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"Obama dismissed Mr. Ayers as just 'a guy who lives in my neighborhood,' and 'not somebody who I exchange ideas with on a regular basis.'"
Stanley Kurtz has the story: "Obama and Ayers Pushed Radicalism On Schools."
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«सर्वात जुने ‹थोडे जुने 295 पैकी 201 – 295Stanley Kurtz, on wingnut welfare, at the Hudson Institute.
He's been trying to fluff up the stories on Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers. He needs justify his existence and be an attack dog to justify his existence.
His specialty in life appears to be guilt by association. What a sad fuck.
I liked pogo's suggestion that Ayers' only path to exoneration would have been for Ayers to have been tried for crimes that pogo couldn't specify.
Exoneration applies to being innocent.
I think you are talking aout redemption, wich requires being repentant.
Ayers is both an unrepentant terrorist and in a famous quote from Ayers himself about his guilt:
“Guilty as sin, free as a bird — what a country, America.”
case closed
"for Ayers to have been tried for crimes that pogo couldn't specify"
You mean like the bombings he himself admitted to?
WTF are you talking about?
Former law--
It doesn't matter to me how fancy Prof. Ayers' title is or how many degrees he has.
He and his wife murdered a cop with a pipe bomb. February 16, 1970. San Francisco. A second cop was maimed and partially blinded.
They got off the hook because of govt. misconduct.
US Senators should never, ever associate with cold-blooded murderers, especially those who want to overthrow our government.
And don't tell me this doesn't count because Ayers was never convicted...because even if he didn't plan the bomb himself or make it, he was an active member of the group that conspired to do the crime, making him equally guilty.
No one was ever tried and convicted for that crime. If I could only put a TV camera in his face and ask, "Prof. Ayers, do you know anything about the death of police officer Brian V. McDonnell? Do you have anything to say to his widow?"
AL: "But you guys think the most pressing issue in this election is whether Obama sat on a board of a group where Ayers was on a subcommittee."
No, you are attempting to trivialize the real issue and so avoid addressing what it means about Obama.
The issue is not Ayers or Wright, or who served on boards with whom. Those are pertinent facts, but the issue is Obama and what his relationships with those radical men says about his judgment and true beliefs.
Hoosier Daddy -
Once you stop protesting against perceived injustices and start shooting and blowing things up to make your point, you're a criminal at best or a traitor at worst.
Like the Minutemen at Lexington % Concord!
Or Beloved bomber-killer and Father of New S Africa, Nelson Mandela.
Let's not forget Israeli PMs, ex-terrorists Benachim Begin and Yishak Shamir. Or Sharon. Or Yassir Arafat or Fidel for that matter.
And plenty of other domestic insurgents were heroes. While many losers were indeed hung or shot as criminals or traitors.
Ayers is in the gray area. He lost, his revolution failed. But he was never tried for capital crimes like John Brown was. He was left to go on..
He was never amnestied like the losers of Shays Rebellion, the Civil War, or out "noble purple-fingered Sunni freedom lovers" who are now being paid to kill AQ Islamoids rather than kill US Troops as violent insurgents.
There is no fine, bright line where law can be assumed to have the moral high ground over the need for violent Revolution outside the laws meant to protect the rule of the King of England or even the "sacred" Constitution of the USA.
How do you then say Revolution was justified and moral?
Well, you gotta win. Then you get to make all the books say what a hero you were and draft the laws to protect your interests against other revolts.
Ayers retains his odious past reputation, unredeemed by time, and sucked the Annointed One into his vortex.
He did not in any way try to improve schools. Instead, he took the money and co-opted it to try to push radical progressive views on students.
Did you read more than the headline? Kurtz's article proves no such thing.
wikipedia links to a KRON-TV story from 2003, regarding reopening the investigation into the 1970 SF bombing. Note that there were three candidate organizations, including the Black Liberation Army, who had made a practice of blowing up SF Police Stations:
Last fall, according to law enforcement sources, San Francisco police turned over its evidence to the US attorney, who took over the investigation. The government quietly convened a federal grand jury which subpoenaed former members of not only the Weather Underground but the Black Panthers and the more militant Black Liberation Army, which investigators believe was responsible for the Ingleside shooting.
The wikipedia article does not allege even that Ayers was in California at the time. To credit the Grathwohl testimony to Congress, you have to believe that an FBI informant would suppress information material to a murder investigation. Hopefully he testified in front of the 2000-2003 grand jury. But apparently there was no fire behind the smoke, because it's five years later, and still no indictment of Dohrn or Ayers. (There is no statute of limitations for murder.)
And if my girlfriend ever blows herself up while making bombs, I hope I am not automatically held responsible for it.
Cedarford:
And plenty of other domestic insurgents were heroes. While many losers were indeed hung or shot as criminals or traitors.
