Althouse: Protest and counterprotest in NYC — 1,000 against the mosque near Ground Zero and 200 for it.

August 23, 2010

Protest and counterprotest in NYC — 1,000 against the mosque near Ground Zero and 200 for it.

They were mostly peaceful, and they didn't really disagree at a high level of abstract principle. All — or mostly all — believe in freedom of religion, respect for the WTC victims, and opposition to those who attacked us on 9/11.

Off the abstract level, we have our troubles... but can you feel the harmony... now and then?

207 comments:

1 – 200 of 207 Newer› Newest»

Big Mike said...: Supporters carried signs reading, "America! When did it become OK to be a bigot!" and screamed "Hallowed ground, that's a lie!"

Well of course! Reasonable cannot look at the same set of facts and reach a different conclusion. Nope. The only reason anyone fails to toe the liberal line is because of bigotry. Right. Got that. And if the liberal position says that there is no such thing as hallowed ground, then, by golly, there isn't. So reasonable people can't feel that there is something special about the ground where the towers stood. Nope. They must be lying, trying to raise a smoke screen. But the liberal line sees right through it. Yup. Got it.

Is there a point where liberals decide to grow up? Probably not.

No doubt it's Bush's fault that they can't grow up. Yup. Must be.; 8/23/10, 9:55 AM
Anonymous said...: "Mostly peaceful" we have come to understand means the liberal protesters were not peaceful, in journospeak. Just mostly peaceful.; 8/23/10, 9:55 AM
Scott M said...: I'd say exceptionally peaceful, given that we are arguably the single most powerful nation in the history of the world. Sure, the shine is off a bit, but we're still the number 1 economy, have an exceptional military and, gasp, our changing of power has peaceful since we got going.

Assassinations as the result of vengeance (Lincoln) or dark wizards (Kennedy) don't count.; 8/23/10, 9:58 AM
Mick said...: Prof. Althouse said,
"Obama's lolling at high levels of abstract principle and avoiding the specifics of applying principle to real problems is not the way of the law professor."

Right, yet you ignore the very specific, and very important A2S1C5of the USC, that the POTUS be a Natural Born Citizen. Obama clearly has shown that he lacks the prerequisite attachmant and allegiance to this country that should be clear in the Commander In Chief. You and the rest of the "intelligista" have failed, or have been bullied into, accepting an ineligible POTUS. Shame!!!; 8/23/10, 10:07 AM
MadisonMan said...: Many people are both for and against the Mosque.

For the idea of being able to build a place of worship, and worship there, just about anywhere without the Government saying two words for or against it. But against building the Mosque in that particular location.; 8/23/10, 10:07 AM
Big Mike said...: FWIW, over at Blackfive, Uncle Jimbo -- who participated -- estimates "several thousand."; 8/23/10, 10:11 AM
Unknown said...: It's 7 to 3 across the country and 5 to 1 in Gotham. I'd say the American people are about as close to harmony as they get. For you know who, the problem is not incoherence, but congenital deafness.

Ann Althouse said...

All — or mostly all — believe in freedom of religion, respect for the WTC victims, and opposition to those who attacked us on 9/11.

With all due respect, I'd say, for the 200 counter-protestors, the phrase is more likely 'pay lip service to', rather than 'believe in'. Anybody want to put money on how many of the 200 are veterans of the ANSWER demonstrations a few years ago?; 8/23/10, 10:20 AM
Chennaul said...: Did anyone else read-that it was raining?

Actually I just followed the link and you can see umbrellas in the pictures.

Rain probably put a damper on things.

Madison Man-

If you are referring to the poll answer options-they are really bad.

It's weird how 61% of the country as polled by Time is against the mosque being built there-but 73% of the respondents at the linked site feel that "it's pure religious bigotry against Muslims".

Which side thinks they do nuance better again?; 8/23/10, 11:05 AM
Fred4Pres said...: Many people are both for and against the Mosque.

For the idea of being able to build a place of worship, and worship there, just about anywhere without the Government saying two words for or against it. But against building the Mosque in that particular location.

Thank you. That is exactly correct.

If Iman Faisal Abdul Rauf strongly condemned the perpetrators of 9/11 (unconditionally) or included a small church and synogogue in it, I would not oppose the project. I would not make that demand of any mosque, just this one, because it is within the ground zero zone (the Burlington Coat Factory was hit by the landing gear of one of the jets) and it was an attack done in the name of Islam.

But the promoters are not doing that. So I respond back accordingly.; 8/23/10, 11:12 AM
Chennaul said...: Whoops!

There was one scuffle:

Later a scuffle broke out at the site of the pro-mosque protest a when a mosque opponent held up a sign that read, "I can draw Mohammed if you can build a mosque."

See that's the sign that possibly drew blood.; 8/23/10, 11:13 AM
Phil 314 said...: Hmmm

this

vs

this

Righteousness measured by crowd size?

I've seen this game before.; 8/23/10, 11:14 AM
Phil 314 said...: Mick;
We missed you and your insightful comments.; 8/23/10, 11:16 AM
Richard Dolan said...: Harmony? Mostly I'm hearing bad 12-tone melody.; 8/23/10, 11:22 AM
jr565 said...: Madison Man wrote:
Many people are both for and against the Mosque.

For the idea of being able to build a place of worship, and worship there, just about anywhere without the Government saying two words for or against it. But against building the Mosque in that particular location.

Seriously though, despite all the assertions of people like HD House and Alpha Liberal that this is an issue of religious freedom, what legitimate person be they politician or otherwise has ever suggested that muslims don't have a right to build mosques or pray. Has there been any incidence anyone can point to where since 9/11 mosques were razed to the ground and muslims told they were not allowed to pray. Is Peter king unaware that we have mosques that have been built and which muslims pray at already? So why do people like Alpha Liberal keep beating this straw man argument.
As to the sign "Hallowed ground, that's a lie" with all respect to the holder of that sigh - he/she can go f themselves. I actually don't hold the view that it's hallowed, but it certainly is worthy of veneration, respect and significance (if some want to call that hallowed than so be it). It's for better or worse a landmark for this country of one of the greatest attacks we've ever faced right in the middle of manhnattan. Of course libs would be waving that sign because to a good number of them there is no such thing as a terrorist threat, or they think that it was Bush that brought down the towers. To actually acknowledge the importance of the site diminshes their own argument and shows how petty and divisive the left has been for the past 8 years.; 8/23/10, 11:23 AM
Lucien said...: Suppose the developers of the Cordoba Center (have I got the name right?) agree to build it without a mosque, or anything too "mosque-y" in it -- then can everybody go home happy?; 8/23/10, 11:32 AM
Wince said...: I think the evolving perception of Obama is central to this controversy.

Obama was elected based on a widely held perception that he'd be one kind of leader, and has since governed as another, for many a realization of some of their worst fears.

As a result, I think many more people now view the promise that an immovable Cordoba Center will serve as a bridge between cultures with more skepticism than otherwise without Obama.; 8/23/10, 11:46 AM
pm317 said...: well, this mosque thing is going to hurt Obama politically. He got involved where he needn't have. Here is a bit of Martha's Vineyard happenings from a resident there.

A funny thing happened at the bank last week. Vineyarders were quietly queued up for their transactions and the tellers were doing their thing when a woman came bursting through the door, her arms angling in the air, loudly exclaiming, “He’s coming! Obama’s coming! He’s out there! He’s coming up the street now!” A few heads turned to stare at the disturbance and one older woman with an edge in her voice that would cut glass stepped a few inches out of queue to respond dramatically. “Is he attended by celestial choirs?”

One or two ha-rumphs were heard and a titter or two, but the quiet bank routine continued undisturbed. The woman at the door, suddenly feeling awkward and perhaps embarrassed, abruptly left. After her exit, a Vineyard gent was seen stretching out his arm to offer a handshake to congratulate the woman in the adjacent queue who had inquired about the celestial choirs and then everyone became very cheerful.; 8/23/10, 11:53 AM
Mick said...: c3 said...
"Mick;
We missed you and your insightful comments."

I was away in Manhattan, the belly of the Government Media Complex beast. How is it that a "Law Prof" doesn't know the meaning of the term Natural Born Citizen? And you still haven't answered the questionn: WHERE (SCOTUS, or statute) does it say that anyone born in the US, regardless of parentage, is a Natural Born Citizen, eligible to be POTUS? Prof. Althouse won't answer either (she can't).; 8/23/10, 12:03 PM
Beth said...: MadisonMan,

Succinct and sensible.; 8/23/10, 12:08 PM
Big Mike said...: @Madman, I think that if there was a competent poll taken it would come out pretty much like:

65% - Agree that the First Amendment gives the Muslim group the right to build their mosque near the site of the Twin Towers, but regard it somewhere between thoughtless and inflamatory, and wish they'd build it elsewhere. (I'm in this category, and so is Karen Hughes, and, apparently, so are about 75% of the Althouse commentators.)

3% - Think it should be illegal to build a mosque in lower Manhattan. How they reconcile this with the First Amendment is left unstated.

1% - Think it should be illegal to build a mosque anywhere.

10% - Think that we should be tolerant of the mosque, demonstrating that we are bigger and more noble than the Taliban and al Qaeda. Though whether the Taliban and al Qaeda would actually interpret it that way is something they don't seem to want to deal with.

20% - Are in favor of anything that pisses off Christians and other "bitter clingers."

1% - Think that we should have capitulated to al Qaeda on 9/12/2001. If not sooner.; 8/23/10, 12:16 PM
Robert Cook said...: There's one thing and one thing only driving the anti-Park51 hysteria: religious bigotry.

That's it,and those who might harumph harumph about "hallowed ground" and so on are merely trying to pretty up the hateful truth.

Discussion of how many Americans oppose the location of the Muslim community center as opposed to the lesser number of Americans who support it does not bolster the legitimacy of the opposition view, but merely reminds us how recently it has been in our history that a majority of Americans openly favored or supported racial segregation, with much similar high-minded rhetorical bullshit (along with the more frank naked racism) heard then, as now. It also mirrors the anti-Semitism that has long abided in our country, and I'm appalled the Jewish community has not rallied to the cause of the Muslim center, which is not a mosque so much as the equivalent of a Muslim YMCA.

American the Ugly...same as it ever was.; 8/23/10, 12:18 PM
howzerdo said...: Madison Man: exactly.

madawaskan: it was not just raining in NY yesterday, it was at times pouring rain.; 8/23/10, 12:25 PM
Michael said...: Robert Cook: You are wrong.; 8/23/10, 12:25 PM
ricpic said...: I don't disagree with placing a mosque at ground zero on "a high level of abstract principle;" I disagree because I don't want my ass to be Allah's property. And for all the sophisticates out there who poo poo that possibility, for once in your life think ahead one or two generations, or simply look across the pond.; 8/23/10, 12:33 PM
Ralph L said...: If it were bigotry, we would oppose ALL new mosques.

I wonder if the developer ginned this controversy up to attract Saudi money.; 8/23/10, 12:40 PM
Chennaul said...: howzerdo-

Thanks for the info.

Robert Cook-

Whelp for your information I was neutral on the idea-or slightly in favor.

But, it's the likes of your argument that have really made me see it in a different way.

I thought awhile about it and I figured as an analogy-being Irish Catholic I would get it if Brits were offended or opposed to an Up with Irish Catholics Centre being built just nine years later near a site where 3,000 Brits were killed by the IRA.

Unlike you, I don't think so little of Muslims that I assume they are incapable of coming to the same understanding. Or worse -as a lot of Liberals were making the argument -that somehow Muslims will presume that we are at war with all Muslims instead of just radical Muslim killers simply because we feel that people need more time to heal and they have a right to suspect that the location is being exploited.

