt; it will not always be the one they want. At times in a democracy, the opposition will be in power. This is pretty obvious except, seemingly, to leftists.
Checks and balances against who (whom?) ? The tax payers?
Yeah, pretty much. :(
Right now the Democrats are not fighting to "regain power", but are fighting to "regain checks and balances"
What a mindset. The term does not apply here. "Checks and balances" is about the relationship between the judicial, legislative and executive branches of government.
It does NOT apply to a party in the minority. And it certainly does not justify Democrats using force to overturn an election or prevent elected representatives from voting.
The claim that Democrats are "fighting to restore checks and balances" is bullshit.
Dylan: I was referring to the implication that the tea party hasn't done the same thing.
They have not.
Both sides do the whole stupid threats and use violent rhetoric.
Tu Quoque. Pretend the other side does it, then claim "both sides do it" to justify your own side doing it. You have no integrity.
As far as actually being violent though, I've only small groups being forceful, and on Monday before the assembly was supposed to go into session.
Your Union Brats used force on several occasions. Hell, they attacked a bus full of congressmen. Claiming that "only small groups" used force doesn't excuse your group from being associated with threats of violence and the use of force.
"It was just one guy"
"Well, it was a small group"
"Okay then, it was still a minority"
"less than half? Yes, less than half engaged in violence, so..."
"why are those guys pointing rifles at me?"
He never mentioned union busting as one of his primary goals, though that's been spotlighted now through his actions.
Yet another bullshit talking point.
First of all, Walker isn't "busting" the union. Quit resorting to hyperbole to justify your anti-democratic values.
Second, Walker's entire political history, including 8 year as a County Executive, revolved around "busting" the unions:
"people who have watched the governor’s political rise through the years, the events of the week feel like a Scott Walker rerun"
"Unions have always been his piñata, over and over,” Mr. Larson said
http://www.chequerboard.org/2011/02/everyone-should-have-seen-this-coming/
Even the union leadership knew this was coming. During Walker's campaign, their own advertisements used the scare tactic that Walker would "bust" the unions once he was in office.
BTW Dylan, you have deliberately and dishonestly reversed the burden of proof. The question should be: "Did Walker ever promise that he would NOT bust the unions?"
I just read the entire thread of comments. Amazing, what is being sold as justification. But, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised; the ends always justify the means in the world of the leftist.
And the projection by the leftist commenters here is very telling; projecting their behavior on those (Tea Party members) that never displayed the same kind of childish high-drama seen in Madison these past 3 weeks.
This is the stuff of middle school.
I applaud Meade and Ann for suffering the fools that struggle and strain to justify their attitudes here (note I did not say actions - this is America, and if you wish to continue making an ass of yourself, have at it). As long as your attitude is 'its not fair' when talking about election results and its consequences like there is in Wisconsin, well, you'll have your chance to change that next election.
In the meantime, we that don't support your particular 'attitudes' will observe and note your behavior. Believe me when I tell you that we will not repeat your disrespectful tactics.
Forever will the unions and their political tactics be linked to a child having a temper tantrum. Make no mistake, YOU OWN IT.
One more thing.
Isn't it interesting that the left loves to throw around the 'democracy' word, like its a mandate of theirs - and somehow unrelated to election results.
Well, I am here to tell you that democracy includes the consequences of elections. Its not a predetermined or postdetermined result you can mold and shape to your particular whims.
Democracy and the misuse of the word by the left should be noted.
DT2012 - the thing is we live in a republic, not a democracy. Majority rule is always tempered by Constitutions(state & federal) enforced by a hopefully non-corrupt judiciary.
@alex
As I am keenly aware. I often remind people it is NOT a democracy BUT a representative republic.
'Democracy' as the lefties use it is a socialist buzzword, plain and simple.
DT2012 - the left relies on mis-education. I wonder how many of that vaunted 18-29 demographic even knows basic civics.
@alex
Fair to say, the left's main tool is ignorance?
When you see how everything has been so 'dumbed down', as in 'education', its not hard to draw this conclusion.
Exactly. These days if you want to teach kids that we live in a republic, the left will scream TEABAGGERS! How sad.
