February 22, 2011
Governor Walker's Fireside Chat.
This was on the radio just now. I thought Walker did an excellent job of articulating his side of the controversy.
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This was on the radio just now. I thought Walker did an excellent job of articulating his side of the controversy.
To live freely in writing...
This was on the radio just now. I thought Walker did an excellent job of articulating his side of the controversy.
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200 comments:
BaghdadBobHouse.
Too many personal anecdotes. Honestly, I don't care that much about the opinions of random people I have never met and probably never will.
BaghdadBobHouse.
This, from Mr. Garage "he will cave in tomorrow night" Mahal?
The dude who doesn't run away gets to hold fireside chats on TV. The one who flees has to watch it in a hotel bar.
This, from Mr. Garage "he will cave in tomorrow night" Mahal?
There's a remarkably small amount of caving going on on either side. That's why I think the governor is going to come out on top - if neither side caves the one with the votes wins.
Compared to Mark Miller, Walker's speech was a grand slam.
Seriously...Miller looked like he was half in the bag and had just rolled out of bed. As pathetic of a performance by a politician as I have ever seen, especially in a situation as high-profile. I pointed this out in another thread, but that Wisconsin flag backdrop during a speech in Illinois was a nice touch.
The best part of the speech by Walker, at least for me: mentioning the WEA Trust. Finally. Its been a point that has hardly been brought up before, and its one of the big reasons schools all over the state are going bankrupt.
Can anyone think of a good reason why they are not pursuing the non-financial aspects of the bill sans the democrats? Why not take aways the dues check-offs, provide for annual recertifications, etc right now?
It was OK - could have been a lot better. He's been knocking 'em out of the park so I expected more. I'm not much for the personal anecdotes either.
Everyone garage knows hates Walker, therefore Walker is in big trouble.
See if you can spot the logical fallacy in that statement.
He failed to stress that the union leaders are selfish power hungry goons, as are the politicians they support.
I don't understand. I was assured by garage mahal that Walker would be taking to the air this evening to announce his surrender.
But it didn't happen.
My world is all askew.
Wonder if we don't like the personal anecdots because we are hard core. If we are on this site we are pretty well informed. For the general public, this might work. According to the dems, the masses love this kind personal stuff.
"Can anyone think of a good reason why they are not pursuing the non-financial aspects of the bill sans the democrats? Why not take aways the dues check-offs, provide for annual recertifications, etc right now?"
----------------------------
Believe it or not...courtesy. Walker is going out of his way to be "too nice". Gotta remember that even though the GOP has control now, Walker has to work with these guys for 4 years...and with only 2 seats separating the majority from the minority, the Senate could easily swing back to the Dems in 2 years, especially if the economy remains painfully slow to recover.
Personally, I think they are just giving the Dems until Friday, which is the deadline for the debt refinancing. If the state goes $100+ million more in the hole simply because the Dems dont show up, I think Walker then has to go for the jugular and finish it.
Why not take aways the dues check-offs, provide for annual recertifications, etc right now?
Because dragging this out serves Republican interests, for now. They're the ones who end up looking like responsible grown-ups.
Walker also gave a very good account of himself on Hannity last night, even though fighting the sniffles a bit.
PS The Zero has Andy Stern down in Columbus to try to stem the tide in OH and I've love to see Stern try to get in Kasich's face.
Or Walker's for that matter.
Help! The mighty Garage has fallen and he can't get up!
Jason,
Is there video of the D response on the tubes?
I've only seen the Gov, and I don't think he really explained why it's not good enough for him to accept the union's conceding to the budget related issues. His argument boils down to, "because I said so."
I feel like he's especially disingenuous since he's completely exempted some unions from even the budgetary issues, e.g. pensions and health care.
I don't think the Gov justified his selective targeting of only some unions, if it's true that the budget requires really tough cuts. And, I don't think that he explained why he needs to take away (some of) the unions' ability to negotiate, even though they're willing to give him all of his budget cutting measures.
Presumably the D response mentioned the Gov's inconsistencies.
"PS The Zero has Andy Stern down in Columbus to try to stem the tide in OH and I've love to see Stern try to get in Kasich's face."
--------------------
Guess where Jesse Jackson is?
The point of emailing or calling an elected official is to be heard. The "job" of the folks screening and skimming the communications should be to analyze the incoming communiques. There should be some tally of sentiment, and this should be weighed against the relevant factors-- moral, ethical, constitutional, legal, or whatever is at stake in the issue.
If the sentimental majority already conjures with the pol's take on the relevant factor-- if unions in the public sector just don't make no sense to the private sector folks, and to a lot of public sector folks, AND are driving up taxes for no good reason-- than skip the anecdotes. Go for the argument.
I just hope this thing in Wisconsin ends peacefully.
Wisconsin has long been a valuable ally of the United States
Governor Walker really comes across well. He seems very calm and balanced and sensible. He's not angry and he doesn't come across as an extremist. Just a calm, competent, serious man who is going to do the hard job he was elected to do.
He's real presidential material I think. He seems almost Reaganesque in his speaking manner...a real refreshing change from Bush and Palin.
@Holmes:
To do that at this juncture would look sleazy, like a cheat. The Dems are the sleazeballs here, and it is up to the GOP to take the high, but firm, road. It may drag things out a bit, but this worth doing and it is worth doing right.
Walker for President!
"Is there video of the D response on the tubes?"
Dunno. Im sure something will get posted at some point, perhaps on one of the TV news websites. It was about 3 minutes of Mark Miller barely saying one coherent sentence. And Im dead serious. Mumbling, stuttering. My wife, who doesnt care for politics in the least and was only casually paying attention, chimed in and said, "Who the hell is this? He cant even talk."
One of his lines was, "In a democracy, you get a little bit of what you want, you get most of what you want, but you never get all you want." I would love to salt that away for the next time the Dems have the majority and/or the governor's house and try to push through legisation that has strong GOP opposition.
Honestly...it was terrible. Even hardcore Dems would have had to turn away from his performance.
I've only seen the Gov, and I don't think he really explained why it's not good enough for him to accept the union's conceding to the budget related issues.
I'll tell you why. Because if he just accepted the union's concessions, the union would get back everything they gave up plus interest as soon the Dems were back in office. In order to make any meaningful long-term cuts, the power of the unions has to curbed.
sorry, lost my train of thought--
AND it seems morally reprehensible and just flat out wrong for elected representatives to represent their constituency by running away like teenagers-- then there's no need for anecdotes. I am the anecdote. You are the anecdote. We are all anecdotes today.
And he doesn't have any of that speaking affection that Obama has that makes him so tiresome to listen to for more then a few minutes. Walker just speaks, clearly, like a regular person. He's not trying to be The One With A Historic Mission...just a competent public servant doing his job without theatrics.
2010 low turnout mid-term Walker got 1,128,159 votes 52%.
2008 McCain got 1,262,393 votes 42%
Obama got 1,677,211 votes 56%
>
Interesting Reps are talkin' about a mandate er "we the people" after the last election when Walker got over (1) million less votes than McCain did in WI.
>
Again, generically Reps beat the Dems by (5) million votes nationally as yes, the Dems had an enthusiasm deficit in 2010 and (29) million 2008 Obama voters stayed home.
Obviously teabaggers are really, really hoping Dems, moderate independents have an enthusiasm problem/gap in 2012, eh.
Tread lightly conservatives as all fame is fleeting and the long term demos ie the youth vote, minorities etc. are all in the Dems favor as Walker, Kasich, Christie etc. may have just awakened a sleeping giant ~ Obama voters who stayed home in 2010.
>
Did I mention Walker got (1) million less votes in WI than McCain did in 2008?
I yield back the balance of my time.
"I've only seen the Gov, and I don't think he really explained why it's not good enough for him to accept the union's conceding to the budget related issues. His argument boils down to, "because I said so.""
--------------------
I disagree. Walker was quite clear tonight about the collective bargaining issue, and answered it directly. Didnt dance around it at all. And like I said, Im glad he mentioned the WEA Trust. As far as I can remember, thats the first time he has mentioned that publicly. I wish he had gone more in-depth into that, and actually gave some numbers as to just how much that WEA Trust marks up insurance that the schools HAVE to buy as part of their collective bargaining agreements.
btw, re: the recall of Walker which may or may not happen after (1) year in office.
