A lot of folks are outraged and there's the predictable crying of racism.
But — as Drudge points out — Vanity Fair did exactly the same thing to the image of George Bush a year ago.
August 4, 2009
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209 comments:
1 – 200 of 209 Newer› Newest»Interesting, but we know what fallacy that falls under.
That was different - that was the evil BushHitlerMcChimpyHalliburton, not the LightWorker.
Predictable and pathetic. I like the poster when it has the "Why so socialist?" statement on it. Plus there is this Jim Treacher take on the whole cries of racism thing.
http://jimtreacher.com/archives/002100.html#more
Were there two of these? I've most recently seen the one The Crack Emcee and others posted; but thought a little before, someone had one with a bit of green in it - might have been using it as a blogger avatar, or on facebook.
Pretty tough to fight ridicule, huh? It looks good on him, though there is more work to be done - but of course one gets the message.
I love it on VF where they're all circle-JOing over the Bush-as-Joker illo and one starts off on how Ledger's Joker is no maniac but a genius. Now THAT rings a bell with this one...
I predict Jeremy will be by momentarily to decry the racism,,,
@cryptical, I won't take that bet.
Why would people even cast Obama as the Joker? Doesn't he fit better as Harvey Dent? I mean, he's a smarmy politician, people vest their hopes in him, and, eh, he turns out to be kind of two faced.
The best movie character resemblence for Pres. Obama is from a seldom watched oldie called 2001 A Space Odessy. HAL 9000 is Obama to a T.
We would have to liken that big eared mixed race chain smoking communist idiot to a chimp for Jeremy to call racism. I would say it was an insult to chimps.
Bush was cast as any number of villains (Hitler, Nero, surprisingly I even saw a Stalin) and the Left guffawed and chortled for 8 years with derisive glee.
Did they think it would never come back to bite them?
But — as Drudge points out — Vanity Fair did exactly the same thing to the image of George Bush a year ago.
Great point. Nothing can be offensive now, because something similar happened previously!
"We would have to liken that big eared mixed race chain smoking communist idiot to a chimp for Jeremy to call racism. I would say it was an insult to chimps."
Words fail me.
The Joke is on us.
What has Obama done about unemployment. 1 out of 10 are unemployed - a huge number. Yet Obama has done nothing to address the issue in the last 5 months.
It's pathetic.
garage - Not so at all. It was offensive then and (IMO) it's still offensive now.
However, it wasn't racist then and it still isn't now.
Lord have mercy......where have I been?....how could I have missed this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/althouse/3773118654/sizes/l/
It's a Summit ! One man's back is being held against the wall, as the other man burrows on in. A Grilling ! An Interrogation--- the man against the wall doesn't have the right answers but Der Kommisar is determined to keep at it.
Memo to Meade: Location is everything, and the minute you sit against a wall, you lose ground.
Even you oughtta know, nobody outdoes a Jew bent on an inquest.
Duh.
"Nothing can be offensive now, because something similar happened previously"
I didn't hear anyone say that. Of course it can be offensive now but, to suggest that this is beyond the pale is nothing short of hypocritical and, shall I say, audacious.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/althouse/3773118654/
______________________
Priceless. The look of fear in Meade's eyes.
Crazy Jew on the warpath---no match for Meade.
Great point. Nothing can be offensive now, because something similar happened previously!
Nobody's making that argument. They're just amused by the hypocrisy of your behavior.
Obviously the poster is offensive to Obama supporters, just like the earlier poster was deliberately offensive to Bush supporters. So what? So you're offended. Explain why we're supposed to care?
Oh and by the way, there's no right not to be offended in this country. Yet.
Let me also recycle the argument from the Left when conservatives suggested it was wrong to compare Bush to Hitler:
"Tell that to all the people he's responsible for killing in Iraq and Afghanistan"
So, there you go.
Good point Revenant! But I wouldn't say we don't care that people like Jeremy are offended by this poster. It's so awesome BECAUSE it offends those dill-holes.
Jeremy got his widdle feelings hurt!
In my best Nelson, Hah Hah!
Oh dear! Looks like Maxine escaped her minders again.
Well it figures that it has to be wingerKKKers behind the poster since they are springing up in the winger hotbeds of LA, Chicago and Atlanta.
I smell money, not political speech as the motivator behind the posters.
I think the poster of Obama as the Joker is unfair. The Joker's healthcare reform did far less damage.
Let's be gentle with the left wingers on this. It's a new experience for them to have their hero effectively mocked with a hip, viral poster. They're only used to seeing him portrayed heroically on Time magazine covers, or standing in front of styrofoam pillars, or idolized with hip Che Guevara-like iconic symbolism. Seeing all that turned against him is jarring and upsetting to them and when they're not sure how to respond, their lower liberal brains kick in and their mouths start blatting out "racism! racism! racism!" They can't help it, it's just the nature of their condition.
Joker, trickster: what's the difference. By now it's patently obvious Obama lies when his lips move.
garage mahal said...
But — as Drudge points out — Vanity Fair did exactly the same thing to the image of George Bush a year ago.
Great point. Nothing can be offensive now, because something similar happened previously!
No. Not really. Just that folks who never criticized the VF picture don't have much standing to criticize the Obama poster.
I saw the Vanity Fair picture back when it came out and was underwhelmed--it told me a lot more about VF than it did about Bush. If there is any difference it is that VF is a main-stream publication and the Obama picture came from who knows where.
@cryptical, looks like Jeremy sent AlphaLiberal and garage mahal instead of showing in person. Apparently neither of them gets that the point of the poster is to piss off Democrats, just as the allegedly humorous portrayals of Bush as the Joker, as Hitler, as a chimp, etc., etc., etc. were calculated to piss off Republicans. Only on university campuses is there a right not to be upset by free speech.
Sports.
Two preteen boys, or I guess by now---teen boys, who have not been encouraged to participate in sports.
And, therein lies the problem.
Once again, a Mom who completely disavows any, and all, sports activities for her sons.....and we can see where that's headed. How's it workin' out for ya Mom ?
Dad has some responsibility, but Mom wears the pants, and Mom is the one who ultimately decides on extracurricular activities.
Sports, and particularly team sports, solves a lot of problems with boys, and particularly boys that come from dysfunctional families--- and have sports to fall back on. It's the missing link and provides some sense of normalcy and continuity for these kids. The benefits of sports training for kids lasts far into their adult lives.
How sad, that, once again, we have an "educated" Mom who refuses to see that.
Words fail me.
If only. If only.
So you're offended. Explain why we're supposed to care?
It's near impossible for me to get offended, I love this stuff. If I gave you the impression I cared, then I really need to up my game.
Obama as the Joker; without words the image describes him to a T. Anything else is just commentary.
what Rev said (incredibly well)
I don't see any crying of racism.
Obamas numbers have been crashing badly.
This poster could have been put out by Obamas people to Jiu Jitsu; prop him up. Remember Jeremiah Wright and how he turned it around?
This time however is different.
To Obama-care detractors, Skip Gates may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.
Just fresh off the beer summit, fresh in peoples memories, I don't think the white house wants to go back there.
I don't see any crying of racism.
Read the original LA Weekly post.
How racism could be tied to being portrayed as the joker, via this funny rewrite of the interrogation scene of "The Dark Knight", by Jim Treacher:
http://jimtreacher.com/archives/002100.html
"I don't see any crying of racism."
From the LAWeekly which had previously published a picture of Bush as a vampire on the cover.
