Althouse: "We are a multicultural society, and people expect this American life to continue the same way in heaven."

२८ डिसेंबर, २००८

"We are a multicultural society, and people expect this American life to continue the same way in heaven."

Are Christians Christian? Is God multi-culti?

३९ टिप्पण्या:

Ron म्हणाले...: This is probably true...but when God gets in trouble with Soul Default Swaps, who will bail him out?; २८/१२/०८, ४:१६ PM
Ken Pidcock म्हणाले...: He explained that in our society, we meet so many good people of different faiths that it’s hard for us to imagine God letting them go to hell.

Ah, yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, He was pretty clear on that one.; २८/१२/०८, ४:३० PM
Kirby Olson म्हणाले...: Universalism is a growing problem in the churches.

It must be stopped.

You have to go back and read the direct words of God where He is speaking in the first person.

Then of course you have to read John 3:16, which is pretty direct, too.

I'm not sure if many people are going, but this has to do with the growing lack of boundaries. Now everything's ok no matter what.

It's the multicultural idea that there are no longer any universal standards for judgment.

It's a communist idea, ultimately.

It's not God's idea.; २८/१२/०८, ४:४६ PM
JohnAnnArbor म्हणाले...: The idea that there's no way that people altered the Bible by the time pen hit paper--long after Jesus walked the Earth--isn't credible. You're starting a new religion; you don't think tossing in a few "and you better believe, or else" lines wouldn't be tempting for the guys doing the writing and compiling?; २८/१२/०८, ४:४९ PM
Freder Frederson म्हणाले...: Universalism is a growing problem in the churches.

It must be stopped.

Why is universalism a growing problem? Why must it be stopped?

Christianity has been arguing about this since it was founded and there have been at least three great schisms in Christianity (Orthodoxy/Roman) and the Reformation (which was actually two distinct movements).

If you don't like Universalism, don't attend a church that preaches it. Nobody will know for sure who is right until we are dead--and maybe not even then.; २८/१२/०८, ४:५३ PM
Freder Frederson म्हणाले...: It must be stopped.

And who exactly do you propose should be responsible for stopping it? Which is the the correct Christian denomination? If we were to hold a vote, the Roman Catholics would win, and they aren't even biblical literalists.; २८/१२/०८, ४:५६ PM
George M. Spencer म्हणाले...: And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

John 9: 1-3; २८/१२/०८, ५:०४ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: If we were to hold a vote, the Roman Catholics would win, and they aren't even biblical literalists.

Nor are they universalists.; २८/१२/०८, ५:०४ PM
Freder Frederson म्हणाले...: Nor are they universalists.

I didn't say they were. But you aren't going to heaven if you don't follow the mandates of the Catholic Church either. Both your most hardcore foot washing Baptist and most devout Irish Catholic would be just as surprised to see each other in heaven as they would Gandhi.; २८/१२/०८, ५:०९ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: I think the larger "issue" that the cited poll numbers point to, assuming they are correct, is the failure of churches to properly educate their own about the doctrines of their faith. That is, they apparently believe things their own church leaders do not.

I mean, Freder is right, people inevitably pick and choose what they believe. But given how fundamental the doctrines of original sin and salvation are to the Christian faith, it reflects a pretty widespread failure among its teachers that so many practicing believers do not believe them.; २८/१२/०८, ५:०९ PM
ricpic म्हणाले...: America: the great mixmaster universal (which is to say, non-) nation.

At least according to the marxists at the NY Times. Note also that they use a black, untouchable by definition, to advance their argument.

Clever devils.; २८/१२/०८, ५:१५ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: The Pope called an emergency meeting in the dark of night somewhere in the bowels of the Vatican. Once everyone arrived he said, "I have good news and bad news. The good news is that Jesus has returned! I just spoke with him on the telephone."

"Oh my goodness, that's truly wonderful news, Holy Father! But what's the bad news?"

"He was calling from Salt Lake City."; २८/१२/०८, ५:१९ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: A man was stranded on the proverbial deserted Pacific island for years. Finally one day a boat comes sailing into view, and the man frantically waves and draws the skipper's attention. The boat comes near the island, and the sailor gets out and greets the stranded man.

