Camille Paglia rages.
AND: She approves of Sarah Palin's use of the term "death panels":
As a libertarian and refugee from the authoritarian Roman Catholic church of my youth, I simply do not understand the drift of my party toward a soulless collectivism. This is in fact what Sarah Palin hit on in her shocking image of a "death panel" under Obamacare that would make irrevocable decisions about the disabled and elderly. When I first saw that phrase, headlined on the Drudge Report, I burst out laughing. It seemed so over the top! But on reflection, I realized that Palin's shrewdly timed metaphor spoke directly to the electorate's unease with the prospect of shadowy, unelected government figures controlling our lives. A death panel not only has the power of life and death but is itself a symptom of a Kafkaesque brave new world where authority has become remote, arbitrary and spectral. And as in the Spanish Inquisition, dissidence is heresy, persecuted and punished.
पोस्ट्स
३७० टिप्पण्या:
370 पैकी 1 – 200 नवीन› नवीनतम»And she an Obama supporter!
She is correct.
VW - obamarxist
So there!
I only read the Instapundit excerpt (I like to savor her writing over lunch or dinner) so far, and was pretty surprised by how suddenly everyone on the "tastemaker" end of the media boulevard is changing their tune about the clown car group we've recently put into power. Ed Koch was another one that comes to mind; he was pretty high on Barry & co. a short while ago.
Like Ms. Paglia, I find the condescension of these politicians' respond-in-generalities M.O. to be really tough to swallow. It's their job to know the details and what the hell is in the legislation they're sponsoring/supporting. And yet, turn to the big media talking heads and everyone else is in the wrong for deigning to ask pointed questions.
Losers, all.
word verification: the flatulent-sounding "phypel", which describes what's been coming out of our "leaders'" mouths of late ("Hey, did you hear Obama yesterday talking about health care? Man, what a phypel; I could practically smell it through the tv set!")
The bureaucracy required to institute and manage a nationalized health system here would be Byzantine beyond belief and would vampirically absorb whatever savings Obama thinks could be made.
Obama's not stupid enough to believe that national healthcare would actually save money, but he thinks we're stupid enough to believe it.
Has anyone had to deal with Social Security?
Byzantine if you fall off the normal track in any way. Unbelieveable form letters. Arbitray decisions with little -- and in some cases no - explanations provided.
You do not want the federal government managing health care. Period.
We are *not* like the rest of the developed world. That's not a bad thing.
WV - distsi
Dissed? Yes. Ditzy? Don't think so.
Socialism is an invincible religious belief. It rejects discussion, for the truth has been revealed. Historical failures do not beg their caution, but demand yet another attempt. Naysayers are, at a minimum, misinformed, but are more likely evil heretics.
Once you understand that socialists are true believers and not political pragmatists, the actions Paglia bemoans are easily explained.
Theirs is the one true faith; they will have no other gods before them. Liberty, for example, is a graven image, and one of the worst of this religion's many devils.
Obama's not stupid enough to believe that national healthcare would actually save money, but he thinks we're stupid enough to believe it.
Yet somehow the rest of the developed world manages to provide health care to their entire population at a lower cost (by a considerable margin) with equal or often better results by any objective standard while the U.S. struggles to provide health care to 85% or so of its population while spending 1/3 more of its GDP than the next highest spending country.
Who is stupid again?
Even though I had already read this article, when I started reading Althouse's post I thought for sure the author must be Rush. That Obama is making his supports sound like Rush in their criticism of his own policies speaks volumes on his abilities as President.
I keep hearing our life expectancy is far lower than other 1st world countries.
Last night, Lou Dobbs reported Sweden's is almost 81 and America is only 78.
I did some intertube research and found the life expectancy in Minnesota is 80.2 or 80.5.
I think that suggests the broad-based figures used to disparage American life expectancy and our health care should be examined more closely.
Paglia isn't an Obama supporter. She is mixed up old relic with a rapidly declining mind who's nonsense would never see the light of day if it weren't contrarian in nature. In other words, she isn't smart enough to run with the crowd she says she is part of.
P.S. Please don't tell Fox News I was watching another station.
wv = edunde
Yet the reality is that the GOP is so unpopular and in such disarray that Obama will still get all of his big socialist agenda passed AND get re-elected easily.
It's all over.
Jeez. We can't even debate health care without the obligatory anti-catholic remarks.
Garage I fixed this for you:
He or She is mixed up old relic with a rapidly declining mind who's nonsense would never see the light of day ....if they were not a member of Congress.
wv = unplamsh
The trouble with arbitrary decisions like that is there is yet another massive opening for corruption. When private firms are corrupted there is resort to the legal system and to the government. When the government itself is the corrupted one, there is no appeal, except to the corruption. Which always leads to political privileging to gain yet more power.
If we were in a situation where political corruption seemed at a low ebb, and there was constant and serious and non-partisan reaction against it I would be much more open to more government involvement in health care. But now? With these people in charge? With both sides of the aisle showing brazen favoritism for favored contributors? No way to more government involvement. Not this government. Not even considered until this government shows it takes seriously the inherent problems of government control.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. When Boxer gets worn out, he gets shipped off to the glue farm, while the acceptable pigs eat all the best portions from the trough.
Yet somehow the rest of the developed world manages to provide health care to their entire population at a lower cost...
Wow, so socialism really works better than freedom. OK why would we want to stop at health care? It's not even the most important thing - food, water, clothing, and shelter are more important than health care because you will die immediately without them. So clearly if we can't trust the private sector to provide health care we can't trust it to provide any of the more important necessities. And since, according to Freder, socialism is more effective and efficient than freedom, clearly we need the government to take over food production and distribution, housing production, clothing design and production, and so on. I mean look at the stellar job the government is doing educating the students in the government schools! Why wouldn't we want them to run ALL aspects of our lives if they do it cheaper and better than free people would?
After all, the socialist governments of Europe have released official statistics that PROVE that socialist governments do things better than free people. I guess the argument is over, huh?
Yet somehow the rest of the developed world manages to provide health care to their entire population at a lower cost (by a considerable margin) with equal or often better results by any objective standard while the U.S. struggles to provide health care to 85% or so of its population while spending 1/3 more of its GDP than the next highest spending country.
Run those numbers again -- on a PPP adjusted basis, the US government (and state governments) already spend as much on health care per capita as Japan, through Medicare, Medicaid, and SCHIP. The government already has the money, if we really want to try for cost-effective universal coverage. The problem is the effort to bring down costs is going to screw some people over (mostly patients), and, uh, they have the right to vote.
Yet somehow the rest of the developed world manages to provide health care to their entire population at a lower cost (by a considerable margin) with equal or often better results by any objective standard while the U.S. struggles to provide health care to 85% or so of its population while spending 1/3 more of its GDP than the next highest spending country.
What if we stopped subsidizing Europe's pharmaceutical research and military protection? What if they had to bear the FULL costs of everything like we do? Would their health care % of GDP still be lower then ours?
Basil, over at www.imao.com, makes an excellent point. Consider the following government-run disasters:
* Amtrak
* The quality of public schools
* The NEA funding of porn
* The DMV
* Oil for Food
* Paying farmers to not grow crops
* Student visas
* The TSA
* FEMA
* The IRS
...and you want this crowd to oversee your health care?
I have to go in and "consult" with some government counselor on how to address my mortality?!?!
Why doesn't that alone queer the deal for everyone but lefty loons?
The prospect is enough to give me quasms: my verification word.
"Yet somehow the rest of the developed world manages to provide health care to their entire population at a lower cost"
For all their efforts, spending cuts, and regulations, the UK NHS has the worst cancer care outcomes in the Western World.
But by all means, say YES to decline.
Paglia nails it. garage mahal = insult over reason.
WV=sting
Obama's not stupid enough to believe that national healthcare would actually save money, but he thinks we're stupid enough to believe it.
I certainly believe it. I bet national healthcare will save lots of money. Obama has said that maybe granny should just take an aspirin instead of getting a pacemaker. And an ice floe is even cheaper.
Paglia isn't an Obama supporter. She is mixed up old relic with a rapidly declining mind who's nonsense would never see the light of day if it weren't contrarian in nature. In other words, she isn't smart enough to run with the crowd she says she is part of.
So the moment a big liberal like Paglia stops supporting Obama, she gets thrown under the bus by garage. I tell you his type are truly scary, they are the ultimate extremists who will be in charge of the "purging squads". In a more evil reality, garage would be executing "traitors to the cause" day and night in some dark dungeon.
Paglia isn't a liberal.
Seriously, can Althouse ban this idiot garage once and for all? He is trolling incessantly!
And what is it with you guys with all these doomsday paranoid fantasies? Good God.
Seriously, I'm finding every day that I have to endure trolls like Titus & garage make it harder to come back here. I think I'm not the only one.
Althouse - please pay attention!
the UK NHS has the worst cancer care outcomes in the Western World.
The UK spends about a third of what the U.S. does on health care. Care to provide some figures for France, Sweden, Norway, Germany or Denmark?
@AJ:"I think that suggests the broad-based figures used to disparage American life expectancy and our health care should be examined more closely."
