Althouse: "What does it cost to get an unqualified student into the University of Illinois law school? "

June 26, 2009

"What does it cost to get an unqualified student into the University of Illinois law school? "

"Five jobs for graduating law students, suggest internal e-mails released Thursday.... When Law School Dean Heidi Hurd balked on accepting the applicant in April 2006, [University of Illinois Chancellor Richard] Herman replied that the request came "Straight from the G. My apologies. Larry has promised to work on jobs (5). What counts?" Hurd replied: 'Only very high-paying jobs in law firms that are absolutely indifferent to whether the five have passed their law school classes or the Bar.' Hurd's e-mail suggests that students getting the jobs are to be those in the 'bottom of the class.' Law school rankings depend in part on the job placement rate of graduates."

The G = (apparently) Blagojevich.

Devastating.

(Via TaxProf.)

154 comments:

Freeman Hunt said...: Yow. How embarrassing.; 6/26/09, 11:08 AM
Unknown said...: how totally corrupt!; 6/26/09, 11:15 AM
Automatic_Wing said...: Amazingly brazen corruption even by Illinois standards.

And to record your corruption in e-mails is Blago-like stupidity. Don't these lawyers know anything about computers?; 6/26/09, 11:15 AM
I'm Full of Soup said...: So the law school dean barters school slots in exchange for jobs at very good firms for her worst graduates? Is that how I should interpret it?

It sounds like a conveyor belt for rejects- in with the bad and out with the bad.; 6/26/09, 11:15 AM
KCFleming said...: "Political pressure, power, money shall not be the basis for admission to a public university," Dorris said."

Oh, quite wrong.
And get ready.

Political pressure, power, money, and connections will be the basis for how all of the economy is going to operate within ten years.

The Founders envisioned how small government with an open market permits merit to succeed for the benefit of all, and how precisely this sort of corruption might undo it all.

No we'll get the feudal society all over again, thanks to the Democrats.; 6/26/09, 11:16 AM
traditionalguy said...: We are watching the establishment of an Aristocracy in America. The Democrats and their king Obama and his court called the Democratic Leaders in Congress, and the courtiers called the Media. George Washington did not expect to see this European system in the United States. But it is here and working to destroy its natural foes, such as Sarah Palin.; 6/26/09, 11:21 AM
Arturius said...: We are watching the establishment of an Aristocracy in America

This may come as a newsflash but there has been one here since the ink was dry on the Declaration of Independence.; 6/26/09, 11:24 AM
Anonymous said...: Paging Captain Renault! Captain Renault, we're ready for your close-up!; 6/26/09, 11:27 AM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Let me bash the lawyers and the legal system while we are at it.

It took about 3-4 years for Congressman Jefferson to go to trial. He was the one who hid $100,000 in bribes in his fridge.

How long will it take for the stinking, putrid scuzbag crook Blagovech to go to trial?; 6/26/09, 11:30 AM
Arturius said...: A further point to the aristocracy meme, I will say we are probably at the edge of where democacy as we understand it will go by the wayside. Elected officials have been beholden to special interests since the concept of the ballot; however, we are now at a point where the majority; those who pay no or under $1000 in Federal taxes are essentially supported by a minority of taxpaying citizens, and it is that gap which will bring the downfall of the Republic.

That may be considered hyperbole but I stand by it. If you take all of the national debt and unfunded liabilties of SS, Medidcare, Medicaid and individual state obligations, the average taxpayer is on the hook for $250K give or take a few thousand. Oh and that's before Cap & Trade and health care is factored in.

I keep waiting for the public at large to sit up and take notice of this but I suppose its asking too much from a populace that is too busy mourning an 80s has been.; 6/26/09, 11:33 AM
The Drill SGT said...: Just think of them as Democratic Legacy applicants :); 6/26/09, 11:33 AM
Jeremy said...: traditionalguy said..."We are watching the establishment of an Aristocracy in America. The Democrats and their king Obama and his court called the Democratic Leaders in Congress, and the courtiers called the Media."

What does this story, in any way, shape or form, have to do with the "Democrats" or President Obama??

Are you saying it's ONLY the Democrats who are involved in such matters? That Obama somehow was instrumental in this situation?

It's one thing to complain about what these people were doing, but why do YOU and others here always have to take that quantum leap into wingnut land?; 6/26/09, 11:35 AM
section9 said...: One of the great Lies of "Progressivism" is that it would allow for the establishment of a roughly egalitarian society.

Bollocks.

Progressivism depends on a Nomenklatura to run things. Milovan Djilas wrote of this in his description of how things worked in the Soviet system, "The New Class". Obama is part and parcel of that Nomenklatura. The key for conservatives to understand is this: so was the Bush family. Reagan was probably the last, genuine populist conservative to get the Founding and what it was meant to be.

Modern progressivism is meant to establish gleischaltung, the ingathering of power into the Federal State and the dimunition of State's rights relative to the Federal Government and individual rights in general.

The thing is, the dime store blackshirts who run the Democratic Party are not fascists in any real sense of the word. It is important to understand that they mean well. They simply believe that the Constitution has passed its usefulness as a document to be taken seriously.

And at the top is an elite which means well, but an elite which understands that the rules are different for them. For example, does anyone really believe that Big Hollywood, the Beltway Democrats, and the people who gave big money to Obama are going to tolerate waiting six months for a CAT scan? Not on your life. It will be on-demand health care for the Nomenklatura, and rationing for the rest of us.

Power is what matters, power to be exercised for the Greater Good. Of course, the Founders foresaw that this would lead to Caesarism and tyrrany, but that's another debate.; 6/26/09, 11:36 AM
Issob Morocco said...: Prof. Althouse, how does the system work at Wisco?

What is devastating is that this type of activity is not crushed by folks of all stripes. It goes far beyond Law School admission here in Illinois. I am just curious if you see pressures at your school, to slip someone in the back door.
Thanks!; 6/26/09, 11:39 AM
former law student said...: Belated kudos to the University of Texas, for rejecting George W. Bush's application to their law school, forcing him to go to Harvard Business School. Not that clout had any influence over his admission there; one would expect UT Law to have much higher standards.; 6/26/09, 11:47 AM
chickelit said...: What does it cost to get an unequalified student into the University of Illinois law school?

It cost that school its integrity--priceless!; 6/26/09, 11:52 AM
Jeremy said...: FLS - Right on.

As if Harvard was champing at the bit to lure G.W. into the fold.

And let's not forget John McCain...proud graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy...who coincidentally followed his father and grandfather, both four-star admirals.

And remember, this intellectual giant graduated 894th out of 899.; 6/26/09, 11:54 AM
MadisonMan said...: The cesspool that is Illinois.

I wonder how this will affect the UofI's rankings next year.; 6/26/09, 11:56 AM
Jim Hu said...: Here at Texas A&M, we skip the admissions part and go straight to doomed joint ventures with the failing companies of campaign contributors.; 6/26/09, 11:56 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Prof. Althouse, how does the system work at Wisco?"

I've never seen anything like that (even an attempt). Not from my perspective, and I've worked on Admissions a lot.; 6/26/09, 11:57 AM
Jeremy said...: MadisonMan said..."The cesspool that is Illinois."

Yeah...thank God this type of behavior is confined to Illinois.

Funny stuff.; 6/26/09, 12:04 PM
Balfegor said...: So the law school dean barters school slots in exchange for jobs at very good firms for her worst graduates? Is that how I should interpret it?

It sounds like a conveyor belt for rejects- in with the bad and out with the bad.

This sounds like an excellent deal for the University of Illinois's worst law students. They're clearly getting good value for their money. Not so much for taxpayers, though -- is University of Illinois state supported?