"Fair to say, the left's main tool is ignorance?"
Yes, but not just ignorance alone.
Ignorance coupled with the "feelings" of being on the moral high road, trumps all....ALL!
In all of photos of the demonstrations on this blog, you can see the moral high road writ large on all of the faces.
Facts of the fiscal dilemmas sweeping the nation be damned.
Capitol building completed in 1917. Assume fixtures are original and not replaceable.
Take a Virtual Reality Tour and check out that ornate Governor's Conference Room.
Capitol building completed in 1917. Assume fixtures are original and not replaceable.
There was an extensive rehab in the late 90s. Somewhere north of $100M was spent, as I recall. I'm not sure your assumption is valid.
What a desperate stretch to find "damage." Over the past 3+ weeks, hundreds of thousands of protesters show up, and you want to make a case about a hinge and a door plate? Good luck with that.
Lawya, look around the site over the last couple weeks. Althouse has documented pretty much everything the Government employess are claiming didn't happen.
Swastikas? Check.
Vandalism? Check
Desecration of Monmuments? Check
Protesters screaming at, chasing and threatening Repblicans? Check, check and check.
Face it, the riotous horde that occupied the Capitol were not peaceful or thoughtful people. They were thugs bent on using the force of the mob to overturn an election.
Lincolntf said...
"[T]he riotous horde that occupied the Capitol were not peaceful or thoughtful people. They were thugs bent on using the force of the mob to overturn an election."
What is more - they make absolutely no apologies for that. It is, for them, what democracy looks like.
This should be permanently hung around the necks of lefties, corrupt Democrats, and unions. It needs to be remembered by every Wisconsin voter - Democrat, Republican, or Independent - every year, every election, for this and every future generation. What is truly disgusting is the busting, by unions, their attempts to bust democratically elected government.
So, garagem given the known NIMBYism and hypocracy, do you admit that environmentalism is utter bullshit? I mean, greenies fight against wind farms when it impacts their view and jet to conferences rather than using tech to do video conferencing...
"Lawya, look around the site over the last couple weeks. Althouse has documented pretty much everything the Government employess are claiming didn't happen.
Swastikas? Check.
Vandalism? Check
Desecration of Monmuments? Check
Protesters screaming at, chasing and threatening Repblicans? Check, check and check.
Face it, the riotous horde that occupied the Capitol were not peaceful or thoughtful people. They were thugs bent on using the force of the mob to overturn an election."
She is showing you very selective photos, and as I mentioned earlier, I personally observed Fox News gathering the "swastike" protesters.
There are 10 times as many arrests at a single Badger football game than have occured over 3 weeks of protests, and none have involved violence. The only "violence" was Fox News' lie--easily proven by the frickin' palm trees. Did people yell at Republicans? Absolutely. But that's what happens when you ban the citizens you are hired to represent from the building and hearings in violation of the law. Their voices will be heard.
Althouse has utterly failed to show the truth here, which is --over the course of 3 weeks-- hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters, many with clever signs with nary a swastika in sight, and no violence. Sure, there are a few dozen hippies in attendance, or weirdos. But to portray this as "thugs" or "professional protesters" is an absolute lie. Hundreds of thousands of ordinary people have marched here, peacefully (but loudly). And she knows that.
So I guess that was an "amateur" bus tooling around town in Althouse's recent post, huh?
Attempting to re-write history only shreds your credibility.
Not everyone at the protests was an a-hole set on mayhem, but there were a lot of those types and they were there every single day, one way or another. Sometimes manifested by vulgar signs and shouts, sometimes by threats and vandalism.
I assume you've seen the footage of the Republicans being badgered and chased to a bus? What do you think would've happened if the "peaceful Madisonians" had gotten ahold of one of them? One of the female Republicans had just had an Assemblyman scream that she was "...fucking dead!" right to her face. Whitewash it, lie about it, try to distract from it, but that is the real story here.
Tens of thousands of protesters were not violent and did not engage in criminal property damage. But almost no protester was "peaceful" because they were all part of a mob that was attempting to physically block the legitimate functions of a democratically elected government of, by, and for the people of Wisconsin.
