They do in Canada now, says Swaraaj Chauhan, who illustrates his post with an astoundingly apt photograph. Hipopinion has an even more distressing photograph. (Canada might want to recognize a right not to have one's obesity appropriated to amuse and teach lessons to the normal-weight community.)
If you get a free extra seat now, won't people be clamoring to be considered one of the truly obese? Does some government agency certify that you are fat to the point of disability and thus entitled to accommodation? Or is this just a matter of airlines telling some people they'll have to pay for a second seat -- and now, they're being told they will need to give that seat for free? If the latter, some of the chubbier passengers may decide to sprawl strategically to extort extra space from the airline. If the plane is full, who gets bumped?
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Who gets bumped isn't a problem, I don't think. Airlines will just do what they always do and offer incentives to passengers willing to take a later flight. The only difference is that some flights might have an extra person or two being offered this incentive (which would be fine with me; I love free tickets in exchange for sitting around an airport for an extra couple of hours).
These are very sad situations, but no, they don't have a right. I have a friend who was too big for one seat, and he understood this perfectly. He always bought two tickets, and said he would have been embarrassed not to.
Anyone know if obesity is now classified as a disability in Canada? How does the Canadian healthcare system approach obesity? Lifestyle choice or disease?
I recently read that the Brits are charging parents of obese children with child abuse.
Stay tuned, this madness is coming to the US very soon.
The morbid obesity problem is driving health care workers crazy; patients lifts designed for 400 lbs. are inadequate, beds won't work, wheelchairs crumble, XL blood pressure cuffs are not big enough, etc. And forget about the scales working properly.
We are moving from an epidemic of morbid obesity to an epidemic of super-morbid obesity (400% of ideal body weight?).
My wife (aka the world's greatest nurse) is thinking of quitting and going back to school, before she breaks her back.
I assume they're seats together.
I'm pretty tall (6'2"). It's uncomfortable to be folded up in those little seats, especially for longer flights. Shouldn't airlines have to accomodate tall people also? People have control over their weight, but not their height.
If the plane is full, who gets bumped?
I'd guess nobody. Probably the way it'll work is that the passenger will notify the airline they're medically entitled to 2 seats when they reserve.
filed under the label:fat
aren't most body toxins stored in fat tissue before they are permanently absorbed into our internal organs and cause havoc and syndromes.
This is not going to get better any time soon.
The CDC recently reported that the belly fat of children has grown by over 65% since 1999 and recent statistics highlight a 400% increase in food allergies.
those empire dress lines are only hiding a bigger toxic waste problem.
sit ups, dancing and jogging. Stop lounging, start sweating.
I'm claustrophobic, and don't like having someone sitting in the seat next to me. Can I get a free seat too?
I am obese, even though I work out and it's mainly in my gut. I just happen to be big anyway. I am 6'4". But I need a seat belt extender in some, not all cases. I CAN fit in one seat. However, one time I was on a flight that was crowded and a supervisor went through the plane and saw that the guy next to me, who was also big (not fat, just a big guy) looked uncomfortable next to me, because we were rubbing elbows. So she told me I would have to pay for two seats. And even though it was just on one leg of my trip (actually one of the shortest hops of the 3 plane changes I had to make) I would have to pay the price of my round trip ticket for that one seat for that short hop.
I was really upset. Because the rest of the trip, no one made me pay for two seats and never since. It was just that one flight.
I feel this issue is abused and over stated, I have seen them pull this crap on overweight people who were able to sit in one seat easily. So when I read comments from people who get all high handed about this issue, it offends me. I actually think Air Canada is being humane and those of you who think otherwise, you need some empathy. Fat people need to go places too. They should not be discriminated against.
Let's remember that the airlines keep making seats smaller and keep decreasing the leg room. Even when I was a lot thinner, there still isn't enough leg room for someone my height.
Good. I think they should get the free extra seat. The "free market" has helped enable people to be fat with all the crap they've pushed on us, so now they have a responsibility to accommodate the fat people they've helped to create. This is not to say that fat people shouldn't carry some of the weight. I move that anyone who gets an extra free seat has to pay a $1000 surcharge for being an eyesore.
Or, we could just throw all of the fat people in the cargo section where they can simply sprawl out atop all of the suitcases and luggage for the entire flight. To keep them at bay, every 30 minutes a giant vent will open and spray food all over them.
***
On other note, we need to pass a proposition stating that two obese people can not get married unless or until they achieve a healthy BMI. Studies have shown that obese parents end up raising obese children, and we need to protect children.
"Proposition XXL."
i've decided not to fly to much anymore. I cannot stand the lack of leg room for my height with the added inconvenience of varicose veins. Plus, i can't sit still. I have to wiggle my feet or hips or head or something. I think i must drive other passengers crazy with how many times i rearrange my legs. I would hate sitting next to a wiggle worm like me if iwas like 90% of the pasengers who sit perfectly still.
I really will decide for auto or train in the future. I don't think i am going over the ocean again anytime soon.
"the [blank] community"
Ha!
That's great!
I was on a plane once with three 400 pounders.
Guess where they sat them?
In the emergency row. One got up to go to the bathroom and the plane actually moved. She could NOT get in the bathroom.
Wonder how she was going to help me out of the plane if we crashed?
A "right?" That's absurd.
Being fat is a disability like smoking is a disability. Do smokers have the right to smoke on the plane or a right to smokeless nicotine paid for by the airline? Do alcoholics have the right to free booze or the right that all booze be banned from the airplane while they're in recovery?
The idea is silly. You're paying for space. If you take up more space than is being sold for the price of one ticket, you have to pay for an additional ticket. Just like if you bring more luggage than your ticket accomodates, you have to pay for more cargo space.
"He always bought two tickets, and said he would have been embarrassed not to."
I find it perplexing that he's too embarrassed to not buy two tickets. That's the easy thing to do if you have money.
Yet somehow he's not too embarrassed to stop eating so much. That's the part that requires character to not want to put up with the embarrassment. It's quite easy. Don't put food in your mouth. And exercise. Hard.
And that's the dirty little secret. Canada has said that people who do have enough character to not be fat have to subsidize those that don't have that good character.
If people want to be fat, that's their business. But just like with everything else in a socialist state, it's forced into being our business too. I say "our" because we can no longer afford to farcically claim that we're not socialist too.
