"It took a long time for the appearance of things like bare breasts and pubic hair to occur, but once those thresholds had been crossed, it didn't take long for the most lurid things to be freely depicted and for the competition for obscenity to become ever more extreme. 'Everybody's afraid now of being outdone from the right... So when somebody eventually comes out and calls Obama an "Afro-Nazi," it will go mainstream quite fast.'"
Christopher Hitchens, just getting warmed up in a tirade that is... not unlike the evolution of American pornography.
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९७ टिप्पण्या:
May God heal and then rescue Christopher Hitchens from himself, and may Christopher Hitchens use his decidedly talented writing ability to edify far more people than the tripe such as this which only amuses a very few.
Who the heck has studied the evolution of American pornography? Was it part of the stimulus plan?
Hitchens doesn't read either pornography or the right wing very well.
Pornography goes not to the extreme but to what guys are wired to be fascinated by, which is more GP than XXX.
Here's yesterday's podcast by Richard Epstein on Obama doing everything wrong.
This madman's podcast on the law, for reference.
Sullivan is obsessed with pornography today too.
What is it with those guys?
"Obama has done little or nothing to raise the racial temperature and has endured a pelting of vulgar defamation with remarkable patience."
Oh, Hitch. So not true.
and as always Hitch doesn't just blame one side.
" It is not only on the right that the auction of demagogy is operating, and the bids are headed downward."
The D'Souza psychobabble is unbelievable. Just awful.
Even worse, he took all of it from Maureen Dowd's scribblings about W. Just replace Bush with Obama and presto, instant psychobiography.
And Dowd had the gall to complain about this type of analysis?
Eh, not your best, Chris.
Blame it on chemo brain.
CH:
The "race-card" game, when I was young, was a simple one. It used to be George Wallace and Orval Faubus shouting about "n_____s."
Why the redacted letters? What are we schoolkids who'll be scarred upon reading the word?
I'll assume that was the editor because Hitchens is quite willing to use the word to make his point.
I liked the ending with its reference to the DC Mayoral election and the occult racial sentiments in that election.
All in all, I'm tiring of the mutliple permutations of
If you oppose President Obama, you're a racist
Can I assume that once we finally elect a woman we'll have to go through this again only then it will be
we're all sexists
shouting about "nepalis"?
shouting about "numbnuts" ?
shouting about "nothingness" ?
I thought this communist reprobate had died already?
Poor sick Hitchens. If it wouldn't infuriate him, I'd just pray for him. Maybe I'll pray for him anyway. He has so much talent, just misdirected...Part of his post on the Papacy and the child abuse scandal came very close to Christ's words about "inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these..."
Sullivan...I guess he's battling illness too, but he doesn't elicit my sympathy to the same degree.
The quote that our hostess cited is Hitchens quoting David Frum, not Hitchens.
And phil, F&#k off and die...Hitchens craps bigger than you...
Since Obama likes to bring up his predecessor all the time, I'd say he's got it pretty damn easy compared to the vitriol and bile spewed on Bush during his time.
Since I didn't click through (it *is* Hitchens after all), does Hitchens acknowledge how our pornographic political discourse began long before the election of Barack Obama.
Compared to some of the attacks on Clinton, both Bill and Hillary, and W, the namecalling style attacks on Obama are entirely tame.
He might sorta, kinda be a Muslim? He's a socialist? He maybe wasn't born here? Compared to the shit they called his two predecessors? Hell, they treated Reagan worse than Obama!
I fear that, for me, Hitch has hit the pity moment. When I read a column like this I just blame cancer cells/chemo, and remember the 'healthy' Hitchens...
Does this mean the best right-wing abuse of Barack Obama took place in the late 70s and early 80s?
Hitch is not taking any prisoners. His anger seems close to the surface, and he makes no effort to be factual in this vindictive tirade. Calling Obama names such as "The Marxist from Kenya" is quite descriptive of Obama's motivations, and it does not demean Obama any more than it demeans Obama's heroes like his father and like Hugo Chavez. The truth only seems to hurt if you are committed to lies.
Obama deserves to be abused. He is a freaking MORON.
Quote:"Long before America was even an idea, this land of plenty was home to many peoples. The British and French, the Dutch and Spanish, to Mexicans, to countless Indian tribes. We all shared the same land," President Obama told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.