The only "violence" was Fox News' lie--easily proven by the frickin' palm trees.
There was no lie; the video footage was from a union rally here in California held in support of the Wisconsin teachers.
@Just Lurking: Well yeah, the Republicans. They’ve flexed the muscle of having all three houses to completely ignore the minority and a million or so who came to ask them to reconsider. If they weren’t doing something so extreme, the recall efforts and calls for wouldn’t be anywhere near as loud. It’s not a matter of limiting government; it’s a matter of making sure at least one branch of the government can slow down the movement on bills like this that should require a lot more discussion than it would otherwise have had, without having to go through such silly means as fleeing the state.
The system is still fine. Too many on the left were just much too lazy last election, or lulled by Obama’s election.
@Fen: No it’s not. You said it yourself; “Checks and balances is about the relationship between the judicial, legislative and executive branches of government”. All three of those are completely in the palm of Walker right now, and we just saw through the actions of the state government that they are completely ok with passing whatever legislation they create, with no concern to any counter arguments.
@Fen (second post): Never have I said I said violent rhethoric, or actions are justifiable. In all instances of referencing it, I’m pretty sure I’ve been good to mention that I personally think it’s dentrimental to the cause, ridiculous, and overall stupid. Not to say I don’t understand the motivation behind it, but that doesn’t mean it’s justified or right.
I’m not excusing or denouncing the various violent acts that have happened, but in my opinion, as someone whose been there since the beginning and almost every day since, in comparison to the vast numbers of people protesting peacefully, they are in the extreme minority and to hear someone claim that the entire protest has been a hateful violent practice seems like someone pointing to a macintosh apple and insisting it’s purple.
“Face it, the riotous horde that occupied the Capitol were not peaceful or thoughtful people. They were thugs bent on using the force of the mob to overturn an election.” like this.
The time the protest has turned to force widespread was when they were locked out on Wednesday when the Senate quickly separated and passed. I think it’s incredibly insulting to me and everyone else who’ve been consistently chanting “Peaceful protest” when Walker supporters get boo’ed by people, or when we talked to the police every night to ensure we both knew procedures for what to do if agitators pop up from either side, or the other gazillion things we’ve been doing. Though what do I know, I’m just revising history cause I’m a paid union thug or something.
@Fen (third post): I completely agree with you on Walker’s history. There’s nothing he’s said truer than the comment during his first press conference during the protests that went something along the lines of “if no one saw this coming, they’d have to be in a coma”. He’s been entirely consistent with his track record there thus far. There are a few signs I’ve seen from Milwaukee residents that read “I hated Scott Walker before it was cool”.
That said, it wasn’t highlighted at all in the governors campaign. I believe Barret doesn’t have a particularly good relationship with the Milwaukee unions either, so they were hesitant to call him on it. It was never brought to the foreground, and sure enough there have been plenty of investigations that he never mentioned during the race that this was his intention (though again, it should have been obvious to anyone looking at his record).
The last point is kinda moot. I don’t really get how showing that a politician never said they WOULDN’T do something means it’s ok for them to do whatever they want when in office. To be silly here, you could say Walker has also never promised we won’t go to war with Canada, or promise not to hop on one foot.
@Meade: Only around 60+ actually physically tried to block functions of a democratically elected government, and they were dragged out. The rest has been less physical and more statement based. Heck, even the hearings that continued weren’t doing anything to physically block the legislation, but rather just keep the discussion going and fortify everyone’s resolve. I think if tens of thousands of people have an issue with what the government is doing, this is exactly what they should do. Assemble at the capitol and make it known to the elected officials that they have a biggg issue with how their behaving.
I am typing way too much in response to all of this. I don't intend to change anyone's mind with these words, but do consider this an interesting venture into "the other sides" mind. Understanding where you're coming from, what your view of the situation is, the various counter-arguments for the protest.
I would really enjoy not being called a union thug, or any other derogatory comments attributed to the protestors as a whole, which by extension includes myself. I'm not lumping anyone here with stereotypes or resorting to name calling (and if I do, call me on it so I can make sure not to in the future). I disagree with you completely, but I'm sure you're all fine folk and I respect your opinions.
