Carrie Prejean, some might remember, is the California beauty queen who gained instant ignominy in some circles by agreeing with President Obama's ridiculous notion that marriage is a union between one man and one woman....The story is well-told at the link. Go there. I'll just highlight this:
[T]he high-powered, celebrity website TMZ claimed to have a sex video of the beautiful Prejean that was so outrageously explicit it hasn't posted it yet. But people can feel free to keep clicking back there every few minutes to check.It's all about the page views...
Prejean replied -- insert teasing pause here -- yes, there was a tape she had done as a teenager. She made it for a distant boyfriend whom she loved at the time. She said TMZ can call it a "sex tape" if it wants. But she was alone on the video and no one else was in the room.Teenager? Is TMZ threatening to post child pornography? In any case, what is it? Embarrassing topless nonsense?
Prejean said it was the "biggest mistake" she'd ever made in her not-yet-lengthy life. She regretted it. She felt mortified talking about it, but it was her own fault. And that as a Christian she'd never claimed to be perfect.You know, what is even imperfect here? I don't see anything unChristian about displaying your breasts to a boyfriend that you love. It's just foolish to allow photographs to come into being. But it's not unChristian to be foolish. (Saint Paul said: "We are fools for Christ.")
Now, trying to destroy the young woman over political disagreement and tormenting her by threatening to invade the intimate space between her and her lost young love... I'll hazard to guess: That's not Christian.
But TMZ — I don't read it much, but, again, I'll guess — does not itself parade as Christian. Prejean does, and so she will be held to the high standards of Christianity, while TMZ can say and do whatever it wants. ("When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. ")
TMZ is following Rule 4 of Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals":
Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian Church can live up to Christianity.That's true. It's difficult as hell to live up to the standards of Christianity. But if the issue is living up to Christianity, let's talk about what Christianity really is. I'll start: It's not about teenage girls showing their breasts to their boyfriends.
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348 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»The politics of personal destruction meets the thought police.
Not the worlds greatest Christian or anything, but I don't see what this mistake has to do with anything but being human and making a judgment error.
As usual with a scandal (in my family or on the news) it says more about the gossipers than the gossipe.
I think, though, we can all thank god it wasn't a Al $harpton sex tape in (wait for it) widescreen. Bada-boom.
-XC
WV: dishio - getting the scoop on a hippo
Frankly, if it was shot before her boob job, there's probably not much to see.
The upside of things like this, at least if you have a daughter, is that it drives home the ill-advised nature of making this sort of video far better than any lecture from a parent could.
Great comments on this, Althouse.
Christ vs. Saul Alinsky.
This reminds me of a dumb Mormon joke.
The good Mormon girl has been fooling around with her boyfriend and gotten pregnant. After the initial dismay, her father announces that the two will have to get married.
"But I can't!" says the girl. "He smokes!"
"... trying to destroy the young woman over political disagreement and tormenting her by threatening to invade the intimate space between her and her lost young love... I'll hazard to guess: That's not Christian."
I don't think you have the story full correct, Ann.
Wasn't it lawyers the ones who threatened to release the tape? And not because of any political disagreement.
No, they told Prejean if she availed herself of her constitutional right to a fair civil trial, they'd release the private tape out into the wild themselves in order to undermine her credibility.
She of course, immediately gave up her legal rights. So the extortion effort was wildly successful and sure to be emulated by every fucking scumbag ambulance chaser in the country.
It was lawyers committing extortion here to embarass a civil litigant.
Legal extortion.
"Now, trying to destroy the young woman over political disagreement and tormenting her by threatening to invade the intimate space between her and her lost young love... I'll hazard to guess: That's not Christian."
Why would Harvey Levin want to act Christian?
"Not the worlds greatest Christian or anything ..."
Did she ever claim to be? Is it not the Christian faith that we are all sinners? That the world's greatest Christian was Jesus and that we can never measure up to him no matter how hard we try?
She was destroyed by sodomites - much like Jesus himself.
Nothing newsworthy here since they control Hollywood, the media and make up the majority of the political class.
What's one more American denied their rights due to the Chicago Way threats of these people?
It's all about the page views...
trying to destroy the young woman over political disagreement
Two mutually exclusive motives here: either TMZ, as a capitalist enterprise, is motivated by profit; or TMZ, as a political outlet, is motivated by disagreement.
But if the issue is living up to Christianity, let's talk about what Christianity really is. I'll start: It's not about teenage girls showing their breasts to their boyfriends.
This would be an odd salon in which to discuss what Christianity "really" is. Commenters here stretch the definition to fit their personal beliefs. Having my own nodding acquaintance with the New Testament, I'll get dizzy after reading some Calvinist spin.
"Embarrassing topless nonsense? "
Yet powerfully compelling. I can't explain or justify why, nor can I deny my eyes. I'm helpless. I'm worthless and weak.
"I'll start: It's not about teenage girls showing their breasts to their boyfriends."
Have you ever shown your breasts to your boyfriend, Ann?
Any sex tapes in your closet?
Have you ever purchased or watched porn? If so, you're the real problem since you're the consumer.
Before you start defining what it means for us to be good Christians why don't you first tell us all those secrets you're hiding behind.
"Two mutually exclusive motives here: either TMZ, as a capitalist enterprise, is motivated by profit; or TMZ, as a political outlet, is motivated by disagreement."
Not at all. Very common today, almost universal. Michael Moore being the "largest" example.
I remember that interview of Carrie Prejean, when she said what she said about gay marriages and since then I'm following her "carrier".
I just wonder on her example, does it mean that now you cannot say what you think? If you are some kind of celibrity, you must be saint, saientologist, you must have silicon breast/lips, support gay marriages, slim, don't eat junk food, drink alcohol and etc.
What about being normal human? Isn't it normal anymore?
I'm not sure if the question is "What is Christianity" or "How should Christians live".
If it's "What is Christianity," then the answer is pretty much theological.
If it's "How should Christians live," then it's going to be a list of behaviors.
I don't see how what Prejean did is somehow evidence that Christianity in general or her faith specifically is wrong or flawed.
She did something stupid. Lots of teenagers do that, and that's why we don't give them the keys to the car.
TMZ has pounced upon this delicious evidence of hypocrisy as a way to destroy Prejean. Well, that's too bad. A lot of us have done things for which we are grateful there was no video made. In her case, there was.
But the best thing to do here is to say, "Yes, I did those things. They seem awful to me now, and I hope I learned from my mistakes. But you go ahead and chortle. You can concentrate on the past; I'm going to concentrate on the future, because that's the only thing I can change."
This is nothing new. Slandering the church and its members is Satan's M.O. He loves to throw our sins in our face.....as if Christ hasn't already forgiven the penitent heart. TMZ just happens to be one of Satan's useful idiots in this case.
Last night I heard Harvey lamenting on how evil Lindsay Lohan's dad was for selling private audio tape of their conversations... But TMZ has no problem leveraging child porn against an already-down-on-the-ground beauty queen. I guess it takes a hypocrite to know a hypocrite. If there was a new Jewish temple.... Harvey would be first in line to be worshiped there:)
"Where do you get that it was just flashing her breasts, and not heavy-duty masturbating for the camera? Whatever it is, she pulled out of the lawsuit because of it, and TMX is teasing that she's having sex with herself."
I had the same impression, more than just nudity. Which simply means that if it's published, it's explicit child porn.
What happened to staying out of other people's bedrooms? Only if they're on your side?
"That's true. It's difficult as hell to live up to the standards of Christianity."
It's really not, though. All Christianity demands is real effort to improve.
Christianity predicts, accepts and is predicated on the fact that you will fail to be perfect. That you will sin. It does not ask you to be perfect. It asks you to seek redemption.
What's difficult as hell to do is to live up to the standards that would be set up for Christians by the butt-buggering sodomites. The rapists of 13-year-old children.
Christians could never live up to the sodomites' expectations.
Thankfully, though, Jesus doesn't require that. And we know they'll spend eternity burning in hell.
So at least there's that comfort.
Actually I am curious what Carrie's boobs looked like pre surgery. I am sorry, but I enjoy looking at boobs. Any excuse works. TMZ knows that.
Meanwhile, when professor's attack! This is not a black white thing, or a male female thing, it just shows that architecture professors cannot hold their liquor like theater professors can. Everyone knows that! Time for another White House beer summit It appears these folks like to drink.
The rules of modern Euro-America are exceedingly clear.
It's better to behave as if one has no personal morals at all, for you are held to nothing. Everything is permitted.
