I'm recording a Bloggingheads episode in an hour and a half. In the past, I've always kept these things secret and then sprung them on you when the finished diavlog was up over on the Bloggingheads site. But I'm going to take the liberty to do it differently this time.
They want an episode on Palin's book, and they've paired me — despite my "Sarah Palin is dumb" post — with someone who completely hates Sarah Palin, Michelle Goldberg.
Here I am talking with her last July, in a segment titled "Analyzing why Michelle HATES Palin":
Clearly, the anti-Palin side will be strongly represented in this diavlog. Shouldn't more of a pro-Palinist be found? I'm told that I am the closest they can come to a diavlogger on the Palin side. Fearing that this is not going to be an even match, I'm deviating from the norm and ripping the cloak of secrecy off Bloggingheads so I can invite you to supply me with questions, topics, and ideas. Help me out.
UPDATE: Here.
१९ नोव्हेंबर, २००९
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पोस्ट्स
१८७ टिप्पण्या:
Stick to cruel neutrality re Palin.
"Michelle, to what extent is your hatred of Palin motivated by the fact that she is more successful than you in both her personal and family life, and far more beautiful than you?"
Draw parallels between the Sarah-cult-of-personality and the Obama-cult-of-personality. Use that to illustrate the symbolic shorthand in our politics: gun-clinging flyover land versus arugula-eating, what-white-people-like land.
If that doesn't work, talk about attack poodles or breasts.
Michelle Malkin was busy.
What about one of the [hot] blogger chicks from Pajamas Media / TV? How about Dana Loesch?
bloggingheads appears to be pretty narrow in their playbook. (No offense.)
Ask her if she has read the book.
Talk about the self-made woman angle.
There's a great piece by Victor Davis Hanson at PajamasMedia (which you probably don't have time to read) which plays up her of-the-common-folk appeal. Here are a few paragraphs:
1. Why does she create hysteria?
i). Feminists are enraged that her can-do, have a Down’s Syndrome child in her 40s, shoot-moose persona will be used as a paradigm of a liberated women. She is quite attractive, fertile, and married to a Jack-Armstrong 19th-century man.
Her success as an independent female, who was an up-from-the-bootstraps small-town council member, mayor, state regulator and governor, is antithetical to doctrinaire feminism. The latter devolved into a political and grievance-based creed. It is often whiny, and increasingly dominated by single, childless shrill elites. Many try to equate their own unhappiness in matters of family and sex into some sort of cosmic complaint against male patriarchy—as a way of leveraging influence, access, money, and power or simply justifying now regrettable life choices made in their 20’s and 30’s.
Feminism is not about ensuring that Dorothy at K-Mart is not fired because she is female. It is more about an upper-middle-class Dedi Wilson-Reynolds getting to the top of the university food chain, law firm, or government bureaucracy, on the assumption that her gender deserves compensation, in the manner of being non-white or foreign-born or non-Christian.
In such a climate, here comes snazzy, breezy, winking Sarah—happy, good-looking, a mom, and in no need of a rich husband or well-connected dad (in the manner of her critics like a Andrea Mitchell, Sally Quinn, Nancy Pelosi, etc). She inherently exposes feminism as a liberal advocacy movement rather than a bipartisan effort to ensure equal opportunity for women in the workplace and society at large.
ii). Liberal elites are, well, deemed elites because they predicate their stature on things such as where they went to school, where they live, how much money they have access to, where their children attend university, and whom they know—all done in a sort of understated, coded fashion. The best snobbery is the least stated. When a Wasilla, you betcha, no abortion, Christian PTA mom comes on the scene with an Idaho BA, then red flags go up. Poor Sarah—had her mom only been a Colombian aristocrat, she might have at least pulled it off as Sarah Maria Dias-Palin, and compromised some of the furor. Poor Sarah, if she only could speak through nose. Poor Sarah, if she could only show up at her Wellesley reunion.
Moreover Palin does not have Audrey Hepburn/Jackie Kennedy boney looks, or even superficial John Edwards blow-dry smugness: she comes across as real, earthy, and warm, unaffected, the sort of wife most men prefer to a Maureen Dowd or Barbara Boxer shrewish whine.
iii). Right-wing populism also scares the left since grassroots movements are supposed to reflect democracy and the instant expression of popular will. And that is supposed to be good all the time. Yet average Joes listen to Rush Limbaugh in their cars, not Air America, and watch Bill O’Reilly, not MSNBC. Barack Obama was supposed to be a populist phenomenon, by virtue of being an African-American organizer, and we were to like him for his supposed ease with hoi polloi. But we surely cannot be consistent, and extend that notion of authenticity to a Christian, moose-hunter from the snow-bound, wacko far north who talks like the clerk at Wal-Mart—and draws crowds as large as Obama’s.
haven't read the book yet.
Where's Victoria?
You can discuss her success and popularity as Governor, and what that says about her ability to act as an executive. Especially considering some real achievements having to do with the energy sector.
Compare to Campaigner in Chief's previous accomplishments...
John said,
"'"Michelle, to what extent is your hatred of Palin motivated by the fact that she is more successful than you in both her personal and family life, and far more beautiful than you?'"
Is this a quote from someone else? You put quote marks around it.
In any case, wherever the quote originates, how does the speaker know any of these things to be true? How do you (or the original speaker) know how "successful" Ms. Goldberg is in her family life or career, especially as compared with Sarah Palin? How is Palin so successful? She's a two term small town mayor, a failed VP candidate, and a quitter from her first term as Governor.
How are you defining "success?"
And while I hate Palin for her ignorance and opportunism, I do think she's a total MILF, (rrrowrrr!)...yet Ms. Goldberg is far more fair, (not to mention, brainy).
I’d recommend you challenge Ms. Goldberg to explain why all the many millions of America’s decent, hard-working, God-fearing patriots don’t deserve a place at the table and – dammit – why they don’t deserve it right now!
Maybe emphasize the point by slamming your fist on a table or something.
How sad and typically BHTV. Someone who hates Palin and someone who is trying to be objective. Balance indeed.
How about Andrew Sullivan - he's always good for laugh. Or, the New York Times still writing about Clothes-gate or the sexist Newsweek photo?
Better to broaden the discussion as much as possible so Goldberg can't reiterate the same old tired Anti-Palin cliches.
Ann:
This could be a great opportunity to continue to explore why Sarah Palin effortlessly pushes the secular left's buttons.
Don't let Michelle off the hook with bogus comparisons and urban myths without any basis.
Ask Michelle is she has ever been at a Palin rally or spoken with any of her supporters? If not, how can she make assumptions about them?
Ask Michelle what Palin stands for and where he got that information.
Ask Michelle shat she opposes among Palin's positions and why she is not equally upset with any number of GOP, Indi or Dem politicians with similar views.
Ask Michelle what irks her about Sarah Palin and why.
Ask Michelle whether she would have aborted Trig when she found out he would be born with Downs Syndrome.
Ask Michelle what she thought of Palin giving a press conference while turkeys were being slaughtered in the background.
Ask Michelle what she thought about Palin hunting caribou.
In sum, try to smoke Michelle out concerning her cultural biases against someone like Palin. You might want to start by running the questions by yourself to see if you share some of these biases.
Good luck.
And while I hate Palin for her ignorance and opportunism, I do think she's a total MILF
I do love it so when the resident leftards let the mask completely fall to the floor and display what truly sexist pigs they really are.
Well done Cookie, well done indeed sir!
What a tool.
Ask her if she resents women whose looks "could launch 1,000 ships" (OK, maybe I'm just referring to the annual blessing of the Salmon fleet - but you get the idea.)
or women who would allow their image to appear in such pornographic magazines such as Runners World.