Did I mention Walker got 1,128,159 votes in 2010 and Obama got ...
(((1,677,211))) votes in 2008.
You can do the math.
carry on
"and answered it directly"
Could you quote that answer as well as you quoted Miller, in an earlier comment?
I didn't hear the direct answer.
This, from Mr. Garage "he will cave in tomorrow night" Mahal?
Be nice. I mean the poor guy lives in the state that was one of the bastions of the 'progressive movement' and now they have a right wing GOP Governer and the legislature is GOP dominated and they're breaking the unions!
About the only place left he can call home is Cuba or North Korea.
I'll tell you why. Because if he just accepted the union's concessions, the union would get back everything they gave up plus interest as soon the Dems were back in office\
The union never made any demands to anyone. They agreed to every penny Walker asked of them. So if the union accepting his demands isn't good enough because Dems will get control back someday? Oy.
I'm asking about the Gov's comments re collective bargaining.
"2010 low turnout mid-term Walker got 1,128,159 votes 52%."
------------------------
Stop. Please.
The 2010 midterms were one of the three highest voter turnout midterms in this state's history. Just over 50% turnout, IIRC.
"Tread lightly conservatives as all fame is fleeting and the long term demos ie the youth vote, minorities etc. are all in the Dems favor as Walker, Kasich, Christie etc. may have just awakened a sleeping giant ~ Obama voters who stayed home in 2010."
---------------------------
All fame is fleeting? 2010 was a record-breaking year with regards to seats changing hands of parties, both on a national and state level.
Interesting Reps are talkin' about a mandate er "we the people" after the last election when Walker got over (1) million less votes than McCain did in WI.
Interesting that you don't acknowledge that the R's took control of the legislature.
But of course, you need to wallow in your ignorance to get through the day. So march on.
Be nice. I mean the poor guy lives in the state that was one of the bastions of the 'progressive movement
And who knew there were so many dirty hippies in Indiana??
Did I mention Walker got 1,128,159 votes in 2010 and Obama got ...
And then what?
Did you mention WI is traditionally a blue state?
Did you mention that the R's booted out Feingold?
Did you mention that the R's swept the legislature?
Did you mention you are a clueless clown?
Did I mention Walker got 1,128,159 votes in 2010 and Obama got ...
(((1,677,211))) votes in 2008.
You can do the math.
I see Jeremy has competition for Top Dumbass Commenter.
"Wonder if we don't like the personal anecdotes because we are hard core."
It's possible.
I know that part of me figures "but that doesn't *mean* anything" even when the anecdote is for my side of an argument.
OTOH, people must like them, and the best way to counter an argument by anecdote is to get your own. Walker picked good ones too, particularly the substitute teacher who won't get paid for those four days. Even while I realize it doesn't *mean* anything, I still know what it would mean to me if scheduled work got canceled. Hourly employees understand that it's not a "day off" it's a disaster.
"because Dems will get control back someday? Oy."
And, of course, if that did happen the Ds could still give back everything, including collective bargaining rights.
Duh!
Walker and the Rs don't seem to know how to make a well considered argument that stands up to the slightest scrutiny. Maybe this is why Walker didn't bother providing a justification as part of his chat.
"I'm asking about the Gov's comments re collective bargaining."
----------------------
Without going back and going word-for-word, he basically said it costs too much at the local level to have it...which is correct. He then gave an example of how at the county exec level he wanted to make benefit cuts to save jobs, but the unions didnt cave and told him to, in his words, "lay those workers off". It was very articulate way to state the point that without reform at the local level, what he does at the state level wont mean anything.
And who knew there were so many dirty hippies in Indiana??
We have our share. I tend to stay downwind of them as bathing and personal hygiene is still optional.
shiloh said...
Tread lightly conservatives as all fame is fleeting and the long term demos ie the youth vote, minorities etc. are all in the Dems favor as Walker, Kasich, Christie etc. may have just awakened a sleeping giant ~ Obama voters who stayed home in 2010.
The nice thing about the young is that they get wiser with years.
the long term demos ie the youth vote, minorities etc. are all in the Dems favor as Walker, Kasich, Christie etc. may have just awakened a sleeping giant ~ Obama voters who stayed home in 2010.
Laugh out loud funny.
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Tuesday shows that 21% of the nation's voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as president. Forty-one percent (41%) Strongly Disapprove, giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -20 (see trends).
That’s the lowest level of Strong Approval yet recorded for President Obama and the lowest Approval Index rating since November.
Keep on believing, clown!
"The union never made any demands to anyone. They agreed to every penny Walker asked of them."
-------------------
Thats because Walker did the smart thing and didnt give them the chance. Otherwise, none of these cuts would have been possible. You cant tell me for one second that all the unions in this state would have agreed to a 5% pension contribution and 12% health care contribution. If they would have, it would have been done under Doyle.
Maybe this is why Walker didn't bother providing a justification as part of his chat.
Apparently he did, it's just not justification you agree with which is par for the course in politics.
Jason
The best part of the speech by Walker, at least for me: mentioning the WEA Trust. Finally. Its been a point that has hardly been brought up before, and its one of the big reasons schools all over the state are going bankrupt.
Yes-finally.
Where's Calypso Facto?
He was all over that.
WEA Trust @ about 5:56 mark.
Did you mention WI is traditionally a blue state?
It still is as again, Walker got over (1) million less votes than a very, very weak Rep presidential candidate in 2008.
take care
The union never made any demands to anyone. They agreed to every penny Walker asked of them.
Imagine the PR coup it would have been for the unions to have voluntarily proposed, suggested and followed through on such measures. As it stands, it still looks like they (the Unions) thought them wholly unnecessary.
"Walker got over (1) million less votes than McCain did in WI."
1,262,159 minus 1,128,159 equals 134,234.
Are you a union math teacher?
shiloh said...
2010 low turnout mid-term Walker got 1,128,159 votes 52%.
2008 McCain got 1,262,393 votes 42%
Obama got 1,677,211 votes 56%
>
Interesting Reps are talkin' about a mandate er "we the people" after the last election when Walker got over (1) million less votes than McCain did in WI.
>
Did I mention Walker got (1) million less votes in WI than McCain did in 2008?
I yield back the balance of my time.
shiloh: My guess is that you received a public school education. I see that as 100,000 fewer votes than McCain. But then, we don't know how many dead people voted, because the Milwaukee Police refuse to assist the District Attorney with voter fraud cases.
I didn't listen to the speech, I read the transcripts. My opinion is that Wisconsin has a hard row to hoe ahead of it, and we are fortunate to have such an articulate man as Governor Walker. Maybe, once Friday rolls around and the State cannot refinance some debt to save money, and employees are laid off, then people will realize this is not a bluff. I rather like it that the Wisconsin Senate is now canceling direct deposit for absent Senators for their pay: missing Senators must present themselves on the floor of the Senate in order to collect their pay.
I too love the idea of Walker as president, though I don't know if I can endure four years of "I promise to create jabs" and "in Wiscansin"...
Agggh. The Northern Vowel Shift has really done its business on those midwestern accents these past couple of decades.
@garage:
And if a general strike ensues out of this, the Unions will look even worse!!!
(yes they'll step in it)
TG, you got me lol
Thanx for the correction :)
The union never made any demands to anyone.
You're forgetting that there are two sides in any negotiation.
The union isn't the only side that gets to issue demands.
It still is as again, Walker got over (1) million less votes than a very, very weak Rep presidential candidate in 2008.
Uh, you need to check your math, bozo.
From your own drooling post:
Walker got 1,128,159 votes 52%.
2008 McCain got 1,262,393 vote
That isn't a million.
It still is
I bet ole Russ disagrees...
Agggh. The Northern Vowel Shift has really done its business on those midwestern accents these past couple of decades.
You sure that's not a "bowel shift"? Your new handle reminds me of Titus!
"...he basically said it costs too much at the local level to have it..."
But, the unions are already conceding all of the budget effecting issues. Is the Gov saying that none of these concessions will actually go into effect, because they'll all be overridden by existing local contracts? In other words; the state wide changes are completely meaningless. Is that true?