When you factor out US homicides and accidents the differences are statistically insignificant.
I'm tired of getting flogged with Nordic country stats.
Please make the troll stop!!!!
Did any of you read through the comments following her article?
Absolute viciousness. The first time I read a CP article was on abortion where she opined that, while she was still pro-choice at heart, she felt the pro-life movement had a more sophisticated and mature argument. Her claim that the pro-choice's argument was all based on selfishness met outright vitriol from her commentators.
She always seems to give both sides even keel, but as she appears to be a liberal going of the reservation, she seems to invite incredible vicious attacks.
WV "bungsk" - definition: bung originating in Russia.
Good God.
And so there's still hope. Amen.
wv - plierega. Royal exercise?
Freder - you are stupid. And a communist. Who typed in the WV for you?
WV - sonofself
The UK spends about a third of what the U.S. does on health care.
And the worst cancer outcomes is a result. But why get in the way of a good talking point!
Good god! Make the trolls stop, PLEASE Althouse!!!!!!
Pogo said
"the UK NHS has the worst cancer care outcomes in the Western World.
Freder said:
"The UK spends about a third of what the U.S. does on health care. Care to provide some figures for France, Sweden, Norway, Germany or Denmark?".
Did you skip a sentence?
Does the question have anything to do with your statement or mine?
Obama is trying to blitzkrieg the legislature, same as he did with the greased lightning (the grease came from all the pork) of his bailout. His MO is to hit with enormous tracts (the current one is over a thousand pages) and then he tries to ram it through before the ink has dried and before anyone has read it. He's got a majority and is using it to advance his national socialist policies as far as he can go, counting on the media to whitewash his actions, as he rolls over America like a giant paint-roller, smashing all dissent, as he goes to affect his "change."
Hitler used the same tactics. They called it blitzkrieg, or lightning war. Obama is really good at this, and it's going to be close to impossible to stop him. Maybe the best we can do is hope that he gets stalled in the winter, until a counterattack can be mounted, and at least some of us can read his latest blitzkrieg attack on American institutions.
Paddy O. said...
The trouble with arbitrary decisions like that is there is yet another massive opening for corruption. When private firms are corrupted there is resort to the legal system and to the government.
Fat lot of good resort to the legal system will do you.
Paglia isn't a liberal.
Igor, the creature thinks! It speaks its own thoughts!! Quick, shoot it before the contagion spreads!!!
Maybe the best we can do is hope that he gets stalled in the winter, until a counterattack can be mounted, and at least some of us can read his latest blitzkrieg attack on American institutions.
Good analogy. Hopefully he'll get bogged down in the "American winter".
When you factor out US homicides and accidents the differences are statistically insignificant.
So we spend a third more and cover 15% less of our population to get statistically insignificant different results. Just brilliant!
Besides, who decided that homicides and accidents are not public health issues? Aren't people who die in accidents or from homicide just as dead, and aren't those deaths just as--if not more--preventable--as those who die from heart attacks or cancer?
I happen to think Obama will succeed, but that the nation will fail. There will be increasing government control. Then there will be threats of secession and blood. Revolution is already in the air.
But the Democrats think that's just crazy talk, and we'll all be sipping lattes at a cafe come next fall.
Me? I'm thinking about the Republic of Texas, one nation, under God, indivisble..
Besides, who decided that homicides and accidents are not public health issues? Aren't people who die in accidents or from homicide just as dead, and aren't those deaths just as--if not more--preventable--as those who die from heart attacks or cancer?
Moron - what does health care have to do with gang bangers murdering each other?
Me? I'm thinking about the Republic of Texas, one nation, under God, indivisble..
You're gonna have to deal with the lefties in Austin first.
The short version of all this crap:
1)American Health care is broken
2) Someone needs to fix it
3) Obama wants to do it
4) Lots of Americans don't want him to for very loudly stated reasons
5) Economies of scale work for Walmart - not the Feds. Walmart drives prices down, the Feds drive prices up - non starter
6) Obama's rationale fails from an economic standpoint, an efficency standpoint and a humanitarian standpoint.
Basically it's just coming off as a baldfaced grab for power...
"Besides, who decided that homicides and accidents are not public health issues?"
Exactly.
The state will deem more and more and more aspects of our lives once considered private to be "public health issues".
And demand control over them, exactly as I stated. It's inevitable.
Freder:
You'll have to resign yourself to the fact that you live in a country that likes, guns, drugs, and fast cars. When the populace can't have the aforementioned they get suicidal.
wv = sleehole
Freder's statements are true. We DO spend more to deliver care to 85% of the population than any other country, etc.
The problem with the "every other developed country does it" argument is that the U.S. is NOT every other developed country. We are unique in our combination of physical size and large population. We span a continent larger than Europe, with a population nearly as large. There is NO other country on the face of the Earth remotely comparable to our unique combination of attributes. To compare us to France, Germany, Japan, Canada, etc., is not to compare apples to oranges. It is to compare a grape to a watermelon.
Europe has a patchwork of very different medical care systems. Several of them, such as my favorite, the French, are worthy of study and analysis in terms of what they may offer us. But in United States terms, the French system, for example, would be a health care system for the State of California. Not a bad idea in itself (good luck getting anything done in dysfunctional California these days), but NOT necessarily a template for a national system.
Even the European Union has not seriously attempted to rationalize health care across the Continent. Health care is recognized as a universal right, but in Europe there is no universal system, only a collection of national systems, some rather decentralized, such as the German. I expect further cross-border harmonization to occur, but no one expects or wants a totally new, built from scratch health system for all of Europe. And no one in their right mind would want to legislate it in three weeks.
We need to do what is right for the United States of America, not the mythical "rest of the developed world." I agree SOMETHING has to be done, because of the many ills Freder points to. But I agree with Paglia that the current proposals are an absurd, incomprehensible mess.
I accept a number of things on faith. A lot of people do. This just shouldn't be one of them.
Then there will be threats of secession and blood. Revolution is already in the air..
TEH BLOOD OF THE LIBRETY TREE MUST FLOW WITH ALL THE LIE-BRULS! WAKKE UP AMURKA1
Paglia = Stupid twit.
Anyone who pays attention can see the basic premise of the health care plan in general is. A) To add another option to the table that is less expensive B) Stop insurance companies from descriminating based on preexising conditions.
What exactly the plan will be is being hammered out. And how it affects the medical establishment, Big Pharma and Insurance companies is to be seen.
The problem is the GOP and Republcans don't believe any of it and they think we are becoming a communist country with death panels. It's absurd. it is especially absurd because Insurance companies right now today will not cover people with pre-existing conditions therefore creating it's own 'panel' that leads to financial ruin and possibly death.
Obama's plan is to replace Insurance company decisions with that of doctors who are in a position to know better because they are not thinking of the bottom line.
If Frederson had his way the gummint would never release murderers to murder again, based on the canard that it's a health issue. It's enough to make a liberal cry. Or at least do a double-take.
Did you skip a sentence?
Does the question have anything to do with your statement or mine?
Absolutely it does. You pick one statistic from the country with what is widely recognized as having the worst health care system (and also chooses to spend the least on health care) in all of Europe to condemn "socialized medicine" as though it is indicative of health care in all of Europe. Of course it is not. As a matter of fact and statistics, the U.S. by any subjective measure does a mediocre job in health care (i.e., it is in the middle of the pack when compared against countries of similar wealth). Yet it spends more of its GDP (17%+) on health care than the next closest country (France at about 11%) with apparently absolutely nothing to show for it.
We are apparently doing something very wrong.
Good one Matt - a doctor on the government dole will make a better decision.
Your naivete is charming, but weak.
WV - scalind - definition - to diminish quality by giving services to illegal aliens. Our health care system was not broken until Obama included scalind.
Oops, that of course should be objective measure
@Matt:
"Anyone who pays attention can see the basic premise of the health care plan in general is. A) To add another option to the table that is less expensive.."
Anyone who pays attention can see that no federal program is "less
expensive".
No proponents of federal car ever bring up Massachusetts' or Tennessee' state programs as small scale examples of how things should work.
wv = libflautus
Of course she's a liberal. She gushes over Obama's worldwide apology for the sins of Amerikkka tour. That sounds like a liberal to me.
However she does stray from the rigid liberal orthodoxy on some issues and that brings out the leftist goon squad who cannot abide any variation from the left's strict fascist groupthink.
It is endemic to the left to see only flaws. Their adolescent utopian vision demands that they obsess over any perceived imperfections and thus they hunt down and viciously attack any heretics.
Fearing death panels at the hands of these people with unchecked power is entirely reasonable as history has shown that they don't stop with death panels but create death squads and gulags.
Anyone who doesn't see Obama or Pelosi as capable of this behavior, given the right circumstances, simply is profoundly ignorant of both history and human nature.
@Matt
You get today's first prize for glibness (glibocity? glibnicious?) by boiling down the entire affair into to 2 points that are dubious at best.