Um, I find myself i agreement with this except for the last paragraph.
Weird, that.
Meanwhile some decent people and Republicans (it happens) are aghast at the coverup happening in Alaska by the McCain campaign.
Calling herself a "raging Republican," Green says, she is "absolutely disgusted, embarrassed, and ashamed" by the McCain-Palin campaign's intervention in the Troopergate probe.
Green is alarmed by the McCain squad's use of hardball tactics and "the length to which they're going to impede and delay" the investigation. The local press conferences held by McCain-Palin aides, she adds, "are vile. They're attacking nice people, saying things that are not true. Walt Monegan has been respected in all circles. To see him used as a scapegoat is very disheartening."
Sarah Palin abused power for a personal vendetta. McCain is trying to cover that up.
Republicans need to go back 150 years to find something they did to advance racial equality!!
- Senator Howard R) Michigan wrote the 13th Amendment
- Justice Warren (R) wrote Brown v Board of Ed
Alex said...
The Drill SGT said...
"Point me to a good reference for the Republican fight for civil rights for blacks pre-1964"
"The Emancipation Proclamation", A Lincoln (R) ring a bell?
do I need to find a link?
3:33 PM
Game, set and match!
3:33 PM
Pay attention folks. I already credited the Civil War and Reconstruction. It was the next hundred years I was curious about:
Blogger former law student said...
...
The Republicans also fell down historically when it came to civil rights for black people. After a promising start during the Civil War and Reconstruction, their push for equality between the races failed. The first US political party to treat blacks and whites as equal was the Communist Party; "transmission belt" groups they formed attracted many black people.
If people who believe in education and in civil rights belong to the Left, supporting these things will expose you to a lot of Leftists.
2:17 PM
And don't tell me this doesn't count because Ayers was never convicted...because even if he didn't plan the bomb himself or make it, he was an active member of the group that conspired to do the crime, making him equally guilty.
Ayers was an active member of one of three groups recently suspected of committing the crime, making his guilt extremely dubious.
"Can anyone point me to the front page article in the NY Times where they actually investigated the depth and length of their association? LA Times? Washington Post? ABC? NBC? CBS?"
Indeed. We'll know that there really is something to this story when CBS starts using forged documents to "prove" it. Right? Fake but accurate.
'This whole story is the Republican version of "What's that? look over there!"'
Ah yes. It must be a distraction from the malfeasance of the Repubs WRT the financial system (and don't you dare look at all of the Dem fingerprints all over it). Except that these issues have been raised repeatedly for months. A cynic could argue that the financial meltdown was an attempt to distract attention from Ayers (a cynic, or a conspiracy-minded lunatic).
McCain bars reporters from covering the laughably unprepared Sarah Palin meeting with diplomats at the UN.
But wait! A wingnut wrote an opinion piece attacking Obama!!
QUICK! LOOK OVER THERE!
"Republicans need to go back 150 years to find something they did to advance racial equality!!"
Which party broke the filibuster of the Civil Rights Act of 1957, and supported a must stronger act, and opposed the watering down of the act?
That would be the Republicans.
The going back 150 years line did not follow from them using the most obvious example to counter a stupid assertion, rather than a more recent one.
crimso:
Ah yes. It must be a distraction from the malfeasance of the Repubs WRT the financial system.
You mean like the repeal of Glass-Stegal led by McCain adviser Phil "Americans are whiners" Gramm and voted for by McSame?
John McCain said we should deregulate health care like we did the finance industry. Hmmmm.. great plan!
Yes, I know there are conservative Democrats who fall for the right wing lies. No shit, sherlock.
I think you are talking aout redemption, wich requires being repentant.
Ayers is both an unrepentant terrorist
I agree with the drill sgt. here. Ayers's lack of repentence is deplorable. People who excuse their own wrongdoing no matter what are monstrous. I would rather give Ayers a fat lip than spend five minutes in his house.
Look, the Republican Party has embraced racism in their Southern Strategy. There's simple no debate about that.
The racist Dixecrats were driven from the Democratic Party in the 1960s and found a welcome home in the Republican Party. See: Strom Thurmond.
Moderate Republicans have been driven to extinction. The modern Republican Party is ideologically rigid, racist and corrupt.
God! You guys are still beating this non-issue to death? Only discredited cranks like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh are pushing this tripe. The smart normal people are focusing on the economy and how Bush screwed it up royally.
The smart normal people are focusing on the economy and how Bush screwed it up royally.
Right. The smart people. You few, proud, smart people. How come you can't win elections more often if you are so smart?
Me, I guess I'm dumb, but my candidate is going to win, so I got that going for me, which is nice.
John McCain loves him some financial industry deregulation.
Ah, I see this discussion is coming to a close, because AlphaLiberal is in full scorched-earth mode.