"He then gave an example of how at the county exec level he wanted to make benefit cuts to save jobs, but the unions didnt cave and told him to, in his words, "lay those workers off"."
But, this time the unions have completely caved. So, this anecdote is irrelevant. Unless it's true that every local jurisdiction must also legally change the contracts. In other words; the changes in Madison have no effect until each individual locality also passes the changes.
If this locality autonomy is so strong, can some localities decide not to pass the Gov's changes, if these localities are particularly satisfied w/ the status quo? And, what if some localities want to pass tougher measures?
Are we sure that the state-wide changes need additional non-collective-bargaining-law-making in each locality, before they become effective?
I don't think garage ever made it across that river of piss.
Did I mention Walker got (1) million less votes in WI than McCain did in 2008?
By which you're trying to say he got fewer votes than his opponent? The governor wouldn't be able to do anything by himself - what really matters here is the people have given the Republicans control of the legislature.
You sure that's not a "bowel shift"?
Could be that too! But: Northern Cities Vowel Shift
Governor Walker rocked! The Democrats are going to have to put the varsity on the floor if they are going to try and beat him. I hope that he has the fortitude to follow through on the course he has set.
Oh, and it occurs to me that laying workers off costs a lot of money, too, because they'll receive benefits and unemployment and stuff. Does anyone know how much that might be? I couldn't even ball park it, but it makes the... what? opportunity cost?... of keeping a worker vs. laying off a worker a bit closer to a good idea financially instead of *only* a good idea because you're a nice guy.
But it's not ridiculous to imagine the union leaders (who aren't the ones going to be laid off in any event) preferring laying off some workers to make sure that there is no backwards movement in benefits for those still employed, particularly if the compensation packages for those let go are reasonably cushy.
As for the other... I'm actually sort of shocked that the teacher's union can force the state to purchase health insurance from the teacher's union. If someone simply asked me to guess if that was even legal, I'd guess that it wasn't. Conflict of interest, at the least.
And if school districts chose the much cheaper state program (as Walker suggested) the financial hit to the union organization would be severe. Big money corner-office protecting itself. (Let teachers pay the difference in the premium and "keep" the health care they prefer, just like Obama promised they could.)
And, of course, if that did happen the Ds could still give back everything, including collective bargaining rights. Duh!
They could, but public support for unions in general, and government employee unions in particular, has been declining for years. The next decade is going to see a lot of nasty budget cuts and tax increases, both at the federal level and in every state in the union. I doubt a public that is being forced to stomach paying more for less will be in any mood to generously reward state employees.
Democratic support for government employee unions will go the way of Republican support for homophobia. Neither is a viable long-term political strategy.
Wisconsin Constitution, Article 4, Section 28 (http://bit.ly/fxNRl3):
Article IV, §28
Oath of office. Section 28. Members of the legislature, and all officers, executive and judicial, except such inferior officers as may be by law exempted, shall before they enter upon the duties of their respective offices, take and subscribe an oath or affirmation to support the constitution of the United States and the constitution of the state of Wisconsin, and faithfully to discharge the duties of their respective offices to the best of their ability.
And if a general strike ensues out of this, the Unions will look even worse!!!
Agreed. There are enough people out of work that sort of foolishness is going to generate far more antipathy than support. I hope they do it.
My opinion is that Wisconsin has a hard row to hoe ahead of it...
Wisconsin has the 40th worst environment for business because of taxes and something like the 11th highest in property tax and 14th highest in personal income tax.
****
the long term demos ie the youth vote, minorities etc. are all in the Dems favor
Oh man your timeliness is spot on:
Nestled within America's once-thriving coal country, 87-year-old Ed Shepard laments a prosperous era gone by, when shoppers lined the streets and government lent a helping hand. Now, here as in one-fourth of all U.S. counties, West Virginia's graying residents are slowly dying off.
Hit by an aging population and a poor economy, a near-record number of U.S. counties are experiencing more deaths than births in their communities, a phenomenon demographers call "natural decrease."
Don't worry, as your other posts have demonstrated, you can't handle basic math...
"Unless it's true that every local jurisdiction must also legally change the contracts."
If the *state* doesn't issue those contracts, of course they have to be negotiated locally. Schools and services are more often local than not. Every time Walker opens his mouth he says something about giving local governments the ability to balance their own budgets (much of which is paid by the state, just like schools get state funding per pupil, but not controlled by the state.)
Are the run-away anti-democratic democrats paying for their own hotel rooms?
Scott Walker, like the Honey Badger, kicks ass.
Yep those outside protestors have made it all the way up to Green Bay and infected the Packers and the thousands of other folks who are protesting across the state-- I am going to have to reduce my self and call this guy a weasel.
"Are we sure that the state-wide changes need additional non-collective-bargaining-law-making in each locality, before they become effective?"
-----------------------
Yes.
If the collective bargaining stays in place, there is no way for local boards and school boards to hold down costs at all. Walker is going to cut state aid on a large scale, meaning municipalities and schools are getting less money to work with...meaning, they are going to have to make cuts. They (for obvious reasons) will want to fire as few people as possible, so the next step is to cut wages/benefits. If collective barganing for benefits remains in place, the unions simply wont budge...meaning it will force the muncipalities and school boards to simply fire people altogether. Which, in turn, looks bad for Walker.
Also keep in mind that Walker's plan eliminates union dues being automatically taken from checks. Dont think for one second that its this issue, and NOT the collective bargaining issue, is the union's #1 priority.
Oh and I read something shocking and I wish I knew where to find it but if Wisconsin simply continued forward and raised taxes to make up the difference-the average citizen of WI personal income tax burden would have to increase to an average of 42% of their income.
*****
Wisconsin has the 40th worst environment for business because of taxes and something like the 11th highest in property tax and 14th highest in personal income tax.
Walker can help this and promulgate a new climate of "We Mean Business"
wv = "actangs"
Goes together with achtung like hand and glove.
Well, Ann, it looks like you have quite a different crowd reading your blog today. They must assume since you are a UW professor that you buy into all that bitter leftist rig-a-ma-role. And, congrats on all your comments appearing in the NY Times and WSJ. It was fun to see you go nationwide. Good for you.
chikelit
Ya I'm wondering why he didn't mention that-WI is literally surrounded by states with better environments-Illinois is 23rd.
****
A lot of people keep saying that the unions have a greed to Walkers concessions. Have they? I am on a local board of education and I have not seen a ratified agreement for a new contract with these provisions.
The entire story that the unions have agreed to anything is BS as there is no-one in Madison that can commit the locals to anything. Mary and Marty do not have that power.
In the real world the new contract and work rules are much more important than the payments to pensions and about equal to the healthcare co-pay.
Wen we have to reduce staff by seniority and licenses only we end up with High School Band directors getting pink slips and E school music teachers who could care less about Marching Bands getting slotted for the position. This does nothing good for the kids, and drums up controversy where there should be none.
How about coordination of benefits? Almost every private sector health plan has had those provisions for 25 years requiring that both members of the couple have insurance if it is available at their employer and that fairly shares the family costs. Not in the public sector by and large.
Given the freedom to actually run our district and not just to be the tax collector for the unions we will be able to design competitive packages that attract the high quality staff we want and rewards those that get results for kids.
Those of us that are elected to run the schools in our communities take that responsibility seriously. lamphor
What Jason said is exactly correct. Localities, could, if they somehow had more money than they knew what to do with despite the large cuts in state aid, theoretically go the other way of course. But given the current fiscal reality, Walker is trying to enable them to cut benefits *instead* of cutting staff, because locally the union will always insist on the latter.
"so the next step is to cut wages/benefits. If collective barganing for benefits remains in place, the unions simply wont budge..."
This is not a logical argument. If the health care and pensions are state-wide programs, the localities won't be able to tinker w/ them.
So, if the unions lose collective bargaining with regard to the state-wide issues (HC and Pensions), the only thing they'll be able to negotiate will be their wages (which seem to be more controlled at the local level, and wages will still be subject to collective bargaining). Therefore, the unions will be especially belligerent when negotiating the only thing they can negotiate. Which will make them even less likely to cave, which will further exasperate the end game you're proposing, i.e. forcing firings.
And, why didn't Walker explain why he isn't going after all public unions, if the budget situation is truly so bad.
