September 23, 2008
"Obama dismissed Mr. Ayers as just 'a guy who lives in my neighborhood,' and 'not somebody who I exchange ideas with on a regular basis.'"
Stanley Kurtz has the story: "Obama and Ayers Pushed Radicalism On Schools."
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295 comments:
1 – 200 of 295 Newer› Newest»This is the ultimate litmus test for "media bias".
Obama has been caught red handed lying about his relationship to a major political figure in order to hide his extreme views.
If the media continues to ignore this story they will forfeit all credibility.
This is an easy one.
Batten down the hatches....
Incoming!
Note tenses.
Its hard to get away from guys in your neighborhood. Your parents won't move and there are always a few of them who throw rocks at cars and you get in trouble because you are around them when it happens.
I don't see this as any more than a coincidence, move along.
Speaking of litmus test I'm wondering if the liberal media will ever ask McCain what he's learned from being knee deep in the Keating 5 scandal and how it compares to the current S&L scandal. It is topical I would think.
Ain't gonna work this time fellas. This election is about how the U.S. has gotten itself into one of the worst economic AND foreign policy position since the WWII/Great Depression era. So, you all can try the ol' Willy Horton/flag burning/swift boating side shows but the American people clearly are not buying it this time around.
Sweet. A Bill Ayers thread. This is gonna be fun.
Wow. That's a whole lotta nuthin'.
Anybody here read Samuel Alinsky?
The Samuel Alinsky manual "Rules For Radicals" is rather shocking in it's total disregard for ethics and Socialist goals achieved........"BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY".
"Rules For Radicals" by Mr. Alinsky should be read as an Althouse book group.
I don't know how anyone can elect a President who follows the teachings of Mr. Alinsky.
RULES FOR RADICALS, by Saul Alinsky
"What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. The Prince was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. Rules for Radicals is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away"
----Saul Alinsky
_____________________
"Change" indeed !
ZOMG HE'S A TERRORIST! I JUST POOPED IN MY PANTS!
So Mr. Kurtz got into the hidden dusty files and this essay is supposed to tell us the big shocking news that he discovered. What did he find out, Obama and Ayres both worked to improve urban failing schools!!!!! I hope that the readers of the WSJ are shocked.
Obama should come clean on Ayers- Code Pink too. It would gain him the kind of votes he needs, for less than the cost of those he'd lose.
Let's hear from the people who seriously defend Ayers for a change.
Ayers wants schools to "confront issues of inequity, war, and violence."
We can't have that! That's unAmerican!
""Obama dismissed Mr. Ayers as just 'a guy who lives in my neighborhood,' and 'not somebody who I exchange ideas with on a regular basis.'""
Kurtz has drilled down to the real truth. Ayers is not just "a guy who lives in my neighborhood," he's also "a guy who showed up at six board meetings I chaired back in 1995."
Kurtz left out the important fact that the CAC had an Executive Director, Ken Rolling, while Obama merely presided over the BoD.
If you want to learn about the CAC from a source who actually studied it, and who has no axe to grind, read this:
http://ccsr.uchicago.edu/publications/p0b06.pdf
If you want to read information about the CAC that was gathered by someone with an axe to grind, but who still has a sense of fair play, read law prof Steve Diamond's Global Labor and Politics blog.
Note that Obama did such a good job chairing the BoD of the CAC, he later was asked to join the boards of the Joyce Foundation and the Woods Fund.
garage mahal said...
"Speaking of litmus test I'm wondering if the liberal media will ever ask McCain what he's learned from being knee deep in the Keating 5 scandal and how it compares to the current S&L scandal. It is topical I would think."
That would be a good question for the debate, actually - generalized enough that Obama could answer too. Something like "what was, in hindsight, your greatest error in judgment, and what did you learn or take away from it?"
Whether it's the sweet old commie in his book, the Rev Wright, or Bill Ayers, BHO seems very comfortable with theses type of folk.
Going from memory here, but didn't Bush and Kerry get a question like that in a debate, Simon?
Bush said something like, "I made some bad hires."
fls wrote: "Ayers wants schools to "confront issues of inequity, war, and violence.""
No, we can't have that friend! We need High School graduates who can do math and write well enough and who have a smattering of critical thinking skills.
We DESPERATELY need hard science education so that we can compete with other countries in terms of advanced theory and practice and lead the world in innovation as we have since WWII.
Now I am all about righting injustice! I only go to court on child abuse cases in which there is some injustice to be righted, let me tell you!
But I am thinking that a unrepentent murderer is not a competent person to set educational theory.
And I am also thinking that school is a better place to learn about math and reading than some bloody handed Commie has been's minority opinion on justice.
Ayers deserves to die for the murders he committed. What can he teach anyone about violence? How to make a better bomb to kill more innocent people? As an infamous murdered of the innocent, I do not see how you can write what you wrote dude.
Think it over.
Trey
Trey
what was, in hindsight, your greatest error in judgment, and what did you learn or take away from it?"
McCain:
"Jinking right instead of left when I got shot down."
"Cheating on Carol."
"Inventing the Blackberry, tee hee."
"Blowing off my engineering classes at the Academy"
Would it be asking too much for a some TV reporter to walk up to Mr. Ayers on the street or find his office or home and ask him for an interview?
In the olden days, Mike Wallace would have mugged the guy in the street.
Ayers wants schools to "confront issues of inequity, war, and violence."
Actually it would be better if schools confronted issues like literacy, mathematics and science.
Just sayin
"What did he find out, Obama and Ayres both worked to improve urban failing schools!!!!! I hope that the readers of the WSJ are shocked."
I'm going to guess you think that the standardized test scores rocketed up. After millions of dollars and lots of ideological struggle the schools are worse off.
My proof ...Obama's kids go to private school. 'Nuff said.
Speaking of "...the ultimate litmus test for "media bias."
Wasn't John McCain right in the middle of the last great financial scandal in our country...you remember: The Keating Five scandal?
Why don't we hear more about that?
Michael - so leaden and boring. Garage already raised exactly the same point but did it much more artfully. With you, I know the tune you're getting at but it's like watching a six year old beginner claw their way through it on a violin.
This has been my entire problem with how the media has behaved during this campaign. They have never challenged any aspect of Obama's self-constructed narrative. Here is the first attempt and it's from a conservative author and columnist.
Sarah Palin says she's an advocate for special needs kids and the media says "Oh really?" and proceed to investigate her budget approvals.
John McCain says he wants to regulate Wall Street the media says "Oh really?" and proceed to investigate his efforts to deregulate industries.
Barack Obama says he's a really great guy who's going to bring everyone together to get things done and the media says "Oh really? That's so nice!"
"In his early days as a freshman senator, McCain was known for accepting contributions from Charles Keating Jr., flying to the banker's home in the Bahamas on company planes and taking up Keating's cause with U.S. financial regulators as they investigated him."
Why aren't we hearing more about this?
I wonder how the media would react to the news that McCain or Sarah Palin launched her career from the living room of Timothy McVeigh (as Obama launched his in Ayers home).
Somehow, I think they would react differently....
Michael said: Wasn't John McCain right in the middle of the last great financial scandal in our country...you remember: The Keating Five scandal?
Please stick to the topic this time.
Thanks!
VariableSpin said..."Barack Obama says he's a really great guy who's going to bring everyone together to get things done and the media says "Oh really? That's so nice!"
That a ridiculous comment.
The press and every yahoo on the internet have been vetting Obama for over two years, and he's articulated his plans and potential policies over and over again.
You just don't want to hear it.
Professor Althouse--
You are being unusually quiet on this subject.
What do you think?
Sincerely,
A. Concerned Citizen
The CAC's agenda flowed from Mr. Ayers's educational philosophy, which called for infusing students and their parents with a radical political commitment, and which downplayed achievement tests in favor of activism.
Who cares if the children learn to reading, communication, mathematics, science, or anything useful? They can only graduate if they are infused with radical commitment. They get a scholarship to a community organizer school. They can be subject to the life of slavery as community organizers.
CAC translated Mr. Ayers's radicalism into practice. Instead of funding schools directly, it required schools to affiliate with "external partners," which actually got the money. Proposals from groups focused on math/science achievement were turned down. Instead CAC disbursed money through various far-left community organizers, such as the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (or Acorn).
ACORN is the organization which several members were indicted across the country for vote fraud and other election irregularities; all felonies. It was founded by the leader of the SEIU, a very politically corrupt union.
Sorry L.E. Lee, but this baby's got legs!!
Ayers deserves to die for the murders he committed.
Ayers claims never to have killed anyone, and in all that I have read about him, he has never been tied to any deaths. His girlfriend blew herself up, apparently while making a bomb.
