This is, I think, a smart demonstration of leadership. McCain is suspending his campaign and seeking a postponement of the debate that is scheduled for this Friday.
Meanwhile, speaking of leadership, where's our incredible shrinking president, Mr. Bush?
UPDATE: Obama says that "there are times for politics and there are times to rise above politics and do what’s right," but now is not the time to cancel the debate. "This is exactly the time when people need to hear from the candidates." And: "Part of the president’s job is to deal with more than one thing at once. In my mind it’s more important than ever."
I suppose Obama couldn't very well follow McCain's lead. In fact, if McCain had really been serious about this, he should have worked it out with Obama in private, so that the two men could make a joint announcement. McCain went for political theatrics, and I guess he can use it against Obama now, which was probably the point, but Obama's reaction was so predictable that McCain's show of statesmanship was entirely bogus, so I will be impervious to that rhetoric.
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४११ टिप्पण्या:
«सर्वात जुने ‹थोडे जुने 411 पैकी 201 – 400 नवीन› नवीनतम»Your little NYT/Axelrod-inspired talking point about the Fannie money and Rick Davis has already been debunked.
The hell it has been. Only in wingnuttia.
John McCain is also on record being in favor of financial industry deregulation and is the worst of the KEating Five.
Obviously, Revenant. My point is that, in a democratic society, a presidential campaign is serious business -- and this one is especially serious. McCain is acting as if it's some silly game he has to opt out of while he does grown-up stuff. I can't imagine what McCain and Obama constituting two percent of the Senate, could possibly do in committee that would be more important than this election.
Obama never called for a suspension of the campaign. Unless someone can back up that claim...
Obama is voting present on the economy, just like he voted present after Russia invaded Georgia.
This is not so much a smart demonstration of leadership as it is a smart political demonstration of the Hail Mary pass. McCain obviously is aware that the bounce he got when he picked Sarah Barracuda as his running mate is over and that Obama is drawing ahead in the poll of polls. How to slow his opponent's momentum? Call a timeout. If Obama agrees, he's acting against his own interests; if he disagrees, McCain can smear him for caring more about winning the presidency than for the good of his country. This isn't leadership on McCain's part. It's Rovism.
I think that we need a president that would put the United States in front of what he wants. We all know that the US is in deep trouble and right now they need to put everything into getting it straightened out. I think McCain is right and shows GREAT Leadership. We all should look around and see we need something done fast instead of who is going to be president. McCain has priorities straight.
I just went to McCain's website and read their response to NYT article saying that Davis (his aide) recieved 15k dollars every month from fannie mae.
McCain camp says...the Firm DavisManaport recieved the money...not "Davis" his aide.
Just the Firm that is named after his aide...which his aide....who owns the firm....has nothing to do with.
You see the money went to the Firm Davis Manaform and NOT davis himself.
case closed
Does McCain own a TV or a cell phone?
They've been dealing with this for ten days, open meetings on TV every day...and he's just now going to get everything in order?
First of all, it's the Republicans who are blocking any form of agreement, and just yesterday, McCain was at a plant discussing solar panel and energy...nothing whatsoever about the economy.
What could have possibly happened over the past 24 hours to spark his sudden interest?
Oh...wait...the polls.
Obama's response was pretty snotty, imho, and just basic office politics. "I signed the bday card, too, but wanted happy hour instead of cake."
Note to Mr. Obama: I want change, too. In my pocket.
alpha -
The "electoral process" consists of holding the primaries, the parties officially naming their nominees, and the election itself in November 4th.
Everything else is showmanship - including the debates. If you really want to go out with the line that debates are an essential part of the "electoral process" and the guy who interferes with it is unfit for the office, then I guess that precludes you from voting for Obama...you know, the guy that tried to act like a tough guy and claimed he would debate McCain any time, any where and then ran away screaming like a little school girl when McCain offered to do a series of joint townhalls? Yeah...that guy...
Does that mean you're going to vote Nader? As far as I know, he's never backed away from a debate which was offered to him. You might want to look up his positions on the issues: I think you'll find a lot of common ground there.
As a side note, do you even bother to read the stuff you get sent to cut-and-paste on Axelrod's behalf or do you know how ridiculous you sound and do it anyway?
Agreed, Victoria. As to what benefit would it be for McCain or Obama would have on this process by being there? Neither one is part of the Congressional leadership. Neither one has an extensive background in economics. Neither one would be leading the charge in Congress. It seems to me that they are more of a distraction than anything else. No doubt Presidential politics would creep into the process and just slow everything down. Putting country first for this one means knowing when to get out of the way. Retool the debate topic to economics.
My mother had a very depressing talk with her broker today.
I’ll bet. I am quite glad to be 30 years away from retirement right now. Generally, you end up making money during economic downturns because you buy cheap, but there are exceptions and it's not good if you don't have time to rebound.
I don’t think it’s surprising that Anthony is pessimistic. I told my boss at the beginning of the year that this is probably the dem’s to lose, but they are very good at losing so I wouldn’t be surprised if they did.