I guess it's really, really lucky of Obama to not have any connections to the latest clusterfuck (cough, cough, Raines, Johnson). Because everybody knows (and there's simply no debate about it, and my declaring it so makes it so) that Repubs are racists. And that's all that matters.
Seven Machos I hope you ar seasoning your hat! It is going to be good eatin'!
One would hope for Obama's sake that Raines and Johnson live in Hyde Park. Much easier to dismiss that way.
Obama is too far to the left to win. Period.
No, it is coming to a close because it is a silly topic and a nonissue in this election where there are so many important ones.
Ah, Seven Machos,
I see you are setting yourself up to eat a sombrero! Very cool!
"I would rather give Ayers a fat lip than spend five minutes in his house."
But the future President gets a pass for not only going in his house, but starting his political career their, and working with him doing Alinsky-style 'community organizing'?
Too bad for Democrats that they didn't put up a candidate who could win an election year gift-wrapped for Democrats. I mean, what with all these important issues at stake.
Tell me lefties, honestly, what would be happening right now if Hillary Clinton were the nominee?
...crickets chirping...
After much reflection I've decided that you guys are right. It's the worse possible offense for Barack Obama not to have resigned from an education reform effort 13 years ago because Bill Ayers, who did bad things 40 years ago, was involved on a subcommittee of that effort.
Really, what was I thinking?
I'm voting Republican, bitches.
Jim:
Can anyone point me to the front page article in the NY Times where they actually investigated the depth and length of their association? LA Times? Washington Post? ABC? NBC? CBS?
Alpha Liberal: I'm not even looking and the story has not even been written because it's trivial.
The country is teetering on the brink of economic ruin, we have two wars going, massive deficits, rampant corruption, severe environmental problems.
I don't see AL's logic here.
1. The country's got a lot of problems.
2. Barack Obama is running for president.
3. However, given our country's problems, it is "trivial" to try to learn anything meaningful about Barack Obama.
I think the reverse is true. Clearly the next president is going to have to be a person of superb gifts as a political leader, and as a chief executive. He must demonstrate great intelligence AND great character. Because the country is in such tough shape, we need to know more of what you call "trivia," not less, so we can best judge who leads us at this difficult time.
Your position is, all we need to know about Barack Obama is that our country has economic problems, fighting two wars, etc. In other words, we don't need to know anything about him. Just think about how fucked up the country is, and vote for Obama. That's what you hope to see happen.
That's just not adequate. If anything, that kind of argument raises suspicions that Obama is merely exploiting our country's problems for his personal gain.
Obama's character issues aren't a distraction from the country's problems. The country's problems are a distraction from the real issue in front of is as voters, which is who would be the better president?
I suspect that if the media keeps up with its hands-off approach to Obama's life history, Obama will lose. You all keep forgetting that poll after poll shows the voters think the media is overprotecting him. Combine that will longstanding research showing the media are not trusted, and you've got a deadly combination for Obama. Voters will think, "they're not talking about Obama's past, therefore they must hiding something damaging to trick us into voting for him."
The media are so used to hearing only their side of the conversation, they don't realize voters are much smarter than they give them credit for. They are filling in the blanks the media are so obviously leaving for them.
One more point on this topic. Bill Clinton got elected twice, despite a truckload of damaging information about him that was out in public. The voters processed it, decided for themselves its relative importance, and ended up narrowly electing him. I suspect Obama would survive a thorough vetting and might actually see his poll numbers go up after an initial dip. But the media seems disinclined to look at him, and they'll see in the end what a mistake that was.
they'll see in the end what a mistake that was
Will they?
Republicans need to go back 150 years to find something they did to advance racial equality!!
What about the Civil Rights Act of 1957 introduced by the Eisenhower Administration in the wake of the Little Rock school desegregation? This act is generally considered the precursor to the 1964 and 1965 Civil Rights Bills.
Seven,
You are going to have a miserable five weeks and then you will eat your sombrero. I like it!
Ayers was an active member of one of three groups recently suspected of committing the crime, making his guilt extremely dubious.
"Guilty as sin, free as a bird..." means what then?
You're defending a guy who doesn't defend himself; who doesn't think there's anything wrong with what he did; who wishes he had done more.
"If people who believe in education and in civil rights belong to the Left, supporting these things will expose you to a lot of Leftists."
IF
Alpha -
I'm not even looking and the story has not even been written because it's trivial.
Did you seriously just write that? The same guy who was here for two weeks straight breathlessly cutting-and-pasting every scurrilous rumor about Sarah Palin? The one who was absolutely convinced Trig and Bristol Palin were completely relevant to her qualifications for the job?
Have you ever even seen a sense of irony?
All of these rumors were the stuff of multiple front page articles on the NYT,so let's not pretend that they're somehow "above" what you now conveniently call trivial.