For those trying to live by moral precepts, only Christians need worry about being exposed as sinners or hypocrites. No other faith practice is similarly maligned.
The media can crush you like a bug, if it so desires. Best to comform.
"When I was a teenager" does not mean "when I was a minor."
Florida wrote: No, they told Prejean if she availed herself of her constitutional right to a fair civil trial, they'd release the private tape out into the wild themselves in order to undermine her credibility.
As I recall, Prejean signed a form indicating that there were no nude photos and no porn tapes of her when she signed up for the pageant. The lawyers for the pageant weren't trying to undermine her credibility or shame her so much as they were trying to establish that she had entered into a contract with the pageant under false pretenses, or something like that.
This is a story of religious prejudice and prof reduces it to a question about "Christian" girls showing off their breasts?
What's next here? Tokens of virginity? Ah, those sexless Christians and especially those confused Mormons.
At the same time, this girl was targeted for a religious belief. Compare and contrast Fort Hood. I'll hand out grades and see if you make Law Review.
I didn't read that Althouse was criticizing Prejean for not behaving like a Christian. She's criticizing the blackmailers. Saying it was foolish to make the tape, sure, but human.
Where did I go wrong getting that?
You know, this is still way better than a Perez Hilton sex tape...
She covered that too, Mark O. The Alinsky part? The "enemy" being Christians?
"That's true. It's difficult as hell to live up to the standards of Christianity."
It's really not, though. All Christianity demands is real effort to improve.
I'm an unbeliever now, but I was raised Catholic and even I, at a young age, got this message. I'm always amused at those who seek to wound by finger-wagging proclamations of "You. A Christian!"
"Teenager? Is TMZ threatening to post child pornography?"
Technically someone is still a teenager when they're 18 or 19. At which point the tape would not be child porn.
What bugs me about this (well, one of the things) is that when a non-Christian woman has a sex tape - which usually involves actually having sex - it is a career booster.
I hate double standards.
"Prejean signed a form indicating that there were no nude photos and no porn tapes of her when she signed up for the pageant."
Prejean was not aware that the tape still existed. She made it as a young teenager. She was told by her boyfriend at the time that it had been destroyed. She had no idea he had sold it to TMZ for use in their extortion scheme.
When she signed up for the pageant, she was telling the truth as far as she knew. Once threatened with the tape by the lawyers for the pageant, they extorted her to get her to drop her legal suit.
But whatever ... any port in the storm for the sodomites to excuse their extortionist behavior.
Don't let mere facts stop you in your pursuit of burning this witch.
The sex tape stuff came up when Carrie tried to sue the pagent for $1,000,000
After viewing the tape with her mom, she dropped her demand.
Carrie was poorly treated by that pig of a boy-man Perez Hilton. And the Ms. America pagent is a joke for having that troll being a judge. But this is ultimately not a Christian thing, or a gay thing, it is a money thing.
"Have you ever purchased or watched porn? If so, you're the real problem since you're the consumer."
As readers of this blog should know, the only porn I've ever watched was in the chambers of a federal court judge, pursuant to a legal proceeding brought by the U.S. government to seize videotapes from the would-be consumer.
Care to revise your remarks?
The ugly and obvious efforts of the left to destroy Prejean and Palin and really all right wing women sort of dovetail interestingly into that story the other day about the Dems accusing the Republicans of hating women.
This seems like a sort of left wing extortion not just of women but of any group they think they 'own.' Stay on the left wing plantation or we'll come after you. Do what we tell you or you'll regret it. You don't want to end up like Palin and Prejean do you? DO YOU? Yeah I thought not, honey.
Chuck said...
As I understand it, the tape shows her masturbating to orgasm. That's why there's an issue about posting it.
11/10/09 9:41 AM
Not exactly the kind of thing you want to watch with mom.
Words of warning: Unless you aspire to be a porn star, do not make sex videos ever. They are a bad idea.
Catch 23. Liberals can never be criticized because they have no standards.
I have to ask myself Who? whenever a Carrie Prejean topic arises.
My impression is that TMZ is a gossip site out to make a buck. Where there's demand, for whatever reason, profit can be found. I'm not inclined, however, to click over to TMZ to see if I'm right.
She was destroyed by sodomites - much like Jesus himself.
You're a little fuzzy on your mythology, sport. Jesus was killed by Roman soldiers, not the inhabitants of a long-destroyed city.
-jcr
Technically someone is still a teenager when they're 18 or 19. At which point the tape would not be child porn.
Larry Flynt has been making money exploiting that fact since 1974.
"I didn't read that Althouse was criticizing Prejean for not behaving like a Christian."
I'm not sure that's the point. Althouse claims that it's hard to live as a Christian (it is not) and that it's a sin to show your breasts to someone you love, a factually incorrect statement which is just laughably easy to fact-check.
Has the highly-educated Althouse never seen the Sistene Chapel? It is full of grown women showing their boobs to the Church-going world freely. Why, you can even see Jesus' penis on the roof.
Is Jesus some sort of a pervert flasher? Is she labeling Michelangelo a pornographer?
Althouse herself has many escapades she has hidden in her closet that would demonstrate she can't live up to the weird definition of "being a Christian" she would thrust upon Carrie Prejean.
But she's conveniently not telling us of those things, which is quite hypocritical of her and would cast this post in a much different light.
Althouse, the lawyer, also deliberately left out the part of the story that demonstrates the flawed ethics of her stunted colleagues.
Quite convenient, no?
This post reads to me as a pathetic attempt to concern troll; but upon reflection, it's obviously written in such a way that she can profit by the pageviews from Ms. Prejean's trevails as we comment.
Why waste this little personal crisis Ms. Prejean is having, eh Ann?
Very un-Christian-like behavior from Ms. Althouse.
True Christians do not claim to be without sin and to perfectly conform to God's laws. Quite the opposite. Christians acknowledge their sins and and seek God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ.
The hypocrisy of those without any standards pointing out that others have not met the standards of Christianity speaks for itself.
Why anybody gives a crap about this woman I will never know. She shouldn't have been demonized and she shouldn't have been elevated to sainthood either.
Althouse: It's difficult as hell to live up to the standards of Christianity.
*sigh*
1. Hell isn't difficult, in Christian theology. In fact, it's the default.
2. Yes, I know it's a figure of speech. Even given that, it's not hard to live up to the standards of Christianity: it's impossible.
A good 99% of the "criticism" of Christianity that I see (and I don't include Dr. Althouse among this number) consists of imputing to Christians the belief that they're perfect, and then complaining that they aren't—a claim no one familiar with the Christian Bible would ever make.
Paul, aka "Chief of Sinners"
I still do not get why Carrie Prejean thought she had a seven figure lawsuit against the pagent. I am sorry TMZ is going after her. I am sorry the pagent was stupid enough to hire Perez Hilton. I am sorry Perez Hilton is a complete asshole. If you remember, Donald Trump initially backed her (noting her position on gay marriage was no different than Barack Obama's) but she got later booted for not following the appearance rules for the pagent. But ultimately Carrie Prejean is the one setting herself up by trying to get some bucks out of the pagent. If you are going to sue someone, you better believe they are going to come back after you.
She did a dumb thing. She is a dumb girl.
This is not an affront to you all as a conservatives
in any way.
Umm...except Althouse doesn't claim to be a Christian. And again, I don't think she was saying what you think she was saying.
In short, I think she said it was a foolish thing to do, but the real nastiness is the blackmail. I don't think she was judging any Christians.
"It's difficult as hell to live up to the standards of Christianity."
In fact it is impossible, with one notable exception.
"She was destroyed by sodomites - much like Jesus himself."
Jesus died to save everyone, gay people too. Jesus died because I am a sinner and required His innocent death to be reconciled to God. He died for me, for you, for the so called "sodomites."
Trey
Some will see her as a hypocrite and call her on her bullshit. That's the way the cookie crumbles, right?
Two mutually exclusive motives here: either TMZ, as a capitalist enterprise, is motivated by profit; or TMZ, as a political outlet, is motivated by disagreement.
Those are not mutually exclusive. You could say they're actually synergistic in this case -- TMZ gets to grind their axe and turn a profit.
I agree with you Darcy.
Althouse claims that it's hard to live as a Christian (it is not) and that it's a sin to show your breasts to someone you love
Nope. No claim was ever made. In fact, the exact opposite was written:
I don't see anything unChristian about displaying your breasts to a boyfriend that you love.
Geez, Florida, try not to be so judgemental that you show yourself to be an ass. At least read what the hostess wrote. Maybe take a moment to reread it, and be sure you understand it.