"It has a bit of everything to appeal to the drunk tank of California conservatism: (...) The only thing missing is a noose."
They also complained of "white face". I'm not real sure what that's supposed to signify. I do have it on fairly reliable authority, however, that all nooses, always and forever, are about lynching blacks.
Chris,
I don't see any crying of racism.
Start here: LA Times:Obama 'Joker' Poster Causing a Stir in L.A.
The key part is Earl Ofari Hutchinson. He cannot opine on any issue - to be fair, the media doesn't go to him unless it's about race - without race sooner or later brought into it.
It's only a matter of time.
(Disclaimer - I actually like some of Hutchinson's commentary on certain issues. He is often correct in my opinion to bring race into certain discussions.)
I found it in the second link. Still, I doubt anyone but the most inveterate lefties would go there. Seems like pretty low hanging fruit to nail them.
There is no comparison between Obama and the Joker.
The Joker was far less dangerous, had less of a narcissistic personality complex, and did less damage.
traditionalguy said...
The best movie character resemblence for Pres. Obama is from a seldom watched oldie called 2001 A Space Odessy. HAL 9000 is Obama to a T.
Bush had a big method acting role in the film. He was in the opening scenes.
Big handsome fellow interacting with alien artifacts and wielding a thigh bone?
Well, all I know is that just like the Tea Parties, just like the Health Care Townhalls Gone Wild, no actual individuals are upset about Obama's policies.
This poster was clearly manufactured by Republican political operatives. Or big corporations. If not those, then the Mormons.
Because everyone in America loves Obama and his policies. Really!
If I gave you the impression I cared, then I really need to up my game.
@garage, you need to up your game just to spell words the same way twice, never mind whether either of them is right.
Yes, for a comprehensive look at the Angry Left/Obama-bot's very special kind of hatred, see here.
It's not racist, and it's not even offensive unless Obama is your Mama, in which case Prof. Gates wants to see her outside.
The Vanity Fair Bush one is offensive because you can't even tell who it's supposed to be. Therefore, it could be Jesus, which is offensive.
I hate imprecise political satire - an innocent person could get hurt.
Thanks for that link Anton. Just imagine the outrage if any of those were Obama. My god, it would start a new Spanish Inquisition, which of course no one ever expects. Then all of a sudden, there they are.
“He can’t be bought, bullied or negotiated with… some people just want to see the world burn.”
— Alfred speaking of the Joker, in The Dark Knight (2008)
It seems to me this is simply a case of the chickens coming home to roost, to borrow a concept from a real racist. Any Democrats upset need to examine their conscience about their tactics of the last eight years.
Never mind masks - this is in the flesh:
http://www.theospark.net/2009/08/omfg.html
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_3QqO8EXd-II/SnaIQ_r9ZwI/AAAAAAAAq_Q/cpQ2SOcRP8c/s1600-h/m.jpg
Who can blame 0 for playing with makeup?
Anyone who thinks this is racist is insane. At the same time, those who truly believe Obama is a crazed socialist are equally insane. Have fun with each other, idiots.
"those who truly believe Obama is a crazed socialist are equally insane."
What if he believes it himself?
I'm cool right, cause I only believe he's a foolish socialist. Crazed would be more of a problem politically. He knows better than to pound his shoe on the desk.
Why not tell other parents how to raise their children?
If it takes a village, and we can see the direct results of bad parenting...I have an absolute obligation to intervene.
Give those two boys a basketball. Start taking them to baseball games. Tryouts, sports camp, games, tailgate parties.... these are the things that give order, continuity and shape to young boys' lives.
Without it, they are set adrift...as we've seen time and time again.
Of course lefties and the media will be two faced about it, enjoying the mocking of Bush in worse terms while pretending to be outraged about this. And, compared to the Bush attacks, this one actually has substance with "socialism." TRO is right that the original "Why so socialist?" was a much better poster.
BUT, we would all be better off without such disrepectful treatment of our president. It is a shocking and disturbing image.
ZPS,
I think the Joker poster alludes to the destructive nature of Obama's policies... I don't think anybody necessarily thinks of him as a "crazed" socialist. Just an effective one! LOL.
I am undecided on that issue myself. I think it's entirely possible he's a socialist, and doesn't even realize it! But there's a fair argument to be made there. I don't really care if he is or not. I don't like the policies, that's all I care about.
That and the fact that he was supposed to bring a New Kind of Politics and Change I Could Believe In and it was all a giant crock of shit.
But where can I buy one?
The Joker was clearly a psychopath. Right behind his rationale was simply a need to go berserk (Ledger's version). I think Obama is something far worse: an idealist who is actually a pretty nice guy, but no sense of where his policies have been (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.), or what kind of disasters it makes when the government controls the economy.
Maybe the Joker has a sense of humor of at least a kind. I don't think Obama has a sense of humor. He can laugh on cue, but I don't think he's ever funny, or fun.
He's just too idealistic to have any fun.
an idealist who is actually a pretty nice guy, but no sense of where his policies have been (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.), or what kind of disasters it makes when the government controls the economy.
Entirely possible. Probable, even.
But where can I buy one?
I saw a site earlier today with all sorts of Obama Joker merchandise on sale. I found it by Googling just that, "Obama Joker Poster".
Interestingly, someone had a Jack Nicholson Joker poster or picture up last all of Obama based on that iconic picture of him. I think that this one is more troubling to a lot of people, maybe due to Heath Ledger being the scarier Joker.
I saw that artwork for sale on the interwebs somewhere - shirts, posters and so on. But I don't remember the specific site. Wasn't the Che poster place, that's for sure.
And Obama is a crazed socialist - he wants power, and knows that if he controls the economy he has power over everyone and everything. Give it time - it will become clear that the banks, two thirds of the domestic auto business and health care are not enough. Absolute power is what he wants.
“He can’t be bought, bullied or negotiated with… some people just want to see the world burn.”
— Alfred speaking of the Joker, in The Dark Knight (2008)
I think one of Obama's defining characteristics is that he's actually exceptionally easy to bully. As always, I like to trot out the example of his high-handed race speech during the campaign, where he claimed he couldn't disown his pastor any more than his grandmother, and his church any more than the black community. A month later, he disowns his pastor. Two months later, he leaves his church. His team can be hard-nosed and vicious, and he talks big himself, but when it comes down to it, he's kind of a political coward. He's not Batman or the Joker. He's not even Harvey Dent, really.
garage mahal said...
Great point. Nothing can be offensive now, because something similar happened previously!
Oh no. Hey everyone, look the liberal pussy is crying about being offended that his little lord and savior has been mocked in the Joker motif. Garage, you prove my point over and over and over again. Do you really think that people take you seriously anymore? That you being offended is somehow relevant to anything. Wow, so you are offended. Oh no, the sky just fell on your head. Woe is you. You stupid tool.
It will be interesting what comes of this. Part of the reason I think this went viral is that the left has totally overreacted. And, so, now it is politically adventuresome and rebellious to propagate the Ledger Obama Joker.
The reason that this could be significant is that for the last year, it has been cool to back Obama. And that is part of why he was elected - a lot of young people voted for the first time, just to vote for him.
But now, with all those on the left overreacting, it is now, at least in some circles, to distribute this picture.
The liberals running this country should know that the worst thing that they could do here is to be too sensitive to this sort of thing. That gives an added incentive to any young adults who wish to be different and express themselves as such.
What will be interesting is to see if this is a green light societally for making serious fun of Obama.