Anyhow, these SI students clearly underperformed their more qualified classmates, but an average SI 2.86 GPA vs. an average normal student 3.2 GPA isn't actually a crippling gap. That's what, B- vs. B+? I'd guess it's roughly on par with the gap you see for athletic admits vs. normal students, maybe even smaller. Note how the article blithely repeats Dorris' assertion that "exceptions can be made for some applicants with subpar academic records, such as athletes" as though athletic prowess is a key indicator of future lawyer quality -- I don't see the mechanism for that. I don't even see the pragmatic rationale for athletic admits in law school -- college sports brings in money for many schools, so even if you're admitting students who cannot do their schoolwork, the school/taxpayers are at least getting something out of it, by exploiting the athletes. But who watches law school athletics? Does that even exist?

I also think the University of Illinois may regret whatever record Hurd has been putting together on how badly these admittees with subpar qualifications perform in law school, if they ever get sued for discriminating against Asians and Whites in their affirmative action program.; 6/26/09, 12:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Power is what matters, power to be exercised for the Greater Good...

As it has been said: many desire great power to do good, but few are good enough to deserve such power.; 6/26/09, 12:06 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: The majority of the commenters here are comdemning this "admissions" practice on a non-partisan basis.

So why does anyone feel the need to bring up Bush and McCain? Are you defending the Univ Of Illinois cause Blago is a Dem?; 6/26/09, 12:07 PM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: Makes you wonder how our president rose to the top so fast.

Remember there was a charge that Obama was never vetted from Hillary Clinton.; 6/26/09, 12:07 PM
traditionalguy said...: Jeremy...You have a point. The northeastern traditions of an aristocracy from the Federalist Party era, such as the Bush clan, are in the GOP. The scots-irish traditions as seen in the Palin clan are anathema to that wing of the GOP who call them fundamentalists and uneducated dummies only capable of winning beauty contests. There is a democratic/aristocratic division that Party labels do not tract, and you are correct to point that out.Not that there is anything wrong with an aristocratic kingdom so long as you are an insider, like that young aristocrat who got his lawschool admission comped in Illinois. Its weakness comes when the people need to support their government in a war or other crisis. Then the kingdom is NOT theirs and they will not give anymore than the secret police and extortionist fixers can get out of the their property with threats and bribes. That is not much as compared to what a Scot-Irish democract ruled people will freely give for THEIR country and a courageous leader that they "know" has the character that will not sell them out.; 6/26/09, 12:11 PM
former law student said...: why does anyone feel the need to bring up Bush

State law schools other than Illinois's are impervious to clout; W. was the test case.

Often law schools seem to take a gamble on students who don't meet their usual standards, however. Blago went to Pepperdine.; 6/26/09, 12:16 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: And remember, this intellectual giant graduated 894th out of 899.

Interesting because I don't recall McCain or anyone else referring to him as some kind of genius. Then again graduating at the bottom of the class of Annapolis isn't exactly the same as graduating at the bottom of a community college now is it? I'd say its much like coming in last in the Tour de France. You may be last but you're still better than 98% of the cyclists in the world.; 6/26/09, 12:17 PM
bearbee said...: He said exceptions can be made for some applicants with subpar academic records, such as athletes...

Why?

And how does a gov putting the arm on U officials on behalf of a donor to allow a subpar entrant radically differ from a congress critter putting the arm on banks on behalf of donors to make loans to applicants who don't meet loan qualifications?

SOP; 6/26/09, 12:19 PM
former law student said...: That is not much as compared to what a Scot-Irish democrat ruled people will freely give for THEIR country

Wow. If the Scotch-Irish make the best Presidents, let's try to get Rev. Ian Paisley over here.; 6/26/09, 12:21 PM
The Drill SGT said...: OT:

For example, does anyone really believe that Big Hollywood, the Beltway Democrats, and the people who gave big money to Obama are going to tolerate waiting six months for a CAT scan? Not on your life. It will be on-demand health care for the Nomenklatura, and rationing for the rest of us.

I was thinking somethin similar earlier today. I think the people should rise up and revolt if the Congress doesn't abolish the Federal Employee Health Plan in favor of putting all Feds, including the POTUS and the Congress into the Public Plan, or Medicare.; 6/26/09, 12:26 PM
The Drill SGT said...: And remember, this intellectual giant graduated 894th out of 899

Here's how wiki, that VRWC describes it:

Following in the footsteps of his father and grandfather, McCain entered the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis. There, he was a friend and informal leader for many of his classmates,[10] and sometimes stood up for targets of bullying.[5] He also became a lightweight boxer.[11] McCain came into conflict with higher-ranking personnel, he did not always obey the rules, and that contributed to a low class rank (894 of 899), despite a high IQ.[10][12] He did well in academic subjects that interested him, such as literature and history, but studied only enough to pass subjects he struggled with, such as mathematics.[5][13] McCain graduated in 1958.

smart, but rebellious.

OK Jerry, your point was?; 6/26/09, 12:31 PM
traditionalguy said...: FLS... Anyone can join the tradition of the Scots-Irish, who incidentally are not Irish. Think either Presbyterian or Baptist culture depending on the education level of the families. An example that comes to mind is Dick Winters who was the focus of much of Ambrose's book and HBO series called The Band of Brothers about men from the Greatest Generation. In that true story the Aristocratic tradition was present in Col. Sobel, who was only in the way when real leadership was needed.; 6/26/09, 12:34 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/26/09, 12:35 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: OK Jerry, your point was?

The only point Jeremy has is his skull which allows a perfect fit for his dunce cap; 6/26/09, 12:37 PM
Dr Weevil said...: Since The Drill SGT has already addressed the class rank canard, I will just point out Jeremy's other display of gross ignorance. When McCain "followed his father and grandfather" to the Naval Academy in 1954, they were not "both four-star admirals". His grandfather was, though he had been dead for nine years, and his father was still a captain. John S. McCain Jr wasn't promoted to Rear Admiral until after John S. McCain III graduated in 1958.; 6/26/09, 12:44 PM
traditionalguy said...: Jeremy's point of democratic traditions being represented in both GOP and Democrat parties is valid. The Senator from virginia named Webb comes to mind. His political career started under Reagan, but he resisted the Bush family's views to the point that he turned into a southern democrat Senator, like Zel Miller of Georgia had bee. We will see how well that plays out for him in the dark days of King Obama's reign ahead.; 6/26/09, 12:44 PM
Anonymous said...: I agree with Arturius.

This illustrates the underlying rot in the social democrat paradigm. Someone is always in charge; someone opens the purse and distributes the goodies--that someone is corruptible.

The only solution is to keep their hands off the purse.; 6/26/09, 12:46 PM
Jeremy said...: AJ Lynch said..."So why does anyone feel the need to bring up Bush and McCain? Are you defending the Univ Of Illinois cause Blago is a Dem?"

I'm referring to the people who apparently think this ONLY happens in Illinois or is somehow related to Democrats and Obama.

It's not that difficult to understand.; 6/26/09, 1:02 PM
Jeremy said...: traditionalguy said..."We will see how well that plays out for him in the dark days of King Obama's reign ahead."

And once again, you just can't post a comment without roping Obama into your whining and bitching.

What does Obama have to do with this type of thing, whether it be via Democrat or a Republicans?

Other than you just being petty?; 6/26/09, 1:04 PM
Jeremy said...: PatCA said..."This illustrates the underlying rot in the social democrat paradigm."

What does that mean?

The "democrat paradigm??"; 6/26/09, 1:05 PM
Hoosier Daddy said...: What does that mean?

The "democrat paradigm??"

Here let me help you out Jeremy.

www.websters.com

Them big words can be a real bitch sometimes.; 6/26/09, 1:06 PM
Jeremy said...: Dr Weevil said..."When McCain "followed his father and grandfather" to the Naval Academy in 1954, they were not "both four-star admirals".

Wikipedia: "McCain followed his father and grandfather, both four-star admirals, into the United States Navy, graduating from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1958."

I understand exactly how he got in.

And I also don't think he would have had a snowball's chance in hell if not for the legacy.