After awhile the sailor asks, "What are those three huts you have here?"

"Well, that's my house there."

"What's that next hut?" asks the sailor.

"I built that hut to be my church."

"What about the other hut?"

"Oh, that's where I used to go to church."; २८/१२/०८, ५:१९ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: From Emo Phillips:

A fellow who was about to jump off a bridge, when another fellow ran up to him crying, “Stop, stop, don’t do it.”

The man on the bridge looks down and asks, “Why not?”

“Well, there’s much to live for.”

“What for?”

“Well, your faith. Your religion.”

“Yes?”

“Are you religious?”

“Yes.”

“Me, too. Christian or Buddhist?”

“Christian.”

“Me, too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?”

“Protestant.”

“Me, too. Methodist, Baptist or Presbyterian?”

“Baptist.”

“Me, too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Savior?”

“Baptist Church of God.”

“Me, too. Are you Original Baptist Church of God or Reformed Baptist Church of God?”

“Reformed Baptist Church of God.”

“Me, too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God Reformation of 1879, or Reform Baptist Church of God Reformation of 1917?”

“1917.”

Whereupon, the second fellow turned red in the face and yelled, “Die, you heretic scum,” and pushed him off the bridge.; २८/१२/०८, ५:२३ PM
Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...: The word of God was said to be written in stone, the law was written in stone...

Deuteronomy 9:10

So when the stones speak of God we might be well advised to listen ;)

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Luke 19:40; २८/१२/०८, ५:५९ PM
cardeblu म्हणाले...: I guess it would depend upon one's definition of "universalism."

About a year and a half ago, our host posted about a Hindu priest who gave the invocation at the Senate. As I tried to convey in the comments at that time, here was a man of poly-/pantheistic views, yet he narrowed it to "the" supreme, the "core" as it were, and asked for the right things. While not the Lord's Prayer in words, it followed it in Spirit. It was also left up to me, in my heart (if I were there), to add to whom and in what name I was praying. That kind of univeralism I can understand--to see the same thing but from a different point of view.

For some reason, if the situation had been different with, say, a liberal female Episcopalian priest, I think I would have been more offended. The prayers I've encountered from those of that, albeit extreme characterization seem to broaden the scope, yet lose the foundation. It merely encompasses rather than defines.

As far as a multicultural society, again, starting from a broad base and narrowing it down does seem to be better: E Pluribus Unum. As a bonus, if the rest of us Americans can make a party out of another culture's celebration, then so much the better.; २८/१२/०८, ६:०० PM
Cedarford म्हणाले...: Another way to celebrate our multicultural heritage is to expect a glorious rainbow of murders done in heaven. And the angels telling God what with all the criminal rights and ACLU lawyer types that successfully sued to get themselves to heaven from hell, they're lucky to get half the suspects these days behind bars.
"Used to be a lot safer here when it was just Christian white people floating in the clouds", one older angel grumbled.

The number of criminal homicides committed in the United States climbed from 4,566 in 1963 to 21,003 in 1980 back down to 14,811 in 2007, according to the FBI. But he clearance rate has been dropping pretty steadily over the past four decades, slipping under 80 percent in the early 1970s and below 70 percent in the late 1980s. In cities with populations over 1 million, the 2007 clearance rate was 59 percent, down from 89 percent in 1963. In some Chicago and Philadelphia neighborhoods, the clearance rate is under 15%.; २८/१२/०८, ६:१२ PM
Lem Vibe Bandit म्हणाले...: We have been cowed into not even been able to say "merry chrismas" for havens sake!

Whether of them two did the will of his father? They say to him, The first. Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 21:31; २८/१२/०८, ६:१८ PM
Ken Pidcock म्हणाले...: We have been cowed into not even been able to say "merry chrismas" for havens sake!

Does anyone know if "cowed" has the same etymology as "coward"?

Let us remind ourselves that the history of oppressed majorities is not a pretty one.; २८/१२/०८, ६:२८ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Cardinal O'Rourke runs excitedly into Pope Benedict's office:

"Your Holiness! Your Holiness! I bring good news and bad!"