That said, major financial meltdowns are generally not good for the party in power, but if McCain can successfully sell himself as prescient about this issue and a leader, compared to Obama, he might still manage. The polls are bad right now, but the polls are almost always weighted wrongly to benefit the Dems. So we’ll see.
John McCain is also on record being in favor of financial industry deregulation
McCain's version of deregulation was being the chief co-sponser of the bill in 2005 that would have taken Fannie and Freddie out of the mortgage market. Instead, the Democrats in the Senate blocked the bill (because they liked subprime loans) and Fannie/Freddie went on to purchase $1 trillion in sub-prime loans which is the root cause of this financial crisis.
During this time Obama was collecting $100k from Fannie, hiring their CEO's as his advisors and campaigning for change.
another 9g turn inside the mig.
maverick goes to guns.
Or in terms Roger will understand:
TC: gunner, battlesight, three tanks, left tank!
L: up!
G identified!
TC Fire!
G on the way
TC: Target, shift right!
L: up!
G identified!
TC Fire!
G on the way
TC: Target, shift right!
L: up!
G identified!
TC Fire!
G on the way
TC: Target, cease fire
engagement time to kill three tanks, 9 seconds
My point is that, in a democratic society, a presidential campaign is serious business
A presidential campaign is just one of many ways in which a candidate convinces people he ought to be President. It is not "serious business", except of course for the candidate himself.
I can't imagine what McCain and Obama [...] could possibly do in committee that would be more important than this election.
How this crisis gets handled is a hell of a lot more important than who wins in November.
uws guy, actually Davis is a partner in the firm and he isn't an "aide," he's the campaign manager.
And since when does the McCain website serve as an objective source for such a charge?
Davis's firm, the Washington, D.C. based lobbying firm Davis Manafort, continued to receive $15,000 a month from Freddie Mac until last month-long after the Homeownership Alliance had been terminated.
The two sources, who requested anonymity discussing sensitive information, told Newsweek that Davis himself approached Freddie Mac in 2006 and asked for a new consulting arrangement that would allow his firm to continue to be paid.
The arrangement was approved by Hollis McLoughlin, Freddie Mac's vice president for external relations, because "he [Davis] was John McCain's campaign manager and it was felt you couldn't say no," said one of the sources.
*If it's a lie, Davis can sue for libel...but don't hold your breath.
Sorry Michael I wasn't clear, I was attempting to be sarcastic. I agree with your writeup.
BTW, Obama whining is not a response to McCain's chess move. Obama has to make his next move.
On this point Alex you are correct.
Just the Firm that is named after his aide...which his aide....who owns the firm....has nothing to do with.
You left out the part that Davis left his former firm in 2006 and hasn't received a dime from it since then.
Apparently the Times forgot to follow up on that part... or they just lied... I woner which?
If this were combat, McCain just blew away 3 of Obama's tanks and Obama is just whining about it. When will Obama fight back? Inquiring minds want to know?
So...McCain now will not show up for the debate....
What is Obama going to do....be there...stand alone under the lights?
That might look...odd.
Won't it?
Especially if McCain is in D.C. in some high-level meeting?
I forgot that Obama did not vote present on the surge. He did vote against that one.
This is nothing but a dodge by McCain because of his plummeting in the polls.
This didn't just happen.
He could have been there a week ago or two days ago or yesterday.
Today, huge poll numbers come out that don't look good and he suddenly MUST RETURN TO WASHINGTON...as if HE is going to put everything in order.
Why would John McCain carry any more weight than those who have been involved in this situation for quite some time...and why would Americans believe he knows more than those who are actively dealing with the specifics of the negotiations?
It's a crock and Americans will recognize it for what it is: political pandering.
Obama is a knock-knock joke.
Knock, knock,
Who's there
Obama
Obama who
O ba ma self on debate night.
michael -
Are you going to repeat the same lies in this thread too?
Davis is not a partner in the firm. He has no financial interest nor done any work for the firm in 2 years.
Did you change your underwear and go get that lunch your mother fixed for you yet?
The firm has his fucking name on it.
case closed.
Instapundit linked to this article suggesting that the debate go on, but with a twist:
2) Volunteer to let his VP nominee sit in for him against Obama on Friday.
Yes, I realize the media is still all about Palin - who cares. I'd make the offer.
Palin v. Obama on Friday. THAT my dears would be the matchup of the century. 1/2 of the world would tune in, even if only to eat popcorn.
McCain is acting as if it's some silly game he has to opt out of while he does grown-up stuff.
Which may prove to be an excellent campaign strategy.
Look, whoever is elected is going to inherit this mess. Being there while it goes down allows you to: a) possibly influence it in a way you think will minimize damage; b) get a full sense of arguments being made pro- and con-.
Maybe it's a cynical campaign stunt, but it fits perfectly with his Iraq war support.
As a political move, I guess we'll just have to see how it plays out. Clearly the McCain camp will be claiming he's Country First, while the Obama camp will be claiming he's Politics First. Which message lands is a toss up imho, and most likely depends on how the pundits tell the majority to think over the next news cycle (is that cynical?).