Hot Hot Hot. And yes, the beautiful Ms Angst agrees.
If Palin looked like Virginia Foxx, would we even be talking about her? Not a chance.
"I do love it so when the resident leftards let the mask completely fall to the floor and display what truly sexist pigs they really are."
I'm so ashamed...not!
I'm giving Ms. Palin credit for the only she's got going for her.
You could ask her what she admires about Palin, Phyllis Schlafly, Condoleeza Rice, and Sandra Day O'Connor. Assuming the answer is some waffling "Nothing," follow up with the obvious "Is it because they're conservative?"
Any variation on the hypocrisy theme will do.
The biggest deal pro Palin meme is her amazing appeal to motivate traditional American voters to show up for her on election day. She connects to her supporters. The biggest anti-Palin meme is her incompetance shown by her being a Beauty Queen/Hooters waitress type from nowhere land that may even be illiterate. That's the meme. The best counter to the anti Palin meme is that she HAS KNOWLEDGE on many subjects (Oil and Gas and Pipelines)and is a good learner. The opposition will freak out when you try to shoot their best argument dead in public. Every anti Palin attacker comes back to "she has no knowledge like a President mustn have knowledge". Stand your ground on that one. Ask why she can write a best seller book and do facebook posts that turn the political debate on a dime while Romney and Pawlinty and Huckabee are missing in action. Doesn't that show knowledge? And don't let them pretend that her "Death Panel" post about her son Trigg and the Health Care Bill to Nowhere shows her as a deluded fool...it shows her as the only clear speaker about a simple well known truth contained in that Bill's provisions.
I'm so ashamed...not!
Well hypocrites never are no surprise there.
The biggest deal pro Palin meme is her amazing appeal to motivate traditional American voters to show up for her on election day
Except last year?
For once I agree with FLS> Stick with the neutrality, cruel or otherwise.
But you might ask Ms. Goldberg if she thinks that Palin is a "Dominionist" or increases the chance that the right wing Christian Dominion movement will take over government. Ms. Goldberg thinks this is a real risk. (I live in the Bible Belt and have never encountered a single individual of the type described in Goldberg's book.)
To "urbanite" Goldberg there is an visceral revulsion (her word) to Palin and her ilk.
Does Goldberg fear her because deep down she actually thinks Palin might prove to be effective and even electable?
Does she think Palin is an example of the fascist like Dominating Christian strain that she sees taking over evangelical Christianity?
Does Michelle understand how ancient and deep the evangelical tendency is in America and how little this tendancy has created Christian domination of government, which is now decidedly secular and pluralistic?
Are the hot button cultural issues (abortion, school prayer, guns) what set her against Palin or is Palin representative of something fundamentally more dangerous than that?
Would she accept the premise that the left has its analog to the John Birchers (seeing conspiracy and disaster in just about everything) and is the hatred of Palin reflective of this?
Bottom line: the Althouse view on Palin may be more measured and accurate, but the Goldberg view is more provocative and revealing of other truths. You will have the best divalogue if you let her run with her demons.
ask her if she thinks Palin is stupid doesn't that necessarily mean that she thinks Palin supporters are stupid too? if so, what further evidence do you have of their stupidity to bolster your argument?
or why don't you ask yourself that question?
Go watch some of her debates when running for Governor - she's actually pretty sharp on issues she's familiar with.
If she's so dumb and unqualified, why care about her at all. Conservatives aren't threatened by the likes of Leahy and Kucinich.
That act like she's Ronald Reagan, afraid of her potential to inspire a large segment of the populace. You know the dumb ones.
And good luck.
By the way, whoever said Michelle is jealous because Palin is better looking has blinders on. Michelle is a very attractive woman, and very expressive and lively. She's just terrified of the right.
Just keep in mind people that the worst critics of females are other females. Whether it's fashion or portfolio they're ruthless. Politics is no different and probably worse since idiots like Goldberg think all women should follow the leftard playbook or be burned at the stake.
Metaphorically speaking.
Althouse:
Since the topic is Palin's book, it would be nice to compare and contrast the media's treatment of Palin's book with the treatment of other books, such as Obama's two books. Did the AP assign 11 reporters to fact check Obama's books? What about Clinton's (either Clinton) book(s)?
How does Palin's book compare with other memoirs written after a failed campaign or after a politician has left office? Is it true that Palin's book is unusual in its tone? In comparison, is it really fair to say Palin's treatment of the campaign is nothing but "score settling"?
How much space does Palin dedicate to topics other than the campaign? In context, is this really a "tell all" tale or is it more a life perspective?
Good luck!
You could ask Michelle about Palin's record as Wasilla mayor and Alaska governor:
- Eliminating many taxes and reducing others
- Paying down Alaska's deficit during the boom years
- Forcing ExxonMobil to drill on the leases they were holding.
- Getting oil companies to pay more to the state for the oil they produced (does Michelle even know that per the Alaska constitution natural resources belong to Alaska residents?) and then
- Returning some of that money to Alaska taxpayers as tax rebates
- Supporting investigations of corrupt politicians Dem or Repub
- Reducing the number of state employees and the state budget
- The gas pipeline
In short, demand substantive criticism instead of whining and character assassination.
Have Victoria (vbspurs) on Skype in the background as a third voice.
I just hope it doesn't end up with Goldberg ranting about Palin and Althouse breaking in once and while and saying "Well, she's not that bad".
You could ask Michelle about Palin's record as Wasilla mayor and Alaska governor:
- Eliminating many taxes and reducing others
Well shit, that right there is enough for a liberal to want Palin imprisoned for life. 'You mean she reduced the amount of money the government can take from the people who earn it? Christ I can practically hear the shrieking from here.
Ask her if the bruises from the one-sided beat-down she received at the hands of Megan McArdle a couple of months back have healed yet.
garage:
If Palin looked like Virginia Foxx, would we even be talking about her? Not a chance.
Who's "we"?
With her record conservatives would support her, even if she had Foxx's looks.
That's one of the differences between us and you.
Ask her to name another politician whose taken a stronger, more effective stand against corruption?
Have Victoria (vbspurs) on Skype in the background as a third voice.
@Paddy O: I think Victoria might be busy sharpening her knives for whatever is served up on both sides.
wv: "mindleas" (brain on loan)
Ask her if she recalls, to the nearest 11, how many fact checkers the AP used on Obama's books.
How long before this episode airs anyway?
I am becoming more impressed with her ability to learn, gather information and make decisions. Obama is stuck in a rut of organizing and talking, while Palin is learning and leading. I am looking for a president/leader who can exercise judgment and discern useful, relevant information. She seems to have insight. Best of all, compare the foolishness. Obama is caught up in his own cult of personality. She is not.
While Robert Cook is generally just a leftist, this is disgusting:
"I'm giving Ms. Palin credit for the only she's got going for her.
Repeat. That is disgusting.
And absolutely indicative of the brain cell dead left. Your ignorance is appalling.
Are you a racist too?
SteveR:
If she's so dumb and unqualified, why care about her at all.
QFT!!
PaddyO:
Have Victoria (vbspurs) on Skype in the background as a third voice.
If Althouse did this I'd actually sit through it.
If Victoria isn't interested how about Dust Bunny Queen?
Robert Cook said...
And while I hate Palin for her ignorance and opportunism...
As opposed to The Zero, f'rinstance?
Actually, all politicians are opportunists and almost all are mind-numbingly ignorant of the issues on which they legislate (ideology is more important in most cases).
So, what's your problem with Miss Sarah, again?
Best of all, compare the foolishness. Obama is caught up in his own cult of personality. She is not.
Without evidence to back up these assertions, these sentences are no more persuasive than "Obama is controlled by space aliens. Palin is not."