Art M said...
A lot of people keep saying that the unions have a greed to Walkers concessions.
Artfully put!
This is from taxfoundation.org back in 2007:
Wisconsin's tax burden is 12.3 percent of state income in 2007-- ranking it 7th highest in the nation. Wisconsin has ranked in the top ten of our tax burden study every year for the 37 years we have calculated them-from 1970 to 2007. 7th is the lowest rank for Wisconsin since 1980.
However, if the $15.2 billion tax increase were in effect for 2007, Wisconsin's tax burden would increase to 19.3 percent and rank 1st- 5.2 percentage points higher than Vermont's 14.1 percent tax burden that currently ranks highest nationally.
If we count the other tax increases passed by the Senate (approximately $1.6 billion more) Wisconsin's tax burden will be 20.1 percent. To give you an idea of how big that is, the federal government will take 21.7 percent of the nation's income in taxes in 2007.
If the Wisconsin Senate's plan becomes law, Wisconsin taxpayers will face the highest state and local tax burden ever, and their tax burden-federal, state and local-- will exceed 40 percent of their income.
taxfoundation.org
Like Reagan, Walker has been tempered by actual negotiations with union bosses. To give an inch is an invitation for them to take a mile. He's been in the trenches and that's what he's learned. He's gonna hang tough.
shiloh said...
2010 low turnout mid-term Walker got 1,128,159 votes 52%.
2008 McCain got 1,262,393 votes 42%
Obama got 1,677,211 votes 56%
And all the Conservatives that stayed home in '08 sure came out in '10.
Interesting Reps are talkin' about a mandate er "we the people" after the last election when Walker got over (1) million less votes than McCain did in WI.
As they say, "Losers always sing, 'Shut up and deal'".
Again, generically Reps beat the Dems by (5) million votes nationally as yes, the Dems had an enthusiasm deficit in 2010 and (29) million 2008 Obama voters stayed home.
The Lefties better get used to it. That deficit is getting bigger by the day, what with inflation, Americans being raped and murdered overseas and the country drowning in debt while the Obamas chow down on Waygu steak as they tell the rest of the country how to live.
Obviously teabaggers are really, really hoping Dems, moderate independents have an enthusiasm problem/gap in 2012, eh.
They don't need to. Rev Wright's chickens are coming back to roost in their home coop. Two more years and the Left is going to be on suicide watch.
Tread lightly conservatives as all fame is fleeting...
Wow, what a shattering insight! I'll bet he wasn't saying that when RahmBO was talking about his Permanent Democrat Majority.
and the long term demos ie the youth vote, minorities etc. are all in the Dems favor as Walker, Kasich, Christie etc. may have just awakened a sleeping giant ~ Obama voters who stayed home in 2010.
No, the demos favors the Roe Effect, because the Lefties have aborted their kids or limited themselves to 1 or 2 and a lot of Conservative families have 3 or 4 kids, sometimes more.
The sleeping giant was the Tea Partiers. The biggest turnout in a midterm election in years and with the sterling record of The Zero, it will only get worse for the Left.
PS I have a feeling shiloh/PB&J is our real America's Politico - if he actually believes his own drivel.
Therefore, the unions will be especially belligerent when negotiating the only thing they can negotiate. Which will make them even less likely to cave, which will further exasperate the end game you're proposing, i.e. forcing firings.
There will be constraints there as well. Increases in excess of COLA will have to be put in front of the other stakeholder: the voters.
shiloh wants to play with five month old numbers to warn off Walker and the WI Senate. Perhaps shiloh, the AFSCME, and their myrmidons ought to digest these much more recent numbers Obama, Democrats Sliding in Polls
Tread lightly, indeed. All glory is fleeting, but in the case of the Democrats specifically and the Left generally, it has well and truly flown.
Why Walker is a weasel: According to Sunday’s Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, “county debt has risen 85 percent under Walker, according to Cynthia Archer, the county’s director of administrative services.” [Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 10/3/10]
The enormous increase in debt is due in part to Walker’s $400 million investment in a risky stock market scheme because he failed to clean up the county’s pension mess. Walker’s 85 percent debt increase is also documented in the county’s financial report, which was released after the election and after he made all the false claims about lowering the debt in Milwaukee.
"This is not a logical argument. If the health care and pensions are state-wide programs, the localities won't be able to tinker w/ them."
Which sounds like what Walker is saying when he says that the law will *change* the situation so that local governments are able to make budgeting choices that they can't make now.
r-v yet despite that Walker was elected a month later 52-46.
I think that everyone, right and left, should read these words of wisdom from Walter Russell Mead.
(caution, long...best to read fully to the end)
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/02/22/race-to-the-bottom/
and
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/02/18/the-madison-blues/
"This is not a logical argument. If the health care and pensions are state-wide programs, the localities won't be able to tinker w/ them."
----------------------------------
Yes, they can. There is a provision in the bill that Walker is giving the authority for localities to deal with the unions in the same way he is. Its all tied into the collective barganing part of the bill. That's what Walker is referring to when he says "the tools" to help local boards and school boards balance their budgets. It means he is giving them the right to do the same as he at the state level.
"Therefore, the unions will be especially belligerent when negotiating the only thing they can negotiate. Which will make them even less likely to cave, which will further exasperate the end game you're proposing, i.e. forcing firings. "
---------------------------
That cant happen, either. Under current law, unions can only bargain for wages at 1% more than the CPI. That wont change with the new Walker bill.
"And, why didn't Walker explain why he isn't going after all public unions, if the budget situation is truly so bad."
------------------------------
He will in his full budget that comes out in a week or 2...that will be something that the local municipalities will deal with at their own discresion. You saw how the teachers and state workers acted after the budget bill was introduced...Walker couldnt have full police and fire units come to Madison and basically strike if they had been included in this bill. It was a smart stroke keeping police and fire in the state aid cuts part of the budget.
anyways Walker is going to cave. I mean garage is super confident for a reason.
Walker, that weasel, restructuring county obligations to fully fund the employee pension without cutting services! What nefarious plot will he think of next!
P.S. from Politifact:
"Milwaukee County’s dilemma stemmed from three sources.
First was the mega-generous pension benefits deal for employees approved by Walker’s predecessor, Tom Ament. It was outrage over the pension deal that drove Ament from office in 2002. Second, stock market losses slammed the county’s pension fund, along with those of many other such funds. Finally, Walker and the County Board underfunded pensions by $41 million from 2004 to 2008.
By late 2008, the county faced a nearly $53 million payment from its budget to the pension fund.
Instead of making the payment through tax increases or budget cuts, at Walker’s urging the County Board took a borrow-and-invest approach using pension obligation bonds. The county issued $400 million in pension-related notes on March 19, 2009, a county summary of the plan shows.
That partially shores up the county pension fund right now, but the county must repay the debt over 25 years. If the invested funds earn 8 percent, it could save the county $240 million. If they don’t earn at least 6.19 percent, the county could wind up paying extra.
In year one, the bond deal meant the county paid in $8.5 million less than it would have without the deal."
And, why didn't Walker explain why he isn't going after all public unions, if the budget situation is truly so bad.
My immediate answer to that would be yo have to familiarize yourself with the pay structure of those in the teacher's union.
There is a list and I can produce it for you-I spammed half of it here at Althouse and I didn't have the heart to spam the rest of the list but there are at least 200 administrators making-
$145,000 + Benefits.
That's more than a Brigadier General's annualized pay in 2005. ( I can only find monthly pay charts for after 2005)
But to me there is no way in hell you need essentially 200+ Two Star General administrators in the state of Wisconsin.
Hell I don't think the army is as top heavy-because I didn't go through it all.
And heres' the thing of it the rank and file teacher at the bottom of the pyramidal structure is getting-
screwed.
They aren't making anything near that-it is really stratified.
The gulf between the mass of the teachers and the administrators is shocking.
So basically short answer the teacher's union with all their administrators are costing Wisconsin a hell of a lot more.
****
Too many personal anecdotes.
Those anecdotes were the velvet glove around an iron fist. Walker had to keep support strong from all those nice people who can't stand confrontation while simultaneously leaving no doubt in Unionland that he won't flinch. He did both. Good job.