Of course with all the Liberal moaning about compassion and understanding somehow they don't have that or give that to the survivors and families of those murdered on 9/11.

Instead they call those still recovering-bigots.

Beautiful.; 8/23/10, 12:51 PM
Anonymous said...: American the Ugly...same as it ever was.

Robert Cook the dumb Stalinist... same as it ever was.

I think that remnants of the Khmer Rouge still live in the jungles of Cambodia, Bob.

Why don't you go live there?

Maybe they'll dig up the corpse of Pol Pot. That would even provide you with a sex life.; 8/23/10, 12:51 PM
Big Mike said...: Only two minutes after my post, Robert Cook put himself in that last 1%.; 8/23/10, 12:57 PM
A.W. said...: btw, in related news, Roger Ebert goes full metal idiot on this.

http://allergic2bull.blogspot.com/2010/08/going-full-metal-idiot-on-gzm.html; 8/23/10, 1:09 PM
traditionalguy said...: Round and around we go. Where we will end no one knows. If this deliberate confusion is all the educated elites opinion makers can provide to us, then they need to be fired. The simple truth is that this is the battlefield of the Islamic Empire's attack. It is not a religious issue any more than the cratered concrete and steel bunkers on the bluffs, such as Pointe du Hoc, at the beaches of Normandy are a religious issue. While the soldiers who died there may have been Christians and Jews fighting a neo-pagan Fuhrer's plans, that is not the issue. The issue is who won. The Islamic Empire needs to find out that their ecstatic 9/11 victory is not a final victory.; 8/23/10, 1:15 PM
ricpic said...: Useless to address Robert Cook since I'll never be able to comprehend the mind of someone who hates his country...oh, I forgot, America isn't perfect, therefore...; 8/23/10, 1:18 PM
Anonymous said...: As I've been trying to tell you, the bigot obsession of the left has gone ballistic.

The left has been telling itself for 50 years that bigotry is the source of all evil, and that eradicating bigotry will return us to the Garden of Eden.

This is no longer political theory. It's religion, precisely as the Crackster says.

The definition of bigotry keeps growing. Well, it's maxed out now. Bigotry is anything leftists disagree with. A bigot is anybody who doesn't fully subscribe to the cult.

It's the BIGOTS! It's always the BIGOTS!

The left is operating on a Universal Theory of Bigotry which explains all things.

It's utter madness, and what makes it even more insane is that the dumb fucks thinks that it's an intellectual analysis.; 8/23/10, 1:25 PM
Matt said...: The fact is Muslims are always put on the defensive. They are always expected to apologize for 9/11. They have to walk a bit of a tighter rope than the rest of us. And this is because a number of Americans believe ALL Muslims are the same. We would not accept if someone said ALL Jews are the same or ALL Christians are the same.

We can agree or disagree about the building of the mosque in NY. That is a fair argument. But where it gets a bit crazy is when you have people in Tennessee who freak out because a mosque is going up in the hood. And it is because they buy the propaganda that is being espoused by some [not all] conservatives.

Hint - it's election season.; 8/23/10, 1:31 PM
Hagar said...: I think Republicans should go to the kitchen for some beer or popcorn and just sit down and watch while the Democrats fight this out among themselves (Muslims do not seem to have all that much to do with this), and maybe at some point it will become a little clearer what, if anything, is behind all the hoopla.; 8/23/10, 1:36 PM
Anonymous said...: Matt,

Nobody is hurting Muslims anywhere in the U.S., including in Tennessee.

Quit repeating lies.

Americans are concerned about Muslims because it's always a Muslim who's committing terrorist acts.

Muslims are murdering their daughters in honor killings.

Muslims are attempting to enforce Sharia law in some jurisdictions.

Your really full of shit, Matt.

Read my previous post. The Universal Theory of Bigotry is a stupid crock of shit.

Pull your head out of your ass for just a minute.; 8/23/10, 1:36 PM
Scott M said...: Matt

Please answer this then. Are Muslims always on the defensive, or do they just perceive that they are always on the defensive.

Then answer this one. Are Christians always on the defensive or do they just perceive that they are always on the defensive?

I don't recall widespread mosque-burnings and violence against resident Muslims immediately after 9/11. The press sure as hell wanted them, but it didn't happen. Doesn't that fact only speak to a level of tolerance you're not giving people at large credit for?; 8/23/10, 1:37 PM
A.W. said...: matt

0kay, what conservatives? quote them. the left always imagines vast right wing conspiracies, but never gets very specific.

wv trekaggi "Mr. Miyagi's brother is really into Star Trek, a real Trekaggi."; 8/23/10, 1:38 PM
Scott M said...: and maybe at some point it will become a little clearer what, if anything, is behind all the hoopla.

Of course we're going to find out. Himmler Pelosi is going to have everyone that opposes it investigated...und she has vays auf making you talk.; 8/23/10, 1:39 PM
Anonymous said...: We're seeing the results of 50 years of indoctrination in the schools here.

The kids have been indoctrinated thoroughly in the Universal Theory of Bigotry.

You can tell that, when they are confronted with anything that contradictds the Universal Theory of Bigotry, they panic.

It reminds of the mid-1950s, when schoolgirls lived in terror of boys seeing the reflection of their panties off their Mary Janes.

And, for those of you who don't remember Mary Janes, they're black patent leather shoes. Real shiny.; 8/23/10, 1:40 PM
jr565 said...: Robert Cook wrote:
American the Ugly...same as it ever was.

You're a dick.; 8/23/10, 1:41 PM
Scott said...: Don't you love farce?
My fault, I fear.
I thought that you'd want what I want -
Sorry, my dear.
But where are the trolls?
There ought to be trolls.
Quick, send in the trolls.; 8/23/10, 1:46 PM
Matt said...: shoutingthomas

You're misreading and interpreting my comment. I never said anyone was hurting Muslims. I simply said their is a standard applied to them that is not applied to others.

Read my comment again. You seem to be saying because SOME Muslims are doing things you don't like then ALL Muslims are to be blamed or viewed skeptically.

I say that is problematic. Similarly, I would not say you represent ALL conservatives. I would sure hope not....; 8/23/10, 1:49 PM
A.W. said...: Scott M:

your comment reminds me of a bad old joke. i suggest you read this out loud for best effect. A man has a pocket watch and brings it to a watchmaker.

"Vhat is wrong with it?" the watchmaker says in a heavy german accent.

"well, sir, it only makes the sound, tick. Listen." he said, and then wound up the watch.

The watchmaker held it to his ear and and surely enough it just went "tic... tic... tic..."

So the watchmaker looks steely eyed at the watch and says, "Ve have vays auf making you tock."; 8/23/10, 1:54 PM
jr565 said...: Madawaskan wrote:
Of course with all the Liberal moaning about compassion and understanding somehow they don't have that or give that to the survivors and families of those murdered on 9/11.

To Robert and his ilk, Islam has nothing to apologize for and we have everything to apologize. We've always been racist and always will be racist. ALl sins of the world fall on our shoulders and we are the unique purveyors of all things wrong in the world.
We are the ones who always have to show compassion and understanding, even when someone shoves a stick in our eye...because we deserve it. We suck. The fact that it was our city that was attacked and 3000 of our citizens that were killed is irrelevant to the penance that we must pay for our sins. And they just attacked us for our policies anyway. Our evil policies. They never have to show compassion to our policies, but we must show compassion for theirs. Forever.

If Robert was educated in an American school then we should be abolishing education, because if it produces such twisted assholes as Robert, then we shouldn't be paying tax dollars for our own destruction. Because people like Robert are the ones who will not be happy till this country is a smoldering wreck.
If however Robert is not even a citizen and is speaking out about our country, then I have to call fowl. How different is his endless carping about our sins than Iran's mullahs screaming "death to America". And yet I suppose Robert wants compassion for his anti american diatribe. We should bend over and take it because we are sinful and need punishment. And Robert is the one to administer it.
There is a discussion about Islam and is it radical or is it peaceful. Maybe we should expand the discussion to ask about liberalism. Are all liberals as anti amerikkkan as Robert or is he a unique anomaly of hatred? Do 30% of Liberals espouse what Robert does, and if so, should we not recognize that 30% as outright enemies?; 8/23/10, 1:57 PM
Scott M said...: Let's all try to remember the fundamental truth that all human endeavors exist on a bell curve and that outliers like Robert occur on both sides where the shit collects at the bottom of the slope.; 8/23/10, 2:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Read my comment again. You seem to be saying because SOME Muslims are doing things you don't like then ALL Muslims are to be blamed or viewed skeptically. .

I haven't got a clue what the fuck you're talking about.

You've been indoctrination in the great Universal Theory of Bigotry, so of course you must recite the pledge.

What difference does it make whether some or all Muslims are terrorists?

If you'd prefer not to be blown to hell by a terrorist bomb, you'd be well advised to keep a close eye on Muslims.

Indoctrination in the Universal Theory of Bigotry is turning you into an idiot.

Understanding that the terrorist who plans to blow you to hell is likely to be a Muslim is not leading American to string Muslims up from a tree.

So, what is your bitch?; 8/23/10, 2:02 PM
Matt said...: Scott M

Let me try to clarify. No one is hurting Muslims or burning mosques. [Where do you get that??] But since 9/11 people do view Muslims with a bit of skepticism. This is natural for most people after such an attack. Due to that the building of a mosque now in NY has become a red hot topic. And due to that mosques built in other places has become a topic as well. In most cases the skepticism is an overreaction by people who are buying into fear.

That, in turn, puts high profile Muslims who want to build mosques in the spotlight. This Iman in NY was for a while considered a 'good' Muslim. Suddenly he is now seen as someone who wants to build a 'terrorist training ground' by the likes of Dick [foot licker] Morris. What the what?

I'm simply saying I think there is an overreaction by some on the right over this issue.; 8/23/10, 2:02 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: We would not accept if someone said ALL Jews are the same or ALL Christians are the same.

Matt your argument would have a shred of credibility if the left hadn't spent the last half a century demonizing Christianity. You know, where faithful Christians are referred to as Jesus-freaks who cling to their religion, whose holy icons are defaced in the name of 'artistic expression'.

The left's rabid defense of Islam, its adherents and cries of 'bigotry' sure says lot about you.; 8/23/10, 2:03 PM
GMay said...: Robert Cook projected: "There's one thing and one thing only driving the anti-Park51 hysteria: religious bigotry."

I, for one, am thankful for an opening sentence that lets you know you don't have to slog through the rest of the comment.; 8/23/10, 2:08 PM
Anonymous said...: That, in turn, puts high profile Muslims who want to build mosques in the spotlight. This Iman in NY was for a while considered a 'good' Muslim. Suddenly he is now seen as someone who wants to build a 'terrorist training ground' by the likes of Dick [foot licker] Morris. What the what?

I'm simply saying I think there is an overreaction by some on the right over this issue.

Really?

Mosques in New Jersey were used as staging grounds for the 9/11 attack. Radical imans preached terrorism and harbored terrorists in mosques in Brooklyn and New Jersey.

Read the story of Lynn Stewart, the radical attorney who was recently jailed for conspiracy to abet a terrorist iman in, I believe, New Jersey.

Many people believe that the Cordoba mosque will be used for the same purposes.

They have good reason to believe this.

You are so thoroughly indoctrinated in the Universal Theory of Bigotry that you can't see what's going on in front of your face.

The notion that Islam is a religion of peace doesn't appear to me to be entirely accurate. The Koran advises Muslims to murder infidels.