Do YOU think the Naval Academy was dying to have someone who ended up graduating 6 from the bottom as a new student?

Drill Sgt - I think it's wonderful McCain was "rebellious," but he did graduate 894th out of 899.

If you think that's some kind of tremendous achievement, that's up to you. Personally, I would prefer a graduate in the upper 10 percentile versus the very bottom level.; 6/26/09, 1:11 PM
Jeremy said...: Hoosier - I understand what both words mean.

Explain how they're tied together and in any way relate to this thread.; 6/26/09, 1:12 PM
Jeremy said...: Hoosier, I thought you weren't going to engage me anymore?

Memory course not paying off?

Pull that corn cob out of your ass and move on.; 6/26/09, 1:13 PM
traditionalguy said...: McCain came from the military's version of a disfunctional family caused by the father always being MIA in the son's life. McCain is half nuts. But what he does have is guts. His granfather, Slew McCain, made it thru on guts, loyalty to his superiors and good common sense. He used those qualities to personally save the Marines toe hold on Guadalcanal.The grandson has those same qualities. But politics is a hell of a lot more complex than a war in which the enemy is known and killing the enemy is the clear goal.; 6/26/09, 1:20 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Many many low-ranking grads of the military & naval academies have gone on to have stellar careers. Go figure.; 6/26/09, 1:21 PM
Jeremy said...: AJ Lynch said..."Many many low-ranking grads of the military & naval academies have gone on to have stellar careers. Go figure."

I agree, but this thread is related to how they got in in the first place.

People using influence to get their kids, relatives, friends and business associates into colleges, jobs and positions of authority is as old as the hills and it's not going to stop.; 6/26/09, 1:33 PM
Issob Morocco said...: Thanks Prof. Althouse!

Glad to hear this seems to be confined to the Land Of Corruption.; 6/26/09, 1:36 PM
traditionalguy said...: Jeremy...Valid question, and the answer is that Obama's men are in power today. It was Bush's men in power in 2004-2008, and then the same questions could be asked and were asked by Pelossi among others. Bush used the War as his excuse, and Pelossi said that's wrong since it was Bush's choice to go to war in the first place. We cannot resolve that one here, but the Obama and his men are currently the ones quickly passing massive socialism to buy votes and destroy all JTP type of enterprise in the USA. Maybe it is inevitable, since the computers are now able to run a Socialistic command economy that some one tries it out. But history teaches us that it will lead us into poverty, foreign conquests, and the Gulags. So let's fight back whether the Supreme Leader is named Obama or the next Bush. If Palin can wrest the GOP nomination from the Bushite wing of the GOP, then she will easily defeat the Kenyan King.; 6/26/09, 1:40 PM
Jeremy said...: Blogger Issob Morocco said..."Thanks Prof. Althouse! Glad to hear this seems to be confined to the Land Of Corruption."

Uh-huh.; 6/26/09, 1:40 PM
Shanna said...: So the law school dean barters school slots in exchange for jobs at very good firms for her worst graduates? Is that how I should interpret it?

Seriously. That sounds pretty damn bad.

I just don't see why people think that Obama would come out of that kind of a political atmosphere and not be kind of crooked.; 6/26/09, 1:42 PM
Balfegor said...: Thanks Prof. Althouse!

Glad to hear this seems to be confined to the Land Of Corruption.

I'm pretty sure it's not. Unlike most state schools, which are stuck using comparatively objective factors like grades and test scores, many private schools are free to perform a holistic review of each candidate, including key intangibles like "how much money did his parents donate to the school last year."

And of course, even though I said state schools are generally less corruptible, the University of California is probably an exception. They've faced accusations of doing the same thing -- accusations that, frankly, I find entirely credible. It being California, and all.; 6/26/09, 1:44 PM
Jeremy said...: traditional - "...the Obama and his men are currently the ones quickly passing massive socialism to buy votes and destroy all JTP type of enterprise in the USA."

First of all, it's President Obama, not "the" Obama.

Second, you base this drivel on his first 5 months in office? And he's "passing massive socialism" all by his lonesome?

Third, if you're sooooooo much against "socialism," can we assume you and no one in your entire family or any of your friends are currently or in the future going to take advantage of Medicare or Medicaid or Veteran's Benefits or Unemployment or Social Security or any of the other "massive" socialistic programs provided or co-funded and overseen by the government?

Is that what you're saying?; 6/26/09, 1:47 PM
Jim said...: There's no point in arguing with troll-boy about McCain.

He has absolutely zero proof that McCain was admitted to the Naval Academy: he just wants to use inference and accusation as proof of his point.

Showing him that his initial assertion was incorrect about the ranking being proof of lack of intelligence was wrong should have been enough to show you that he is not, and never does, argue in good faith.

Leftists will always been clean, pure and virtuous. Anyone to the right of Che Guevara is both evil and stupid. You can derive every "argument" he makes from that supposition. He's predictable. He's juvenile. And he's wrong 99% of the time.

Don't waste your time with him. Just give him a cookie and remind him that his mother still wants her smokes.; 6/26/09, 1:48 PM
Jim said...: correction

"That McCain was admitted to the Naval Academy based on "legacy"..."; 6/26/09, 1:49 PM
Jeremy said...: Shanna said..."I just don't see why people think that Obama would come out of that kind of a political atmosphere and not be kind of crooked."

"...that kind of political atmosphere"??

Are you daft? And where have you ever read where Obama was ever involved in anything of the sort?

Could you provide some details?

And you think this only takes place in Illinois? You think no other Republican or Democratic politicos in other areas of the country have ever done exactly the same thing for contributors or locally based corporations or friends or relatives?

Even YOU can't be that dense.; 6/26/09, 1:52 PM
Jeremy said...: Jim said..."He has absolutely zero proof that McCain was admitted to the Naval Academy: he just wants to use inference and accusation as proof of his point."

Well, I know for sure he was admitted, and if you don't think it was based on "legacy" you're dumber that I thought...and really takes some doing.

You probably also think G.W. wasn't a legacy admission either.; 6/26/09, 1:54 PM
traditionalguy said...: If the U. of Illinois is only half corrupt by resisting the Tyrants in the Party to a point, should that encourage or discourage us? Politics is a trade off. The answer is that the voters are not righteous,but bought and paid for.Give the Government less moneyand they buy less votes. That was Reagan's method and it worked for four years. Then the prosperity boom it caused blew out the restraints and the Republicans lost control of the Senate.; 6/26/09, 1:55 PM
Jeremy said...: Jim said..."Showing him that his initial assertion was incorrect..."

In what way, Jimmy?

John McCain attended the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis and received his BS in 1958.

He didn't flunk out, graduating in 1958 at the bottom of his class of almost 900. His class rank was 894 of 899; 6/26/09, 1:56 PM
Jim said...: Jeremy -

Provide proof or shut up.

Just because you level an accusation doesn't make it true.

Now go get your cookie.; 6/26/09, 1:57 PM
Jeremy said...: Jimmy - "Leftists will always been clean, pure and virtuous."

Well, you finally got something right.

Thank you.; 6/26/09, 1:57 PM
Jeremy said...: Jim - Are you actually saying you don't believe McCain graduated 694 out of 699?

Are you REALLY sticking with that?; 6/26/09, 1:58 PM
Jim said...: Jeremy -

You know damn well we're talking about your accusation that McCain only got into the USNA based on legacy. Don't try to change the subject because you're too cowardly to admit that you have zero proof of your assertion.

Show the proof or shut up. And since we both know you don't have any, you can just go ahead and shut up.

Your cookie's getting stale, and your mom said you're in timeout for lying so no more talking to you.; 6/26/09, 2:01 PM
Dr Weevil said...: Poor stupid Jeremy quotes an imprecise statement from one Wikipedia article to argue that he knows "exactly how" John S. McCain got into the Naval Academy, namely by family influence. He's apparently too lazy, too stupid, or too dishonest -- not that these are mutually exclusive -- to check the biographies of his father and grandfather to see that (just as I wrote) JSM Jr was only a captain when JSM III went to the Naval Academy, and JSM Sr (whose 4th star was posthumous, by the way) had been dead for nine years.