"I would really enjoy not being called a union thug, or any other derogatory comments attributed to the protestors as a whole, which by extension includes myself."
You don't have to enjoy it, but it's the truth. You're killing herds of pixels not decrying the violence, the threats and the vandalism, but minimizing and defending them. That's solidarity, pal. You ARE them.
That said, it wasn’t highlighted at all in the governors campaign.
And? So what.
I would really enjoy not being called a union thug, or any other derogatory comments attributed to the protestors as a whole, which by extension includes myself.
I really don't enjoy you trying to overthrow a democratic process so you can line your pockets at the expense of private-sector workers.
But I guess we'll both just have to man up and live with it.
Dylan said...
Only around 60+ actually physically tried to block functions of a democratically elected government, and they were dragged out.
Just like your co-opting of the Veterans' Memorial for your own purposes, Dylan, you are so convinced by the rightness of your cause and urgency of your goals that you're willing to sacrifice larger principles and values - your convenience came before showing simple respect for a physical symbol of what was given up by others so that we have the freedoms we enjoy today, in the case of the memorial - and in the case of mobbing the Capitol, condoning the physical blockage of a the legal actions of a legitimate democratically elected government because you don't like the proposed legislation.
That was what democracy looked like to you and your fellows in the flashing mob, seemingly safe in your bubble of Madison/Milwaukee leftism. But there is the entire rest of the state of Wisconsin who did not mob the Capitol. They will have their say at the ballot box and I think you will be woefully disappointed when you have to face the fact that you have been part of something that ordinary Wisconsinites roundly reject.
I think if tens of thousands of people have an issue with what the government is doing, this is exactly what they should do. Assemble at the capitol and make it known to the elected officials that they have a biggg issue with how their behaving.
Assembling at the Capitol and making known to the elected officials that they have a big issue with how [the elected officials were] behaving is fine. You and your fellow protesters went far beyond that and now you own it.
Why is it that Ann and Meade are beginning to sound like doddering old fools?
They're upset about clothes draped on a statue, tape on the wall, and a bent hinge?
You two need to find something better to do with your time.
Knitting, maybe?
@Lucid: The memorial thing was a big mistake on our part. They're pointing those out because they feel it exemplifies how out of control the protest has been, and how it's disregarded various norms and morals that people would (and really should) otherwise follow.
@Fen: I'm simply pointing out that the election of Governor Walker does not mean that the people of Wisconsin support the bills and plans he's currently creating. Cutting funds n' spending, yeah. Eliminating workers rights as a means of doing that... that's obviously met with some concern.
@Lincolntf: Cool, whatever helps you better stereotype me into your picture frame of what you think the protests have stood for and been all about. :thumbsup:
@Revenant: We're not overthrowing a democratic process, we're recalling a bunch of the folk. I've seen a lot of horrible signs and really bizarre costumes at the protests, but I haven't seen pitchforks and torches. I have seen a lot of clipboards though.
@Meade: We took down the signs and backed away the booth after you had pointed out that we had taped things up to the back of it. Our bad, nothing I say will rectify that situation in your eyes I'm sure. Sorry.
That doesn't seem to be a reaction to my statement, though. Only the few that were pulled away physically tried to block legislation.
I respect all the lives lost protecting the freedoms I can enjoy, and find myself incredibly lucky that I can be born into a world where those freedoms come to me without having to suffer or go through the battles of those before me. Their sacrifices are unforgettable.
I think that respect goes beyond a stone block carved into the symbolic shape. A memorial is a powerful thing, it serves as a physical reminder for citizens to take some time to think about and consider what I had just mentioned. At the end of the day though, it is simply and only that. A memorial.
I do not think that because a bunch of people hastily put some signs on the back of a memorial means that they intentionally disrespected all fallen soldiers, or that they lack respect for those men, or that it's a sign of disrespect. It was an honest mistake. Sorry.
If you really want to make this an issue of disrespect to people who died for our rights, you gotta be kidding me.