Do you think they're kidding?; 8/23/10, 2:09 PM
write_effort said...: I've been trying to get my head around this controversy. One way I've tried to think about it:

Say, Nazis bombed the World Trade Center.

A group of German-Americans decide to build a community center 2-blocks from the site.

Wouldn't the nation's response be the same? Don't do it.

I actually have little problem with the Cordoba center as Islamic moderates need all the help they can get. I'm a German-American, however, and when I put it in my own cultural context, I think: pick another spot. Trying to figure that one out.; 8/23/10, 2:12 PM
Matt said...: Hoosier Daddy

Interesting how you take my rather measured comment and paint me as some extreme leftists. Dude, I don't speak for the left nor does it represent me.

Here is a simple statement:

We would not accept if someone said ALL Jews are the same or ALL Christians are the same so why would some accept the fact that ALL Muslims are the same?

There is nothing 'rabid' about what I am saying. I am certainly not defending most of the insane practices of the Islamic religion in the Middle East. Still, I would not protest them building a house of worhip here. American Muslims are not to be confused with terrorists any more than Christians are not to be confused with abortion clinic bombers.

And note I am calling no one a bigot. I'm saying the anti-mosque crowd is overreacting.; 8/23/10, 2:14 PM
Anonymous said...: Still, I would not protest them building a house of worhip here. American Muslims are not to be confused with terrorists any more than Christians are not to be confused with abortion clinic bombers.

And note I am calling no one a bigot. I'm saying the anti-mosque crowd is overreacting.

In theory that's wonderful, Matt.

But, as I said, we here in New York know that there is a long and tragic history of mosques being staging grounds for terrorist attacks.

Mosques led by radical imans in Brooklyn and New Jersey encouraged and abetted the 9/11 attacks.

We know this.

So, how in the hell are we overreacting?

You think that the radical imans and terrorists have sworn to behave themselves if only we're more tolerant?; 8/23/10, 2:17 PM
Scott M said...: @write_effort

I see where you're going here, but the more appropriate analogy would be a group of Nazis building a community center after a Nazi attack.

You see, not all Germans were Nazis and not all Nazis would have participated in your hypothetical attacks. Thus, a different group of Nazis, especially if they were presenting themselves as reformed Nazis, should be able to build a community center, complete with swastikas, iron crosses, and eagles, a mere hop, skip and a jump away from the attack.

Similarly, not all Saudi's are Muslim and not all Muslims participated in 9/11...etc, etc.; 8/23/10, 2:17 PM
Anonymous said...: So, what if you're wrong, Matt?

What if the Cordoba mosque isn't really just a place of worship?

What if, like a number of mosques in Brooklyn and New Jersey, it's a cover for radical imans? What if it provides cover for terrorists in training? What if it is a funding channel for terrorists around the world?

Mosques have been used for that purpose, right here in Brooklyn and New Jersey.

So, again, how are we overreacting?; 8/23/10, 2:21 PM
Scott M said...: We would not accept if someone said ALL Jews are the same or ALL Christians are the same so why would some accept the fact that ALL Muslims are the same?

Granted. But let's look at the present and not the past. Judaism and Christianity are religions only. A very strong argument can be made that Islam is a political ideology with religious trappings.

Judaism and Christianity are not pushing for worldwide domination. Neither are they slamming planes into city buildings in the middle east or blowing themselves up in markets. If there are any Christian or Jewish children's television shows that indoctrinate hate and "eating" their opposite number, I'd like to know about them so I can begin a campaign forthwith to get it boycotted and/or canceled.; 8/23/10, 2:21 PM
Matt said...: shoutingthomas

You are about as reasonable as hemorrhoids. Let me ask you if you were king of the world would you just round up all Muslims, fly them to the Middle East and then drop a few nuclear bombs on them?
I see no subtlety in how you would deal with this grave threat we apparently have.

You seem to live in fear. Take a pill. Or maybe get out of your basement and meet a few Muslims.

I think you may be the extremist....; 8/23/10, 2:22 PM
pm317 said...: The supporters of the mosque are making this about the opponents and the opponents seem truly worried about the symbolism of it both for the 9/11 victims and for the Muslim bad guys. Context is everything -- 9/11 context. Didn't people like Matt learn anything from the good professor? I say the supporters should back off.; 8/23/10, 2:22 PM
Scott said...: Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

write_effort violates Godwin's Law at 2:12 p.m. blog time.; 8/23/10, 2:22 PM
GMay said...: Matt said: "But since 9/11 people do view Muslims with a bit of skepticism. This is natural for most people after such an attack."

If 9/11 happened in a vacuum, you might have a valid point. When you look around the world and see that the vast majority of terrorist acts are committed by Muslims in the name of their religion, it's not only reasonable, but prudent to ask difficult questions.

Let's just look at the United States since looking at the rest of the world would make this comment too long. We've had one successful terrorist attack since 9/11. Two only failed due to the incompetence of the terrorists. Had they succeeded, NY would have had it's third terrorist attack and Detroit its first. In all four cases I reference here, the attacks were committed by Muslims for Islam.

If Islam is a fundamentally strong Religion of Peace™, they should not only be able to answer the tough questions, but welcome them. Instead, we hear cries of "Bigotry!" and "Intolerance!" instead of an honest self-assessment. This is what we hear from the so-called "moderate" Muslims.

The left merely enables.; 8/23/10, 2:22 PM
Robert Cook said...: Matt said,

"And note I am calling no one a bigot. I'm saying the anti-mosque crowd is overreacting."

Matt...come close, so I can whisper something to you to explain their "overreacting."

(...they're bigots....); 8/23/10, 2:23 PM
Fen said...: Robert Cook: There's one thing and one thing only driving the anti-Park51 hysteria: religious bigotry.

Ha. That doesnt even deserve a response.

Other than this: 5 years from now, would it suprise anyone to learn that "Robert Cook" is the handle of some clerk spewing forth anti-american propaganda from his Hezbollah compound?

You should check it out Robert. They usually PAY for someone to post nonsense like yours. You really shouldn't debase yourself like this for free.; 8/23/10, 2:24 PM
Anonymous said...: You are about as reasonable as hemorrhoids. Let me ask you if you were king of the world would you just round up all Muslims, fly them to the Middle East and then drop a few nuclear bombs on them?
I see no subtlety in how you would deal with this grave threat we apparently have.

I've advocated no such thing, Matt.

Once again, your indoctrination in the Universal Theory of Bigotry has driven you to complete idiocy.

You haven't answered my question.

We know that mosques in New Jersey and Brooklyn, run by radical imans, harbored and abetted the 9/11 attacks. This is a fact.

Several of these imans are in prison for life.

How do you know that the Cordoba mosque won't be used for the same purpose? Why are you so sure that it won't be used as a cover for funding and training for terrorists.

Mosques in Brooklyn and New Jersey have been, and continue to be, used for precisely those purposes.; 8/23/10, 2:26 PM
Fen said...: I've been trying to get my head around this controversy. One way I've tried to think about it:

Say, Nazis bombed the World Trade Center.

A group of German-Americans decide to build a community center 2-blocks from the site.

Exactly. Except its not a community center, its a staging arena.; 8/23/10, 2:27 PM
Anonymous said...: Remember Matt, when I said that the kids who've been indoctrinated in the Universal Theory of Bigotry panic whenever the theory is challenged.

You've just provided a textbook example.

How does suggesting a reasonable regard for self defense translate into a desire to nuke the Muslim world?

You are so thoroughly indoctrinated in the Universal Theory of Bigotry that you have literally lost your mind.

There is an element of sensible self-defense involved in being wary of the motives and actions of the people behind the building of the Cordoba mosque.

Your response, which is that even be aware of the need for self-defense is the same as advocating nuclear genocide speaks volumes for just how crazy the indoctrination in the Universal Theory of Bigotry has made you.

You almost wet your pants when the theory was challenged.; 8/23/10, 2:31 PM
GMay said...: Shorter Robert Cook:

"I can't even recognize the bigot in the mirror."; 8/23/10, 2:32 PM
Fen said...: Oh my bad, I forgot:

We are pretending the calls for Jihad aren't coming from their mosques.

And we're pretending that American-Muslims have not been mostly silent and consenting.

Carry on.; 8/23/10, 2:34 PM
Matt said...: shoutingthomas

Okay so if we say that mosques are used as recruting centers then you elimnate mosques. But if not a mosque then a house or a warehouse or a McDonalds. I mean if you fear Muslims gathering together to make plans then that means you fear Muslims basically congregating anywhere. So why would a mosque be any different?

So again, what is your plan. Stop building mosques, tear down exising mosques and then have one FBI agent for every Muslim in America?

I mean at a certain point you need to take a stand on what you think is the best course of action against Muslims. You are not doing that. You are just espousing fear and paranoia.; 8/23/10, 2:40 PM
Scott said...: It was pretty clear from the start that the Cordoba Institute wanted to provoke the response that it got. In fact, they have been wildly successful in using it to promote the myth that Muslims in the United States are hatefully oppressed by average Americans. This is 100% political theater -- Cameron Mackintosh has got nothing on them!

There is no significant Muslim community in lower Manhattan; and the place promises to be a money pit for its backers. If the anti-mosque people really wanted the project to wither away, they would ignore it. But the protesters need to feel righteously inflamed (it feels good to be pissed off) and the Cordoba Institute needs the controversy. One hand washes the other.; 8/23/10, 2:43 PM
Dex Quire said...: Everybody, right/left chill. Sit back for a laugh: check out Barney Frank's version (among others) of the Koran:

http://dexquire.com/category/crocodile-words/chapter-1-crocodile-words/; 8/23/10, 2:46 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: Interesting how you take my rather measured comment and paint me as some extreme leftists. Dude, I don't speak for the left nor does it represent me.

I'm sorry but its just when I see the left getting the vapors over people protesting the building of a house of worship it brings out a chuckle in me. I mean its amusing to see their newfound love and respect for religion.

Then again, despite the breathless cries of bigotry from the likes of Robert Cook, its really not Americans who need a lesson in outreach and tolerance but rather this Imam's fellow co-religionists who reside in places where women arre second class citizens, gays are criminalized and the most basic freedoms non-existant. That's what offends me; that this mosque is necessary because we need to be lectured on tolerance.; 8/23/10, 2:47 PM
Joe said...: Okay so if we say that mosques are used as recruting centers then you elimnate mosques. But if not a mosque then a house or a warehouse or a McDonalds.

Except there are no “Friday Prayers” at the local Mickey-D’s wherein Imam’s call for the imposition of Shari’a Law or support Jihad. But other than that little detail I see your point(s.); 8/23/10, 2:48 PM
Chennaul said...: It gives me a vision of a future 9/11 site as some kind of ultra weird tourist trap.; 8/23/10, 2:55 PM
Chennaul said...: There's something cheap, diminishing, exploitive, trivializing and opportunistic about it.

The imam gets greater value and notoriety from it all based on-location, location, location.

The Democratic leadership and the Liberal media seem to say-the site has no greater value or meaning. It's the equal of all other property.

It deserves no extra consideration, and if you think it does you are a-

bigot.; 8/23/10, 3:01 PM
Fen said...: Hey Matt,

Would you please just acknowledge this:

We know that mosques in New Jersey and Brooklyn, run by radical imans, harbored and abetted the 9/11 attacks. This is a fact.

Ya know, to separate yourself from the Al-Tajassus on this board.

Thanks.; 8/23/10, 3:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Okay so if we say that mosques are used as recruting centers then you elimnate mosques. But if not a mosque then a house or a warehouse or a McDonalds. I mean if you fear Muslims gathering together to make plans then that means you fear Muslims basically congregating anywhere. So why would a mosque be any different?