Note that Obama did such a good job chairing the BoD of the CAC, he later was asked to join the boards of the Joyce Foundation and the Woods Fund.
The same Joyce Foundation that gave about $3 million in grants to anti-gun organizations?
The Woods Foundation... Hmmm. Didn't they give $75,000 to a pal of Yassar Arafat while Mr. Obama was on the board?
MM,
this piece is past tense because the money ran out. What is not said here is that this was 49 million in Annenberg funds matched by another 100 million in public and private funds. pissed away, not on improving science/math/reading skills, but on social justice issues. not spent on fixing schools, but funneled to "commmunity groups" wih PC agenda's.
On previous threads, the other side talked about how Ayers had reformed, left bomb making and became an education expert. The education he has in mind is political, not the 3 R's
like somebody else said. The proof is that Obama's kids don'tgo to public school, unlike McCain's and Palin's that did.
surely the Chicago schools had a better use for 150 million than this. Now compare this to Obama's education plans and manditory public serice stuff. It's the same Ayers stuff writ large.
Mr. Obama once conducted "leadership training" seminars with Acorn, and Acorn members also served as volunteers in Mr. Obama's early campaigns.
Is it any wonder? Did they use vote fraud to help him?
Michael
I'm sure you'll provide links to all the numerous skeptical investigations of Barack Obama's relationships and proclaimed bipartisanship.
They simply aren't there. The media simply do not show the same skepticism and curiosity when it comes to Obaama.
"So Mr. Kurtz got into the hidden dusty files and this essay is supposed to tell us the big shocking news that he discovered. What did he find out, Obama and Ayres both worked to improve urban failing schools!!!!!"
But they didn't improve public schools. Their own records shows that test scores remained static. Of course. they weren't trying to improve test scores anyway. That would legitimize the public school system. What they were trying to do is radicalize it.
The Senate Ethics Committee probe of the Keating Five began in November 1990, and committee Special Counsel Robert Bennett recommended that McCain and Glenn be dropped from the investigation. They were not. McCain believes Democrats on the committee blocked Bennett's recommendation because he was the lone Keating Five Republican.
In February 1991, the Senate Ethics Committee found McCain and Glenn to be the least blameworthy of the five senators. (McCain and Glenn attended the meetings but did nothing else to influence the regulators.)
That four to one (D to R) ratio probably still holds for the Fannie Mae mess. It's probably a good rule of thumb for all 'bi-partisan' scandals
The Obama campaign has cried foul when Bill Ayers comes up, claiming "guilt by association." Yet the issue here isn't guilt by association; it's guilt by participation. As CAC chairman, Mr. Obama was lending moral and financial support to Mr. Ayers and his radical circle.
Guilt by participation! All in black and white documentation. No need to search for links or googling or wikisikipikidiki searches. Pure evidence. The best kind there is.
Thanks for wasting my time with more right wing attacks.
This "report" consists of innuendo, heavy interpretation and not one single quote from the documents he appears to base his "conclusions" on. This guy's mind was made up well in advance.
He states Obama worked with ACORN. So what? This is just guilt by association and is another tawdry right wing attack, trying to turn community service ("Country First," my ass), into a liability.
chicken: The topic relates to Obama's past associations.
McCain was associated with Keating and the one of the biggest economic scandals in our nation's history.
Do you even know anything about the Keating Five?
Note the story Althouse passes on highlighting to highlight this tripe.
John McCain's transition team manager is a lobbyist for Freddie Mac. The same Freddie Mac the Great Hypocrite McCain has been attacking.
Funny how Althouse ignores that to flog the Ayers issue. Don't look for substance here.
I wonder how the media would react to the news that McCain or Sarah Palin launched her career from the living room of Timothy McVeigh (as Obama launched his in Ayers home).
Probably very differently. Compare and contrast the two hosts:
Tim McVeigh: Mass murderer living at the margins of society
Bill Ayers: Nonmurderer, pillar of society.
Read what Mayor Daley had to say about Ayers in this Tribune article:
Family ties proved Ayers' point
By Ron Grossman Chicago Tribune
May 18, 2008
A funny thing happened to Bill Ayers in the years between his first headline-grabbing activities and his cameo role in the 2008 presidential campaign. He became a pillar of the very establishment he had once conspired to bring down.
When questions were first raised about Barack Obama's relationship with Ayers, including their serving together on the board of a charitable foundation, Chicago's elite rallied behind Ayers.
Mayor Richard Daley proclaimed Ayers, an educational consultant to the city, "a valued member of the Chicago community."
"I don't condone what he did 40 years ago, but I remember that period well," Daley said. "It was a difficult time, but those days are long over."
Yes, John McCain's corrupt role in the Keating Five is another issue An n Althouse will never touch.
Nor John McCain's ardent support for deregulating the financial industry and getting us into this mess.
"Mayor Richard Daley proclaimed Ayers, an educational consultant to the city, "a valued member of the Chicago community.""
Richard Daley?? Well, that does it for me; case closed.
""Obama dismissed Mr. Ayers as just 'a guy who lives in my neighborhood,' and 'not somebody who I exchange ideas with on a regular basis.'""
FROM on a regular basis not with.
Words matter, or so Obama claims.
Ayers: We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution.
Variable:
The media simply do not show the same skepticism and curiosity when it comes to Obaama.
And for me, this is the rub. If the press was as concerned with the "radicalism" of Obama as they are with Palin, than I would not be so upset by what has happened since Palin was announced.
Personally, I don't think Kurtz has found anything more than he has already previously reported. Whether this was due to the files being "cleaned," I guess we will never know. As it stands now, I don't think this story will amount to much.
AL
From Wikipedia...
and from Instapundit
Ayers claims never to have killed anyone, and in all that I have read about him, he has never been tied to any deaths.
Ayers was a leader of the Weather underground. The WU declared war on the US. Ayers was part of an ongoing conspiracy to commit murder and arson.
the WU killed a policeman in SF witha shrapnel bomb. The NYC explosion leveled half the block. The explosives being built were designed for an Army NCO club dance. Having been an Army NCO at he time, I take that personally. There intent was to kill.
In a bombing that took place on February 16, 1970, and that was credited to the Weathermen at the time,[26][27] a pipe bomb filled with heavy metal staples and lead bullet projectiles was set off on the ledge of a window at the Park Station of the San Francisco Police Department. In the blast, Brian V. McDonnell, a police sergeant, was fatally wounded while Robert Fogarty, another police officer, received severe wounds to his face and legs and was partially blinded.[28]
Weatherman leader Bernardine Dohrn has been suspected of involvement in the February 16, 1970, bombing of the Park Police Station in San Francisco. At the time, Dohrn was said to be living with a Weatherman cell in a houseboat in Sausalito, California, unnamed law enforcement sources later told KRON-TV.[29] An investigation into the case was reopened in 1999,[30] and a San Francisco grand jury looked into the incident, but no indictments followed,[29] and no one was ever arrested for the bombing.[30] An FBI informant, Larry Grathwohl, who successfully penetrated the organization from the late summer of 1969 until April 1970, later testified to a U.S. Senate subcommittee that Bill Ayers, then a high-ranking member of the organization and a member of its Central Committee (but not then Dohrn's husband), had said Dohrn constructed and planted the bomb. Grathwohl testified that Ayers had told him specifically where the bomb was placed (on a window ledge) and what kind of shrapnel was put in it. Grathwohl said Ayers was emphatic, leading Grathwohl to believe Ayers either was present at some point during the operation or had heard about it from someone who was there.[31] In a book about his experiences published in 1976, Grathwohl wrote that Ayers, who had recently attended a meeting of the group's Central Committee, said Dohrn had planned the operation, made the bomb and placed it herself.[32] In 2008, author David Freddoso commented that "Ayers and Dohrn escaped prosecution only because of government misconduct in collecting evidence against them".[31][33]
Republicans keep pushing these links to people they believe should be shunned. Ayers should be shunned, they say, because of things he said. That's the basis of this WSJ op-ed.
I think the hateful Ann Coulter should be shunned because she has called for bombing the New York Times, poisoning Supreme Court Justices and that Timothy McVeigh just chose the wrong targets.
But we have Republican candidates posing with her for pictures and they highlight her at their events.
No problem there, right? Hypocrites.
Old Bill Ayers angle: Obama is friends with a 60s-era radical terrorist.
New Bill Ayers angle: Obama and Ayers wasted tens of millions of dollars intended for poor schoolchildren on pathetic, unproven, politically-correct educational nostrums that yielded no worthwhile results.
That's why the Obama fans are clamoring for a return to the old angle. The old angle can be recast as "swiftboating." The new angle deeply undermines Obama's claim to be presidential material and is not swiftboating.