I'm all for the federal government stepping in and expanding Medicare to cover those not picked up do to pre-existing conditions. As long as it also allows national competition between health care companies and includes both tort reform and a panel review to weed out frivolous lawsuites. Both of those things will drive the cost down and will cost a drip in the bucket to just TRY compared to what Obama is pushing.
Why not take a measured approach and try these things before running higgildy-piggildy (thank you Bloom County) into this morass of unintended consequences? There are supporters of those measures on both sides of the isle, but the Democratic leadership in both chambers won't let them out of committee. How does that strike you for "democratic"?
WV "yinest" - definition: adv. to have or possess the most yin in a given group. See yangest.
I saw this article earlier linked at Drudgre and read it. Pretty powerful stuff.
Matt - for a stupid twitt, she sounds smarter than you. You hammer out the detaisl of exactly the plan will be before you vote on it so everyone knows what they're voting for.
Obama's plan is to replace Insurance company decisions with that of doctors who are in a position to know better because they are not thinking of the bottom line. Oh, wonderful. You left out the part where politically influenced government bureaucrats replace the insurance companies.
More Paglia - You can keep your doctor; you can keep your insurance, if you're happy with it, Obama keeps assuring us in soothing, lullaby tones. Oh, really? And what if my doctor is not the one appointed by the new government medical boards for ruling on my access to tests and specialists? And what if my insurance company goes belly up because of undercutting by its government-bankrolled competitor? Face it: Virtually all nationalized health systems, neither nourished nor updated by profit-driven private investment, eventually lead to rationing.
Me? I'm thinking about the Republic of Texas, one nation, under God, indivisble..
Please, and when you go, take the rest of the former Confederacy with you. You have been nothing but leeches on the rest of the decent, hard working Americans for the last hundred forty-four years.
"You pick one statistic from the country with what is widely recognized as having the worst health care system (and also chooses to spend the least on health care) in all of Europe to condemn "socialized medicine" as though it is indicative of health care in all of Europe."
No.
I picked a major statistic regarding diseases people care about that demonstrates your statement ("the developed world manages to provide health care to their entire population at a lower cost (by a considerable margin) with equal or often better results") to be the utter bullshit.
Please, and when you go, take the rest of the former Confederacy with you. You have been nothing but leeches on the rest of the decent, hard working Americans for the last hundred forty-four years.
Damn those leeches and their stubborn insistence to provide for themselves!
R-A-T-I-O-N-I-N-G
Can one of you that supports this abysmal attempt at a national program please explain the math for me?
1)From the proponents own oft-voiced numbers, there are approximately 40 to 50 million uninsured sob stories out there.
2) There are a finite number of doctors, nurses, hospitals, etc.
3) Adding 40 to 50 million to those already actively participating in insured health care will lead to...?
???
Is there an interplanetary arc of doctors and nurses in suspended animation just awaiting The One to call it home?
WV "garocc" : definition - noun, a small crocodile used to strangle someone who's gotten seriously behind on their vig
"Please, and when you go, take the rest of the former Confederacy with you."
There may in fact be nowhere to go where liberty is held as highly as it was with our founders. At least not until, like all other socialist attempts in human history, this experiment fails, and some new nation finds liberty worth trying.
I agree, we may be totally screwed, for generations. But people are pretty pissed off, and violence is often not far behind such sentiments.
What's this "WV=" (or "VW=") stuff?
Dagnabbit, you kids and your intertubes!
3) Adding 40 to 50 million to those already actively participating in insured health care will lead to...?
???
It will lead to 3rd world style health care for all of us, which is exactly what the socialists want. Basically it's morally unjust that I get to have gold-plated health care and someone else doesn't even have insurance. So things must be made more "equitable" by bringing me down. I don't know what you call that, but I call it Communism.
@EDH
It's a game. You have to type in a word verification in order to post. Those people are using WV to denote that the following word is the one they had to use to post, then adding a fun definition that's funny for fun's sake.
The one for this post, for instance, is
WV "fatinew" - definition: a 20 lb newborn
Damn those leeches and their stubborn insistence to provide for themselves!
Again, just like Pogo, statistics will prove to be the death of you. If you will check you will discover that every single state of the former Confederacy receives more Federal tax dollars back than they pay out. And that doesn't even include defense and DOE spending in those states. You will also notice a disproportionate number of military bases in the former Confederacy--including the largest Navy and Army bases in the world.
The refreshingly plain-spoken philosophy professor John Holbo frames the Death Panel and rationing discussion in the most clear way I've seen.
The conservative "Death Panel" argument asks us to suppose that the government won't pay for your procedure, and because the government won't pay for your procedure, they've essentially condemned you to death.
Under the current system of course, the government will not pay for the procedure. Are you following this?
Under all of these proposals, anyone can pay for the procedure themselves, just as now, either out of pocket or through private insurance.
Put another way, if the government not paying for your treatment is a death sentance, then the government death panels have already condemned us all to death, by refusing to pay for our treatment. That's a silly way to talk of course, but its the way Palin (and Althouse) are talking.
What is the smart conservative response to this?
@Alex
I call it central-planning socialism. Communism is the removal of nearly all private property and a different animal than socialism, in which you can own private property...sorta...in most cases...for a while...
WV "hysticku" definition: loosing one's mind enough to seek out a katana and poke the nearest person
Obama believes he can cut government expeneses on health care by denying it to your kids and grandparents.
Here's an article where Obama questions the need for a hip replacement ... for his own grandmother.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aGrKbfWkzTqc
Nut quote: "“The chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health- care bill out here.”
Obama questions the care provided by you and me for his own family! How do you think he's going to decide when it's time for your mother to have a hip replacement? He questions whether he'd give his own grandmother a new hip to ease her pain.
He's sick and tired of paying the bills of the "chronically ill." He wants to give them the blue (suicide) pill.
We can't let people like Obama have power over these decisions.
There may in fact be nowhere to go where liberty is held as highly as it was with our founders.
Yes, I always am always astonished by those who held liberty in such high regard that almost a third of the population were slaves.
"you will discover that every single state of the former Confederacy receives more Federal tax dollars back than they pay out."
Exactly.
So why foist an even larger boondoggle on us, if you already can't keep taxation-spending fair?
"Under all of these proposals, anyone can pay for the procedure themselves, just as now, either out of pocket or through private insurance"
Bullshit.
Medicare patients cannot pay out of pocket for that which is not covered. Doctors cannot offer it, if they also see Medicare patients.
What a death counselling session is meant for is to tell a patient it's time to stop doing investigatory assessments, because they are too old. That is exactly what will happen, except the easier way will be like in Medicare, by simply defunding it entirely, rather than one at a time.
Just like Canada and the UK.
Alex, Althouse addressed the troll issue several months ago. It's up to you to man up and scroll on by, otherwise you become part of the problem.
"wibever"
Hookers procured by cell phone
(Not that I've ever done that).
Just like Canada and the UK.
Do you even know what you are talking about?
@Pogo:
"..What a death counselling session is meant for is to tell a patient it's time to stop doing investigatory assessments, because they are too old. That is exactly what will happen, except the easier way will be like in Medicare, by simply defunding it entirely, rather than one at a time.
Just like Canada and the UK."
Better yet, look at the Netherlands for the shape of things to come in this area.
I think that is what BO has in mind.
Obama's plan is to replace Insurance company decisions with that of doctors who are in a position to know better because they are not thinking of the bottom line.
And I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
DADvocate
I guess I am not understanding Paglia's view when she says:
And what if my doctor is not the one appointed by the new government medical boards...
Most likely if someone has a doctor they probably have insurance already. So why would they be losing their doctor? It is only an uninsured person in this case who might lose their doctor if they choose to go with government run option. But that is they might lose them. And if anything they could now get less expensive care. It's not really a well thought out argument by Pagli because it is hypothetical.
As far as if their insurance goes belly-up well... that's capitalism. Companies come and go all the time. If one goes away then just get another. I don't see how care would be any less.
At The End Your Enemy Decides
At the end of your life, the ultimate nightmare:
Your fate in the crosshairs of a death-head "counselor's" stare.
This is the bowdlerized version of what I'd really like to write and what all the beautiful/correct/perfect people know to be true while simultaneously making it beyond the pale to express.
Also, at least if insurance companies deny you, you can still go off and pay for coverage. Not so everywhere.
I love how people say that those who don't like this plan are just making up this idea that it is going to lead to single payer when OBAMA and MANY other democrats are ON RECORD saying just that.
Paglia has always been a traditionalist with a classical education and a very wide world view. She was a classical liberal in her day and has enjoyed a career of telling the truth from known facts in a provacative style. Therefore she can never accept the Obama style. The method of operation for Obama and friends is first dependent upon a media control allowing him to make up fantasy facts and throw in a Crisis of opportunity that confuse voters until they acquiesce in the Smile of the harmless facist dictator offering to solve the crisis in exchange for power over us.IMO the fight for men's minds this August over nationalizing healthcare has been lost by Obama. He desparately needs a win for his sponsors. The Clinton/Soros/Internationalist axis that anointed Obama for a job has long since quit seeing Nations as relevant. They see no borders but do see Money/Credit flowing around the globe seeking cheap labor and energy supplies for a kickback. The USA has become an inconvenient obstacle to their system because we still expect American control over our own labor relations and energy supplies. Obama was their picked candidate to dilute/destroy our will to govern ourselve under a Constitutional form of government. He has failed. his only chance to beat us now is the Cap and Trade World Tax. Will Sarah Palin also be our point person in that fight for men's minds? Stay tuned.