Seriously. Did he get ANY education whatsoever. The man is a certifiable idiot.
Interesting.
If you read the article, you will see that (as usual) Hitch is not going after just the right wing.
Racial politics is nothing new. Missouri Compromise, Nullification, Dred Scott, Bloody Kansas, Civil War, Reconstruction, KKK, Jim Crow, Solid South, Civil Rights, Black Power, Southern Strategy, White Flight, Affirmative Action, Political Correctness, Gerrymandering, Stealth Reparations.
If you think through the forces in the foregoing issues, you will see that no section, party or race has a monopoly on invidious use of race guilt, race fear or race solidarity.
The tragedy of Obama is that he sold himself as the means to step away from this dreary record of demagoguery. But he's just been more of the same.
Things probably won't change. The Democratic Party's power is completely a function of their lock on 95% of the black vote election after election. This means they think they have to play race cards. It also means their opposition can use their monopoly on the black vote against them.
Sooner or later, for one reason or another, this pattern will break. The consequences of the breakage are hard to predict, but they will probably be different than we expect.
Uh, like Hitch going after Mother Teresa and the things he said about Henry Kissinger really set a good example...
Really, I'm not impressed by someone from his generation complaining about the decline in public discourse.
I think that decline has made more people tune out, anyway. When I read a sentence or paragraph that tells me that the author has nothing to say that I haven't heard, I'm happy. It means I don't have to waste my time on reading the rest.
Hitch isn't usually in that category.
Hitchens and his leftist buddies have been using blacks as a battering ram in their war against ethnic and working class whites for a half-century -- what new thing?
Amazing how Hitchens has gone rabid leftist in his death throes. I pity the man.
Does this mean the best right-wing abuse of Barack Obama took place in the late 70s and early 80s?
Certainly the more hairier abuse.
At this rate, only HuffPo will post his drivel. Assuming he doesn't croak first.
When Hitchens acts the part of a a prat he does it full on.
Obama and his minions have dealt the race card to the point that it's no longer trump so his opponents will raise the ante accordingly. Have none of these people ever played poker?
btw- If p0rn is so mainstream where are the cocks? We ladies barely get a glimpse of the ole trouser snake. TV apart from HBO or SHO toying with an occasional flaccid full frontal; TV is a dick wasteland. Film? Nope, not much more than bums and pubes. Print media about the same.
Sorry...what was the subject?
DBQ:
1- Why the heck did Obama feel the need to say that? Is he Panderer in Chief?
2- As if all those people got along swell until the bad Europeans arrived and f-ed it up.
What dopes liberals have become!
In other news, Larry Summers is leaving the Obama Administration to return to Harvard.
Obama telegraphed that one yesterday, saying there "might" be more changes in this "economic team" for "personal" reasons.
In other words, Summers is getting his ass out of town to distance himself from the calamity he knows is coming.
Ron:
"I fear that, for me, Hitch has hit the pity moment. When I read a column like this I just blame cancer cells/chemo, and remember the 'healthy' Hitchens..."
Yeah. I read quickly, but it was flat and angry, without the distance needed to bring in his light touch, which is inaccessible at the moment.
Thank goodness no one ever went too far when bashing Bush. That would have been catastrophic.
WV: hafas - that was some hafas writin' right there.
He, as a media professional, seems to be making a smart move. Folks who are paid to produce anti-BHO jabber are burdened with a huge challenge: the battle in the crowded anti-BHO industry is ruthless. It's becoming ever more difficult to out-shrill the competition in such a crowed market place.
But, Hitch is pulling out his contrarian card so he can break through in a, relatively, untapped jabber market place (anti-anti-BHO jabber). You (i.e. professional jabberers) can never go wrong w/ the contrarian card (just ask Kaus, but don't ask him about the card check card).
Smart move.
"Sorry...what was the subject?"
That BHO and his lackeys are race-baiters extraordinaire. I think it's called politics.
It took a long time for the appearance of things like bare breasts and pubic hair to occur
At least hooters haven't disappeared.
Peter
It's becoming ever more difficult to out-shrill the competition in such a crowed market place.