Seriously Alpha...you're embarrassing yourself here. You better come up for air because you're going to drown at the bottom of that tank for Obama...
At his first press conference in 6 weeks (gee, I wonder why), McCain said the bailout would cost every family in America $10,000.
Does that number sound familiar?
Can you say...Iraq?
*And what in the the wide world of politics does Obama's height have to do with anything?
l.e. lee:
The smart normal people are focusing on the economy and how Bush screwed it up royally.
I knew it had to be Bush's fault! More info, please Mr.Lee.
donn, you're actually trying to mount a defense of the Bush administration's handling of the economy?
With a straight face?
And if we were 8 years into a Gore or Kerry administration, you'd be mounting a similar defense?
Right...
l.e. lee -
The political hacks and Axelrod are focusing on Bush, but the smart people are looking at culprits like the Community Reinvestment Act; Democrat hands deep in the pockets and on the boards of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac; Obama's Finance Manager Pritzker as the CEO of the bank who pioneered subprime mortgages; Barney Frank's continuing insistence on no-down-payment mortgages; Chris Dodd's refusal to allow reform legislation out of committee, and so on and so on.
Maybe you should join the smart people and leave the political hacks behind...
The fact that our resident liberals seem to dismiss Ayers self-avowed murderous nature speaks volumes to their amorality. they have confronted evil and have rationalized it to futher their cause. They are beyond disgust. When the only thing that they can say is, "well he didnt kill any one" is their sole justification, that speaks for itself. You people are genuinely sick and morally bankrupt.
jim: Dems bad...Repugs good.
Roger, If Ayers is such a disgusting character, why isn't he in jail?
And really, what does the fact that Obama knows this guy have to do anything?
McCain knows all kinds of people, associated with them accepted money from them, and worked with them...that have been in jail or are currently serving time.
Keating, Iran-Contra, lobbyists, Congeressmen, etc.
If Ayers is such a disgusting character, why isn't he in jail?
You don't go to jail for being disgusting.
Ayers isn't just disgusting, he's criminal. And he's not in jail because the FBI was also disgusting and criminal at the time.
Michael,
The truth is there is enough blame to go around from both parties.
Dems bad...Repugs bad. Agreed? Or where you just *trying* to make a point when you said to jim:
"Dems bad...Repugs good."
Because I expect you believe:
Dems good...Repugs bad.
michael -
Here's where you're wrong: I don't think Democrats are bad. I have often said that I am willing to have an honest discussion over policy with someone who disagrees with me. However, when amateur hacks like yourself are more interested in calling names ("Repugs") than discussing differences, then I have no problem calling you out on your lies and distortions. You want to say everything is Republicans' fault, but want to run away from any discussion of wrongdoing on the part of Democrats.
Your answer is always "Hey look over there at the shiny object!" Your simplistic response to what I had to say about the legitimate questions people are asking about the role of Democrats in this crisis is just another case in point.
Nice try, but the questions don't go away just because you stick your fingers in your ears and yell at the top of your lungs that "BUSHITLER DID IT!"
"Guilty as sin, free as a bird..." means what then?
You're defending a guy who doesn't defend himself; who doesn't think there's anything wrong with what he did; who wishes he had done more.
After living underground for several years, after Ayers and Dohrn turned themselves in, Ayers was not even charged with a parking violation. In contrast, Dohrn plea-bargained to charges of inciting to mob action and resisting police officers. No murders, not even an assault.
Ayers wished that by setting off more bombs, we would have pulled out of Vietnam earlier, as I understand it.
But the future President gets a pass for not only going in his house, but starting his political career their, and working with him doing Alinsky-style 'community organizing'?
Obama met Ayers before right-wing bloggers who could tell him what a mistake it would be existed. Plus aging Sixties' radicals are in respectable positions all over the world -- heck Obama's first loss came to former Black Panther Bobby Rush. Further, as rummy pointed out, "you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want."
Roger said...They are beyond disgust. When the only thing that they can say is, "well he didnt kill any one" is their sole justification
Troop, I would make one minor correction. what they are claiming is:
"well he didnt admit to PERSONALLY kill any one, though he does admit he is guilty as sin and proud of it"
"Roger, If Ayers is such a disgusting character, why isn't he in jail?"
If you honestly don't know the answer to that question, then that would explain a lot.
fls -
After living underground for several years, after Ayers and Dohrn turned themselves in, Ayers was not even charged with a parking violation.
Is your position that Ayers didn't do the things that he himself admits to? That's the only way in which your response is in any way meaningful.
I suspect you know that the only reason they weren't charged was because of prosecutorial misconduct which prejudiced the case, but that you're being deliberately dishonest here. Or did Axelrod really convince you that Ayers didn't do it?