He also insists that McCain's class rank proves that he was stupid rather than lazy or disruptive, despite the express statements in Wikipedia that McCain did the minimum amount of work in classes he disliked and that his class rank was lowered for disciplinary reasons. (Gee, do you think the grandson of a war hero and 4-star admiral might have been targeted for hazing a bit more than your average plebe?); 6/26/09, 2:07 PM
Jeremy said...: Jim, so you think McCain just up and decided to go to the Naval Academy, huh?

And you think he rolled in on his own...no legacy involved? Just a wild coincidence dad and granddad were both graduates?

And you think the same of G.W.?

I know you're a tad slow, but now you're really pushing the envelope.; 6/26/09, 2:11 PM
Dr Weevil said...: Jeremy probably thinks George W. Bush got into Yale and the Texas Air National Guard because his daddy the president pulled strings for him. His father was a county Republican chairman when W. got into Yale and a 1st-term congressman when he joined the TANG.; 6/26/09, 2:15 PM
Jim said...: Weevil -

Jeremy never lets facts get in the way of a good argument because he's not here to debate: he's here to disrupt.

Whenever a post negatively reflects on Democrats, Jeremy launches into the full broadside attack on commenters in order to deflect attention away from the story at hand.

He's noticeably absent from the comments on other posts. He's a troll with a purpose. If I thought he was actually employable, I'd ask to see the checks he gets from Axelrod for his AstroTurfing.

But really, he just wants a cookie so if you give him one and ignore him from there he eventually goes home.; 6/26/09, 2:15 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: I am starting to believe the masses should stop paying taxes and filing tax returns.

That worries me a bit cause I admit I am crazy but I am not nuts!; 6/26/09, 2:16 PM
Jeremy said...: Dr Weevil said..."Jeremyy probably thinks George W. Bush got into Yale and the Texas Air National Guard because his daddy the president pulled strings for him."

I realize this site is loaded with wingnuts who just can't bring themselves to crack a newspaper, periodical or book, but trying to say G.W. wasn't a legacy into Yale or that strings weren't pulled for him to get into the National Guard is quite the stretch of imagination and delusion.

Have you ever read a biography of George W. Bush?

Give it a shot.; 6/26/09, 2:18 PM
former law student said...: Poor stupid Jeremy quotes an imprecise statement from one Wikipedia article to argue that he knows "exactly how" John S. McCain got into the Naval Academy, namely by family influence.

I'm gonna rap Jeremy on the knuckles here.

Maybe the Academy could tell that JMC II was marked for greatness -- although he was merely a fresh Captain at the time JMC III was applying.

Going into the family line of work is not for the easily daunted. Everyone assumes you got there based on influence, and you have to work twice as hard to dispel the idea.

But JMC III had gone to an exclusive private school for high school. I imagine even the bad students there were competitive with the average new midshipman.; 6/26/09, 2:20 PM
Jeremy said...: Jim said..."Weevil - Jeremy never lets facts get in the way of a good argument because he's not here to debate..."

What "facts" are you referring to?

Saying YOU don't believe something isn't a "fact."

Saying you don't believe McCain graduated 694 out of 699 is not a "fact," it's shows a lack of knowledge.

And throwing out silly comments, asking for "proof" McCain was a legacy into the Naval Academy is nothing more than asking someone to prove a "negative."

If McCain was admitted, based on his own intellectual abilities and high SAT scores (which have never been released), he certainly wouldn't have graduated as he did.

You just can't stand to admit you're flat out wrong, and spend most of your time sucking up to your fellow wingnuts for support.; 6/26/09, 2:25 PM
Shanna said...: "...that kind of political atmosphere"??

Are you daft? And where have you ever read where Obama was ever involved in anything of the sort?

I don’t think Chicago is the only corrupt place, but they rank way up there at the top of the Us’s most politically corrupt places.
As for Obama, his opponent had some divorce records that should have been sealed mysteriously come out to end his candidacy resulting in Obama essentially running unopposed for his Senate seat, so there is at least one suspicious thing.

I just would be surprised if Obama wasn’t a bit tainted by his entry into this type of politics. Sure he could rise above it, and I hope he does. But I don’t think you make it to the top in that kind of system with getting along a bit.

Not saying he's at all involved in this particular scandal.; 6/26/09, 2:29 PM
vnjagvet said...: Jeremy has nearly succeeded in changing the subject from graft and corruption in Illinois to preferential treatment in the Naval Academy and Harvard. I wonder why he is doing that? Tu Quoque, maybe?

But I can see a certain degree of moral equivalence between what was going on in Illinois and relaxed admission policies for "disadvantaged" minorities, athletes and legacies.

And Balfegor's point is interesting. The difference between an average of 2.86 for the politically advantaged students and an average of 3.2 for those regularly admitted is less pronounced than I would expect from the type of help (bribery) that they got to be admitted.

It would be interesting to compare GPA's of non-advantaged admittees with GPA's of each category of advantaged admittees.; 6/26/09, 2:29 PM
former law student said...: He said exceptions can be made for some applicants with subpar academic records, such as athletes...

Why?

An illuminating question.

The general rule: students are admitted base on academic achievement as shown by grades and curriculum difficulty, and academic aptitude as shown by performance on standardized tests.

Students who fall short on these measures can yet get in based on athletic performance. Why?

Students with high levels of athletic performance help the university's teams win. News coverage of wins gives the university more name recognition, thus encouraging more students to apply, and makes alumni feel more warmly about their school, thus encouraging them to give money.

Thus universities lower academic admissions standards for students whose attendance will benefit the university.

And this same rule applies to the law school case, because loweing admissions standards for the one candidate benefits the university by providing five graduates with jobs. In turn, having a higher percentage of graduates employed at graduation boosts the school's USNWR score, which will place it higher in the rankings, which will encourage more students to apply, and which will make alumni feel better about the school, which will encourage them to donate more money. So a dumb guy with jobs in his grip is worth the same as a dumb jock.; 6/26/09, 2:30 PM
Jeremy said...: FLS - So you think McCain wasn't a legacy admission to the Naval Academy?

GFL.

Here's an article about the "Punk."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=4565619&page=1; 6/26/09, 2:31 PM
TheThinMan said...: This is the story of Obama's life. And Sotomayor's.; 6/26/09, 2:31 PM
Jeremy said...: vnjagvet said..."Jeremy has nearly succeeded in changing the subject from graft and corruption in Illinois to preferential treatment in the Naval Academy and Harvard. I wonder why he is doing that? Tu Quoque, maybe?"

Not true.

I challenged those who started this off by whining and bitching about "Illinois" politics and of course, throwing Obama under the bus...as if he had something at all to do with Blago's dirty work.

I merely posted comments reflecting other such endeavors, even some related to McCain and G.W., although not so nefarious as those via Blago...and was immediately attacked by the local wingnuts. (Shocking!!)

But are you implying the "graft and corruption" described by the article is relegated to Illinois?

I-don't-think-so...; 6/26/09, 2:36 PM
former law student said...: Here's an article about the "Punk."

Yeah, he was an immature jerk.

This is the story of Obama's life. And Sotomayor's.

Bright kids who went to private schools who graduated top of their classes at Ivy League schools?

I don't see any parallels, sorry.; 6/26/09, 2:38 PM
Jeremy said...: TheThinMan said..."This is the story of Obama's life. And Sotomayor's."

And that means...what??; 6/26/09, 2:43 PM
Unknown said...: Some of you seem to be unaware that W's grandfather Prescott Bush was a Senator from CT. George H. W. Bush was probably a legacy to Yale, even though he is very intelligent.; 6/26/09, 2:44 PM
vnjagvet said...: Jeremy's defense merely emphasizes his attraction to tu quoque argument.