There's also a great free market opportunity here. An airline could position itself as the fat friendly carrier. No extra charge for extra space and special seats with a bit more room. Perhaps wider aisles or bigger bathrooms as well. Might not be possible to adopt broadly, but at least some routes could offer these options to cater to larger customers.
Hmm...transporting people costs money in proportion to how much they weigh and how much space they take up. People act as if they have a right to all this technological ease of modern society, without considering what goes into making the laws of physics work for us like this. Flying is hard. For large, heavy people, it's harder still. Charging them extra isn't discrimination, it's just the cost of business. Why should the airline have to take a loss on overweight passengers?
I know someone who is functionally disabled by tardiness. Could he get the right to delay departure until he finally gets to the airport?
Freeman Hunt,
Such a 'fat friendly' airline might work, but they couldn't offer the same prices as other airlines. More space and larger seats cost money, which is why this problem exists to start with.
"Proposition XXL".
Good one ZPS!
I went to Army-Navy game one year and it was about minus 10 on the wind chill.
Lucky for me, a 400 lb lady had the seat next to me and she blocked the vicious wind and actually threw off some body heat so I was warmer than most of the other fans.
[true story - I did not make this up].
functionally disabled by tardiness
My God! I didn't know I had a disease. This is such a relief.
Remember when OJ just couldn't get those gloves on in the courtroom? That's what's going to happen with people on planes that want to score that free extra space. They just won't be able to fit in that one seat.
Wait. This is going to start a trend.
I know someone who is functionally disabled by tardiness.
I used to work for someone like that. Almost missed a flight home because of him.
The Canadian airlines need to quit their hissy fits and all their court challenges. The fat people have spoken (and eaten).
What the airlines need to do is get creative. Ban all food from all planes. If they have to have food, make it something you have to purchase, and mark-up the price so exorbitantly that no one can afford it. A bag of nuts will cost $10,000. Movie theaters do this all the time.
Only the skinny people will fly on the airlines that ban food, and they'll be happy to do so. Most thin people find fat people an abomination and would prefer to ride on airplane without having to look at any of them. Every flight will be sold out, with ONE person in ONE seat, the way God intended.
I say the airline should apply the Foxworthy Test.
You might need two airline seats, if...
They need to roll you in flour just to find your boarding pass.
ba-dum-dum tssss
Fat is the only remaining socially acceptable prejudice. Even people that won't dis Christians have no problem ragging on fat people.
Do you fat haters think that fat people enjoy being fat? Do you think if it were as simple as not eating that they would still be so fat? Morbid obesity is a metabolic disorder (and no, I'm not talking about hypothyroidism) in which every calorie is converted into fat no matter how few calories are consumed. Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Calories details exactly how difficult it is to lose weight. There is no evidence that a calorie-restricted diet will yield sustained weight loss for obese patients. You know what happens when you exercise? Your appetite increases, and you eat more. You have to change what and how you eat to lose weight. It's not as simple as switching to small fries and Diet Coke. If it were easy, there wouldn't be this current "epidemic" of obesity.
That said, it's absurd to impose this on the Canadian airlines -- or is it on all airlines that fly into and out of Canada? If this new right is abused, you may find airlines opting to just ignore Canada as an unprofitable market, while those that remain struggle to make a profit in an already marginal industry.
The seats are too small. They are set too close. Airplanes today are cattle cars and you, the passengers, are cattle.
The airlines could send the bill for the lost seat to the corn industry. High-fructose corn syrup seems to be a factor in all this weight gain.
I had an episode I couldn't believe. It was a full flight and the later flight was the next day, long after my meeting was going to be over. It was a smaller jet, two seats on each side of the aisle. They sat the people with a "disability" first. It turned out one of the disabled was a guy who weighed about 450 pounds, and, as I found out when boarding the plane, his seat was next to mine. It was physically impossible for him to sit in a way where he didn't take up half my seat -- and I am not small or skinny. I didn't want to make an issue of it though, because the guy -- couldn't have been older than 22 -- already seemed mortified by his very existence. He wore earbuds and turned his head to the window the entire flight, never said a word to me and never moved. Since I travel so much on business, I've figured out how to entertain myself without having to move around a lot. I just imagined myself serving a two-hour prison sentence with a book and an iPhone.
But I did try to work out how the airlines could address this problem in advance without violating the obese person's civil rights. How was the airline supposed to know how fat he was when they sold him his ticket? It's all fine to say he's entitled or not entitled to the seat next to him, but what if they've sold the seat next to him? If it's a full flight, who should get bumped? The fat guy, or the guy who paid for a seat that is now being occupied by someone else's left buttock? I think they're going to have to ask people from now on to check off a box if their size will require that the seat next to theirs be kept empty. The problem with that is, of course, lots of people would check off that box not because they're obese, but because they want to have an empty seat next to them.
Only answer is to make the person pay for the second seat, and if they didn't pay for it and as a result another passenger is inconvenienced, the obese person is the one who has to move or take a later flight.
Perhaps if the flight turns out to be relatively empty, the obese person could ask for a partial refund. The extra fee might be more like purchasing a right to an empty seat, to be exercised only if needed.
The photo shows the size of someone who would need 3 seats.
Would they need to pay for a 3rd seat?
Joan -- Body for Life. You'll lose two pounds a week, to infinity.
Good afternoon. How is everyone today, that's good, I care.
As a professional who makes well into the six figures and travels frequently I hate flying.
I fly approximately 1-2 times a month to our offices in Boston, San Diego, LA, Pasadena and Santa Fe.
Many times I have to get a last minute flight and am stuck in the middle seat.
As you know, I have a killer body. I am approximately 5'11 and weigh about 165. Airline seats are cruel and I hate them. I hate everything about flying. The old, out of shape ugly flight attendants, the lack of good food, being stuffed into small seats, etc. I wish we would go back to the early 60's when flying was a priviledge and not a right. I want really hot flight attendants who wear capes, fabulous food and really expensive tickets. Let's get rid of the riff raff on the planes.
I can't imagine what someone who is overweight has to deal with. I am always deligent about not having any of my body extend beyond my seat, unless they are hot and then I extend big time.
Although, I never sit next to hot people. When I am in the concourse looking around at who will be boarding my plane my first thought is I hope I sit next to that hot one over there. But it never happens. I have never sat next to a hottie on a plane.