RV
Don't forget the Wackenhut debacle where Walker declared an "budget emergency" [sound familiar?], fired union security guards, [sound familiar?] hired a British security firm, Wackenhut, that ended up costing taxpayers an extra 500,000. Turns out the guy he put in charge of Wackenhut’s security at the courthouse had a criminal record and had served prison time. What an absolute train wreck.
What's up with that whiny bitch accent?
Oh that's right. He's from Wiscansin.
The fact that you put this much faith into someone who's never had anything for lunch in the past twenty years other than a brown bagged ham sandwich is rather remarkable.
Proceed with the ritual stroking of the good hair guy.
It would be interesting to compile statistics regarding aggregate academic achievement as a function of administrators per student. I'm willing to bet that private and charter schools with minimal administrative staff outperform the best public schools with typical staffing levels.
edutcher, one couldn't have forgotten about turdblosson's permanent Republican majority pipe dream as it was only a few years ago.
Unfortunately re: my math error, rove and I now have something in common as his The Math before the 2006 mid-term was as accurate as mine tonight.
>
LBJ's '64 landslide pundits say how will Reps ever recover?
Vietnam/'64/'65 Civil Rights Acts/Race Riots/'68 Chicago Dem convention disaster = Nixon elected in '68 w/43.4%
Nixon's '72 landslide again pundits say how will Dems ever recover?
Agnew resigns in disgrace!/Watergate/Nixon resigns in disgrace! = Carter elected in '76.
Permanent majority talk is quite foolish.
btw, we need more pundits!
Scott Walker, who art in the capitol, hallowed be thy hair plugs.
Ritmo reads a line of text and hears an accent. He's off his meds again.
His features are so strong, and conservatively angular, yet with a bit of a soft modern roundness to them as well.
I think conservatives should define their party based on the angularity of their candidates' solid facial features, the orderliness of their hair, the eyeballs that focus like a laser on the objects that have defined their goals.
Ritmo - you are confused if you think conservatives have faith in politicians. We are an utterly cynical lot - and simply hope for the best. Oh and why the elitism on lunches? SO what if the man brown bags it?
What's up with that whiny bitch accent?
Oh that's right. He's from Wiscansin.
Talk about ad homonym attacks...
What medications would have led you to believe that I was incapable of hitting the "Play" button on the embedded video and listening to the feed, Johnny Quest?
Picky, picky.
Do you play with your poop, too?
Ritmo - funny you seem to be fixated on trivia. all you do is mock conservatives. You refuse to engage on the issues. I pity you.
OK wait a minute the administrators aren't unionized?
I just got this from The Post Crescent:
Collective bargaining changes in a budget repair bill proposed by Gov. Scott Walker wouldn't apply to administrators, who are not in unions. But other pieces of the plan would, such as a requirement that all workers who pay into the Wisconsin Retirement System contribute 50 percent of the annual pension payment.
Post Crescent
It's really annoying this reporter does good work but I never can get the first page of his articles to load.
***
Jason,
So, you're saying that the localities will be able to require the unions to pay 100% of their health care, and 100% of their pensions. And, none of this would be subject to collective bargaining.
So, the new law will allow school districts to stop paying any health care or pension costs, if the local authorities unilaterally decide to do so.
This sounds like an excellent way to push the competent educators and administrators out of the system. Especially, since you've stated that there is no way that salaries can be raised to compensate for the benefit cuts.
The only folks who will stay will be the real losers, who can't do anything else.
Not that I'd ever live in WI (to cold, to far from stuff), but I'd really avoid the place since I know that y'all are choosing to run your schools into the ground. It doesn't help that your Gov's stated motivation is the pursuit of a vendetta against political adversaries from the past.
Different strokes, for different folks.
Walker's accent sounds real and unaffected. I wonder if he says pop or soda.
pbj - Walker's vendetta would be useless if the people weren't disgusted with the WEA.
I don't care about his brown bagging (resist urge to insert political wordplay joke here). It's his obsessively regular personal habits and inability to enjoy any variety with his schoolchild idea of a mid-day meal which alert you to the fact that he's whacked.
Ritmo - who are you to judge a man based on his everyday habits? If I judged you based on your commenting, you'd be the lowest form of pond scum. But I know in real life, you're a real mensch right?
Roesch Voltaire-
You have a link for that?
*****
Seriously, nothing other than a ham sandwich every day for twenty years? That sounds like behavior that would sound off alarm bells in psychiatrists' offices and dating scenarios across the country.
What medications would have led you to believe that I was incapable of hitting the "Play" button on the embedded video and listening to the feed, Johnny Quest?
FYI -- it's Jonny Quest -- not Johnny Quest. Spelled just like Jonny Erpenbach.
@Ritmo
"I think conservatives should define their party based on the angularity of their candidates' solid facial features, the orderliness of their hair, the eyeballs that focus like a laser on the objects that have defined their goals."
I see you're in fine form tonite - tired of bagging off about Ann's chasing salt trucks around Madison?
Walker is married to Tonette, and they have two children. So much for his ham sandwich habit causing dating difficulties.
But I know in real life, you're a real mensch right?
That's right. Thank you, thank you verymuch. (Takes a bow).
You are mistaking the concerns that motivate my commenting for much more egregious behavior.
"who are you to judge a man based on his everyday habits?"
Yes, it's much better to invent BHO-colors-his-hair-to-match-his-speech theories, like Althouse does.
shiloh said...
edutcher, one couldn't have forgotten about turdblosson's permanent Republican majority pipe dream as it was only a few years ago.
No idea what he's talking about, but then he doesn't either.
I just heard that Wisconsin has suspended directs deposits of Senators paychecks. If they want their paycheck they must come into the Senate Chamber to pick it up. Don't know if it is legal but it's an interesting gambit!
DT2012 - keep the angry animal avatars comin'
----I don't think he really explained why it's not good enough for him to accept the union's conceding to the budget related issues. His argument boils down to, "because I said so."---
No, his arguement is too complicated for you to follow.
For the others who can follow: He is changing the rules so the counties and cities can enter into negotiations and not have to struggle with the non-wage issues. Because the bought politicians find it easy to slip three extra sick days or some other costly non-wage benefit to the union and the public can't see it.
"So, you're saying that the localities will be able to require the unions to pay 100% of their health care, and 100% of their pensions. And, none of this would be subject to collective bargaining."
---------------------
Come on, dont be stupid. Nobody is going to do that...you wont get anyone to work there. My guess is that the figures will likely be in line with what Walker is proposing right now. Perhaps some will be more or less, depending on the financial status of the municipality.
"So, the new law will allow school districts to stop paying any health care or pension costs, if the local authorities unilaterally decide to do so."
----------------------
Schools and municipalities are two different entities. The state provides money to both. And like I said, no school is going to force its teachers to pay everything....you wont get anyone to teach there.
If the bill passes as Walker wants and the figures (5% pension, 12% health care) go through, I would be willing to bet less than 5% of the public and teacher workforce actually quits, despite all the hand-wringing that is going on in the capitol right now.
who are you to judge a man based on his everyday habits?
I'm not saying he's a bad person for not figuring out how to develop a taste for something other than a ham sandwich in twenty years. He's just weird.
Not Buffalo Bill weird. Rain Man weird. Another guy who's obsessive and bizarre rules prevented him from living life.
Judge Wapner! Time for Judge Wapner!!!
Time for my ham sandwich!
Will Scott Walker allow exceptions for K-Mart?
Ritmo - what's more bizarre is your fixation on Scott Walker's lunch habits. Really I never heard of such a thing, you creep me out.
And with regards to the schools, this is where the WEA Trust comes in. If schools dont have to buy their health insurance through WEA (the union), they can shop around and get much better rates for similar plans. So the savings for schools will be astronomical.
Not Buffalo Bill weird. Rain Man weird. Another guy who's obsessive and bizarre rules prevented him from living life.
And yet, for all that, he's the governor of Wisconsin and you're just some random douchebag typing on the internet.
Funny how that works.
@Alex
Animals are our friends.
Not in the liberal kind of way, mind you.
Do you think Ritmo keeps any animals?
If so, what would they be?
"no school is going to force its teachers to pay everything....you wont get anyone to teach there."