Birther nut Jerome Corsi recently said Obama must "renounce Lucifer." How do you top that? This is the same guy Sean Hannity brings on as a "source" for his TV show.
Garage...There seem to be two recognized types in the religious world: 1) submits to God and resists the Devil, and 2) submits to the Devil and resists God. So just where does Obama fall in that dichotomy"? Inquiring minds still want some answers after watching the fast life and times at Obama's White House School for learning how to surrender, disarm and submit to a Muslim dominated UN World Government.
Aww, Hitch. It sucks to be wrong about the guy you voted for. It's also apparently very hard to admit that mistake.
*hugs Hitch*
Most of the criticism of The Zero has to do with those things he as or has not accomplished. They may be lurid, but they're the public (as opposed to pubic) record.
Dust Bunny Queen said...
Obama deserves to be abused. He is a freaking MORON.
Quote:"Long before America was even an idea, this land of plenty was home to many peoples. The British and French, the Dutch and Spanish, to Mexicans, to countless Indian tribes. We all shared the same land," President Obama told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.
Seriously. Did he get ANY education whatsoever. The man is a certifiable idiot.
While the Spaniards colonized the Rio Grande valley as far as Taos in the 1600s, Texas wasn't colonized until 1700 (mostly south of the Nueces River) and California around 1770 (concentrated at San Francisco Bay and along the coast between Santa Barbara and San Diego). At the time of the Mexican War, only about 5000 Mexicans lived in California and 3500 in Texas. Only New Mexico throve with a population of about 17,000 after 250 years.
As usual, The Zero follows Uncle Saul's dictum to never let the truth stand in the way of a good lie
Hitch attacks God and defends Obama.
I'm at a loss - what can one say?
Bait and switch leaves the consumer angry, and Obama has been the ultimate bait and switch.
The anger is what Hitch is wrongly labeling 'hatred.'
At least hooters haven't disappeared.
LOL.
You have to admire a man with dedication to a cause.
While the Spaniards colonized the Rio Grande valley as far as Taos in the 1600s, Texas wasn't colonized until 1700 (mostly south of the Nueces River) and California around 1770 (concentrated at San Francisco Bay and along the coast between Santa Barbara and San Diego).
Mexico wasn't even a country until the 1810 -20's, so therefore there were NO Mexicans.
Obama is a complete ignoramus dope.
"Mexico declared its independence on September 16, 1810. It was recognized on September 27, 1821.
"
DBQ said: Quote:'Long before America was even an idea, this land of plenty was home to many peoples. The British and French, the Dutch and Spanish, to Mexicans, to countless Indian tribes. We all shared the same land,' President Obama told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.
But the hoots and cheers when he said that sorta prove that it was a deliberate lie. He connected. There was resonance.
Scott wrote:
The quote that our hostess cited is Hitchens quoting David Frum, not Hitchens.
I was about to say, if Hitchens said that I feel sorry that his illness has addled his brains. Finding out that it came from Frum only confirms that Frum had no brains. In fact this is a step up for Frum.
Whoever wrote it though should still answer the question - what abuse? Could it compare even remotely to the abuse George Bush suffered in the constant discussion of him being a racist warmonger who doesn't care for black people and deliberately withheld aid to NO because the majority of the people weren't white, or that he knew about 9/11 and was even in on it, or that he was bringing about a new nazi germany, or that he started a war in Afghanistan over a UNOCOL pipleline to enrich his buddies. C'mon. If the abuse of Barack obama is pornography, then the abuse of Bush is kiddie porn, bestiality porn followed by a snuff film.
That's the kind of demagoguery we need to watch out for.
Garage...There seem to be two recognized types in the religious world: 1) submits to God and resists the Devil, and 2) submits to the Devil and resists God.
I don't know Trad, our prisons are full of Christians. We're a Christin Nation right?
And why won't, or why can't, God just kill the Devil?
BJM said...
If p0rn is so mainstream where are the cocks?
Well, there is this...
and as always Hitch doesn't just blame one side.
" It is not only on the right that the auction of demagogy is operating, and the bids are headed downward."
True. Note one of the biggest race card plays according to hitch was by the Hillary camp who floated the rumor that they had a tape of Michelle Obama talking about "hating whitey". I do remember that, though wasn't aware that hillary's group was the one that floated the rumor. Weren't they also the ones who floated the rumor that Barack was a muslim. Perhaps lefties have to look out for other lefties. They can be pretty darn vicious.