So again, what is your plan. Stop building mosques, tear down exising mosques and then have one FBI agent for every Muslim in America?

I mean at a certain point you need to take a stand on what you think is the best course of action against Muslims. You are not doing that. You are just espousing fear and paranoia.

No, I go to work every day in Manhattan. So, I'm not espousing fear and paranoia. I fully expect Manhattan to be nuked within the next decade. It's inevitable. The jihadis have made it clear that they intend to do this.

You've gone to incredible extremes in your response. Once again, you are panicking in the face of heresy. The Universal Theory of Bigotry is your religion.

An adequate regard for self-defense is what I am suggesting. The history of the use of mosques for planning and staging terrorists attacks is a reality. So, you plan your self-defense in light of that reality.

I suspect that even President Obama, now that he is in office and is privy to confidential security information, is keeping a close eye on radical imans in U.S. mosques. Believe me, he doesn't want to be president when a dirty bomb is exploded in Manhattan, which is the plan.

So, Manhattan has suffered two terrorist attacks, in 1993 and 2001, both aided and abetted by radical imans in local mosques.

The plan now, well articulated by Muslim terrorists, is to smuggle a dirty bomb into Manhattan.

What's your plan? Surrender? Throw up your hands and declare that we should refrain from hurting the feelings of Muslims even if the result is the destruction of Manhattan?

Iran will soon have the plutonium necessary to build a dirty bomb. The reality is getting closer every day.

What's your solution? Do you believe that the declarations of the leaders of Iran that they will nuke Israel when the opportunity arises should not be believed? Do you think that Al-Queda will give up its plans to detonate a dirty bomb in Manhattan if only we're more tolerant?

Does the duty to refrain from bigotry include a vow to commit suicide rather than harbor reasonable suspicions about the New York mosque?; 8/23/10, 3:03 PM
Scott said...: @madawaskan: Tourist trap? Too late. The World Trade Center site is already the #1 free tourist attraction in New York City.

Am I the only one offended by the site's informal name, "Ground Zero?"; 8/23/10, 3:07 PM
Joe said...: I feel sorry for Muslims in America, today. My people, the Irish and the Polish came to America, and were not welcomed either…like the Muslims we were “different” viewed as a threat, too Catholic, or Jewish-in the case of Poles…too “superstitious”, from nations with no history of democracy, from nations with a long history of corruption and official malfeasance. People like Margaret Sanger saw us as threat to the nice WASP America, they had going.

Well our response was to assimilate, to become proud Americans…to proclaim, constantly our love for this nation….it is reported that the majority of the young men on Guadalcanal or in the hedgerows of Normandy with the 82nd or the 101st were Catholics! We Catholics, or Jews, became supporters, and by dint of our unwavering support, we became accepted.

Today, too many people have to spend 5 minutes criticizing or apologizing for America, before you can say anything nice about her. And so Muslims come here, and rather than become unapologetic Americans and partisans for the US, Muslims seem to feel that first, one must criticize the US. Or that one can’t be seen as being a “stooge of the man” and so people like Imam Rauf have to spend a significant portion of their time criticizing the US. And it does not help the Muslim cause.

My advice, become more like Archie Bunker and a whole lot less like “Meat Head”…volunteer in larger-than-statistically significant numbers for combat duty with the US Armed Forces. Spend your time praising the US, thanking All*h that you are an American, point out exactly WHY you or your forebears came to this country. Someone talks about Islamophobia, ask about the Baha’i in Iran or the Copts in Egypt or the Shi’i in the Gulf States. Do that and folks will, in time, come around to you. Spend your time acting “tentative” about being an American, expect “tentative support” from Americans.; 8/23/10, 3:08 PM
Scott M said...: Am I the only one offended by the site's informal name, "Ground Zero?"

Probably.; 8/23/10, 3:08 PM
Matt said...: Hoosier Daddy

In America we should not take the standards set by Saudi Arabia or Islam extermists to be our standards either. I agree that Islam has some terrible standards in the Middle East. But not all Muslims interpret their religion and practice the same.

Yes, a mosque near ground zero is too close for comfort [to some]. But I'm just not going to paint ALL Muslims with a broad brush. If I do so at my peril well then that's why I live in America and not a totalitarian state.

One reason we went to war was to free the Muslims from Saddam [Iraq] as well as the Taliban [Afghanistan]. The idea was to reach out to the more moderate Muslims and have them push away and eliminate the extremists in their religion. I would like to think America can continually play a role in that. It starts with tolerance.; 8/23/10, 3:10 PM
Scott said...: OT: Any NYC-oriented Althousians want to meet someplace after the markets close for a libation, somtime this week?; 8/23/10, 3:11 PM
Scott said...: Probably.

That's sad.; 8/23/10, 3:12 PM
Fen said...: So why would a mosque be any different?

Mosques are protected from police action and military strikes.

In Iraq, they used mosques to store ammo and hide terrorists.

In Europe, they use mosques to recruit more terrorists. They also use them as administrative and logistical centers.

All under the cover of the Geneva Convention.

What? You think it will be any different in America?; 8/23/10, 3:12 PM
Joe said...: Yes, a mosque near ground zero is too close for comfort [to some]. But I'm just not going to paint ALL Muslims with a broad brush. If I do so at my peril well then that's why I live in America and not a totalitarian state.

One reason we went to war was to free the Muslims from Saddam [Iraq] as well as the Taliban [Afghanistan]. The idea was to reach out to the more moderate Muslims and have them push away and eliminate the extremists in their religion

Well then here’s a PERFECT opportunity for those “moderate” Muslims to speak up and act and ask that the Victory Mosque not be built. Reaching out means I extend a hand…YOU need to extend one back….as usual it’s the West that has to do the reaching, the Poor Benighted, Wronged ‘Other’” need not do anything equivalent, right?; 8/23/10, 3:13 PM
Chennaul said...: Scott-

Yikes. I'm going to have to gear up to follow that link.

The whole thing is depressing-I would join you for the drinks but I'm some 3,000 miles away.

Hope you get some NYCers to respond.

[Ya "Ground Zero" is a little weird now that I think about it.]; 8/23/10, 3:17 PM
Scott M said...: Matt,

Do you support our current judicial system or the right of religious communities in this country to have their own system of courts/judges/punishments according to their own beliefs?; 8/23/10, 3:20 PM
Scott said...: @Fen: You don't understand. We generously impart benign motives on the mosque builders. Therefore, their intentions must by definition be noble.

It's sort of like entering into a contract that only one party signs, isn't it? But that's the way the political class does things here.; 8/23/10, 3:21 PM
A.W. said...: btw, new audio from the imam. seems he is a tad more radical than first thought.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/08/explosive-in-faisals-own-words.html; 8/23/10, 3:21 PM
Matt said...: shoutingthomas

I don't know what the Universal Theory of Bigotry is but it seems like it could be similar to Universal Theory of Muslim Fear. In which case I don't qualify.

You’re waiting for the next bomb to go off in America so you can say you were right. I am waiting for sensible debate, tolerance and day to day business as usual. I hope I win.; 8/23/10, 3:23 PM
Joe said...: And I think a "Moderate Muslim" might want to start discussing the variuos passages of the Q'uran insulting Jews or advocating, or SEEMING, to advocate violence against the "Unbeliever."

And don't talk out of both sides of your mouth...don't talk aobut "freedom" in English, but Shari'a in Arabic when overseas.

Speak English, and talk about Religious Freedom and the RIght of jews, Christians, Muslims, or Atheists to believe and act ont hose beliefs, IN AMERICA, and ask why other Muslim nations can't match that record....In short, be a Stooge....; 8/23/10, 3:23 PM
Scott said...: @madawaskan: If you ever find yourself in the hood, let us all know. :); 8/23/10, 3:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, a mosque near ground zero is too close for comfort [to some]. But I'm just not going to paint ALL Muslims with a broad brush. If I do so at my peril well then that's why I live in America and not a totalitarian state.

You keep dodging the question, Matt.

Mosques were used in the planning and execution of the 1993 and 2001 attacks on the WTC.

Painting Muslims with a broad brush has nothing to do with it. You're bullshitting.

What if the Cordoba mosque is used to harbor and abet terrorists, and as a conduit for funding terrorists?

Try to get your head around this, Matt.

Do we have the right to defend ourselves? Or does the Universal Theory of Bigotry demand that we refuse to even consider the possibility, supported by the history of two attacks, that this mosque might be used for the same purpose?

Cut the generalized theoretical response. Tell me what we do in reality.; 8/23/10, 3:27 PM
Joe said...: I am waiting for sensible debate, tolerance and day to day business as usual. I hope I win.

I’m waiting for the Muslims in this nation to turn on the Wahabists and turn them out…you know participate in the “debate” rather than let extremists speak for them…like White Southerners who didn’t stand up to the Kl@n. Debate is back-and-forth, “Here’s my hand in friendship, Achmed” not “ Silence, I will Keeeeel you!” and a deadening silence from the other 95% of Muslims.; 8/23/10, 3:27 PM
Scott M said...: You’re waiting for the next bomb to go off in America so you can say you were right. I am waiting for sensible debate, tolerance and day to day business as usual. I hope I win.

Just playing the devil's advocate here, Matt, but what will you think if a huge bomb goes off in NY and it's coming from the same vector?

For the record, I hope and pray it never does. In that case you'll have the unaware luxury of having been right about this one...but what if?; 8/23/10, 3:27 PM
Anonymous said...: You’re waiting for the next bomb to go off in America so you can say you were right. I am waiting for sensible debate, tolerance and day to day business as usual. I hope I win.

No, I'm not "waiting for the next bomb to go off..." idiot.

I expect it, because the enemy has made it clear that that is what they expect to do.

You have lost your mind, Matt. The indoctrination has blinded you to reality.

The depth of your stupidity is marvelous and astonishing.; 8/23/10, 3:29 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: "All — or mostly all — believe in freedom of religion, respect for the WTC victims, and opposition to those who attacked us on 9/11. "

Bullshit.

One group supports real, true freedom with out the cheap excuses and the "but...."

The other group, including Althouse, believes in collective punishment and wants to blame all Muslims for the acts of a few radical individuals and to shut down the facility because Muslims own it. They are practicing rank bigotry.

Ron Paul nailed these "Sunshine partiots rather well:

"This is all about hate and Islamaphobia."

"It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty."

Shame on you, Ann Althouse, for joining the braying and bigoted mobs. You and your ilk are playing right into the hands of the violent militants, making our country look like we hate Muslims and are on a Crusade.; 8/23/10, 3:32 PM
Humperdink said...: WV: "Ground Zero"........when Obama orders the pilot of Air Force One to land immediately; 8/23/10, 3:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Shame on you, Ann Althouse, for joining the braying and bigoted mobs. You and your ilk are playing right into the hands of the violent militants, making our country look like we hate Muslims and are on a Crusade.

My God, OmegaLiberal, you're still bleeding from the gunshot wound to your head.

It's hard to believe that any sentient being can be as stupid as you, Omega.

So, in the spirit of good intentions, I'm just going to continue to assume that you were ambushed in a back alley and somebody shot you in the head.

There can be no other explanation.; 8/23/10, 3:35 PM
Fen said...: Hey Matt,

Would you please just acknowledge this:

We know that mosques in New Jersey and Brooklyn, run by radical imans, harbored and abetted the 9/11 attacks. This is a fact.

Ya know, to separate yourself from the Al-Tajassus on this board.

Thanks.