"an idealist who is actually a pretty nice guy"
No way that he's a "pretty nice guy."
Pretty nice guys don't give two different opponents the finger and then think themselves so clever that they laugh at their own juvenile insult.
Pretty nice guys don't sit in the church of a racist and anti-Semite pastor for 20 years.
Pretty nice guys don't get ahead in Chicago politics.
Pretty nice guys don't manage to insult cops AND doctors in a single press conference.
Nope. Obama's anything but a nice guy. He's an emotionally stunted 14-year old boy in the body of a 48-year old man with a head full of bad ideology, bad ethics and even worse attitude.
BUT, we would all be better off without such disrepectful treatment of our president. It is a shocking and disturbing image.
Agreed. But Bush was unfailingly gracious to the opposition--no one could credibly deny that he was a complete class-act as president. And look what it got him. I fear we are down that road, and there's no going back.
garage mahal said...
It's near impossible for me to get offended, I love this stuff.
Well, then you are a backpeddling liar. You sure made a big deal about being offended. So I guess now you know what it's like on the Jeremy/Gene side of life? A liar telling lies to make himself feel better about telling them. I swear, between you, AL, and Jeremy/Gene, you make up The Three Stooges of Althouse with hdhouse as the occasional Schemp, and Montana Urban Legend as Curly Joe. One dimensional comedy.
Bruce Hayden said...
The liberals running this country should know that the worst thing that they could do here is to be too sensitive to this sort of thing. That gives an added incentive to any young adults who wish to be different and express themselves as such.
What would you expect from shallow thinking leftists who have very very very short memories?
What will be interesting is to see if this is a green light societally for making serious fun of Obama.
The thing about it, though, is that it doesn't even really make fun of Obama. What about Obama is like the Joker? And what about the Joker is like Socialism? It doesn't even make sense. I mean, maybe it's the gateway to making fun of Obama in ways that actually do make sense, e.g. mocking his vainglorious sense of self-importance or whatever, but of itself, putting a Joker face on Obama isn't particularly funny.
Now, I suppose photoshopping Obama's head onto the Joker's head in the scene where he blows up the hospital makes vague sort of topical sense. And it's a funny scene, so it's kind of funny. But that's really a oneshot joke -- and it's not what we have here, which is just Obama's visage, blank and pitiless as the sun, with Joker makeup photoshopped on.
Clearly, there are a lot of Obama-ites who think it's an extraordinarily offensive act of lese-majeste to defile the face of their god, but frankly, it's not even like photoshopping a Joker face onto a politician is particularly offensive -- I didn't even hear about the Joker-Bush back when it came out. And there's a bunch of Joker-Clinton pictures from 2007 and 2008, and I don't recall any fuss about those.
I don't think there is any serious reason to doubt that Obama is a socialist, although I suppose you would have to come up with a an agreed upon definition to fairly discuss the issue.
But his background and own statements through the years pretty clearly convey that he is socialist, and his policies since becoming president confirm it. He is just pretty good at saying he is not or sounding like he is not. I hate to say it, but Rush probably is right. The best thing for the country is for Obama to be disaster and effectively lose his influence next year with the mid-term elections.
Now, I suppose photoshopping Obama's head onto the Joker's head in the scene where he blows up the hospital makes vague sort of topical sense. And it's a funny scene, so it's kind of funny. But that's really a oneshot joke -- and it's not what we have here, which is just Obama's visage, blank and pitiless as the sun, with Joker makeup photoshopped on.
Interesting idea. Given that it could be argued that he is currently trying to blow up the health care industry, that picture might have some resonance.
Clearly, there are a lot of Obama-ites who think it's an extraordinarily offensive act of lese-majeste to defile the face of their god.
And that is why I think it has gone viral.
Oh no. Hey everyone, look the liberal pussy is crying about being offended that his little lord and savior has been mocked in the Joker motif. Garage, you prove my point over and over and over again. Do you really think that people take you seriously anymore? That you being offended is somehow relevant to anything.
Listen fuckface! I don't give a shit about the poster, at all. I really really don't. If you took my little swipe at Althouse as me being offended, then you're the little pussy who's projecting their delicate feelings, and that I can't help.
He doth protest too much...
At the same time, those who truly believe Obama is a crazed socialist are equally insane.
Good point. He's not crazed at all. :)
@garage, yeah, but you were taking a swipe at the Professor on the first full day of her married life.
Sorry 'bout my comment earlier, I was just talking a little trash. As the saying goes, I didn't mean nothin' by it.
Great point. Nothing can be offensive now, because something similar happened previously!
You can be as offended as you like. And we can laugh at you.
Poster, Schmoster!
In Front Page New York Times News,
Former President Clinton rescued the 2 imprisoned American journalists in North Korea, and re-established great relations with that country.
Which, from reading the New York Times, relations with North Korea went bad all because of George Bush, that bastard.
I mean, the Times is always straight up in it's reporting, right?
As a leftard Obamabot of the first degree, I must say that any objection to any figurative portrayal of the man who occupies the office of the presidency is un-American. The practice of caricaturing, distorting, lampooning and otherwise reacting against the figurehead (as the President always is) is a grand and noble tradition.
And I must say that it thrills me to think that it's Barack Obama in that position today. What a beautiful country.
The comparison isn't to THE Joker, it's calling him A joker.
No big deal. Heath Ledger's Joker was sexy. I would of done him but who wouldn't? He was so dangerous and hot and you know he had a nice uncut Australian hog.
God Rest His Soul.
That was a waist of a night hog.
I don't care about making him look like the Joker. But calling him a Socialist is just real fucking dumb. If you don't know what a word means, stop using it.
The guy supports capitalism. He bailed out bankers, for fuck's sake. A real socialist would be all "aha! the contradictions of capitalism cause it to collapse!"
Hey, right wingers, there's socialism right under your nose! That's right! The Fire Department is wholly run by the government!! OMG. Time for you all to shriek like little girls.
The government can't do anything right! Only the private sector can!
We need private sector fire fighters to cut costs, improve service and spur innovation. No more socialist firefighters! no more union firefighters!
Yeesh. Ignorance on parade.
Kansas City displays some raw right wing stupid:
I don't think there is any serious reason to doubt that Obama is a socialist, although I suppose you would have to come up with a an agreed upon definition to fairly discuss the issue. .
So, he has no doubt Obama is a socialist, but he's not sure what a socialist is.
"The stupid. It burns."
Really, no kidding now. When you guys run around saying he's a socialist you sound really dumb.
The guy supports capitalism. He bailed out bankers, for fuck's sake.
The amusing thing is that you think taking hundreds of billions of dollars from productive workers and giving it to politically connected bankers is "capitalism".
Here's a hint: if the government is deciding who gets the money and dictating which businesses succeed or fail... that's socialism. That's government control of the economy.
Anyone else look at the VF comment section?
I had blurred all the nastiness in my memory.
You leftists really do nasty.
Revenant -- isn't it tending towards fascism?
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Like the Feds owning the car companies as a start?
The old pro Bill Clinton rescues journalists. Provides teaching moment for Barack Obama. How embarrassing, no?
Revenant -- isn't it tending towards fascism?
It isn't like the two are mutually exclusive. :)
garage mahal:
"Listen fuckface!"
Yep, it's Jeremy.
"calling him a Socialist is just real fucking dumb."
How about calling him a fascist? After all he's asking his supporters to report political opponents to the WH:
http://tinyurl.com/kpl3qe
The socialist libs can dish it out - in all manner of silly, petulant "artwork" of Bush, yet, "The Messiah" is painted as he truly is and they cry foul. Expectable, yet so absurd.