I anticipate the MSM's take on this story will be to try to drag it back to the first angle, conceding that "Kurtz's research shows that Obama understated his relationship with Ayers, a controversial figure with ties to 60s idealists and peace advocates."
They don't want to have to look more closely at the gross malfeasance of their management of this foundation, which didn't happen when Obama was eight years old. So Obama's critics will get that one little bone, and then the matter will be deemed as having been addressed even-handedly. Just watch.
variable says: "The media simply do not show the same skepticism and curiosity when it comes to Obaama."
Yeah, the media hasn't provided a single article or report relating to Obama's involvement in anything of any sort, especially anything relating to his personal life.
There have been absolutely NO reports relating to Rezko, Chicago politics, Daley, community organizers, accusing him of secretly being a Muslim, his wife hating America...not a single report. (Google "Obama scandals" and you only get a mere 2,600,000 hits)
But wait...what is it we're discussing right now?
Oh, that's right: a WSJ article titled: "Obama and Ayers
Pushed Radicalism
On Schools"
Do you even know anything about the Keating Five?
Evidently you are unaware McCain was cleared of any wrong doing.
I doubt the Dems wish to bring up Keating 5 considering McCain was the lone Rrepublican.
But please, do continue.
Michael said:
chicken: The topic relates to Obama's past associations.
McCain was associated with Keating and the one of the biggest economic scandals in our nation's history.
I'm sorry Michael, but an entire line of your comment text seems have been deleted- the one which connected your two statements. This thread is about the former.
The less charitable side of me says "please, please Republicans make your main line of attack on Obama "Bill Ayers, Saul Alinsky and Rev. Wright"! Given the seriousness of the problems that we face the American people would react with either puzzlement or horror that Republicans think this is what is important.
On a side note, I have turned in for short stints to listen to Rush Limbaugh over the last two days. It was quite funny to listen to him go all apoplectic and not know which way to turn. His man Bush just nationalized a good portion of the economy. If it was not so serious I could really enjoy Rush's ideological world caving in. On second thought, I am really enjoying it.
Gee, Mikey,
A total of a hundred fifty million dollars going to radicalize kids into becoming community organizers seems like a scandalous waste of money.
Drill sgt coughs up more Republican Talking Points:
Ayers was a leader of the Weather underground.
I don't think so. The quote you post, from whereever you don't bother to say, doesn't even describe him as a leader.
The only reason he is being described as a "Weather Underground Leader" is to help destroy Barack Obama in the Republican bid to cling to power.
This whole thing is a bunch of bullshit.
And the attacks against Saul Alinsky are shameful. This is a guy that taught people how to fight City Hall. How to organize themselves to make their neighborhoods better.
What the hell is wrong with that?
That Republicans think this is bad behavior paints them as abettors and supplicants to the powerful.
Again, the only reason you're dragging Saul Alinsky through the mud is to tear down Barack Obama.
Just some guy?
Think about this scenario :
You are a couple years out of school. You are just starting to establish a career. You have no real credentials or experience. You are chin deep in school debt.
"Some guy" calls you up and offers you a seat on the board of a foundation that is going to pour $100 million dollars into the local political machine. But wait it gets better... Not only are you appointed to this board but despite being the youngest, least experienced, and least influential member by orders of magnitude, you are voted to be the chairman. You are now the guy in charge of the project to pour $100 million dollars into the local politcal machine. Lucky break huh?
After 7 years of using this position to build up favors and clout, you use this base to launch your political career.
The same "guy" is on hand to help out by throwing your first real fundraiser at his house. ( did I mention that his dad got you your first real job out of law school?).
Now, when asked, how would you describe this guy who single handedly made all of this possible?
Barack says " he's just a guy who lives in my neighborhood".
Considering this "guy's" first job was making bombs, you would think that Obama might want to show just a little bit more gratitude then that wouldn't you?
I anticipate the MSM's take on this story will be to try to drag it back to the first angle,
NOTE: It is not a story. It is an opinion piece. It is more opinion than fact.
Facts and opinions are not the same thing!
AlphaLiberal said...
[...]
The only reason he is being described as a "Weather Underground Leader" is to help destroy Barack Obama in the Republican bid to cling to power.
This whole thing is a bunch of bullshit.
12:57 PM
"In June 1969, the Weatherman took control of the SDS at its national convention, where Ayers was elected "Education Secretary".
Since the RCP average shows Obama +2.7 and +30 on the Electoral College, why is Alpha so upset today?
drill: Ayers never killed anyone.
He took part in planting a bomb at a statue that broke windows and damaged the statue, and was involved in bombings at the NY City Police headquarters, U.S. Capitol building, and the Pentagon.
No one was killed or hurt.
erniecu73 thinks Bill Ayers is running for President.
Anybody want to tell him...?
Former law--
Ayers' former girlfriend was making a nail bomb that the Weather Underground planned to detonate at Fort Dix possibly to kill enlisted men. Repeat, not officers, just sergeants and privates.
Fort Dix is/was the Army's big induction center in New Jersey.
Wow, dude, what an act of revolutionary bravery, wanting to maim 18-year-old draftees or retired military people buying groceries at the post commissary. I would so much love to work for years and years reforming education with the genius behind such a noble operation.
In any event, the mere thought that a future United States Senator would spend years working hand-in-glove with a domestic terrorist who founded a group that exploded 20 bombs, including devices that went off in the Pentagon and Congress...it's stupefying.
More horrendous is the notion that the future Sen. Obama sat down in Ayers' home and broke bread with Ayers' wife, Katherine Dohrn, who shall forever be remembered for saying, "Dig it! Manson killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them, then they shoved a fork into a victim's stomach." If Sen. Obama were a minister, priest, or rabbi dining in the home of such a person would be a duty, but for an elected representative of the people to do so is beyond the pale.
Michael said...
erniecu73 thinks Bill Ayers is running for President.
Anybody want to tell him...?
1:07 PM
Can you back that up?
The only reason he is being described as a "Weather Underground Leader" is to help destroy Barack Obama in the Republican bid to cling to power.
Ayers has claimed his leadership role in interviews, books, articles, and other media.
Next you will be telling us that it is unfair to "smear" US Rep. Luis Guiterrez for being a member of the FALN or US Rep. Bobby Rush for being a member of the Black Panthers; you know, criminal terrorist community oganizations?
"Ayers never killed anyone."
It's not that he didn't try and then regret failing.
Does astro-turfing pay well??
It seems that this educational program was geared not to improving students' academic performance but to refining their revolutionary potential....If Obama accepted the muted Marxism of this program as valid goals for underperforming children, do you wonder what program he will choose to restrain unruly bankers?
The Weathermen tried to kill my family.
John M. Murtagh
"In February 1970, my father, a New York State Supreme Court justice, was presiding over the trial of the so-called “Panther 21,” members of the Black Panther Party indicted in a plot to bomb New York landmarks and department stores. Early on the morning of February 21, as my family slept, three gasoline-filled firebombs exploded at our home on the northern tip of Manhattan, two at the front door and the third tucked neatly under the gas tank of the family car. (Today, of course, we’d call that a car bomb.)
...Only a few weeks after the attack, the New York contingent of the Weathermen blew themselves up making more bombs in a Greenwich Village townhouse. The same cell had bombed my house ...And in late November that year, a letter to the Associated Press signed by Bernardine Dohrn, Ayers’s wife, promised more bombings."
But forget all that.
Ayers remained a self-professed "small c" communist and he and Obama misspent $150M.
Where did it go?
How can a guy like Obama, who associates with people who believe in the repeatedly proven worst economic system in the world, and pisses money away like that, and then lies about it, be trusted with the reigns on the economy?
LarsPorsena said..."It's not that he didn't try and then regret failing."
I've never read anything that would substantiate that comment.
Why not provide a link or quote where Ayers ever intimated or said anything of the kind?
I hope my above comment does not cause anyone to vote for Obama.
ACORN is the organization which several members were indicted across the country for vote fraud and other election irregularities; all felonies. It was founded by the leader of the SEIU, a very politically corrupt union.
Two significant errors in this statement, and I've corrected pvb on this before.
First, no ACORN members were indicted for voter fraud. Some few street canvassers hired by Acorn to register voters committed fraud by signing up the same voters multiple times, and have been indicted. Second, a decade after founding ACORN in the late 60s, Wade Rathke founded what became Local 100 of the SEIU. The actual SEIU was founded in 1921.
Note that resistance to voter fraud led Obama to his first elective office: Knowing that street signature gatherers are tempted to commit fraud, Obama had his opponents' nominating petitions checked when he first ran for the state Senate. Enough faked signatures were found to toss all of his opponents off the ballot.