Paul has a fair amount to say about sexual ethics, so it's not necessarily outside of Christian ethics to say a woman shouldn't show her breasts to a male--especially as the purpose is to incite lust.
So, we can, within a statement of Christian faith, say that's wrong. We can also say that people do wrong things, even as Christians, that don't measure up to Christ's call and empowerment in our lives. We say we have sinned, confessing the sin, then press on towards a better realization of the freedom from sin, towards life, that we have been given. This is the message of Paul's letter to the Romans, especially chapter 8.
Sin causes all kinds of dysfunctions in self and community so should be addressed within that community. However, simply sinning as a Christian isn't necessarily hypocrisy--which is the chief charge here, no doubt. Prejean confesses it as wrong. Christians are quick to forgive a confession of sin as sin.
The important bit is our attitude towards our behaviors which guide us either in moving forward away from destructive behaviors or in embracing destructive behaviors--which may have momentary pleasure but lead to disorder, chaos, death.
Paul writes that embracing sin is embracing death, it's living in ways that are destructive to self and others, and undermine community. It's a form of slavery, he writes. Those in Christ no longer are slaves to sin, but have been freed. So, to sin is to forsake the freedom for a return to slavery--echoing the story of the Exodus in which the Israelites were freed from Egypt but in their struggles longed for the comforts Egypt offered. This longing for slavery hampered their drive to pursue the freedom and bounty of the Promised Land (which wasn't a "pie in the sky").
It is in this way unChristian to be foolish--foolish in the way that undermines the calling. Being a fool for Christ involves forsaking what the world offers, the wisdom of the world in areas of success and morality, to pursue the "foolish" path that ends up being the more astute journey to wholeness--to being in full who we were always meant to be in our mature freedom.
Prejean is certainly, in a lot of ways, not the model for ideal Christian behavior. But her issues arise precisely from testifying to a Christian sexual ethic. So, charging her with violation of a related sexual ethic is relevant, though her response saying that it was wrong seems to undermine an attempt for a double standard. She might have a log in her eye, but that doesn't make adultery (or whatever) right. It just means she really should be careful about how she judges others who likewise fall.
My impression is that she has taken a stand on the issue without the kind of jugdmentalism that is often expected from Fundamentalists. Curiously, the judgmentalism is coming from the other side, who seek to stone her for violating their own mishmashed code of appropriate thought.
I'm an atheist, and I want to be the first to say that this has nothing to do with Christianity, that is a smoke screen. She spoke an opinion that, to the left, must not be spoken, therefore she must be destroyed by any means possible. What they are doing to her is, in a purely secular way, just plain wrong.
(But a small part of my brain wonders if they would be doing this if she had any other religion, say for instance, Islam?)
In fairness, TMZ claims to have had the video for months and haven't shown it because it's too explicit.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/11/05/sex-tape-carrie-prejean-miss-california-usa-cnn-fox-today/
Also, I read the site regularly... guilty pleasure. They've declined before to show nude pics that were everywhere else on the internet because of the age of the person involved. (I believe Prejean was one of them, as there are plenty of other shots of her bare bod available.) They usually let it be known they have the shots, but they don't run them.
You should do a little more research before making such an inflammatory accusation.
She shouldn't have been demonized and she shouldn't have been elevated to sainthood either.
The people who are defending her are doing so in reaction to the vile hate the left directs towards her.
Which impulse do you think is more harmful to a functioning free society? Mistakenly praising people who don't really deserve it, or vicious and personal attacks attempting to destroy someone for expressing a dissenting viewpoint?
Anyway, Prejean hasn't been elevated to sainthood nearly as much as Obama, unless she won the Nobel Peace Prize when I wasn't looking.
She can come in from the cold pretty quickly by making a video of her abortion.
Well, simply for the sake of elaborating on what Paul's saying as well as my own shameless spreading of the gospel, he's not just saying "We do dumb stuff because we're Christians," he's warning the church of Corinth against becoming prideful in themselves for what Christ has done in them. As verse 7 of that chapter says, "For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?" In other words, why take credit for something you did not do, that was given to you? A man of God is always pointing outward, to the men who inspired him, and to the God who inspires all of them. The most Godly men I've been blessed to know are also always the ones who are quick to point to God and to their mentors as the ones responsible for influencing them, and to dismiss the idea that they deserve credit. However, you are right that the Bible certainly does not call us to practice some kind of outward moral perfection before we're allowed to be saved; on the contrary, the Word over and over says that we come to God bearing all the things that have separated us from Him, and that it's not our actions but Christ's sacrifice alone that absolves us of sin. I can tell you right now that there are a lot of people around that can attest to my extraordinary foolishness and to the things I've done against others and against God, but it was the realization that He was the one reaching out to me that brought me real freedom from being trapped and alone.
As for this issue, it's another one of those frustrating things for me where those who have no interest in the Word try to pick things out of it and use it as a club (and I'm not talking about you, Ann, I'm talking about those who would attack her with this--and there are just as many people who consider themselves believers who do the same thing against those they wish to attack). The underlying message of the Bible is 1) all humanity is lost and sinful, "There is none righteous, not even one," 2) we all try to find satisfaction in things that will never satisfy, "for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me,the fountain of living waters,and hewed out cisterns for themselves,broken cisterns that can hold no water." And finally and thankfully 3) Christ's cross alone has covered the sin of all who believe. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." Even a beauty queen who sends her then-boyfriend a video of herself doing whatever. Sorry for such a long and mostly off-topic comment, but hopefully it adds at least a little something to the discussion.
Trey, excellent words.
"In fact it is impossible, with one notable exception."
I would argue that it is impossible except for this one notable exception who freed us from the chains of the impossible, and sent the Spirit to empower us to live as participants within this notable exception. So it is possible to live in freedom and no longer live as slaves to sin. But not in our own power.
We have to embrace the power of life, the Spirit of life, as we have been re-created, reborn, to live as we truly should live, now and into eternity. That's the symbolism of baptism. And the reminder of the Eucharist.
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
John 8:11 pretty much sums up the Christian ideal.
Teenager? Is TMZ threatening to post child pornography? In any case, what is it? Embarrassing topless nonsense?
Noooo, Ann. If the tape is about her being "alone" and doing it for a boyfriend, it's almost certain to be masturbation with sex toys. Not that I would know about such things you understand. I've never even heard of the Rabbit.
Cheers,
Victoria
I'm not clicking on those links. Watching teenie pr0n is not my cuppa.
In these days of easy instant video making, can you imagine how many people are being sort of blackmailed over vids? I'd guess that it's very hard for teenagers/young people to resist the temptation of it. Or maybe not the temptation, but the pressure.
Especially if they're with someone they trust?
I do not see a post from John at 8:11 today.
MadisonMan:My impression is that TMZ is a gossip site out to make a buck. Where there's demand, for whatever reason, profit can be found.
No, it's more than that. This isn't about profit, this is about gay marriage. For whatever reason, some proponents have decided the only way they are going to get gay marriage accepted is to humiliate those who aren't ready for it.
This commenter got it right:
6p00e54eea0d618834 said...
I'm an atheist, and I want to be the first to say that this has nothing to do with Christianity, that is a smoke screen. She spoke an opinion that, to the left, must not be spoken, therefore she must be destroyed by any means possible. What they are doing to her is, in a purely secular way, just plain wrong.
As a supporter of gay marriage myself, I find these tactics self-defeating and frustrating.
They aren't going to be able to convince enough people that if you don't believe in gay marriage, you should be an asexual being altogether.
Madison Man, that is the funniest thing I have ever read on this blog. And I have been reading for years.
Two mutually exclusive motives here: either TMZ, as a capitalist enterprise, is motivated by profit; or TMZ, as a political outlet, is motivated by disagreement.
Those aren't actually mutually exclusive. In fact, it's practically a definition of what the tabloids do.
Does TMZ think people who are against gay marriage hear about the Carrie Prejean tape and think, "Oh yeah, premarital sex is bad. Making a naked tape of yourself for your boyfriend is horrifying. I'm for gay marriage now!" ?
No. They think. "So what? I really love sex and I like pictures of naked people and I still don't want gay marriage".
vbspurs said...
Not that I would know about such things you understand. I've never even heard of the Rabbit.
I don't suppose not hearing about it was caught on video?
PS- Welcome back. You were missed!
Very clear and insightful analysis, Professor.
So, what I can't understand is how you can see so clearly through this kind of garbage, and yet vote consistent with the type of people who create the garbage. At what point do you start to realize that the nexus is not a coincidence?