I believe that as paying customers we should get to pick who we sit next to on the plane before we board.
That way the fuglies are designated in an area where hopefully the rest of us won't come in any contact with them and the cute people will be able to have an enjoyable flight.
Does this post make Althouse look fat? Alas, yes.
Do we have to pay to put two comments on one post on Air Althouse?
Because I...
won't.
There are a couple of flights I love though.
The NYC/Boston Delta shuttle and NYC/DC Delta shuttle tends to have a fabulous cast.
No assigned seats. They take off every hour. You can board last minute. The flight attendants are generally above average and have seen it all. And the clientile is to die for. Professional hotties in nice clothes with excellent techie devices and wonderful reading material.
Same with the US Air Shuttle. They fly every hour between NYC/Boston and DC.
Flights I hate are holiday season flights back to Wisconsin. Loud children, infrequent flyers, bad clothes and even worse shoes. It is a travesty to have to be exposed to that type of person.
If we make the skinny people sit next to the fat people wouldn't this be proper 'load balancing'?
I have a ton of frequent flyer points so last year for Christmas I flew home first class and sat next to Barry Alvarez.
He seems arrogant. I don't like arrogant people. I like people who are real and genuine...like me.
Body for Life. You'll lose two pounds a week, to infinity.
True that. Almsot everyone I know who's lost a very large amount of weight and kept it off started with that program.
When I fly back to Wisconsin on my way to my seat I make sure all other passengers see my NY Times, expensive watch and general disgust at all of them. Same details when flying out of Madison help the flight a tad.
That is the only redeeming part of that flight...working that runway for a few minutes totally hating all of them. It makes me feel good.
Sometimes while working the runway I will make sure my NYTimes, Vanity Fair and New Yorker covers all appear at the same time....that will really show them.
Especially if I am sitting next to some thing that is reading People. I look at the People magazine, look at the thing reading it-up and down and focusing on shoes for a moment longer, and then abruptly snap my Times open to make sure we can't see each other.
I think it is important on a flight to enforce our standing in society.
Freeman- Being fat is a disability like smoking is a disability. Do smokers have the right to smoke on the plane or a right to smokeless nicotine paid for by the airline? Do alcoholics have the right to free booze or the right that all booze be banned from the airplane while they're in recovery?
Freeman, along with others, are missing the key points....at the same time each generation is getting bigger and taller, airlines modified planes originally designed for 50 rows, 4 abreadst to 5 abreast and 60 rows for revenue enhancement.
With better nutrition, and some may even say hormones in the food helping drive it - we have Japanese, Chinese men going from a 5' 3" mean height to 5' 7" in the past 40 years. Much of that has absolutely nothing to do with "fat!" and everything to do with increased overall body mass.
While obesity is a problem, we shouldn't forget that "being born bigger, each generation" and past airline, food industry action has made it legally problematic to discriminate against humans predictably growing in size and under "reasonable accomodation laws" now too large to fit in deliberately downsized accomodations.
My nephew is 6'7" and weighs 340 pounds. He is a college football lineman in super shape. He can't fit in the smaller airline seats and space the bean-counters have modified the orginal plane design to now have.
If we start making "evil, their own fault fatties pay extra...what do you do with my nephew or when black people reach an average height of 6'1' and body weight of 210 for males?
The solutions are all unattractive. Less seats mean more airfare ticket cost. Discriminating against fat people, large people, people with medical handicaps, women with very young kids - then forced to pay a lot extra - will trigger class action lawsuits. At my nephews university, the Athletics department threatened to sue an airline over it's request for paying for an extra seat for 8 of it's football players - they backed down, of course..
Of course we do have a societal interest outside the downsized airline seatspace problem with obesity...huge additional medical costs, protests that society must pay for special nutrition meals for school fatties, claims that someone is too fat to work and taxpayers must foot their "disabled" condition for the rest of their (probably short) lives.
Perhaps we do need to put fat people in a discriminatory status - once they reach morbid obesity levels - it becomes a condition that they must work to correct with medical aid - or they fall outside ADA and the obligation of others to lose money accomodating their refusal to help themselves correct a condition harmful to themselves and society. It would be necessarily intrusive...
1. Parents held to account for morbidly obese fattie kids left in "growing" danger.
2. Employers free to can employees grown too fat to do the job they were hired for and not making any progress with diet to achieve a "return to work" clearance status.
2a. Just as smokers are penalized on health care premiums employers or they get privately - way too fat people that fail to take off pounds should pay additional penalty. And if dramatically overweight people add to the cost of health care in hospitals, surgery - a "fee for uncorrected fatness" seems reasonable.
3. Schools not forced to spend huge sums on 'special needs' of hugely fat students.
4. Yes, airlines, buses, entertainment venues with close-packed seating, and certain employer situations may have to seek laws that do penalize obesity...while opening themselves up to legal scrutiny of them scrimping on human eronomics factors like reasonable seating space or workplace conditions to achieve higher profit. I confess I was thinking "Oh No!" as I saw a single black mom and 5 kids, all well above 200 lbs waiting for my connecting flight...then seeing 3 of them upgraded to 1st class as a PC "accomodation" to their condition. We may end up in a society where morbidly obese people have to show papers showing they are making medical progress - or they do suffer legal discrimination....
(Until that day arrives, however, and the laws reflect the airline downsizing of seat space for profit - Posters like James 12:52should fight like crazy against being singled out to pay extra while airlines accomodate people with other physical conditions unable to fly in the "tiny" seats..)
Titus; Why don't you simply pay the extra $50 bucks for a preferred seat?
Oh, give me a break, Skyler. He was embarrassed about both. And he wasn't rich, either. The point I was trying to make is that I don't think people should assume that bigger people expect this as a "right"!
I do want to add that I agree that the airlines have probably made the seats too small. They really don't afford much space at all.
I would not mind to sit next to Cederford's nephew.
He sounds hot.
I have never had sex in a plane and would like to.
I have exchanged eye contact with guys on planes and then did a little showey showey in the bathroom when we landed but never in the actual plane.
I was flying back to Madison a couple of summers ago and kept "exchanging glances" with this other guy. After the flight we went to the bathroom and showed each other our pee pees. I gave him my cell and he called me and I did him at his house on the west side of Madison that night.
It was exciting meeting him and looking at each others hard peepees in the louve but once I got his house the sex was not good.