/2nd attempt; 8/23/10, 3:39 PM
Michael said...: Matt: You are trying, unsuccessfully, to conflate Muslim violence with opposition to the GZM. Find and listen to John Adams' Transmigration of Souls. Then view some video clips of people, human beings, leaping from the World Trade Center. Listen. Watch. Then try, progressively, to feel the pain that is expressed in the Adams piece and the utter horror of the falling human beings. Try to do that. Then climb down from your high horse and have a little sympathy for people who have been devastated by 9-11. Then see if you if you think everyone opposed to this at this location is a bigot, a redneck, a hick, a moron, a fool.; 8/23/10, 3:40 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: By the way, Islamaphobe Ann Althouse neglected to show this video of a black man having scorn, threats and ridicule heaped upon him by the racists opposing the construction of the Muslim community center on the hallowed grounds of the former Burlington Coat Factory.

In their world, there is no offense. A black man with a funny hat brought it upon himself by walking down the street where they were protesting.

We are not at war with Islam, Ann. Do you get it? Apparently, not.; 8/23/10, 3:42 PM
jr565 said...: Alpha Liberal Wrote:
"It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City?

WHO IS SAYING WE SHOULD NOT BUILD ANYMORE MOSQUES ANYWHERE IN THE CITY? Is that REALLY what 75% of the people are against. Or is it the locations of the mosque that is the issue. Do you REALLY think that if this community center were built in Staten Island that people would give two shits? WHY ARE THE BUILDERS OF THIS MOSQUE SO INSISTENT ON BUILDING IT IN THE EXACT SPOT THAT WILL CAUSE THE MOST OUTRAGE? Why must it always be about OUR apologizing for our sisn, or our racism. If the people building the mosque had any consideration for the feelings of family members of people who died on 9/11, and clearly there is some hurt feelings, they would find a location that didnt' cause such outrage. Shouldn't it be the moderate Muslims who need to differentiate themselves from the extremists and not us who have to view Islam blindly even when we know that Islam, at the very least has a side to it that is at war with us and hates us?
Rule number one for building bridges is don't dynamite them so people can't cross the bridge. And that is what the builders of the mosque are doing. Instead of respecting the anger this is engendering they are trying to prove a point about our intolerance. Tht's not building bridges. Simply move the mosque.
And you, alpha liberal, if you are so concerned with demagoguery don't be demagogic when suggesting those opposed to this mosque want to mosque to be built anywhere ever. That is completely distorting your opponents position, which is demagogic. So, stop being a hypocrite. I know it's tough for you since you are such a liberal, but give it a try.; 8/23/10, 3:43 PM
Scott said...: Shame on you, Ann Althouse, for joining the braying and bigoted mobs. You and your ilk are playing right into the hands of the violent militants, making our country look like we hate Muslims and are on a Crusade.

The Sock Puppet comes back from his all-day meme coordination seminar.

How can anyone -- ANYONE -- write fatuous nonsense like that and actually believe it? All the more reason to think that someone is PAYING this stooge to post it here.

It's like the Althouse blog has its very own Tariq Aziz. Some people just waste oxygen.; 8/23/10, 3:43 PM
Scott M said...: Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

LOL! From the side that invented political correctness (ie tyranny of speech) and the individual insurance mandate (just plain tyranny).

Liberty indeed. Central planning, one-size-fits-all'rs are the very last people I want to here anything from about liberty.; 8/23/10, 3:44 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Michael, you are insulting the 9/11 fallen by using their deaths as a cheap political ploy for the November elections.

Islam did not attack us on 9/11. A small group of radical extremists who are also Islam attacked us.

And there are intelligence reports that militant Islamic "chattering" has increased dramatically in the past two weeks.

Hate begets hate, Michael.; 8/23/10, 3:45 PM
Anonymous said...: Michael, you are insulting the 9/11 fallen by using their deaths as a cheap political ploy for the November elections.

I think another piece of your brain just fell out of your broken skull, Omega.

A gunshot wound to the head is very serious. You need to get the hospital right away before all your brains fall out the hole inflicted on your skull.; 8/23/10, 3:47 PM
AllenS said...: I went off to war, a long time ago. I like the sound of going on a Crusade a lot better.; 8/23/10, 3:47 PM
Matt said...: shoutingthomas

You're an extremist. No common sense or reason in your views.

At least 'Scott M' and 'Hoosier Daddy' and 'Joe' among others here have common sense. They may not agree with everything I say but we can find some common ground as Americans. You on the other hand are what they call 'Round the Bend. You don't want to debate you just want to shout.

Reminds me of this one woman on RightWingNews who no matter what the topic or debate always made insane rants that dealt with communism. It was like Sterling Hayden in Dr Strangelove.... After a while everyone shrugged and ignored her. And so it's time to ignore you.

Buh bye.; 8/23/10, 3:48 PM
Anonymous said...: You've got to admire that way a guy like OmegaLiberal, suffering from a bullet wound to the skull, continues to survive and maintain mobility, even as his brains drip out on the pavement.

It's a testament to human endurance.

I salute you, OmegaLiberal!

The incoherent babbling can be excused, considering the seriousness of your wounds.; 8/23/10, 3:50 PM
Revenant said...: There's one thing and one thing only driving the anti-Park51 hysteria: religious bigotry.

Bigotry: "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."

You can't be bigoted against just ONE religion. If you're completely intolerant of beliefs other than your own, you're a bigot. If you have different opinions about different religions, liking some more than others, the appropriate label is "person capable of rational thought".; 8/23/10, 3:51 PM
Scott said...: "Michael, you are insulting the 9/11 fallen by using their deaths as a cheap political ploy for the November elections."

And you're not. My God.

The Sock Puppet has gone beyond the pale. He is the clown with no shame.

How fucking could you, you shamelss, valueless, amoral shithead.; 8/23/10, 3:51 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Scott, you are a vacuous entity, well represented by a vegetable.

jr565, I did not say that. RON PAUL SAID THAT. Take your dumb questions to him Oh, wait, he address them all in his statement. (and, really, do you know what quotation marks and hyperlinks and attribution even mean? Means I didn't say it!)

The claim of hurt feelings is ridiculous unless someone believes that all Muslims bear collective guilt for the actions of al Qaeda. That, of course, is a dumb and prejudiced statement.

Your position is grounded in hatred of Muslims. Just admit it!; 8/23/10, 3:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Once again, Matt, you've refused to respond to direct questions about what you would do in reality.

You've responded once again with childish generalizations.

So, you've conceded.

You don't know what to do to defend Manhattan.

That was what I thought.; 8/23/10, 3:51 PM
Scott M said...: It would be nice, Matt (et al) if this blog could be one of those very few places where conversations could occur free of hyperbole and personal attacks, but I don't think the ep33ns here would allow it.

Frankly, a little snark now and then (who are we kidding...daily) is fun, but the absolute base crasness of personal attacks do nothing but drive up AA's hit count.

Hey, wait a minute...; 8/23/10, 3:51 PM
Michael said...: Alpha Liberal: Listen to the John Adams piece. Watch the people falling from the towers. Human beings. Have some decency and disappear with your sophomoric lessons on religious tolerance and your misrepresentation of what is at stake in this matter. Have some decency. Please.; 8/23/10, 3:52 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: And there are intelligence reports that militant Islamic "chattering" has increased dramatically in the past two weeks.

Meaning what? If we don't let them build their Victory Mosque at Ground Zero, they'll attack us again?

And to you, this is a reason in favor of the mosque?; 8/23/10, 3:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Drip! Plop! Drip! Plop!

That's the sound of OmegaLiberal's brains dripping out onto the pavement.

Get to a doctor please, Omega.

The babbling is getting crazier and crazier.; 8/23/10, 3:53 PM
Big Mike said...: Actually, Alpha, you're the one who is trying to score cheap political points.

Do you really think that 65% of the people in this country are blindly following extremist demagogues? I think you're one of the people Howard Dean was rebuking.

You really need to learn how to understand why someone is opposed to your position on any issue-- and not just this mosque -- and not immediately assume it's because they're fools, bigots, poltroons, or racists. That sort of approach won't change any minds, which by now you should have figured out.; 8/23/10, 3:53 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Revenant steps in it:

"Bigotry: "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."

You can't be bigoted against just ONE religion."

Islam is a creed and qualifies as "any creed."

The charge of bigotry against those who claim all Muslims are to blame for the attacks of 9/11 stands and stand for all time.

Because it is the truth. Even Ron Paul says so!

"This is all about hate and Islamaphobia."; 8/23/10, 3:53 PM
Anonymous said...: "This is all about hate and Islamaphobia."

I think I hear the death rattle settling in, OmegaLiberal.

I fear for the worst.

But, then again, you're used to operating with very little brain tissue.; 8/23/10, 3:55 PM
Scott M said...: The claim of hurt feelings is ridiculous unless someone believes that all Muslims bear collective guilt for the actions of al Qaeda.

Bueno, Alpha. I'll trust that you'll remember paint with extremely broad brushes is absolutely ridiculous and the very height of intellectual dishonestly. Further, I'll trust that you'll refrain from referring to all conservatives or "right-wingers" whenever you've got something hateful to say about someone one or a few from that side did or said.

Truly...a breakthrough.; 8/23/10, 3:55 PM
Scott said...: I was about two thousand feet from the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001. You weren't.; 8/23/10, 3:55 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Big Mike, I listened to, and tried to understand, the reasons people are against this Muslim Community Center built two blocks from Ground Zero.

I get it. It's not that hard to understand.

"Do you really think that 65% of the people in this country are blindly following extremist demagogues?"

They are being led by extremist demagogues and a lapdog press in this case but it's not as terrible as you make it sound.

I think they answered a biased poll question in such a way to give credence to that interpretation. In the same sort of poll questions an unreported other question got majority support and that was their right to build this facility.

This whole episode brings shame upon our nation, not just yourselves.

And Howard Dean fucked up.; 8/23/10, 3:57 PM
Scott said...: How the fuck would you know what shame is.; 8/23/10, 3:58 PM
kjbe said...: As for the call for sympathy and compassion, I will always have compassion for those touched by this tragedy and have learned the hard way that healing comes in its own time and does not often happen in ways we can predict. No one can say for certain that this building will provide opportunities to heal these terrible wounds, but I’m willing to make that bet. I have to, I’ve seen stranger things happen.; 8/23/10, 3:59 PM
Scott M said...: They are being led by extremist demagogues and a lapdog press in this case but it's not as terrible as you make it sound.

Only someone from your political bent thinks that large majority of people even need to be "led". Where are the meetings? Where are the marching orders? How did they organize? What is their hierarchy?

No, no. Individual opinions are for the elite. The rest of us have to be "led". The struggle, apparently, continues.

Oh, and I wouldn't run around quoting Paul if I were you, AL. I'm sure there's MANY other things Paul has said you would vehemently disagree with...so where does that leave you?; 8/23/10, 4:00 PM
AllenS said...: From my understanding, going on a Crusade is much better than going to war, because you can bring home a lot of loot. And you won't get in any trouble.; 8/23/10, 4:02 PM
Michael said...: Alpha Liberal: Listen to this music: http://www.amazon.com/John-Adams-Transmigration-Souls/dp/B0002JNLNM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1282597211&sr=1-1

Watch the human beings falling, jumping to their deaths.

Listen to the music. Reach for a bit of humanity. For yourself. You need it. Desperately.; 8/23/10, 4:02 PM
Scott said...: I just want to know who pays him to post such depravity.; 8/23/10, 4:04 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Well, Scott M, I will give you credit for flashes of independent thought from time to time.

And, I am quoting Ron-Freaking-Paul on this very page!! not exactly my fellow traveller.