It's curious how desperately the Democrats try to disavow their government takeover of the economy as 'socialist'.
It's as if there is something so inherently wrong with socialism that one must contort, twist, elide, evade, and even lie in order to portray the state annexation of what was once private into 'public' control (i.e. socialization) as something other than what it is.
Why would that be so?
Pogo
Sadly enough, although most Americans are not ready to use the word Socialist, they are amenable to many Socialist "programs." You get it, they don't.
It attests to the magical power of words that by the mere combination of letters, or renaming this to that without changing its essence, one can be persuaded to adopt the most odious, selfish, monstrous, and destructive practices.
From the caves and the bush we have advanced hardly at all.
@Alphaliberal
" AlphaLiberal said...
Kansas City displays some raw right wing stupid:
I don't think there is any serious reason to doubt that Obama is a socialist, although I suppose you would have to come up with a an agreed upon definition to fairly discuss the issue. .
So, he has no doubt Obama is a socialist, but he's not sure what a socialist is.
"The stupid. It burns."
Really, no kidding now. When you guys run around saying he's a socialist you sound really dumb."
After reading some of your current and previous comments, you've very nearly convinced me that your attention-to-detail gland has atrophied.
Kansas City has no doubt that Obama is a socialist by HIS definition. He then goes on to say that if there is to be a fair debate on the topic, the participants need to agree on what socialism is. That's a good policy no matter what the topic is.
Your anger is clouding your judgement, Grasshopper. There is no air in the windmill of your mind.
The power in the Joker Obama image is coupling the Socialist truth with the demonic evil from which that idea springs when in actual practice. Without free markets where free people trade private property freely, everyone is a slave for an evil Master's purposes, be they first announced as good or bad purposes. Both the Joker character and Obama are dedicated to destruction of the society they are lurking within. Corollary rule is that war is first the use of art of deception, and the un-masking of Obama's intent this early in his campaign to destroy a free people in America is unhelpful to Obama.
Really, no kidding now. When you guys run around saying he's a socialist you sound really dumb.
Lets see, we have government takeover of the banks and GM, Obama on record wanting universal health care...
You're right Alpha, he's not a socialist. He's a fascist.
SuperAcornCommieNegroFacist
Scott M:
Kansas City has no doubt that Obama is a socialist by HIS definition. .
It's not a Rohrshack test. It's a word with en existing definition. The fact that the right wing is ignorant of this doesn't mean everyone gets to make up their own definition.
Way to double down on the stupid.
@Alphaliberal
"The guy supports capitalism. He bailed out bankers, for fuck's sake. A real socialist would be all "aha! the contradictions of capitalism cause it to collapse!"
Much like your misunderstanding of the actual definition of racism, from another thread, I think you've got your -isms a bit widdershins here.
A true capitalist, a person who accepts risk as part of the business cycle, would have let them fail or forced them into bankruptcy.
Yep, it's Jeremy.
Now that's just stupid.
A true capitalist, a person who accepts risk as part of the business cycle, would have let them fail or forced them into bankruptcy..
So Bush, who started the bank bailouts, and Republicans in congress who gave GM a handout and kicked the problem to Obama, are not true capitalists? *gasp* socialists?
@garage mahal
Finally...you're making sense.
Hoosier Daddy, proudly ignorant:
Lets see, we have government takeover of the banks and GM, Obama on record wanting universal health care... .
a) The (big) banks were not nationalized, or put into receivership. They were given public money . as an aid to them and now some of them are making profits. What, in your universe socialists love profits?
b) You (and other Republicans from districts with Japanese automakers) would prefer to see GM die. Well, that would do great damage to the economy when it was already teetering on the brink. Obama is returning it to full ownership ASAP.
c) The Obama health care plan keeps the health insurance companies in business.
You guys are both ignorant and hyperbolic.
He then goes on to say that if there is to be a fair debate on the topic, the participants need to agree on what socialism is. That's a good policy no matter what the topic is.
What's there to agree on? Socialism is pretty well a defined concept isn't it? If Alpha wants to deny that the State owning an automotive company and basically controlling the banking industry or government mandated and funded health care doesn't qualify as socialism then there isn't really much more to discuss.
Basically that is pretty much how debate on this blog has devolved to. To garage, Jeremy and Alphas nothing Obama does will ever change their attitudes or beliefs because they're complete ideologues. Depictions of Bush as Hitler or a chimp or calling him a Nazi and wishing for his assasination are just fine, a celebration of our free speech rights. Depictions of Obama as the Joker and calling him a socialist are racist, dangerous, offensive and shows a lack of respect.
That's why there is really no more point in engaging the other side when they can't even acknowledge their own hypocrisy over something so fucking obvious.
@Alphaliberl
"You guys are both ignorant and hyperbolic.
If that's true, why do you care and continue to post here? I'm honestly interested...
Scott M uses his own definitions again:
A true capitalist, a person who accepts risk as part of the business cycle, would have let them fail or forced them into bankruptcy. .
It's difficult to try and reason with a person who makes up new definitions to suit his needs as the debate proceeds.
Obama is a believer in the market system. Even his global warming action plan includes a market system - cap and trade.
And this was not just part of the business cycle. This crisis is beyond the damage of the business cycle and was inflicted by anti-regulation policies that allowed abuses on Wall St to continue for years.
Scott, to learn about the "thinking" going on with people who oppose the sort of values I hold dear, such as liberty and justice for all.
And I am not happy just going into some web corner filled with people who pretty much agree with me.
It's difficult to try and reason with a person who makes up new definitions to suit his needs as the debate proceeds.
I agree. That's why I would rather have a conversation with a rock than yourself.
@Alpha
I'm not debating anything about Obama or his policies on this topic. I'm saying that bailing a failing company out by giving them public money is closer to socialism than it is to capitalism. And to dovetail garage's comment, yes, I believe Bush falls into the same catagory on this.
This has nothing to do with whether it was necessary to avert a depression (highly debatable). I'm trying to figure out how you think bailing out a business is a capitalistic move.
So we have some harmony then, Bush and Republicans are socialists just like Democrats. Hooray!
@garage
Damn...you had to go and ruin the group hug. You can't lump all Republicans in with Bush, just like you can't lump all Democrats in with Obama (a fact that's become painfully obvious over the last few weeks).
I have always believed that, regardless of the topic, no one is better served by painting with broad brush strokes. I give free license to anyone to call me on it when I do, as I don't always catch myself. Stereotypes are, after all, intellectual laziness.
It's a lightbulb moment for the garage. It's only a matter of degree.
Still doesn't explain why tea baggers weren't protesting against the socialist Bush, and why they aren't protesting Republican town hall events now, but oh well.
Garage makes a good point.
Conservatives have been way too quiet when Bush and other big gov't Repub's have moved us toward Socialism - New drug bene's, auto bailouts, bank bailouts, no child left behind, etc.
Many of us spoke out. Too many didn't. Repub's who voted for these programs, bogus stimulus bills, bailouts, etc. should be protested and questioned.
So we have some harmony then, Bush and Republicans are socialists just like Democrats. Hooray!
You're getting it garage. Unless you have been willfully obtuse (most likely) you probably missed the fact that most conservatives were quite opposed to Bush and the GOP Congress wasting taxpayer monies just like liberal Dems.