All readers, please Google Ken Kratz. He is a Wisconsin district attorney who has stalked abuse victims he is supposed to protect. He was "investigated" by the incestuous agency delegated to police attorneys and given a pass.
One sometimes can find the truth by seeing the stories a reporter/blogger doesn't cover. Attorneys protect other attorneys, and to that rule there are few exceptions. Our august Ms. Althouse is not the exception, at least in this instance. The story is juicy, interesting, and very sexy...just Ms. Althouses' usual cup of tea. But, to date, no mention. We can only guess why.
Hitchens seems to undergoing a deathbed conversion to the Coffee Party.
Very amusing that he, of all people, would get so worked up about "civility".
He forgot the Finns and the Swedes, who were contemporaries of the Dutch. What does he have against Scandis? Too blonde?
Should I be outraged as a Swedish-American?
One sometimes can find the truth by seeing the stories a reporter/blogger doesn't cover.
And one sometimes can make an ass of oneself through snide insinuations.
The story is juicy, interesting, and very sexy...just Ms. Althouses' usual cup of tea. But, to date, no mention. We can only guess why.
Knock off the insinuations. Either accuse Prof. Althouse outright, or stop wasting our time.
Don't like what the blogger isn't covering? Get your own blog, and flail away at whatever topic you think deserves more coverage. I'll bet you if you write something substantive, Prof. Althouse will be glad to link you, maybe even quote you. (She's linked to dumber stuff that people here have written.)
But all bets are off when you start the dance by accusing her of a coverup. Why should she show you any courtesy when you start off with discourtesy?
Garage:
"And why won't, or why can't, God just kill the Devil?"
My eight grader poses these kinds of deep questions too. I won't point him, yet, to the copious literature dealing with the question of evil but it won't be long because he's pretty smart. Garage, not so much.
At least hooters haven't disappeared.
Anyone catch "Undercover Boss" featuring Hooters last night? Amusing.
Loved how the CEO was *shocked* that the Hooters experience might not be some people's cup of tea...
I can't say that I object strongly to the chain, the thought of going in one just makes me unaccountably depressed.
Sorry, totally OT
I'm just glad no leftists said anything bad about George W. Bush. So respectable, our left.
Short memories, too. Crazy short. Embarrassingly short.
I was going to insert a joke here about Alzheimer's Disease, but I can't remember it.
I heard you can find some of this evolved porn on the Internet if you are really deft at Googling. Can anyone verify?
@Ignorance
LOL! Thanks I needed a laugh after wading through Garage's tedious talking points.
My eight grader poses these kinds of deep questions too. I won't point him, yet, to the copious literature dealing with the question of evil but it won't be long because he's pretty smart. Garage, not so much.
It would appear to me you certainly aren't any smarter than me, otherwise you would have answered the question yourself. Furthermore, if you're putting off trying to answer your eight grader's questions to a point in time when you can point him/her to literature that could explain the question, then you're no smarter than an eight grader!
And it appears garage may not even have the reading comprehension of an 8th grader.
It would appear to me you certainly aren't any smarter than me, otherwise you would have answered the question yourself
Maybe he's just taking the tactic of the left wingers who post on the net. When you guys raise a point and people have questions on the (supposed)facts presented.....we are told to Google it.
Google it then.
No more potshots from the sidelines Gmay. Say what you mean. Pour your heart out.
@Garage
I don't know Trad, our prisons are full of Christians.
Oh please, that's such a tired liberal trope. The destruction of the poor black and white family by Utopian liberal schemes, mediocre educational standards, failed drug policy and PC driven situational ethics filled our prisons.
We're a Christin Nation right?
Pardon me, but I haven't seen any religious police in Berkeley.
Liberal/Green zealots poking into and/or interfering in every aspect of my life?
Yes, by the droves. Earnest green nannies, gimlet-eyed bureaucrats, and PC scolds constantly hectoring, restricting, forbidding and taxing.
Google it then.
Google what?
blogger+michael+his eight grader+god+evil ?
I have no idea what he thinks about God, or evil, or what he wants his eight grader to read on the matter.
