September 18, 2009
"Even though I didn't win the crown that night. I know that the Lord has so much of a bigger crown in heaven for me."
We get crowns in Heaven? And will everyone be swanning around in bathing suits and high heels? It's at least as likely as white robes, harps, and flying.
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99 comments:
First!
As far as I am concerned, she can say anything.
wv = cutie pie
I always found the harps and wings view of heaven to be so shallow. i don't pretend to know what heaven might be like. But i doubt it is anything as pedestrian as we typically imagine.
That being said, she is merely echoing the idea that it is better to gather riches in heaven than on earth, albeit in a weirdly specific way.
Actually, this was a transcription error. She actually said 'a bigger crayon.'
Those skinny ones can be really difficult to hold when you are trying to make your letters.
Of course “[t]he crowd ate it up.” In heaven, they serve only the best margarine!
(Maybe the commercial is on YouTube?)
Ha!
When I see you in swimming suit and high heels, professor, I'll know it's hell.
Secondary sexual organs look like crowns in heaven.
Five crowns specifically.
Well if streets are paved in gold, then the head gear could be fashionable too. Or she may be refering to awards that are given out by the Judge himself for services to the Kingdom here on earth. So not all who find themselves in heaven will get the same rewards, although just being there is their gift for simply believing. I don't believe that Harps and wings are ever mentioned, but neither are Golf courses and what would heaven be without Golf
No high heels for me, but I will be wearing my speedos.
Hopefully Joseph N. Welch will approve.
Yes, let's take all metaphors and hyperbole seriously.
Seven heavens, but only five crowns? What a rip-off.
I believe the full context is that those who receive "crowns" (rewards) lay them all at the foot of the "throne" of the God of Heaven and Earth and Everything Else.
Using quotes not to minimize but to recognize that the Bible is written in language and style that connects with humans.
Oh yeah -- I am a bit surprised that you missed the crown thing in whatever religious upbringing you had Prof. You seem to be pretty well apprised of the basics.
wv tersh
John Tesch being short.
Seven heavens, but only five crowns? What a rip-off.
Agree. Not sure it is fair to make us wear the same crown more than once a week. Seven would be more appropriate.
Wonder if there is a petition we can sign to get it changed. I'll Google it and let you know what I find.
Yes, let's take all metaphors and hyperbole seriously.
If they're not real, I'm not going.
Living throughout eternity without proper head gear?
Yeah, don't think so.
This really is not a strange formulation at all if you're familiar with evangelicalism. It's not a reference to traditional, shallow imagery of heaven, it's a metaphor from 1 Corinthians 9:
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly..."
I think she was talking about her teeth.
She was plugging her dentist uptown in Heaven st.
If she goes to heaven and, for her, it's not heaven unless she has a crown, then it logically follows that she will receive a crown when and if she enters heaven.
Her insurance would not cover a bigger crown she wanted.
I can't believe -- actually, now that I think about it, I shouldn't be surprised -- that some ditzy blonde should have a greater, better, and smarter understanding than do all these brainic professors and lawyers and blog commenters who seem to take such things literally.
Even though this woman is from California, she obviously has lived in the South for a time or has relatives there. I live in Louisiana and can assure you that this statement is par for the course around here. So it is difficult to understand how anyone could feel that it is odd. We usually have to put up with far worse. That is why I feel there is little difference between Christians and Muslims.
And You, a Law Professor!
That is why I feel there is little difference between Christians and Muslims.
Agree. In fact, this Sunday my pastor will be giving a special head chopping sermon complete with demonstration. Should be interesting, just glad I don't have to clean up afterwards.
Mateo...Good point. The free gift of heaven by grace is a big evangelical doctrine. But there also are promises that courageous service has extra recognition, which goes along with the statements that Christ is a Commander of an army who is mighty in battle. The Commanders of Armies always give out Medals for valorious service in action against enemy forces. The young Prejean woman more than qualifies there.She certainly did not hesitate to obey the command that soldiers often hear from their Commander to "move out and draw fire".