Way to go, Jeremy.; 6/26/09, 2:45 PM
Jeremy said...: Joshua said..."Some of you seem to be unaware that W's grandfather Prescott Bush was a Senator from CT. George H. W. Bush was probably a legacy to Yale, even though he is very intelligent."

Correcto Mundo.

G.H. was and still is a very intelligent and gracious man.

I wonder what happened...to you-know-who.

*I know this will make some cringe, but Oliver Stone's film was actually a fairly balanced overview of G.W.'s life, and sheds some light on his actions and beliefs.; 6/26/09, 2:47 PM
Jeremy said...: vnjagvet said..."Way to go, Jeremy."

Thanks, Dude, but I disagree.

I feel the logic of my arguments and comments easily outweighs the politically-based animus via the local wingnuts.; 6/26/09, 2:51 PM
Dr Weevil said...: Poor Jeremy just can't seem to argue intelligently or honestly. I didn't say George W. Bush wasn't a legacy. I said Jeremy probably thought he got in because his father was president, when his father was not elected president until much later. How could I think anyone could be so stupid as to believe something so obviously untrue? It's easy. Jeremy still hasn't figured out that McCain could not have gotten into the Naval Academy by having a father who was a 4-star admiral because his father was not promoted even to rear admiral until after McCain graduated -- a fact Jeremy seems unable to acknowledge. Nor could his grandfather have been pulling strings for him to get in, because his grandfather was dead. Might he still be called a legacy? Depends on how you define it. But the way Jeremy explicitly defined it (two 4-star ancestors pulling strings for him) is false, and has been proven false, and he can't bring himself to acknowledge it. Does he like being laughed at as an unusually moronic troll? Apparently.; 6/26/09, 3:07 PM
vnjagvet said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/26/09, 3:08 PM
vnjagvet said...: But Jeremy, I am inclined to believe the vast majority of the commenters here can see your logic is still directed at tu quoque argument.; 6/26/09, 3:11 PM
garage mahal said...: I'm reminded of that SNL skit where Will Ferrell runs for City Council (I think), wins the election, and afterward harasses and stalks his opponent who lost -- seemingly oblivious that he won the contest and it was over, but just can't let it go.; 6/26/09, 3:12 PM
Jeremy said...: Dr Weevil said..."I said Jeremy probably thought he got in because his father was president, when his father was not elected president until much later."

Where did I ever say G.W. got into Yale because his father President?

I said he was a "legacy"...period.

As to: "Jeremy still hasn't figured out that McCain could not have gotten into the Naval Academy by having a father who was a 4-star admiral because his father was not promoted even to rear admiral until after McCain graduated..."

I never said anything about "when" his father was a 4-Star Admiral, just that he WAS a 4-Star Admiral.

His grandfather was certainly a 4-Star Admiral before John McCain was admitted to the Naval Academy, and if you want to believe JM wasn't a "legacy," that's up to you. And why you think I was implying he "pulled strings" for JM makes so sense at all. Legacy admissions aren't contingent upon anyone being alive when the admission is granted. (Why would you think something like that??)

As to: "But the way Jeremy explicitly defined it (two 4-star ancestors pulling strings for him) is false..."

I never said anything of the kind.

I said this:

"And let's not forget John McCain...proud graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy...who coincidentally followed his father and grandfather, both four-star admirals."

And this:

"And I also don't think he would have had a snowball's chance in hell if not for the legacy."

And this: "And you think he rolled in on his own...no legacy involved? Just a wild coincidence dad and granddad were both graduates?"

Where is the "strings" being pulled comment you refer to?

You're lying.; 6/26/09, 3:22 PM
Shanna said...: I'm reminded of that SNL skit where Will Ferrell runs for City Council (I think), wins the election, and afterward harasses and stalks his opponent who lost -- seemingly oblivious that he won the contest and it was over, but just can't let it go.

Ah, the days when SNL was still funny. The best part about that skit were the ads he was running about how his opponent was a loser.; 6/26/09, 3:23 PM
Jeremy said...: vnjagvet said..."But Jeremy, I am inclined to believe the vast majority of the commenters here can see your logic is still directed at tu quoque argument."

I doubt there are more than 2-3 who even know what you're talking about.

I'm not presenting any red herrings nor am I misdirecting.

Quit sucking up and argue in good faith.; 6/26/09, 3:24 PM
garage mahal said...: Ah, the days when SNL was still funny. The best part about that skit were the ads he was running about how his opponent was a loser..

Remind you of anyone?; 6/26/09, 3:28 PM
holdfast said...: "ommission chairman Abner Mikva, a retired judge, said he intends to call everyone implicated in this e-mail exchange to testify before the panel. He said he learned of the e-mails late Wednesday from President B. Joseph White."

-Mikva being, of course, a long-time Obama/Ayers crony and stalwart of the lefty wing pg the Chicago Dem machine. I am sure he will get right to the bottom of this.

This is like Conyers saying that he is putting the kibosh on the ACORN investigation at the behest of the "powers that be" - I am not I even know exactly what that means (on Angel, that would refer to supernatural being), but it is interesting that he said it the same day his wife was sent up the river to do a nickel for corruption.; 6/26/09, 3:29 PM
traditionalguy said...: Jeremy...Sorry about blaspheming the name of President Obama. I did not use "President" before either Bush or Obama's names. You want to assert that McCain was a legacy at the Naval Academy. No one knows for sure. But if he had not been accepted, it would have been a dark day for the Navy. The only thing the Navy offers its sailors besides some pay and some nearly endless and extremely dangerous trips around the world in targeted combat ships is a loyalty to their family in return for the sacrifices they make. They have even taken away their Tailhook parties these days.; 6/26/09, 3:29 PM
holdfast said...: Please stop feeding the troll.

On another note, have we ever seen Obama's undergrad transcript and LSAT score? I am not accusing him of anything, of course, I just want to know how much smarter than me his is.; 6/26/09, 3:32 PM
TS said...: What does McCain have to do with corruption at U of I? Someone's losing the plot.; 6/26/09, 3:33 PM
holdfast said...: "he is".

Sigh

I guess he wins on grammar - but in my defense, my teleprompter is in the shop.; 6/26/09, 3:33 PM
Jeremy said...: holdfast said..."Please stop feeding the troll."

Fuck off.; 6/26/09, 3:43 PM
Shanna said...: Remind you of anyone?

Maybe someone who wins an election and then runs around saying "I won" :); 6/26/09, 3:43 PM
Shanna said...: You want to assert that McCain was a legacy at the Naval Academy. No one knows for sure.

Point of clarification, we can very easily know whether McCain was in fact a legacy, what we can't know is if he would have gotten in without being one.; 6/26/09, 3:45 PM
Dr Weevil said...: Silly me. I thought Jeremy was trying to make a logical argument, not just yammering on about some tangential subject. He was the first to mention McCain, and appeared to be comparing his acceptance by the Naval Academy to recent shenanigans at the University of Illinois. If he didn't intend to compare the two, why bring up McCain at all? It seems obvious that he was trying to allege or imply that McCain got into the Naval Academy the same way some unnamed person got into UI Law School, not by being qualified but by having strings pulled for him by powerful persons -- persons he was unaware were either not powerful or not alive at the time. Now he accuses me of lying, because he's too fucking stupid to understand even his own 'arguments', much less mine.; 6/26/09, 3:51 PM
garage mahal said...: Maybe someone who wins an election and then runs around saying "I won" :)

Mmmmm, no. Think less about elections, and more argument styles. Hint: you don't have to look far.; 6/26/09, 3:56 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: I read McCain's book Faith of My Fathers. He admits he got some help from his father or grandfather to stay in (after amassing a bunch of demerits) the Academy. I can't recall if he acknowledged help in getting admitted.

I'd love to see them name the law school applicants who were "Friends of Blago".