So, obviously, I don't blame every conservative or Republican for the hatred voiced by the overwhelming majority of same.

Well, have fun with your hating, most of you conservatives out there.; 8/23/10, 4:05 PM
Scott said...: No shame, no conscience.

And if he ever slips and exposes who he writes this garbage for, it'll be big.; 8/23/10, 4:07 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Michael, you just restated a previously very flawed and offensive statement.

Why do you assign collective guilt to all Muslims? Do you understand that it was a group of extremist radicals who attacked?

Can you grasp that simple point?

We are not at war with Islam.; 8/23/10, 4:07 PM
Michael said...: Scott: No one would pay this person. His "blog" is as amateurish as his ideas are juvenile. Very soul-less character.; 8/23/10, 4:08 PM
Scott M said...: Graci, but

So, obviously, I don't blame every conservative or Republican for the hatred voiced by the overwhelming majority of same

every single time you make an imprecise comment that includes all you right-wingers, or conservatives, that exactly what you're doing. You carpet-bomb where an extra word or two that would bracket your true target would make it a surgical strike. You do it constantly, so change is unlikely. It would be welcomed though...unless, of course, you're just a pseudonym AA uses to crank up hits or are, indeed, being "led" by someone else.; 8/23/10, 4:10 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Scott M:

"Only someone from your political bent thinks that large majority of people even need to be "led". Where are the meetings? Where are the marching orders? How did they organize? What is their hierarchy?"

I never said there were meetings, marching orders or hierarchy, did I?

You honestly think this is a spontaneous organic issue that sprouted 3 months out from the election?

I guarantee you that Sarah, Rush, and Newt et al will have next to nothing more to say about this after the polls close.

Have you ever thought of investing in bridges?; 8/23/10, 4:11 PM
Michael said...: Alpha: I didn't write one word about hatred of Muslims or Islam. Not one. You are seriously without a soul, dude. Very seriously without a clue. Climb back on your high horse. And ride away. Please.

No one thinks we "at war with Islam" least of all me. You appear to be at war with reason. Your idea that the opposition to this mosque in this place is a declaration of "war against Islam" might resonate with a seventh grader, but it is foolish here. As are you.; 8/23/10, 4:12 PM
Scott said...: @Michael:

That's precisely why I'm sure he's being paid to write it. He comes across like every union hack I've ever known. None of these guys has any critical thinking capabilities. They just get paid to go blah blah blah blah blah. And then they go home to screw the wife and beat the kids.

If this guy cared about what he was saying, he wouldn't say it. That's why somebody has to be paying him. Think of Tariq Aziz. Except that Aziz had a brain, but hey, same shit.; 8/23/10, 4:14 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Scott M and his incessant whining:

"every single time you make an imprecise comment that includes all you right-wingers, or conservatives, that exactly what you're doing. "

Are you shocked to find gambling in casinos, too?

This is how we speak in politics. I caveat my statements WAY more than around here. Yet you pick me to make an issue of it.

Besides, conservatives are famous for their ability to march in lockstep, have that internal discipline that prevents them from criticizing other con's.

There have been a few notable exceptions in the Republican/Conservative/Anarchist community that have spoken out against this insanity: Joe Scarborough, Ted Olson, Ron Paul, and a few others.

The vast majority of conservatives, however, support this hateful and misleading campaign.

So, tough shit.; 8/23/10, 4:15 PM
Michael said...: Alpha Liberal: You find it offensive that I reference human beings falling, jumping from the World Trade Center? Is that a flawed statement? Are you evil as well as stupid?; 8/23/10, 4:15 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Michael:

"Alpha: I didn't write one word about hatred of Muslims or Islam"

But you did. You are saying that these Muslims must be prevented from building their community center, unlike ANY OTHER RELIGION, because of 9/11.

The only connection there is based on prejudice and bigotry -- hate.

The people trying to build this Community Center are NOT the ones that attacked us on 9/11. That you can't tell the difference, that you blame all Muslims, that's the hateful angle.

Not a difficult concept, really.; 8/23/10, 4:18 PM
Scott said...: AlphaLiberal is the Althouse blog equivalent to a porn bot on Yahoo Chat. They fool the newcomers, but to the regulars they're just background noise.; 8/23/10, 4:19 PM
Revenant said...: Islam is a creed and qualifies as "any creed."

You misread the definition. "Any creed that differs from one's own" doesn't mean "any ONE creed that differs from one's own". It means "any and all creeds that differ from one's own". A person tolerant of multiple creeds is not a bigot even if he is vehemently intolerant of others.

The charge of bigotry against those who claim all Muslims are to blame for the attacks of 9/11 stands and stand for all time.

If I ever meet anyone who thinks that, I'll be sure to let them know your opinion of them.

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

Even if it was, hating or fearing a religion doesn't make you a bigot. It might make you intolerant or prejudiced, if your fears turn out to be unjustified.; 8/23/10, 4:20 PM
Scott said...: Hmmmm ... AlphaSockPuppet or AlphaPornBot? The soulless clown with no shame.; 8/23/10, 4:21 PM
AllenS said...: According to the latest Rasmussen poll, 62% oppose the building of a mosque near where the World Trade Center stood in Lower Manhattan. Sounds like more than Conservatives oppose the mosque.; 8/23/10, 4:22 PM
Michael said...: Alpha: I did not write what you say I wrote. You are clearly as lazy as you are careless with the truth.
I don't call for them to be "prevented" from building whatever they want wherever it is legal for them to build it. But I think it would be counterproductive as well as rude for this "outreach" to be built on this spot. It is a personal opinion. It has nothing to do with all muslims or with all of islam. It has to do with this one particular spot. That is why I plead with you to look at some video of the human beings falling from the towers. Because actual human beings were killed and by watching them fall you might, possibly, get a sense of why there is an objection to a mosque on this spot. Not all mosques. Not everywhere. Just here.; 8/23/10, 4:25 PM
AllenS said...: The past words of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf are starting to come out, and he doesn't sound like a nice tolerant person.; 8/23/10, 4:25 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: so, not a word from the conservatives here on why all the anti-Muslim protesters in that video I posted at 3:42 screamed at, insulted and set upon that black man?

You are oddly, and tellingly, silent on that score. It's an anti-Muslim rally and they went after a guy for what? For being black.

Comment?; 8/23/10, 4:26 PM
A.W. said...: Btw, for all the people claiming that opposition to the mosque is bigotry, is this woman a bigot?

http://allergic2bull.blogspot.com/2010/08/latest-anti-muslim-bigot-to-come-out.html

And for the rest of you, hot pictures are involved.; 8/23/10, 4:27 PM
Scott M said...: This is how we speak in politics. I caveat my statements WAY more than around here. Yet you pick me to make an issue of it.

Bullshit. That's how small-minded inarticulates do it of which you've just uncovered yourself to be. Incapable of anything but hate yourself, you take the easy way out and just insult your opponents.

Disappointing, but not surprising. You've ceased being amusing. I doubt you will be worth reading again until after the evisceration your side is about to experience come November. Then it will be humorous to watch you fling yourself at the walls to no avail, but even that will tire after a couple of paragraphs.

Good luck.; 8/23/10, 4:27 PM
Michael said...: Alpha: Someone shouted at a black man? Holy shit. No shouting at black people. Period. Thanks for the link. Proves again you are always on the lookout for racism. Because you can't disagree with a black person. Or shout at them. Holy shit.; 8/23/10, 4:30 PM
Scott said...: @Michael: You see how the Sock Puppet just sort of ignored your point?

He doesn't answer anything that's not useful to his masters, or anything that's difficult or requires thought.

He's the Althouse Porn Bot.

Btw, Tariq Aziz is still alive. Comparing the Sock Puppet to Aziz is an insult to Aziz.; 8/23/10, 4:30 PM
Michael said...: Scott: He is quite stupid. I wouldn't hire him to write a stop sign.; 8/23/10, 4:32 PM
Scott said...: Unions have a hell of a hard time finding good help these days.; 8/23/10, 4:34 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Michael, this is really offensive:

"But I think it would be counterproductive as well as rude for this "outreach" to be built on this spot. It is a personal opinion. It has nothing to do with all muslims or with all of islam. It has to do with this one particular spot."

This "one spot" is a vacant Burlington Coat Factory store. No joke. They. are. not. building. on. Ground. Zero.

Would you also try to stop Catholics or any other religion from building a community center there? No. Just this one religion.

So, you are offended by Muslims building this. Muslims. You are objecting because they are Muslims. You are singling out Muslims and trying to claim you are not anti-Muslim. That is bigotry.

YOU are the one who needs to get in touch with some humanity and basic decency.

Then you go off on this patronizing, snide and arrogant and IRRELEVANT "watch the people die" bullshit. I know they died and how they died. I saw it in real time and will never forget.

That's why we need to stop the hate, not spread it as you and your ilk do.; 8/23/10, 4:34 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Michael, you racist fuck:

"Alpha: Someone shouted at a black man? Holy shit. No shouting at black people. Period. Thanks for the link. Proves again you are always on the lookout for racism. Because you can't disagree with a black person. Or shout at them. Holy shit."

It was a mob of anti-Muslim protestors swarming upon one black man and shouting hateful things, trying to provoke a fight, etc.

Because he was black.

Wait, wait, don't tell me. That's not racist.; 8/23/10, 4:37 PM
AllenS said...: ilk; 8/23/10, 4:37 PM
jr565 said...: Alpha Liberal wrote:
Michael, you are insulting the 9/11 fallen by using their deaths as a cheap political ploy for the November elections.

Islam did not attack us on 9/11. A small group of radical extremists who are also Islam attacked us.

And there are intelligence reports that militant Islamic "chattering" has increased dramatically in the past two weeks.

Hate begets hate, Michael.

Hate begets hate? You absolute swine. WHat hate are we exhibiting? We are simply saying move the mosque. And now we have to answer for RADICAL ISLAM chatter increasing because of OUR intolerance? Can they not simply hate us because they are radical Islam? For christ sakes, can you get your head out of your ass for five seconds?!
You just got through describing how we arent' differentiating between muslims. But now radical muslims are mad that we are lumping in non radical muslims with radical muslims? They are mad about our intolerance? wouldn't they be mad at moderate muslims for not being radical muslims? Why would our not building the mosque increase terrorist chatter, unless of course radical muslims want to use this mosque as a vehicle for their propaganda perhaps? Then, not building it would increase their anger and add to the chatter. Why are radical muslims so able to see the significance of the location of this mosque to them (so much so that you say it is increasing HATE and raising the terrorism levels) yet you cannot? Must you be so accomodating that you literally are suggesting that we should apologize for angering radical muslims who hate us?; 8/23/10, 4:39 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/23/10, 4:40 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: But that's not racist!!

The rallying call of the racists:

"The 29-year-old Kunkel has a swastika tattooed on top of his “skinhead.” He’s covered in “white power” slogans and imagery. The only ink-free spot on him is an empty space in the shape of another swastika over his heart. The crew first finds him spending time in the hole as disciplinary action for refusing to house with black inmates. When asked why he refuses, Kunkel says, “Because it’s wrong…nothing personal - it’s just the way it is.” In the next scene Kunkel is caught on camera beating an African-American inmate who is, of course, smaller than him.

Filmmakers for the series interview a close family friend of Kunkel’s, also locked up in Maricopa County. When asked about Kunkel by the producer, the self-proclaimed cousin offers, “He’s not a racist.”"

Link; 8/23/10, 4:40 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: jr565:

The hate you are exhibiting is to oppose the ability of Muslims to freely exercise their religion. You want to dictate exclusions zones where they are not to be allowed to

It's the baby steps of ethnic cleansing. Next thing, you'll be pointing out Muslim ghettos where you, oh so generously, allow them to live and worship.