Bissage said...
Of course “[t]he crowd ate it up.” In heaven, they serve only the best margarine!
(Maybe the commercial is on YouTube?)
Cedarford roars! As a kid I saw a SNL spoof of some (Imperial???) margarine commercial - women in crowns buttering other people's bread.
===============
As for Prejeans comments..ugh!
One of the problems of the Bible is that the earliest Greek, Aramaic versions - then most of the major translations (King James Bible) are replete with Lord-Leige- Prince-Subject verbiage.
And that much of Christianity is trapped in that language of crowns and social hierarchies as if they hungered to live under a monarchy after they die vs. a "heaven" based on a more modern social state.
The Christian version is about you apparantly doing little fun things but "adoring" various lords and nobility..perhaps getting your holy wafers buttered by beauty queens in crowns.
The Muslim virgin is Party Central...doing all the booze and drugs you were denied in life and banging virgins galore. "Hey, Maria...wassup!" "Oh, the usual. Staying free of all sins and vices, so don't ask!! Meanwhile, I'm just hoping for a Lord, or a shepard of this heavenly flock to come by so I can bow, and simply adore them..."
The Mormon version is you get your own planet!!
Even the Hindu version promises, if not heaven, that if you have led a good life, you get "upgraded" into something better. Like if you played killer tennis but weren't good enough for a college scholarship or the pros and had to do ROTC instead...next time around...maybe you come back as another Roger Federer or Sampras..or maybe a few screwups in a laudable life and you come back as a new Martina Navratilova....I guess major screwups come back as cows.
Carrie Prejean..When is her 15 minutes up?
Agree. In fact, this Sunday my pastor will be giving a special head chopping sermon complete with demonstration. .
LOFL
Still.
Nancy choked and I called her a liar.
But when Carrie choked .. people listened ;)
A harp, a hymn book and wings? Good god, what a swindle. I'm led to consider a different path. Heaven for climate, Hell for company."
Mark Twain
Seven heavens, but only five crowns? What a rip-off.
Agree. Not sure it is fair to make us wear the same crown more than once a week. Seven would be more appropriate.
Obviously two of the heavens are weekend heavens (one of them includes the golf course and a pool). Crowns would be far too formal for weekend heaven.
David, I'm a California native without Southern connnections and find that phrase quite familiar.
It is one of those phrases that can be called a "Christianism", a kind of word or phrase that gets a lot of use in Evangelical/Churchy circles. Sort of the "my reward in heaven."
California isn't one of them northeastern states who don't know what to do with religion after the first Great Awakening. It's the place where Fundamentalism might be said to have really taken root, and Pentecostalism got launched into the big time.
We're a very religious area, just not as culturally dominant about it. Whole lot of other stuff going on here.
All this to say, using Christianisms like that is certainly a California Evangelical thing too.
Presumably, Prejan is an evangelical protestant. I doubt the crown imagery is as symbolic as it should be.
You may be interested to know, however, that crowns were the traditional symbols of martyrs in Christian (primarily Orthodox) iconography. It affirms many typical themes in Orthodox and Catholic theology, (I have to emphasize the distinction because what Prejan is talking about is pretty weird as compared to the first 1500 years of Christian thought) humility leads to Glory, the last shall be first, sacrifice in the name of God, etc.
See for example: http://www.orthodox.net/ikons/edward-king01.jpg
So at least in terms of longstanding Christian terminology, her statement is a little off. But then again, that is what sola scriptura will get you.
"Mark Twain"
His "Captain Stormfield's Visit to Heaven" short story is a great perspective on heaven.
Basically, you get a crown if that's what you want. Most people do at first, cuz that's what they expect out of a heaven. Then they realize they can dress how they want, and the harps and crowns and such get left behind pretty quick. Except for special welcoming ceremonies, where a new soul would be disappointed not to see the familiar accouterments.