As a real attempt to deal with the economic crisis, it's just not credible. Neither senator is on the committees that are intended to focus on these things and develop pre-solutions prior to opening up general debate. In every organization, going around the existing structures creates more pandemonium than solutions. As others are already noting, bringing the two candidates, with all that electoral baggage back to Washington, will impede whatever process there is.
O ba ma self on debate night.
LOL!
Suddenly he loves Town Hall meetings.
In a word: stunt.
McCain doesn't want to spend 90 minutes with Obama when he's probably already spent more than 90 minutes thinking up this scheme with his staff.
Obama would send Hillary.
People keep throwing deregulation at McCain like it was what really got us into this mess. That myth has been debunked in the past week many times over. You can find the arguments against it if you do some research. I think it is ill-thought to blame the crisis on deregulation, just as it is ill-thought to go along it, and argue blankly that McCain was against it. These talking bots picked up the word, and are running with it without stopping to think about its meaning and its extent. Are we using deregulation as a synonym for "lack of oversight over federally backed mixed enterprises"? Are we using it as a synonym of legislative support for corruption within these institutions? How are we defining it in this context?
Henry>Actually, Obama suggested a joint statement, and McCain one-upped him. It is gamesmanship, but not void of reason as I wrote above.
A McCain spokesperson said on Fox that Obama called and left a message, he did not mention a topic or speak to McCain this morning.
WTF? I can't believe the campaigns don't have private contact numbers. This has the makings of a PR clusterfuck for Obama.
The firm has his fucking name on it
case closed.
My friends the Edisons will be delighted to hear that.
"This was initially Obama's idea. You need to post the whole story. Wow, you people really do live in bubbles."
Oh please. Somebody call the WHAHHHMBULANCE!!!!
Sloan says: "You left out the part that Davis left his former firm in 2006 and hasn't received a dime from it since then."
And, you're wrong again...as usual.
Mr. Davis took a leave from Davis & Manafortfor the presidential campaign, but as a partner and equity-holder continues to benefit from its income.
No one at Davis & Manafort other than Mr. Davis was involved in efforts on Freddie Mac’s behalf, the people familiar with the arrangement said.
* And what would possibly make you believe (and didn't you say you practice law?) that the "partner" in a firm, whether he or she be on leave, would not share in the revenues the firm takes in?
He OWNS part of the company.
Enjoy spending $20.00 for a loaf of bread....if you can find any bread that is.
There will be plenty of bread unless there are price controls. With price controls, there won't be any.
The more I think about this, in pure strategic terms, this is John McCain's naval bloodline showing.
A brilliant move, with death as an option, even if it's political death.
He was willing (again) to die, so that America could live.
Obama was not.
section9 : Actually Obama called McCain early this morning and suggested the joint press conference to make a statement.
It's been widely reported on all networks...even Fox...so you have to believe it.
Revenant said...
"And if the President was elected by the popular vote, it would matter that Obama is ahead by 10 points. What actually matters is the electoral college."
And if Obama loses, that will be his supporters next target. It'll be the action item that they focus their rage and frustration onto. As Althouse said a few years ago, people care great deal about the Constitution when it's useful to them, and ignore it when it's in the way. The left has spent a lot of time bleating about the Bush administration and the Constitution, but don't be fooled into thinking they actually care about the Constitution. Any stick to beat a dog. As long as it's a cudgel to attack Bush with, they like it; to the extent it isn't, they'll ignore it, go around it or demand it be changed. They have no respect for federalism at all.
So now John McCain is jesus? He dies so that we can have everlasting life Vspurs?
Actually, unless the money starts flowing again and the banks stop hoarding it for their own safety, prices are likely to decline rather than rise.
A deflation traps occurs with the Fed can no longer increase the money supply because any money they print winds up in a bank vault rather than in circulation. People hoard when prices will be lower tomorrow. Hoarding money causes prices to be lower tomorrow, and there's your vicious cycle.
Japan had a decade of it.
That's why the Fed in normal times always wants a tiny bit of inflation, so they have some slack.
You know who loved Federalism Simon?
The southern secessionists.
(yes, I went there)
"He was willing (again) to die, so that America could live."
Good Lord...
He wants out of the frigging debate.
If this was soooooooooooooooo important, why wasn't he there yesterday or last week??
Nobody appears to be able to answer that one.
Michael said...
section9 : Actually Obama called McCain early this morning and suggested the joint press conference to make a statement.
It's been widely reported on all networks...even Fox...so you have to believe it.
4:35 PM
And you were there to witness this. I think you are confusing Second Life with rl.
Srsly.
"Enjoy spending $20.00 for a loaf of bread....if you can find any bread that is."
I already spend $20.00 for a loaf of bread. I live in New York.
Jim, I addressed your bullshit denials about McCain's campaign manager's connections to Fannie Mae in the other thread.
In short, you've raised a bunch of strawman arguments denying claims not even made in the NYT article!
If I were McCain, I'd say very well, let's debate on Friday as scheduled, but let it be 100% on the economy.
Not his strongsuit, but then, it's not Obama's either.
He would freak.
He certainly would freak. All those years of saying no to regulation, and his recent assertions that the economy is in great shape, Obama will wipe the floor with him.