I have no use for any pol who thinks that the way out of this economic crisis is to mire the nation into even more unsustainable debt. I consider such a person either a 1) complete ignoramous or 2) willfully trying to destroy the national economy. After reading Obambi's books and then seeing he sat through 20 years of hate America sermons I'm heavily leaning toward #2.
Honestly in the beginning I would have preferred your girl over him but alas, it seems she still needs her husband to get a simple diplomacy job done so I guess we were screwed either way.
Whether or not Obama is a socialist at heart, the people he's surrounding himself with, a seemingly endless parade of "czars", are truly concerning.
Alpha: re "keeping private health insurance:" google the economic term "crowding out" and try to get your atrophied brain around that concept.
Still doesn't explain why tea baggers weren't protesting against the socialist Bush, and why they aren't protesting Republican town hall events now, but oh well.
It's okay for Obama to burn down your house, because Bush once lit a match.
It would be nice if folks would define what exactly they mean by "socialist." The term seems to be used to mean anything the govt does or might do that I do not approve of but what they have done is ok if I approve of it.
Is the stimulous money socialist? Is federally insured bank insurance socialist? Medicare? price supports for farmers? G.I.Bill? health coverage for congress people? and on and on.
The posters of course are just from those who lost the election eating their liver and unable to get over the fact that they lost. Racist? I am not sure. hint: folks love the joker as much as Batman, so it will not work as intended.
Fred, I would add to your questions: "Is America's current fire fighting system socialist?"
garage,
Bush's bailout policies and out-of-control spending was hugely unpopular w/ conservatives. (Seriously, have you been paying any attention at all?) It's one of the main things that doomed McCain.
You are right, though, more should have spoke out. The amnesty issue was the only time they did that I can recall.
Look, over there - there's socialism! I can see it! But Obama, he's not a socialist. It's those firemen! I know it is!
And the only matches Obama lights are to spark his menthol lung stabbers. Your pussy socialist president is addicted to nicotine.
It's an interesting poster more for the "taste of their own medicine" aspect of it the left is going through, with the image going viral since Sunday, than it is for logical consistency between Obama's personality and the Joker's. But if it's not a one-time thing and people start doing copy-cat images of Obama like the left did for eight years with Bush, then it's just going to get boring and predictable.
Knox
Nobody was calling Bush and Republicans socialists though, like now, where it's almost every word out of conservatives mouths. And it's pretty pathetic seeing Republican governors make a huge stink out of the stimulus funds, their really opposed to it, they really want to resist it, then back home pose with pictures of big fat checks for projects as if they had something to do it with it. Eggh.
@garage mahal
Yeah, we were actually. But again, even given the Bush admin's abundance of incompetence, he wasn't trying to grab a huge percentage of the economy while at the same time reducing personal liberty and putting us into record-shattering debt.
I have no love for Dubya at all and, frankly, was willing to give Obama his due hoping he was going to bring the transparency and pragmatism he espoused during the campaign. Mainly, I didn't want that harpie he was running against in the Oval office, but that's another story.
I'm genuinely sorry that, so far, Obama has completely disappointed me by being neither transparent nor pragmatic.
hint: folks love the joker as much as Batman
That must be why they compared Bush to the Joker.
Is the stimulous money socialist?
I would say no. To me its more of a waste of money. Out of over $700 billion, under $30 billion was marked for so called shovel ready infrastructure.
Is federally insured bank insurance socialist?
Considering its funded by premiums paid by the banks I would say no.
Medicare? price supports for farmers? G.I.Bill? health coverage for congress people? and on and on.
Not every government program is bad nor is it socialist. When I see the government step in and take over a private corporation, flat out disregard federal bankruptcy laws, hire and fire the leadership, I call that socialist. When I see the federal government force banks to accept TARP money and then dictate to them, I'd call that socialist if not fascist.
It seems to me that the only time the left wants government out of their lives its when its over killing an unborn kid. Other than that, they seem to have no problem with the government dictating what kind of car we can drive, how much we should eat, how high our thermostat should be or how many kids we should have.
Yeah, we were actually. But again, even given the Bush admin's abundance of incompetence, he wasn't trying to grab a huge percentage of the economy while at the same time reducing personal liberty and putting us into record-shattering debt.
Forget record shattering debt, try we will never get out of it debt. When you combine the fed debt with Medicare and SS, we have more debt than the fucking GDP of the planet.
But to dumbfucks like Obama and his followers who think money is made from pixie dust, what's a couple more trillion here or there.
Other than that, they seem to have no problem with the government dictating what kind of car we can drive, how much we should eat, how high our thermostat should be or how many kids we should have..
When any of those scenarios actually do happen, why don't you come back and let us all know.
When any of those scenarios actually do happen, why don't you come back and let us all know.
Oh are you saying I shouldn't believe the things Obama says he's pushing for?
Reading comprehension garage. Try it sometime and get back to me.
Even if the government decides all those things plus how much health care we are allotted, keep in mind that none of it applies to the stooges in power. They get to keep the private jets, limos, healthcare, and cushy pensions, all paid for by dupes like garage.
garage doesn't think it's okay to stridently disagree with something until after it's enacted...by his own words yesterday.
If you think the gov is going to tell you what kind of car you can drive or how many kids to have, I'd say a month time-out from paranoid winger blogs is definitely in order.
If you think the gov is going to tell you what kind of car you can drive or how many kids to have, I'd say a month time-out from paranoid winger blogs is definitely in order
Actually garage I heard it right from your President's mouth. I know, I know, when he speaks you hear angels singing and the choirs of heaven so it was probably lost on you.
Nobody was calling Bush and Republicans socialists though, like now, where it's almost every word out of conservatives mouths.
You are conflating overspending with a government takeover of huge sectors of our economy--within a 6-month period of time.
And it's pretty pathetic seeing Republican governors make a huge stink out of the stimulus funds... then back home pose with pictures of big fat checks for projects as if they had something to do it with it. Eggh.
Agree. And you should know that one mistake liberals make is assuming that the whole "Tea Party" thing is just against democrats. It's not. Conservatives are disgusted with Republicans right now too. After all, they are really the ones who made possible the mess we're in now.
Garage, do you remember how much you hated taking the garbage out when you were a kid, but then dad gave you a few bucks to do it every week? It will be like that.
Or maybe in your house you had to be home at a certain time, and when you were even a little bit late...no allowance. It will be like that.
"We can't drive our SUVs and, you know, eat as much as we want and keep our thermostats on, you know, 72 degrees at all times, whether we're living in the desert on in the tundra. . ."
- from the little red book of Chairman O.
Do you really want your "dad" running the government? I thought you were much too grown up for that.
Do you really want your "dad" running the government? I thought you were much too grown up for that.
Well his mom got beat out in the primaries so he had to settle for the old man.
You are conflating overspending with a government takeover of huge sectors of our economy--within a 6-month period of time.
The whole idea of bailing out banks started with Bush, and Republicans, remember that? And bailing out car companies.
The whole idea of bailing out banks started with Bush, and Republicans, remember that? And bailing out car companies.
Yes. The Democrats had nothing to do with it. Not. one. thing.
Garage do you have more substantial counterpoint other than Booooosh did it tooooooo!
I mean it so third grade.
See garage bailouts are just like welfare. Conservatives don't like it when its 17 year old single moms with 4 kids or corporations with failing business models. I'm sure you were busy driving your environmentally unfriendly cars around and missed the fact that most conservatives were insisting that GM file Chapter 11 rather than suck more taxpayer money into its maw.