After the initial dismay, her father announces that the two will have to get married.
"But I can't!" says the girl. "He smokes!"
Sad to say, the joke hits close to the truth for some quarters of the Mormon church (hint, certain segments in Utah).
Thanks, Ignorance is Bliss! I missed myself at Althouse too. ;)
Cheers,
Victoria
wv: notseven (?? I like it!)
Kleenex box at the ready, Florida asks Althouse to reveal her own intimate secrets.
And yet Althouse,she--a law professor, continues to allow Florida to post.
Once again our hostess commits to the value of free and open discussion, by which fools eventually (or rather quickly) will be discerned.
"But I can't!" says the girl. "He smokes!"
The old Fundamentalist joke is that premarital sex is bad because it might lead to dancing.
The confusion about Christians who are not yet perfect can be made more understandable by Paul's Epistle to the Ephesian Church. In three sections he begins by explaining what a Christians status is "In Christ" which is both justified and blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. Next he gives lots of practical advice on how to live here on earth avoiding as best we can sinning and trying to live by some basic Christian morality rules until Jesus returns. Finally he instructs Christians here on earth how to withstand attacks against them by Satanic spiritual powers. This is sometimes summed up as 'Sit, walk and stand" The Christian is taught to sit in his heavenly victory while he walks carefully in this world and stands up to attacks. So Carrie is a Christian sitting on a throne with Christ in heaven spiritually, who must still walk out her life here on earth, while she stands up to attacks from unseen forces "in the evil day". Does that teaching by Paul help take the seeming contradictions out of her life story?
Darcy said...
"In these days of easy instant video making . . . . I'd guess that it's very hard for teenagers/young people to resist the temptation of it. Or maybe not the temptation, but the pressure. Especially if they're with someone they trust?"
The temptation I get, but the pressure? Do young guys routinely pressure their girlfriends to make sex videos for them, and do young girls find it hard to resist this pressure? I must be really out of touch. It seems so incredibly clear that this is a bad idea, and that a guy who would pressure you to make the video is a bad choice. Fathers and mothers, teach your girls to have a spine. After 40 years of feminism in popular culture, we should be able to get father than this.
This seems like a sort of left wing extortion not just of women but of any group they think they 'own.' Stay on the left wing plantation or we'll come after you. Do what we tell you or you'll regret it. You don't want to end up like Palin and Prejean do you? DO YOU? Yeah I thought not, honey.
Exactly. Take note, women with conservative or libertarian opinions:
You'd better be developing that skin of yours into rhino hide.
Hollywood needs to get Dr. Drew to do a TV reality show called X-ian Rehab, so former Christians can be properly rehabilitated into the modern nonjudgemental amorality.
Or else they can convert to radical islam. Either or.
LOL, Pogo!
As I think about this the really key passage is Romans 1:18-2.
The first bit is the well known part. Often used to attack violators of the accepted morality. Verses 26-27 directly mention homosexual behavior.
The only problem is that Paul wasn't writing a letter to the local newspaper or declaring this in the streets holding a sign. He was writing to the church in Rome.
And he follows his strong moral stand with a curious turn. For us, it begins chapter 2. He didn't write in chapters, though, so it's the same thought. "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."
This is essentially the stance those attacking Prejean are taking. The key distinction is that Prejean didn't make her beliefs her cause. She was asked a direct question and gave an honest answer. And she is being ridiculed and attacked because of her freedom of conscience to believe as she believes.
Which makes the curious turn in that it is her accusers who are the new Inquisition, coming up with a set of questions designed to tease out the cultural heretics, even if they stay in the background.
So, it's wrong to make the sexual ethics the primary "Gospel". That's not the good news, it's the hope that is the good news which leads those of us who embrace this hope to pattern our lives in ways that best embraces this new life we've been offered.
But, it's also wrong to make a religious test, forcing people into an approved set of beliefs. That's precisely the battles of the 17th century America which led to the philosophy that set a freedom of religion in our Constitution. Only in this case, curiously enough, the libertines are the Puritans of the social order. And they will brand, and they will stone, and they will mock, and put you in the stocks. And like the Puritans, they will strip the young ladies in front of all, whipping them in public for their supposed sins, inciting the lust they sneeringly deride.
Do young guys routinely pressure their girlfriends to make sex videos for them?
Girls don't need pressure these days.
so former Christians can be properly rehabilitated into the modern nonjudgemental amorality.
Ha!
Though, I think this is pretty much what Oprah is doing already. :-D
The first bit is the well known part. Often used to attack violators of the accepted morality. Verses 26-27 directly mention homosexual behavior.
Verses 26-27 is the punishment for sin, not a sin in itself.
Do young guys routinely pressure their girlfriends to make sex videos for them, and do young girls find it hard to resist this pressure? I must be really out of touch. It seems so incredibly clear that this is a bad idea, and that a guy who would pressure you to make the video is a bad choice.
Ok, if you take out the word video, don't we have the age old story here? One that used to involve blue balls and causes of acne?
"Christians gone Wild" does have a ring to it, doesn't it?
I'm guessing, David. These videos are discussed everywhere, it seems. And yeah, I think there is pressure. I'm not making a statement about the judgment involved.
Maybee: Yes! Exactly.
Isn't the very possession of child pornography illegal? (provided that the tape does show a pre-18 Carrie Prejean).
It seems to me that the only people who look bad in any sex tape scandal are the people who sell or release the tape.
Why do movies and documentaries need release forms?
Apparently it's legal to publicly release footage of people even when they have been explicitly promised that footage of them will never be released and the creation of the footage is dependent upon such promises.
Carrie was in negotiations to bring out a line of Chrisian bikini swimwear. This will probably put the kibosh on that. However, the scandal will probably enhance sales of the line of Christian lingerie she sells in conjunction with Victoria's Secret.....The Lord works in stange ways his wonders to perform. Carrie has sure inspired a number of earnest, thoughtful replies about the meaning of Christianity. My take: Carrie is sincere about her Christian beliefs, and she is not above cashing in on whatever topspin those beliefs give her career. Good for her. Beauty queens, by definition, exploit their beauty to gain fame and fortune. Christianity, like beauty, is not incompatible with capitalism.....I don't think a sex tape is that big a deal. In twenty years, this scandal will have the same resonance as Vanessa Williams naked pictures. If, however, the tape shows her masturbating to an image of Obama, many of her most impassioned defenders will cast her from the fold. Some will want to stone her to death.
Anyone insisting that they know what's on the tape are gullible fools.
Anyone insisting that this is the kid's fault is a fool, too.
I wish she would just own up to her mistake, though, by naming exactly who threatened her, who showed this tape to her mother (which I think is a crime), and who this boyfriend is, so that he can be asked wh how much he sold this for and why he did it.
Anyone who enjoyed that pageant before was a bit silly... now they are an asshole. We need to be clear about that. She needs to move forward with her lawsuit, and amend her complaint to include this extortion and IIED. Personally, I think that's the Christian thing to do.
That would be nice if that were the typical judgment in these things, Freeman.
And lol, William.
Yes, possession of a photo of a sex tape involving someone under 18is a crime, a federal one at that. Surely, this was done after she was 18. TMZ would have to be awfully stupid or arrogant not to make sure before doing this.
If she wasn't 18, then legally speaking Prejean is the victim of a sex crime. And TMZ are child pornographers. If I were the LA county DA, I would subpeona the tape. If she is under 18, I would arrest and charge the whole crew.
This is intended as an object lesson for those who disagree with the Left. This is what will happen to you if you cross us. This fear is what kept the associates of Hasan from reporting him. They knew that if it ever became public, they would be pilloried in this way. Look at Sarah Palin's reputation, and watch what happens in this thread at the mere mention of her name.
I have been thinking that Digital Rights Management (DRM) should include the ability of private individuals to control how content they create will be used. For instance you could hand out single view codes. Or tie the ability to view a piece of content to the reciever, in some way.
This fear is what kept the associates of Hasan from reporting him. They knew that if it ever became public, they would be pilloried in this way.
Wow. That is a really interesting and apt comparison.
David said...
After 40 years of feminism in popular culture, we should be able to get father than this.
Freudian slip?
The Alinsky strategy of holding the Left's opponents to the high standards of their religious or ethical codes is a tacit admission that the Left has no such standards or codes. When will people begin to see that?
I heard about this several weeks ago when a competitor to TMZ asserted that the tape doesn't exist with the evidence that it would have already been released had it been and as someone said above, if they did have a tape, they would be committing a crime. (Apparently this wouldn't be the first time TMZ claimed to possess something it didn't.)