I suspect neither of them wants to debate the crisis at this moment as the experts are only just coming to terms with the crisis, let alone a solution. The last thing either candidate wants is to be drawn into definitive statements re blame or solution.
michael -
Lying again. Davis isn't an equity partner and nor does he maintain any financial interest in the firm.
Next outrageous lie - other than that you changed your underwear already this week?
Actually Obama called McCain early this morning and suggested the joint press conference to make a statement.
If this is true, then it was an attempt by Obama for his own political stunt. Obviously, McCain smelled a rat and got Obama at his own game.
Obama really is the moron we all thought he was.
More erratic behavior from John McCain.
Maybe Obama will take this opportunity to campaign through Pennsylvania and discuss how he is actually against clean coal technology.
Stickup man Henry Paulson: Quick! Hand over $700 billion or I start the economic doomsday machine.
Taxpayer Jack Benny: I'm thinking... I'm thinking...
Anyone remember how the Obamabots kept repeating that Obama had already "won" the primary even before Pennsylvania. For months I heard how Obama had won and that Clinton was a bitch for not giving up. This was despite Clinton gaining and gaining and still having a reasonable ability to win the nomination. It was a strategy designed to stymie Clinton momentum. I suspect that this one ABC/Wapo poll will be seized on to accomplish the same lying narrative. A pretension of inevitability and an attempt to paint opposition as illegitimate. I feel badly for working class democrats and independents who are going to be told they are the same as klansmen if they don't vote Obama. If McCain wins they will be tarred this way for the next four years.
UWS guy said...
"You know who loved Federalism Simon? The southern secessionists."
Wow. And I thought for sure that it'd be Michael who would say the most ignorant thing in the thread. Bravo for proving me wrong on that while at the same time reinforcing the point that liberals don't give a rat's ass about the Constitution and have no comprehension at all off history. You managed a failure trifecta in one comment! Carry on embarrassing yourself.
alpha -
You haven't addressed anything. You're lying. There is no strawman: Davis didn't receive any money in any way, shape or form.
Show me the check. Show me the deposit slip. There is none. This is a "story" made up out of thin air to try to distract from the damage being done by the McCain campaign highlighting just how many Democrats - Obama especially - had their hands caught in the cookie jar.
No matter how many times you repeat the lie, it doesn't stop being a lie. You're a liar for repeating it. Now, go away and peddle your Axelrod talking points to someone else...No one here is buying...
(Except, of course, UWS. But he admitted yesterday that he's already willing to do whatever it takes to get Obama elected no matter what. So he's not exactly the target audience for your AstroTurfing.)
Dear American:
I need to ask you to support an urgent secret business relationship with a transfer of funds of great magnitude.
I am Ministry of the Treasury of the Republic of America. My country has had crisis that has caused the need for large transfer of funds of 800 billion dollars US. If you would assist me in this transfer, it would be most profitable to you.
I am working with Mr. Phil Gram, lobbyist for UBS, who will be my replacement as Ministry of the Treasury in January. As a Senator, you may know him as the leader of the American banking deregulation movement in the 1990s. This transactin is 100% safe.
This is a matter of great urgency. We need a blank check. We need the funds as quickly as possible. We cannot directly transfer these funds in the names of our close friends because we are constantly under surveillance. My family lawyer advised me that I should look for a reliable and trustworthy person who will act as a next of kin so the funds can be transferred.
Please reply with all of your bank account, IRA and college fund account numbers and those of your children and grandchildren to wallstreetbailout@treasury.gov so that we may transfer your commission for this transaction. After I receive that information, I will respond with detailed information about safeguards that will be used to protect the funds.
Yours Faithfully Minister of Treasury Paulson
LOL, the stink of fear.
Nah. The stink of weird. I don't know man, can't think of any other words. Weird. It doesn't seem genuine to me.
forgot what website I saw that on.
junior got schooled. again.
ummmm...running away from a debate is being pro-active?
McCain is a clever bastard.
His move will get more and more MSM face time for many of the Dem figureheads in Congress including Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, etc. Everytime one of them is on TV, McCain gains votes!
Plus the MSM will go nuts and will villify his move. That gets him boatloads of votes too.
What a clever clever bastard!
cheap political theater
UWS guy said...
So now John McCain is jesus? He dies so that we can have everlasting life Vspurs?
ROFLMAO
Oh and off-topic, Davis is still a partner and equity-holder in Davis Manafort.
Jim, You throw the term "liar" out there all the time but provide absolutely no objective evidence to support your claim.
I'll rely on my references, but why not provide any evidence the NYT's (or Newsweek, who confirms the story) is in error?
And, as another poster here and I have discussed, if it is not true, why is Davis not filing a libel suit agasint the Times?
You constantly talk, but never back anything up with facts...just as you threw out some silly comment about something you say I posted about 401K's.
I have no idea what you're talking about, and I have the feeling you don't either.
*As for the the 401K's, pensions, insurance, etc. being at risk because of the current crisis...you can bet your ass they are.