How about the workers who died for those civil rights Walker is signing away? How about the fact that it's a internationally recognized human right? How about the fact that you are right now disrespecting thousands of public sector employees by saying that they're over compensated when wealth distribution across the nation is at an obscene difference not seen since the great depression? How about you go tell the thousands that showed up that they were disrespectful because they bent a door handle or kicked in a door when fighting to respect those rights which they felt were assaulted.*
I'm not being self-righteous here. I'm looking out for people who've helped me throughout my life and if I have the choice to offer a little bit of my money to help improve the quality of any amount of lives directly, I will gladly do so. We will always strive to respect those passed and offer them remembrance when it's called upon, but we should also show some respect to those living, and doing the jobs that society has deemed should be accessible to everyone.
*(I've got loads of links n' data to back up all the claims if you want to call bullshit on any of those)
@Just Lurking: Well yeah, the Republicans. They’ve flexed the muscle of having all three houses to completely ignore the minority and a million or so who came to ask them to reconsider.
So I guess you would've been ok with Tea Partiers attempting to storm the Capitol in protest of the Obama care bill after it was passed, since Obama, the House and the Senate were all dems at that time, right? I'll presume to answer for you- no, you wouldn't have been. And neither would I.
If you don't like the outcome of the last election, then aim for the next election. Your argument that people were too complacent to vote in the last election is not a valid excuse for your attempts to disrupt govt. procedures. Or for your reps to flee the state.
If what you claim about the lefty voters is true, then you folks have noone but yourselves to blame. Suck it up. Start acting like adults instead of sore losers and maybe you'll get more respect from the taxpayers.
And Dylan, for the record, I didn't say anything negative about the WI protesters until they attempted to retake the capital bldg after they were locked out of it. I have nothing against peaceful protests. I do however have a problem when they turn into an ugly mob that intimidates people and defaces public property.
If you feel that the actions of the WI protesters have been put into an unfair light, welcome to the real world. If you join a movement, prepare to be judged by the actions of the craziest in your crowd. It happened to the Tea Partiers, and they didn't do half of the crazy things you folks did.
@dylan
i think ann and meade have weirdly overreacted to what i as a matture adult consider trivial infractions, like taping signs on the back wall of a statue. big f'ing deal. you took the signs down when asked.
ann and meade are on an obsessive hunt to find something offensive. it does remind me of my wife's grandmother.
and as for trying to block legislation and getting arrested--i'm not sure you need to overly apologize for those folkds. civil disobedience in an important part of the american tradition (i'm sure meade will write a post about my not capitalizing "american"--must mean i'm a weatherman or something0.
the boston tea party was a much more violent form of civil protest, and it also was primarily about economic issues.
no one got hurt here. some protestesters blocked acces and were arrested. all in a day's protest.
if ann and meade don't want good middle-class folks to get this angry, they shouldn't support an arrogant and oppressive government like walker's doing things that make them this angry.
and, for the record, i woyld put obamacare oin the same catergory as walker's union-bust.
@Just Lurking: Thanks for bringing up Health Care. I would have, but didn't want to make any assumptions. If the Tea Party had stormed a state building in protest of health care reform, sure, why not. They didn't, and I have a feeling that occupying any of the Federal buildings might be harder task than the State ones. If they pulled it off, more power to em.
Also, as I've said, yes, it's completely the fault of the liberals for not turning out last election. I voted, but I know plenty of people who ignored the election sadly.
That doesn't somehow invalidate their voice when the government does something they don't like.
"Start acting like adults instead of sore losers and maybe you'll get more respect from the taxpayers."
Liberals and protestors are taxpayers. Public sector employees are taxpayers.
Dylan said...
We took down the signs and backed away the booth after you had pointed out that we had taped things up to the back of it. Our bad, nothing I say will rectify that situation in your eyes I'm sure. Sorry.
That's just it, Dylan - you didn't rectify the situation. You hemmed and hawed, argued about it, called Harriet for the authority you yourselves refused to assume, and even then, when we came back the next day, you still had crap piled up around the memorial.
Sorry.
I do not think that because a bunch of people hastily put some signs on the back of a memorial means that they intentionally disrespected all fallen soldiers, or that they lack respect for those men, or that it's a sign of disrespect. It was an honest mistake. Sorry.