That would be fun.; 6/26/09, 3:59 PM
TS said...: But the U of I law students are not legacies, so again, what's the point?; 6/26/09, 4:00 PM
holdfast said...: "Fuck off."

Arrrghhh I am mortally wounded by your unassailable logic, sir.; 6/26/09, 4:01 PM
Shanna said...: Mmmmm, no. Think less about elections, and more argument styles. Hint: you don't have to look far.

Ah, but that skit wasn't about any type of argument to me, it was about someone who won, and couldn't let the election go, to the point of being a huge jerk.; 6/26/09, 4:07 PM
garage mahal said...: Ah, but that skit wasn't about any type of argument to me, it was about someone who won, and couldn't let the election go, to the point of being a huge jerk.

Does that character remind you of someone that uses a similar approach in debating someone else? Again, don't look far. On blogs. This one. This thread.; 6/26/09, 4:12 PM
Anonymous said...: What is a good law firm's interest in hiring an under-performing student who hasn't passed the bar? Why would they want this kind of a deal? I would think good law firms could hire bad students any day of the week. Why would they need a law school dean to do that?; 6/26/09, 4:15 PM
Anonymous said...: When everything is run by government, everything is ultimately political. Corrupt, yes. Predictable? Yes.; 6/26/09, 4:17 PM
Jeremy said...: Weevil (Jeremy) - "He was the first to mention McCain, and appeared to be comparing his acceptance by the Naval Academy to recent shenanigans at the University of Illinois."

Again...you're lying through your teeth (if you have any.)

I never said anything of the kind.

My comments relating to McCain and Bush refers to the fact that people sometimes get into colleges via favors, legacies and other means that sometimes do not relate to their qualifications.; 6/26/09, 4:28 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Duscany asked:
"What is a good law firm's interest in hiring an under-performing student who hasn't passed the bar? Why would they want this kind of a deal? I would think good law firms could hire bad students any day of the week. Why would they need a law school dean to do that?"

Those are excellent questions. Maybe when they agree to play nice in these political games, they can expect to be remembered for lucrative govt bond work and other stuff like that?; 6/26/09, 4:30 PM
Jeremy said...: Duscany said..."What is a good law firm's interest in hiring an under-performing student who hasn't passed the bar? Why would they want this kind of a deal? I would think good law firms could hire bad students any day of the week. Why would they need a law school dean to do that?"

Good questions.

Why would the Justice Department during the Bush administration hire 150 law grads from Pat Robertson's Regent University?

Would anybody here think Regent University represents the cream of the law school crop?; 6/26/09, 4:32 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Jeremy Gene Olson is seriously losing it. Get help Dude!; 6/26/09, 4:33 PM
The Drill SGT said...: It seems obvious that he was trying to allege or imply that McCain got into the Naval Academy the same way some unnamed person got into UI Law School, not by being qualified but by having strings pulled for him by powerful persons -- persons he was unaware were either not powerful or not alive at the time. Now he accuses me of lying, because he's too fucking stupid to understand even his own 'arguments', much less mine.

Having been involved in admissions issues for West Point, I have a bit of understanding.

a couple of points:

1. I hope that eveybody knows that the majority of appointments to the USNA are "political". That is the system. 800 enter, 535 political appointments plus CMH sons, Presidentials, jocks, and a few minorities.

2. I expect that JSM III got a Congressional appointment, he had a high IQ (130ish), likely tested well, and like it or not, appointing authorities look at a kid whose dad was a grad and calculate that his likely to know the pressures and better likely to succeed

JSMIII was a credit to the USNA, his family and the country; 6/26/09, 4:34 PM
Jeremy said...: holdfast said..."Arrrghhh I am mortally wounded by your unassailable logic, sir."

Merely responding in kind, asshole.; 6/26/09, 4:34 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Good points Sgt.

A candidate's likelihood for staying in the full four years is an important factor in the admissions process.; 6/26/09, 4:36 PM
Jeremy said...: Drill Sgt. - "JSMIII was a credit to the USNA, his family and the country."

Nobody said he wasn't, especially me.

I merely said he was a legacy, as was George W. Bush...and that the Illinois situation is an entirely different animal.

Whether he would have gotten in otherwise is anybody's guess, and I know he got good grades in H.S., but have no idea what his SAT's were. (And I don't think I.Q. has much to do with any of it.); 6/26/09, 4:37 PM
Jeremy said...: AJ - Once again - I hope whoever this Gene guy is also gets Christmas presents from you idiots, he appears to be an obsession with you.

*And NO...I do NOT teach at some community college.

Geeeezzzz...; 6/26/09, 4:39 PM
Dr Weevil said...: So we were discussing blatantly corrupt admissions practices at UI, and Jeremy brought up McCain as an example of an entirely different kind of admission -- possibly deplorable but definitely not corrupt -- with no intention of insulting McCain or diverting the argument away from Democratic wrongdoing by a specious and inept attempt at moral equivalence. Someone's lying here, does anyone except Jeremy think it's not Jeremy?; 6/26/09, 4:39 PM
hombre said...: Hurd replied: "Only very high-paying jobs in law firms that are absolutely indifferent to whether the five have passed their law school classes or the Bar."

Hurd's e-mail suggests that students getting the jobs are to be those in the "bottom of the class." Law school rankings depend in part on the job placement rate of graduates.

I don't know if anybody has said so -- I'm not willing to wade past all the Jeremy tripe -- but I think a more apt and charitable interpretation of Hurd's response is that it is extreme sarcasm.

It would be nice to see the media being charitable to somebody besides DC Democrats for a change.; 6/26/09, 4:41 PM
Jeremy said...: T said..."But the U of I law students are not legacies, so again, what's the point?"

The one on your head or the one made at about 11:47 by FLS?; 6/26/09, 4:42 PM
mccullough said...: Heidi Hurd's reply seems like a joke. She's saying that these five FOBs won't pass classes or the bar exam, so in return for admitting them Blago should find them jobs. I.e., he'll be taking care of them for the rest of his life.; 6/26/09, 4:45 PM
mccullough said...: I think the judge presiding over Blago's trial should require him to be represented by all those students he pushed for admission to Illinois; 6/26/09, 4:46 PM
Jeremy said...: Dr Weevil - One more time for the intellectually deficient: I said McCain and G.W. were legacies.

Period.

I never said they were admitted through some kind of nefarious, underhanded, horrible back room shenanigans.

People all over the country get into colleges via all kinds of influence...sometimes because they're born to the right family...sometimes via people like Blago...but it's certainly not confined to Illinois.; 6/26/09, 4:47 PM
Cedarford said...: The troll opines:
I understand exactly how he got in.

And I also don't think he would have had a snowball's chance in hell if not for the legacy.

Do YOU think the Naval Academy was dying to have someone who ended up graduating 6 from the bottom as a new student?.

And -

I think it's wonderful McCain was "rebellious," but he did graduate 894th out of 899.

If you think that's some kind of tremendous achievement, that's up to you. Personally, I would prefer a graduate in the upper 10 percentile versus the very bottom level..

That is because you have never been in a career where talent, leadership, character and drive matter more than academic class rank, Jeremy.

Nor do you understand that certain schools rank on matters besides academics. Like military academies. Like theater schools.

The pattern in military academies is THEY WANT people with talents that are different, but complimentary, in a Team Endeavor the grads are being prepped for. That is why you see the highest percent of advancement in the top 10% of grads, the bottom 10% (rebels and fighting spirit guys), and people who are in the middle, but spotted as having uniquely excellent people skills or an unusual talent the military badly needs (code-breaking, engineering genius, superb combat skill, etc.)

The argument is really over about McCain, Jeremy...because his career is done and the Navy has weighed in on him. He is an exemplar, of the hundreds of thousands who have graduated there in our history..of the warrior spirit, of can-do adroitness in turning around a mediocre command, and in adroitness in navigating conflicting rules, personalites and getting the Navy what it sought as Navy Liaison to Congress.