Dividebytube wrote:
isn't the very possession of child pornography illegal? (provided that the tape does show a pre-18 Carrie Prejean).
OT, but do you guys know there's a computer virus which collects child porn, completely unbeknownst to you?
"Pedophiles can exploit virus-infected PCs to remotely store and view their stash without fear they'll get caught. Pranksters or someone trying to frame you can tap viruses to make it appear that you surf illegal Web sites."
That is about the scariest thing I can think of.
Skippy50 wrote: Liberals can never be criticized because they have no standards.
Sure they can be criticized, as Althouse has done herself with her critique of those feminists who stood by Bill Clinton.
Alinsky's rules aren't bound to one ideological viewpoint. Every time anyone takes a "carbon footprint" swipe at Al Gore, they are using Alinsky's rule 4.
John wrote: Yes, possession of a photo of a sex tape involving someone under 18is a crime, a federal one at that. Surely, this was done after she was 18. TMZ would have to be awfully stupid or arrogant not to make sure before doing this.
If she wasn't 18, then legally speaking Prejean is the victim of a sex crime. And TMZ are child pornographers. If I were the LA county DA, I would subpeona the tape. If she is under 18, I would arrest and charge the whole crew.
And if she made the tape, does she get charged, too?
if this has already been said, forgive me:
i watch TMZ a lot (guilty pleasure). harvey levin and the rest of the crew there have a vendetta against ms. prejean and bash her whenever the opportunity arises.
it is my understanding that harvey is gay - although he never alludes to it on the air - so you can be sure that whatever they do with this story has as much to do with TMZ's leftist politics as the "titillation value" of the tape.
Ann doesn't claim to be a Christian, but like the closet Alinskyite she is, she will attack Carrie Prejean with it like a cudgel.
i watch TMZ a lot (guilty pleasure). harvey levin and the rest of the crew there have a vendetta against ms. prejean and bash her whenever the opportunity arises.
Oh, that shows you the culture exile I have been in -- TMZ is a channel now, not just a site?
Burn the Christian witch! Hee-haw for Alinsky!
Dems and libs are the biggest hypocrites. They get to argue that any sex is a personal matter, yet are always the first to go after their opponents on the grounds that their opponents are hypocrites. Thus they get to be moralists for others but not for themselves. Were it them, it would of course reverts back to being a personal matter. Because you see, they don't REALLY have any problems with sexual peccadiloes they just have to expose hypocricy every scintillating and purient step of the way making sure to leave no details unturned.I guess they are pulling an Alinskyite move and trying to make their enemies live by their own rules, but since they don't actually live by any rules it's ok for them to not obey the rules.Or to put it another way, their shit doesn't stink based on the mere fact that they are enlightened and blessed with pure moral clarity, which of course they imply is beyond mere good and evil.
But regardless of the motivation how in fact are the libs different than the so called moralists who they say are trying to impose their morality on everyone?
Alinsky's rules aren't bound to one ideological viewpoint. Every time anyone takes a "carbon footprint" swipe at Al Gore, they are using Alinsky's rule 4.
Such swipes never leave any damage to their progressive targets.
Prate about "global warming" but live in a big mansion and fly around in private jets? No problem! Pontificate about the debt we owe to our fellow man but never donate anything to charity? No problem! Say that paying taxes is patriotic but chisel on them yourself? No problem!
Dems and libs are the biggest hypocrites. They get to argue that any sex is a personal matter, yet are always the first to go after their opponents on the grounds that their opponents are hypocrites.
>>>
This is very true and usually pretty silly if it weren't so serious. I recall a few years ago they had a picture of Michelle Malkin in a bikini and were making a huge deal out of it. It turned out to be photoshopped but if it wasn't... So What! Conservatives wear bikini's and go to pools too. Most of it is so stupid. Like this.
A sex tape... you know some of these Christian hating bigots should read the song of solomon. You'd be shocked at what is in that there bible.
Prate about "global warming" but live in a big mansion and fly around in private jets? No problem! Pontificate about the debt we owe to our fellow man but never donate anything to charity? No problem! Say that paying taxes is patriotic but chisel on them yourself? No problem!
That's because everyone knows they don't really believe the things they moralize about. Nobody really think Al Gore gives a shit about carbon footprints. Their real concern is with power, getting it and keeping it by any means possible.
A sex tape
That's nothing. A sailboat owning friend of mine had a sex tent (at least that's what he said). And the faculty of a school I attended had a sex hour. (George Sexauer, IIRC)
"I don't see anything unChristian about displaying your breasts to a boyfriend that you love."
Matthew 5:28: "I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Matthew 18:7: "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!"
I have heard that it is a manual of arms and fingers and other sections of the anatomy. Or perhaps better phrased: a digital enhancement of her enjoyment.
Of course it was an internet rumor so I immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was true.
Any one know where I can get a copy?
The world's greatest Christian was Jewish.
Go figure.
Considering how everyone (including Prejean) is hinting and reacting to it, I assume it's more than topless prancing. Perhaps she's vigorously pleasuring herself using toys and tools I wouldn't even recognize?
In any case, seriously, what is it with former boyfriends who release private sex tapes? I assume that's what happened. That's just wrong!
She did a dumb thing. She is a dumb girl.
She does unfortunately, appear to have the ability to regularly shoot herself in the foot.
Is there never anyone around to tell people like Carrie that what they're doing, or planning to do isn't the best idea in the world. In her book she writes about the evils of pornography while knowing she has made an explicit tape of herself. Dumb, very dumb. Make decisions like this and you've only got yourself to blame should you get called on it.
Believe it or not I don't have any sex tapes of myself. Part of it is because I would be grossed out and the other part is I don't even know how to use a video camera.
I would like to see her tits pre surgery though just because I would like to do a pre and post analysis and I enjoy a nice rack.
I don't care for frivilous lawsuits though.
And Harvey Levin major pooftah.
You know her and Levi will be in some reality show soon though.
I don't care for porn much either-it's too staged and unreal and I always think about what the entire set must be like with fluffers and crap like that-it gives me a total softy. I blame Boogie Nights.
We don't know the details. All we know is that she made a tape so explicit that even TMZ decided not to release it.
As for the rest, I think Jesus H. covered Prejean when he said, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Christians just love to ignore the words of the guy they claim to follow.
We keep hearing this Rule Four thing.
We keep on hearing, over and over, that it's the hypocrisy. So, presumably, the way to not ever be held accountable for nasty behavior is to never make any higher claim?
But you know... there IS a higher claim made. It's a claim of tolerance and liberalism. This is essentially a MORAL claim... that they are better than that.
Make them live up to it.
"And if she made the tape, does she get charged, too?"
Only if you can prove she distributed it. These "sexting" cases involve girls who sent naked pictures of themselves to their boyfriends. Posing for the pictures is not a crime. Otherwise, every kid in child porn would be a criminal. The whole point of the law is that she wasn't old enough to give lawful consent. So she is not guilty.
Seriously, if TMZ has a copy of a sex tape involving an underage girl, everyone there who viewed it ought to go to jail. That is what would happen if any other business had such a tape.
"As for the rest, I think Jesus H. covered Prejean when he said, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Christians just love to ignore the words of the guy they claim to follow."
JUST like this. Exactly like this.
Christians must not "cast stones" even if they do nothing more than say what their OWN feelings about something are.
The idea of tolerating other views and co-existing with them can't even be lived up to by "tolerant" sorts... and suddenly Christians are condemned for *having* views which is NOT the standard of their own rules at all, but some bizarre constructed straw rule.
"Christians just love to ignore the words of the guy they claim to follow."
Well this is often true, but I think that's not the point of this post. Just the opposite.
Nothing is more popular than a great testimony of youthful indiscretion followed by later confession. It's calling the wrong the wrong that's a key bit, not doing a wrong in the past.
Don't judge, is followed by "go and sin no more." It's calling the wrong a good that is most troubling to social conservatives. She called the wrong a wrong, and everyone moves on.
Well not everyone. Moving on is surprising hard for some people who love to obsess over others' activities.
WV: cheri.
I try not to judge others...unless they are unattractive, then I sometimes break my rule.
Unattractive people can distract a fabulous walk...sometimes.
A nice rack bouncing it a tight sweater, preferably black or white or red can make my day. So refreshing and enjoyable.
Also, nice legs in a short skirt and high boots is yummy.
Also, a really bad fashion mistake can ruin my entire day, but then I just take a deep breath and say Namaste.