Ayers wished that by setting off more bombs, we would have pulled out of Vietnam earlier, as I understand it.
And Osama bin Laden wished that by killing more Americans through suicide bombers, we would have converted to Sharia law earlier, as I understand it.
Explain to me the difference between these two individuals again? I'll answer for you: the only difference is that you want someone who owes his entire political career to one of them to be elected President, and the other one isn't a Democrat.
Obama's Finance Manager Pritzker as the CEO of the bank who pioneered subprime mortgages;
The case of Superior Bank is instructive. They started issuing and securitizing sub-prime mortgages in 1991, while Penny was at the helm, and went belly-up in 2001. Penny stepped down in 1994. This would have been an interesting case for the Bush administration to study.
Is your position that Ayers didn't do the things that he himself admits to?
The point was to explain Ayers' verbal sigh of relief.
Explain to me the difference between these two individuals again?
One killed thousands of Americans; the other caused property damage only.
fls -
It would have been more instructive for Obama not to hire her as his Finance Chair...or do you want to defend yet another "person in his neighborhood" association?
Ayers was not even charged with a parking violation. In contrast, Dohrn plea-bargained to charges of inciting to mob action and resisting police officers. No murders, not even an assault.
Ayers wished that by setting off more bombs, we would have pulled out of Vietnam earlier, as I understand it.
FLS that is a bit off.
Ayers was charged with various charges related to bombing, arson etc. They were dismissed in 76-77 due to FBI errors. He was charged.
He admitted his crimes and guilt in public. proud of it.
dohrn was found guilty of aggravated battery and for contempt of court for refusing to testify in a robbery/murder case for a crime in 1981. 1981, the Vietnam war was long over. the Vietnam war resistance was bogus. These folks wanted to overthrow the government they still do. Susan Rosenberg was the person that Dohrn covered for. Here is how she was caught:
After living as a fugitive for two years, she was arrested with an accomplice in 1984 while unloading 740 pounds of dynamite and weapons from a car into a New Jersey storage locker
1984. the US left Vietnam in 1973
stone cold killers and terrorists.
They delared war on the US and no treaty was ever signed
give them a trial, line them up against the wall and shoot them
I feel the same about the WU as I do about Hanoi Jane
fls -
If that's the best the Obama campaign can provide in the way of talking points, then it explains why they call in the brownshirt brigades to shut down any discussion of the issue.
He was the head of the group that killed people. Whether or not he pulled the trigger is irrelevant: he pointed the proverbial gun. You can play games all you want and allow your morality to be as twisted as it needs to be to defend that kind of domestic terrorism, but it doesn't change the facts.
donn, if we had the situations we have today, between Iraq, Afghanistan, the economy, the housing meltdown...would you not be blaming the Democrat...if that's who was President?
You and everybody else here knows the answer to that.
To this moment in time you still give literally NO credit to Clinton for the eight years he was President, yet if the name Ronald Reagan is raised, you refer to him as the greatest President ever.
*And remember, the "trickle down" days of Ronnie may have finally come home to roost.
Everybody is yapping about Obama, but where in the hell is John McCain??
Obama has had numerous press conferences over the past weeks, discussing any issue that was raised. He's been in front of the press at least three times over the past five days.
McCain, on the other hand, had his first press conference in six weeks today. (Palin...it's been 4 weeks since she faced the press...and today they locked the press out of her meeting in New York.)
When IS Palin going to stand in front of a group and answer questions???
Everybody is yapping about Obama, but where in the hell is John McCain??
Just a guess, but not associating with terrorists? (You know, to keep it on topic.)
When IS Palin going to stand in front of a group and answer questions???
Yesterday?
It would have been more instructive for Obama not to hire her as his Finance Chair.
I couldn't figure out why McCain hired (failed, fired) HP CEO Carly Fiorina as his Finance Chair. At least the Pritzkers paid $460 million for their screwup, while for her mismanagement, Carly received a $21 million severance, along with $21 million in pension and deferred compensation.
blake, Palin was at a town hall meeting that you had to have a ticket to got to a GOP office to get a ticket...and if you think they're not vetting the questions...you're out of your mind.
Why isn't she in front of room with the press asking questions?
This isn't a new concept you know.
dohrn was found guilty of aggravated battery
Dohrn was found guilty one time, after she and Ayers turned themselves in.
and for contempt of court for refusing to testify in a robbery/murder case for a crime in 1981. 1981, the Vietnam war was long over.
No one is "found guilty" of contempt of court. That is a penalty for not complying with court orders. Someone found in contempt has the key to her own jail cell. Dohrn merely did not want to testify against a friend, for something that occurred after Dohrn had turned herself in. Had Dohrn herself been involved, she could have asserted her right against self-incrimination.