This community center is not the only one opposed by your ilk. The anti-Muslim activists are protesting the construction of mosques all over the country.

And, yes, you are doing exactly what al Qaeda claims we do here in the West: discriminate and oppress Muslims. You are playing right in bin Laden's hands.

We could let them freely practice their religion and show the superiority of our system. Instead, conservatives demand that we live by the standards of Saudi-fucking-Arabia!! As if we should do no better!; 8/23/10, 4:45 PM
jr565 said...: Alpha, how about these tolerant liberals responding to people carrying Mccain signs and simply walking through NYC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQalRPQ8stI&feature=player_embedded; 8/23/10, 4:48 PM
Big Mike said...: Scott and Michael, why do you bother engaging Alpha in debate and discussion? Or, let me be more precise about this, Michael my friend, why do you let hime get your goat? In his bitter little world he's right, you're wrong, and -- much worse than that! -- you're wrong because you're a bigot.

In his world no one yells at a Black protestor because he's shouting stupid and inflamatory slogans. Nope. It's because of (wait for it!) racism. Yup. Dirty, bigoted, anti-Muslim, racists. 65% of the United States is populated by dirty, bigoted, anti-Muslim racists. No other explanation.

As for me, I think that Rima Fakih, a Muslim of Lebanese extraction has put the matter rightly. That's the current Miss USA, but she can't be the current Miss USA, according to Alpha, because she's Muslim and 65% of us are dirty, bigoted, anti-Muslim racists.

(As for me, I think she's gorgeous and I hope she wins. If not, I hope she shares her phone number with my son so that he can console her on her loss.)

Anyway, Alpha and Robert Cook have answered the question I posed in my comment at the start of this thread -- they don't wanna grow up.

Blame Bush.; 8/23/10, 4:54 PM
Scott said...: Aha! The smell is distinctly Stalinist. Progressive Labor Party.; 8/23/10, 4:56 PM
Scott said...: OMG, Sock Puppet is a PLP zombie!

:)); 8/23/10, 4:58 PM
jr565 said...: Ok Alpha I watched the video. And there is no attack on this guy because he is black. It's because he gets in the face of those against the mosque and calls them dumb mohterfuckers. They then scream in his face "NO mosque Here!" And someone says something about him being a coward or something. Why are you inserting race into this? I haven't heard any of them calling him racial epithets.
I heard one guy in the background say "Mohammad is a pig" and then a woman says "There is no call for that". So , I'm sure there are some people in the crowd who are ahoiles as in every crowd, it wasn't because he was black that the crowd turned on him.; 8/23/10, 5:00 PM
Scott said...: @jr565: PLP stooges make a fetish of "racism" in ways that normal human beings don't understand. You and Alpha will be talking past each other, so don't get too exorcised.; 8/23/10, 5:03 PM
Big Mike said...: @jr565, do you think Alpha cares? About reality, I mean.; 8/23/10, 5:04 PM
Scott said...: The International Committee Against Racism (InCAR) was a front group for the PLP back when I was in college.

No wonder AlphaLiberal got his knickers in a knot over "racism"! He's a fucking political relic, part of a weird-ass leftist political cult!

I wonder if he ever met Patty Hearst.; 8/23/10, 5:08 PM
AC245 said...: No one pays attention to any of the left-wing blog bullshit you link to, AlphaLiberal.

Besides, I'd be willing to bet that what you linked to was a dishonestly edited propaganda video. (Remember how much time and effort you, TPM, and the rest of the Sorosphere spent complaining about Breitbart because he posted a video excerpt? Welcome to your petard, have a nice hoist.); 8/23/10, 5:12 PM
Chef Mojo said...: @Alpha:

We are not at war with Islam...

And that's really part of the problem, because Islam sure is at war with us. Always has been, and always will be. There is nothing you can say to historically or religiously refute that, AL. Not one damn thing.; 8/23/10, 5:12 PM
jr565 said...: Alpha Liberal:We could let them freely practice their religion and show the superiority of our system. Instead, conservatives demand that we live by the standards of Saudi-fucking-Arabia!! As if we should do no better!

You dumb ass. If we lived by the standards of Saudi Arabia not only would there be no mosques, if any muslim dared to prostelytize his faith he might get his head cut off. We have mosques in New York and elsewhere. and muslims are allowed to pray there. Thre has been ZERO restriction on their ability to pray, this is simply an issue of building one particular mosque in one particular location.
But again,why are we apologizing when Muslims already have more rights than anywhere in the world, certainly more than they would have in Saudi Arabia? And if you replaced muslim with chirsitian or jewish they would have no rights at all. WHy aren't moderate Muslims demanding equal rights for Jews and Christians in Muslim lands? I find it hard to believe that someone could find no offense at that, but would find offfense at building a single mosque in a highly controversial location.
Again, WE have to answer for our sins, even though we are 1000% more tolerant than they ever would be on their best day, and they don't. Ever.; 8/23/10, 5:14 PM
AllenS said...: When did this start?

In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every muslim who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.

A little perspective.; 8/23/10, 5:19 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I want to thank AL actually.. and I want him to standby his conviction that everybody that's against the mosque so close to that cemetery is a racist.. I want him to keep saying that and shout it out in the roof tops whenever possible.

at least until November.; 8/23/10, 5:22 PM
AC245 said...: Hey Matt, why do you keep dodging every question (e.g. A.W. @ 8/23/10 1:38 PM) asking you to identify the specific conservatives / Republicans / commenters you keep maligning with your dishonest blanket accusations of spreading lies / hate / propaganda?

I think it's a combination of
A. You can't identify anyone in those categories actually saying anything hateful / untrue,
B. Your characterizations of these unspecified statements as "hateful" or "lies" are dishonestly inaccurate and you know people will realize this if you link to the actual statements, and
C. The most vocal critics you'd like to demonize happen to be the ones that have done the most investigation into this Imam, his organizations, his contacts, his travels, and his speeches, and you don't want to bring attention to such things.

But those are just my guesses.

I'd like to hear your reason(s) for repeatedly dodging the question, or even better, hear you answer the question.; 8/23/10, 5:24 PM
Methadras said...: Is it grand how the leftards are all of a sudden for freedom of religion and for property rights? You leftards are unbelievably evil cowards. The whole lot of you.; 8/23/10, 5:35 PM
Michael said...: AL is a typical leftie racist. Someone shouting at a black is racism to him. That is how little humanity he attributes to blacks. They can't be wrong, they can't defend themselves, they can't be shouted at. You can see why such racist thinking would twist a smallish mind.; 8/23/10, 5:38 PM
Scott said...: I'm pretty sure now that Alpha is a stooge for the Progressive Labor Party (PLP), a Stalinist-in-denial neo-Communist political cult. That would explain a lot of his rather unusual positions, his ugly rhetoric, and his dull writing style.

I can almost forgive him for spitting on the memory of those at the World Trade Center who were murdered by the Islamists on 9/11/2001.

You see, cultists of any type, whether religious or political, deserve compassion and pity.

AlphaLiberal can't help himself.; 8/23/10, 6:28 PM
jr565 said...: Alpha Liberal wrote:
The claim of hurt feelings is ridiculous unless someone believes that all Muslims bear collective guilt for the actions of al Qaeda. That, of course, is a dumb and prejudiced statement.

Your position is grounded in hatred of Muslims. Just admit it!

I will not admit it. THe fact you don't understand is that the WTC was destroyed by zealots for a religion. Now, not every muslim is of that persuasion, but certainly many/the majority are. So whether the moderates like it or not there is some legitimate distrust of Islam that they will simply will have to accept (if they were perhaps a bit more vocal aobut denouncing their evil brethren it might have helped quell some of the fears. yet even this imam who is so tolerant and progressive will not renounce Hamas and says that we are accessories to the attack on 9/11 because of our policies (he must be a liberal).
Frankly, while we can certainly have the conversation about whether Islam is peace or War, it shouldn't be done on the backdrop of buildings destroyed by Muslims. Why do these progressive muslims have to turn the WTC into a teachable moment where WE have to learn tolerance. Get your grubby hands out of the WTC and teach your sanctimonious lesssons elsewhere. I'm talking about both you goody goody there's a racist everywhere liberals as well as the so called moderate muslims. THere has been compromises offered by plenty of well intentioned people, who have no problem with building a mosque somewhere just not here. Yet, all we get from you is that anyone opposed is a racist.
Here's a reason to oppose the mosque by the way. Where's the funding coming from? How about, before we even consider building a mosque we determine that those building it are not our enemies, or that the mosque will not be a trainging ground for extremist muslims? The Blind Sheik who was involved with the first WTC attack was an imam in the metropolitan area, so don't say that it could never happen. And I'm not saying this current imamm is an extremist (though there are some troubling signs) , I'm saying before we reward this imam a space on the grounds of the WTC we do some DEEP digging into the funding on this. OR, simply move it to another location that is not related to 9/11.; 8/23/10, 6:32 PM
Fen said...: Time for you to make a new sock puppet, AlphaLibtard.; 8/23/10, 7:00 PM
Big Mike said...: I'd like to dedicate this song to Alpha and Robert Cook.; 8/23/10, 7:23 PM
GMay said...: AlphaLib contorts: "This "one spot" is a vacant Burlington Coat Factory store. No joke. They. are. not. building. on. Ground. Zero."

So planes were what took down the WTC towers right? That's what made it Ground Zero right?

Don't you think that if a piece of one of those very same planes partially destroyed another building, that that might be considered in the same area?

The rest of the straw you pummeled all over this thread was a big waste of reading time, but this one fact that seems to consistently elude you seemed to stick out for whatever reason.

I guess it gets into that "repeat a lie often enough" thing that you're so good at.; 8/23/10, 8:18 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Unbelievable! This has become such a farce!

The Saudi Prince who is the Number Two News Corp/FoxNews shareholder is also a contributor to the misnamed "Ground Zero Mosque."

Al-Waleed has directly funded Rauf's projects to the tune of more than $300,000. If Fox newscasters can darkly suggest "terror dollars" are sluicing into the Islamic center's coffers via "shady characters," then are Al-Waleed, and News Corp. leader Rupert Murdoch, by the same logic, also terror stooges?

Indeed, as none other than Rupert Murdoch's New York Post reported last May, the Kingdom Foundation, al-Waleed's personal charity, has donated a total of $305,000 to Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow, a leadership and networking project sponsored jointly by two of Rauf's organizations, the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative. Al-Waleed owns a 7 percent, $2.3 billion stake in News Corporation. Likewise, News Corporation owns a 9 percent, $70 million stake — purchased in February — in Rotana, Al-Waleed's Saudi media conglomerate. Put another way: Rupert Murdoch and Fox News are in business, to the tune of billions of dollars, with one of the "Terror Mosque Imam's" principal patrons.

Wow. Fricking wow.

There's a sucker born every minute.; 8/23/10, 10:27 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: GMay:

Don't you think that if a piece of one of those very same planes partially destroyed another building, that that might be considered in the same area?

Not at all! So are you seriously arguing that the Burlington Coat Factory is hallowed ground? Really?

Please show us the map for your Muslim Exclusion Zone so people know in advance. Apparently, anywhere debris landed is hallowed ground and Muslims will taint it.

How about if we don't desecrate Ground Zero with religious hate and intolerance? Is that so much to ask?; 8/23/10, 10:33 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: You know, that's a good idea! We should demand, now, that conservatives/anarchists map out their Muslim Exclusion Zone.