"With her record conservatives would support her, even if she had Foxx's looks."
If she'd had Foxx's looks, the McCain ticket would never have picked her, and no one would know who she is. And, there's a difference between "support" and "adore." The adoration for her has to do with how she looks, deny it though you may.
"That's one of the differences between us and you."
Keep dreaming. Everyone finds attractive people more appealing than unattractive people.
No offense, Althouse, but I wish Bloggingheads could have paired Michelle Goldberg with Glenn Beck. It would be a mugging-for-the-camera extravaganza the likes of which have not been seen since Stone Phillips was on TV.
The pensive eye squinting, the sincere staring into the camera, the pouting... it would be unsurpassed. (Unless they could somehow get John Edwards)
I'm giving Ms. Palin credit for the only she's got going for her.
Do you really, honestly think that’s the only thing she’s got going for her? Just for starters, she’s a best selling author, not to mention having been governor of a state. Is there some reason you need to dismiss every accomplishment just because of your political views? Objectively, she's got a lot more going for her than looks.
edutcher: Who said I like Obama? He's a putz.
Turn the tables and make the Diavlog all about Joe Biden.
It's probably too late, but I guess what I'd want to know is whether Goldberg hates Palin as a person, or does she really hate her passionate followers? Regardless of Palin's many limitations, the "derangement syndrome" she has inspired is much more interesting that B- or O-DS. People hated Bush for his policies and persona. People hate Obama for his policies, period. His persona is a point in his favor even among his foes. But people hate Palin primarily for her fans. Explore that.
Who's "we"?.
Ah, you? You're talking about her. Conservatives talk about Palin every day. No?
Shanna,
In my remark I was being snarky as much as I was stating my frank opinion, but Ms. Palin's political success, such as it is, has to do with her looks. She quit her governorship in her first term; that sort of gives me the feeling she couldn't handle the job.
Next word up?
Frivolous!
Okay, I have a topic.
Goldberg is, according to wikipedia, a "liberal Brooklyn-based journalist". You are a midwestern law professor who maintains an East coast identity. Both of you are urban oriented and, as far as I know, non-religious in both thought and practice (even as I think you are welcoming and open to honest religious dialogue).
I'd love a little navel-gazing here. How do your biases, cultural perspectives, priorities, etc. weigh on your response to Palin as a "western" woman. She is basically living in the last frontier of United States, and thus reflecting on almost entirely different kind of American woman.
We talk, in pc circles especially, of the importance of dialogue, listening to the 'other', educating oneself to the perspective that a different culture brings. You are all white women, but of entirely different backgrounds, cultures, and history.
Is there inherent bias in responding to Palin that reflects on your own self-identity, and thus compels you to judge Palin in a certain light so as to maintain the validity of your own life decisions?
To put it the question more crassly, aren't you both, essentially, the cultural equivalents of a KKK member assessing Martin Luther King?
To put it more simply, I'd love to hear you two chat about the biases you bring to this topic, and reflect on how this should be addressed.
For us, as listeners, this is asking if you know yourselves as evaluators and asking why we should not dismiss your opinions as non-reflective of the general American society.
people hate Palin primarily for her fans. Explore that.
This sounds good. Who are the Palin fans? What do they have in common, and why are they attracted to Palin? Who would they support without Palin; how many have never gotten into politics before Palin, etc.?
I watched the July Bloggingheads again just now. Goldberg was not in control and she was freaking out over Sarah Palin even being on the same earth with her. Is that why one criticism of Palin is that Palin is Polarising? Is it because Palin's presence makes bi-polar Personalities show out their bad sides?
In my remark I was being snarky as much as I was stating my frank opinion, but Ms. Palin's political success, such as it is, has to do with her looks.
Her look (and I said "look" not Looks because it's about image not necessarily attractiveness-she may have gotten just as far with a grandma type look - witness teh former gov of Texas) plays a role, as it does in male politicians, but when is the last time a supermodel was elected governor of a state? You have to have more than looks to succeed in politics. Whatever the reason she resigned, she was elected and served quite well, and I think it's pretty much a given that the resignation was related to the campaign and it's aftermath (I don't think anyone believes she would have resigned had she never been selected for VP).
Your "snarky" opinion is not a rational one. It's veering toward sexist, but I'm still going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that since I think it's more a reflection of your political views.
FLS:
Palin offers the pioneer qualities that many Americans value. These include hard work, self-reliance, common sense, plain speaking, respect for the individual and families, and very little need to butt into other's lives and business.
Has she read the book? (I mean Palin's book, not The DNC Playbook.)
Seriously. As Angst said right off, that would be the question. (Her knowledge of the content of it will reveal whether she lied. Heh.)
Given that you're hustling to get this together, and given that we all hate to read books by people we hate, unless she got hold of a pre-release copy, how is she doing this?
And in the end, offer to send her a sympathy card. Or give her a 6" trophy for Effort.
I think you need to do a couple of things.
First, as Paddy-O says above, turn Goldberg's neurosis back on her. Ask her about how her cultural backround of being Jewish, east coast, single and the author of books on Christian nationalism colors her view of a Christian white woman from the West.
Second, don't let her off with breezy generalizations. I find that with Palin's worst critics asking the simple question "what has she specifically said or done that causes you to say that about her?" completely defeats them. None of them have ever listened to her or have any idea what she actually beleives. So they can never answer that question. They are left saying just becuase.
Third, don't let them move the goal posts. Palin never ran for President. She ran for VP. And she is not running for office right now. So don't let them go on about how "she is not qualified to be President". So what? We will worry about that when and if she ever runs. Make the reasonable point that she is a good politician who connects with a bunch of people and will have a lot of influence over the GOP in the coming years. Stick to that simple point, and they will just look like the irrational haters they are.
Goldberg is a paranoid. She has made her whole career convincing herself that Christian nationalists, whoever they are, are going to take over the country. Good luck in arguing with someone that dellusional.
Can serious politicians only come from Ivy League schools or have superior academic credentials?
But people hate Palin primarily for her fans. Explore that.
No John, people hate Palin because she's a female and a conservative; in other words, she's a heretic. That's why the left hated Rice. She's a female, a conservative and and African-American. Hell she's the trifecta of heretics.
Forget the Palin is dumb meme because that just doesn't play. Biden is monumentally more ignorant yet he gets a pass from every single person who screams "Palin is dumb!" Obama has said things that would disqualify him from entering Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader but hey, he sounds smart and that's what really matters.
I just enjoy watching the left froth at the mouth over her while Obama is fiddling in DC or in whatever country to whose leader he's bowing to today.
fls -- who are Palin's"fans" on Althouse?
Explore.
Compare.
Contrast.
I am sure Goldberg is quite proud of herself having gone to Berkley. But, all she has ever done is go to journalism school and pontificate. She has never actaully done anyting except infect the world with her ideas.
I guess the first question I would ask Goldberg is why anyone would care what her opinion of anything is?
Thanks everyone.
Recording to start momentarily.
Stay here and I may be able to ask a question or 2.
You might be able to help me while the conversation is in progress.
Goldberg from July: "I find her kind of amazing as a Rorshach test and clearly she hits a nerve for me and ... it's not just that she's beautiful ... I guess I'm slightly irritated by the fact that she both kind of claims motherhood as a qualification for higher office ... and at the same time whines and talks about why one of the reasons she's leaving office is because people make cracks about her children which -- while inexcusable -- strike me as much much milder than, say, the kind of things people said about Chelsea Clinton."
Ask Michelle what planet she is living on?
Ask her about the definition of "slightly," as in "slightly irritated."