"What is it Cardinal? What is the good news?"

"Your Holiness, I have our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on this cell phone! He has called the Vatican asked the speak with you!"

"Oh my Lord! Had me the phone! And what could possibly be the bad news?"

"He is calling collect. From Salt Lake City."; २८/१२/०८, ६:२९ PM
Jeff with one 'f' म्हणाले...: 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The Gospel According to Saint John, 14:5-6

The Holy Bible, conteyning the Old Testament, and the New (King James Version, 1611); २८/१२/०८, ६:४१ PM
Wince म्हणाले...: As for atheists, I don’t see a conflict, as they seem most preoccupied with being right that there is no afterlife.

If atheists believe there is no afterlife, and they value being right, then no afterlife would be "heaven" to an atheist.

I’m sure an all loving God would be willing to oblige them.; २८/१२/०८, ७:०२ PM
Henry म्हणाले...: I'm not sure about "this American life" (does Ira Glass run heaven?), but C.S. Lewis answered the question of sectarian exclusion in his Narnia series.

In The Last Battle, a young Calormene is devoutly religious in the worship of the god Tash, yet achieves Christian salvation. Aslan tells him: "I take to me the services which thou has done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done t him. Therfore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.... For all find what they truly seek."; २८/१२/०८, ७:५४ PM
Ken Pidcock म्हणाले...: And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted....

Shouldn't somebody run that by Tash?; २८/१२/०८, ८:२५ PM
Henry म्हणाले...: Not if you're Aslan, I guess.; २८/१२/०८, ८:३१ PM
William म्हणाले...: The early Church fathers believed that one of the great joys of the elect in heaven was watching the eternal torments of the wicked in hell. I can appreciate the sentiment. Within my circle of acquaintances there are many who would fairly deserve a bed of hot coals. And, while putting fiery irons in those orifices may strike some as extreme, who are we to question the justice of God. The point is, though, that after a few thousand years of watching the bastards writhe around, I would probably relent. I know it's unchristian but that's just the way I am.... You see the problem. I like to think that I am less merciful than God. If I find eternal damnation too much, I wonder how God can exact this punishment.....Perhaps there is a certain amount of cross over between heaven and hell among the different faiths. Those stuck up bitches from the Sacred Heart Academy, so clearly guilty of the sin of pride, would be sentenced by God to a lifetime of servitude to Mohammad Atta, the 9/11 hijacker. What's Atta's punishment? Hanging out for all eternity with 70 Sacred Heart virgins.; २८/१२/०८, ९:१३ PM
Buford Gooch म्हणाले...: William said: If I find eternal damnation too much, I wonder how God can exact this punishment.

Perhaps we are misreading the Bible, and "Hell" is the ash heap. It is mostly from Dante that we get the idea of hell. A careful reading of the Bible could lead one to the conclusion that hell is a cessation of being.; २८/१२/०८, ९:२४ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: A careful reading of the Bible could lead one to the conclusion that hell is a cessation of being.

It can; the view is known as "annihilationism." But while it has mainstream adherents it is a minority view.; २८/१२/०८, ९:३९ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: The early Church fathers believed that one of the great joys of the elect in heaven was watching the eternal torments of the wicked in hell.

Can you document this? Honest question, this: I mean, I looked for it, and maybe it is true that one or the other Father said something to this effect; someone on another blog attributed it to Augustine. But I'm interested enough in these kinds of things that I would have thought I'd have heard about it if it were shared by many church fathers.; २८/१२/०८, ९:४१ PM
Unknown म्हणाले...: (That is not to say I don't learn something new every day, usually often :)); २८/१२/०८, ९:४९ PM
Dust Bunny Queen म्हणाले...: Even as a child being taught Catechism in the Catholic Church, the concept that all who are not Catholic or who are not Christians are doomed to hell, made absolutely no sense. I would argue with the Nuns and refused to accept such a concept.

Do we truly believe that God would doom millions upon millions of people to hell merely because they were born,lived and died before the Advent of Jesus? or that they were born and lived in areas of the world where Christianity hadn't arrived? If you were so unfortunate as to live in Australia before the English came, you were denied Heaven or an afterlife or whatever? I don't believe such a thing. I refuse to believe such a narrow minded thing.