I partially blame that on his choice of interior design and color pallette. He had a huge framed poster of Marilyn Monroe and a picture in his bathroom of himself in a bubble bath and another picture framed of a guy with his shirt off holding two tires. The poster said, "all men are not created equal". Also, his interior rooms were painted in awful colors. I don't like painted rooms-all white is a requirement. Painful and depressing and tacky. All of this resulted in my having a difficult time blowing my load. I kept looking at Marilyn Monroe and I was like this is an immediate softie.
That is why I don't like going to other guys homes. There is definitely going to be something that I hate. Lighting, furniture, pictures, painting, bed spread, books, music selection, soaps/shampoos, a cute spice rack, some special figurine, maybe a mask on a wall, choice of pets, pets names, sex paraphenlia, etc. If I see a cockring or dildo or pearls or string of balls or harness or tit clamps or leather vest or bandana or poppers or anything like that I am over it. And don't even get me started when I open the closet. We are going to be generally going down a bad road. Any unsightly shirts, jackets, pants, jeans, belts, ties, name brands, shoes, boots, hats, gloves, scarves, ear muffs, underwear, socks, cufflings, handbags etc is is an immediate softie.
And if anywhere, whether in the toilet or bedroom there is a display of cologne strategically placed on a special tray I am out of there.
Less is always better. Think minimal. My walls are all white, floors all wood, the only color in my loft is from my fabulous choice of prints.
I don't want to see some busy sofa or chair either.
I met a really hot guy once and everything in his place was perfect.
Except two things. He had two siamese cats. One was named Mildred Pierce and the other was named Mapplethorpe.
All I could thing of was that disney song,
"we are siamese cats...."
Instant softie.
Sorry folks, I'm not going to lose weight simply to be less offensive to your eyes. Close them, if you must. My health has been damaged enough already by trying to lose weight.
I'm obese by any definition, yet I don't have any problem fitting into one airline seat even in the cattle car section. About half the time I need a seat belt extender, half not.
On some planes there are metal boundaries between the seats and even buying a second one wouldn't do anyone any good.
The only problem I have is with the people sitting in front of me who have "back problems" and insist on reclining their seat.
I'm a good seatmate - I don't wiggle, squirm, or have to get up during the flight. I don't need to talk to you but I will respond if you want to talk. You'll never see me bringing a full meal purchased in the terminal on board with me. I'm disgusted by even the skinniest doing that.
If you have a small child, I'll help you entertain him unless you let it be known that you don't want them interacting with strangers. A look will do, I'm good at picking up hints.
Frankly, what makes flying so horrible is the lack of manners and boorish behavior by just a few passengers... some of them may be obese and it's possible a few of them may have commented on this thread.
Those are probably the same ones who would comment on how skinny my granddaughter is and ask the dear child why Mommy doesn't feed her enough. There's just no pleasing some people.
These discussions always remind me of this factoid...the average African slave had more room on the transatlantic journey than the average passenger has on the plane now.
I'm a big girl, but can still fit in the seats with the regular belt. But when one of my good buddies who is barely 5 feet tall and just under 100 lbs is uncomfortable flying, it makes me wonder if ANYBODY is ever comfortable flying any more.
BTW, Donna B, there are some sneaky things you can buy to keep the seat in front from being able to recline all the way to your lap. I have used them with much happiness. :)
Joan wrote: "There is no evidence that a calorie-restricted diet will yield sustained weight loss for obese patients."
Tell that to the people in concentration camps. Guess what. Everyone of them lost weight. There is only one way to get fat, and that's overeating -- and that's by definition.
"You know what happens when you exercise? Your appetite increases, and you eat more"
I'm not seeing the issue. Exercise, be hungry, eat less. Hunger is not prohibited. People with character understand these things.
If the seats become so terribly small and uncomfortable that no one likes them, one of the airlines will start offering roomier seats at a higher rate. You can't have the lower rate and the roomier seats. If the roomy seat is extremely important to you, you'll pay a higher fare.
Note that some major airlines already have a policy of not requiring extra large people to pay for an extra seat. That being the case, I don't see the problem. If you need and extra seat and don't want to pay for it, reward the airlines that offer it to you for free by buying their tickets.
KoryO... spill the beans about those secret sneaky things for incorrigible recliners!
The person in front of my husband (a short, skinny guy) on an overseas flight insisted on reclining, which put the back of her seat about 4 inches from his face.
Was she not intruding on space he had paid for?
I dealt with that by simply pushing her seat forward and holding it there until she complained to a flight attendant that her seat would not recline. He told her the seat must have broken and he was very well aware of what I was doing.
This post and the comments - none of which address the fundamental problem that the government is interfering with the right of contract - are more evidence in support of the following theorem: the more that governments intercede in what would normally be some sort of voluntary arrangement among free people, the less civil will be those people.
My best beloved is around 350#. Sometimes he needs the belt extender and sometimes not. Obviously he gets the window (better) or aisle seat and I sit in the middle. Sure, his waist is impressive but it's his shoulders that might trouble me, his seatmate. As it happens I find them the perfect height for a well-pillowed snooze. Together we occupy less than our allotted seat space. Finally, he does more than his share of helping others wrestle their bags into and out of the overheads; those huge shoulders mean ridiculous strength. I have never had a more pleasant traveling companion. And oh, by the way, if looking at him offends your tender eyes, then avert them.
Skyler--
That may be the first time I've seen someone pull a reductio ad Hitlerum to lose an argument in this particular way. The solution to obesity is concentration camp-level starvation? Really? I've often thought the fat activists were a bit alarmist in claiming that their opponents were health Nazis, but then I read your comment...
Extended periods of severe starvation will cause weight loss, but exacerbate other health problems and result in an increased setpoint and decreased metabolism should the person ever stop starving himself. This is why pretty much everyone who dieted at one point and stopped ended up at a higher weight than they started with, and a greater propensity for metabolic diseases such as diabetes. They'd have been healthier if they had just continued eating normally!
"It just takes character to lose weight"--bullshit. Perfect reduced calorie nutrition may healthfully get a person to around 10% under their set point, but if their set point is 250 lbs., that just gets them down to 225 and idiots like you will still call them fat eyesores.
"Fat people should just eat less." "Gay people should just stop having sex." "Stupid people should just study harder." Forcing different people to fit into a bigot's view of perfection is wrong and counterproductive. Calling your bias "good character" doesn't change the fact that it's an unscientific bias.