But they didn't improve public schools. Their own records shows that test scores remained static.
surely the Chicago schools had a better use for 150 million than this. Now compare this to Obama's education plans and manditory public serice stuff. It's the same Ayers stuff writ large.
1. It is perhaps impossible to improve the Chicago Public Schools. But by God, when what they're doing hasn't worked for decades, you've got to try something. The CAC allowed them to try many different things.
2. CPS principals and teachers, like most bureaucrats, have arranged their jobs to maximize their own comfort, and resist all changes, which they feel directly threaten them. By giving them an extra $150 million all you do is reward failure.
3. Obama's public service plans are the same Bill Clinton stuff writ large, not Bill Ayers' stuff.
You can read a Heritage Foundation article slamming the similar Bill Clinton plan here:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Education/IB178.cfm
June 23, 1993
Six Reasons Why Bill Clinton's National Service Program Is a Bad Idea
by Tucker, Allyson M.
Issue Bulletin #178
Pogo, can you provide any evidence that ties Bill Ayers to the bombing described by the Judge...other than speculation on your part?
The only objective reporting I can find says this:
He took part in planting a bomb at a statue that broke windows and damaged the statue, and was involved in bombings at the NY City Police headquarters, U.S. Capitol building, and the Pentagon.
No one was killed or hurt.
You know what saves the lefty freaks defending this Obama/Ayers alliance, in the media and on this site? The fact that the overwhelming majority of Americans have never experienced the utterly cynical ruthless manipulation of communists up close and personal. Once you've been exposed to it, as Reagan was in the Screen Actors Guild, as I was in the SEIU when I went to sea in my misspent youth, you never forget what conscienceless cold-blooded killers the Ayers of this world are and you never let down your guard against them.
My attempt at a Palette cleanser: Photos of candidates when they were young.
John Edwards
Dennis Kucinich
Mitt Romney with wife Ann (she was a knock-out)
Mike Huckabee (LOL)
John McCain (is that the one Zach?)
Barack Obama
Cheers,
Victoria
william, Obama is a Marxist?
NOTE: It is not a story. It is an opinion piece. It is more opinion than fact.
Earth to alpha,
He got the information from documents. You know, real paper with writing on it? Good old fashioned evidence?
But, you can play with google and wikidikisikipikipedia to get your facts?
ricpic, Obama is a Communist?
The worst thing is that the GOP brand is so damaged right now that Obama can be caught with anything and he'll still win, even if not a landslide.
Yeah what's the big deal.
So he is responsible for a few bombs.
So is George Clooney and he is still working.
Okay, let ma make sure I've got this all straight:
Obama is a Weatherman, Marxist, Communist, Leftist, Chicago Political Machine Hack, Socialist, secret Muslim?
And the MSM has been hiding it.
I'm amazed Karleton Armstrong gets to hang around your campus. I'll bet it's a "gun-free zone" too.
Michael,
You seem certain that the media has given Obama a thorough vetting and not protected him in any way.
Please tell me, when did an article about Jeremiah Wright and the controversy regarding his connection with Barack Obama first appear in the New York Times?
I'm sure it was immediately after his sermons became public knowledge right? I'm sure it wasn't more than a month later was it? And I'm sure they launched an investigative piece right away, right? No? Oh well, at least they nailed that front-pager on McCain's supposed "mistress".
The argument that Obama has faced the kind of scrutiny deserving of a freshman senator with a scant record of public policy is just preposterous. As I said before, the news media treats the controversies as attacks, prints the campaign's response and moves on. That is not journalism, that's stenography.
Alex said..."The worst thing is that the GOP brand is so damaged right now that Obama can be caught with anything and he'll still win, even if not a landslide."
Well, at least you got that "GOP brand" thing right.
Michael said: He took part in planting a bomb at a statue that broke windows and damaged the statue, and was involved in bombings at the NY City Police headquarters, U.S. Capitol building, and the Pentagon.
No one was killed or hurt.
And he made an ill-timed statement published in the NYT.
People want to know whether Obama sympathizes with Ayers's cause. Obama can easily draw a brighter line between himself and Ayers, but there must be some calculus behind why he doesn't.
Variable, If you actually think there's something out there about Obama, that the MSM hasn't reported yet...as G.W. would say: BRING IT ON.
*And if that is the case...where does Fox News fit into your premise?
Are you saying Fox is along for the ride?
Michael said...
Okay, let ma make sure I've got this all straight:
Obama is a Weatherman, Marxist, Communist, Leftist, Chicago Political Machine Hack, Socialist, secret Muslim?
And the MSM has been hiding it.
1:22 PM
You know that is not exactly the issue, but let me spell it to you, to humor myself.
The media (it is a plural noun) have been ignoring these connections. Obama has not been forthcoming about them, and what has transpired trough other channels seems to indicate that Obama shared or even still does share some of the idealogical leanings and objectives, if not all of them, of these associates.
You can pass it through Babelfish into German now if you wish.
x said: I'm amazed Karleton Armstrong gets to hang around your campus. I'll bet it's a "gun-free zone" too.
Karelton Armstrong did his time. Leo Burt probably works for Bill Ayers.
Ayers association with Obama is extremely interesting. Ayers facilitated bombings, a couple of his mates murdered people or blew themselves up. He helped plan riots and a host of other exciting activities.
Nope, not a big deal. I'm sure Obama didn't know or care about any of that.
Sen O's relationship with Mr. Ayers is a legitimate subject that SHOULD be examined, and I am glad that it is finally seeing the light of day. Yes, the Keating Five thing should be out of there as well (frankly I am surprised it is not, but maybe this weekend there will be an entire NYT/WAPO retrospective to refresh us all).
Unlike the recent banal discussions about pigs, lipsticks, cars, et al, these two aforementioned issues speak to the character and judgement of the candidates, which should (and I believe are) important to voters.
So yes, when the country is facing a massive financial crisis, Senator McCain's Keating Five debacle is relevant. Likewise, a man who could very well become the next commander-in-chief amidst a war on terror should be questioned about his relationship with an unrepentant terrorist, one who plotted to bomb the pentagon (which was also, I might add, bombed by other terrorists at the start of the war on terror).
Both of these issues matter to me, and I suspect they matter to many other people, too; we'll find out just how much in a few weeks, I suppose. My uneducated guess is that both Senators would prefer to flush Keating/Ayers down the memory hole, and just count each other's cars, houses, lipsticks, and pigs, until they cross the finish line in November.
"Some guy" calls you up and offers you a seat on the board of a foundation that is going to pour $100 million dollars into the local political machine.
Actually, none of that money went into the local political machine -- that was what really pissed Daley off. Ken Rolling was quoted as saying Daley tried three times to pry the money away from the CAC.
Ayers' former girlfriend was making a nail bomb that the Weather Underground planned to detonate at Fort Dix possibly to kill enlisted men.
How was Ayers involved? I sure as hell would not like to be convicted based on what my former girlfriends did. I think the attempt to possibly kill enlisted men ended when his girlfriend blew herself up.
members of the Black Panther Party indicted in a plot to bomb New York landmarks and department stores.
Helloooo! Members of the Black Panther Party, Hellooo!
It's not that he didn't try and then regret failing.
Who did Ayers try, personally, to kill?
How can a guy like Obama, who associates with people who believe in the repeatedly proven worst economic system in the world, and pisses money away like that, and then lies about it, be trusted with the reigns on the economy?
I share your sense of outrage, but I believe that Obama's capitalist associates like Buffett and Rubin are fundamentally decent, even though Paulson and Bernanke are planning to blast through a trillion dollars of taxpayer money to bail out Wall Street.
Michael:
Unlike your side, we in the reality-based community can admit the facts on the ground.
As someone who is voting for Obama, should I care who this "Ayers" person is? I see his name on the internet along with the word "terrorist" every once and while, but other than that I have no idea who he is. Can someone give me a couple of quick facts (FACTS please) or a couple of sentences to summarize why I should care?
Obama is a born a bred lefty.
Daddy was a Marxist. Mommy was a racially self hating, America hating lefty.
Obama's mentors have always been lefties. From his Marxist black radical father figure in Hawaii to Edward Said at Columbia to Jeremiah Wright in Chicago to the guy with his forearm up his ass now David Axelrod.
But that's "old news inside the beltway new news outside."
The McCain camp needs to hit hard on this and act as if the public is unaware of all this.
Because for the most part they are.
McCain's Admiral father was tiny.
John McCain was maybe 5'7". He's even shorter now. Shrunken with age.
chicken says: "People want to know whether Obama sympathizes with Ayers's cause."
Which "cause?"
Obama was 8 years old when Ayers was protesting the Vietnam War.