Why not let them be in on the negotiations? If you don't talk to them you can't possibly know where the tipping point is.
Oh great.
Aaron Worthing @Patterico's
Breaking DC District Court Upholds ObamaCare.
***
@C4
"Judge Wapner! Time for Judge Wapner!!!
Time for my ham sandwich!
Will Scott Walker allow exceptions for K-Mart?"
Window pane?
Mushrooms?
Ecstasy?
There's Maguro with the obsequious leader-worship that defines conservative ideals.
Governor of Wisconsin? Pretty state and a pretty capitol, but I could give a fuck and so could the 95%+ of the rest of the country.
I'm not aware that holding office absolves you from being a douchebag accountable to public opinion, Maguro. But you go and hold onto that thought for as long as you want to.
"Why not let them be in on the negotiations? If you don't talk to them you can't possibly know where the tipping point is."
--------------------
School boards negotiate with teachers every contract. They know what they would accept and what they wont. Dont think for one second that Walker doesnt know either.
Did I mention Walker got 1,128,159 votes in 2010 and Obama got ...
--- Did I mention that the Tea Party flipped the Wis Senate, the Governorship, the Assembly to all Republican.... for the first time since 1932? Oh, and we shit canned Rusty Feingold...
Obama is - 20 in the polls, and he attacked Walker harder than he attacked Mubarek.
We've never had unemployment like this after a recession, gas is heading for 5 dollars a gallon, and in a year inflation will be biting those of us who like to eat.
Do the math...Obama is toast
I can't remember what that's from, Don't Tread, but have a feeling there's a movie reference that I should be getting. Something with the word "troopers" in the title....? ;-)
Ritmo - if you're so superior why are you stuck in Montana? Literally bumfuck USA.
I kept a lot of different pets when I was a kid, and more normal ones as an adult. So it depends which phase of life you caught me in.
@C4
"I can't remember what that's from, Don't Tread, but have a feeling there's a movie reference that I should be getting. Something with the word "troopers" in the title....? ;-)"
Chong?
"School boards negotiate with teachers every contract. They know what they would accept and what they wont. Don't think for one second that Walker doesn't know either."
So, if the pols will never push the union beyond what the members would accept, why get rid of a process that prevents the pols from pushing the union beyond what the members would accept?
I'm not in Montana; I just like the state. It's pretty like WI and no speed limit during the day - at least that's how it was last time I was there. But almost everyone here should know by now which region I'm at. Trooper does. So do PB & J and A.J. - even if the latter feels a little more pathologic about that.
LOL, Ritmo. It's not leader worship, just stating facts to say that Scott Walker is slightly more functional and successful in life than you, a garden-variety internet troll. Despite all the ham sandwiches.
The only folks who will stay will be the real losers, who can't do anything else.
Doesn't that tell you why they wouldn't do that?
If nothing else, good schools make better neighborhoods and higher home value.
Hey madawaskan, I took a vacation day to ski in the north country's foot of new powdery snow today. Thanks for keeping up the good statistics fight without me! I found out yesterday that the Budget Repair Bill does indeed address the WEA Trust monopoly. So glad. Easy savings by shopping through the state multi-provider co-op.
ps--I've been mostly skimming through the posts and might have missed something you've already said, but all good with your son in China?
I can bet you anything I'm happier than Scott Walker. And more irreverent. That's part of the key, in fact. Trooper knows. ;-)
You guys really need to read your bible more often. Good book, that.
"So, if the pols will never push the union beyond what the members would accept, why get rid of a process that prevents the pols from pushing the union beyond what the members would accept?"
----------------------------
Because the lack of state aid Walker is sending this budget (the next 2 years) will force school boards to push the union to a number that they wouldnt accept otherwise. Like I stated earlier...there is no way that Walker would have gotten the 5% pension and 12% health care contributions buy going the "normal" route. And if the dont agree to a contract, Walker has no idea what to set his budget at...and remember that he needs to set a balanced budget under law. Its something he has been forced to do, since he is refusing to raise taxes and/or borrow money.
Maguro, thanks for the giggle back at ya, but seriously. Are you really saying that the Republican key to a good life, or a life well-lived = Power and Stuff?
Miller was horrible. What this union puppet doesn't get is that he believes in a government that can give you anything can also take it away. Well, the govt gave collective bargaining rights to the public employees (God sure as hell didn't) and govt can take it away. It was a big mistake and now is the time to correct it.
What's clear in this whole thing is that Walker has the interests of his state in mind, while Miller and the other Fleebaggers only represent the interests of their special interest puppet masters - the union goons.
But their way doesn't work anymore. The people who pay the bills are broke, largely b/c of them. Their days in power are numbered. They're literally on the run. Eventually, the undue influence of public unions will be over. America can't wait.
Ok, I'm halfway through the guy's speech, and it's not bad and seems well-intentioned.
But I'm still not convinced that he's motivated by much more than doing the bidding of whomever bankrolled his campaign.
Maguro, thanks for the giggle back at ya, but seriously. Are you really saying that the Republican key to a good life, or a life well-lived = Power and Stuff?
Not really...just pointing out that it's possible to "live life" and do what you want to do while eating ham sandwich for lunch every day. Politics is Walker's thing and he's been very successful at it. Just because being governor isn't your bag doesn't mean that Walker (or Doyle or Pat Quinn or whoever) isn't really "living life". Whatever that means.
Calypso Facto-
Skiing? Color me jealous-I've just started trying to learn.
Walker hit the WEA Trust-I sent it to Costa @NRO who interviewed him that same day. Maybe they thought if we thought it was a great idea-they should highlight it in today's speech, who knows?
Robert Costa has been all over the story-he was camping out in Wisconsin. He's been doing a terrific job-I like when they go on scene.
As to my son in China-he works there-so he is obligated to stay another year.
Hopefully the Chinese don't get too nervous w/ the world events.
I've got a feeling I'm going to have to worry till he gets stateside.
Miller sounds like he's been taking public speaking lessons from Serene Branson's migraine.
(I)t's possible to "live life" and do what you want to do while eating ham sandwich for lunch every day. Politics is Walker's thing and he's been very successful at it.
Yeah, you've got a point. I really did go overboard with heresay-derived snark at the expense of a pretty decent speech and an agenda that sounds reasonable.
Why can't you guys get more Republicans like this guy? He actually makes sense and seems concerned with keeping the state of affairs well-run in the near and long-term.
Walker hit the WEA Trust-I sent it to Costa @NRO who interviewed him that same day. Maybe they thought if we thought it was a great idea-they should highlight it in today's speech, who knows?
good stuff, you two.
Why can't you guys get more Republicans like this guy? He actually makes sense and seems concerned with keeping the state of affairs well-run in the near and long-term.
They're nearly all like this guy. You only pay attention to the small handful who aren't.
The fault is in yourself, dear Brutus, not in your stars.
Maybee
You're getting to the point that I first made when this thing started. And, Art mentioned it too. Jason's assurances that the pols won't cut deep enough to hurt retention further confirms that the Gov is avoiding the real problem at the same time he's not going to save much more that the unions would have agreed to anyway.
I have no idea why cons aren't pissed at the Gov for making this big fuss over these benefits instead of going after the policies that keep bad teachers and administrators in their jobs.
That's where I'd put my political capital.
I want to have the best schools in the country, and the world. To get there I'm willing to pay some serious dough because the community will make it back in the long run.
Instead of all out war focused on squeezing a few more percent on HC or pensions, I'd go after the ways unions hinder student progress in the classroom.
Instead of being wise, Walker seems like a vindictive, shortsighted man, who says he's motivated by political battles from the past. Not. A. Leader.
If he's serious about saving jobs at the expense of the (supposedly) union-preferred strategy of merely keeping wages and benefits high regardless of who loses jobs, then he deserves praise, in my book.
Honestly, how much do you think we could decrease unemployment if the workweek was simply shortened by a reasonable amount, reflective of this new economy and in keeping with the decreases that occurred after other periods of sustained increases in labor productivity?
Americans are so short-sighted.
@George, have you noticed that the only Democrat since JFK who didn't screw up the economy was a member of the DLC?
And that the DLC is now a deceased organization?