If you will check you will discover that every single state of the former Confederacy receives more Federal tax dollars back than they pay out.
No, you won't. That's simply not true. Blue states receive more per capita in Federal on average than red states (including DOE) when you zero out defense. Which leads us to:
You will also notice a disproportionate number of military bases in the former Confederacy--including the largest Navy and Army bases in the world.
Yes. Yes, you will. Because they're actually welcome there.
WV = "mitair." AF1's new moniker in 2012.
Shanna
Well which is better; an insurance company seeing that you have a pre-existing condition and deciding you cannot be covered? Or a doctor who tries to find a way to cut costs and has a patient go to one place to get all of their care versus five locations to get a, b, c, d and e done?
Yes, doctors see the bottom line too but not at the cost of them making a profit or losing a profit at the expense of the patient. Insurance companies do not care about patients. They only care about profit. You know that. And it has to change.
Freder - Yet somehow the rest of the developed world manages to provide health care to their entire population at a lower cost (by a considerable margin) with equal or often better results by any objective standard while the U.S. struggles to provide health care to 85% or so of its population while spending 1/3 more of its GDP than the next highest spending country.
Leave aside "the rest of the world" for a moment - huge differences in culture and demographics ensure that importing a solution that seems to work splendidly in Sweden or Japan will have very different results here.
Let's focus on reality here in America: What Obama is proposing is to have the government provide *x* to 40 million Americans who currently do without while doing nothing to reduce the use of *x* among the rest of the population. At the same time, he'll reduce our overall national expenditures on *x* without rationing. Does this seem remotely possible or even logical?
If *x* was something else, say, vacuum cleaners or dry cleaning or something, it would seem completely absurd. But somehow, since we're talking about healthcare, all the above supposedly makes sense.
Surely even you don't believe that we can pay for all these goodies by cutting "waste and inefficiency"?
A spasm of quasms may lead to libflautus and tangy phypels with a particular burning effervescence, and occasionally, the appearance of mossy bungsk oozing from the sleehole.
Not to mention the potential for clards as a result.
(wv: clards, a scaly rash arising from prolonged episodic bungsk around the sleehole and inner groin)
(wv: clards, a scaly rash arising from prolonged episodic bungsk around the sleehole and inner groin)
If the clards migrates to the taint you're in some deep kimshi
Every post about Camille Paglia seems to follow the same pattern:
(1) Paglia is really, really mad at liberals! (Or complimentary to conservatives.)
(2) Someone points out: and she's a liberal!
Freder is from Sweden...
which might be slightly more populated than Hoboken-so it's a a tad less complicated for them.
What might be some of the "extra" health care "costs" to the US GDP?
Let's see some of the best research and development is done where?
Well Harvard, Princeton, they have these HUGE labs that are in existence because so far this little dirty thing called PROFIT has been allowed to fund that.
Frontier breaking discoveries that YES! the rest of the world benefits from-guys being lab rats because my gawd they might be Capitalist Pig Dogs-and the Capitalist Pig Dog Companies that contribute the funds.
Now so far Big Pharma thinks they can get away with an 80 billion bribe...but really, how long is that going to last?
And-if you happen to be 2% of the population that has some rare genetic disorder.......
Well you cost too much.
[And, remember P-R-O-F-I-T is the new dirty word.]
Is Freder actually Cookie? They keep bringing up slavery. Why not throw in a dead Indians reference, too? You are sure up to date on your hatefulness, Freder. And you sure love you some socialism, which has only worked out well for all involved.
WV - pitsh - what you won't be able to take without permission from the gubmit once Freder rules.
Every post about Camille Paglia seems to follow the same pattern:
(1) Paglia is really, really mad at liberals! (Or complimentary to conservatives.)
(2) Someone points out: and she's a liberal!
Ding! Another troll. He obviously didn't read her article where she bashes GW without mercy and spouts praise on Obama's foreign trips. Paglia has dared challenge the orthodoxy, and must be thrown under the bus.
Think the answer to America's problems is bigger government? Swedish Finance Minister Anders Borg has seen the result up close and says it's not pretty for the economy or investors.
I find it amazing that as our leftists keep citing European socialist models, the Europeans themselves are moving away from it. Are they all that cognitive dissonant?
Anyone who attempts to use life expectancy or infant mortality as a metric to evaluate the quality of health care is most certainly not an epidemiologist. Until you disaggregate relevant portions of the population and compare those against similar populations you are literally comparing apples and oranges (or in this case Americans with Swedes). It is the heterogeneity problem. Epi principle: you have to compare consist numerators and denominators.
In terms of health care outcomes, where I propose the appropriate metric is five and ten year survivability following medical intervention, the Lancet Oncology Journal last August published the results of cancer rates. The US leads in recovery from Breast and prostate cancers.
Finally, if you pulling your medical arguments from Google, please switch to Pub Med because Google only get 60% of the pub med literature.
Pogo said...
"Socialism is an invincible religious belief."
and that dear Lord pretty much sums up this dreary thread full of bullshit and "I have no idea but I know what I know" stupidity.
Honest to God, some of you have no brains. None.
Anders Borg is just another American-style assimilationist!
(wv: "ferbre", a fur-trimmed undergarment worn on women's chests)
Honest to God, some of you have no brains. None.
In the big-picture scheme you obviously have no desire to change hearts and minds. Otherwise you wouldn't engage in ad hominem attacks constantly.
@Matt
"Insurance companies do not care about patients. They only care about profit."
For the love of God please, please tell me what makes you think the government gives a shit about individual citizens. I have several friends who went through the VA that will tell you otherwise. I have relatives on Medicare that will tell you otherwise.
There is no motivation whatsoever for the government to provide good service. At least at a for-profit, they have a *gasp* profit-motive. If your side would simply drop the state boundaries and let health insurance companies compete nationally for customers, the costs would plummet and there would be at least some margin of motive to take care the individual.
Neither the private sector nor the government is going to treat you like your momma, but the government is sure as hell bent for leather to try and take the job of your nanny.
WV "milis" - def: expletive used to clarify a question, such as, "Whatchu talkin' 'bout, milis?"
Every post about Camille Paglia seems to follow the same pattern:
(1) Paglia is really, really mad at liberals! (Or complimentary to conservatives.)
(2) Someone points out: and she's a liberal!
(3) And somebody else claims : no, she isn't!
(vw : somard - and some are soft)
Alex said...
'It will lead to 3rd world style health care .. exactly what the socialists want. .. be made more "equitable" by bringing me down .. but I call it Communism."
i LOVE it when Alex posts. So many targets. So many arrows....
\
ahh Alex, communism and socialism aren't the same things. why do you bring it up?do you know what the terms mean or did you just steal it off Faux Noise.
Again demonstrating that the unwashed and uninformed mind is and will alays be our greatest threat.
Well which is better; an insurance company seeing that you have a pre-existing condition and deciding you cannot be covered? ...
Yes, doctors see the bottom line too but not at the cost of them making a profit or losing a profit at the expense of the patient. Insurance companies do not care about patients. They only care about profit. You know that. And it has to change.
Matt, honestly you just sound very naive to me. Doctors are going to act in their best interests. Not that they aren’t wonderful people individually (some of them at least), but they are not going to see patients just out of the goodness of their heart. Even if they wanted to (they can always dedicate some time but I mean by and large), they are subject to overhead, insurance of their own, etc... They have to make a profit too.
When the government is in charge of medicine, it will not be the doctors making the decision, it will be the government and there will be no changing insurance companies, no appeals, no higher authority. You think the government won’t make decisions based on cost? Have you been LISTENING to Obama? He is so blatant I am amazed that people are just ignoring it!
The doctors will be told what is reimbursed, and what they can be paid, etc, etc,, and they will do it. They will have no choice.
"communism and socialism aren't the same things."
Yes; in the former, totalitarianism is imposed by revolution, but in the latter, totalitarianism results from a national vote.
communism and socialism aren't the same things
And what, pray tell, is the effective difference? Communism is simply socialism enforced brutally.
Paglia is what a liberal used to be.
Regarding Death Panels:
Megan McArdle, posting as Jane Galt a few years ago, pointed out the following pattern that repeats over and over:
1) Liberals/Progressives propose initiative X.
2) Conservatives scream about how passing initiative X will lead to consequence Z
3) Liberals/Progressives say 'No way will X lead to Z, we're not talking about Z, nobody wants Z, it will never happen, you conservative retreads are out of your mind'
4) X passes.
5) A few years go bye.
6) Z occurs. Liberals/Progressives say that Z is reasonable and anyone who doesn't think so is a retread.
http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/005244.html
If Stalin frowns and bangs his fist, it's communism.
If Stalin smiles and hugs the children, it's socialism.
Paglia is what a liberal used to be..