So yes, conservatives were insisting that failing companies be allowed to fail. That's what bankruptcy laws are for. At least they were until your boy decided that he don't need no stinkin federal law to take over a private company.
Republicans have, some of them, including Bush, voted for socialism on the installment plan.
It was wrong then and it's wrong now.
"They get to keep the private jets..."
They just ordered three more.
That's two more than the Pentagon requested. And they stipulated they be assigned to the Washington, D.C. area. Hmmm, I wonder who might be using those? There's another $200 million dollars of your money flying away.
"The whole idea of bailing out banks started with Bush, and Republicans, remember that? And bailing out car companies."
And now that Obama is president, if he thinks it's wrong (which it is) he can stop it. He has the veto, he has the bully pulpit, he has the power. But of course, he doesn't think it's wrong. He loves the idea of using the power the money provides. So he's not changing direction and correcting a mistake. He's doubling down on the mistake (or tripling). We've been saying that all along.
It all comes down to the simplest truism your mother ever taught you - two wrongs don't make a right. Just because a wrong started in a previous administration, during which there was a fully Democratic-controlled congress, by the way, that's no excuse for continuing it in the current administration. That argument doesn't provide cover. A majority of Republicans have always opposed it, no matter who was in power. Wrong is still wrong. You should listen to your mother.
AlphaLiberal asks
"Is America's current fire fighting system socialist?"
Sure. And I have no problem with that. Most of us, including most who oppose President Obama's healthcare reforms, are reasonable people who support social services when there is a compelling reason. In the case of fire protection, an uncontrolled fire on one person's property can easily spread to other properties.
Likewise, most of us do not oppose government involvement in healthcare when there is a true public interest, such as requiring vaccines. Personally, I'd be all for greater government regulation of antibiotics for those same reasons.
What many of us oppose is the government involvement for the sole purpose of taking from one person to give to another.
What many of us oppose is the government involvement for the sole purpose of taking from one person to give to another.
Lets take it a step further. I keep hearing all about the 'evil health insurance companies'. Ok how about government mandated and paid for homeowners insurance and auto insurance? I mean those are necessary things too. Oh and life insurance too. Why not just eliminate the insurance industry altogether and have life, health, auto and homeowner's insurance funded by the Federal guvmit. Honestly those are just as necessary as health insurance so why not?
"....Why not just eliminate the insurance industry altogether and have life, health, auto and homeowner's insurance funded by the Federal guvmit."
And for God's sakes don't forget dental. We need federal dental.
Heh, Obama is in Elkhart, IN right now giving folks a pep talk.
The irony of Mr. Cap and Trade trying to buck up the spirits of a town whose main industry is recreational vehicles is just overwhelming.
Hell he may as well go to West Virgnia next.
The failure of the left here to recognize and admit that Obama is creating a socialist economy (and therefore destroying it), is a failure that comes from "the implicit dogma of American liberalism," which inflexibly assumes that in any political drama "the liberal per se is the hero."
For Obama's supporters to admit his socialism also means admitting 'that mere liberal principle is not in itself a guarantee against evil; that the wrongdoer is not always the other -- "they" and not "us"; that there is no magic in the words "left" or "progressive" or "socialist" that can prevent deceit and abuse of power.'
It's a symptom of the anguish of the liberal mind and its unreasoning anger at being made to confront the facts of political life. When faced with 'the disorder and evil of history,' the pro-Obama faction will fight to save Obama 'in order to safeguard their own illusions'.
[cf Leslie Fieldler (via Sam Tanenhaus)]
The failure of the left here to recognize and admit that Obama is creating a socialist economy (and therefore destroying it), is a failure that comes from "the implicit dogma of American liberalism," which inflexibly assumes that in any political drama "the liberal per se is the hero." .
Like 0.21%?
I knew the right has always been paranoid, but wtf?
I see the federal government force banks to accept TARP money and then dictate to them, I'd call that socialist if not fascist.
What got me is when the president is involved in decided who is going to be president of a supposedly private company. Also, loan modifications. Those are different then the spendulus. That’s just wasting money, mostly.
Listen fuckface! I don't give a shit about the poster, at all. I really really don't. If you took my little swipe at Althouse as me being offended, then you're the little pussy who's projecting their delicate feelings, and that I can't help.
Wow. So your balls do come down from you body cavity from time to time. To bad they are as shriveled as the rest of your diseased mind. Keep weeping you little vagina. I'm sure a good dose of monostat 7 will cure what ails you.
Wow. So your balls do come down from you body cavity from time to time.
And I was born in Kenya!
@garage mahal
There you go again...
"I knew the right has always been paranoid, but wtf?"
I believe it is a leftist Democratic White House that just put out a request for people to report opposition to the health reform to their website.
Paranoia, much like racism, violence, and any number of social ills, has no political leaning, left or right.
What the idiotic left perceives as the right being paranoid is attributable solely to their shallow, one dimensional thinking as always. What they fail to see, that conservatives do see is the long term preparation and ground work being done by this administration to pave the way for a systematic take-over of the private sector. Not today, not tomorrow, but 20 to 30 years from now and they will do it sometimes in bigger chunks like they are now, but mostly in small incremental little bits to get them under the radar.
garage mahal said...
Wow. So your balls do come down from you body cavity from time to time.
And I was born in Kenya!
I could care less if you were hatched, you misbegotten troglodyte.
I believe it is a leftist Democratic White House that just put out a request for people to report opposition to the health reform to their website.
Just wait. It won't be long before you start hearing 'Papers please' before being allowed into a town hall meeting.
@Hoosier:
"Just wait. It won't be long before you start hearing 'Papers please' before being allowed into a town hall meeting."
Not that obvious. More like "due to limited seating" you will need a ticket to attend. Tickets will be available through the congressman's office upon 'request'. Voter registration rolls will help ferret out disorderly elements.
0.21% is bullshit, based on ignorance about what sociaism is.
For example, Medicare is far more than that number, and is socialism. Medicaid, too. National health care will be 17-20% of the entire economy.
The left relentlessly lies about socialism.
If socialism is so great, why does the left need to lie about it?
Not that obvious. More like "due to limited seating" you will need a ticket to attend. Tickets will be available through the congressman's office upon 'request'. Voter registration rolls will help ferret out disorderly elements.
True.
I still can't get over this administration getting the vapors over citizens 'speaking truth to power'. I'd like to challenge dickheads like Durbin to put up or shut the fuck up when they claim these people are plants and agitators sent in by health insurers. I mean these guys are really grasping when they have to resort to John Grishim level fiction as a comeback to legitimate criticism.
For example, Medicare is far more than that number, and is socialism.
You have to forgive garage Pogo. He's a liberal and math isn't a strong suit with them.
Case in point: There are currently 42 million Medicare beneficiaries. Medicare costs a tad shy of $500 billion a year.
Obambi says there are 47 million uninsured but somehow it will cost less than covering 42 million Medicare beneficiaries.
But like I said, math is not a strong suit to liberals. That's why they think $1 billion cash for clunker's program that was supposed to last until November and was pissed away in less than a week is a success.
I'm sure health care will be just fine. Just fine.
I just signed up for a Senator Clair McCaskill (D-MO) "Healthcare Listening Forum" for Tuesday in my county. No mention of any screening, but there was a mandatory field where I had to put in something I wanted to hear covered.
Jefferson County is just south of Saint Louis and heavily conservative. No necessarily Republican, but definitely conservative.