Ask her to defend the meaning of "kind of claims," as in "kind of claims motherhood as a qualification for higher office."
This last question is my real question. The visceral reaction to Palin (left and right) depends a lot on "kind of" qualifying. Palin simply doesn't have a track record as an extremist (or visionary) of any kind, yet people lose their minds about her.
From the left and disenchanted right, all the negative claims about the awfulness of Sarah Palin depend on "kind of" reasoning. She "kind of" is an extreme evangelical. She "kind of" uses her family to run for office. She "kind of" lies about her record.
Why do these ideas get credence from Palin's enemies when the reality is that a) her main pursuit as an elected official in Alaska was good-government reform and b) her image handling is completely commonplace for a politician?
Follow up by asking Goldberg if she knows what projection means. Okay, that would be rude. Obviously Ms. Rorshach-Test knows that projection means. Ask her what she's projecting right now.
"From the left and disenchanted right, all the negative claims about the awfulness of Sarah Palin depend on "kind of" reasoning. She "kind of" is an extreme evangelical. She "kind of" uses her family to run for office. She "kind of" lies about her record."
Exactly. No one ever gives any specific examples of why she is this or that. Yet, they are convinced she is.
She "kind of" is an extreme evangelical.>
I posted a youtube of Palin getting an exorcism from a witch doctor, i would say that's extreme. Agreed?
"I posted a youtube of Palin getting an exorcism from a witch doctor, i would say that's extreme. Agreed?"
Really? Where is the link? Youtube is blocked by my firewall, but I someehow doubt that it is quite what you claim it is. But lets take a look.
OMG I just googled that. She got a blessing from some nut preacher who apparently beleives in witchs. Hardly an "exoricism". About like shaking hands. And hardly equivilent of listening to Jeremiah Wright talk about hating whitey for 20 years.
Obama went to a black supremicist church for 20 years. Is a racist black supremacist? He certainly is if being seen with one preacher makes Palin an evangelical.
How would the USA be different today if Sarah Palin were President rather than Obama? (Presuming that McCain died early in office).
I believe there are instances where she has admitted mistakes or errors or errors in judgment. That is a rare ability. Contrast that with the politicians who can't change direction because it would confirm prior mistakes or politicians who spend so much effort in revisionism and scrubbing their web sites. "I was for it before I was against it."
I recommend making clear at the beginning of the episode your ambivalence or mixed feelings about Palin.
"How would the USA be different today if Sarah Palin were President rather than Obama? (Presuming that McCain died early in office)."
A lot of gridlock and histrionics with Congress. There would have been a stimulus, but it would have looked totally different and been smaller. There would have been no more TARP. GM would have gone to bankruptcy court. No danger of Obamacare being passed. No cap and theft. No KSM being tried in New York.
She would have spoken out in favor of the Iranian protestors, although I am not sure what good it would have done. No Hondurus debacle.
Other than that, things would be about the same.
OMG I just googled that. She got a blessing from some nut preacher who apparently beleives in witchs. Hardly an "exoricism". ....Obama went to a black supremicist church for 20 years. Is a racist black supremacist?
Hold on garage, I got your back on this one.
clears throat
LA LA LA LA LA....I can't hear you! LA LA LA LA....Palin's an idiot! LA LA LA LA LA....
Ask her why the conservative fan boys spend all their time defending Sarah Palin when they should be worshiping Ann Althouse?
How do you distinguish criticism of Palin's lack of intellectual depth from sexism directed at her in the guise of substantive criticism (both of which are very real in my opinion)? And how is that approach the same or different from how you distinguish substantive criticism of Obama from racist elements?
If you're looking for some possible Palin points pro and con, 538.com has had some pretty thoughtful-but-brief posts in the past few days about why Palin is or is not likely to run for or win the GOP nomination in 2012.
I'm SHOCKED John found no trouble in receiving [whatever the hell she was receiving] from the witch doctor. Anointing? And where was the witch doctor Mathee from? Kenya! "We come against the spirit of witchcraft! We come against the python spirits!" "We stomp on the heads of the enemy!"
I'm sure you would be defending Obama after he received protection from a Kenyan witch doctor against witchcraft.
And by the way, does Palin think there are witches after her?
Ask her why she sank the Titanic?
"I'm sure you would be defending Obama after he received protection from a Kenyan witch doctor against witchcraft."
If he met a Kenyon witch doctor and was polite and accepted protection, I would find it amusing. And I wouldn't hold it against Obama.
But I do hold the fact that he went to a racist church for 20 years against him. You apparently just pretend it didn't happenn since you follow Hoosier's advice and just don't respond.
Shanna said,
"I think it's pretty much a given that the resignation was related to the campaign and it's aftermath (I don't think anyone believes she would have resigned had she never been selected for VP)."
But what does that say of Ms. Palin's staying power or committment to her constitutents?
I don't have anything against Sarah Palin as a person; she does seem to be a nice, decent woman--although, in public life, appearances can be deceiving--and she has that "something" that makes her fascinating to people. Her looks are definitely a part of that, but probably not all of it.
There are other celebrities, such as Britney Spears or Madonna, who seem innately fascinating to the public to a degree far in excess of what their "talents" might inspire. I think it's because they seem like us yet unlike us; we are intrigued by what we don't know about what goes on inside their minds or in their private lives. Sarah Palin has this same quality.
I think what is annoying about her has less to do with her personally than with the phenomenon she represents--the rapturous admiration, even adoration for her, absent any special talents or expertise that might warrant such feeling, and her pandering to the emotional needs of her base. This is why rabid Obama-haters so despise him; he, a bland, middle of the road establishment politician who is no threat to the status quo--to his discredit--is adored by his base out of all proportion to his meager accomplishments and is conversely hated, equally out of all proportion to any "danger" he poses to business as usual in America, and is decried as both a "fascist" and a "socialist," a "far left communist," a "tyrant," a "danger" to our country, etc., etc. While some who hate him might really see in him these fanciful dangers, I think for many more it's a knee-jerk revulsion at the adoration shown him by his base.
And that's understandable, to a point; Obama really hasn't earned any of the hosannas that have rained down upon him, and who of us likes to see someone bask in glory that we consider undeserved?
It's also unnerving to see such emotionalism directed at political figures, as it reveals how little it takes for many to choose one candidate over another, often having little or nothing to do with the issues or the candidates' stated policy preferences and so on. We flock to candidates to represent us in office as we flock to pop stars and movie actors, to the degree we like the image they represent to us, and that's scary.
If he met a Kenyon witch doctor and was polite and accepted protection, I would find it amusing. And I wouldn't hold it against Obama.
Uh huh. Riiiight. Again, why do would someone need protection from witches? Unless you believe in witches that is.
Ask her why she sank the Titanic?
LOL.
Ask her why she sent Custer to Little Big Horn.
"Uh huh. Riiiight. Again, why do would someone need protection from witches? Unless you believe in witches that is."
Because not everyone is an impolite jackass like you. Some people have social skills. And they nod and are polite to people in those circumstances even if they think the person is a bit nuts. They are called social skills. Unless and until Palin, launches a national campaign to end wichcraft, I am going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say she was being polite.
Again though, why should I give the same benefit to Obama who wasn't just polite, but used a racist minister as his spiritual mentor for 20 years?
I'm SHOCKED John found no trouble in receiving [whatever the hell she was receiving] from the witch doctor. Anointing? And where was the witch doctor Mathee from? Kenya! "We come against the spirit of witchcraft! We come against the python spirits!" "We stomp on the heads of the enemy!"
Point of information, was this guy a “witch doctor” or does he just believe that demons are real and “witchcraft” is real? Because there is a difference, you know.
Oh, and thanks for getting the stupid witch doctor song in my head again.