Oh, that shows you the culture exile I have been in -- TMZ is a channel now, not just a site?
That was my reaction too. Can althouse TV be far behind?
Carrie and Levi in a reality TV show, I think Titus has predicted the future.
Ms. Prejean's one newsworthy action was to state a belief counter to the "politically correct" belief. Once that issue passed Ms. Prejean chose to capitalize on that fame as a speaker at events, many christian-oriented.
As a Christian I've been surprised at home many groups rushed to get her to speak to them ("to elighten them?"). It was a mistake.
Yes, some of these behaviors (re: the videotape) are not "acceptable" under Christianity. They are forgiveable but not "appropriate". These behaviors say little about her initial statement.
It sure would be nice though to just once have a "non-Christian" figure publically and rationally state his/her disagreement with gay marriage. Until then it will continue to be "the Christianists" versus "loving, committed couples"
MM,
I like the Cari Levi reality show idea but only if Andrew Sullivan can serve as chaperone.
I'm personally pro Gay Marriage but the hateful attacks on Prejean and teh Mormons, etc, have really sickened me.
I'm probably not going to vote for gay marriage until the gay rights crowd stops acting like thugs.
wv: condopic - hopefully ones with Prejean doing something someone who has never read the bible thinks is unchristian!
The AP (at least) is reporting that the tape was made when Prejean was seventeen (17). If so, it's child porn.
- see http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/11/10/national/a052939S95.DTL
This whole sorry episode shows the wisdom of Emily Post's words long ago about women writing letters to men:
"Never so long as you live, write a letter to a man — no matter who he is — that you would be ashamed to see in a newspaper above your signature. Remember that every word of writing is immutable evidence for or against you, and words which are thoughtlessly put on paper may exist a hundred years hence."
Then as now, written or electronic, discretion is the better part of virtue.
Ann, I thought the emphasis of your post was going to be the Left's campaign of destruction against someone who had voiced a non-PC opinion, coincidentally an opinion shared by a majority of voters in every state where it's come up. Or maybe you were going to address the issue that TMZ was threatening to publish child porn in an extortion attempt. You did those things, but you chose to wrap up your post by joining (half-heartedly) the attack on Carrie Prejean. What she did was foolish, as more than a few 17-year olds, Christian or not, tend to do foolish things. As to this issue, if you're interested, the Bible actually addresses the issue of "non-Christian" behavior by Christians in the book of Romans (chapters 7 and 8, in particular).
Heck with email, your written words can exists forever!
But back to the main issue. What is this Althousian logic here? Is the issue that Carrie Prejean was against Prop 8 and only pure Christians can be anti-gay? I'm really mystified as to what Ann is thinking here - other then pouring more hatred and scorn upon Miss Prejean. Yup, Althouse is leading the mob to burn the witch!
If Prejean made the tape, then she can register the copyright and sue TMZ for showing it.
And it can't be a sex tape if she's not having sex on it.
Christians living up, or not, to their moral code is not a problem for "progressives". The problem is Christians actually having their moral code. No code other than slogans, victims and evils du joir proclaimed by the "progressives" are allowed.
Hypocrisy is the act of "pretending" to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have. So, if a person acts contrary to their stated beliefs, does that mean that they are automatically a hypocrite? Does violating a personal standard mean that they relinquish the right to continue believing in the violated standard and to publicly state this belief? Does violation of a standard, in and of itself, lead to the conclusion that the person is "pretending?" One doesn't have to be a Christian to act contrary to what one believes is true. All humans do it. But few abandon a belief simply because they momentarily fail to live up to their own expectations. People on both sides of the political spectrum, who find joy in condemning others for brief errors in judgment, need to spend more time examining their own lives rather then engaging in the politics of personal destruction.
Ann,
You need to get rid of that ugly orange blob in tabs and replace it with your own Favicon
Personalize your blog. It is free.
WV: backaya
New WV: palium - you are my pal I 'um....
I'm probably not going to vote for gay marriage until the gay rights crowd stops acting like thugs.
Come on, be real. You're not going to vote for gay marriage because you hate gay people. It has nothing to do with "thuggish" behavior by anyone.
If Prejean made the tape, then she can register the copyright and sue TMZ for showing it.
Check the "fair use" exemption.
Nothing is more popular than a great testimony of youthful indiscretion followed by later confession. It's calling the wrong the wrong that's a key bit, not doing a wrong in the past.
The only things that this woman admits are whatever someone independently learns. Her credibility as a reformed sinner is nil.
The AP (at least) is reporting that the tape was made when Prejean was seventeen (17). If so, it's child porn.
The age of consent is 16, so it's not child porn. In any case, TMZ ought to publish a verbal description of what she did on that tape.
suddenly Christians are condemned for *having* views which is NOT the standard of their own rules at all
Christians are forever saying one thing and doing the opposite. It used to baffle me, until I realized the con game at the center of it.
As soon as someone says the magic words -- "I accept Jesus H. Christ as my personal savior, who died on the cross for my sins, and pledge $1,000 to Pat Robertson," they will go to heaven as a believer no matter what the hell they ever do.
It's a celestial get-out-of-jail card, and it's a joke and a hoax. But the "Christians" believe it, and it's the key to the circus that is their "religion."
Ah, the tolerance of the ignorant.
Who's Pat Robertson?
As for the rest, I think Jesus H. covered Prejean when he said, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Did they even have concrete back then?
Dark Eden: "I'm probably not going to vote for gay marriage until the gay rights crowd stops acting like thugs."
grinder: "Come on, be real. You're not going to vote for gay marriage because you hate gay people. It has nothing to do with "thuggish" behavior by anyone."
Oh, wow, you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO right!
You're a hater, Eden, a hater!
Grinder... can you tell me what I think about things and why I do what I do? I just can't figure that out for my own self. Please help me! After all, you know pagans better than they know themselves, and Christians better than they know themselves. The world has been waiting just for you!
can you tell me what I think about things and why I do what I do?
Res ipsa loquitur, baby. It's written all over the smarmy faces of your hypocrite preachers and spokesmodels.
Ann, I don't think TMZ cares about Christianity or hypocrisy or destroying Carrie Prejean. They're a gossip site and they'll quickly publish any sex tapes, nude photos, boob slips, etc. It's not Prejean politics that interest them, but rather that they've got video of a nekkid celebrity.
"The age of consent is 16, so it's not child porn. In any case, TMZ ought to publish a verbal description of what she did on that tape."
Grinder you are woefully misinformed. 18 USC Section 2256 defines child porn. It defines minor as anyone under 18. You can consent to sex at age 16 in some states. But, child porn is a federal crime. You can't consent to posing naked if you are under 18. If she was 17, the tape was child porn.
I would like to see her tits pre surgery though...
Titus, I found a picture of her rack right here. I'm thinking this is post-surgery. The rack is definitely altered. (Semi-NSFW)
There's a paradox in Christianity. It preaches against sin, but also provides forgiveness for those who repent.
It teaches that fornication is a sin, but that we should not condemn the sinner.
The critics of Christianity always insist that the former equals the latter and that because everyone has sinned, all Christians are hypocrites.
Lust and fornication are sin, but sex within marriage is not. So Ms. Prejean committed sins, but it's not up to anyone else to condemn her. Christ is her judge, not TMZ. Satan is called "the accuser" in the scriptures.
At the same time, nobody should take the lesson that sin isn't something to avoid. Paul wrote to Timothy that some would come into the church "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,"
He also told the Romans that it was wrong to argue that we should commit sins so "that grace may abound." The effect of conversion is to repent and become dead to sin.
In the end, Carrie Prejean may have committed sins, but it's a greater sin to condemn her for things she has repented of. Christ had his harshest words for the Pharisees who condemned others and pretended that they were better and without sin.
Her critics are the ones stoning her, and they have no right to do so or to call her a hypocrite for stating her belief in Christ.
Personally I have no use for beauty pageants. They're immodest and based on "admiring" the bodies of young women, and as we see they're also used as a way to attack the religious faith of some people.
Way too late to actually contribute anything to this conversation. But I heard an Interview with Mr. Levin about this issue when it broke, and honestly I think Ann is taking this from the wrong angle because she (understandably) doesn't want to wade through all this BS.
Way I heard it: Ms. Prejean demonstrates she's rather shallow, and holds opinions that clash with an internet blowhard. Controversy. The pageant officials stand up for her right to free speech, even if she made a bit of a fool of herself, and stick with her.