It isn't that Paglia disagrees with other liberals. You probably don't ready any liberal blogs, but they rarely agree on anything. That's their weakness: it's like herding cats. It's that Paglia makes the most patently absurd arguments, because like I say, she has nothing upstairs to argue with, therefore she has to make a mockery of herself to get noticed.
Hey, look who figured out how to type in the verification word - our own little old tax dodger hdhouse. And, as always, he types made up words in mixed up cases. He is just ever so special.
Hey hdh, what is "alays"? And you used a \ between paragraphs - why?
Ok, remember, old timer, as you were taught back in the late 1800s, you should start a sentence with an uppercase letter. Those are the big ones. Remember? I'm sure you do. Now be patient, your attendent will come by soon and change your diaper.
WV - policu - what the state will do when the commie Nazi socialists take over. And yes, hdh, Nazis were socialist, too. You love Nazis, right? Because you are one? Isn't that a good boy...
Garage said:
"Libs don't think alike."
LOL. LMAO.
The majority of vocal libs are doctrinaire taxeaters who want more and more stuff from the taxpayers. IMHO natch.
wv - rexcis [the king, that's me,declares]
Social Security-
Bankrupt.
Medicare-
Bankrupt.
US Government-
Buying it's own notes on the market, umm you got me..
Banks got bigger, they ended up with-
Bail outs.
Textile Indutry unionized-
Gone.
Car and auto unionized-
Dying.
All kinds of goodies for unionized nurses in this package like paid work leave to go learn to take up some of what the doctors who refuse to unionize, and who might quit?
Means health care about to get heap big shitty....
word verification:
noninfuc
You probably don't ready any liberal blogs, but they rarely agree on anything.
I think I know what you mean...kind of like how the People's Front of Judea couldn't stand the Judean People's Front, right?
make that-
textile ^Industry^
Oh and grants for more diversity in nursing.
Because, of course we all know nurses are a bunch of old white guys....
[wv:unsio, nunsio I think I had an Uncle Nunsio...use to go collect "dues" from people...]
"You will also notice a disproportionate number of military bases in the former Confederacy--including the largest Navy and Army bases in the world."
A USMA grad (from Texas, incidentally) once told me that this is so as a direct result of the War of the Rebellion. Garrisons to see to it that such things didn't happen again.
I usually disagree with you, but I'm actually appalled and dismayed at your bigotry. And there's a Hell of a lot of graves containing soldiers who would look at your attitude of "fuck 'em, let 'em leave" and say "Now hold on just one damned minute!" Hating Southerners today because they held slaves 150 yrs ago is pretty idiotic. Consistency demands that you hate essentially every civilization that's ever existed.
TW: pudsquo. The status quo of the usual enlightened lefties acting like puds.
And note that I prefer TW (Turing word) to VW or WV. It makes me seem smarter.
TW: morshegu. But I'm not smart enough to do anything with this.
"I don't want some government death panel denying me coverage that I don't have anyway! Stay away from my medicare, socialist thugs!"
Instapundit and Althouse, two tenured professors at public universities, railing about socialism. They have no shame.
"I don't want my taxes going to uninsured people! I'd rather have my taxes pay for emergency room care for the indolent! I'd rather continue to pay higher premiums year after year and ultimately go bankrupt when my insurance company denies me coverage on the basis of some old record of mine they dug up! The status quo is awesome. Let's be sure to proactively oppose any effort at reform before knowing the details of any plan, and let people like Chuck Norris and Sarah Palin pick out innocuous elements of legislation and make them seem terribly sinister and evil, while stoking the rage of paranoid seniors terrified at whole swathes of modernity."
No shame. No brains. Just a torrent of ignorant nonsense.
Freder-
It's about population density The South has more room for big Navy and Air Force bases so that they could do these little things called-
EXERCISES...
Let's see in Sweden you get about enough of an army up to go flounce around the Pope...maybe.
You know just in case Switzerland can't get up anymore, to wear the tights.
Freder-
If you're really good maybe Putin will let you keep your-
Lingonberries.
"pick out innocuous elements of legislation and make them seem terribly sinister and evil,"
Many of the great unwashed, those average joes you sneer at, have learned to mistrust 'innocuous legislation', for it often uses pleasant-sounding words by which to extract more money, reduce liberty, and chain our children and theirs to the whims of a faceless bureaucracy.
Ok, all we need it Jermy and Titus and we will have a full house of liberal useful idiots.
W - hanch - what liberals base laws on - they have a hanch that they can change human nature and it will all work out swell.
I'm not going to add to the flame wars or the trolling fever. Just want to make a point about the linked article: Garage says Camille is not a liberal, but the article, which is about the clusterf**k the current admin is having trying to get Obamacare passed, has as much to say about Bush (Iraq WMD lies, etc) as it does about Obama. EVERYTHING about Bush could, and should, have been left out of the article. Absolutely unnecessary, except to get in a few after-the-fight-is-over cheap shots.
She's a liberal.
'sicerge'
John Althouse Cohen wrote
"Every post about Camille Paglia seems to follow the same pattern:
(1) Paglia is really, really mad at liberals! (Or complimentary to conservatives.)
(2) Someone points out: and she's a liberal!"
yes, but it is great catnip for your mom's hillbillies!
If that were the case 70% of this country would fall into the category of "liberal".
Sorry, but garage doesn't get to define what "liberal" means.
I never get an answer from liberals on this one:
If you're arguing so hard that 'this ain't socialism', it suggests there's something actually wrong with socialism. So what is wrong with socialism, from a liberal POV?
Pogo, is medicare socialism?
It really, really seems like conservatives discovered the existence of government and the legislative process on January 20, 2009.
I wish there were an ignore feature on blogger.
Garage talks about someone with nothing upstairs??!!!
I mean that would be a howler even if he didn't call himself.....
Garage.
Sorry, but garage doesn't get to define what "liberal" means..
Listen. From now on, Supreme Leader Obama, Generalissimo Reid, [or me], will tell you exactly what it is or isn't. Got it?
Obla dee obla da, life goes on la.
Obla dee obla da, garage is braindead ha.
wv = obled
Listen. From now on, Supreme Leader Obama, Generalissimo Reid, [or me], will tell you exactly what it is or isn't. Got it?
Glad to see that's finally out of the way. I was telling everyone, this guy is a would-be executioner.
Speak of the devil - that ol' racist Le Lee figured out the verification trick, too.
Still full of hate and ragin' at the white people, I see, Le. Well done - we would be disappointed if a liberal stopped hating - that would just be too sad.
W - brapp - the sound that, well, you all know that sound - you hear it when liberals speak.
@garage, my point isn't that liberals march in lockstep like good little soldiers of the revolution -- though the way in which so many lefties spout identical talking points at the same time has a skeptical guy like me scratching his head a bit.
No, my point is that, as liberals used to do routinely back in the day, Ms. Paglia insists on thinking for herself. What a concept!
You should try it some time.
Medicare is a pre-paid health insurance plan. Sorta like paying for LTC insurance years before you may use it.
Workers pay premiums to Medicare for years until they need it after they turn 65 years old. So no, it is not socialism.
The average worker today pays about $1,500 per year to Medicare when you include his employer's "contribution".
Got it?
wv = cotlys
@garage, I was referring to your 4:12 comment. I see you slipped one in the meantime.
Robt C-
Ya, I wonder if she does that to confuse them into thinking...
Whatever.
What does piss me off to no end is that while the military was out fighting two fronts the liberals stabbed them in the back over and over again....
They peeled off enough Republicans with that-divide and conquer and now the Dems could lose FIFTY seats in the House in 2010 and still have enough to run ramshot.
I'm watching military guys watching these town halls and the Union thugs who didn't volunteer, who are acting like the big toughs with WW II vets and that generation .....
It's depressing how they know they have to sit and watch the citizens they die to protect, and who they want to have the liberty of free speech....
It's not infuriating to them, it's depressing to them....
Anyways FWIW.
NKVD wrote
"Still full of hate and ragin' at the white people, I see, Le."
Give it up NKVD. You sound like a second rate David Duke.
wv= "cowee"
What many of the conservative posters to this blog say to their wives at night during moments of passion.
And to all the Republicans who bailed who sat it out, because somehow your local rep wasn't perfect enough-
Let this be a lesson in relativity to you.
@garage, my point isn't that liberals march in lockstep like good little soldiers of the revolution -- though the way in which so many lefties spout identical talking points at the same time has a skeptical guy like me scratching his head a bit..
There are many criticisms from the left and right that are definitely valid. Paglia doesn't even come close. She doesn't even try, that was my beef. Oh well...
Le Lee, the hate filled name caller telling me to give it up - how very liberal of you.
You hate white people, you are a racist and you are a liberal. And you would silence those who call you out on your biases. That's certainly par for the course.
Sad part is you are too lame to recognize your own hypocracy. Keep progressing - you will be goose stepping before you know it.
Once in a blue moon, Freder is right and the more conservative posters, still making early 1980s boasts of America's medical system as "best in the world" for "freedom-lovers loving freedom!" - are wrong.