Typical Bob Wright assignment: two women to discuss third woman. You should stand down and suggest John Zeigler take your role in this diavlog.
No, no it was Goldberg that sank the Titanic.
Ask Cedarford.
John said...
"Michelle, to what extent is your hatred of Palin motivated by the fact that she is...far more beautiful than you?"
Dude, Michelle Goldberg is really sexy and cute! IMHO
I think Palin's beautiful, too. And that's one of the reasons I liked her for a day or two when she was first anounced as McCain's running mate. For my vote, you need quite a bit more more than looks. For your vote, apparently not.
But what does that say of Ms. Palin's staying power or committment to her constitutents?
I don’t know what it says about her, honestly. I thought it was a bad move if she wanted to move up the political ladder, but probably a good move (if reports are right) if she wanted to save money and wasted energy on bogus complaints and then sell a book for a whole bunch of money. I don’t know what her goals are. Should she try to run for president, I will judge her more harshly for having resigned, however that is a far cry from saying she doesn’t have anything going for herself but looks.
"Dude, Michelle Goldberg is really sexy and cute! IMHO"
She is cute. I wouldn't call her really sexy. But she isn't bad. That is until she opened her mouth and starting ranting about how the Christian nationalists are going to take over the country. Then she wouldn't be so cute anymore.
garage mahal said:
"The biggest deal pro Palin meme is her amazing appeal to motivate traditional American voters to show up for her on election day"
Except last year?
----------------
I've lost count of on how many parallels Sarah Palin has with Obama. Here's another one:
There's no way to accurately measure the number of votes her being on the Repub ticket last year could be attributed to her. So you could simply say she "saved or created" votes for the campaign!
Maybe we could check the voting from nonexistent congressional districts to know for sure!
garage:
Did you check out one of the Downfall parodies?
I'm sure that's Palin weeping in the Bunker. You'd better text Andrew Sullivan. Once this gets out, Palin will have to retire from politics altogether.
Sarah Palin: in the Bunker with Hitler when Adolf got banned from World of Warcraft!
Someone tell Sully!
@Robert Cook -- Very well said. The negative Palin post that Althouse ran not long ago was astonishing. The outrage of Palin's defenders was bizarre, especially when some of those extolling her are usually incisive critics of Obama's messiah status.
McCain was out of step with the zeitgeist. Everyone's a populist now -- either a redistribution populist like Obama, or a values populist like Palin.
In my mind, given the thing that Congress is, a values populist is less dangerous to the republic than a rubber stamp.
Adele Mundy said...
Ask her why the conservative fan boys spend all their time defending Sarah Palin when they should be worshiping Ann Althouse?
The two are not mutually exclusive. Many of us disagreed with her only because she was going on such meager evidence (would Ann have flunked herself if that was a class exercise?).
Her conservative fan base still worships the Diva of Diavlogs.
John said...
"Uh huh. Riiiight. Again, why do would someone need protection from witches? Unless you believe in witches that is."
It's called Don't Make Any More People Mad at You than Absolutely Possible. Witness Cal Coolidge in the war bonnet.
PS garage, the word, in this case, is spelled Kenyan, as in The Zero's ancestry.
What a shame Bloggingheads couldn't get Andrew Sullivan vs. Althouse. There's so much potential in Bloggingheads, but they never pull off the pairings that would be the talk of the blogosphere.
Good point edutcher!
How about this: Have Ann ask Michelle why do they have the same hair style in that clip.
Followup, why do they want to look like Moe Howard.
It's fun to be a bitch.
edutcher
I spelled Kenyan correctly.
Once again, anything cited that might paint Palin in a negative light can all be explained! Witch doctors? No problem!
Goldberg is a paranoid. She has made her whole career convincing herself that Christian nationalists, whoever they are, are going to take over the country. Good luck in arguing with someone that dellusional.
A little extremely put, but gets at the point.
The point being that it appears Goldberg is almost exactly the same as those on the Right who go on and on about Muslim extremism. She is xenophobic. Only it is directed towards cultures within her own country. This doesn't mean there aren't examples that she could use to justify her positions.
Rather, that her positions have become the lens through which she places people. She has made categories in her mind, and thus must fit everyone into a certain category. So, if someone exhibits the characteristics of one of her categories she assesses them according to the whole of that category. Profiling.
The problem is that this is a terrible way to assess people, especially if one's range of experiences and analysis is overly narrow. Someone can exhibit a quality--say religious conservatism--but have an entirely different set of priorities, underlying causes, and emphases.
Categorizing people this way is essentially what PC language was meant to overcome. The problem is that categories based solely on race/religion don't have the capacity of nuance to deal with cultural/regional distinctions that are probably significantly more important than skin tone/religious affiliation.
Garage...You seem to be stuck on stupid about seeing a blessing and earnest prayers accompanied by a laying on of hands imparted to palin by a Kenyan Christian pastor and the local pastor team in an Assembly of God Church. That is a common Christian practice in the Pentacostal Denominations. You don't need to be afraid of Christian believers acting like there is a God.It's actually very traditional.
OH SHOOT! I didn't see this post on time, as I've been busy.
Is it over, Ann???
Dammit, I had some good ideas to pose to a rabid anti-Palinist.
Brian:
Maybe we could check the voting from nonexistent congressional districts to know for sure!
Except that conservatives don't vote in nonexistent districts -- Democrats do that.
Those nonexistent people in nonexistent districts all voted for Obama.
He stole the election!
Just watched that clip.
Feeling versus Thinking.
It was fun to watch in a let-me-see-how-the-Feeling-people-operate way. I will watch the new diavlog when it's up.
Garage, African Pentecostal preachers do have a very strong awareness of witchcraft. That's because there is a very strong understanding of witchcraft in many African societies, one which is pretty well accepted across religious lines.
That you're using this here is more of a cultural snobbery towards Africa than a slight on Palin.
An interesting historical note, in the poem often called "St. Patrick's Breastplate" we read a prayer against witchcraft:
I summon today all these powers between me and those evils,
Against every cruel merciless power that may oppose my body and soul,
Against incantations of false prophets,
Against black laws of pagandom
Against false laws of heretics,
Against craft of idolatry,
Against spells of witches and smiths and wizards,
Against every knowledge that corrupts man's body and soul.
In effect, this is a prayer against the power of evil. It's not really by St. Patrick, but it is an early Irish prayer that reflects Irish spirituality well into this last century. Now, you may not share this worldview, but belief in spiritual evil that fights against spiritual good is pretty accepted around the world, not least in Africa. In other words, it's mainstream--even if the particular language and phrasing may change in different cultures.
You really shouldn't be xenophobic or racist in your comments, even if you do think those Africans are a backwards, ignorant people.
fls - "Obama is controlled by space aliens. Palin is not."
Watching "V" by any chance?
Please do not confuse garage with facts.
Only President Obama can consult witch doctors. Or tell you which doctor you can consult.
well, this will be interesting
Chickenlittle wrote:
@Paddy O: I think Victoria might be busy sharpening her knives for whatever is served up on both sides.
Alas, tomorrow is a family birthday and I'm terribly busy with the surprise celebration.
Really, I could kick myself for not checking in earlier, as it seems I'm one of the few Althouse commenters to actually have read the autobio so far (I'm still on Pg 71!).
I have to go, but I'll be checking in for the diavlog.
You know, I KNOW Ann will do a good job of defending Palin against UNWARRANTED rabidness by Michelle Goldberg.
Althouse is at her best when she senses imbalance towards conservative talking points, as I think it's her most salient trait: to be oppositional.
So here's rooting for a deconstruction of the hate Goldberg spews. That would be more than enough for me.