Right now Bill Ayers is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
Once you've been exposed to it,as I was in the SEIU when I went to sea in my misspent youth
ricpic was a seagoing janitor?
"Obama is a Marxist?"
He is on the record saying that he'll raise the capital gains tax not to increase revenues to the govt., but instead out of a sense of fairness. I doubt he got such an idea from reading Adam Smith (or Ayn Rand).
jdeeripper, YES...the McCain camp has to hit hard on the "Marxist" angle.
Good Lord...
The Democratic presidential candidate worked recently with a man who belonged to an organization dedicated to the violent overthrow of the United States government, an action Ayers is proud of.
Left out of Ayer's calculus thet he 'did not do enough' is a record of what happened to the revolution happening in the third world they longed for.
North Vietnamese tanks rolled into Saigon, and 3 million soon died. The murderous violence of those revolutions, which the Weathermen wanted to foment her, are left unexamined.
And Ayers still works for communism, with a small c, whatever that means. Should the President be working for communists and communist goals?
Alex said..."Unlike your side, we in the reality-based community can admit the facts on the ground."
Do you admit George W. Bush has been an unmitigated disaster for America?
Michael said...
chicken says: "People want to know whether Obama sympathizes with Ayers's cause."
Which "cause?"
Obama was 8 years old when Ayers was protesting the Vietnam War.
Right now Bill Ayers is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago.
1:36 PM
Let me again do this for you since you seem incapable of doing it...
"ricpic was a seagoing janitor?"
pearldiver
OT: Why did John S. McCain III (by the way...his son calls himself John McCain IV to hearken back to an old comment section dialogue).
Why does John S. McCain III use the Slogan "Country First?" Was "America First" already taken?...
He could call himself a "Country Firster"
John McCain was maybe 5'7". He's even shorter now. Shrunken with age.
It's curious you mention this, Jdeeripper. I have a blogpost about this roundabout topic right now.
How Tall Is Palin
I did mention he was 5'7. But I put her at 5'5 without heels.
Cheers,
Victoria
Michael--
I beseech you—do not follow leaders. Watch the Federal Reserve Board.
As for myself, I do not require a meteorologist to know from which direction the red bull is flying.
Michael said...jdeeripper, YES...the McCain camp has to hit hard on the "Marxist" angle.
Good Lord...
Not Marxist but anti American left wing radical Chicago con artist.
Play up not the angle but the truth.
Obama's LIFELONG associations with people on the left radical fringe are important.
He has no record of accomplishments to go by. So his choice of mentors and associates matter when evaluating him as a possible President.
"Who did Ayers try, personally, to kill?"
Godwin forgive me, but who did Hitler personally kill?
"Right now Bill Ayers is a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago."
Would you have a problem with Eric Rudolph occupying a similar position?
I'm still stuck on the awesome lie Alpha Liberal posted, claiming Ayers wasn't a leader of the Weather Underground.
Ayers was one of the 11 signers of the manifesto creating the Weathermen. His wife, Bernadine Dohrn was another.
Did Ayers try to kill anybody? You'd have to know his mind to know that. But he clearly advocated the destruction by bombing of property in public places where people gathered. He claims to have been careful not to hurt anyone, but as his own dead comrades might have recognized in Greenwich Village in 1970 if their brains hadn't been splattered, when you're messing with bombs, shit happens. So while it might be fair to say Ayers isn't a murderer, it's also fair to say that it is purely a matter of luck that he didn't accidentally kill a lot of people.
But forget all that. Obama's mere involvement with Ayers has survived the vetting process. America doesn't care that Obama found Ayers to be worthy of his friendship and patronage. However, I do think it we have the right to expect a mainstream organizations to investigate the issues Kurtz has raised, i.e. how well or poorly did Obama and Ayers working together manage $150 million? It is Obama's one and only executive job where he had more than just an office budget to spend. How'd it work out? For any other candidate, it would be a natural avenue of exploration. Like, say, if Obama was a former small-town mayor. There might be some public interest in how he ran that place. If the NY Times wants to prove McCain a liar, they should unleash five reporters to go through the Annenberg foundation files and find out what happened.
"Variable, If you actually think there's something out there about Obama, that the MSM hasn't reported yet...as G.W. would say: BRING IT ON."
What a silly comment. I'm not a journalist and I don't work for any media organization.
The argument is that the press are not doing their job. I'll concede that I'm not doing theirs.
Can someone give me a couple of quick facts (FACTS please) or a couple of sentences to summarize why I should care?
Yes, but if you want to be spoon fed, you should probably visit a different blog.
Joe Biden just said that when the stock market crashed FDR went on television to calm the nation and explain what we had to do.
Thank God he was fully vetted.
Crimso- Wherever Obama gets his "ideas," based on this following data, it appears he may be on the right track:
With twenty years of the ups and downs of the U.S. business cycle, there is a significant advantage when a Democrat occupied the White House in each of five categories.
% Per Annum - GDP Growth:
Democrat 4.1%
Republican 2.9%
% Per Annum - Employment Democrat 2.9%
Republican 1.7%
% Per Annum - CPI
Democrat 4.0%
Republican 5.1%
% Per Annum - DJIA
Democrat 8.1%
Republican 6.5%
% Per Annum - Dollar
Democrat +0.8%
Republican -3.6%
John Brown killed people too...but he was still a American patriot.
Michael said...
[...]
Do you admit George W. Bush has been an unmitigated disaster for America?
1:39 PM
This sounds to me just like "Do you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?"
I resent when people try to impose their religion on me, michael. Don't you?
Zach, do you have Netflix? Queue this film or rent it at your local video store.
The Weather Underground
I saw this many years ago. I was horrified at what they stood for. They reminded me of the anarchist groups in Europe in the 1970s, like the Baader-Meinhof gang in Germany, or the Brigate Rosse in Italy. It was armed terrorism using whatever "means necessary" to bring down the system.
After I saw the documentary, I put them out of my mind. I knew they lived still, and some had been rewarded instead of punished for their misdeeds. What can you do, one moves on.
Then when it was revealed that Barack Obama (a man I had been following with interest ever since I had read his autobiography in 2002) had launched his political career at the home of Bill Ayers, the main Weatherman, I was literally stunned into silence.
This is the man who said:
That same year, ironically in comments published on September 11, 2001, Ayers had this to say about his bombing past, "I don't regret setting bombs, I feel we didn't do enough."
This is not the man you know. This is the kind of man you run away from.
The Bill Ayers-Bernadette Dohrn connexion is as troubling as the Rev. Wright one. Take all three, and it would've imploded any other candidate's chances by now.
The corollary would be if Palin had a Grand Wizard KKK pastor, served on some board alongside Eric Rudolph and had launched her political career from his home or from Timothy McVeigh's.
Cheers,
Victoria
Besides, Ayers is a white radical and that can only help Obama distance himself from the black ones.
Here is Sarah in high school.
She has a large face. Strong bone structure. Which might add to the illusion that she is a taller woman.
I don't think Obama is 6'3".
I'd guess 6'1 1/2""
hitler
/thread
And for me, this is the rub. If the press was as concerned with the "radicalism" of Obama as they are with Palin, than I would not be so upset by what has happened since Palin was announced.
Obama's opponents have tried to make an issue of his association with Ayers since before he was asked about it at the Democratic candidate debate, April 16, 2008. Absent more meat, this is a non-story.
I'm sure all the Palin scandals will have died down in five months' time, as well.
AlphaLiberal said...
Drill sgt coughs up more Republican Talking Points:
Ayers was a leader of the Weather underground.
I don't think so. The quote you post, from whereever you don't bother to say, doesn't even describe him as a leader.
You must be a product of an Ayers reading program. (the material was from wiki, not the best source, but hardly the GOP), however your reading comprehension is very weak:
later testified to a U.S. Senate subcommittee that Bill Ayers, then a high-ranking member of the organization and a member of its Central Committee
I'd guess 6'1 1/2""
No way. My dad is 6'4", confirmed (via military records, and they are very strict).
Obama passed a few feet away from me on Friday, and he's definitely taller than 6'1 1/2. I would stake my bras and panties on it.
John Brown killed people too...but he was still a American patriot.
A lot of Confederates thought they were too.
Both of them went about trying to achieve their ends using the wrong method. So did Ayres.
Once you stop protesting against perceived injustices and start shooting and blowing things up to make your point, you're a criminal at best or a traitor at worst.
If that simple distinction is lost on you then we must agree to disagree.
Absent more meat, this is a non-story.
I'm sure that's how you'd like it to be. But given Obama's incredible dissembling on his associations with Ayers, I think he knows it has the potential to be more than just a non-story. His response to challenges on BAIPA indicate the same. Such issues are stories because Obama is so clearly desparate for them not to be.