Yet somehow the rest of the developed world manages to provide health care to their entire population at a lower cost (by a considerable margin) with equal or often better results by any objective standard while the U.S. struggles to provide health care to 85% or so of its population while spending 1/3 more of its GDP than the next highest spending country.
Who is stupid again?
Some points:
1. The US spends 17% of its GDP on healthcare while France, Japan, and Switzerland spend 10, 9, and 11.4% - respectively. The three also lead the world in long lifespan. All while 45 million Americans are uninsured, another 70 million have insurance far inferior to France or Japan's plans.
2. The "US is too big, gigantic with a different culture to ever successfully adopt what any other country does!!" argument was not made with our emulating the German autobahn system or English industrial system.
3. America is resource constrained, just like any other country. In the future, because our technlogical edge is destroyed and the dollar as King about to be - even more so. Arguments that "RATIONING!" is unacceptable and "Victims and Victim Families" have a right to demand unlimited resources...or that only the wealthy should on the other side...are now pretty well discredited. By the reality that rationing is already a fact in most employer plans, and by a consensus that even the indigent deserve some minimal level of care that government must do because private charities gradually failed in the task..
4. The medical and business community now have a majority consensus that our present path on Medicare, employer health plans is uncompetitive, and unsustainable from a financial standpoint.
5. Research has shown the per capita rate of pharmceutical and medical technology innovation is equal to or even better than the rate of innovation in certain other highly advanced nations than in the US. All nations with universal health care.
Israel, Australia, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Switzerland, and France all exceed the US rate of medical advances.
Arguing that heathcare reform will "ruin the profit motive to find the cure for cancer" is fatuous. Also the mistaken belief that biotech entrepreneurs and Big Pharma teams "innovate from scratch with pure laissez faire capitalism driving it all." No, most drugs come from basic research funded by government and non-profit foundations. Most big medical technology advances also come from university systems which then peel off professors to make money for themselves and their schools making a commercial product or by profs bolting from the schools...
Somehow people have lost the concept of what insurance is as compared to health CARE. Of course if you have a pre existing condition, and are therefore much more likely to use the insurance, the company is going to compensate themselves for taking a bigger risk by charging you more. The property insurer will charge you more if your house is in a high fire area with a shake roof and no cleared defensible space around you. The auto company will charge you more if you have multiple wrecks or live in a high crime/high auto theft area. This concept is not new. Why should it be vacated for health insurance.
Insurance is to spread the risk over a pool of insured. Some people will cost the insurance company money because they actually have claims and many more will not have claims and be a money maker for the insurance company
When the Government proposes forcing EVERYONE, including the uninsurable risks, to either be insured or pay a big fine and still be insured there is no doubt that the risk of paying claims is now on the shoulders of the tax payer who has no freaking choice in the matter.
We are looking at rationing and substandard care.
When people say you can keep your insurance they are either liars or just plain stupid. If your employer decided that he wanted to go to the CHEAPER alternative of just paying 8% of payroll and drops the group coverage....YOU are screwed and you know it.
Also in the bill are provisions that make smart coverage like HSA High Deductible/Catastrophic coverage plans illegal. If you don't have a "qualified" plan (not an HSA type) or the government plan, when you file your taxes the IRS will take any refunds you may have to pay for coverage and PUT you on the government option and if you owe taxes....well you just owe some more. The IRS is going to be the enforcer. They Government will also have the right to go directly into your bank account and take out money. Cash will be king.
They WANT us to all be on the government plan so they can get money from us, reduce coverage and basically kill off the older people and cut back on Social Security payments as well. Win win for the Gov....lose lose and really fucked for the rest of us.
VW "oshic" a stylish way of saying we are screwed.
LOL
NKVD wrote
"And you would silence those who call you out..."
I would never silence you NKVD! You are too good for a cheap laugh!
C-4
Why don't you go take a look up the thread at Roger J.' comment and re-calibrate.
There are plenty of other factors, variables that could be contributing to our supposed reduced life expectancy.
Mobility.
Cars vs. small country pieds. OK?
Car crashes.
Gang violence.
Murder rate.
Diet.
MacDonald's.
That's just for starters.
Thanks for finally admitting that you are a racist - it's been a while, but worth the wait.
Keep hatin' Lee, it's all you have. Well, that and your cheapness.
C-4-
No, most drugs come from basic research funded by government and non-profit foundations.
Do you have a link for this assertion?
There are plenty of other factors, variables that could be contributing to our supposed reduced life expectancy
Correct. Unlike Sweden we are not a homgenious population or a country where the lifestyles are even similar from place to place.
Those who live in Utah have much healthier lifesytles, live longer and use less in medical services. East LA is different than Des Moines or even Madison.
It is comparing apples to oranges to try to come up with an average lifespan in the United States and compare it to a dinky country like Sweden.
Here C-4-
Roger J. said...
Anyone who attempts to use life expectancy or infant mortality as a metric to evaluate the quality of health care is most certainly not an epidemiologist. Until you disaggregate relevant portions of the population and compare those against similar populations you are literally comparing apples and oranges (or in this case Americans with Swedes). It is the heterogeneity problem. Epi principle: you have to compare consist numerators and denominators.
In terms of health care outcomes, where I propose the appropriate metric is five and ten year survivability following medical intervention, the Lancet Oncology Journal last August published the results of cancer rates. The US leads in recovery from Breast and prostate cancers.
Finally, if you pulling your medical arguments from Google, please switch to Pub Med because Google only get 60% of the pub med literature.
Come on C-4-
Bring it.
Dust Bunny Queen
Well ya but try telling some Harvard Grad in Chief that one.
So, no takers for my question, but it prompts LE Lee to ask me one.
L. Von Mises said "Socialism is the renunciation of rational economy."
Is that such a bad thing, LE Lee?
Why?
Why might socialism be an objectionable label?
C4 - If "the healthcare system" is what determines life expectancy, then why the huge disparities within the US?
For example, life expectancy in Hawaii is 80.1 vs. 73.6 in Mississippi, yet both share the same "flawed" American healthcare system. What might account for this difference, other than the healthcare system?
C-4
If your assertion that government funds most research is correct, then were do they get the revenue?
Taxes?
Who do they tax?
Companies that make PROFIT?
The very argument that the USA spends so much GDP could that not be because so far they have a lot of revenue to play with because companies have been-
profitable?
Pogo, what the Dems are proposing is not socialism.
Good try though.
LE Lee.
You are not answering the question.
Why would socialism be a bad thing?
That is, why are you and other liberals intent on rejecting the label? It suggests there is something bad about socialism.
What might that bad thing be, LE Lee?
Alternatively, maybe you do not think socialism is a bad thing at all.
If not, why do you think this is not socialism, and why aren't you proposing socialism, if you think that it is such a good thing?
LE Lee expects to be able to post racial hatred here and not get any pushback. He suspects that no one who is white can be as learned as he, nor his equal in intellectual ability - a true definition of a racist.
So he smugly uses racially inflammatory rhetoric to castigate an entire group of people and thinks we should just shuffle along, thank him for his largese, then stay quiet.
He cannot answer substantive questions about socialism and communism, first, because he has never thought about those systems in a critical way, and second, because he has never worked in a capitalist setting. He is a product of an education that taught him to hate white people, profit and individualism. He is too stupid to think his way out of his personal quagmire, even if he wanted to.
Matt says - As far as if their insurance goes belly-up well... that's capitalism.
It's not capitalism when the government is competing with private industry.
I have a deal for you Matt. You sell me all your worldly goods. Go ahead and sign the contract without reading it, we'll hammer out the details later.
NKVD wrote
"because he has never worked in a capitalist setting"
I am a small business owner in the retail sector. I am a capitalist 24/7.
Pogo why are you and other conservatives intent on rejecting the Althouse Hillbilly label? It suggests there is something bad about hillbillyism.
Pogo
So what is wrong with socialism, from a liberal POV?
When you say socialism most likely you are clumping it in with communism and stalinsm and complete tyrannical control by the government.
So let's start with what we mean rather than just calling something by some label.
Note that socialism is an economic system that for the most part opposes capitalism.
I'm a Liberal Democrat but I support capitalism as do every Liberal I know. However we lean toward what might be called a social democracy in which some things [post office, social security, medicare, libraries, fire departments etc] are run by the government. But this does not mean totally scrapping the capitalistic system for socialism. Nor does it mean there cannot be competition.
Understand that.
Same for health care. Some do want to go with a Single Payer plan. Some do not. The bottom line is to make health care affordable for everyone. I don't think that is a bad goal. The free market system has been unable to do that with health care - and so far as I can tell costs just keep sky rocketing.
I dislike racism in all its forms. You are a hateful person who spews racially charged garbage on here too often. You really should be ashamed, but as a liberal, you don't know the meaning of the word shame. Or a lot of other words, apparently.
Tell us the name of your business so we can organize a boycott - white people should not spend money at a place where they are so hated.
L.E.Lee-
It suggests there is something bad about hillbillyism.
Well ya because when you put-
Hill and Bill together you come up-
Clinton and bubbling sewage festooned with lead levels in the middle of Michelle's-
"organic" vegetable garden.