In February, Smith asked Obama’s chief strategist (and reigning expert on Chicago’s political tribes), David Axelrod, about the Obama-Ayers relationship and got this answer:
“Bill Ayers lives in his neighborhood. Their kids attend the same school,” he said. “They’re certainly friendly, they know each other, as anyone whose kids go to school together.”
As it turned out, their kids did not go to school together, but Obama was the chairman of a $150 million effort spearheaded by Ayers on the important issue of public education, which funded “awful” projects and “had little impact on student outcomes.”
You would think Axelrod would have some ’splainin’ to do. But you would be wrong.
As the CAC story emerged, Ben Smith’s blase reaction clearly communicated that he did not care that he was misled by Camp Obama about the Ayers relationship, let alone that Obama’s biggest claim to executive experience (and a reform credential to boot) was judged to be a failure, even by the CAC. Indeed, Smith took the story as evidence of how mainstream Ayers is — as opposed to how dysfunctional the political culture of Chicago is.
In contrast, Smith felt compelled to nitpick statements by John McCain’s campaign strategist, Steve Schmidt, about the Ayers relationship. Smith added in a separate blog post that Schmidt’s comments were “‘Hey, look over here’ politics” — the campaign’s urgent attempt to change the subject from the economy. That was the daily talking point at the Huffington Post, too — even though McCain was making headlines talking about the economy the same day.
Perhaps those who read Ben Smith will stop thinking that he is “in the tank” for Obama when he stops doing the breaststroke through Obama’s Kool-Aid. And the same could be said for any number of Smith’s pals in the media.
http://patterico.com/2008/09/23/barack-obama-bill-ayers-and-ben-smith/
Answer: Yes.
Why isn't she in front of room with the press asking questions?
This isn't a new concept you know.
Neither is the concept that the press is in the tank for Obama. Doesn't make it true, of course.
A lot of lefties come here and claim the media is all right-wing biased and corporation-y.
I'm going to guess you weren't satisfied by her interview by "the Press" in the form of Sean Hannity and Charlie Gibson.
So let's agree the idea that "the press" has some special privilege regarding candidates or elected officials is increasingly outdated.
Let's also agree that you're not addressing this issue from a standpoint of the cruelly neutral.
What you really want is for people antagonistic to Palin to make accusations and then rebut any defenses she might make so as to diminish her in the eyes of other voters.
Can you see why someone might not want to be subjected to that, even if it does help in the polls?
fls knows well that Dohrn and Ayers headed up a domestic terrorist organization. He knows that Dohrn is on record as not only supporting, but celebrating, the Manson family murders as well as the depraved acts they committed in the process. He knows that their organization is responsible for killing people. He knows that they bombed the Pentagon. He knows they have never repented. He knows they wish they could do more.
He doesn't care. Any further
discussion is simply a matter of wasting your breath. He knows everything you're saying is true, but he's going to continue trying to argue technicalities which distract from the bigger issue: Bill Ayers and his wife are admitted, unrepentant domestic terrorists and Obama owes his entire political career to them.
Supporting Obama is the only morality he can see. If that requires throwing any sense of right or wrong out the window, then so be it. At this point he has reached a religious fervor that no amount of facts or logic are going to penetrate: you're only leading yourself to frustration by trying.
If loving Obama is wrong, he doesn't want to be right. Maybe after the election is over, he'll seek out some cult deprogramming intervention: until then, he might as well shave his head and hand out flowers at the airport while saying "Hare Obama".
I welcome being proved wrong. Point me to a good reference for the Republican fight for civil rights for blacks
Well you might want to learn why Democrats were referred to as Copperheads.
There is a start.
Obama’s biggest claim to executive experience (and a reform credential to boot) was judged to be a failure, even by the CAC.
Obama's board chairmanship was not an executive position. The CAC was run by Executive (note the title) Director Ken Rolling.
It's true that test scores for the CAC project students were indistinguishable from those of the control students. At most you can say the CAC was no worse than the Chicago Public Schools.
Once you stop protesting against perceived injustices and start shooting and blowing things up to make your point, you're a criminal at best or a traitor at worst.
Like the Minutemen at Lexington % Concord!
That's exactly how the British viewed them too Cedarford.
Bill Ayers and his wife are admitted, unrepentant domestic terrorists
True. Although they probably don't blurt that out when you first meet them.
and Obama owes his entire political career to them.
I don't see how. They hosted a meet and greet at the start of his career, and they gave his first campaign $200.
There is no fine, bright line where law can be assumed to have the moral high ground over the need for violent Revolution outside the laws meant to protect the rule of the King of England or even the "sacred" Constitution of the USA.
Well therein lies the difference. English law may have been to protect the King but the Constitution spells out the right of the people. Ayers was a product of his generation where bomb throwing was more romantic.
FLS: "Obama's board chairmanship was not an executive position. The CAC was run by Executive (note the title) Director Ken Rolling."