I would stake my bras and panties on it.
I thought you went commando?
I'm waiting for McCain camp to "blow the lid" on Obama's pastor...I mean, if it ever got out that would sink the Messiah's campaign!
Old news is old.
vbspurs said...
No way. My dad is 6'4", confirmed (via military records, and they are very strict).
Obama passed a few feet away from me on Friday, and he's definitely taller than 6'1 1/2. I would stake my bras and panties on it.
2:08 PM
You are on, lady.
Sorry for the threadjack! One last photo about the heights:
Barry next to Bill
Bill is a very tall man. Taller than GHW Bush, and he's tall.
Bill is listed as being 6 ft 2½ /1.89 m. And from a visual level at least, Obama looks taller than even that.
Cheers,
Victoria
"Absent more meat, this is a non-story."
And who will dig into that story to see if there is more meat to it? No one? ding, ding, ding We have a winner!
That statement is precisely the kind of credulity that the media as a whole demonstrates on every one of these Obama stories.
As someone who is voting for Obama, should I care who this "Ayers" person is?
I guess it depends on if you believe people can be defined by who they associate with. If you think that constructing bombs and blowing up government buildings is an appropriate way to protest then I suppose you probably don't care who Ayers is.
On the other hand, if I found out John McCain was buddies with David Duke or with an unrepentant former camp guard from Buchenwald, I'd probably switch my vote but that's just me.
Mom likes me better. She thinks I'm the smart one in the family. No wonder you are so angry!
What's that radical Jefferson quote about the tree of liberty? While the US government used american men as cannon fodder?
50k young men sold into slavery then fed into a meat grinder for Franco-Imperialism.
"Old news is old."
That is, if it's about a Democrat.
By that measure, Rengel's financial scandal is already stale, what being a day old and such.
But that Keating 5 issue?
That's GOP, so page one it.
Obama's LIFELONG associations with people on the left radical fringe are important.
Republicans and libertarians have to accept their share of responsibility for this. Obama associates himself with educators; in fact two of his biggest supporters are employees of Harvard and the University of California. Republicans notoriously start their own businesses, or work for private industry, rather than work for government or non-profit organizations.
In fact, the very term "non-profit" should make a good Republican's skin crawl.
The Republicans also fell down historically when it came to civil rights for black people. After a promising start during the Civil War and Reconstruction, their push for equality between the races failed. The first US political party to treat blacks and whites as equal was the Communist Party; "transmission belt" groups they formed attracted many black people.
If people who believe in education and in civil rights belong to the Left, supporting these things will expose you to a lot of Leftists.
THIS sounds like a job for . . .
Nonsense Rhyme Cheerleader Man!!!
(a copyrighted feature of this broadcast):
Ping pong, sing song, pocket full of rye,
False hope, tow rope, grit your teeth and try.
Gooooooooooooo TEAM!
John Stodder wrote:
"Obama's mere involvement with Ayers has survived the vetting process. America doesn't care that Obama found Ayers to be worthy of his friendship and patronage".
I disagree with you somewhat, John. The association with Ayers isn't a dealbreaker, otherwise Sen Obama never would have survived the primaries. But I'll wager that the cumulative associations of Rev Wright, Ayers, etc., certainly have not helped his candidacy; any time spent discussing either of these gentlemen is certainly time off message.
It actually is working to Obama's benefit that Ayers actually was a terrorist.
If Ayers history was exactly the same, excepting for the terrorism part, then the focus would be on "why was Obama consorting and working with a radical leftist?" Is it because he is one, too?
The mind can make that jump.
But because Ayers is a terrorist, the mind tests the query "why was Obama consorting and working with a terrorist? Is it because he is one, too?" and the mind immediately rejects that jump.
As it should.
But the first jump can be made. That Obama and Ayers have worked together as much as they did, and because Ayers kicked off Obama's political career, and because Obama has pretty much lied about how involved they were together, and because Obama and his supporters tried very hard to keep people from looking into this, it is very reasonable to wonder if Obama is merely liberal, or is he on the radical fring of leftism?
His friends and allies often seem to be there, be it Ayers or Rev. Wright.
But instead, people just dismiss the idea because it is obvious that Obama isn't and never was a terrorist. The idea "he's not like that" gets processed, where if Ayers was merely a radical, the idea "he is like that" would take root.
Lucky for Obama, I guess.
vbspurs-
via military records, and they are very strict)
Dude-they have me at 5'4'' to 5'9''-
Sooo.....I'm just sayin'
"In fact, the very term "non-profit" should make a good Republican's skin crawl."
What should make any Democrat's skin crawl is that Obama has substantially out-raised McCain on Wall Street. Follow the Goldman-Sachs
JP Morgan money trail.
But given Obama's incredible dissembling on his associations with Ayers, I think he knows it has the potential to be more than just a non-story.
Dude, untangle your syntax. I knew Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin was a friend of mine, and you, my friend, are no Sarah Palin.
If there was any fuel behind the fire behind the smoke, smear merchant Kurtz would have found it. The right wing has been working on this night and day, with might and main, since March.
If the Ayers-Obama connection bothers you, because when Obama was in grammar school an education prof he would meet decades in the future was associated with a group that planted bombs to protest the Vietnam War, why aren't you even more exercised about McCain's current association with a man who lied to Congress six years ago to get us into a war that has already cost over 4000 American lives? Why do you look at that as a huge non-story?
UWS guy said...
hitler
/thread
Godwin's Law.
madawaskan said...vbspurs-
via military records, and they are very strict)
Dude-they have me at 5'4'' to 5'9''
vbspurs = Dudette
You know FLS is getting all flustered when he goes full ad hominem on Republicans.
If there was any fuel behind the fire behind the smoke, smear merchant Kurtz would have found it. The right wing has been working on this night and day, with might and main, since March.
First of all, he did find fire: Obama's relationship with Ayers was significantly more involved than Obama has claimed.
And secondly, I'm sure Kurtz would have loved to have had all those months since March to have pored over the records, but somehow he was conveniently prevented from doing so until a shor time ago.
Obama wants this to go away, and he's counting on the help of his friends in the MSM to ignore the obvious lack of candor he has brought to the issue.
I just love when "The Wonderful Bissage" gives us a little cheer.
It makes my day complete.
"Associations" or how much "influence" one has over another is a difficult thing to prove. Obama can distance himself from this Ayers person as far as possible, and some will call him a liar, but can you really be certain?
It depends on whether or not you choose to believe Obama.
Hanging out with someone doesn't necessarily mean that you subscribe to their beliefs or are as "bad" as them. Remember McCain going to Falwell's "university"?
L. E. Lee said...
Ain't gonna work this time fellas. This election is about how the U.S. has gotten itself into one of the worst economic AND foreign policy position since the WWII/Great Depression era. So, you all can try the ol' Willy Horton/flag burning/swift boating side shows but the American people clearly are not buying it this time around.
Yeah, right.
Everytime Black Messiah gets caught lying, or gets pummled on an issue by the likes of Hillary - he had a predictable response:
Rev Wright/56 "present votes"/bitter whiteys clinging to God and guns/Rezko?
All were pronounced (trademarked?) as DISTRACTIONS FROM THE REAL ISSUES.
Seconded by media and Obamabots.
Verily, the Annointed One has said they are distractions. And said so in soaring oratory that proved they were distractions - so now it is time to MOVE ON to the real issues.
Like the Surge failing in Iraq and the need to run.
Now?
The Surge is (ahem) now a "distraction". Since it worked..
Ayers and him being a neighborhood acquaintance Obama barely knew and not someone he regularly exchanged ideas with?
You got it. Another "distraction"!
I like UWS Guy's approach here:
John Brown killed people too...but he was still a American patriot.
...
What's that radical Jefferson quote about the tree of liberty? While the US government used american men as cannon fodder?
50k young men sold into slavery then fed into a meat grinder for Franco-Imperialism.
It says, "Yeah, Ayers is responsible for the deaths of others, but so what? It was totally justified!"
That's way better than the weak tea of "Who did Ayers try, personally, to kill?" That sounds like Sideshow Bob arguing his way out of prison.
Attempted murder, now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?
Ya for some reason I don't do dudette.
former law student said...
"why aren't you even more exercised about McCain's current association with a man who lied to Congress six years ago to get us into a war that has already cost over 4000 American lives? Why do you look at that as a huge non-story?"
It is and will remain a non-story unless or until as much as a shred of evidence emerges proving that Bush (1) lied to Congress (2) with intent to to have them declare war.
"a group that planted bombs to protest the Vietnam War"
Yeah, jes' forget little "overthrow the US government" thingy. Y'all nemmind that.