Stickup man Henry Paulson: Quick! Hand over $700 billion or I start the economic doomsday machine.
Taxpayer Jack Benny: I'm thinking...I'm thinking...
Jim, why do you continue calling people "liars??"
There is ample documentation of Davis being paid, and that he is indeed an equity-holder, even if he is "on leave." There are also plenty of sources that could be sued into the ground if they made it up out of whole cloth.
Your arguments are just not credible and make you look foolish.
UWS
Professional firms often keep the names even after partners leave.
Here's an example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulbright_&_Jaworski
You are an intentionally dishonest asshole. Or ignorant. Either way the only case closed is your trial-by-thread for Malicious Arseny: guilty.
One thing that grates by the pro-Obama crowd is that they push concepts that go against what was generally accepted as the truth about things when it becomes convenient.
It was generally accepted by all that McCain was willing to have a lot of debates. Obama declined. Now they want us all to believe that McCain is afraid to debate Obama. It just doesn't fly.
You can say rescheduling is a political stunt. Or, that you don't think McCain can contribute to the bailout debate in a worthwhile way. I disagree, but that at least is reasonable. You can argue that McCain wants to push the national security debate back to a time when such a debate will be politically relevant.
BUT you cannot reasonably argue that McCain is afraid of the debate itself. It undermines everything else you say and makes you look to be without intellectual honesty. It is a pathetic line of "reasoning" that says more about those putting it forward than McCain.
Michael said: Jim, You throw the term "liar" out there all the time but provide absolutely no objective evidence to support your claim.
I'm putting that one down in your permanent record too.
Pot.kettle.black
test
Lou Dobbs says this is our nation's chance to "Return to prudence". What does she look like?
Yeah Michael, one of us should go and debunk a NY Times well-sourced story which they got from two anonymous sources!
That is a great argument you made.
aj lynch, there weren't just two sources you idiot.
Read the entire article, and it's been confirmed via Newsweek, too.
You're a waste of time.
All your anonymous sources are belong to us.
chicken-boy: If somebody says something about me that is indeed a "lie" I'll certainly call them on it.
I just don't appreciate Jim constantly calling anybody with whom he disagrees as a "liar."
As for you, why are you addressing me anyway? Just ignore my comments entirely.
UWS - arguing that everything is in a name and that the name trumps actual facts is stupid for a supporter of Barack HUSSEIN Obama. I mean you wouldn't accept an argument the Barack's name is relevant - why do you push the idea that Davis's name on a company he no longer has an interest in does?
MadisonMan said: I think McCain is treading a very fine line here,
---
That's what you liberal weenies said when McCain chose Sarah Palin for his running mate.
Liberal weenies = slow learners
Alex said..."All your anonymous sources are belong to us."
WOW!
That's a keeper.
AGrad said...
UWS - arguing that everything is in a name and that the name trumps actual facts is stupid for a supporter of Barack HUSSEIN Obama. I mean you wouldn't accept an argument the Barack's name is relevant - why do you push the idea that Davis's name on a company he no longer has an interest in does?
John SYDNEY McCain. LMAO. He acts like a Sydney.
I believe in winning by any means necessary. Let Obama lose with his "honor".
Michael said...
Alex said..."All your anonymous sources are belong to us."
WOW!
That's a keeper.
5:11 PM
michael, I thought you were a sad geek, but I now realize you are just a babbling adolescent idiot. That phrase has been around "the interwebs" in one way or another for at least 8 years.
This says a lot about you. Is your wife real or is this an Oedipan invention?
Michael:
I've been saying that "Davis has been paid," too. However, I don't think we have evidence that he was paid this year. And the NYT story did not say that.
The NYT story said Rick Davis' firm was paid as late as last month and because of Davis' ties to McCain. We need to make sure we keep the point as accurate as possible.
Jim has said that Davis dropped his equity stake in the firm. Not even the McCain campaign is saying that, from what I've seen. So Jim's got his facts wrong.
Here's the title of the NYT story:
McCain Aide’s Firm Was Paid by Freddie Mac
And, they also mention:
* "Mr. Davis was hired as a consultant, not a lobbyist, the officials said. Davis & Manafort in recent years has filed federal lobbying reports for a number of companies but not Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae."
* "At least two other people associated with Mr. McCain have ties to either Freddie Mac. The lobbying firm of the Republican that Mr. McCain has enlisted to plan his transition to the White House should he be elected, William Timmons Sr., earned nearly $3 million from Freddie Mac between 2000 and its seizure, federal lobbying records show. Mr. Timmons is founder of Timmons & Co., one of Washington’s best-known lobbying shops. The payments were first reported by Bloomberg News."
(This has not been denied by the McCain campaign, to my knowledge).
Now, Jim, how about you drop the insults and stick to an argument on the facts?
harwood, can I assume you're not aware of the latest polling related to Queen Sarah?
On 9/11 she carried an approval rating of 52% with a disapprovsal rating of 35%
On 9/18 she carries an approval rating of 42% and a disapproval rating of 46%
Alpha, the firm is being paid and Davis is an equity-holder.
Just because they don't send him a check every week, he'll still get the dough wen he returns to the firm.