Crowns would be far too formal for weekend heaven.
Well duh!
Obviously the golf crown would be made out of a synthetic breathable fabric with a special pouch for spare golf balls, tees, and divot tool.
As for colors, nothing fancy or flashy just pastels or Earth tones because everyone knows that flashy colors & sun glinting off jewels are huge distractions on the golf course.
Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven
Will it be the same
If I saw you in heaven.
I'm going to have another commenter name and avatar in heaven.
David, I'm a California native without Southern connnections and find that phrase quite familiar.
I will cherish the old rugged cross
Till my trophies at last I lay down
I will cling to the old rugged cross
And exchange it one day for a crown
(didn't look up the exact wording, but the last line is right)
The reference to crowns in Heaven is from St. Paul.
This is a very common expression among Christians.
The weird thing is that people who decry cultural ignorance of foreigners would not understand something very basic in the view of tens of millions of their neighbors and fellow citizens.
I knew that getting a crown (yes, understood to be symbolic) was pretty basic Christian symbolism but I couldn't have said for sure where it came from.
Thanks to whoever posted the verses.
I think we are just snarking people.
some people just cant have any fun.
Crowns, and manses.
And will everyone be swanning around in bathing suits and high heels?
I, for one, intend to wear a smoking jacket and a fine pair of silk pants.
There are two different words for "crown" in Greek, folks. The crown of power is a diadem but the crown in this case is the wreath of olive leaves -- στÎφανον -- given to the victor (or any one who has run very well) in a race.
the crown in this case is the wreath of olive leaves -- στÎφανον -- given to the victor (or any one who has run very well) in a race.
Soooooooo, what you're saying is these crowns will not give us super hero powers?
Pffffffttttt, rip. off.
I'd really rather not be wearing high heels while swanning around in bathing suits. For one, that's negative manhood points. For two, bad ankles. For three, my rear is just fine without any elevation from high heels. ;)
Now, if we're talking flip-flops while lounging on a beach chair drinking a tall cool one... yeah. That would be heaven indeed. :D
What is special in Christian doctrine is that Christians are seen as brothers and friends of the Christ who himself remains a man and a God (The Son of man)and sits at his Fathers right hand (of Power)on a throne on which we are offered an equal place as a King and a Priest which is Jesus' role as a combined High Priest (of the priestly order of Melchisadek)and as the King reigning on the Throne of David. No other religion exalts men and women like that. It is the source of the "Individual" being valued and Women having an equal value in American tradition that has believed this view of men as seen from God's point of view in scripture, until recently.
What if heaven is clothing-optional?
i prefer a lovely tiara myself.
Ok, so the story goes like this: you go to Heaven, and St. Peter is there to, what? Check IDs? Let's say you're Hispanic, and your first name is Jesus. I've often wondered, is St. Peter going to ask for two pieces of ID?
Go ahead and take your tiaras with you, I'm bringing a sock.
WV: gosesse
An hispanic version of Jesus.
I'm happy for her that her faith provides her such comfort.
There is one beneficial thing that I have noticed about profound religious belief, it provides a bit of inoculation from the temptation to be too preoccupied with oneself.
"As there is birth, there is also death. As there is happiness, there is also sorrow. You've only to look around you, read your daily papers, to realize that we cannot - ANY of us - live with Life alone. There are times when we must face the loss of a loved one. Illness, accidents, tragedy, death, exist side-by-side with the wonderful experience of living.
Love, marriage, family, birth - these are ALL a part of the great pattern woven and interwoven until we see the colorful tapestry of Life itself - with its lights and shadows, its beginning, and its end.
We hope that you will continue to watch "The Guiding Light" so that you may see reflected the wonderful moments there are in living - as well as the tragic."
Rest in peace, Guiding Light.
January 25, 1937 - September 18, 2009
( http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203585004574393010349884606.html )
Do you think she honestly believes she's going to heaven? Whatever gets her through the day, but in the back of her mind she's got to know that all that awaits us at the end is the eternal darkness...