AlphaLiberal said, without a hint of irony, Thanks for wasting my time with more right wing attacks.
Karma's a bitch.
UWS guy said, Why does John S. McCain III use the Slogan "Country First?" Was "America First" already taken?
Maybe because America can be considered to include Canada and Mexico, among others, and he figured he'd be attacked for not recognizing that.
as to whether Ayers killed anyone, I have only this to say:
"Felony Murder Statutes"
I remember when The Wonderful World of Bissage was on NBC on Sunday nights. They even had my favorite movie "Follow Me Goys" which stared Fred MacMurray, a young Kurt Russell and Totie Fields as the woman who came between them.
Remember it's all about the self-constructed narratives.
John McCain: "I'm a Maverick."
Media: "Why do you vote with your party all the time?"
Sarah Palin: "I'm a reformer."
Media: "Why didn't you get rid of all the earmarks in the budget?"
Barack Obama: "I'm a agent of change that can heal this country's wounds and not at all a radical leftist."
Media: "Yup, that sounds about right. Oh and don't forget to mention what a really great guy you are! {smooches} :-*"
We only have Ayer's word he didn't 'personally' kill anyone (except mebbe the 3 colleagues what blowed theyselves up).
He was never tried.
Given the atmosphere at the time, murder and terrorism quite the concern we give it today.
Former law--
Oh, goodness.
The story's gone nowhere because the records are locked up, and Ayers and Sen. Obama are not talking.
Ayers was not merely "associated" with Weather Underground. He founded it! That's like saying John Lennon was associated with The Beatles.
Sen. Obama's relationship with Ayers was not "decades" earlier. He and his wife lived underground until 1980...in hiding from law enforcement on bodacious felony charges.
And Weather Underground was not merely protesting the Vietnam War. It wanted to foment violent Communist revolution in the United States.
Why would any US Senator knowingly spend more than 30 seconds in the company of such a creature?
Hanging out with someone doesn't necessarily mean that you subscribe to their beliefs or are as "bad" as them.
Of course not. Sounds like you haven't bothered to read Kurtz's articles, though. We're not talking about just "hanging out."
And you really don't have to believe any of Kurtz's subjective analysis, either. For instance, the Obama campaign "notes that Mr. Ayers attended only six board meetings."
I thought he was just a guy who lives in his neighborhood? Hell, I live about 5 houses down from a former Bush administration official. He's just a guy in my neighborhood. But if he attended six board meetings of an organization which he helped create, and in which I was chairman, he will become a little more than "just a neighbor." If I decided to enter politics and held one of my first fundraisers at his house, he will become a little more than "just a neighbor."
If I tried to claim otherwise, you lefties would have a shit fit. And you'd be justified.
Hanging out with someone doesn't necessarily mean that you subscribe to their beliefs or are as "bad" as them.
Well there is the old saying of birds of a feather...
Generally people gravitate to those who share the same interests. Again, there are people who have no problem with Ayres or even what he did when Obama was eight. I am not one of them. I think he was a terrorist then and unrepentant now. His view of America is not mine or even one I would want to contemplate. That in and of itself is enough to turn me off of Obama. Then there is just the simple fact that Obama is a full blown leftist which I don't subscribe to at all.
Here is Wiki's report on the fatal bombing and murder that Ayers and Dohrn should have gone to prison for:
In a bombing that took place on February 16, 1970, and that was credited to the Weathermen at the time,[26][27] a pipe bomb filled with heavy metal staples and lead bullet projectiles was set off on the ledge of a window at the Park Station of the San Francisco Police Department. In the blast, Brian V. McDonnell, a police sergeant, was fatally wounded while Robert Fogarty, another police officer, received severe wounds to his face and legs and was partially blinded.[28]
Weatherman leader Bernardine Dohrn has been suspected of involvement in the February 16, 1970, bombing of the Park Police Station in San Francisco. At the time, Dohrn was said to be living with a Weatherman cell in a houseboat in Sausalito, California, unnamed law enforcement sources later told KRON-TV.[29] An investigation into the case was reopened in 1999,[30] and a San Francisco grand jury looked into the incident, but no indictments followed,[29] and no one was ever arrested for the bombing.[30] An FBI informant, Larry Grathwohl, who successfully penetrated the organization from the late summer of 1969 until April 1970, later testified to a U.S. Senate subcommittee that Bill Ayers, then a high-ranking member of the organization and a member of its Central Committee (but not then Dohrn's husband), had said Dohrn constructed and planted the bomb. Grathwohl testified that Ayers had told him specifically where the bomb was placed (on a window ledge) and what kind of shrapnel was put in it. Grathwohl said Ayers was emphatic, leading Grathwohl to believe Ayers either was present at some point during the operation or had heard about it from someone who was there.[31] In a book about his experiences published in 1976, Grathwohl wrote that Ayers, who had recently attended a meeting of the group's Central Committee, said Dohrn had planned the operation, made the bomb and placed it herself.[32] In 2008, author David Freddoso commented that "Ayers and Dohrn escaped prosecution only because of government misconduct in collecting evidence against them".[31][33]
What's that? Ayers planted a bomb filled with staples and hunks of lead!
Yes, I'd love to go to work with him helping kindergardeners!
Obama's experience with the CAC is his ONLY executive experience. It deserves to be fully investigated and vetted. To say otherwise, is pure political posturing.
Ayers planted a bomb filled with staples and hunks of lead!
Now be fair, concerned citizen! That text suggests that Dohrn did it, not Ayers. You know, the woman he married, had kids with, and went into hiding with. You know, just a woman in his neighborhood.
Kind of a bizarre thread. The Obama supporters are just not dealing with the subject.
1) Obama lied outright about his relationship with Ayers. He knew him well, and worked with him closely. He obviously doesn't agree with the posters here that this is not a big deal; otherwise, why would he lie?
2) His only executive position involved working with tens of millions of dollars of taxpayer money, ostensibly to improve schools. He did not in any way try to improve schools. Instead, he took the money and co-opted it to try to push radical progressive views on students.
3) We should be able to learn from this what he really does when he has power. Not what he says he will do, what he actually did.
Disgusting. These facts should cause any person with a conscience to refuse to support him for president. Unless they feel that teaching kids progressive dogma is worth any deception.
If you agree with that statement, but doubt that these are facts, definitely demand the data. But don't just claim that you're off the hook because Kurtz didn't provide footnotes. Presumably he will soon.
Awhile back I met the former Bush adminstration official at a neighborhood party. Neither I nor he (or our spouses) planned the party, though we did contribute to the food (it was a potluck). Do I still get to call him "just a guy in my neighborhood?"
Honestly I'm having trouble holding interest in this debate though. The Google phone came out today! And even though I'm a solid Mac fanboy it is a fun development nonetheless.
The Axelrod-AstroTurfers here claim that the Obama-Ayers connection has been vetted and survived, to which all people with functioning brain cells say: when?
Can anyone point me to the front page article in the NY Times where they actually investigated the depth and length of their association? LA Times? Washington Post? ABC? NBC? CBS?
Point me to the article covering Obama's basic dishonesty in claiming that Ayers was just "some guy in his neighborhood." NYT? LAT? WaPo? ABC? NBC? CBS?
::listens to the crickets chirping while the AstroTurfers frantically e-mail the Obama campaign for their next set of talking points::
This is part and parcel of the Obama campaign: claim that no matter what, it's already been talked about and people have decided that it's "not important."
Why? Because it doesn't help Michelle Obama's children, that's why...
FLS said: If the Ayers-Obama connection bothers you, because when Obama was in grammar school an education prof he would meet decades in the future was associated with a group that planted bombs to protest the Vietnam War...
Don't pretend that Obama's tender age at the time matters here. I'm his age, and by the time I got to college, there were plenty of ways to show support for the "cause".
mcg -
Don't forget that Dohrn (who Obama is also friends with) celebrated the Manson family writing "PIG" on the walls in their victims' blood and stuck a fork in the stomach of one of their victims.
Yeah, these are just a couple of people who happened to disagree with the government on policy...not sick, twisted bastards at all...Nothing to see here...Move along...
Yeah Bissage, I bet you have already filed the paperwork to formally change your name to "The Wonderful Bissage"?
You are in rare company buddy with The Babe, The Bronx, The Duke of Earl and now The Wonderful Bissage.
as to whether Ayers killed anyone, I have only this to say:
"Felony Murder Statutes"
Fine. Who died in the furtherance of which felony that Ayers committed?
"overthrow the US government"
And when did Ayers vow to overthrow the US government?
thanks for the tip, simon:
The Ayers story is and will remain a non-story unless or until as much as a shred of evidence emerges proving that Ayers (1) continued to be a terrorist (2) while Obama knew him.