Sorry Biggie, but I seriously can't see an ounce of similarity between this guy and a beleaguered yet much admired leader of his movement, who can't manage to remember to mention "keeping American spirits high" without writing it on her hand and makes reality teevee gigs her most important priority.
I didn't see anyone link to this, so here's the clip of Mark Miller's response to Walker's address:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVA4ktlH3u0
Nice work with NRO, madawaskan. You're quite the mover and shaker apparently!
As to skiing, I've been at it a long time and love it. (I always remind my kids when they get sassy on the slopes that my skis are older than they are!) Not much for good skiing in Wisconsin, though, so you've got to take "pretty good" when you can get it!
Glad to hear your son's ok. Last I saw from you his gmail had just been shut down. Good luck to him the rest of the year!
Off to bed now...the fresh air and exercise wiped me out.
MayBee
As if you haven't been on top of this. heh.
Ya, after reading through reams of stuff-the WEA Trust thing seemed like an obvious no-brainer. Who would be mad except for the union council...
garage mahal said...
BaghdadBobHouse.
Isn't there a McDonalds somewhere in your podunk shithole that is missing you? You support parasites who leech off the producers, so fuck you, you parasitic enabler.
"I want to have the best schools in the country, and the world. To get there I'm willing to pay some serious dough because the community will make it back in the long run."
-------------------------------
About 40% of the state budget last year was spent on education. Locally, teacher salaries make up 80%(!) of a school districts funds.
Needless to say, Wisconsin is spending plenty on its education.
Meanwhile, a story comes out today that says according to the DOE, 2/3 of Wisconsin's 8th graders cant read at an acceptable level.
So, you're saying that the localities will be able to require the unions to pay 100% of their health care, and 100% of their pensions.
Just like private sector employers can.
And, none of this would be subject to collective bargaining.
Just like it isn't for 93% of private sector employees.
So, the new law will allow school districts to stop paying any health care or pension costs, if the local authorities unilaterally decide to do so.
Just like private companies can, if the owners unilaterally decide to do so.
This sounds like an excellent way to push the competent educators and administrators out of the system.
No. It sounds like something that will push the competent educators and administrators out of the system if all local governments do it. Just because it is possible to treat your employees like shit doesn't mean you will. My employer doesn't treat us like shit because -- duh -- it wouldn't be able to find people to work here if it did.
Personally, I have to contribute 50% to my health care, 100% to my pension (i.e., like most Americans I don't get one), and 97% to my 401k. So I kind of have to roll my eyes at the notion that people who are less-educated and less-skilled than me will flee the system unless those percentages are kept in the single digits. :)
Shorter Garbage:
High Speed Rail! High Speed Rail!
Calypso
Nice work with NRO, madawaskan. You're quite the mover and shaker apparently!
No. I just think they might have thought if even this person gets that this is a good idea....anyone can! Heck it might still be in Costa's spam folder for all I know.
Night-bet you sleep like a log.
*****
Jason,
I don't know how you interpret those results, but to me they strongly reinforce my point:
The gov and the Rs should be going after the policies that keep bad teachers and administrators in the schools.
Having WWIII w/ the unions over what may be a few percentage points of additional cuts in HC or Pension plans, is almost criminal, considering WI schools suck.
Moving the deck chairs on the Titanic is not leadership.
Rev,
I don't disagree w/ you. I think that the teachers know that cuts are inevitable (as you noted earlier), so they'll go along. This is why this focus on the particulars associated w/ the financial aspects is such a waste of political effort.
BTW, How is your 401k set up? If you put in a 97 cents, does your employer contribute 3 cents? That sucks.
I want to have the best schools in the country, and the world. To get there I'm willing to pay some serious dough because the community will make it back in the long run.
There is no correlation between spending on education and educational outcome. If simply throwing money at schools made them good, we would already have the finest schools in the world. Heaven knows we've paid for 'em.
This one goes out to Governor Kasich-
Aye Oh Way to Go Ohio
Go Kasich-Give 'em Hell!
"Isn't there a McDonalds somewhere in your podunk shithole that is missing you? "
The better question is, "When and where does Methadras have lunch?"
I'd listen to one of his tirades, for a free lunch. I read them for nothin'.
Rev,
You need more than just money. But, really skilled and competent people do expect to be paid. If teaching doesn't do it for them, they'll find something that does.
That said, another huge problem is the teaching environment. If the kids or school system are a total mess, no amount of money will keep a skilled teacher in the classroom.
I have no idea why cons aren't pissed at the Gov for making this big fuss over these benefits instead of going after the policies that keep bad teachers and administrators in their jobs.
Wait, so you are saying you don't think he wants to break the unions?
In my mind, those policies are exactly what will be taken care of as the union has less power.
The gov and the Rs should be going after the policies that keep bad teachers and administrators in the schools.
The teachers' union would be behaving in exactly the same manner if Walker had done that. The difference is that it would be a tougher sell to the public -- as it stands now, he can honestly claim that he's trying to deal with deficit problems.
Having WWIII w/ the unions over what may be a few percentage points of additional cuts in HC or Pension plans, is almost criminal, considering WI schools suck.
Breaking the teachers' union is a necessary step in any educational reform plan. Reform is not possible while teachers can collectively dictate the conditions of their employment.
Also, while it is true that Wisconsin schools are pretty lame, the sad fact of the matter is that you're in the top 10 nationally. If you want to see REALLY shitty schools, come to California.
"The gov and the Rs should be going after the policies that keep bad teachers and administrators in the schools."
-------------------------
But the CANT DO IT without changing the union collective barganing rules. As the rules exist now, about the only way a teacher can get fired is for some kind of misconduct. There is no kind ot merit testing, for teachers or administrators. If Walker wanted to come out and say, "I want to fire the bad teachers", nobody would get fired...first, he has no way to base his opinion, and second, any teacher that would be put on the "chopping block" would have backed union support; meaning, the union could just say "OK...we arent agreeing to a contract with you if you are going to fire so-and-so". He couldnt do it that way. It would be impossible.
The only way Walker can get the unions under his thumb is to do it "pre-emptively" like he is doing. Ever since Tommy Thompson left as governor, the teachers unions in this state have basically been set free to do and ask for anything and everything they want, and now they are pissed because Walker wants to reign them back in.
You need more than just money. But, really skilled and competent people do expect to be paid.
The problem with public education is that the clueless and incompetent people expect to get paid, too -- and the teachers fight tooth and nail to make sure that they do.
Teachers do not get to demand that they all be treated equally and then whine that the "good" teachers will leave if pay is cut. Maybe this will serve as a wake-up call.
The PEU seem to have lost Richard Cohen "Government pensions, an obesity epidemic"
And, so what's everyone's thoughts on a General Strike that ASCME is trying to set up?
Sorry I don't know how to use HTML to get an automatic link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/21/AR2011022103775.html
I have been away from the internet all day and it seems nothing has changed.
I always thought Wisconsin was boring but man you Cheeseheads just don't know when to quit.
@Shiloh
No...the sleeping giant is 77 million Boomers.
@revenant
@Revenent
Reform is not possible while teachers can collectively dictate the conditions of their employment.
Exactly. Here is what Wisconsin taxpayers and parents are receiving for their money. WI 8th grade reading report card:
In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic”.
Our public school system is failing a significant percentage of students. Even as spending per student has risen, scores have only improved in low single digits since _1992_.
Science and math scores are poor as well...a pathetic report card.
Teacher competence can no longer be off the table or Shiloh's future voters will not have the reading and comprehension skills to make a decent living, let alone fund the government or cast an informed vote.
The best part of the speech by Walker, at least for me: mentioning the WEA Trust. Finally. Its been a point that has hardly been brought up before, and its one of the big reasons schools all over the state are going bankrupt.
While I appreciate Governor Walker raising the issue of WEA Trust I don't think he explained it sufficiently for the general public to understand. First, with his Wisconsin accent, he pronounced it as WE Trust; someone from outside the state - and even some Wisconsin residents - must wonder what he was talking about. Was it Wisconsin Energies (WE) Trust?
Secondly he failed to fully explain why WEA Trust is such a bad idea. Throughout the state, the teachers' union locals have used collective bargaining to force local school districts to purchase the teachers' health insurance from an entity wholly-owned by the state teachers' union - WEAC.