Fact is, she was persecuted for her religion. The question was asked like an inquisition, and she simply followed her personal views.
It's pretty lame that civil rights activists are intolerant of other views. they have set their cause back, but many of them fundamentally need some injustice to feel the street cred of oppressed with.
Carrie hasn't done anything impressive aside from deal with jerks without breaking down. That's actually pretty impressive these days. See: Sarah Palin
If folks had been nice to these people, they would be completely irrelevant instead of having whatever power they hold.
The idea of a crown in heaven is a familiar Biblical one among Christians. Harps and flying around not so much, really. Not that this would make much difference if the purpose of your post is to be condescending to that religious group.
Alex said...
"Do you think she honestly believes she's going to heaven?"
Alex, religion and spirit are so far from your concept of the world that you can not possibly understand why someone would believe this. Like most so called liberals you cling to materialism and a sense of moral superiority to erase doubts. Keep clinging, because if you ever let go you will be one lost puppy.
I was taught as a Catholic that the body that gets resurrected is the body you had on the healthiest day of your life....I always had questions about it. What's the sense of resurrecting the body, if the body can't have sex. Ergo, there's sex in heaven. But that raises other problems. Who wants to spend all eternity with their wife? The vow was only until death anyway. But if you're running around heaven trying to score doesn't that lead to problems of jealousy and rejection.....Aren't heaven and a corporeal existence mutually exclusive? There are more contradictions and paradoxes in heaven than there are in time travel. I suppose people of faith feel that God can work out the kinks, but then you have to worship an irrational God which presents other paradoxes.
Hurray for the biblically illiterate (meaning you Ann, not your quote.)
This thread reads like something you'd find at FARK.
David - I'm not delusional about what's going to happen to me when I die. I prefer to live my life without that delusion.
William - why should GOD have to work any kinks out? Isn't GOD almighty and all-knowing and all-powerful and perfect?
Well, good for you, Alex. You must feel very good about your purity.
miller - you are mistaken if you think I'm an atheist so I can trot about with a smug sense of superiority to believers. I just don't want to handicap myself by believing in the big unicorn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHTU-UWT_Ic
Allison Krauss and the Cox Family
Will there be any stars in my crown
When at evening the sun goeth down?
Will I wake with the blest
In those mansions of rest?
Will there be any stars in my crown?
Warning: bluegrass gospel
Prof A, I like your blog, but you sometimes indulge yourself with certain stereotypical responses in certain cultural areas (which is fine, it's your blog). Still, I've come to expect defense of feminism (by real or imagined opponents), guilt over racism (again whether real or extrapolated from the vapors), and condescension toward people of faith.
My question on this topic (without prejudgement of the maturity of Ms. Prejean's faith), given the actual limits of epistemology, the wonder of our sentience and complexity, and philosophical limitations of our current theory of cosmological origin (the Big Bang), do you believe there is a reasonable possibility of an intelligent first principle?
In other words, do you believe in God?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd3a7emZc_c
Johnny Cash doing "I Got Shoes"
(A Negro spiritual)
I got shoes
You got shoes
All God's children got shoes
When I get to heaven gonna put on my shoes and walk all over God's heaven
Awww, she's a good kid.
Let her be.
Pummeling her is like killing a mockingbird.
You may be interested to know, however, that crowns were the traditional symbols of martyrs in Christian (primarily Orthodox) iconography.
A "crown" (Gk. stephanos) is also the traditional liturgical headgear of a bishop of the Byzantine (both Orthodox and Catholic) tradition. And it is likewise the headwear used for the couple in the Byzantine marriage ceremony--when they are "crowned in marriage."
WV: paltract: "Have your friends been proselytizing again, leaving paltracts around?"
Ok, so the story goes like this: you go to Heaven, and St. Peter is there to, what? Check IDs?