Cheers,
Victoria
Fearing that this is not going to be an even match
Wiiiiimp!
You are a candyass.
wv = lameo
No John, people hate Palin because she's a female and a conservative; in other words, she's a heretic.
I disagree. There are loads of conservative female pols out there. Palin gets a disproportionate amount of grief compared to any of them except maybe Michelle Bachman. And Bachman actually says outrageous things. Palin, for the most part, does not.
I'm sticking to my position that what really bugs people about Palin is her following. There's nothing like it in politics.
Okay, Obama has (had?) a lot of enthusiastic supporters, but in his case, I think the enthusiasm was more about each other. In other words, when Obama says "it's not about me," he's righter than he knows. It was about a generation of liberals discovering or rediscovering political activism and getting excited that there were so many others who were just like them. They projected their hopes and dreams onto Obama, and Obama obligingly allowed them to do it.
But Obama never really connected with his fans the way Palin has connected with her fans. There is some undefinable quality she has that makes a large number of people love her despite her flaws. Her resignation as governor, a profoundly disturbing act if it had been taken by any other politician, has not seemingly had an effect on Palin's fan base. And, as I said, I think this is the most unsettling thing about Palin to the ideological left. It's "what's the matter with Kansas" in the flesh.
You really shouldn't be xenophobic or racist in your comments, even if you do think those Africans are a backwards, ignorant people.
Just keeping it real PaddyO. Anyways I was talking about an anointing in Wasilla AK, from a political figure that had aspirations to the number two spot in our government. Sorry, this guy is not mainstream, and if you googled him, you would find some seriously weird shit about him. In a village he connected a local woman (mama Jane) and a string of accidents by her house to her possession of evil spirits. The village became suspicious and demanded her to be stoned. Public outcry eventually led the police to raid her home, where they fired gunshots, killing a pet python they believed to be a demon.
I know it's too late for a suggestion now, but you should have started out by thanking Michelle Goldberg for loving America.
vbspurs -- Althouse will check the comments while she is diavlogging.
Post something.
That you're using this here is more of a cultural snobbery towards Africa than a slight on Palin.
This is complete bullshit, and shows a great deal of condescension and stereotyping by yourself. African's don't all practice witchcraft nor do even a majority. Plus, I don't know if you know but Africa is a pretty big place and has a lot of different cultures, people and countries. You know absolutely nothing of what you are talking about. This would be like admonishing someone for cultural snobbery of America based on Scientology. You should put down the Wikipedia and delve into something you have some actual knowledge.
Garage -- you need to get out some more. Your cultural diversity button is a little rusty.
Besides, SP didn't have 20 years to vet the pastor. Or even the time it took Team Obama to vet Van Jones and Anita Dunn.
Give her a break.
Sorry. I couldn't write while diavlogging.
It's a very hot diavlog. Michelle almost hangs up on me when I challenge her assertion that Obama's memoir is much better than Palin's. She compares O's book to "War and Peace."
She compares O's book to "War and Peace."
In the original Russian?
I'm SHOCKED John found no trouble in receiving [whatever the hell she was receiving] from the witch doctor. .
Well garage, you guys certainly had no problem with Obama receiving 20 years of Goddamn Amerikka blessings from his spiritual advisor.
Then again why should you have a problem with it, most liberals agree with the Reverend Wright anyway so no surprise there either.
Her resignation as governor, a profoundly disturbing act if it had been taken by any other politician, has not seemingly had an effect on Palin's fan base.
What exactly does she say in her book about this? Did she announce her resignation before after the book was drafted?
Anybody?
wv "geogi" "Hey there, geogi girl..."
She sounds like a real winner.
Palin has accomplished some amazing things politically and personally at a very young age. Simply ask her if she respects those things as accomplishments? If she does then what is the problem or is that the problem?
"Michelle almost hangs up on me when I challenge her assertion that Obama's memoir is much better than Palin's. She compares O's book to "War and Peace."
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
Where do they get these generic crazy liberal girls? One is much like another.
Where's the diveristy?
The closest they can come to a conservative is Ann Althouse?
Talk about stacking the deck.
"It's a very hot diavlog. Michelle almost hangs up on me when I challenge her assertion that Obama's memoir is much better than Palin's. She compares O's book to 'War and Peace.'"
I take back what I said before about Ms. Goldberg being "brainy."
"It's a very hot diavlog. Michelle almost hangs up on me when I challenge her assertion that Obama's memoir is much better than Palin's. She compares O's book to "War and Peace."
REally? Wow. Good call on saying Palin's memoir is better than baby Jesus' one. I bet that drove her over the edge.
She compares O's book to "War and Peace."
Holy Rorschach!
wv "gumsmor" A campfire treat made from Lindsey Graham crackers, melted Obama kisses, and gummint marshmallows?
"I take back what I said before about Ms. Goldberg being "brainy."
When Goldberg's lost Robert Cook.
""It's a very hot diavlog. Michelle almost hangs up on me when I challenge her assertion that Obama's memoir is much better than Palin's. She compares O's book to "War and Peace."
This is better than Jeremy's "On Duct Tape.."
I'm sticking to my position that what really bugs people about Palin is her following. There's nothing like it in politics.
But the craziness started at the very beginning, before she had such a following. In fact, I would argue that the following is a result of the crazy statements about her. I am not a die-hard Palin fan, but I am probably far more attached to, and protective of, her then I would be if I hadn’t had to listen to months of shrieking nonsense about her, including comments about how Palin, or perhaps all women, should stay home and tend their children instead of running for office, and weird conspiracy theories about the birth of her own baby, and just general, personal not political, attacks.
That the insanity was instantaneous seems to indicate that it is not about her following. People liked her speech, but that was it.
@John Stodder -- Agree to a point. I do think the Obama love is a little more disturbing than just liberals high-fiving themselves.
And, as I said, I think this is the most unsettling thing about Palin to the ideological left. It's "what's the matter with Kansas" in the flesh.
Perfect analysis. Coastal liberals have invested a lot of intellectual energy into the idea that the heartland is too stupid to be (just) evil. Palin is the reification of every bias that goes into that thesis. It's no longer "what's the matter with Kansas" -- now it's "what's the matter with Dorothy."
I do have to defend Goldberg.
Obama's books have something in common with War and Peace.
They are all long and boring.
They are all entirely fictional.
Soon they will all be required reading in high school english classes.
So she is not that far off.
On a recent Commentary Symposium, "Why Are Jews Liberals?", Michael Medved wrote: Jews, like all Americans, vote not so much in favor of politicians they admire as they vote against causes and factions they loathe and fear. Jews fear the GOP as the “Christian party,” and as the sole basis of Jewish identity involves rejection of Christianity, Jews will continue to reject Republicans and conservatism.
Given her writing, Goldberg appears to be some sort of strident caricature of this phenomenon. Coupling this with the irrational hatred so-called "liberal feminists" have for Palin, evidently due to her success despite her decidedly un-liberal lifestyle, and you have a recipe for serious lunacy.
Ask Goldberg if her Palin Derangement Syndrome stems from that combination or from the phases of the moon.
She'd better do a little research before drawing any comparison to Tolstoy.
Sorry, this guy is not mainstream, and if you googled him, you would find some seriously weird shit about him.
But in garage's world, Reverend Wright is perfectly acceptable. Mainstream, right on, groovy baby tellin it like it is. Heck the fact Obama picked him as his spiritual advisor is bonus points.
/back to seriousness/
This is why I'm pretty close to moving on from even participating in these discussions because there is no adults to even debate. garage is a perfect example who at one time could occassionally muster a coherent argument but now its all deflection or simply avoiding the question. 'Look Palin got a blessing from a kook!' Ask him about Rev. Wright and you get 'Squirrel!' as a response.
