"It's just tragedy on tragedy."
ADDED: All the newspapers have to say that Mark Madoff hanged himself with a dog leash. It's like "all the papers had to say was that Marilyn was found in the nude."
When does a single a death detail become irresistibly mentionable?
If only Flaubert were still here, adding entries to his "Dictionary of Received Ideas." At "Mark Madoff," we'd have "hanged himself with a dog leash."
I see Flaubert has an entry for "suicide": "Proof of cowardice."
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55 comments:
Will there be no defenses of materialism today?
If the embarrassment was that bad he could have just changed his name. But apparently dear old Dad never instilled anything substantial enough in the kid to get him through the downfall of a life where money and all its trappings weren't just everything, but the only thing.
And these people lost their life savings. Makes the people going after Elizabeth Edwards look especially desperate.
I see Flaubert has an entry for "suicide": "Proof of cowardice."
Althouse has to include some derision for the dead when even those negatively affected by the deceased refuse to!
Why, Jason, how dare you drag that poor woman into this discussion? Have you no decency!!!
Althouse has to include some derision for the dead when even those negatively affected by the deceased refuse to!
It's an obsessively hierarchical view of the world that does it, Jason. Some people either think they're doing the pissing or they're being pissed on.
Like the Madoffs, for instance.
"some derision for the dead"
It's not derision for the dead. Flaubert is expressing contempt for people who say conventional things. It is conventional to say -- or it was at the time -- that suicide is cowardice.
Now, Mark Madoff appears to have been on the verge of losing all his wealth. Rather than face that, he checked out. He left his body hanging by a dog leash near the place where his 2-year-old son was sleeping. He left that little boy and that boy's mother to deal with their drastically changed circumstances with the additional drastically changed circumstance of the suicide of the man who had the profound moral obligation to protect them
That isn't the slightest bit funny.
Not all. Many newspapers are reporting that he hanged himself with a dog collar.
How is that even physically possible?
See here for examples: http://bit.ly/goOTtO
wv: slashir - what he didn't do.
Given who brought him up and the values that were instilled in him, to have expected these times to have forced Mark Madoff into a true moral test seems ludicrous.
At least broken Hollywood celebs have the idea of another shot at fame to cling to.
These financierati that you guys worship, OTOH, have no material crutch to get them through the times that it takes to develop a necessary spiritual grounding, and might even be in a worse position to find it.
Would that the other brother were to do the right and honorable thing, then we'd be off to a good start on some much-needed justice in this case.
It is patently obvious to the casual observer that the entire Madoff family were working this scam.
According to a lawsuit filed by Irving Picard - Mark Madoff was paid $29 million in compensation by his father Bernie over just seven years.
Mark Madoff appears to have hanged himself to escape the coming scrutiny of his actions - which appear to be indefensible.
It's now up to Andrew to do us all a favor and save us the trouble. He took $17 million out - and apparently didn't even bother to pay taxes on it.
The Wall Street Journal reported in February that federal prosecutors in Manhattan were pursuing criminal tax-fraud cases against both of Mr. Madoff's two sons.
Ann Althouse: Why, Jason, how dare you drag that poor woman into this discussion? Have you no decency!!!
They say if you disturb the dead, they will come back to haunt you.
Ann Althouse: He left that little boy and that boy's mother to deal with their drastically changed circumstances with the additional drastically changed circumstance of the suicide of the man who had the profound moral obligation to protect them
Well I'm sure they'll feel better knowing people are calling their husband/father a coward.
You're a regular angel of mercy.
IF he has a $20 million life insurance policy, AND he's passed the suicide exclusion date, then he just generated a fund for his family to live on for the rest of their lives.
AND they won't have to live through his trial, or see him carted off to jail for the rest of his life.
Bernie Madoff, like Elizabeth Edwards, is a neighbor of mine. Both sowed treachery and deceit in the pursuit of power and money, and both have paid a great price for their hubris.
I hate to think that I agree with Ritmo Jungle whatever his name is this week, but I had the same thought - Mark Madoff could not face life without his millions of dollars and decided to kill himself instead of live and see what happens. That was a weak play. For those of us who have had financial reversals and health challenges to the point of having to deal with end of life issues, it is especially weak, in my opinion, to kill yourself over the mere loss of money. Dude, if you are still healthy, live on, let your lawyers fight the legal battles, that's why you pay them the big bucks, assuming they will take a check.
Weak. Puny. Chicken bleep. Now he is dead.
And don't believe news reports - most reporters are inept at applying the proper words to common objects - a leash, a collar - all the same in their world of clueless oblivion.
WV: gamat - what was run.
You have wonder how ol' Bernie took the news whilst resting in the pokey?
Bad enough to lose your wealth and freedom. Now to see one of your sons take his own life has to be worse than any prison sentence. I would bet Bernie is really pleading guilty today.
I have a feeling some of Bernie's victims probably feel they do get some kind of revenge on the father for this.