I think he reads your name out of a big book. I want to say that's even semi-biblical (obviously not st. peter). Maybe revelations?
traditionalguy: The free gift of heaven by grace is a big evangelical doctrine.
Eh? It's absolutely central to all of Protestant Christianity, at least all of Protestant Christianity derived from Luther. "By grace alone, through faith" isn't remotely controversial or confined to the "evangelical" end of Christendom. What Ms. Prejean said would draw approving theological comments from my Lutheran pastor. Other aspects of her public life, not so much.
Verification word: nuftnes, the name of the lead character in "This is Spinal Tap" when you've smoked the necessary number of doobies.
I predict that young Carrie will always be respected by men and God, because she told the truth instead of hiding her faith. Religion does many times abuse people, but a scriptural faith lived out in unguarded moments, and boldly spoken, has always been a winner among men and God. And using its power is even seen by many authorities as so unfair that it must be banned.Read "Of Plymouth Plantations" by william Bradford for a true story of great accomplishments of young men and women of faith that were Carrie Prejean's age when they did them.
This is a great thread! So far.
Please, there is nothing worse on earth than someone with no sense of humor. So, let's not try to talk the Christians out of their beliefs (this does not preclude mocking some of them) and let's not try to convert the atheists (who are not immune to mocking either).
And, for God's sake will both sides lay off the agnostics???
the wreath of olive leaves
I thought it was laurel leaves.
Olives were a dime a dozen in Greece.
"believing in the big unicorn."
Ummm... I think you really need to check out what Christianity believes!
And, to be picky about theology on this whole topic, Christian theology holds to a new heaven and a new earth, the old will be renewed. Humans are not meant to live in heaven, rather we are meant to be part of the new earth. Heaven comes to us.
Though, talk about going to heaven is pretty common so it's certainly in a popular theology of sorts.
All the imagery is meant to suggest eternity is a real groovy place where things are nice and you find wholeness and peace, even if your life now is a bit crappy and you're not honored. Of course, then, the hope of that eternal perspective urges us to reach out to others and recognized them now, and to fight against that which works against freedom, and hope, and life.
The Mormon version is you get your own planet!
Ah, Cedarford, you’ve been drinking from the anti-Mormon spiked punch.
The Mormon version is that there are varying levels or degrees of glory - not just one heaven and one hell – and that a person will get all the glory they were willing to receive.
Its basically a ‘get what you want’ system.
So, if one accepts and lives by a little truth, they will get a huge return for that alone, and they’ll take a place with and where everyone lives by that truth also.
If one accepts and lives by a lot of truth, they will get a magnified return for that – and will take a place with and where everyone lives by a lot of truth.
If one knowingly stole, cheated, lied, and abused – they’ll end up with the crooks, cheats, liars, and abusers.
But the ‘planets’ line is an anti-Mormon simplification and perversion of a few Mormon beliefs: one that God and man both exist in the same space, another that God and man are different in degree of development but not different in type (acorn and oak), and the last that, at the end, this earth will be transformed back into its natural glorious state and be part of the space in which the aforementioned kingdoms exist.
As for wearing clothes, my California wife has stated that any heaven worth attaining will allow nudity and be properly heated for it.
@Joseph N. Welch 2:50
You sir, are a cad.
Paul Snively said...
"traditionalguy: The free gift of heaven by grace is a big evangelical doctrine.
Eh? It's absolutely central to all of Protestant Christianity, at least all of Protestant Christianity derived from Luther. "By grace alone, through faith" isn't remotely controversial or confined to the "evangelical" end of Christendom."
In fact, it is what all Christians believe--salvation is a gift--"by grace alone, through faith." The disputes arise when Catholics (and as far as I know, Orthodox and others) say that our response to the gracious gift of salvation matters. Do we respond to the promptings of grace and change our lives and do good for others, as the Lord commanded? Or not. Matthew 25 (sheep and goats) for example.
What a lot of folks don't understand about the Catholic Faith is that we believe it's all grace--our good works, saints, purgatory, Mass, etc. -- it's all different ways Christ's grace works in our lives to save us: "by grace alone, through faith."