My eight grader poses these kinds of deep questions too. I won't point him, yet, to the copious literature dealing with the question of evil but it won't be long because he's pretty smart.
You could give him the honest answer: "we don't know". Reading the "copious literature" will just tell him what some of the popular hypotheses are.
Google what?
Your original question. Why doesn't God get rid of/kill Lucifer.
In a way; the answer explains why we must now suffer through the Obama years and use our free will to come out better for the experience. It is a very important choice that we need to make as a nation. I hope we make the hard choices.
This is why evil exists and why God doesn't eliminate it.
DBQ
So God doesn't kill evil because, like Obama, we must endure. So we know what "good" even is!
Thanks God!
Hey! Hitch just called Obama an Afro-Nazi!
Going viral in 3, 2, ...
wv: "ametri"
Garage...Sneak a peek into the Devil's end described in Chapter 20 of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It seems like God has the same idea that you have. Until that Day comes, I suppose we will have to love and accept everyone that choses to join the Church.
I do sincerely hope he manages to beat the cancer. I may not agree with a lot of what the man says, but he is one of the few who can really make you understand exactly where he is coming from. That's a hard thing to do.
Martin Shoemaker..no profile. My guess, attorney? law student? and sycophant. Hope you get an A.
I agree my accusation was mostly horseshit, and for that horseshit I apologize to Ms. Althouse. I'm a man...what are you, Shoemaker?
Jesus Christ, you people. This thread coulda been hilarious. Instead you make it all serious and full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
I've got no choice other than posting Gay Rocky at this point.
"Should I be outraged as a Swedish-American?"
You could, but it won't change the fact you're not Norwegian. NTTAWWT.
;-)
"So God doesn't kill evil because, like Obama, we must endure. So we know what "good" even is!"
No, because the alternative to being allowed to make stupid choices is death. It is the impulse to take away freedom for our own good that is so evident in humans, but absent in God, even though we curse him for it.
ndspinelli,
Again with the substanceless accusations? This seems to be a pattern with you.
I have no profile because I truly loathe blogger.com, and give it only the little information needed to participate in the discussion.
Your profile, however, lists your occupation as retired private investigator. I trust that when you were actually paid to investigate, you were a lot more thorough than this. From what I know of your profession, you would have to dig a little deeper than blogger profiles to identify a person. Not much deeper, mind you, to identify a person who readily comments with my full legal name, the same name I use in my professional work. A not-very-difficult Web search will find an awful lot of hits in the software development field, zero hits in the legal field. I'm sure that if you were paid to do the search, you'd need less than an hour to ascertain that no, I'm neither an attorney nor a law student.
(To be fair, I have found a handful of other Martin Shoemakers online. One's a psychiatrist, I think, and one's the editor in the late Jeff MacNeilly's Shoe comic strip. But I've yet to find one who's a lawyer.)
But since no one's paying you, there's no need for you to do the research, I understand. And perhaps you should understand that there's no need to jump to conclusions and make an ass of yourself (again).
I agree my accusation was mostly horseshit, and for that horseshit I apologize to Ms. Althouse. I'm a man...
Yep, you're a man, all right. You prove it by pseudonymously calling me out for not having a blogger profile. Uh-huh.
what are you, Shoemaker?
I'm a man with low tolerance for horseshit. You're now two for two in horseshit posts. Maybe it's time you stop digging your horseshit pile deeper, and start writing a blog post on this issue that's so important to you. Right now, instead of drawing attention to that important topic, you're drawing attention to your horseshit.
No, because the alternative to being allowed to make stupid choices is death.
Like cancer. Stupid choice.
What is cancer, garage?
What is disease? What is microbiology?
Could anything live in a universe where those things could not exist?
Intestinal flora. Could life exist in a universe where you couldn't get worms?
What you want is constant miraculous events or else. Constant intervention on every level about every thing.
And then, rather than curse God for cancer, you could curse God that you were a slave.
That's assuming you had the ability anymore to curse God, of course.
garage curses God every moment of his pitiful existence.
Could anything live in a universe where those things could not exist?
Yea sure, why not? Some people get inflicted with cancer, some, for some reason, do not. Why do some get inflicted with cancer and some do not?
garage sounds like a child. Mommy - why is the world so cruel?