I believe that God, just as does Evil,has many faces and that if we serve the "Good", no matter what the face of that good looks like, it doesn't matter in the long run.

Of course, in the long run we are ALL dead and then.... who knows? I'd rather not chance it, and would err on the side of being "good". In other words be good for goodness sake.

I also want to assume that the 'supreme being or the 'guiding force' or the 'source of all' feels the same. I would hate to think that God is so narrow minded or such a bigot that he would reject goodness merely because it wasn't official Christian goodness.; २८/१२/०८, १०:१६ PM
Robert म्हणाले...: It's a communist idea, ultimately.

Now all we need is rhhardin coming around with a little quip about how Universalism really has to do with the immutable differences between men and women.

Jesus, but you people are so fucking tedious sometimes.; २८/१२/०८, १०:४१ PM
Ken Pidcock म्हणाले...: If the unfaithful are destined to die for good, that seems fair enough.

It's the eternal anguish thing that gets us going, you know.; २८/१२/०८, १०:४८ PM
William म्हणाले...: mcg: I read this in Nietzsche years ago. I'm sorry that I cannot source it better than that. I have the vague sense that he was quoting Tertullian... Paul Johnson in his History of Christianity writes about some of the beliefs of the early Christians. Many of those beliefs we would be uncomfortable with today....Johnson made Erasmus the hero of his book. Erasmus taught that the values of Christianity should trump the rigidities of dogma. Erasmus view has certainly prevailed.; २८/१२/०८, ११:१३ PM
Joe म्हणाले...: Actually, we're all going to hell, by which I mean Madison.; २८/१२/०८, ११:१८ PM
Rob म्हणाले...: Joe, Funniest comment yet.

Me: 12 years Catholic school ending in '93. Learned about other religions in pan-religious classes. Had Hindu, Jewish, and Protestant students in our class that had to take the "Religion" tests and got a grade, but did not have to practice in the Masses that the school had to go to, but had to sit in the pew. Anyhow, at 10 years old, the obvious holes in the story were front and center. It was explained to us that non-believers that were good had to sit in purgatory until the second coming of Jesus when they could Accept Jesus as their savior and head on up into Heaven.; २८/१२/०८, ११:४५ PM
Chip Ahoy म्हणाले...: If we were to hold a vote, the Roman Catholics would win, and they aren't even biblical literalists.

ORLY? The word Catholic means "universal."

I had to stop reading. This thread isn't making any sense.; २९/१२/०८, २:२९ AM
DaveW म्हणाले...: What bothered me about Mr. Blow's column was his use of 'evangelicals' when it seems to me he was referring to 'fundamentalists'. Sadly the use of these words has become very sloppy.

I was taught the catholic church believes that all religions that believe in one God had a version of the Truth but that the catholic church had the fullness of the Truth. And that it was possible, though unlikely, that people outside the church could enter heaven. I tried to find a reference for this last night but I struck out.

Dust Bunny Queen pretty well spoke for me.

The only thing I'd add is that my understanding of God is that He has unlimited mercy. Unimaginable to man, mysterious, infinite mercy.

And I'm glad too because while I try to be a better person and live according to the Law after long reflection and serious effort I've just about decided if I'm going to get to heaven I'm pretty much going to have to be struck by lightening while leaving the confessional.

And BTW, if you called me and started asking me survey questions about religion I'd be very cautious when you started asking me about whether other people were going to heaven or not. I've been trained to believe 'judge not lest ye be judged' and saying someone else is going to hell strikes me as a big no-no, whatever bar I've set for myself. Just a thought.; २९/१२/०८, ६:५१ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: You don't just sit down and start a new religion just like that. The Bible is probably the best-preserved document in all of antiquity.

There are more copies of it than any other historical document in any language.

So it stands up to the charge of "alteration".

As for Christianity?

Well, it claims to be the way. So there. Not much you could do about that.

But Christianity does not see itself as "cultural" which is why it is phenomenally successful in many different cultures.
It just sees itself as "the truth" or "reality".; २९/१२/०८, १२:०१ PM