Again, the point is this: Why is McCain out screaming about Freddie if Davis has a firm that is being paid by them?
From TNR:
That's true, but the NYT story doesn't allege that Davis was a lobbyist for Freddie Mac. Rather, the NYT reports that he was a "consultant." And that's actually a crucial--and, in this instance, damning--distinction, since, by serving as a consultant rather than as a lobbyist for Freddie Mac, Davis's firm didn't have to disclose its payments from Freddie Mac in federal lobbying reports (which is why we didn't know about them until some ticked-off Fannie and Freddie folks revealed them to the Times). In other words, it looks as if Davis was almost trying to hide the fact that he was getting paid by Freddie Mac.
Good point.
erniecu73: Uhhhhh, that's why I said it was a real "keeper."
Duh.
Here's one you might want to remember: Far out.
Do you realize that no one has used the word 'hootenanny' on the Althouse blog, ever?
Just trying to break the tension a bit........
Oh give it up, Gene.
MadisonMan said...
Yes, more cooks is certainly what is needed in Washington as the save-Wall-Street's-Ass broth is tended to.
I'll repeat my purple pod prose here: McCain and Obama are not on the Senate Banking Committee -- so why are they needed?
Why are McCain and Obama needed? Because despite Barney Franks saying both are "outsiders" to Barney's precious committee, one of them will be President in under 4 months and expected to make regulatory appointments that will keep a better eye on Barney, Chris Dodd, the Wall Street financiers and brokers.
Both Obama and McCain should be working with the Senate and the Bush Executive in this tremendous crisis. IF they think they can be influential with other leaders.
===============
Michael said...
Does McCain own a TV or a cell phone?
Does Michael own an American flag?
=====================
AGrad: Do you actually believe Davis does not hold an interest in the company...and will never receive any part of the $15,000 a month paid via Freddie...because he took a "leave of absence??"
Really?
michael sez:
Alpha, the firm is being paid and Davis is an equity-holder.
I agree with everything you say. But we need to hew to the facts we have to make the strongest arguments possible.
I don't doubt that Davis profits sooner or later from the Fannie Mae contracts. But I don't know that for a fact, though I strongly suspect it.
bottom line: McCain's campaign and transition team is filled with key government relations people for Fannie Mae. This fact stands. McCain is posing as a populist while his government is being planned by special interests to the financial industry. John McCain is full of shit.
His campaign has run into a ditch so it's a good time for him to suspend it. Not so much for the nation.
Did you know that Freddie Mac was originally supposed to be called Jimmie Macuntil Martha Reeves objected?
True dat.
German valise is rolling and the super-jeanyuses are out in force.
Where do they come from?
And, say, GV, are you going to tell us today about how the railroad retirement board is a means of production? Are you going to tell us about Obama's pressers?
Guess not. The scandal du jour takes precedence for all twats.
To be honest the Davis point is a cheap one. I certainly wouldn't turn down 15k dollars a month to grant my access to a presidential campaign.
But it is fun to make political points from it.
But it is fun to make political points from it.
And that's what's vital.
Obama had better hightail it back to DC. He is on the Senate Banking Committe, you know.
Then and Now
2003:
Mr Buffett argues that such highly complex financial instruments [used by hedge funds] are time bombs and "financial weapons of mass destruction" that could harm not only their buyers and sellers, but the whole economic system.
Derivatives are financial instruments that allow investors to speculate on the future price of, for example, commodities or shares - without buying the underlying investment. Derivatives like futures, options and swaps were developed to allow investors hedge risks in financial markets - in effect buy insurance against market movements -, but have quickly become a means of investment in their own right.Outstanding derivatives contracts - excluding those traded on exchanges such as the International Petroleum Exchange - are worth close to $85 trillion, according to the International Swaps and Derivatives Association.
Some derivatives contracts, Mr Buffett says, appear to have been devised by "madmen".
Mr Buffett compares the derivatives business to "hell... easy to enter and almost impossible to exit", and predicts that it will take years to unwind the complex deals struck by its subsidiary General Re Securities.
Tuesday, Sept. 23, 2008:
Hedge funds could have an unprecedented level of cash pulled out by investors this quarter, according to insiders, just as they faced millions of pounds of losses from last week's shock regulation of short selling. It has been a tough year for the industry with high-profile funds blowing up, clients increasing redemptions, as well as public fury over short selling and increased threats of regulation.
The group's "imploded funds" list has hit 51 companies since the sub-prime mortgage crisis in the United States kicked off a widespread downturn. That compares with its historical list, stretching back more than a decade to the end of 2006, of just 14, including the collapse of Long-Term Capital Management and Amaranth.
This year, big names including Peloton Capital Partners, Carlyle Capital Corporation and Dillon Read Capital Management are just some of the half century to collapse. "We think hedge funds have largely lost their way," HFI said. "Notably, most have abandoned capital-preservation for the goal of aggressive accumulation of capital gains, with the benefit of lax regulation and extreme leverage available to exploit."