I just signed up for a Senator Clair McCaskill (D-MO) "Healthcare Listening Forum" for Tuesday in my county.
Well that explains it! Its a listening forum. I guess that means the voter is supposed act like good little childrens and listen and not be heard.
/smacks forehead
garage says to come talk to him when the government tells you what kind of car to drive showing just what level of ignorance is on display.
It already does.
Ever hear of CAFE standards? CAFE standards dictate what cars are manufactured and in what volumes which artificially distorts the market for cars and limits consumer choice. Let me know when you'd voluntarily choose to be driving a Smart car in a T-Bone or head-on collision versus an SUV because there are absolutely everybody knows that smaller, more fuel-efficient cars are better in every single way possible than larger vehicles, right?
As far as telling you how many kids to have, government funding of abortion on demand isn't horribly far away. Just because we're haven't gone to China's "One Child Policy" doesn't mean the government isn't already involving itself in the size of families. (Speaking of which the Chinese are currently reversing that policy and asking families to have an additional child because they now have a huge generational bubble which is threatening to overwhelm its economy. Kind of like what we have in this country right now, but an order of magnitude greater. This is the danger of the government engaging in social engineering. But Leftists never own the consequences of their policy prescriptions.)
garage says to come talk to him when the government tells you what kind of car to drive showing just what level of ignorance is on display..
Tell me what car you'd like to buy, but are unable to, since Obama took office.
Uh, Pontiacs?
Nah, just kidding, I would never buy a piece of shit made by Government Motors.
Keep rambling, grudge, you have us on the ropes.
Tell me what car you'd like to buy, but are unable to, since Obama took office.
Forget it Jim. garage isn't interested in an actual dialogue on the topic because since Obama hasn't signed legislation yet that will restrict such vehicles there is nothing for you to worry about. So just move along and quit being a paid mobster hired by BIG AUTO.
I'm interested in finding out what vehicles I'm being prevented from buying. NKVD came up with one. Hoosier? Jim?
@garage mahal
"Tell me what car you'd like to buy, but are unable to, since Obama took office."
I'll do you one better. The Constitution (you remember that document, right?) does not specifically mention a right of the people to drive cars. It does, however, prevent the government from abridging the right of the people to bear arms. We can go back and forth as much as you would like on the 2nd Amendment, but it is currently understood as an individual right, which I believe even the President said he agreed with. So, any abridgment of that right should be unconstitutional.
However, there are many (too many to list here) under-the-table policies quietly being put into place that do just that. However, they're going after ammo. Apparently taking policy ques now from Eddie Izzard (lol). Just try to find various ammunition calibers in any kind of volume.
Still waiting for those models....
How about any car under $4500, I am discommoded from buying, because say a ten year old car for $3000, perfectly driveable for who knows how long, might be worth more as scrap now.
Lotta perfectly useful cars out there, for people who might scrape up a few grand in cash, but can't or won't carry the weight of a new car purchase or lease. The cheapest car out there is well over ten thousand dollars. For less than half that, I can get a very nice used car, probably much better th an hat Yugo wannabe.
How about, any car that needs spare parts, because again, that other car that the junkyard can scavenge for a brake pad, side mirror, window, tranny, engine, etc., for my car, is now a cube of compressed metal somewhere.
If you want a list, go to the clunker website and look at the models there. They're not all clapped-out Edsels by any means. The freaking Mazda RX-8 (6 years old IIRC) that Glenn Reynolds drives, and loves, is on the list. Guess I won't be buying it used!
Now, is there any point in telling you this? Will you process the info I have given you? Will it change your thinking in any degree? Or will it be more mush from the wimp?
I'm actually very good at this. Give me a make and model you want to buy, and your budget, and I will find it for you. I can even steer you to the right place for the cheapest parts [used, OEM, or aftermarket]. Take the challenge! But be realistic on your price points.
On that RX-8, there are 1357 results (used) on Autotrader, 15 on Craiglist in Milwaukee, 15 in Chicago, and 4 in Madison. Those are the 3 I check regularly. Ebay is listing 73.
These are still available after the first week of Cash for Clunkers. Think Glenn Reynolds could have taken that 2 minutes and inform his readers? Nah
selling for what?
You said "I guess I won't be buying it used!". I gave you 1500 matches in less than 5 minutes from 3 sources. What do you want to pay?
There are also 6260 results for RX-8 (new, used, parts) for all of Craigslist. I'm pretty sure I could get you and Instawanker 10,000 hits on his beloved rice-burner, if so inclined.
garage,
1) if it is over the $4500 clunker price, it will probably continue to be available, what is the range of pricing on this car?
2) it's the first WEEK of the program, give it time!
3) the car doesn't have to be made unobtainable like plutonium for harm to be done, making it unobtainable like ice cream without carageenan and guar gum is bad enough.
4) why is that car a clunker, what maniac rates that a clunker?
Aside from the point we are talking about here, do you claim some auto experience/knowledge beyond craigslist/google-fu?
I'd like to know what are best bets for a car around $3000, a 4-door, reliable, good for a bunch more miles; "lagom" - adequate, decently roomy and with other car virtues if possible. It would be nice if it were new enough to have more modern features, a 2000 or later would seem best.
Meanwhile, what are choices today, what were they a few months ago before the clunkers plan, what will there be in six months or a year?
BTW - this was $1B in a week. Do we really want to subsidize the car companies to the tune of $50B a year? Really?
Nichevo
There are tons of options for a 4 door sedan for 3-4k. I like German cars myself, so I would steer you to any 5 series BMW, preferably E34 body (1990-96). Bulletproof motors, safe, roomy and a blast to drive.
I'll concede some of these clunkers being scrapped won't be available for used parts, but really, how many people shop at salvage yards for parts? I have, and I'm not knocking it at all. But those models being scrapped are still available at most salvage yards.
garage -
"Tell me what car you'd like to buy, but are unable to, since Obama took office."
It's nice that you can go on pretending like CAFE standards have no impact on the marketplace. But CAFE standards didn't start with the Obama administration now, did they?
You want to set an artificial timeline starting January 20 which is completely dishonest: but then, why should I expect honesty from someone challenging a simple statement of fact?
You're trying to play games with your blatantly dishonest formulation, and I'm not in the mood to play along with your juvenile antics.
How many cars aren't on the road today because manufacturers never marketed them? How about the pricing distortions caused by CAFE regulations which artificially places higher prices on lower mileage vehicles?
In your world, none of that exists. CAFE standards have no impact on the choices available to consumers and they are meaningless to changing consumer behavior. Since that's your position, then I expect that your next post will be advocating repeal of the meaningless CAFE standards since they are completely ineffectual and neither manufacturers nor consumers are affected in anyway.
Or are you just being pedantic?
Yeah...thought so.
Go play your games with someone else.
garage -
"But those models being scrapped are still available at most salvage yards."
No they're not. The engines are required to be destroyed. So, by definition, they're not available.
Why do you and Obama hate poor people who can't afford new cars and have to get their parts from salvage yards?
The engines are required to be destroyed. So, by definition, they're not available.
Aside from the money issue, this program just seems so incredibly wasteful that it bothers me. I’m surprised that all these “recycle, reuse, re somethingorother” people don’t see that. I mean, we're spending a bunch of money to destroy things, so they can't be "recycled, reused, resomethingorothered".
No they're not. The engines are required to be destroyed. So, by definition, they're not available.
I meant those same models already in scrap yards Einstein.
Why do you and Obama hate poor people who can't afford new cars and have to get their parts from salvage yards?.