And here, in your own words I've bolded, is revealed the truth of your mindset. You see, Dylan, disrespect is nearly always, by its nature unintentional. And respect, conversely, is always intentional. You and your group did not show the memorial due respect when you stuck your stuff up on it, In fact, you revealed your complete disregard for what the memorial symbolized. You had one opportunity - when your thoughtlessness was pointed out to you - to redeem yourselves, to demonstrate that you understood the disrespect - intentional or not - of your act by immediately restoring the memorial to it's proper state. Instead, you argued, you stalled, and you deferred to Harriet. The video we made of the event went viral and our follow-up video the next day, showing your half-assed attempt to rectify what you'd done, revealed the truth of your sorry attitude.
Sorry.
If you really want to make this an issue of disrespect to people who died for our rights, you gotta be kidding me.
I'm not kidding you, Dylan, I've never been kidding you, and your suggestion that I am only further reveals your obtuseness and utter lack of understanding. In fact, it's symbolic and representative of tens of thousands of your fellow self-righteous demonstrators.
Sorry, Dylan. I am truly sorry for you.
Also, as I've said, yes, it's completely the fault of the liberals for not turning out last election. That doesn't somehow invalidate their voice when the government does something they don't like.
Wrong.
Decisions are made by those who show up.
We did not show disrespect for the memorial by having a couple sleeping bags touching it. You were the only two people in the entire capitol, including police who mentioned that error. We were caught off guard by two folk coming up to us complaining about something while waving a camera in our faces. We called Harriet over not for authority, but simply because she's a much better negotiator than us. The only authority we eventually called over was on the second day when you guys came back, in which you had a five-ten minute discussion with a police officer.
Thanks for completely ignoring everything I said and choosing to instead just trucking with the idea that we're self-righteous fools. The third thing you quoted even addressed this, but you chose to just use a paragraph referring to the last five words.
I'm sorry for you too Meade, if you really think that some sleeping bags touching a memorial is more disrespectful than taking away human rights from working people.
Dylan said...
I'm sorry for you too Meade, if you really think that some sleeping bags touching a memorial is more disrespectful than taking away human rights from working people.
"Human rights from working people."
And now we get to the crux of the issue.
Exactly which "human" rights are being taken from working people, Dylan? Collective bargaining? I suggest you google: "Why did Jimmy Carter and Congress end collective bargaining rights for federal workers?"
Why aren't you protesting President Barack Obama's failure to restore to federal employees what you consider to be"human rights?"
Please explain to me the incoherence of your position.
They didn't, and I have a feeling that occupying any of the Federal buildings might be harder task than the State ones. If they pulled it off, more power to em.
The reality is they would never be allowed to. They would be arrested and then vilified by most of the media and all of the Democrats. And they would probably not have the level of approval with Americans that they do, if they engaged in aggressive mob-like behaviors.
That doesn't somehow invalidate their voice when the government does something they don't like.
Well, it kinda sorta does, in the sense that since we have a representative govt. as opposed to a purely democratic one, if you don't bother to vote your views will not be represented. If these people did not bother to vote, they do not have the right to try to override the will of those who performed their civic duty.
Granted, people always have the right to protest. But they don't have the right to break the law as part of their protest, or attempt to interfere with the functioning of the govt.
Liberals/Democrats are sending the message that elections don't count unless the Democrats win; that there should be "do-over" elections until they get the govt they want. As an independent voter who only recently started voting Republican, it just reinforces my belief that the Dem party has lost it's mind.
Liberals and protestors are taxpayers. Public sector employees are taxpayers.
Valid point. I should have said "your fellow taxpayers."
I've tried to post this in the most current blog post, because I figured it'd be easier to spot there than back two pages on this one. It keeps getting deleted or removed though.
@Meade: Hi! Went home for a bit. Sorry for the delay in response. We left off with you telling me to go research Carter’s removal of Collective Bargaining rights, and accusing me of being a hypocrite for not protesting Obama when he hasn’t done anything to restore those rights.
Firstly, the Carter deal. I did google the phrase you asked me to, but that only popped up with a yahoo answers site and a few other ones which didn’t really have any worthwhile information on them. So instead I googled the reform itself, and read the Wikipedia page, Carters speech, and a few other areas to get an idea of why the reform was needed, and what it did.