PS Ann (or Gustave) isn't the first to associate suicide with cowardice, especially doing it in such a manner that a loved one will be first to discover the body. In fact, it's fairly common attitude.
Hard to say Rick. Bernie must be some kind of sociopath so who can know how he feels?
Jason, you're way off on this one. What the hell is the loss of wealth compared to abandoning your 2 year old son? Despicable.
But ricpic, *IF,* as rdkraus suggests, Madoff the younger had a substantial life insurance policy he might have believed that it was the more honorable thing to do in providing the funds thru death rather than see his family dragged thru the whole sorted affair of trial and very probably imprisonment with all the psychic damage that entails while penniless to boot.
I thought insurance didn't pay out for suicide?
And who dragged Elizabeth's corpse into this thread? Ah yes, Jason.
BigGov: These financierati that you guys worship
Most of his clients were Democrats. The Martha's Vineyard crowd. People like John Kerry and John Edwards. And the Desperate Housewives of NYC.
Fen: And who dragged Elizabeth's corpse into this thread? Ah yes, Jason.
Apparently the ghouls of Althouse only like to feast on fresh corpses.
She was put in the ground just yesterday, Jason.
Fen: She was put in the ground just yesterday, Jason.
And how exactly is going after the people who attacked her after she died a bad thing? You're supposed to not speak bad of the dead, not forget them.
Althouse, she's already forgotten. I guess you have too!
"You're a regular angel of mercy."
I speak to the living: Don't kill yourself.
"PS Ann (or Gustave) isn't the first to associate suicide with cowardice, especially doing it in such a manner that a loved one will be first to discover the body. In fact, it's fairly common attitude."
Argh! Flaubert isn't "associat[ing] suicide with cowardice," he's expressing contempt for the conventional people who always say the same damned thing about something, as if it's interesting or clever.
I have no problem with people speaking ill of the dead if the person in question was an important public official or especially infamous. But people's wives? And attacks on people for hurting their children that hurt those very children?
Ann Althouse: I speak to the living: Don't kill yourself.
If only you could make your point without collateral damage.
Jason: You're supposed to not speak bad of the dead
You're also not supposed to use their corpse as a political prop.
The Wellston funeral/pep-rally, the Correta King Bush-basing funeral, leveraging the death of Ted Kennedy to pass Obamacare.
And you have the nerve to be outraged about *us* not giving your politicians and activists respect when they die?
How can you demand we show more respect for your dead when you use them as a weapon against us?
PS Ann (or Gustave) isn't the first to associate suicide with cowardice, especially doing it in such a manner that a loved one will be first to discover the body. In fact, it's fairly common attitude.
The article I read yesterday indicated that the wife, panicked by the messages he left, had her father, a prominent attorney (who likely lost money too, unless he made some) go by to check on his son-in-law, and it was he who found the remains. The family was apparently at Disney something at the time. Or something like that.
I do think that this was the weak response.
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.
Some will face the music
Some will duck and run
According to an email he sent his wife, he did not want the scandal to "hang over his family". Instead, the suicide literally hangs over the scandal and his family.....The scandal is a novelistic detail, but it is more consistent with auto erotic asphyxiation than with suicide. Perhaps this is one last Madoff con--mixing the expectations and pay outs for the credible in order to reach a self serving, self gratifying conclusion.
IF he has a $20 million life insurance policy, AND he's passed the suicide exclusion date, then he just generated a fund for his family to live on for the rest of their lives.
AND they won't have to live through his trial, or see him carted off to jail for the rest of his life.
But wasn't part of the despair that lead to his suicide the fact that his son (and wife?) was just named as a defendant? Couldn't the judgment eat up any insurance money?
These financierati that you guys worship
Most of his clients were Democrats.
So now professional relationships contain the adulation that characterizes government patronage of the captains of industry residing at the bestest of tax brackets ever?
Sorry, but when I hire someone to do a job, adulation for the contracted party is not how I look at it.
"Show mw you're not too rich to be cool!"
I want to be your dog, at the Waldorf.
So messed up I want you here
In my room I want you here
Now we're gonna be Face-to-face
And I'll lay right down
In my favorite place
And now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Well c'mon
Now I'm ready to close my eyes
And now I'm ready to close my mind
And now I'm ready to feel your hand
And lose my heart on the burning sands
And now I wanna be your dog
And now I wenna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Well c'mon
BigGov: These financierati that you guys worship
Most of his clients were Democrats.
So now professional relationships contain the adulation that characterizes government patronage of the captains of industry residing at the bestest of tax brackets ever?
1) you really should avoid abusing your Thesaurus that way. Especially when you still allow words like "bestest" to remain.
2) you're the one who wants to pretend that it was just conservatives who fell prey to Maddoff "worship".
Didn't one of the sons (or both?) turn Madoff in?
I didn't follow the story closely (having my 4 digit retirement funds elsewhere).
Most of his clients were Democrats.
And -- (C4 where are you?) I believe, Jewish.