That way, when they keep trying to grow the Republican's Muslim Exclusion zone, we'll have a record and something to hold them to. As it stands now, Muslims must only be excluded where they say so.

You guys could crowd source this in Google maps, and then call it Muslim Exclusion Map Enabled (MEME). Then, property owners won't have to ask their local Republican Party if they can sell property to Muslims and the investment environment will be more stable in the face of the Muslim(phobe) threat.

And Ann Althouse can proudly point to the role her site played in the propagation of the MEME.; 8/23/10, 10:44 PM
AC245 said...: The Saudi Prince who is the Number Two News Corp/FoxNews shareholder is also a contributor to the misnamed "Ground Zero Mosque."

I recommend that everyone read the linked article to see that AlphaLiberal's claim is a lie.

Here's the New York Post article being referenced:
" Deep-pocketed benefactors who have supported the groups in the past include the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal's Kingdom Foundation, the government of Qatar and the World Economic Forum. But some of the foundations have already backed away from the mosque, which is to be called Cordoba House.

The driving forces behind the project, Feisal Abdul Rauf -- a usually media-savvy imam -- and his wife, Daisy Khan, have been tight-lipped on financing. They have said in brief statements that fund-raising has not started, donors have not been identified and that the Kingdom Foundation has no involvement."

If al-Waleed or his "Kingdom Foundation" charity are funding the the Cordoba Initiative's Ground Zero Mosque (defined as the mosque being built at a location where airplane wreckage from the 9/11 attack by extremist Muslims landed), then you'll need to cite something other than this weak Jon Stewart/John Cook collaboration to establish that fact.; 8/23/10, 10:52 PM
GMay said...: BetaLib hyperventilates: "Not at all! So are you seriously arguing that the Burlington Coat Factory is hallowed ground? Really?"

No, not really. Did I say it was hallowed ground? Are you fucking schizophrenic? Do you hear voices inside your head and post in response to them?

"Please show us the map for your Muslim Exclusion Zone so people know in advance. Apparently, anywhere debris landed is hallowed ground and Muslims will taint it."

You don't need a map. The criterion is pretty easy to grasp - if a building received major structural damage (kinda like the twin towers) from airplanes that were hitting buildings on 9/11, then construction of this thing on that spot is in poor taste and not really building bridges.

Did I say Muslim exclusion zone? Did I say "anywhere debris landed"? Nope, not one time you dumbass.

"How about if we don't desecrate Ground Zero with religious hate and intolerance? Is that so much to ask?"

How about you don't conjure up completely ridiculous strawman arguments from the depths of that loose bundle of nerves that sometimes passes for your brain.

*******

All snark and insults aside, let me ask you a serious question - If this same group acquired the rights to build the very same project atop the very site of the Twin Towers, what would you think?; 8/23/10, 10:54 PM
Anonymous said...: That's all folks!

Another day of Bigot-O-Mania!

Everything is bigotry
In its own way!

Tune in tomorrow for another episode of Bigot-O-Mania!

Starring the brain dead zombie OmegaLiberal and his stern commands!

You will do as I say, Ann Althouse! Or... or... or...

OmegaLiberal, the brain dead zombie, brings just to the BIGOTTY BIGOTTY BIGOTS tomorrow!

Right here!

Where it's Bigot-O-Mania all day long!; 8/23/10, 10:57 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: jr565:

"Ok Alpha I watched the video. And there is no attack on this guy because he is black. It's because he gets in the face of those against the mosque and calls them dumb mohterfuckers"

False. Completely false. What a lie.

The Ground Zero carpenter got in their face because they were screaming at him as he walked along. It clearly shows as the video starts that they are chanting, pointing fingers at him, and some with cameras are following him as he walks along.

Video.

There are verbal attacks on him as he is walking through the crowd. Then he turns around and faces them and the guy in the blue shirt is waving other people away who are trying to harass The Black Guy. (0:24)

At 0:44 Mr blue hardhat gets in his face.

And it's downhill from there.

You attack him here? Really? The one the anti-Muslim crowd is chanting at?

Blame the victim. You're like the wife beater who says "why do you make me hit you?"; 8/23/10, 10:58 PM
Chef Mojo said...: @Alpha:

So, what's your point? Does Murdoch's money (if this is indeed the case) is helping to finance 51Park, is that a good thing or a bad thing, Alpha?

As far the Burlington Coat Factory is concerned, yeah, that's hallowed ground. To paraphrase another blogger, if you somewhere where you breathed in the ashes of the slain, then you were on hallowed ground. I can live with that.

How about if we don't desecrate Ground Zero and the memory of the murdered with religious hate and intolerance by demanding - for once! - that the Muslims be sensitive to our grief and memories? Is that so much to ask?

There. FIFY.; 8/23/10, 11:07 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: GMay hurls this:

"No, not really. Did I say it was hallowed ground? Are you fucking schizophrenic?"

I am not fucking any schizophrenics, nor am I aware of having done so in the past. But neither would I be surprised...

So, Genius, the Muslims can't build their "Mosque" on hallowed ground, although the proposed building site, a Burlington Coat Factory store, you insist with great bile, is NOT hallowed ground.

And you DO have a Muslim Exclusion Zone, if you oppose them building here or at any of the other dozen or so sites around formerly free USA where Muslim plans have met the same opposition, inspired by this fight.

So, please give us a map of your Muslim Exclusion Zone.
-----------------
I don't think the Muslims or the Catholics, or the Citigroup or anyone should build there. It should be a park with a Memorial, like Pearl Harbor.

But they're going to build some commercial monstrosity, probably with some Saudi/Fox money and you'll be all gaga over that, right?; 8/23/10, 11:09 PM
AC245 said...: You already spammed the link that dishonestly edited propaganda video*, AlphaLiberal, and it got taken apart.

Spamming your discredited bullshit again doesn't magically negate the earlier debunkings.

(*Remember how much time and effort you, TPM, and the rest of the Sorosphere spent complaining about Breitbart because he posted a video excerpt from a longer event? Welcome to your petard, have a nice hoist.); 8/23/10, 11:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Alpha, you dumbing fucking piece of shit.

Shut up and go crawl back under your rock.

You are a loathesome, lowlife cocksucker.

You have all the characteristics of a terrorist. I hope that the police are keeping an eye on you.

Shut the fuck up, idiot.; 8/23/10, 11:13 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Chef Mojo draws a n entirely different Muslim Exclusion Zone:

"To paraphrase another blogger, if you somewhere where you breathed in the ashes of the slain, then you were on hallowed ground. I can live with that."

In this ghoulish example, the Muslim Exclusion Zone extends throughout Manhattan, at least lower Manhattan.

So Chef Mojo (excellent handle, BTW), what about the existing Muslim-owned community centers, mosques, etc. Would you like those taken from the Muslims?

The Chef asks:

"Does Murdoch's money (if this is indeed the case) is helping to finance 51Park, is that a good thing or a bad thing, Alpha?"

I think the incestuous melding of news empires in the hands of a few rich people is bad news.

Oh, and gang, Fox and Friends reported on half of this story, the Community Center investment today. They did not report on the Prince AlAweed's Fox connections, and they clipped Murdoch out of a photo with the guy!

Great send up on The Daily Show on this. Hilarious.; 8/23/10, 11:17 PM
Chef Mojo said...: But then, what's the use of arguing this with Alpha. After all, to him, the slain were just all little Eichmanns, not worthy of having the least sensitivity shown to their survivors by Muslims who think it is far more important to have their victory lap.

All this because Alpha and his ilk insist on niggling over the specifics of a map. They fixate on physical damage and totally disregard the damage to the national psyche.

Keep it classy, Alpha!; 8/23/10, 11:18 PM
AlphaLiberal said...: Chef Mojo:

"After all, to him, the slain were just all little Eichmanns,"

No they weren't, you dishonest and abusive fuck.

You guys are picking one religion to single out and trying to strip them of their rights.

You are claiming their very presence is an affront.

You define low class.; 8/23/10, 11:22 PM
Chef Mojo said...: No they weren't, you dishonest and abusive fuck.

Hit a nerve there, didn't I? They weren't? Then why won't you show the common decency of being sensitive to their survivors, you twisted monster? I don't give a flying fuck about the religious aspects of this. I'm a stone cold atheist.

You guys are picking one religion to single out and trying to strip them of their rights.

And that is a fucking lie, Alpha, and you know it. I have never, in all my comments throughout the blogosphere on this subject, said that they CAN'T build there. I only want the Muslim community, FOR ONE FUCKING TIME, to acknowledge that it is indecent to do this, in this way and in this time. Just for once, I wan't Muslims to be sensitive to this, to understand that, as with all Americans, just because you have a right doesn't mean you should exercise it.

The people who want to build this are no better than Fred Phelps and his psychotic followers.

You are claiming their very presence is an affront.

Another lie. I value the friendships I have with Muslims in my community, so go fuck yourself. And you know what? Everyone of them I know thinks it's a real bad idea. That includes Americans of the following decent: 2 Kuwaitis, 2 Pakistanis and 4 Sudanese. All practicing Muslims. Again, go fuck yourself.

Eye. Beholder. Better to have some class, be it low, than no class at all like yourself, Alpha.; 8/23/10, 11:38 PM
GMay said...: BetaLib tried real hard: "So, Genius, the Muslims can't build their "Mosque" on hallowed ground, although the proposed building site, a Burlington Coat Factory store, you insist with great bile, is NOT hallowed ground."

No, Idiot, I didn't say any ground was hallowed (that's twice I've pointed out your error, so shoot for a third lie). How anyone can have as shitty a reading comprehension as you and still manage to access the intarwebs just boggles the mind.

"And you DO have a Muslim Exclusion Zone..."

No, Fucktard, a Muslim exclusion zone would be "I don't want any muslims around Ground Zero." Which of course is not what I said but doesn't preclude the thought from rattling around inside your little pinhead.

"....if you oppose them building here or at any of the other dozen or so sites around formerly free USA where Muslim plans have met the same opposition, inspired by this fight."

Whoops, watch your step there or you'll slip on the red herring you just dropped.

"So, please give us a map of your Muslim Exclusion Zone."

Request already answered, moron.

"I don't think the Muslims or the Catholics, or the Citigroup or anyone should build there. It should be a park with a Memorial, like Pearl Harbor.

But they're going to build some commercial monstrosity, probably with some Saudi/Fox money and you'll be all gaga over that, right?

Yo, Buttercup, answer the fucking question without your paranoid ravings about big bad evil FOX NEWS! I phrased it in pretty simple English, which given a Herculean effort, you should be able to understand. Don't rephrase it, answer it.; 8/23/10, 11:39 PM
dick said...: Matt,

Replace conservatives in your text in place of Muslims and see if it still holds. Think back to how the left has claimed that all conservatives are religious fanatics who want to force us all to become fundamentalist Christians. Same principle and again it is about religion. And it is by Americans about other Americans - and incidentally by the highly educated from the Northeast primarily.; 8/24/10, 12:21 AM
Revenant said...: But where it gets a bit crazy is when you have people in Tennessee who freak out because a mosque is going up in the hood.

I don't acknowledge the relevance. I'm opposed to the Ground Zero mosque, not to mosques in Tennessee. I certainly don't feel a need to defend, explain, or apologize for the folks in Tennessee.; 8/24/10, 12:57 AM
Gary Rosen said...: "And, I am quoting Ron-Freaking-Paul on this very page!! not exactly my fellow traveller."

Bwahaha. It is exactly what one would expect that Stormfront Alphie, spewer of crackpot antisemitic conspiracy theories, would cite RP.; 8/24/10, 1:00 AM