Why do you support capitalism at all?
If, for the sake of argument, the free market has failed "to make health care affordable for everyone", and therefore you assume that the government is a more efficient way to organize that part of the economy, why stop there?
Wouldn't the government be better at organizing all things?
Why do you support capitalism at all?
Yes NKVD, I want a crazy shotgun totin' Althouse Hillbilly like you parading outside my businesses.
You'd think the wise Liberals at the White House could have tested for that first.
Pogo, please read Adam Smith.
Matt or LE Lee: why support capitalism at all, for anything?
Another evasion, LE Lee.
Why are you afraid to answer it?
There are many criticisms from the left and right that are definitely valid. Paglia doesn't even come close.
Now you've really got me scratching my poor, balding head, garage. Everything Paglia wrote is perfectly valid. Maybe you need to read what she wrote again, and this time with an open mind.
My take on you is this. You are in one of the saddest situations a parent can be in, with a child that has a chronic illness, you have expenses that are not covered by your insurance, and consequently you experience expenses that strain the family budget. I've been there myself, and my son is lucky to have survived to adulthood. But how can you possibly believe that a government-run program will make things better? Trust me, if HR 3200 becomes the law of the land things will swiftly become worse for you and your family.
Pogo, I support capitalism, with some reasonable rules, 89.7% of the time.
Big Mike
I'll answer you shortly when I return.
Will most people (e.g.me) have better insurance if Obama's plan gets approved? Will taking the profit motive out of medicine decrease the possibility of innovation in drugs and treatments? Why is not possible to introduce the Obama plan to just one state or region first in order to evaluate how well it works? .....My wv is loseriu. My wv lacks latent content. I am ashamed of such obvious symbolism.
I wish he'd just slow the heck down. It feels like blitzkrieg.
The system does need to be changed: especially the malpractice lawsuits need a cap because there's going to be SOME error. It doesn't mean the whole system has to be destroyed just because there is error.
But he also needs to confess that he's added the illegals to the enrollees, and that he's going to decide who gets paid what, and so on.
He has to give us a chance to think about this mess, and not just roll over us with every last notion.
He needs to deal with everybody's fears, and he needs to be out front with why he added 20 million to 40 million illegal aliens to what we have to pay out for.
why doesn't he at least tell everybody he's doing that, and ask if it's ok? and say why he thinks it's ok to ask us to pick up the tab for that lot that isn't even supposed to be here?
Matt-
Well it's a noble goal , but some of us have been around government run health care for decades....
When you lose some of the incentives for good performance it gets in a perpetual motion of triage.
When you get that happening you get mediocrity,or worse substandard care.
My experience the one time they forced me to be hospitalized and thank gawd I wasn't really sick-
Six to a room.
A visitor that was allowed in the room at 1:00 am.
Toilet paper run out of constantly and having to be fetched.
One toilet, blood all over it and the floor.
Ran out of this stuff I was suppose to dress my own wound with-provided after a four hour wait.
Walked down the hall to find the public restroom without blood all over it, told I was violating regulations.
No towels. Waited for towels till 1:00 in the afternoon by elevator, finally threatened to use the curtains in the room-because I had spent sixteen hours in a fevered sweat and wanted to shower kind of desperately-
Finally got a shower at 2:00 in the afternoon.
If that's what you want for everybody go for it.
I'd like it not to be so.
Obamacare is for the birds.
Three other arguments popping up a lot are:
1. You cannot treat accidents and illness the same because the US - besides being too big ever adopt superior technology or systems from other countries - is also too diverse!
2. That if we ever adopted "socialized medicine" our hero doctors and nurses would leave in droves. Not enough hospital beds would exist!!
3. The Democrats are idiots and will mess this all up.
Answer to #1 - Lifestyle differences explain part of the failure to have as healthy an American population as exists in certain Asian and European nations. But we also know that dramatically shorter lifespans are seen in populations that have no or grossly inadequate health insurance plans compared to those of the same lifestyle with good coverage. Researchers say this disparity in the main driver to shorter oveall USA lifespans despite our paying 50% more per capita than any other nation.
Answer to #2 - We already have less nurses, doctors, and hospital beds than most advanced nations. We rank 52nd in doctors, 33 in number of nurses of 110 advanced nations. The OCED says the mean is 3.7 hospital beds, 3.1 doctors, and 9.2 nurses per 1,000 people. America has 2.9 hospital beds, 2.4 doctors, and 7.9 nurses per 1,000 people.
And it would be far worse stats if 25% of our doctors were not foreigners, 16% of nurses.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_phy_per_1000_peo-physicians-per-1-000-people
Even with certain Asian nations below us in doctors to population ratios, like Japan and S Korea - we find they have categories of trained people - paid less than doctors but leveraging the system - doing what only doctors are permitted to do in the USA. Nurse practitioners and medic technicians authorized to dispense medicine, perform minor surgical procedures, operate advanced equipment under a doctors general awareness and supervision.
Answer to #3 - Yes, the Dems are showing positive signs of messing this up. But what we get each time Republicans are in office are proclaimations that the US Healthcare system is the best in the world with absolutely no change warranted as it would be an assault on capitalism and "freedom-loving", that Big Pharma are wonderworkers needing more profits, higher drug prices to stimulate their "Cure production".
Hard to fight and claim a "better Republican plan exists" when each time the Republicans are in charge they abandon any pretense of reform that would alienate the AMA, Big Pharma, insurance companies making a mint off healthcare premiums, for-profit healthcare cabals and nursing home owners...
Pogo
Just because we have issues with some aspects of capitalism does not mean we want to scrap the whole enterprise. Why the heck would we? There are good things about capitalism and the free market [although I would argue our free market is not really free].
Are you unable to see that right now the US has many social programs that do not actually interfere with capitalism? Or more importantly that capitalism and the government can [and do] work side by side.
Why must you think people must choose 100% of one or 100% of the other? That is not viable for the US and has never been.
There are good things and bad things in capitalism and there are good things and bad things in government. Both are run by people. People are both good and bad.
Matt-
And not to be maudlin but when I was fifteen I watched my Grandmother die up in Canada, just recently I watched someone close to the family in Arizona die.
Now granted I was only fifteen when my Grandmother died up in Canada but the thing that is nagging the hell out of me and it might be for a variety of other reasons but with the current argument I am remembering one hell of a difference-
up in Canada there was not a lot of discussion from the doctors that went-
"Here are your choices we can do A, B or C...."
There was a lot of that in Arizona.
Plus my mother is a bit of a drama queen but she always claimed that the docs let her mother die.
Do with that what you will.
Hmmm. Why is it every crackpot, racist, socialist is ALWAYS a small business owner on this site? How can that possibility be?
Le Lee - ok, now we are getting somewhere. You own more than one business, are located in Wisconsin. You are sleep deprived due to running your enterprises 24/7, as you ever-so-hiply put it.
You are a fractional supporter of capitalism, but really, really want to pay more taxes.
You are still afraid to tell us the name of your store, ostensibly, due to fear of hillbillies, as you call white people.
I think your fear is based on other things - unreported income, underpayment of withholding on your employees, bad bookkeeping, not providing health insurance for your employees - something along those lines. You are not honest because you cannot be - you know that you are guilty of various crimes, including hate speech, and probably much more serious ones. It's a wonder you can sleep at night, being such a hypocrite. Oh right, you don't sleep - you are always on the job.
Madawaskan, thirty years ago in the US, doctors didn't spend a lot of time discussing options with patients.
NKVD, PLEASE keep the laughs coming!
BTW, if Meadhouse ever has another Madison meetup I will show.
But please leave your animals at home!
Researchers say this disparity in the main driver to shorter oveall USA lifespans despite our paying 50% more per capita than any other nation.
Really? Which researchers? Surely you can't believe that if the Japanese health care system was imported intact into Mississippi or Alabama, the life expectancy there would rise to Japanese levels.
Can you explan why there is such a great disparity between states in the US if "the healthcare system" is what drives life expectancy?
Life expectancy is simply not a valid proxy for "excellence of the healthcare system".
madawaskan
What hospital were you at with all the blood? Was this recently?
Re your grandmother. Sorry to hear that. I have to say I have always heard good things [from Canadians I know] about the Canadian system but I'm sure there are some issues. However, I know of very few Canadians who want to exchange their system for ours. I think they might appreciate a system that is a combination of the two.
And so here we are. Why not have a system in the US which combines the two? I really don't see how a Universal health plan will lead to socialism/ communism and a complete collapse of private health care. In fact, Medicare [which is running out of money, true] has not hurt the medical profession. Doctors use it and bill the plan as they would any insurance plan. It is there for people who cannot afford regular plans. And I have seen it work well for people in my own family. But I know older folks who are rich enough that they don't need what Medicare offers. Fine. They can choose a different plan.
The U.S. spends a lot on it's health care for 3 simple reasons:
1) We can because we have the most disposable income.
2) We want to so we get better outcomes, which we do.
3) We need to subsidize the rest of the world who will not spend the money needed to develop their own drugs and methods. They don't have to create, test or produce them and they refuse to pay full price for them when they exist. We get stuck with the bill.