Garage -- My advice to you is read the Book of Job along with a serious academic book about the Book of Job or a collection of essays about it. You don't have to be religious to get something profound out of it. And, in fact, God ends up telling off three people who talk a big religious game throughout the story.
You'll find that these allegedly dumbfounding questions you are asking have been struggled with before, long and hard, by a revolutionary poet and by millions of people who subsequently considered the poem.
You'll find, in retrospect, that you are being very shallow right now.
garage sounds like a child. Mommy - why is the world so cruel?
You're yet another child that can't answer it. Thanks for sticking your dick out and not being able to pee though.
garage - stop humiliating yourself in public.
Garage has a right to question the timing and the mercies of God. I do all of the time. Yet the only answers come from seeing that the purposes of God always include our eternal spiritual existence as something far more important to Him than our short lives here on earth. Frankly, the Father God needs his Son's perspective on human suffering, which the Father seems not to be that in tune with (ask Job). Maybe that is why the Father has turned over all judgement to His Son, the new man, Jesus.
@seven machos
yeah..I clicked over to Ace for a bit...they're having waaay too much fun on the stupid shit Barry says thread.
"And why won't, or why can't, God just kill the Devil? "
3 words:
Rules of Engagement
Yet the only answers come from seeing that the purposes of God always include our eternal spiritual existence as something far more important to Him than our short lives here on earth
Couldn't disagree more, but it looks like it stumped the panel all but you.
No, because the alternative to being allowed to make stupid choices is death.
That argument only makes sense if you assume that every situation has exactly 1 good choice.
My advice to you is read the Book of Job along with a serious academic book about the Book of Job or a collection of essays about it. You don't have to be religious to get something profound out of it.
I'll spare you the effort, garage. The profound revelation of the Book of Job is "God doesn't owe you an explanation". :)
Its answer to the problem of evil is, in essence, "shut the fuck up".
There is a multitude of explanations given in Job, one by God. Job is nothing is not explanation.
Sounds like you didn't actually read Job, Rev.
There is a multitude of explanations given in Job, one by God.
I'm guessing the omnipotent, omniscient guy was the one with the correct explanation. :)
Federalist #68 (Alexander Hamilton).
"Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one querter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union?"
Obama is clearly not a "Creature of our own", and is certainly not an "indigenous citizen" (Natural Born Citizen, i.e born in the US of US Citizen parents). The Founders knew the dangers. Obama is their (and our) worst nightmare.
garbage said: "No more potshots from the sidelines Gmay. Say what you mean. Pour your heart out."
What so you can duck and dodge questions again? No thanks. You get what you give - potshots.
Or perhaps more appropriately - you reap what you sow.
When Hitch hits his mark,as it does here, it stings everybody from the Tea Party, to the Liberals. Of course now we have a new card to play against him-- the sick one.
R-V, hitting a mark in this sense requires some sort of connection with reality which, as numerous commenters here have pointed out, obviously doesn't exist.
I said: No, because the alternative to being allowed to make stupid choices is death.
Rev: "That argument only makes sense if you assume that every situation has exactly 1 good choice."
No, because the "on/off" isn't about the subject of the choices, which can be any number of choices between perfect and horrible with all shades in between but between having a choice at all, or no choice at all.
I tend to think that God feels that it is better for us to live in a dynamic universe that is so favorable to life that both humans and viruses can thrive and we sometimes die because our cells don't understand to stop reproducing, than for us to live in a universe where thistles will not grow and there are no mosquitoes to carry malaria, and no song birds to eat them.
And I tend to think that God feels that it is better for us to be free and sentient, even when it necessitates the existence of evil.
And I don't think that people would actually want God keeping either thing from happening, nature *or* free will, even if He did it by a constant stream of supernatural miracles.
No, because the "on/off" isn't about the subject of the choices, which can be any number of choices between perfect and horrible with all shades in between but between having a choice at all, or no choice at all.
But that's what I'm saying: if a situation allows for more than one good choice, then you can still make a choice even if all "evil" options are eliminated. So the only circumstance in which being denied evil choices is equivalent to denying you ANY choice is if there is only one good choice available.
Everything about this thread - from the Hitchens piece to the comments - is wrong.
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