McCain is TAUGHT to classes of undergrads - warrior spirit.

Then he is taught to serving officers in grad schools on turnaround of poor-performing military units (along with others that had similar or better success at leadership in military turnarounds) - and in how you interact with civilian command and power centers...

You don't seem to understand that McCain is considered as much a feather in the cap of the admissions strategy of a military academy as a chemistry Nobel Prize is to CalTech admissions policy of singularly talented people who bomb in humanities grades..

Drill Sgt - I think it's wonderful McCain was "rebellious," but he did graduate 894th out of 899.

If you think that's some kind of tremendous achievement, that's up to you. Personally, I would prefer a graduate in the upper 10 percentile versus the very bottom level.

As we speak, the Academies and several ROTC commands are happily admitting rebel punks like McCain who end up killing 20 guys as Marine officers in Fallujah, gifted flyers, logistics whizes that can't write a coherent poem...and who lead men on remote Afghan firebase.

------------
And yeah, Jeremy derailed the thread, but it is worth reminding these campus-centric morons that school is school, and real life is where it counts.; 6/26/09, 4:48 PM
Cedarford said...: I mentioned theater school earlier.

A man showed up at the Sanford Meisner graduate school for actors in NYC amidst all the folks who had graduated from Yale, Columbia, Vassar, Bennington drama, etc.. He explained he was dyslexic and had not graduated from middle school, and acting was one of the few things he might put his GI Bill to use on.. He got into the Marines only on fearlessness, spend half his time in the Brig along with getting a second chance after personally saving 6 guys in a tank that was sinking through Arctic ice.
He didn't mention that his middle school was the Chino Reform School for Boys.
His girlfriend and classmates who thought he had some raw talent helped him read lines.
He supported himself repairing ship, motorcycle, and car engines. Plus racing on Long Island and when money was tight- demanding auto body work that left his hands battered so much he showed up at acting classes wearing gloves.

He moved past being a curiosity to refined acting people to getting some work as a bit player - the thug or troubled youth. Then B movie supporting roles, then starring ones. And hit A-level movies by the early 60s, and made lots of money for himself and the producers.

His name was Steve McQueen.
A school bottom 10%-er if there ever was one.; 6/26/09, 4:48 PM
Anonymous said...: What's a matta, Sunshine?

Don't have anything to do on a Friday except troll?; 6/26/09, 4:58 PM
Big Mike said...: Hmm. I've been in an all-afternoon meeting and missed out on all the fun. Apparently we started off with the University of Illinois accepting an under-qualified student as a political favor to the Democrat governor in exchange for jobs -- presumably for the dregs of the class but we don't know for certain.

Then we wind up discussing John McCain's admission to the Naval Academy. Has anyone above me in the thread pointed out that McCain's low standing in the graduating class says nothing about his qualifications to enter Annapolis? But just to cut through the blather let's stipulate that he was accepted in part because of his family heritage. So what? It makes sense that the military academies would accept qualified applicants with military pedigrees over qualified applicants without, because the academies are there to groom career officers. Clearly a military brat is more likely to put in his or her 20+ years than someone who enters service without realizing the downside that comes with military service: lengthy separations from family, uprooting your family every couple years for a new duty assignment, etc. Not to mention the possibility that you might die a painful death well before you're 30 years old.

So I don't have a whole lot of problem with John McCain's admission to the Naval Academy.

But I've never heard of a military academy accepting an unqualified applicant. Having unqualified officers gets people killed, and the service academies are very aware of that.

Getting back to that blue state on the south side of Lake Michigan, is the Democrat party in Illinois crooked? It used to just be the City of Chicago, going back to Mayor Cermak, refined under the first Richard Daley, and perfected under the present mayor by that name. Now it's the whole damn state, right down to the University of Illinois. Sad. I'm glad I left that state forty years ago. Wish I'd left it even sooner.; 6/26/09, 5:04 PM
Dr Weevil said...: We all understand what you said, Jeremy. We also understand that there was no point in mentioning McCain and Bush at all on this thread unless you were either trying to hijack it with utter irrelevancies or suggesting corruption in their cases. I did you the honor of supposing that you weren't just trying to change the subject like a common troll and therefore presumed that you were attempting an actual argument by analogy, comparing the two situations. You can't do that without implying corruption in the case of McCain and Bush -- otherwise the situations are not analogous --, so now you deny that you meant to imply what you were quite clearly implying. Or do you claim that you were just yammering irrelevancies? Either way, this would have been a better thread without any contributions from you.

No one denies that McCain and Bush were legacies in the non-corrupt sense, so why bring them up if their situation is completely different from what is going on in Illinois right now? You still haven't explained that.

By the way, McCain's father and grandfather made full (4-star) admiral despite graduating 423rd out of 441 and 79th out of 116 in their USNA classes. I guess class rank doesn't really mean much when it comes to predicting military excellence.; 6/26/09, 5:06 PM
Balfegor said...: Would anybody here think Regent University represents the cream of the law school crop?

Not particularly, but I don't think we should particularly want the cream of the law school crop -- particularly at a moment like this, where we're living through the fallout of what all the straight-A Ivy-leaguers have wrought on Wall Street thanks to their creative, outside the box lawyering/accounting/banking. Frankly, I'd prefer that government lawyers be stolid, unimaginative types, perfectly content to read the law and apply it.; 6/26/09, 5:06 PM
Jeremy said...: Cedarford - You can blather on all day about what a wonderful student McCain was, but he did graduate 694 out of 699 and I doubt even he thinks that's some kind of top notch achievement, regardless of his success, contributions and achievements thereafter.

I think he and G.W. both got into specific colleges via legacy, and no amount of defensive drivel from you will change my opinion.

As to your inane attack on me:

"That is because you have never been in a career where talent, leadership, character and drive matter more than academic class rank..."

I have no idea what you base that on, other than just being an uninformed prick.

I graduated from a major university, got my MBA and have owned and operated a number of successful businesses. And because of those experiences, I have a very good idea of how "talent, leadership, character and drive" contribute to success and profits.; 6/26/09, 5:10 PM
Jeremy said...: Balfegor - Right.

We certainly wouldn't want the Justice Department hiring top flight graduates.

Good lord...are you for real?; 6/26/09, 5:11 PM
Jeremy said...: Dr Weevil - You're lying again.

What's wrong with you?

Can't win an argument or debate so you just start throwing out lies and distortions?

Gutless.; 6/26/09, 5:13 PM
Dr Weevil said...: No, Jeremy, you're lying. Why did you bring up McCain at all if you didn't want to make an analogy to what is going on in Illinois? Please answer the question.; 6/26/09, 5:16 PM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Have a good weekend everyone! Even you Gene. It's gonna be warm for a change here on the East Coast and Go Phils!; 6/26/09, 5:34 PM
traditionalguy said...: I have heard that Regent University represents the cream of Universities in quality of faculty and students. So why ridicule them because a religious man founded that school? Every well known University that I am familiar with, other than State Universities and the A&M universities, was started by religious men for the religious purpose of fournishing quality educations to Christians.; 6/26/09, 5:34 PM
Jeremy said...: traditionalguy said..."I have heard that Regent University represents the cream of Universities in quality of faculty and students."

Finally...something really funny.; 6/26/09, 5:41 PM
Jeremy said...: Traditional Dolt - Regent University:

U.S. News & World Report ranks Regent University School of Law as a Tier 4 school, the LOWEST RANKING within the law school category.; 6/26/09, 5:42 PM
traditionalguy said...: Jeremy...Give them time to grow in the rankings. The students and faculty are good. The art of getting ranked in these reports is a political activity within academia. That fixing the rankings game was what the U. of Ill. Administrator sold out for in this posting. Dare we call this corruption of the rankings system? Remember that the more liberal the faculty asserts that they are, the higher the schools ranking will turn out to be. But that corruption is not a scary as Christianity seems to be these days.; 6/26/09, 5:59 PM
Christy said...: Am I the only one here who went to school on academic scholarships and but know less successful classmates who went on to great accomplishment? I recognize that families train children in ways that school cannot. If these 5 law students have fathers, or mothers, who know where the bodies are buried, chances are that the students will be equally well connected, savvy, and up for the challenge of political hardball, no matter their ability to take tests.; 6/26/09, 6:00 PM
Jeremy said...: TRADITIONAL - "But that corruption is not a scary as Christianity seems to be these days."