No point in discussing it further cause his mind is made up and even if Allah and Mohammed came down to set him straight he'd still stamp his feet and yell Squirrel.
From the clip we have seen it looks like she is just finishing up Judy Blume.
Tolstoy seems out of her reach.
"Obama's books have something in common with War and Peace.
They are all long and boring.
They are all entirely fictional.
Soon they will all be required reading in high school english classes."
That is not fair. War and Peace is not boring. It is long but it is amazingly readable and entertaining. And while its character's are fictional, it is set in real events and it is one of the best accounts of the Battle of Borodino we have. And, sadly, no one reads it in high school anymore.
Soon they will all be required reading in high school english classes.
I was required to read Doystoyevsky not Tolstoy and having read them both? I think that was the better choice.
"I was required to read Doystoyevsky not Tolstoy and having read them both? I think that was the better choice."
I really loved War and Peace. I like Doystoyevsky to. But I am not sure I don't like Tolstoy better these days. And Doystoyevsky changed my life.
Invisible Man, I didn't open wikipedia at all for that.
I go to a seminary which has an extremely global influence and trains pastors from all over the world. I have sat in classrooms with African pastors. I am far from an expert, but I know a good bit about African Pentecostalism, which is a major, massive movement that certainly has particular expressions.
Of course, not all Africans are like this. But, if we are talking about Pentecostal movements then I do know what I am talking about. And there certainly are African forms which express traditional spiritual beliefs.
It's also the case that when a visiting pastor attends a church there is usually a great deal of talking about what is culturally connecting--without a lot of background research. We all celebrate those who seem like they are movers and shakers in our chosen fields, even if they are far from perfect, or shown to be even worse.
Again... Obama went to a church that is also far out of the mainstream, saw Wright not only as a visiting pastor but as a mentor who shaped him. I think Palin's situation is significantly less important as a reflection of her beliefs.
Liberation theology is no more weird than Pentecostal theology, both have some outlandish aspects that may not be quite in tune with our perception of the world. Both, however, are culturally shaped based on other people's experiences.
Garage ...Check out RLC's Blog. He is in Rawanda today across Lake Victoria from Kenya and Uganda. Kenya never had the disasters of a murderous tyranny and a genocide that its two neighbors had to endure. Maybe there is something to Kenyan Christian Pastor's earnest prayers to God after all.Education in Africa has always been by missionary schools under local government supervision. Education is ALL they seek to get any status in life. Thank God for the Christian missionary started and supported local Pastors and churches and their schools, including the good Pastor Muthee that scares you enough for you to slander his works in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as Witchcraft by a Witch Doctor.
Oh good grief.
No one said all Africans practice or believe in witchcraft. However ... varieties of meanings being considered, one is far more likely to run into the witch concept being practiced in the flesh in one form or another Africa than in Nashua or Omaha. It is part of the culture / world view of much of Africa.
Africa is NOT Johannesburg.
If you recall the Professor had a blogpost about some "witches" being killed a couple months back. In Africa. In that case by Muslims, although there are some incidents where Christians get into the act too.
And yes, I think Garage is speaking on this as a poorly informed bigot. (What's the lib view on Aztec human sacrifice?)
And say what about Jeremiah Wright, again?
Well, I was waiting for Ann's diavlog, but I must dash for now. Hope to chat about it later. Chop licking time!
You can tell you are dealing with pretentious elitists when they resort to praising boring and irrelevant Russian authors.
You are not in freshman English anymore girls. So you read a book. Nobody is impressed.
That is one of the reasons they hate Palin. She does not care all that much about Tolstoy or Dostoevsky.
She would rather shoot a moose for the table.
But in garage's world, Reverend Wright is perfectly acceptable. Mainstream, right on, groovy baby tellin it like it is. Heck the fact Obama picked him as his spiritual advisor is bonus points.
You just simply cannot argue without strawman. Ever. Or "this cant be so because this is so!".
And yes, I think Garage is speaking on this as a poorly informed bigot.
If you call me biased against witch doctors I'll take that as huge compliment.
This would be like admonishing someone for cultural snobbery of America based on Scientology. You should put down the Wikipedia and delve into something you have some actual knowledge
Garage's point is much more akin to admonishing someone for liking the movie Magnolia, even though Tom Cruise, a wacky scientologist, stars in it.
And, by the way, viewing Scientology as an expression of mid-20th century American post-Christian religious expression would be quite an interesting project. Very illuminating. Even if there are a very small number of actual scientologists around. It does reflect, in its general rather than specific forms, an interesting insight about our culture.
But, it's not very mainstream. So, not all that helpful.
However, if I heard of an Austrian leader being dismissed because she once was at church led by an American Pentecostal--I would assume there's more than a little bit of condescension involved that dismisses American forms of religiosity.
If you call me biased against witch doctors I'll take that as huge compliment.
Hey! You're in perfect agreement with Palin's visiting speaker. :-)
"You can tell you are dealing with pretentious elitists when they resort to praising boring and irrelevant Russian authors."
Tolstoy is not boring. Have you ever actually read War and Peace? I never had until a couple of years ago. I decided to read it just for kicks. I was almost embarased to do it because it is such a cliche. But, I have to admit it was a great book. I read all 1200+ pages in about a month. And I enjoyed every page.
I love Russian novels. Solzhenitsyn, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Babel, they are great. What is pretentious is to claim you like them without having read them. Or to just read them and not admit to any other tastes in books. Or worse still to not read them in favor or more "modern and high brow things".
All hail the middle brow!!
I haven't read Obama's books, but my understanding is that - unlike Palin - he wrote his himself (I could be wrong).
*cue commenters claiming Bill Ayers was his ghostwriter*
And Invisible -- you don't have to *practice* ("nor do a majority [of Africans practice witchcraft]) to "believe" that it surrounds you -- as many Africans do.
Loafing --
You most certainly could be.
I started to read it but I feel asleep and if fell on my foot and broke my toe.
Profiles in Courage anyone?
Who's the author (warning - trick question)?
Please post the damn divalog already!
Don't let this thread devolve into a debate on African witchcraft practices held together with duct tape!
That was War and Peace.
I have not read Obama's books.
I thought I would wait until I was in the reeducations camp.
Theodore Soresen.
He wrote Profiles.
He also was picked to head the CIA but that didn't work out so well.
Adele Mundy said, "I have not read Obama's books.
I thought I would wait until I was in the reeducations camp."
LOL!!
Shanna, I've had a similar reaction. Regarding Sarah Palin, I've discovered that I do not like the people who do not like Sarah Palin.
Note the nuance here. I'm not saying, "If you don't like Sarah! you must be evil." I'm saying that the people who do not like Sarah Palin have, at various times, shown themselves to be vicious, unfair, overwrought, condescending, illogical, shrill, and arrogant when attacking or discussing her. Especially disheartening are those who otherwise seem polite and reasonable, yet when they start talking about Sarah Palin, their brain catches on fire or something.
Newsweek asked "what's the problem with Sarah?" The problem is that her existence demonstrates the fact that whole loads of us Americans don't like each other very much. Usually we keep to ourselves and can hide it, but when it comes out as it has with Palin, it gets real ugly real fast. That might have made a good diavlog question: is it really about Sarah, or is she just a proxy for us to fight each other?
She does not care all that much about Tolstoy or Dostoevsky.
Or maybe she loves them to pieces, how would any of us know? I don't particularly care, but I don't have a list of all the books she's read listed. If she is a reader (which I think she has been described as being) then she's probably read tons of books.
Tolstoy is not boring.