The redemptions seem to have started in earnest, although currently the evidence is mainly anecdotal. One UK hedge fund manager confided that last week had the highest number of investors rushing to withdraw funds that he has known. The industry will know for sure whether it is a drip or a deluge when the data providers release their statistics for the third quarter, next month. One market analyst said: "I know even the good hedge funds have been suffering withdrawals recently. Investors are very nervous."
----
This was all in a Stanley Kubrick movie...
"We'll all meet again......!"
Obama is looking at the plastic band on his wrist:
WWAD?
What would Alinsky do?
(or Ayers; lo mismo)
Michael said...
"can I assume you're not aware of the latest polling related to Queen Sarah? On 9/11 she carried an approval rating of 52% with a disapprovsal rating of 35%. On 9/18 she carries an approval rating of 42% and a disapproval rating of 46%."
And today, 52% over 42%, which is better than Biden. 9/18 isn't "the latest polling," so it's not exactly a lie as a material omission.
Wow, the sock puppetry abilities are truly outstanding.
Their (his?) arguments remind me of an old communist slogan in Cuba back in the '80s: "We will turn every defeat into a victory". And they meant it.
As much you keep repeating the charge, you have not been able to prove it. Show me, beyond any reasonable doubt, proof that this guy was indeed in a lobbying firm's payroll until 2008.
UWS guy said...
To be honest the Davis point is a cheap one. I certainly wouldn't turn down 15k dollars a month to grant my access to a presidential campaign.
But it is fun to make political points from it.
5:30 PM
You are honest and sane. I applaud you.
Cedar-Head: "Does Michael own an American flag?" (Actually we have a number of them. My wife's father and my brother-in-law were full bird colonels, the brother-in-law was at the Pentagon on 9/11, and he currently serves in a position at Homeland Security.)
I wondered how long it would take before one of the wingnuts would throw out the oh, you're just an unpatriotic, un-American, America hating liberal tripe because I believe McCain's sudden change of tact is nothing more than political pandering so he can avoid the debate.
Of course, yesterday he was more interested in solar panels so I guess something huge must have entered the fray.
Hey!!
Maybe it was his plummeting in the latest polls...ya think??
"$20 loaves of bread" ??!! God forbid. If that's what we're facing, seems to me there's no such thing as an overreaction. All our venerable "leaders" ought to be pissing in their pants right now, and doing every thing they can to fix this mess.
Why don't Cedarford and German Valise go and make sweet love somewhere?
McCain held a meeting today with 'Lady Lynn Forester de Rothschild, the expat international financier who once supported Hillary Clinton but now is supporting McCain because she thinks Obama is "elitist".'
I think this gives the lie to his claim that he's on an emergency footing.
p.s. Ernie, you have mischaracterized the charge. See my posts above. Davis' firm was on the Fannie Mae payroll until last month. Undisputed. The head of John McCain's transition team was on the payroll.
winger shave disputed unrelated things, but not these things.
All our venerable "leaders" ought to be pissing in their pants right now
They are.
erniecu73: Do YOU believe Davis will never see a dime of the $15,000 a month payments? Do YOU believe he was completely separated from the company? Do YOU believe he was up front with McCain about his position with the company?
Why can't you ever just accept it for what it is: Davis knew full well his company was receiving money from the very company McCain was railing against.
Get over it.
seven, do you even know what a valise is?
And if so...do you see how creepy your infatuation is?
The firm has his fucking name on it.
case closed.
Sure. That's the ticket. Because everyone knows that when your burger tastes funny you can always ask for Mr. McDonald behind the counter.
Davis' firm was on the Fannie Mae payroll until last month.
Except it hasn't been Davis' firm for years.
Barack Obama, on the other hand, was on the Fannie Mae payroll until... oh wait, he still is. Hasn't returned that dirty money yet. :)
michael and alpha -
The statement from the McCain campaign:
In fact, the allegation is demonstrably false. As has been previously reported, Mr. Davis separated from his consulting firm, Davis Manafort, in 2006. As has been previously reported, Mr. Davis has seen no income from Davis Manafort since 2006. Zero. Mr. Davis has received no salary or compensation since 2006. Mr. Davis has received no profit or partner distributions from that firm on any basis -- weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, bi-monthly, quarterly, semi-annual or annual -- since 2006. Again, zero. Neither has Mr. Davis received any equity in the firm based on profits derived since his financial separation from Davis Manafort in 2006.
Get that? No money. No equity. No nothing.
You want to know why I call you liars when we "disagree"? Because when we disagree it's usually because you're lying. As the old saying goes, "You're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts."
When Axelrod and his empty suit frontman Obama get back to you the new set of talking points, let me know...Until then, tell those clowns this one was an EPIC FAIL.
Simon, I know the polls swing wildly from day to day, but I'll take my chances with the polling, even from Rasmussen, for Biden.
Why?
Well, he's been around a long, long time and if there was something that was going to turn people off about him...we'd certainly knaow about it by now.
As for Palin...WHERE IS THE WOMAN???
Why won't McCain let her answer questions from the press?
I consider this to be a real blunder on his part because the longer she's hiding out the more people will wonder why.