I'll pose the same question, what used part are you looking for, and I will find one available closest to you in your area.
The clash for clunkers is a classic economic fallacy known as "the Broken Window", described 150 years ago as a major error in thinking.
In short, it is always a net negative to destroy capital, even if done in order to 'make new business'.
It's economic stupidity.
Doesn't Krugman have an economcs background? Maybe he's read about it.
Read about it here.
Meanwhile, garage, why would anybody sell me any car for $3000 when they could sell it to "clunkers 'r' us" for $4500?
Probably a variety of reasons, not everyone is looking to buy a new car, for one. I would probably never buy a new car.
It's nice that you can go on pretending like CAFE standards have no impact on the marketplace.
Jim, to liberals CAFE standards are how they measure up coffee shops. The cafe here is spendid don't you think? So much better than that place across the tracks. --Tracks? Haven't those been outlawed as environmentally unsound???? ARRRAGJWWH*@&@*&))!
But seriously folks
See garage lives in a world where he doesn't believe in man made global warming (evidenced by his own words and cars he proudly drives) but devoutly supports a President who does and is trying his darndest to get legislation that will further cripple the American ecomomy and is only upset that the cost of gas rose too fast.
See garage lives in a world where Obama doesn't restrict the kind of cars we'll drive but will do his darndest to get legislation passed that will pretty much put eveyone in oversived mobile cupholders.
See garage lives in a world where '47 million uninsured folks' means we need to add yet a 4th federal health care program that will end up costing a few trillion more taxpayer dolllars but it will have no effect on the rest of us.
Garage lives in a world where the only patriotic dissent is when a Republican is in office. Otherwise they're mobs, or 5th Columns paid by BIG HEALTH INSURANCE or agitators who need to be reported to Reichsmarshall Emmanual.
Garage lives in a world where despite what the President says out loud to the American people, it really means nothing until it is actually made into law.
I guess it boils down to the red pill or the blue one. Take your pick Neo.
Speaking of "jokers." (Maybe Princess Sarah can take this over):
A federal judge has cleared the way for the government's seizure of a creationism theme park in Pensacola owned by a couple convicted of tax fraud.
A ruling by U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers states that the nine properties that make up Dinosaur Adventure Land as well as two bank accounts associated with the park will be used to satisfy $430,400 owed to the federal government.
Kent Hovind, who founded the park and a ministry, Creation Science Evangelism, is serving 10 years in federal prison for failing to pay the Internal Revenue Service more than $470,000 in employee taxes.
He was found guilty in November 2006 on 58 counts, including failure to pay employee taxes and making threats against investigators.
The conviction culminated 17 years of Hovind sparring with the IRS. Saying he was employed by God and his ministers were not subject to payroll taxes, he claimed no income or property. Hovind is incarcerated at the Edgefield Federal Correction Institution in South Carolina.
The wing nuts here just can-not-stand the fact that the "clunker" program is working.
Just can-not-stand the fact that somebody, somewhere just might agree with Obama or reap the rewards of a program he initiated.
Nothing but little crybabies, whining and bitching every single day of the week.
What a bunch of losers.
Garage:I'll pose the same question, what used part are you looking for, and I will find one available closest to you in your area.
Not for long, if they keep this program up. Use your brain.
Our family doesn't "do" new cars. Or even almost new "pre-owned." So we have to go into significant DEBT to be green?
This is the biggest shaft to the lower middle class there could be. (That and the discontinuing of the sale of plain vanilla standard definition digital TVs. Cheapest -- CHEAPEST - new TV at Wal-Mart is $178. College kids used to be able to pick up one for $100.)
We ARE the quintessential re-cyclers who were recycling way before Ariana was a Republican's wife. Thanks for nothing.
Scott M said...
I just signed up for a Senator Clair McCaskill (D-MO) "Healthcare Listening Forum" for Tuesday in my county. No mention of any screening, but there was a mandatory field where I had to put in something I wanted to hear covered.
Jefferson County is just south of Saint Louis and heavily conservative. No necessarily Republican, but definitely conservative.
If you get the chance, you might want to remind Senator McCaskill that she works for you and you are her boss and if does do what you say like a subordinate should, that the consequences of her actions will come in the form of her immediate firing.
Our family doesn't "do" new cars. Or even almost new "pre-owned." So we have to go into significant DEBT to be green?.
I don't either. I just bought a $1200 car off Craigslist [and sold one]. It was an absolute steal, you just have to buy sharp and do your homework. Really, is there a constraint on used cars in America? That's laughable.
JAL said..."This is the biggest shaft to the lower middle class there could be."
Based on WHAT, the head of your dick talking to you?
You're not required to buy anything.
It's merely an offer, based on getting a discount and getting gas guzzlers off the road.
You and others act as if the big bad "GOVERNMENT" is forcing people at gunpoint to buy cars.
It's working...and Obama is President...get over it.
@Hoosier, point of order Sir! What is the source of the 47 million number? Why do you believe it?
The wing nuts here just can-not-stand the fact that the "clunker" program is working.
It takes a special idiot to say that a program that was budgeted for (cue Dr. Evil voice) $1 billion and was to last until Novemver, ran out of money in five days and they had to go running to the Chicoms for another $2 billion is a success.
In the real world that is what is called a catastrophic cost overrun or a total fuckup.
In the land of pixie dust and unicorns that garage and Jeremy live in its a sign of success. Because they simply can't believe so many people would line up for free money.
Let me be clear, this is the same government that is telling you that insuring 47 million people with taxpayer dollars will actually save money.
Big Mike said..."@Hoosier, point of order Sir! What is the source of the 47 million number? Why do you believe it?"
National Coalition On Healthcare:
Who are Who are the uninsured?
* Nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, the latest government data available.1
* The number of uninsured rose 2.2 million between 2005 and 2006 and has increased by almost 8 million people since 2000.1
* The large majority of the uninsured (80 percent) are native or naturalized citizens.2
* The increase in the number of uninsured in 2006 was focused among working age adults. The percentage of working adults (18 to 64) who had no health coverage climbed from 19.7 percent in 2005 to 20.2 percent in 2006.1 Nearly 1.3 million full-time workers lost their health insurance in 2006.
* Nearly 90 million people – about one-third of the population below the age of 65 spent a portion of either 2006 or 2007 without health coverage.3
* Over 8 in 10 uninsured people come from working families – almost 70 percent from families with one or more full-time workers and 11 percent from families with part-time workers.2
* The percentage of people (workers and dependents) with employment-based health insurance has dropped from 70 percent in 1987 to 62 percent in 2007. This is the lowest level of employment-based insurance coverage in more than a decade.4, 5
* In 2005, nearly 15 percent of employees had no employer-sponsored health coverage available to them, either through their own job or through a family member.6
* In 2007, 37 million workers were uninsured because not all businesses offer health benefits, not all workers qualify for coverage and many employees cannot afford their share of the health insurance premium even when coverage is at their fingertips.1
* The number of uninsured children in 2007 was 8.1 million – or 10.7 percent of all children in the U.S.1
* Young adults (18-to-24 years old) remained the least likely of any age group to have health insurance in 2007 – 28.1 percent of this group did not have health insurance.1
* The percentage and the number of uninsured Hispanics increased to 32.1 percent and 15 million in 2007.1
* Nearly 40 percent of the uninsured population reside in households that earn $50,000 or more.1 A growing number of middle-income families cannot afford health insurance payments even when coverage is offered by their employers.
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