In her gratitude, she proceeds to blow off her duties as Ms. CA, missing events she AGREED to attend in favor of her own publicity tour. She's not doing her job and this is it for the pageant, they fire her. So she sues them claiming it all comes back to her comments (which I bet Mr. Trump sees as free publicity and doesn't care about). So they bring her in and show her the video to shut her up. It's more about a self-absorbed and yes, liberally-hated, vacuous girl getting a bit of comeuppance for biting the hand that feeds her.
And TMZ is NOT releasing the tapes. The interview I heard was friends of Mr. Levin complaining that he'd never even told them it existed, while he demurred and jokingly brushed aside the possibility of ever releasing it. He sounded like he'd find it personally objectionable to post porn like that. It struck me as a flash of ethics for an otherwise scummy profession. Sure they'll mention it for pageviews, it's a funny story. But if it ever sees the light of day I doubt it will be through TMZ, and I think Ann is demonizing them overly much in defense of a thoughtless and self-centered girl who doesn't really deserve it.
grinder wrote:
grinder: "Come on, be real. You're not going to vote for gay marriage because you hate gay people. It has nothing to do with "thuggish" behavior by anyone."
You do realize that marriage, as an institution that honors the male/female relationship as the norm has been around for thousands of years, right? And that the gay challenges to it have only taken place in the last few decades or so?I suppose when those first few people came up with the concept of a marriage between a man and a woman under god that they were just out to stick it to the fags. "Yes, having an institution that promotes a healthy family bond that will produce children and thus further societies survival is important, but what it really about is sticking it to the gays."
Well, if it's child porn, then whoever gave it to TMZ ought to give it to someone else, anonymously, and post it on Xtube. It will hardly be the only video of a 17-year-old that had made its way to the Internet.
As for Christians, there is absolutely nothing they won't justify, except for homosexuality. That one is their bete noir for some reason. But lying, cheating, stealing, and torture? Not a problem.
And divorce, by the way. Ol' Jesus H. never said a word about the homos, which certainly existed in his time, but said a whole lot about divorce. The Christians are no dummies. They know that there are too many divorced people out there for them to be able to go after that crowd. Homos? Not so many, and Christians need nothing so much as an enemy.
You do realize that marriage, as an institution that honors the male/female relationship as the norm has been around for thousands of years, right? And that the gay challenges to it have only taken place in the last few decades or so?
"You do realize that slavery, as an institution that honors the proper hierarchy of human beings, has been around for thousands of years, right? And that the abolitionist challenges have only taken place in the last few decades or so?"
- Southern Baptists, circa 1855 or so
By the way, if Prejean was alone on the tape, then she was masturbating. The only question remaining is whether there were any dildos, and if so, exactly where they were inserted.
Hey Christians, as long as she's cute, it's okay! But geez, if your spokesmodel will poke herself on camera, don't ya think it's a little, oh, I don't know, ironic or something, to make her your poster child against gay marriage?
How 'bout Larry Craig, or our favorite meth 'n man-sex guy from "The Springs," the Rev. I'm-Not-Gay Haggard? Not a lot of crocodile tears of sympathy from the Christian peanut gallery there.
You're no different than anyone else: "Whatever one or more girls does in the privacy of her own bedroom is okay by me, as long as she makes movies!"
The only things that this woman admits are whatever someone independently learns. Her credibility as a reformed sinner is nil.
Ha. So she had some obligation to publicly confess all past sins and indiscretions? Give me a break.
grinder makes a good point that appeals to tradition do not equal to morality. Open up marriage to everyone I say! In fact I'm going to attend a gay pride parade next summer.
Grinder,
Obama's the poster child for the anti-gay marriage movement. He had Rick Warren do an invocation at his inauguration.
Obama said his religious beliefs were part of the reason he is against gay marriage.
As someone who is in favor of a gay marriage, I don't agree with Obama or Prejean.
So if gay marriage is your issue, vote for Dick Cheney in 2012.
So if gay marriage is your issue, vote for Dick Cheney in 2012.
Hooray!
After 40 years of feminism in popular culture, we should be able to get fa[r]ther than this. (10:53 AM)
The feminism of the last 40 years has evidently encouraged women to believe that walking around with their jugs hanging out and bonking frivolously, on camera and off, has something to do with equality.
Not complainin', just noticin'.
Res ipsa loquitur, baby. It's written all over the smarmy faces of your hypocrite preachers and spokesmodels. (2:47 PM)
However, this particular "thing" only "speaks for itself" clearly to delusional left wing bloviaters.
BTW, only the Democrats have spokesmodels. They call them "Mr. President" and "The First Lady."
"But geez, if your spokesmodel will poke herself on camera, don't ya think it's a little, oh, I don't know, ironic or something, to make her your poster child against gay marriage?"
Perez Hilton made her the poster child against gay marriage.
Him, and him alone.
And totally voluntary.
I suppose he was so sure that he could get a plug in FOR gay marriage during the beauty pageant because he couldn't possibly imagine anyone saying *in public* and on *national television*, that she's just fine with everyone thinking their own thing about it but she personally thinks marriage is between a man and a woman."
OMG! Poor Perez! He was just looking for a nice little prime time endorsement, after all.
I think they ought to deregulate marriage. Get the government out of it. Recognize civil unions, and leave "marriage" outside of government purview.
But Christians hate civil unions, too. When I was a kid, Christians said that gays couldn't form relationships. Now that I am older, Christians are mad that gays form relationships.
Christians are some of the most hateful people in this society. It's a real shame, because their Bible has a lot of good stuff in it. They ought to crack it open some time.
Can we vote for gay marriage that stipulates Perez Hilton, Andrew Sullivan, and Dan Savage cannot take part? I think that would up the support by at least 20%.
Freeman Hunt continues her anti-gay rampage.
Christians this. Christians that.
That's a whole lot of people with a whole lot of different views that you're grouping together there.
Well, heck.
Grinder thew away the salvation and kept the hyper judgmental holier-than-thou church lady outrage.
Win-win!
Freeman Hunt continues her anti-gay rampage.
No, I'm preparing to begin my anti-Alex rampage.
I kid, I kid.
Freeman Hunt - tell me how does a gay couple going down to city hall to get married hurt you?
Grinder wrote: Hey Christians, ... don't ya think it's a little, oh, I don't know, ironic or something, to make her your poster child against gay marriage?
Wait! You mean she's marrying another woman?
Holy moley! That is ironic! (LOL)
Freeman Hunt - tell me how does a gay couple going down to city hall to get married hurt you?
How important is reading comprehension to your life? Go back and read my comments.
Freeman - I did read all your comments and you seem to be very anti-gay. What have gay people ever done to you?
Oh wait, I get it. Defending Prejean on this issue is somehow synonymous with being against gay marriage and civil unions.
What a world.
grinder - it's useless with these people. They won't even admit their gay-hatred. They try to couch it in friendlier-sounding terms. But we see through them!
Freeman - defenders of Prejean are invariably anti-gay marriage. Correlation = Causation in this case!
Hey Christians, as long as she's cute, it's okay! But geez, if your spokesmodel will poke herself on camera, don't ya think it's a little, oh, I don't know, ironic or something, to make her your poster child against gay marriage?
Haven't seen the tape, but that could actually make for quite the poster. I'm sure some of us would be more than willing to work up a few captions.
What is funny is someone so tied to idiology that they view a tape made by one person, intended for an opposite-sex significant other's personal viewing....and see an inconsistency relating to gay marriage. (I'd say it's ironic, but it's clear you don't know what the word actuallly means.)
If she's shouting out a woman's name while doing whatever it is she's doing, you might have a point.
As to the larger issue, you're proving the point of most of the posters here. People who talk about morality and ascribe a moral existance aren't necessarily perfect themselves. In issues of morality, it is necessary to separate the message (that an act or conduct is inherently right or wrong) from the imperfect messenger. Screwing up doesn't make the message wrong, it just makes the messenger human.
grinder - it's useless with these people. They won't even admit their gay-hatred. They try to couch it in friendlier-sounding terms. But we see through them!
>>>>>
I'm a bisexual Prejean supporter. And I'm not even Christian!
But I suppose I'm a self hating traitor since I disagree with the party line.
BJK - by that logic, Al Gore is only human and we should believe in the AGW-god.
Boy, don't grinder's posts just make you want to make him king? I mean the awesome superiority on display there just makes me want to elect him and his kind the master race! Until I met him, I didn't even know there was a master race. He should be making our laws. Or should I say "giving" our laws? His majestic perfection gives him every natural right to punish this horrible child for her obvious thought crimes.
Barlycorn - I can see grinder has got under your skin. Mission accomplished buddy!