"Fat people should just eat less." "Gay people should just stop having sex." "Stupid people should just study harder."
Two of these things are fundamentally necessary for any self-improvement. The other one, nobody has ever said.
Anyway, Hopper, I hope you realize that you have done nothing than string together sophistries and straw-man attacks. Try again, and harder, since you aren't very good at arguing.
Or, we could just throw all of the fat people in the cargo section where they can simply sprawl out atop all of the suitcases and luggage for the entire flight.
LOL my very thought.
Actually, people are just bigger than they have been in the past. Taller, larger and yes heavier. Airlines are trying to cram us all into seats that were built for people 50 years ago.
In antique stores the vintage clothing that adults in the 20's 30's and 40's woreis all so tiny. Little gloves. Little feet. Tiny dresses. Even the men's hats and shoes are small.
That being said.....if you have eaten yourself into the size of a small hippo or have and ass as wide as 4 people, you shouldn't get anything free. Pay up tubby.
none of which address the fundamental problem that the government is interfering with the right of contract
Several comments have addressed that.
I find Donna B's comment baffling. In what bizarre, alternate universe it is wrong or unfair to recline your seat on an overseas flight? I never recline during dinner, which crowds the person behind me unnecessarily (I wish most other customers were as kind...), but after that, most the plane is trying to get some sleep. You have a right to recline in the seat you paid for, not a right for the space in front of you.
I once had a woman hold my seat and refuse to let it recline... I complained to the flight attendant, who made her let go. If the person in front of you reclines, you recline too, then you'll get back those four inches.
When I was young, I remember thinking that people who flew first class were ridiculous. What are you getting? Some extra leg room and a wider seat? A dessert?
Then, later, I flew first class...
I agree that it's pretty silly to get mad when someone reclines their seat in front of you, particularly on a long flight. I also aisle people who get all annoyed when you need to get up. That makes no sense to me.
Seven Machos--
Try thinking harder before posting dismissive hand-waving.
"Gay people should just not have sex"--this has been the "tolerant conservative" position, a form of "love the sinner, hate the sin" for ages. It's not that they hate homosexuals or think they shouldn't exist, it's just that homosexual behavior is wrong. It's not like we hate the people or anything like that, it's just that their behavior is morally wrong for some reason, probably because we just find it icky.
The attitude towards imperfect fat people is much like those old-fashioned attitudes towards gays; it expects people to deny a basic human urge that they, as a result of their unfortunate bodies, can only enjoy in a way that causes people like you and Skyler to say, "Ick!" It's only fat people that have to subsist on leafy greens at 1000 calories a day; I doubt you have a problem with the skinny and average people enjoying Thanksgiving feasts, eating steak dinners, and generally celebrating with food as humans have always done.
Of course stupid people should study, and fat people shouldn't gorge themselves (much like everyone should study, and everyone should avoid gorging themselves), but it's silly to think that every fat person gorges himself, and every stupid person is a lazy bum who didn't pay attention in school. There are natural differences among humans that often can't be overcome to meet your peculiar biases.
I, and many other folks with unfortunately low metabolisms, refuse to starve ourselves and damage our bodies to meet your visual approval. We refuse to accept your moral judgment based primarily on your irrational squeamishness. We refuse to deny ourselves the pleasures of human life to avoid your dirty looks.
Edgy complained, " The solution to obesity is concentration camp-level starvation? Really? I've often thought the fat activists were a bit alarmist in claiming that their opponents were health Nazis, but then I read your comment..."
Some people don't really see the forest for the trees. The obvious point is that eating less does cause one to lose weight. No matter what. Period, end of discussion, silly metabolic rate myths need not apply.
"Perfect reduced calorie nutrition may healthfully get a person to around 10% under their set point, but if their set point is 250 lbs., that just gets them down to 225 and idiots like you will still call them fat eyesores."
I didn't say that they were eyesores. I didn't even say that they can't be lovable people. What I said is that they lack the fortitude and character to lose weight. You'd think this would go without saying.
If they wish to not have that fortitude and character, then they should pay for their own penalty seat.
And yes this is exactly why socialism is so inherently evil. Because in a nonsocialist state fat people can live in jolly harmony with their limited ambitions for their health and appearance. But in a socialist state we're obliged to point out that it's their own fault and not our obligation to subsidize.
In what bizarre, alternate universe it is wrong or unfair to recline your seat on an overseas flight?
In the bizarre, alternate universe I live in, it's wrong to do something that causes unavoidable physical pain to another person. Reclining your seat would fall into this category. When the row pitch is such that the person behind you has their knees pressed into the seat in front when it's upright, what do you think is happening when you slam the seat back into their legs?
Sheesh.
I weigh nearly 300 pounds. Like Donna B., I can fit in an airline seat (widthwise. Lengthwise is another matter, see above) and I have no trouble fastening the seatbelt, but I wonder whether demanding that people over a certain size/weight/hip measurement buy a second seat could be a revenue source for airlines. Suppose I get to the airport and they want me to buy another seat - can I refuse and prove I can sit in one seat?
Hopper -- Right. Genetics is responsible for your fat ass. Exercise and healthy eating work for others, sure, but not you.
You are exhibiting a selfish and immature, relativistic determinism. You are suggesting not only are people fat, or stupid, but that they can be no other way because their fate is determined. Moreover, the people who are wrong aren't the fat ones and the stupid ones -- no, no! -- it's people who would dare not approve of fatness and stupidity.
The gay thing is purely a red herring. You don't know one person who believes that.
I, and many other folks with unfortunately low metabolisms, refuse to starve ourselves and damage our bodies to meet your visual approval. We refuse to accept your moral judgment based primarily on your irrational squeamishness. We refuse to deny ourselves the pleasures of human life to avoid your dirty looks.
Get a grip. The issue is should you get something for free that others have to pay for just because you are "oversized" for whatever reason....low metabolism or a lifetime of eating improperly with no exercise. Whatever. There is a difference between overweight,(which truth be told, many of us ARE overweight) and being so morbidly obese that you can't fit into a chair.
The other issue is the government interfering, AGAIN, in the free operation of business. It's economic. Airplanes use a fuel to weight ratio. If you have 100 very fat people on the plane taking up two seats for the price of one, the airline will never be able to make any money. Same thing applies if you have 100 skinny people with extremely heavy luggage that isn't being charged a surcharge for overweight. It is pure economics.