So in most cases local school boards are paying above-market rates for teachers' insurance from an entity owned by the teachers' union.
So basically union members have to pay their fair share and the Republicans are also removing part of the collective bargaining agreement because a crisis is a terrible thing to waste.
ISTM that the modern right also engages in class warfare. School vouchers or eliminating the mandate on the education of other people's children would be more cost-effective and socially beneficial.
How come nobody asks what Adele Brise would do?
Don't live in WI and only been there once so it is not my fight and didn't watch the whole thing. The "fireside chat" is an interesting example of communication. He failed and perhaps hurt his cause.
Why did he do this? They must have internal polls that show him losing. Ten minutes is waaaaayyyyy toooooooo loooooonnnnnnnnnnng for the XXI century. No one except the Governor and maybe his mother will watch the whole thing.
Worst mistake is that in the few minutes I watched he never once, not even for a nanosecond, looked at the camera. Obama suffers from the same problem, but this guy is worse.
The best WI can hope for is a compromise that ends the union shop. The fear is that WI's taxpayers will lose big time in the future and AA will keep her $10,000.
"I want to have the best schools in the country, and the world. To get there I'm willing to pay some serious dough because the community will make it back in the long run."
And therein lies the fallacy that more spending = better results.
I suggest you do some reading on that topic and get back to us.
As a resident of upstate NY, it seems to me that Gov. Walker was attempting to educate people outside of Wisconsin too in his fireside address. That seems to be a wise tactic.
It was mentioned elsewhere (NRO, I think) that he is communicating with other GOP governors. Could it be that he is setting the stage for the next front of the battle? We all know that a vast majority of citizens are not political junkies, so the specifics of the issues are always battling the optics. Optics are much easier to massage into a narrative that suits a side - can't change specifics unless you're willing to give ground. Gov. Walker used personal stories very effectively to control the optics to illustrate the specifics. That is smart politics. I can't help but think that the RGA is advising here as part of the larger war where the next front is set to take place in Ohio and is already underway in Indiana.
Believe me, my Democrat governor is paying close attention to the narrative in Wisconsin as we have to do the same thing here in NY. The editorial pages are filled with commentary on how all budget fixes begin with pension reform. Cuomo appears to be planning to take advantage of the narrative to achieve his goal of getting NY's monstrous budget under control. It's very interesting to watch.
"I want to have the best schools in the country, and the world. To get there I'm willing to pay some serious dough because the community will make it back in the long run."
OOPS!
In 1998, according to the U.S. Department of Education, Wisconsin public school eighth graders scored an average of 266 out of 500 on the NAEP reading test. In 2009, Wisconsin public school eighth graders once again scored an average of 266 out of 500 on the NAEP reading test. Meanwhile, Wisconsin public schools increased their per pupil expenditures from $4,956 per pupil in 1998 to 10,791 per pupil in 2008. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator the $4,956 Wisconsin spent per pupil in 1998 dollars equaled $6,546 in 2008 dollars. That means that from 1998 to 2008, Wisconsin public schools increased their per pupil spending by $4,245 in real terms yet did not add a single point to the reading scores of their eighth graders and still could lift only one-third of their eighth graders to at least a “proficient” level in reading.
The $10,791 that Wisconsin spent per pupil in its public elementary and secondary schools in fiscal year 2008 was more than any other state in the Midwest
Please stop telling me good salaries & benefits are needed to attract these "talented" teachers.
I come late to this thread but just noticed Shiloh's inability to tell the difference between 1,000,000 and 100,000. This explains a great deal!
Hint to Shiloh: if counting the number places is too hard, you can just count the commas, which ought to be within your grasp since you'll only have to count to two.
Best part: "You do the math."
I want to have the best schools in the country, and the world. To get there I'm willing to pay some serious dough because the community will make it back in the long run.
You should move to DC. They have the highest spending per student in the nation...
I've only seen the Gov, and I don't think he really explained why it's not good enough for him to accept the union's conceding to the budget related issues.
Because the Milwaukee public schools union spent last summer in a snit because the board didn't want to cover Viagra. Because MPS union accepted layoffs of hundreds of (junior) teachers rather than take a reduction in their very rich health insurance benefits.
WASHINGTON -- Budget referees and transportation officials in Wisconsin have informed Gov. Scott Walker (R) that if he were to pass his controversial anti-union legislation into law, he could be forfeiting tens of millions of dollars in federal funds for transportation.
Under an obscure provision of federal labor law, states risk losing federal funds should they eliminate "collective bargaining rights" that existed at the time when federal assistance was first granted. The provision, known as "protective arrangements" or "Section 13C arrangements," is meant as a means of cushioning union (and even some non-union) members who, while working on local projects, are affected by federal grants.
It also could potentially hamstring governors like Walker who want dramatic changes to labor laws in their states. Wisconsin received $74 million in federal transit funds this fiscal year. Of that, $46.6 million would be put at risk should the collective-bargaining bill come to pass -- in the process creating an even more difficult fiscal situation than the one that, ostensibly, compelled Walker to push the legislation in the first place.
The governor is certainly aware of this. While the potential loss of funds may have escaped the attention of many observers, sources familiar with the state's transportation policy tell The Huffington Post that Walker's office has been informed of the relevant legal language. Moreover, in an a nearly unnoticed report filed by the state's Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the non-partisa
Fenny Boy - "You should move to DC. They have the highest spending per student in the nation..."
You're wrong again...as usual:
New York State’s public schools spent $15,981 a pupil in 2007. That’s more than any other state or state equivalent, according to data released today by the Census Bureau.
Jay - So you think the entire cost per pupil is directly related to the teacher's pay?
Even YOU can't be that dense...but, then again...
Naw...you are that dense.
It's all about busting the unions...and nothing else:
"Scott Walker Gets Punked By Journalist Pretending To Be David Koch"
Over at the Buffalo Beast -- there appears to be recordings of a phone call between Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and current editor Ian Murphy. Now, why on earth would Scott Walker want to talk on the phone with the editor of an online site in Buffalo? Well, he wouldn't.
But what if said editor pretended to be David Koch of the famed Koch Brothers? Well, that's a different story altogether, apparently! And so Walker, believing himself to be on the phone with his patron, seems to have had a long conversation about busting Wisconsin's unions.
http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=5045
Jay - So you think the entire cost per pupil is directly related to the teacher's pay?
Um, where did I say that again?
believing himself to be on the phone with his patron, seems to have had a long conversation about busting Wisconsin's unions.
Actually, he did no such thing.
But of course without lies, you'd have nothing to say.
Did the professor ever address the Cap Times' editorial "Walker gins up ‘crisis’ to reward cronies"
http://host.madison.com/ct/news
/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-
27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html
They link to a state Fiscal Bureau report from the end of January stating Wisconsin will end 2011 with the budget in surplus.
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/
Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
So did Walker just spout a lot of bullshit?
sources familiar with the state's transportation policy tell The Huffington Post
Laugh out loud funny.
Did the professor ever address the Cap Times' editorial "Walker gins up ‘crisis’ to reward cronies"
http://host.madison.com/ct/news
/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-
27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html
They link to a state Fiscal Bureau report from the end of January stating Wisconsin will end 2011 with the budget in surplus.
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/
Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
So did Walker just spout a lot of bullshit?
No.
PB&J: One of us is confused.
"Instead of all out war focused on squeezing a few more percent on HC or pensions, I'd go after the ways unions hinder student progress in the classroom.
Instead of being wise, Walker seems like a vindictive, shortsighted man, who says he's motivated by political battles from the past. Not. A. Leader. "
The debate would be over if he'd settle for the dollars. The whole fight here is over reducing the collective bargaining powers of the union. Not over wages but exactly over 'how unions hinder progress' - work rules, techniques, staffing, all that.
I don't understand your anger and am inclined to conclude that it is insincere, but had not been accustomed to seeing crap after your nick, so maybe you are just mistaken/deluded/deceived. Or I am, of course. Either about you or about Walker's policy. It just seems that you have heard somewhere that black is white, and believe it.
I know a lot of people do not like the personal anecdotes-did that include the comments whom Walker did not know either? That shows that he is a l least reading emails and listening to what others are saying.
Personal anecdotes can be important if not overdone. Shows Walker is listening to people and reading emails.
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