*virtual high five with grinder*
I too am mystified about the part where Christianity forbids sexuality. I think that is more often seen in the movies, or on SNL, than it is in real life.
grinder - it's useless with these people. They won't even admit their gay-hatred. They try to couch it in friendlier-sounding terms. But we see through them!
Not sure it's useless, Alex. If nothing else, by forcing them to bleat out their non-hatred, even if that's a complete lie, is a form of progress over time.
Christians are some of the most hateful people in this society.
True enough. Also, they are incredibly defensive. Any time they are criticized for anything, they jump up and down and scream that their critics are "haters." Yet even their harshest critics aren't trying to deny them their civil rights like they want to do with those "sinners" who appear to be the most politically vulnerable.
Christians are essentially the biggtest bunch of wingnut Republican crybabies around.
Don't forget, we age and get fat and sag and bear babies and hips spread and there are stretch marks.
When you're young and nubile and perfect, there should be plenty of good visual evidence of one's future formerly hotness.
You aren't young forever. Don't take your hot days for granted. Cherish them, enjoy them, prudently document them, and in the future, relish them, and embarrass the grandkids. LOL
Don't be ashamed of youth and beauty and sexuality and nubility.
Enough with the psycho prudes. Look away if you can't stand God's beautiful creation.
I say this as a devout Christian.
WWJD? Well, who knows, he died at 33, in a time when that was pretty close to average life expectancy.
If he were alive today, in this long-lived age, with our visual communication technology?
I don't know, but he seemed to really like feasting and wine and hookers. I think he'd be down with it. He might even point to Miss Prejean and boast, "Look what I made!" and grin real big.
Trenchant riposte, Alex. I wish I was as smart as you.
kentuckyliz - too late! You prudes can't take back 300 years of prudery when it's convenient for you(aka the Carrie Prejean diddling herself tape). You make me sick!
I asked And if she made the tape, does she get charged, too?
John, at 1:29, replied: Only if you can prove she distributed it. These "sexting" cases involve girls who sent naked pictures of themselves to their boyfriends. Posing for the pictures is not a crime. Otherwise, every kid in child porn would be a criminal. The whole point of the law is that she wasn't old enough to give lawful consent. So she is not guilty.
Sorry, if she made the tape and mailed it or otherwise passed it on to her then boyfriend, she could be charged for her actions just as the "sexting" girls were charged.
Christians are some of the most hateful people in this society.
Right! We should all become Muslims. At least it would stop all the whinging about gay marriage.
Or we could recreate one of the "great" twentieth century atheist societies, where political whinging is treason.
You anti-Christian folks revel in the tolerance and freedom created for you by Judeo-Christian morality. Unfortunately, your entitlement mentality deludes you into thinking we are obliged to embrace your morality societally and abandon our own.
I too am mystified about the part where Christianity forbids sexuality.
Christians have a massive complex about sex. Hell, many of them don't even want contraceptives to be available to married heterosexuals let alone anyone else.
It really goes back to the ancient battle between the spirit and the flesh. Christianity works best in societies dominated by earthly misery. As soon as people gain a little affluence, it starts to freak out the Christians and they have to come up with ruses like when the protestants preached (and still do) that wealth is God's blessing on the righteous.
Where they really lost it was when the birth control pill severed the link between sex and reproduction. The Christians still haven't figured out how to deal with that one other than to suck in all four cheeks and try to fight against the idea that people might want to have sex for no purpose other than the fun of it.
The idea of recreational sex makes Christian blood run cold, except when the Baptists are in town and renting X-rated movies in the privacy of their hotel rooms.
One wants to tell the Christians to loosen up, but if that happens I worry that we'll lose our kinky edge. Sex without Christian guilt might wind up being too boring. I mean, the Christians put the "beating" in "Bible beating," right?!
BJK - by that logic, Al Gore is only human and we should believe in the AGW-god.
I don't blame Al Gore for eco-profiteering. I question the underlying science underlying the global warming phenomenon, as well as the attempt to establish a moral imperative on that basis.
If Al Gore sees a way to support a cause he believes in, and make money in the process....good for him. Are his private plane & electric bill a bit hypocritical if he really believes the things he says? Probably.
It's still the message that I care more about than the messenger. Like how the message shifted from "global warming" to "climate change" when the globe stopped warming. You might as well just call it 'weather' at this point.
grinder - you are so right! Christians have a massive complex about sex. Recreational sex does make their blood run cold, and they just clam up about it. They can't deal with it! Fortunately 98% of the rest of the world is totally loose and into kinky sex!
Me a prude? Alex, did you even read my comment? I'm a Christian chick with lingerie pix and a middle aged woman's appreciation of having documented her own former hotness lest anyone doubt it...and said Jesus is down wid dat.
So WTF Alex?
Christians this. Christians that.
Freeman: That's a whole lot of people with a whole lot of different views that you're grouping together there.
It goes around, which of course, doesn't justify it.
The Left this. The Left that.
I support same sex marriage. I also support the right of Prejean to say what she thinks without being attacked for her views.
Christians are some of the most hateful people in this society.
>>>
Here's a thought experiment. Disagree with a Christian politely about one of their sacred cows. Now disagree with a Liberal politely about one of their sacred cows.
See which one you get a more hateful and angry reaction from. Hint: It won't be the Christian.
peter hoh - I'm as guilty as anyone of engaging in generalizations. I resolve to never do it again, if you won't! Pinky-swear????
Grinder, Christians are too diverse a bunch to lump into one. And Liz has demonstrated her non-prude bona fides in other threads.
"Freeman - defenders of Prejean are invariably anti-gay marriage. Correlation = Causation in this case!"
Alex - this assertion is about as stupid as Garofalo insisting that Tea Parties are invariably about hating a black man.
"True enough. Also, they are incredibly defensive. Any time they are criticized for anything, they jump up and down and scream that their critics are "haters.""
Right... like calling Dark Eden that she isn't *really* upset by bad behavior, she "hates gays."
Who resorts first and firmly to calling their critics "haters?"
This is one reason it's almost funny to read Grinder and Alex on this... they don't own mirrors.
Right! We should all become Muslims. At least it would stop all the whinging about gay marriage.
Or we could recreate one of the "great" twentieth century atheist societies, where political whinging is treason.
You anti-Christian folks revel in the tolerance and freedom created for you by Judeo-Christian morality. Unfortunately, your entitlement mentality deludes you into thinking we are obliged to embrace your morality societally and abandon our own.
What's the slogan? "We're not as cruel as the other guys?"
Look, the only reason Christians aren't as bad as the Muslims these days is because you've been reined in by the Enlightenment. Left to your own devices, as you were before the 18th Century, and you're no different than the Muslims.
Christianity didn't create any freedom. Any freedom was wrested from the Christians, who have a thoroughly annoying habit of claiming authorship of anything good. You're a little like the Soviets used to be -- remember when they'd claim to have actually invented everything that emerged in the United States?
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- James Madison, 4th president of the U.S. and author of the Constitution.
Right... like calling Dark Eden that she isn't *really* upset by bad behavior, she "hates gays."
>>>
Dark Eden is a guy. I have the jumbly bits and everything.
Alex wrote: You prudes can't take back 300 years of prudery when it's convenient for you(aka the Carrie Prejean diddling herself tape). You make me sick!
Why should anyone who is offended as Prejean is savaged by gay activists and their consorts care about this tape? Does her conduct make your intolerance and incivility less reprehensible?
The Prejean deal is about political correctness and intolerance of other points of view by the gay left and their circus of whiners. Nothing more.
How stupid are you?
Look, the only reason Christians aren't as bad as the Muslims these days is because you've been reined in by the Enlightenment. Left to your own devices, as you were before the 18th Century, and you're no different than the Muslims.
>>>
You know who is responsible for the enlightenment right? Christians! You know who ended the Salem Witch Trials? Christians! You know some of the first scientists were Catholic monks.
Its funny that the very people who bend over backwards to make excuses for radical islam seem to think only the worst most extreme forms of Christianity count.
I also support the right of Prejean to say what she thinks without being attacked for her views.
Another one of my favorites, showing that Christians hate free speech. They think that they are entitled to say whatever they want to without being answered by their critics. In fact, free speech belongs to everyone, so when you speak you should expect to be answered.
But not Christians. They are fragile, defensive little babies who view real freedom as a threat.
One Christian sect I respect is the Westboro Baptists, who carry those "God Hates Fags" signs. Disgusting as they are, at least they are unafraid to express the essence of Christian thought, without any p.r. filter.
Alex is a troll.
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