I liked him, I just prefered Doystoyevsky. That said, I read Anna Karenina not War and Peace, which is still sitting on my shelf. I got 100 pages in one time and got busy and never finished. I'll pick it up again sometime when I'm in the mood. I'll have to try Babel sometime.
Of course I know what she reads and what she likes and dislikes.
I am projecting all of my attitudes on her.
Don't you know how to play this game?
@chicken Don't let this thread devolve into a debate on African witchcraft practices held together with duct tape!
And why not? We might make 200 WITHOUT he who cannot be named.
"Newsweek asked "what's the problem with Sarah?" The problem is that her existence demonstrates the fact that whole loads of us Americans don't like each other very much. Usually we keep to ourselves and can hide it, but when it comes out as it has with Palin, it gets real ugly real fast. That might have made a good diavlog question: is it really about Sarah, or is she just a proxy for us to fight each other?"
That is an astute point. Middle and working class white people have been villified and condescended to by a certain strip of coastal elite and they are getting awfully tired of it. Now it is just harmles invective. But, I fear it will get more serious if people don't knock it off.
Like I said, I'm not an expert.
But he is.
Oh! I just started War and Peace for the first time this week. What a coincidence. I really got into Dostoevsky about seven years ago or so, after having successfully navigated 16 years of education without he or Tolstoy being ruined by any Literature curriculum.
I think you can love a book more when you read it at your own timing.
"I think you can love a book more when you read it at your own timing."
Very true.
I think you can love a book more when you read it at your own timing.
Absolutely, although in school it helps if you are a fast reader. It also helped that Crime and Punishment wasn’t 1000 pages long, since that’s the kind of thing that you really do need to read on your own time.
all those recovery.gov jobs remind me of Dead Souls
re PiC -- Just sayin' -- another big and famous person has gotten the Pulitzer for a book he did not write.
Again, why do would someone need protection from witches? Unless you believe in witches that is.
Indeed. After all, why would Obama attend Rev. Wright's church for 20 yrs? Unless he believes in Wright's extremist opinions and agenda that is.
FWIW I don't happen to believe that Obama does. I think he attended that church for political reasons. I'm just pointing out the weakness of your argument.
"this can't be so because this is so".
Ask Michelle if she had only two resumes Obama's and Palin's to whom she would give a governace/excecutive job and why?
All I can say is, I think Floydster will be pleased.
Wow, that Michelle woman is wholly incoherent. I'm glad she's got a handle on the word "id", because she's got nothing else.
I've quit talking about Palin with women my age. The hate is insane, and virtually none of it is seated in rational thought.
Wait, Ann, it just occured to me....
How do you keep your papers organized in that office?
Are those, like, papers you need to grade on the back shelf? Submissions? The Great American Novel you are writing to Get the Hell out of Madison?
Evidence you are sending to Sullivan of Sarah's wanton dumbness?
Gimme Shelter, Ann. Inquiring Minds, etc....
wv=werime, as in, "Ann's werime out lookin at that office of hers."
"I'm SHOCKED John found no trouble in receiving [whatever the hell she was receiving] from the witch doctor. Anointing? And where was the witch doctor Mathee from? Kenya! "We come against the spirit of witchcraft! We come against the python spirits!" "We stomp on the heads of the enemy!""
I always find this horror at the appalling and primitive African culture outright laughable.
Particularly as it comes so directly and unashamedly from people who self-identify as tolerant and internationally sophisticated.
It turns out that crazy culturally narrow evangelical red staters understand and are actually *exposed* to greater diversity and challenges to their comfortable understanding of modern life than those who feel entitled to lecture over it.
But this sort of cultural exchange and exposure is common for people in those bible believing churches as they host missionaries and ministers on their tours of the US to raise money for their mission or projects back home.
Being intimidated or frightened by Christians from (mostly) third world nations and cultures where the supernatural is taken completely for granted shows a true narrowness of experience.
But then again, it would be nearly impossible, after creating this huge scary image of American true believers, to have any room left to even take in the notion that American true believers are insipid and weak compared to those in less developed or undeveloped places... all of those quaint and *authentic* places that liberals so appreciate and promote as the best way to live in harmony with nature and themselves.
I'm not shocked that John did not find it disturbing that Palin did not leap away in horror at the notion of receiving a blessing from a Kenyan... no matter how appalled garage may be.
Also, from what I've understood, when Palin got involved in politics she made the habit of attending other Christian churches than her own. This is a good practice for the purpose of gaining support from a greater number of people, the same as joining professional organizations or other groups... but it is also a very good practice in order to separate secular government from religious association or the appearance of favor.
slarrow:
Newsweek asked "what's the problem with Sarah?" The problem is that her existence demonstrates the fact that whole loads of us Americans don't like each other very much. Usually we keep to ourselves and can hide it, but when it comes out as it has with Palin, it gets real ugly real fast. That might have made a good diavlog question: is it really about Sarah, or is she just a proxy for us to fight each other?
This one's the thread winner right here, you betcha!
Too bad you didn't post it early enough for Althouse to use it.
Why does Goldberg put herself in a position where all virtuly all honest viewers, all conservative viewers, and all objective viewers will conclude she is stupid?
She is clueless. I loved the section where she was explaining how the crowds at Palin's events were hurling racial epithets and doing John Byrch type stuff. She obviously had no real knowledge of such conduct, and could not provide any intelligent explanation of what she ws talking about, but in her little brain, it was true.
Here's a question to ask yourselves:
"Is Sarah Palin the Moses, or the Howard Dean, of the Republican Party?"
"Is Sarah Palin the Moses, or the Howard Dean, of the Republican Party?"
She's Captain Kirk.
;-)
"She's Captain Kirk."
Or Maximus Decimus Meridius
She's Adele Mundy.
Heh.
It turns out that crazy culturally narrow evangelical red staters understand and are actually *exposed* to greater diversity and challenges to their comfortable understanding of modern life than those who feel entitled to lecture over it.
But this sort of cultural exchange and exposure is common for people in those bible believing churches as they host missionaries and ministers on their tours of the US to raise money for their mission or projects back home.
Hmm...interesting thought.
I think it's weird that all these people who hate her keep saying "I hope she does run".
Adele Mundy
Can I assume that you read David Drake? Sure looks that way from your name and profile. (Her name is suggestive, but her choice of pastries in combination with that makes it almost certain).
Let me add that I have read most of what Drake has written, including his newe RCN series, and do enjoy him. A bit lighter reading than either Tolstoy or Dostoevsky, but arguably much better for my frequent airline trips.
Thanks Bruce.
I thought only Synova would pick up on that.
But you can't pick a better person for a girl to pretend to be.
I pretty much didn't. ;-)
Shanna:
I think it's weird that all these people who hate her keep saying "I hope she does run".
I do too.
Since we all agree, what's all the fuss about? Can't we all just get along?
Jealousy is an ugly thing and Michelle certainly is jealous of Sarah Palin.
Well, that was a romp.
While I'm predisposed to like Althouse anyway (what a delight her classes must be), it was quite a treat to see Michele be flabbergasted that a mere woman would push back at her statements.
I doubt if Michele will be back for another round with Althouse. Michele seems to be someone who only will speak where she is not confronted. While that is a great attribute for a family, it's a bad thing for a liberal who wants to present her viewpoints in a world that doesn't simply let her opine just because she's a woman.
In fact, here are two strong women who are not awed by Michele: Althouse and Palin, both who are strong, feisty, funny, sardonic, and self-aware women who are quite happy to think independently of the pack.
Has Michele ever had an independent thought that met with disapproval of the liberals?
I first looked at the entry title and thought it read "divablogging." I think that's about all I need to know about this entry, thanks.
vw=upsprota: What your prota-type uses to power down gently when the lights go out.
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