The reform was needed in response to Nixon’s administration, and did much to protect the rights of Federal employees and ensure that whistle blowers would be safe, if they had a valid claim for abuse or misconduct of a Federal office. It split up the duties of the United States Civil Service Commission, which had been created in 1883, into 3 main departments.
The office of Personnel Management (OPM) deals with "recruiting, retaining and honoring a world-class force to serve the American people." An independent, non-political department aimed at moving towards a merit system and less favoritism or personal influence and deals with the hiring and firing of Federal employees.
The Merit Systems Protection Board was also split from the USCSC, and is there to help ensure Federal employees protection from political influence and general problems of upper management corruption or abuse.
The last and most relevant one to this discussion however, is the Federal Labor Relations Authority, which, according to their website: (http://www.flra.gov/introduction-flra):
“The FLRA is an independent administrative federal agency created by Title VII of the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (also known as the Federal Service Labor-Management Relations Statute) (the Statute). Pub. L. 95-454, 5 U.S.C. §7101 et seq. The Statute allows certain non-postal federal employees to organize, bargain collectively, and participate through labor organizations of their choice in decisions affecting their working lives
-resolving complaints of unfair labor practices,
-determining the appropriateness of units for labor organization representation,
-adjudicating exceptions to arbitrator's awards,
-adjudicating legal issues relating to duty to bargain/negotiability, and
resolving impasses during negotiations.”
That doesn’t sound like an abolishment of collective bargaining, but rather the recognition & protection of that right. It’s another bureaucratic layer to go through obviously, but it’s quite different than abolishment.
I looked up articles about Carter abolishing Collective Bargaining Rights but that only really popped up with unbacked claims in the comment sections of articles. If you want to shoot me a link that can detail exactly how Carter’s reform abolished those rights, let me know.
As far the Obama thing goes, I really don’t see your point. Just because Obama isn't fighting to bring it back doesn't mean he's also actively fighting to take it away like is happening around the nation.
For sources I started with just looking at the wiki page for the reform itself, then went to Carter's speech on it, and ventured over to the various home pages of the agencies it created. If you have or know of any good articles or events that detail how the act removed Federal employees right to collectively bargain, let me know.
Dylan said...
I've tried to post this in the most current blog post, because I figured it'd be easier to spot there than back two pages on this one. It keeps getting deleted or removed though.
Your comment was not deleted or removed. Blogger has different levels of spam filters and your comment, along with a number of post by other commenters, got held up in the spam filter. If a commenter ever has a question about a comment not showing up, emailing Ann Althouse directly will often resolve the problem as going into the spam filter is not something she regularly does.
@Meade: Hi! Went home for a bit. Sorry for the delay in response. We left off with you telling me to go research Carter’s removal of Collective Bargaining rights, and accusing me of being a hypocrite for not protesting Obama when he hasn’t done anything to restore those rights.
Did I accuse you of being a hypocrite? I don't think I did as accusing people of being hypocrites is just not something I normally do. If I did, please cite for me the exact comment in which I accused you of it. If you can't, I think you may owe me an apology.
I appreciate you looking into the "Carter deal." My point is this: federal public employees, even under President Carter, did not have and never have had the "human" right or the "constitutional" right to collectively bargain. Under Carter's and congress's Civil Service Reform Act of 1978, federal employees' collective bargaining rights were both strengthened and limited. Here's the point: those collective bargaining rights were adjusted precisely because they are, as you mentioned in your comment above, statutory rights. Human rights and constitutional rights cannot be limited or taken away by government. Statutory rights, by definition, can. So my question remains: Since you and your fellow protesters are so certain that Governor Walker and the Republicans are doing something immoral and illegal by legislatively restricting some of Wisconsin public employees' statutory collective bargaining rights, why are you not putting pressure on President Obama and congress to restore and expand the statutory collective bargaining rights of all federal employees? I'm not calling you a hypocrite for your inaction, I'm only suggesting that you are being inconsistent and perhaps the pass you are tacitly giving Obama should temper your anger and moral outrage toward Walker.
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