Paul Snively...I agree with you of course. My protestant reformed tradition comes from John Knox, but all began with the feisty German monk standing up and posting his viewpoint on the Blog of his day.
Gillian Welch singing Red Clay Halo.
My understanding is that at least some of the people in heaven will be wearing bathing suits. Others will be wearing high heels.
I, of course, will be wearing an expression of extreme surprise.
Gillian Welch singing Red Clay Halo.
Wow! Love her voice. Thanks for the link!
Carrie hasn't done anything impressive aside from deal with jerks without breaking down. That's actually pretty impressive these days. See: Sarah Palin
Yeah and Nancy Pelosi gets all choked up because people had a party on the law on the Capitol.
wv frouties
French froot loops
"They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever."
Thanks, Mateo, for showing the proper context and meaning of what she said. It's discouraging how few people understand these things are are so willing and eager to mock them.
One further explanatory comment:
In Jesus' world, which was largely pagan, men most often competed for worldly honor and glory. (Think of the warriors of the Ancient Greece who fought for fame, with the greatest being fame that is remembered through the ages in songs and poems such as Homer's.) Jesus preached against that and for striving toward a higher morality not based on amoral violence on behalf of whatever tribe one belonged to. As I recall, Gertrude Himmelfarb wrote a book about how the Victorians successfully inculcated a Christian honor to replace worldly honor.
Harps and flying around not so much, really.
I think that came from Tom & Jerry.
all began with the feisty German monk
The Moravians are followers of Johann Hus of a century earlier.
Father Martin Fox...When googling Martin Luther, it turns out that the greatest scholar of Luther's life and theology was an Althaus, named Paul Althaus. What a small world.
I love that song with Krauss and the Cox family, kentuckyliz. I was going to post that but you beat me to it.
And they also do "I got shoes" - as does Mahalia Jackson, and I wouldn't be surprised if her version was where Cash, Krauss and the Cox family all first heard it.
Traditionalguy:
Ah, I thought you'd say it was someone named Fuchs!
Revenant: I, of course, will be wearing an expression of extreme surprise.
I hope to see you there, Rev.
I don't understand what the big deal is. Every preacher/minister uses this metaphor from the Bible. It's straight from your typical sermon about running the race.
Do they really sound like such idiots at church, you say? YES, they do. HOWEVER, if you entered that world you would sound like an equal idiot with your presumptions.
When I moved to the suburbs I started going to Church without completely divesting myself of my Los Angeles/San Fran vocabulary. I made an idiot of myself with regularity. They were very nice about it and I refrained from saying I thought Paul was a jackass.
I think Paul is pretty amazing, actually. One of my favorite people.
Ralph L, I spent 4 pleasant years with the Moravians. As humbly as possible, they took great pleasure in pointing out that fact you alluded to.
I miss the Lovefeast. And the Putz.
I don't want a harp. I am going to ask for a string bass!
Ann Althouse, now defending fucking retards.
Wait. Didn't this chick have tits?
I thought Althouse is supposed to condemn her then?
Ann Althouse, now defending fucking retards.
My god you're such a wingnut. Althouse is mocking her, not defending. But you in all your wingnut glory can hardly tell the difference.
Revenant: I, of course, will be wearing an expression of extreme surprise.
I hope to see you there, Rev.
I've always said that the real downside to atheism is that you can't look forward to saying "see, I told you so" after death.
The "I Got Shoes" version I first owned was Robert Shaw Chorale's version, on the Amazing Grace project. That's a great collection of American hymns and spirituals, beautifully done.
"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away." 1 Peter 5:4 (KJV)
The chief Shepherd is Jesus Christ. Oh, maybe you can mock that too.
My ancestors on my father's side were Moravians.
(On my mother's side, Methodists.)
A bigger crown and a nicer video camera: http://bit.ly/tu3j
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