Flash: Richard Nixon recently said some cruel things in conversations with his advisors while serving as President...and he was very ugly to Communists every chance he got. His social skills were terrible. And what's more he helped bad, bad anti-communist governments all over the world. And he even resupplied the Israeli forces when he had plenty of easy ways to abandon them to the mercies of the sneak attacking Muslim friends of ours. That alone started an 18 month Saudi oil embargo that caused very high prices for gas. What a relief that such a monster finally died.
But wasn't part of the despair that lead to his suicide the fact that his son (and wife?) was just named as a defendant?
I doubt this, since his son is two years old. (You may be getting Mark Madoff, who is the dead man, confused with his father Bernie Madoff. Bernie is in jail at the moment, I believe.)
Couldn't the judgment eat up any insurance money?
If my understanding is correct, no. The insurance payment is not part of his estate - it's paid to the beneficiaries, which would be his son and/or wife if the speculation about his having life insurance is true. A judgement against him would not touch their property. (Also, there is as yet no judgement, and I don't think you can prosecute a dead man.)
Here it is from the NY Post I think: Mark and his brother Andrew, who notified authorities their father had confessed to them the day before he was arrested on Dec. 11, 2008, have said they were unaware of his crimes.
But apparently others thought they should have figured it out....and that was an ongoing issue.
It's sad. There were some things he could have done besides kill himself.
Permanent solution to a temporary problm which creates permanent problems as a result.
Let the record show that Fen does not distinguish between trusting a financial adviser and heaping government rewards and a great break in the tax code onto people that just happen to be awesomely rich.
Let the record show that BigGov is once again flailing his strawman.
There are more fallacies that exist in this world than straw men, don'tcha know? Like the red herring you threw out there of Madoff's clients' political orientation. Not relevant to Republican worship of money, which was the point you originally tried to respond to.
Do Democrats worship Mammon now? Because if they do maybe someone might want to pass along the memo.
BigGov: There are more fallacies that exist in this world than straw men, don'tcha know?
And I'm certain you'll run through each and every one of them.
Like the red herring you threw out there of Madoff's clients' political orientation.
You accused conservatives of "worhsip" of Madoff, ie These financierati that you guys worship. I simply pointed out that most of his acolytes were liberals.
But I see now why you embrace so many rhetorical fallacies - its actually a step up from your standard practice of flat out lying.
I simply responded
Do Democrats worship Mammon now?
They've always done so. Leviathan (Envy) as well.
Dems are the party of the Rich.
Jason (the commenter) said...
And these people lost their life savings. Makes the people going after Elizabeth Edwards look especially desperate.
Why you needlessly neglect other people losing more when the market took a dump who lost much more than the ones that invested with a scam artist.
Big Gov't Trickling Down on You said...
Given who brought him up and the values that were instilled in him, to have expected these times to have forced Mark Madoff into a true moral test seems ludicrous.
Wasn't it his very children who ratted him out?
Suicide, or changing your name?
I would enjoy the later against the former.
Fen wrote:
The Wellston funeral/pep-rally, the Correta King Bush-basing funeral, leveraging the death of Ted Kennedy to pass Obamacare.
I know you had even money on the dems using Elizabeth Edwards death as some of political attack/pep rally. Yet, perhaps to preempt said attack it sounds like you went into full on politcal bashing, which is in fact the flip side of the Wellstone funeral pep rally. In other words, you used her death to attack your enemies.
And you'd have lost that bet.
I'm saying this, not as a lib or a democrat, since I'm neither.
What I would suggest is, since we already know that you will, on the eve of someone's death descend into the political slamming, don't get outraged at the pep ralies. Both sides are going to play poitics with the dead. And neither side has no shame.It's just that after reading your commentary I have a really bad taaste in my mouth, and now view anything you say about dems using deaths for political purposes with a degree of doubt.
Fen wrote:
You're also not supposed to use their corpse as a political prop.
That's exactly what you did.
I doubt this, since his son is two years old. (You may be getting Mark Madoff, who is the dead man, confused with his father Bernie Madoff. Bernie is in jail at the moment, I believe.)
According to the Times, you are wrong:
"Just last week, Mr. Madoff, 46, was among the directors and officers of a Madoff affiliate in London who were sued by the trustee seeking assets for victims of the scheme.
It was the second lawsuit filed against him by the trustee, Irving H. Picard, who had initially sued him last year seeking to recover approximately $200 million that the family had received in salaries, bonuses, expense-account payments and gains in their own investment accounts at the Madoff firm.
Mr. Madoff was particularly upset that the trustee had named his young children as defendants in a lawsuit filed in late November seeking the recovery of money Bernard Madoff had paid out to his extended family over the years, according to the person who recently spoke with him, who insisted on anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on behalf of the family. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/12/business/12madoff.html
Yep, no father gives up on their 2 year old child. If you do, you're a coward.
Deal with your shit gentlemen (Ladies too of course).
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