It isn't all about you either. Get over yourself.
I agree that if you have to take up a second seat, you should pay for it. My posts were directed at those who think that fatness is a sign of "lack of character", "laziness", or some other form of immorality. That's all. It never fails to amaze how people turn an issue of body chemistry into one of morality, character, fortitude, or some other quality that makes them feel morally superior.
Seat reclining is just wonderful as long as everyone wants to recline. Until you come to that back row where the seats don't recline.
If you want to sleep on an overseas flight, go first class and get a bed-seat, or whatever they're called.
Most of the supposedly skinny commenters here who think just reducing calories will cause one to lose weight and still be healthy are merely foolish and uneducated.
Obesity is not a disability and is not correlated with heart disease and diabetes UNLESS the obese person has also engaged in severe calorie reduction to try to lose weight.
I understood what you meant, Edgehopper.
Love the free market hate, ZPS.
Because one segment of "the free market" somehow makes people fat, another segment of "the free market" should pay.
But, of course, as John Stodder points out, obesity (and diabetes) in this country may well be due to the abundance of high fructose corn syrup which--ta dah!--is so abundant because of government interference.
The government may not be responsible for all evils, but when it has its hand in everything, it's hard to tell, isn't it?
If I ship a package by fedex for 1 day delivery, I'm paying based on the weight and size of the shipment.
Why should airlines charge by the seat. The should charge by the pound. Everybody has to get on a scale and pay accordingly.
;-)
I think the question comes down to whether the airlines are selling seats, or if they're charging "per passenger" In a nation full of like-sized people, then seats and passengers are equal in numbers.
Airlines could pull out the one-size fits all seats and provide a variety of seat sizes just assign fatties to the wide seats.
Body for Life. You'll lose two pounds a week, to infinity.
Thanks, but you misunderstand -- my problem with weight has to do with maintaining it, not shedding excess pounds.
Just because I've never been obese doesn't mean I don't have an interest in the subject. I'm the only thin person in my family, although one of my sisters has made great strides the past couple of years by eliminating sweets and starches nearly completely.
I'll say it again: if losing weight were as simple as eating less and exercising more, do you think so many people would be fat and miserable? It's sad that you have such low opinions of others. The truth is, the general population has been slammed with the consequences of the bogus "fat makes you fat" mantra of the last 40 years, when there is ample scientific evidence demonstrating that fat is metabolically neutral, whereas carbs provoke insulin spikes that lead to fat storage.
Joan wrote,
"if losing weight were as simple as eating less and exercising more, do you think so many people would be fat and miserable?"
Um, yes. They are. And it is that simple. Most people having trouble losing weight don't really understand the degree to which they should exercise and eat less.
Gay people should just not have sex
Unless it's on a plane. And the gays are thin.
Have you ever had gay sex with a thin person on a plane? It's mind blowing.
There is a modest percentage (10-20 percent?) of fat people who are fat because of a medical/genetic condition that they have very little or no control over, so for those people, you're ok in my book. Eat up and enjoy! You deserve it.
For the others...you are lazy pigs. Sometimes, you just have to be really fucking hungry and suffer. I used to be about 20 pounds overweight during my "awkward" phase after high school, and you know how I lost it? Diet and exercise. If that doesn't work for you...there's always crystal meth.
XOXO--Zach
Thanks, but you misunderstand -- my problem with weight has to do with maintaining it, not shedding excess pounds.
Body for Life does address maintaining a new, lower weight. I would highly recommend that book as a starting point to anyone seeking to lose a significant amount of weight.
I don't have a problem with people being fat, but I do have a problem with people telling fat people who want to lose weight that it's impossible. That's a lie. It is not impossible, and it makes people feel needlessly helpless to tell them that it is.
If you're fat, and you're fine with or even like being fat, that's great. But if you're fat, and you want to lose weight, don't believe the garbage that you can't do it or that you'll sacrifice your health. All of that is hokum.
Crash dieting is silly, but if you approach your diet and exercise sensibly, you can lose weight in a healthy way and keep it off. Again, I would recommend Body for Life. Subscribe to magazines like Oxygen. Or, in short, for exercise, focus on strength training, and in diet focus on eating plenty of fiber and protein which will make you feel sated more quickly and for a longer period of time. (No, I'm not endorsing the low carb approach, just more protein and fiber in one's diet.)
Losing weight isn't easy, but it is doable, and I hate it when people try to evangelize that fat is forever whether you like it or not.
This has been totally OT, but I can't just let the defeatism fly. What if someone who is working hard to lose weight is reading this thread?
Skyler, though not a Marine, my daughter was in the Army. To maintain her weight, she ate dry salads and 6 oz of meat per day, less than 1000 calories per day.
You know she got enough exercise, but barely had the energy to get through it. She was malnourished and exhausted.
You simply do not know what you are talking about.
Freeman Hunt -- you are absolutely correct that most people can lose to what is a healthy weight for their body.
Unfortunately that healthy weight may not please the aesthetics of the "fat is icky" crowd or the arbitrary tables behind the BMI measurement.
Hey dieters! If you need some inspiration, just watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_3BXG3texY
Freeman Hunt, my blog crush, is correct. Let me sum up Body For Life for anyone who wants to lose weight and keep it off.
1. You eat six small meals a day. I use Eating for Life, the cookbook, exclusively.
2. You go to the gym six times a week. Three days is 20 minutes of cardiovascular work on a machine that is intense but not outrageous. The other three days is weights (preferably free weights).
3. One day a week is Free Day. You don't exercise and you eat whatever you want, period. You absolutely pig out.
4. The non-exercise day and the Free Day can be different days.
I promise that you will lose two pounds a week until you start looking gaunt, if that's what you want.
This is not a paid endorsement. I lost 30 pounds, though, and have kept it off. If I were to pay for Body for Life what it has been worth to me, it would be in the tens of thousands of dollars.
I'm not talking about maintaining a new, lower weight. I'm talking about not losing weight. I'm a good weight now but recently lost five pounds inexplicably. Lots of people would be happy with that but the last time I started losing weight mysteriously I was eventually diagnosed with cancer. I just finished establishing a wardrobe for my healthier weight and I will be pissed if I lose any more and none of my clothes fit me.