What does Christianity have to do with Regent's poor rating?

Are you saying they're rated low because it's a Christian college?

Ever hear of Notre Dame?; 6/26/09, 6:15 PM
Big Mike said...: Dr. Weevil and traditionalguy, please don't feed the trolls.; 6/26/09, 6:19 PM
somefeller said...: I for one applaud the University of Illinois's aggressive approach to career placement services. In this tough economy, it's refreshing to see a law school go the extra mile to make sure its graduates become gainfully employed after graduation.; 6/26/09, 6:29 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: "What is a good law firm's interest in hiring an under-performing student who hasn't passed the bar? Why would they want this kind of a deal? I would think good law firms could hire bad students any day of the week. Why would they need a law school dean to do that?"

One answer is that the same type of pull that gets one admitted without being qualified to the school are the same as those that bring in big paying clients. And rain making doesn't require big brains, but rather, the ability to network or use someone else's network effectively.; 6/26/09, 8:07 PM
traditionalguy said...: Big Mike... Even trolls have souls. Jeremy is a big prank artist, but he asks good questions, which is the beginning of a teachable moment. Regents U. is new. The knee jerk with which trolls like Jeremy ridicule it is based upon the school's founder's well known Christian free speech. The assertion of christian faith ouy loud in public is a bomb shell to Progressives who are seeking to avoid such truths. Let them learn.; 6/26/09, 9:50 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: The amazing thing is that Jeremy has again managed to hijack a thread, from the original Democratic party Chicago style corruption of the U. Ill. law school, to John McCain III's class rank.

Who the heck cares about where John S. McCain III ranked at Annapolis. He lost the election. Affirmative Action babies Barack and Michelle Obama won. We would do better discussing her emptiness now that she no longer can earn twice what her husband was earning lobbying him on behalf of that Chicago hospital.; 6/26/09, 10:02 PM
Crimso said...: Longstreet got into USMA because a relative was a Congressman. He graduated 54th out of 56. One of his biographers claims that his spectacularly successful attack in depth on the second day at Chickamauga (a tactic he figured out on his own, as USMA taught litle in the way of strategy and tactics at the time; especially remarkable considering he literally got off the train from Virginia late on the first day of the battle and was handed command of half of the army in the middle of the night by Bragg) is still used as an example at USMA. Not to mention his other exploits during the War of the Rebellion (some of which are admittedly controversial).

Know what they traditionally call the person who graduates last in their class in medical school? "Doctor."; 6/26/09, 10:28 PM
Anonymous said...: Bruce: Yes, and these threads will continue to be hijacked until people ignore those they think are trolls, completely and categorically.

Given the topic, a discussion of legacy and other politically-motivated admissions to professional schools is not unreasonable, and so, many of the comments that hijacked the thread are fairly pertinent.

But it should be obvious to anyone brighter than the inside of a moose, that the purpose of such comments it not to debate these things reasonably. The stated object is to drive "wingnuts" from this blog.

If people do not want the threads to turn into what you see above, please do not respond to anyone who seems like a troll.

If you like the Althouse comments turned into the Itchy & Scratchy Show, by all means, give him a piece of your mind.; 6/26/09, 11:11 PM
Jim said...: bruce -

"We would do better discussing her emptiness now that she no longer can earn twice what her husband was earning lobbying him on behalf of that Chicago hospital."

Two things:

1) The latest bill through Congress waiting for Obama's signature will require that you capitalize all references to Michelle...so, henceforth, she will be properly referred to as "Her Emptiness."

2) What I most enjoy talking about with Leftists is how her salary tripled during the time she was there and that her job was so vitally important, that they completely eliminated it as soon as they didn't have a politically-connected person to fill it. But there's nothing to see here...No pay-to-play politics with the wife of a sitting US Senator (unlike that other US Senator Chris Dodd whose wife's consulting company has zero clients and yet she has gotten lucrative seats on multiple health care companies that her husband regulates). No sirree. No way that she was corruptly taking money. No way that "Mr. Integrity" was being bought off by giving a make-work job to his wife who had no previous experience in the field. Nope. Nothing to see here. Move along.; 6/27/09, 1:18 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: Given the topic, a discussion of legacy and other politically-motivated admissions to professional schools is not unreasonable, and so, many of the comments that hijacked the thread are fairly pertinent.

Part of why this though was troubling is that this is a state school. Illinois taxpayers pay a portion of the cost of running the law school, and it was opened to benefit the people of that great state.

Add to this that there are fewer and fewer legacy admits at most schools every year. They have always been problematic at state schools (for the reasons mentioned above), but private schools are rapidly moving away from them.

I think that anyone who has been involved in the college admissions process over the last couple of years, esp. when it involves the most popular private colleges, is aware of this. There, absent an established record of notable giving to the college over the years, legacy status has become almost irrelevant. A couple of hundred dollars a year isn't going to help at all. Indeed, the president of one Ivy League college has apparently told his white alums that it is now the turn of people of color.

So, today, George W. Bush and John Kerry would likely not get admitted to Yale, and Al Gore would not likely get admitted to Harvard (none had SATs that would be even remotely competitive today at schools much lower ranked than those two). And those are private schools. The University of Illinois is tax payer funded.; 6/27/09, 9:28 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: 1) The latest bill through Congress waiting for Obama's signature will require that you capitalize all references to Michelle...so, henceforth, she will be properly referred to as "Her Emptiness."

The insanity is that right now, we don't know that you are wrong there - with a thousand page bill, and 300 page amendment dumped on everyone's desk six hours before voting started. I suspect you are, just because the House leadership would not likely think of that. Now, they might have changed Nancy Pelosi's title to "Her Worshipfulness" or even "Her Majesty". That would be more par for the course.

As a note, my mention of Michelle's feeling of emptiness comes from a recent puff piece on her. But it doesn't really make sense. It has been years since she had a really meaningful job (did she ever?) It is likely that rearranging the gardens at the White House would be as fulfilling as the "lobbying" that she was doing before for the hospital. And now she gets all the trappings of power, without having to "work" to get them. She doesn't have to shop any more, since the best designers come to her now, begging her to be seen in their wares. And if she does want to go shopping any way, she does so with a police escort and entourage that makes Oprah envious.; 6/27/09, 9:41 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: As a somewhat follow up to my last post, we were in Wash., D.C. last week, and I was amazed that it has almost as many Suburbans as we have here in Northern Nevada. The difference is that almost all of them there are black, with fairly darkly tinted windows, and if you look closely, some have hidden lights and sirens (and then, they are obvious on other black Suburbans).

Are there really that many really, really, important people living there? Or do they just think they are?; 6/27/09, 9:45 AM
I'm Full of Soup said...: Bruce:

I don't know if there are more important people but I heard the D.C. area has an unemployment rate of about 5%.

That means it has an unemployment rate that is only one-half when compared to the rest of the country.; 6/27/09, 11:51 AM
holdfast said...: Her Royal Vacantness did a few years as a BigLaw associate, where by all accounts she was competent, but a whiner. She wanted the cool files and didn't want to do junior associate scutwork. Of course, nobody wants to do junior associate scutwork, but those of us without a grievance/entitlement complex work our way out of it through diligence and competence - she whined. And trust me, even today African American females are "diversity gold" in a major law firm - they'll do anything to recruit and retain them, and a lot gets overlooked at review time which would never fly with a white male.; 6/27/09, 1:23 PM