You know FLS is getting all flustered when he goes full ad hominem on Republicans.
I welcome being proved wrong. Point me to a good reference for the Republican fight for civil rights for blacks pre-1964, or really at any time in the 20th Century.
Ayers, Wright, et al, goes directly to Obama's poor judgment. He has clearly made amazingly poor choices of associates and mentors and that speaks volumes about him and the types and quality of people he would have around him as President.
Ayers publicly admitted he was "guilty as sin" of the charges brought against him. He is a hard leftist who hates America as he showed us clearly when he looked down on us in that photograph of him standing on our flag. Guilty as sin? Absolutely.
For a flavor of Obama's close associate's thinking, in his own words, here is the end of Ayers speech in Nov. 2006 to the "World Educational Forum":
"we, too, must build a project of radical imagination and fundamental change. Venezuela is poised to offer the world a new model of education– a humanizing and revolutionary model whose twin missions are enlightenment and liberation. This World Education Forum provides us a unique opportunity to develop and share the lessons and challenges of this profound educational project that is the Bolivarian Revolution.
Viva Mission Sucre!
Viva Presidente Chavez!
Viva La Revolucion Bolivariana!
Hasta La Victoria Siempre!"
Ayers really likes Chavez a lot and can't wait for "victory". And, what "victory" would that be?
Ask Obama, I'm sure he knows.
Blogger former law student said...
Ayers deserves to die for the murders he committed.
Ayers claims never to have killed anyone, and in all that I have read about him, he has never been tied to any deaths. His girlfriend blew herself up, apparently while making a bomb.
12:37 PM
Emphasis added, along with the hope that 'Former Law Student' flunked out of law school for lack of basic logical reasoning ability.
Stodder, I don't think we have the same definition of "leader." You claim Ayers signed a statement with 10 other people creating the Weather Underground.
Signing a statement does not make someone a leader. It makes them a signatory.
Ayers was a spoiled rich kid who liked to shoot off his mouth. Many of his contemporaries thought so. He's sad.
And now the right wing needs to inflate Ayers' importance and distort his words to better smear Barack Obama. None of this affects anybody's life today or tomorrow and has no affect on the election.
Meanwhile John McCain would have his government set up by a guy who used to lobby for Freddie Mac. The very lobbyists he accuses of distorting our democracy. No problem for Republicans!
This whole story is the Republican version of "What's that? look over there!"
"Point me to a good reference for the Republican fight for civil rights for blacks pre-1964"
But FLS, that is all in the past!
We can't use the past in discussing things today, because that's in the past and not today which is now.
It seems that one can't be critical of a politician without someone saying, "but what about your guy?"
McCain isn't my guy. I've never been too fond of him.
Keating 5? Come on, that was decades ago. If there were anything to it –and it was thoroughly investigated and people imprisoned – then why wasn't McCain charged with anything? Much ado about nothing. But even if he is guilty of anything, it doesn't ameliorate the guilt of Obama.
The main thing is that it doesn't matter about how good or bad McCain is. Obama consorts with communist terrorists. That's bad enough and no comparisons need be made to anyone else to condemn him for that.
you claim Ayers signed a statement with 10 other people creating the Weather Underground.
Signing a statement does not make someone a leader.
Alpha usually gives me the best laugh of the day and he did not fail with his above post.
Has anyone here ever found a satisfactory resolution to an argument with a complete and total partisan?
I can't recall ever having such an experience myself. And I can't recall ever stumbling across someone else having such an experience, in all of my time reading blogs and forums.
Yet people keep doing it, which leads me to believe that there must be some perceived benefit that I am just missing.
Can someone explain?
One thing I love about AlphaLiberal is that the links he posts, thinking he's supporting his point, often tend to prove his opponents' case.
Jim:
Can anyone point me to the front page article in the NY Times where they actually investigated the depth and length of their association? LA Times? Washington Post? ABC? NBC? CBS?
I'm not even looking and the story has not even been written because it's trivial.
The country is teetering on the brink of economic ruin, we have two wars going, massive deficits, rampant corruption, severe environmental problems.
But you guys think the most pressing issue in this election is whether Obama sat on a board of a group where Ayers was on a subcommittee.
Meanwhile the head John "Keating Five" McCain's transition team is a well-heeled lobbyist for a finance company.
You really need a whole new sense of proportion.
Sorry Bissage I forgot to include Da Bears!
jim--
Here's another great moment in the NYT's coverage of Obama...Its February 2008 report on his drug use. Three people are quoted—one is his loyal half-sister, the second a former classmate friend who's now an Obama fundraiser, and the third is a convicted drug-felon who did not know him during the period when Obama says he was using drugs the most. The article says more than 36 people were interviewed. And none were at Columbia, only in Hawaii and at Occidental College in LA.
What a joke.
And Former Law Student--
Ayers has never even acknowledged that he ever was a terrorist. He says the US government is the terrorist— "The reason we weren't terrorists is because we did not commit random acts of terror against people," he told the Chicago Tribune in 2001. He also told the NY Times he does not regret personally setting bombs. I guess that dead cop in San Francisco doesn't count cuz, like, he was a pig. Good thing nobody was that ladies bathroom at the Pentagon.
The bathroom bomber. Even al-Qaeda has more dignity than to try to kill women in toilets.
I'm not even looking and the story has not even been written because it's trivial.
Obama doesn't think it's trivial.
The story's gone nowhere because the records are locked up, and Ayers and Sen. Obama are not talking.
Did you not read the wsj oped Ann linked to?
Sen. Obama's relationship with Ayers was not "decades" earlier. He and his wife lived underground until 1980...in hiding from law enforcement on bodacious felony charges.
Bombing stopped in 1974, when Obama was in 7th or 8th Grade. the WU disbanded in 1976. Obama met Ayers in 1995, two decades later.
Why would any US Senator knowingly spend more than 30 seconds in the company of such a creature?
Because when they met, Ayers was no longer a bomb-throwing anarchist, but Distinguished Professor of Education, and Senior University Scholar at the University of Illinois at Chicago
I liked pogo's suggestion that Ayers' only path to exoneration would have been for Ayers to have been tried for crimes that pogo couldn't specify.
"Point me to a good reference for the Republican fight for civil rights for blacks pre-1964"
"The Emancipation Proclamation", A Lincoln (R) ring a bell?
do I need to find a link?
My favorite Louis Armstrong song is "What a Wonderful, Wonderful Bissage."
I remember when he sang that as a duet with Ella Fitzgerald on a Dean Martin Christmas special. It still brings tears to my eyes.
The Drill SGT said...
"Point me to a good reference for the Republican fight for civil rights for blacks pre-1964"
"The Emancipation Proclamation", A Lincoln (R) ring a bell?
do I need to find a link?
3:33 PM
Game, set and match!
This is freakin' hilarious:
"Point me to a good reference for the Republican fight for civil rights for blacks pre-1964"
"The Emancipation Proclamation", A Lincohn (R) ring a bell?
Republicans need to go back 150 years to find something they did to advance racial equality!!
Bombing stopped in 1974, when Obama was in 7th or 8th Grade. the WU disbanded in 1976. Obama met Ayers in 1995, two decades later.
You might have a point if somewhere between 1976 and 1995 he had actually paid the penalty for his self-admitted crimes, or for that matter actually repented of them.
Hanging out with someone doesn't necessarily mean that you subscribe to their beliefs or are as "bad" as them.
(Third time's the charm?)
Obama wasn't just hanging out with Ayers on the CAC board. He was funding Ayers' activist groups, and those of similar-minded philosophies: radicalism, anti-capitalism, "social awareness." In schools, targeting students of all ages, and their parents. Programs targeting math and science enrichment were denied funding.
From what I've read, it looks as though Ayers put Obama in to rubberstamp his and his friends' proposals, and to write the checks. $150 million is a lot to spend with literally nothing to show for it.
This is Obama's ONLY executive experience -- why can't we talk about it? Leave Ayers out of the discussion altogether if need be -- how did Obama decide where to spend that money, and what did he learn from all those miserable failures?
Republicans need to go back 150 years to find something they did to advance racial equality!!
Uh, no. Republicans passed the Civil Rights act in greater numbers than Democrats.
Welfare reform is a much more recent example. Of course, you lefties think it was some sort of tragedy but sensible Democrats like Daniel Patrick Moynihan agreed.
And Ward Connerly has done more to advance actual racial equality than any pro-affirmative-action lefty today.
As Peter Kirsanow
says,
"Stanley's work is a challenge to mainstream journalists. A candidate for the presidency has a demonstrated working relationship with — indeed funded — an unrepentant terrorist, yet the media have spent more time reporting about Sarah Palin's hair styles."
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