I concur with Freeman and Seven Machos that it is possible to lose weight, even lots of it. But you can't do it while eating a Standard American Diet, even with portion control, if you have an impaired insulin metabolism, which goes by many names: metabolic syndrome, Syndrome X, pre-diabetes being a few. This is a real medical condition that affects many if not most morbidly obese people. They must get their insulin metabolism working properly if they want to lose weight, and the right diet and exercise can do that. But low fat diets won't help and in fact can make the situation even worse.
"You know she got enough exercise, but barely had the energy to get through it. She was malnourished and exhausted."
I know no such thing. I know that there are many jobs in the Marine Corps that don't require but the minimum of physical exertion, in the form of a physical fitness test every six months. I'm sure that there are army jobs that are similar.
I don't know your daughter or the details of this anecdote. There are certainly people out there that have medical problems. I'm not talking about them. But I would posit that they are more often claimed than real.
And that's how we get back to the example of Canada and its socialism that we are rapidly about to adopt or have already adopted. With the rise of socialism, we must be hyper vigilant against this over-claiming of being medically defective. We must demand a very high standard of proof when such people will pose a major threat to the viability of our socialist healthcare system.
Before we could be content to chuckle privately at the tomfoolery of the people who claim to have a "metabolic" disorder as they shove twinkies in their maws all day. But with the approaching promise of nationalized healthcare, such people become a threat to the rest of us. I or someone in my family might have a real medical problem and anyone who abuses medical resources because their ill health is caused by their own behavior will pose a risk.
I will do my best to advocate for enforced and monitored rigorous exercise regimines for all people benefitting from our pending national healthcare system. If you don't run and document that you've run 35 miles a week prior to your illness, you get no medicine.
We're about to live the parable of Ayn Rand's Twentieth Century Motor Company.
Donna B, it's called the Knee Defender. Love it, love it, love it....
And before someone goes postal on me for using them, please be advised that sometimes having long legs is not a blessing. I'm sick and tired of getting my kneecaps bruised (and being able to get to my damn tylenol to deal with the pain caused by the moron in front of me) because someone thinks they have a God-given right to recline their seat....as fast as possible. Sorry, you don't. Learn some manners and stop being inconsiderate.
But it seems like that argument is that if I'm on a fourteen hour flight (I live in Asia, my family is in the US, this is when the reclining issue comes into play for me), and the guy in front of me is fully reclined (and they guy in front of him, etc.), then you're saying *I* don't get to recline unless you say so? I don't buy it, I'm sorry. I once had an airline comp me thousands of frequent flier miles because I had a seat that didn't recline for a transpacific flight - they looked at it as a right for the passenger, and when a complete trip takes 24 hours to complete, you're damn right I'm going to try to get some sleep on the plane.
Now, I always look behind me to check try position and recline slowly, and I'm always willing to negotiate for a partial recline, but sitting straight up for that long causes me blinding back pain. Why should my back suffer for your knees? Rather than employ sneaky tricks to prevent reclining, try negotiation.
You'll never see me bringing a full meal purchased in the terminal on board with me. I'm disgusted by even the skinniest doing that.
Why disgusted, aside from the substandard fare available in many airline terminals? You're lucky. You can probably go more than three hours - five, six, or seven even! - between meals and not have a hungry monster inside you, screaming for food with a ferocity that rivals the blood thirst of a horror movie's villain. Your friends probably don't say, with some love and some fear, that you're like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde when you're hungry. Apparently, you never thought that three meals a day was part of Gitmo's torture routine.
Yes, I'm jealous of everyone like you. I take out my jealousy by making y'all smell, look at, and drool over my caprese sandwiches on long-distance flights.
I've heard of two cases where a passenger was banned from flying by an airline (but accepted by another) and know a person who was charged double for two seats--involuntarily. In Europe, on the other hand...
Skyler - I know she got enough exercise. Marines don't do daily PT these days? Maybe the Army doesn't either now. They did then, unless the temperature was lower than 10 degrees F.
Her JOB didn't require much physically, but that didn't eliminate weight checks and PT tests.
I did not say my daughter had medical problems OTHER than fatigue and exhaustion because to keep her weight at acceptable Army levels (even with daily PT) she gained weight on more than 1000 calories a day.
She's perfectly healthy now at 40 lbs over the Army's idea of the ideal weight. And at this weight, with a normal caloric intake combined with 3x a week at the gym (plus chasing an 18 mo. old) she doesn't gain any more.
This weight is HER ideal weight. What I have a problem with is it being classified as unhealthy and overweight by you and others like you who really just want to disparage anyone who doesn't meet your standard of perfection.
As for the threat of excess medical costs because of "fads" such as the "obesity epidemic" you have not done your research. People who are overweight according to "accepted" BMI measures are more often than not healthier than those of a so-called normal weight.
My husband was a Marine and he has always been naturally slender. He also eats "right" as far as loving fruits and vegetables better than anything else. He's the one who has had three heart attacks, colon cancer, and is on medication for Type II diabetes, high cholesterol and high blood pressure.
But he looks really good!
My BMI puts me in the obese range and I don't deny that I'm fat. I don't think I have a metabolic disease and neither does my doctor.
What I do know is that after two years of a medically supervised dieting and exercise program, I hadn't lost much weight. It was suggested I have bariatric surgery and I did. I lost my hair, my strength and in the end it resulted in a permanent weight loss of 25 lbs.
Bariatric surgery is the real drag on medical resources because far too often it causes additional problems without resulting in substantial weight loss. I'm one of the luckier ones. But I do have to have a hernia repaired now, caused by the incision to do the bariatric surgery.
There is no clear scientific evidence that obesity causes any particular disease. Its status as a risk factor is called into question by quite a few studies as well.
On the other hand, there is substantial scientific evidence that continual dieting does cause significant health problems, with the extreme cases seen in anorexics and bulimics.
My point is that obesity is not a medical defect. It isn't a disease and doesn't cause disease and I'm really tired of skinny people saying it is and does.
I am, of course, not talking about the very rare cases, all of which make the news because they weigh 700 or 800 pounds and cannot even get out of their beds. That kind of MORBID obesity has always been rare -- that's why it's newsworthy.
In reality, there is no obesity epidemic, and especially not one in children.
KoryO - thanks!