This is very similar to our role in stabilizing the world. If it needs done and it's hard or expensive, the U.S. is the only one who will do it. The rest of the world should be ashamed.
I don't know that much about Kafka although I am familiar with his his satires on bureaucracy, and I do know his anti-bureaucracy inspiration tends toward anarchism, but shouldn't that be Huxleyesque brave new world?
The left keeps complaining that the right has been too vocal, too violently vocal for their taste. And they also wish everybody would just shut up and realize what's good for them.
Reagan's son was on CNN the other night saying that the whole townhall situation was disgraced by a pistol that fell out of someone's pants at some townhall meeting.
They're not talking about details at all, but trying to refocus attention on the aggression of the right and center, and calling anybody who doesn't agree with them Nazis.
If we can't have the first amendment so that people can talk, that leaves the second amendment.
I think we'd all rather stick with the first, but the first has to be honored with Some TIME to speak up, and be heard.
Obama's crazy staged bit in NH the other night was just another bit of lame theatrics. No one who really hated socialism was in that hall. They were all talking plants.
If you compare that room to the mayhem of other halls, you know that Obama hand-picked the questioners again.
Matt-
Tinker AFB.
Sorry to dump that here, let's just say one way to ration health care is to make people scared to death to go -
I don't go often, so...and it can't be that bad for everyone -hopefully I just know my experience.
I think the care from base to base is highly variable-I hope...
One of my favorites is when they had me swallow this radioactive dose and then asked me to prove who I was...
I'm all like you gotta be kidding-right?
And there like no we have to make sure we gave the right radioactive dosage to the right person....
I had just driven 90 miles or so for said treatment-to another military hospital-so they really didn't know me.
But-
I'm all like-
Should you not have made sure who I was-BEFORE i just swallowed this crap?
Gawd, all I can tell you is I don't go in too often, about every five years when I'm coughing up blood or something...
And I would like to believe that you guys got it better...
In addition to better health care out comes for our money, we also get fantastic jobs for a large number of people in our society who are creating wealth and wonderful drugs and therapies that save lives. Socialized care mostly will add bureaucrats, paper pushers, accountants, etc. Not wealth producing 21st century occupations.
I realize that all means nothing to liberals. Probably just reads like Bla bla bla to them.
Oh hell I just was in there maybe a year and a half ago and the the group Doc belongs to Team "X" has this sign inside his office-
that goes something like-
Please only two complaints, for more than that make another appointment.
I'm sitting there thinking what if some person decided to edit a really important symptom due to that sign?
Another one-
They had this regulation that women had to go to a prenatal diet class before getting appointment #1-at OB/GYN.
They had an automated appointment call in sevice people would call in wait two hours sometimes to get to an operator and then the classes would be booked.
The computer would only let them book three weeks at a time, and no one took the initiative to go around that-"efficiency" so long story short-
Women would be eight months pregnant sitting through a class telling them about First trimester nutrition ...
Really brilliant....
LE Lee said: "BTW, if Meadhouse ever has another Madison meetup I will show."
You know, I might be willing to drive 12 hours just to see if you'd use a racial epithet to my face.
Matt @ 5:48 The bottom line is to make health care affordable for everyone. I don't think that is a bad goal. The free market system has been unable to do that with health care - and so far as I can tell costs just keep sky rocketing.
Call.
Check out this article linked at Instapundit earlier.
Don't know if this has been discussed (I've been busy).
What I find intriguing / disturbing is that some of the reasons the healthcare free market doesn't work as well is -- ta daa --GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.
The Whole Foods guy (interesting that they "get it" and figured out some thing that works for them) touches on things which I have found -- or tried to find which are NOT offered because of regulations.
I have looked for catastrophic coverage and find some plans with bigger deductibles... but they are pretty weak knee-d imitations and the savings weren't in line.
I pay for my doctor's visits. (Like you do when you get your car worked on.) Because my primary care doc knows I am "naked" (as he calls it) and that I actually do PAY cash, I think I get a little deal. (Just spent $110 this week.)
Mackey (Whole Foods guy) suggests that health insurance that individuals chose to or have to carry should get equal tax benefits, (since we're all into 'equality' on this thing).
Mackey says " Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines. We should all have the legal right to purchase health insurance from any insurance company in any state and we should be able use that insurance wherever we live. Health insurance should be portable."
Amen to that. I can find companies who would cover cheaper, or more in line with what I need, but they don't operate in my state. I am all for states rights. But if the Feds want to do something useful, they might have the states think about allowing competition across state line.
Tort reform. Notice how that is apparently TOTALLY missing in this bill? Maybe John Edwards would have to give back his 26,000 sf home.
Mackey again " Finally, revise tax forms to make it easier for individuals to make a voluntary, tax-deductible donation to help the millions of people who have no insurance and aren't covered by Medicare, Medicaid or the State Children's Health Insurance Program."
Since it seems that leftists / liberals are cheapskates when it comes to charities (Bidens? Obamas before they came under public scrutiny? Even then, tightwads.) they may not believe it would work --- But why not try it before shafting everyone?
I participate in a voluntary cooperative medical expense program whereby I contibute monthly to someone who has medical expenses. If I need help (after a "deductible" is met) I would receive help.
Guess that's ole' Hillary's village concept in the flesh, huh. Only we didn't need the federal government to do it. And it works well.
So there are some large scale changes which could be made, and some other innovative options which could be pursued.
Given that TennCare and the Mass plan don't seem to have worked out well, and CA covers anyone who shows up on their doorstep (and look where they are), it would certainly seem that the people we send to Congress would be a heck of a lot more careful about what they are doing with our lives, our choices, our money.
And what they do they have done without doing the homework that WE are doing for them.
A garbage pail bill like this where they are throwing everything down the hole is just completely invasive and irresponsible. It is truly a power grab that goes way beyond making health care "affordable."
I do not want to be part of this social engineering "experiment."
Nurse practitioners and medic technicians authorized to dispense medicine, perform minor surgical procedures, operate advanced equipment under a doctors general awareness and supervision.
Ced, you are aware that np's and pa's can prescribe meds in the US too, aren't you? I'm not sure what "minor equipment" or surgical procedures you are talking about so I can't speak to that without looking it up.
madawaskan, does that mean that the women had no prenatal care until that point? That sounds awful.
My in-laws claim that military doctors and hospitals are awful, and if my mother-in-law is to be believed, her experiences have been truly terrible. Poor care leading to permanent problems.
More recently, my in-laws now have the insurance provided to government employees now, and she had to wait 3 weeks after her cancer diagnosis to see an oncologist to schedule her surgery. It wasn't some dastardly death panelist weighing the pros and cons of letting her die; it was just bureaucratic incompetence: lost paperwork, people talking past each other, people not returning phone calls, t's not crossed and i's not dotted, etc. She's going to be fine, fortunately, but if her cancer had been fast growing, it may have been a different story.
This is why I worry about government health care. I worry that the current proposals are a backdoor to single payer, and we would all have to go through this sort of thing. I would be much more reassured if it were taken slowly and openly. That it hasn't been is of great concern to me.
Kirby Olson
If you look at the protests now I think you will agree it is the right calling the left [and Obama] Nazi's. Not the other way around.
Also the NH town hall was not hand picked. Just how could they hand pick people? Based on looks? And if they based it on how people answered a questions then people could just lie and then get in to raise hell.
The reason people were respectful is because people are generally respectful toward the POTUS and he was up on a stage with a bit of distance. Compare that to the Senators who are usually right there face to face with the town hall folks.
Yes, there was theatrics involved but when isn't there with a POTUS? It's always theatical.
If you look at the protests now I think you will agree it is the right calling the left [and Obama] Nazi's. Not the other way around.
Honey, Pelosi started the whole thing. People are responding to THAT. Plus, I saw one guy had an obama hitler mustache poster was id'd as a plant.
Also the NH town hall was not hand picked. Just how could they hand pick people? Based on looks? And if they based it on how people answered a questions then people could just lie and then get in to raise hell.
For not being handpicked, they sure did manage to get some little campaign contributers daughter to ask some sickening childlike "why are you so awesome and why doesn't everyone else realize it" question. Honestly, man, are you blind?
Why does everyone deserve health care anyway? Where does egalitarianism stop? If everyone deserves health care then why doesn't everyone deserve to go to Harvard? if everyone deserves health care, then why doesn't everyone deserve government funded dinner dates in New York?
Matt at 6:38 -- You need some feedback.
If you think the Canadian system is so great, you haven't been talking to enough people. (Where was the medivac helicopter at that ritzy resort that whatzherface had to be driven hours from for care??)
As Mark Steyn joked one day ... if this plan goes through all his friends in Ottowa will have to go to Guatamala for care istead of hopping over the border to New England.
Doctors often limit the number of Medicare patients they take because the reimbursements are so small. You should check out what the doctors are actually getting .... And consider that they have to run and pay an office, lab, insurance, etc.
The bureacracy of a Federal single pay system alone is withering to consider.
You are fairly young, I take it.
WV=irreader
I is.
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