You have got to be kidding. So you are saying that Obama can't count this as "executive experience"?
A chairman of the board is ultimately responsible for the overarching success of the organization. They run the board who sets direction, approves strategy and budgets, and gives the chief executive (in this case, Executive Director) his or her marching orders.
Roger, If Ayers is such a disgusting character, why isn't he in jail?
I've asked the same question about OJ Simpson too.
To this moment in time you still give literally NO credit to Clinton for the eight years he was President
Isn't Clinton the President who signed Grahmm Leach Bliley into law?
I'll heap tons of blame on Bush but then again Bush also was demanding reform of Fred/Fann when Barney Frank and Chris Dodd were insisting everything was fine.
The differences here is that nearly all conservatives here will call Bush out on his failures. You lose all credibility when you fail to do the same to your own party which has as much shit on its hands as the GOP/
So, to sum up:
When Obama met Ayers, his bombplanting days were two decades in the past, he had been careful to kill or injure no one, and after turning himself into the authorities he was charged with nothing. His subsequent life was exemplary: He was a husband and father, adopting the children of his former associates. He began studying education, eventually getting a doctorate, becoming Distinguished Professor of Education and Senior University Scholar at the University of Illinois at Chicago. After similarly turning herself in and serving her time, his wife also led an exemplary life, becoming a clinical professor at the Northwestern University Law School, specializing in legal protections for children. The Ayers are neighbors to the Obamas, although back in 1995 Obama chaired the board of an educational non-profit founded by Ayers. Ayers' tenure on the board overlapped Obama's by one year. Later, Ayers and Obama were board members of the grantmaking foundation Woods Fund, from 1998 till 2001, when their relationship reverted to being mere neighbors.
Neither Dohrn nor Ayers regrets the radical activities of their youth.
Board Chair Job Description
The following description was adapted from materials from BoardSource. Note that materials apply to both for-profit and nonprofit unless otherwise noted.
1. Is a member of the Board
2. Serves as the Chief Volunteer of the organization (nonprofit only)
3. Is a partner with the Chief Executive in achieving the organization's mission
4. Provides leadership to the Board of Directors, who sets policy and to whom the Chief Executive is accountable.
5. Chairs meetings of the Board after developing the agenda with the Chief Executive.
6. Encourages Board's role in strategic planning
7. Appoints the chairpersons of committees, in consultation with other Board members.
8. Serves ex officio as a member of committees and attends their meetings when invited.
9. Discusses issues confronting the organization with the Chief Executive.
10. Helps guide and mediate Board actions with respect to organizational priorities and governance concerns.
11. Reviews with the Chief Executive any issues of concern to the Board.
12. Monitors financial planning and financial reports.
13. Plays a leading role in fundraising activities (nonprofit only)
14. Formally evaluates the performance of the Chief Executive and informally evaluates the effectiveness of the Board members.
15. Evaluates annually the performance of the organization in achieving its mission.
16. Performs other responsibilities assigned by the Board.
Jim, while I agree with your read of FLS, I can't pass this one up:
When Obama met Ayers, his bombplanting days were two decades in the past, he had been careful to kill or injure no one, and after turning himself into the authorities he was charged with nothing. His subsequent life was exemplary:
If you go to youtube, and search for MSU SDS, you'll find Dohrn and Ayers talking about continuing the revolution in "belly of the beast" , less than a year ago 30 Nov 2007.
exemplary? hardly.
careful to avoid injurying anyone? that's whey they built a nail bomb that blew up half a cty block?
what part of nail bomb and NCO club dance don't you comprehend?
incompetence is why they didn't kill more people, not morals.
and Obama owes his entire political career to them.
Wrong. He owese his entire political career to Emil Jones, a paragon of poltical corruption, the epitome of unethical political behavior, and a venal, amoral patronage hack who rose to be one of the most pwoerful men in the state.
He picked Obama, he groomed him, and he ran him for office. Obama sold his soul to the devil.
drill sgt -
By the same logic fls applies:
If Osama bin Laden or any of his associates manages to escape capture long enough, then they become "respectable members of society" by default and then it will be perfectly okie-dokie to hang out with them in public even if they never so much as utter an insincere "Hey, sorry about the misunderstanding. We were sure those buildings would be empty." After all, you can't expect there to actually be, you know, people at an NCO dance, can you?
I mean, that's how it worked for the Nazis. It's not like anyone held them responsible for something they did 50 years ago or anything like that. I mean, who on earth would hunt someone down and try them for crimes against humanity that are 50 years old? It must have been some kind of political witch hunt: everyone knows that it doesn't even take 20 years to completely rehabilitate yourself even if you never repent your crime...Because you know those enlisted men that were going to be at the NCO dance weren't really human, don't you?