Merry, I am actually very sympathetic to your problem. Fourteen hour flights cannot ever be very comfortable.
If you're willing to negotiate for a partial recline, you're not one of the people I'm talking about.
The particular person whose seat I pushed forward spent at least half the flight leaning over the seat in front of her talking to a friend. She was truly just being obnoxious.
I think a lack of compassion is a character flaw.
Joan,
There are several jobs in the Marines, such as the air wing or recruiting duty to name two off the top of my head, where no one exercises unless they spend their own time doing it.
I don't think anyone thinks that 40 pounds over the army limits will cause your daughter to need an extra airplane seat. Depending on her height, that's really not the category we're discussing. That's just being plump, it's not obese. In the pending healthcare industry nationalization, such irresponsibility will no longer be allowed, so perhaps she should consider another "ideal" weight, but it still won't require a second seat on an airplane.
"I think a lack of compassion is a character flaw."
And granting compassion to those who create their own fate despite warnings and common sense are not really compassionate. They're enablers.
Skyler, you're confusing me and Donna. She's the one with the daughter in the Army. My kids are still in elementary school.
That said, your ideas about the coming nationalized health care and impending fitness regime are insane. Who is going to implement and enforce that regime, hmmm? What's the penalty for not putting in your exercise hours? How much of a productivity hit do you think our GDP can withstand? Even the Nazis weren't that crazy.
Skyler, I think compassion is felt, not granted, but I know we will disagree on that. I think you can feel compassion and give advice/care/opinion compassionately without enabling. I'd like to err, even if I'm going to risk people such as yourself's condemnation, on that side.
Anyway, judge me as you will. Of course you are free to do that.
I once was wedged between two very fat people on a flight from DC to LA. I am not small, but at least I can fit in once seat.
Worst thing was these two were flying together and were talking the entire flight. I offered to move so they could sit next to each other, but they said no thank you.
Zachary Paul Sire said...
Good. I think they should get the free extra seat. The "free market" has helped enable people to be fat with all the crap they've pushed on us, so now they have a responsibility to accommodate the fat people they've helped to create.
I have a friend who says McDonalds shoves food down his throat by advertising. I tell him he has a very weak mind. You too ZPS. Turn in your adult card and make yourself someone's ward since life's decisions are too difficult for you to take responsibility for.
I think a lack of compassion is a character flaw.
And so is making multiple excuses for your own faults and blaming others.
People can be overweight, meaning outside the ideal BMI, without being unhealthy, diseased or looking bad at all. In fact a person who is not bone skinny is more attractive and is more healthy. The models that we see in magazines are abnormally thin.
The difference that WE are talking about is being so overweight, obese that you can't do normal things like sit in an airline seat, a chair in a restaurant, a seat in a theater, get out of a car without help, walk up a flight of stairs, walk around the grocery store instead of riding a motorized scooter, use a public toilet without breaking it, be able to buy clothing that isn't designed by Omar the Tent Maker. There is absolutly no excuse for getting yourself in such a disgusting state.
And get off of the dieting doesn't work, crying meme. It does work if you follow the sensible Body for Life rules. It takes time and discipline. You didn't pack on those pounds of blubber overnight.
My husband was diagonosed with type 2 Diabetes several years ago and we drastically changed our eating and exercising habits. It took about 1 1/2 year to lose the initial weight the doctor required of him (about 50 pounds). As a nice side effect, I lost a few lbs myself :-). Exercising is a pain to begin with. So much easier to find something else to do than take an afternoon walk after work or go to the gym 3 mornings a week. But if you make it routine, then it becomes a natural part of your life. As a result over the past years, he no longer needs any medication to control the condition.
Quit making excuses.
I wasn't disputing any of that, Dust Bunny Queen.
And by the way, I am not obese. I'm active and athletic. I simply know and have loved plenty of people who are.
I don't believe in shielding these people from looking at the truth of things. I think that can be done compassionately, without calling them weak in character and fat asses, though.
"I don't believe in shielding these people from looking at the truth of things. I think that can be done compassionately, without calling them weak in character and fat asses, though."
Then you're not really being truthful. Fat ass is a very crass term that I would never use. But to properly recognize that they are lacking in character in a forum such as this is just being truthful. It's not something you'd say at a cocktail party of the obese, but in a frank discussion of the issue, it's appropriate.
Fair enough, Skyler.
I am certainly not suggesting that somebody who cannot fit in an airplane seat shouldn't have to pay for whatever space it takes to hold them. To want it free, to call obesity a disability which must be accommodated IS a character flaw.
Being a fat ass really isn't.
Besides, I prefer to be called a lard ass.
Besides, I prefer to be called a lard ass.
Now, now. Don't go and be dissing lard. It makes wonderful pie crusts. :-)
The seats are too small. They are set too close.
Damn straight. Did we have these problems before the airlines shrunk all the seats? I am 5’6’’ and my legs are banging against the seat in front of me; I feel for anyone taller than that. My boss at 5 foot tall fits fine, but she’s 5 foot tall!
The question I have about this charging for an extra seat is, do they charge you if the plane is not full? Because if so, that’s BS. I can see charging if you literally cannot fit in the seat and they have to bump somebody, but if the plane isn’t full that shouldn’t be an issue.
Oh, and Good Calories Bad Calories was an excellent book and made some very good points about following bad advice, driven by very bad science, has made our country fatter.
I'm not seeing the issue. Exercise, be hungry, eat less. Hunger is not prohibited. People with character understand these things.
The GCBC book has a whole chapter on hungery, and how it has been ignored by the diet and medical industry as a factor.
Seriously, it's really, really good.
Worst thing was these two were flying together and were talking the entire flight. I offered to move so they could sit next to each other, but they said no thank you.
That's when you flip out the laptop and start typing in 72pt Courier:
ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKE JACK A DULL BOY
ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKE JACK A DULL BOY
ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKE JACK A DULL BOYALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKE JACK A DULL BOYALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKE JACK A DULL BOYALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKE JACK A DULL BOYALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKE JACK A DULL BOY
When I read all these responses to Darcy's view on compassion, I find myself thinking:
Yeah! And all those alcoholics should just stop drinking!
I wonder how many of the people decrying the obese's lack of character have compulsions of their own, of one kind or another.
fellas, if u have an actual legitemate opinion post it, if not keep it 2 urselves, no one needs ne rude comment to made about them
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