Moral of the story? If you drink enough Kool-Aid, you'll evenutally drown in your own amorality.
peter -
Only a slight quibble. Ayers got him started. If not for the connections he made through Ayers, he never would have gotten his career off the ground.
Emil Jones was his mentor once he reached the Illinois senate. Jones guided him through the halls of power in Illinois and sponsored his initial bid for the US Senate.
We're both getting at the same point though: he laid down with pretty despicable bedfellows - from Ayers to Wright (whose church he went to in order to get the votes) to Jones - to get to where he is, and now he wants to pretend that none of it ever happened.
And, by the way, if you disagree, then you're a racist...
Drill Sgt..The emancipation proclamation was the most bogus thing ever done. Only slaves in the states which had let the union were freed. Those in border states such as Delaware and Maryland were NOT! Only those the union had no control over. At least the republicans did not create a dependent subculture to farm future votes as have the dems
...had left the union...sorry
Elliott -- Thus making the Union army an army of liberation.
No one here seems too well-informed about the Weather Underground. To begin with, no one has talked about how the group came into being as an off-shoot of SDS (Students for a Democratic Society).
The Weathermen were obsessed with the idea that blacks should be the "vanguard of the revolution." At a big SDS meeting in 1969, among the speakers was a Black Panther, who when asked what should be the position of women in the revolution, said (on-mic): "The prone position!" which caused him to be booed. Women's Lib was still fairly new.
Bernadine Dohrn (who was extremely attractive, incidentally, in her miniskirt) denounced the booing as racist, and led a walkout (of a few). Thus was born Weatherman. They issued a manifesto, and led the "Days of Rage" in Chicago, during which they wore football helmets etc and sought to fight riot-police.
They also went into high schools and attempted to lead students in "jailbreaks", i.e., faux-spontaneous rebellion against their (by definition) "oppressive" teachers.
Then they went underground, after skipping various court dates stemming from their arrests. Bill Ayers and Dohrn were always the leaders. There's no controversy about this and it's disingenuous to imply otherwise.
During the years they were underground they were still very active, for example helping break Timothy Leary out of prison for instance, getting him to Algeria where he joined Eldridge Cleaver (former head of the Black Panthers who had said a black man raping a white woman is a revolutionary act).
In 1981 there was the Brinks Robbery of an armored truck, involving members of the Black Liberation Army and at least four members of the Weather Underground. Two policemen were killed along with one Brinks Driver. They were, quite simply, outgunned. The robbers had automatic weapons and wore bullet-proof vests.
Bernadine Fohrn had at least some peripheral involvement in this crime, as she was (under another name) managing a gift shop which helped provide phony IDs to some of the robbers.
She refused to testify before a grand jury, was found in contempt of court and served seven months in prison.
It's notable that she and Ayers were represented by Leonard Garment, one of the most prominent lawyers in Washington. But then, Ayers and Dohrn -- and most of these "revolutionaries," come from extremely wealthy families, and have always had access to limitless funds.
What used to be said, in SDS, about Weatherman: "You don't need a rectal thermometer to know who the assholes are."
seven machos- army of occupation...they wouldn't allow the free slaves into the North
Huh. I had thought the Weather Underground Brinks robbery was the inspiration for the armored car heist in The Enforcer, but that movie came out in the '70s.
When did armor car heists become "revolutionary"?
Ignacio,
I'd only add "Broadway Baby" as the shop name that Dohrn ran so folks can google it.
and note as I said above, Susan Rosenberg was the person that Dohrn covered for. Here is how she was caught:
After living as a fugitive for two years, she was arrested with an accomplice in 1984 while unloading 740 pounds of dynamite and weapons from a car into a New Jersey storage locker
1984, not 1973 when we left Nam. It's always been about violent revolution for Ayers and Dohrn, the Vietnam war protests ere just a mass appeal excuse.
Blake said...inspiration for the armored car heist in The Enforcer, but that movie came out in the '70s.
The Enforcer = 1976
SLA 73-75. Bank heists and kidnappings in the Bay area and LA
The People's Revolutionary Strike Force = Symbionese Liberation Army
Note the PRSF was white led
Uhuru = Black Panther Party.
Uhuru = was uni-racial
So, you're saying that not only was Dohrn a terrorist and a robber, she was also a plagiarist?
I just want to remind you all that this discussion of just how repulsive Ayers and Dohrn [thx. Ignacio for adding some much needed context] were and are as well as how poorly this whole episode reflects on Barack Obama's "judgment" (you know, that thing that is so much more important than experience) is not helping Michelle Obama's children...
Hey! Where da liberals at?
Bissage made a great point 100 posts ago about Ayers being a terrorist actually helps Obama in a counter-intuitive way.
And someone did something to Cederford, 'cause he was making way too much sense.
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