*I've asked this before, but I'll give it another shot: Name another candidate who has gone this long from nomination without facing the press corp?
Jim, your sourcing is: "...the McCain campaign"???
And as for Davis being paid, do you familiar with the term: "escrow?"
Do you really believe this money is being paid into a company Davis is listed as a equity-holder in...and that he will never see a dime of it?
The other parties can just spend it, without paying him his share?
C'mon...
Revenant said..."Except it hasn't been Davis' firm for years."
No, he's just on a "leave of absence."
*Don't you wonder why, if "it hasn't been Davis' firm for years"...the name of the firm is:
DAVIS & MANAFORT??
What, they just love the guy's name so much they kept it? They already had so much stationary printed? Business cards?
michael -
Your position has gone from "he's getting paid" to "he's getting equity" to "it's in escrow." Which is it? Is he collecting checks like you said in the beginning or is there some secret escrow account somewhere that he'll collect at a later date? If it's in escrow, where is it being held? What institution? Why did the NYT not do the basic homework of actually verifying the story instead of running with an anonymously sourced hit job?
You can't answer these questions because there's no there, there. It's a complete falsehood which you have to keep adding additional levels of conspiracy theory to in order to keep it afloat. Does fire melt steel? Was 9/11 an inside job? Where does your lunacy end?
You keep retreating and retreating, but you never have the courage to admit that the story was a lie and despite knowing it was a lie, you continued to repeat it. That makes you both a coward and a liar.
Even when you are demonstrably proven wrong, you just change your story. You want to know why I, and others, consider you dishonest? Because you quite obviously are...
revenant -
You'll have to forgive michael. He pretty much has absolutely zero clue about the business. According to his theory, both Hewlitt and Packard still own HP...
It takes a special kind of cluelessness to be michael: you've got to hand it to him...He's just that kind of special...
Obama early on proposed jointly meeting the GOP candidate before the people several times throughout the summer and fall. In response, McCain offered to have 10 or so townhall style meetings/debates. Obama chose to paint his ass white and run with the antelopes.
For the Obama team to now seek haymaking opportunities on the count that McCain is the guy "ducking debate" is one of the funniest things I've heard this week. Thanks again for reinforcing the sense of projection I get everytime Obama or his royal teabaggers open their mouths.
Michael said...
As for Palin...WHERE IS THE WOMAN???
Why won't McCain let her answer questions from the press?
Lest we forget....
Tuesday, March 4th 2008, 1:51 AM
SAN ANTONIO, Tex. - An exasperated Barack Obama scurried away Monday from the toughest news conference of his campaign, telling reporters who kept shouting questions that he'd spent enough time on the grill.
"Come on! I just answered, like, eight questions," Obama, looking surprised, told shouting reporters as he fled the room. "We're running late."
@Laura:
"John McCain should have talked this out with Obama first."
Will that work out? I guess not. If I am Barack I woudn't give CREDIT to McCain for "initiating" (a.k.a leading) this dramatic stunt. At the current state of the dirtiest campaign in history, it is so naive to think it that way.
The only way this will work out is to: Vote in congress and proceed with the debate as planned. Supending the capaign is purely drama.
drill sgt. -
Don't forget that sometimes Obama is too busy with his waffles to answer questions: "Can't I just eat my waffles?"...Some things are just more important...
He's suspending his campaign? Great! Maybe he'll endorse Romney! Let's get a different nominee if this one doesn't feel like running or debating.
I just heard about this, but I'm very mad at McCain for this little stunt. I don't see this as good leadership at all. I see this as a way of sneakily trying to get way more power than he's entitled to in a way that reminds me of Bush. If you don't wanna run, get out of the race. You can't talk for a couple hours if there's something going on in the world? Then that disqualifies you from the Presidency!
The reality is that he's doing this because he realized he is in a terrible position going into a debate with Obama. The financial crisis is turning most people away from McCain's economic platform, and he needs to go somewhere and restructure his campaign. It's not about saving the economy, it's about his not being ready to debate.
I'm not happy.
revenant - You'll have to forgive michael.
I probably would, if I read anything he posted. :)
"I see this as a way of sneakily trying to get way more power than he's entitled to in a way that reminds me of Bush. If you don't wanna run, get out of the race."
Yes, that sneaky John McCain! It's like he's a senator or something!
I just heard about this, but I'm very mad at McCain for this little stunt.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you weren't even considering voting for the guy. What difference does it make to him if he makes you mad? I mean, what are you going to do, vote for Obama twice? :)
"It's my belief that this is exactly the time when the American people need to hear from the person who in approximately 40 days will be responsible for dealing with this mess," Obama said in a news conference in Clearwater, Fla. "It's going to be part of the president's job to deal with more than one thing at once."
* * *
Has anyone told the braniac that it's approximately 118 days?
The reality is that he's doing this because he realized he is in a terrible position going into a debate with Obama.
That is one of the dumbest assessments I've ever heard. The debate is on foreign policy. McCain has no problem there. Come on people, come up with better bullshit analysis.
christopher -
It's nice that you're inside the decision loop at McCain HQ and can presume to speak for them. However, in the real world, things are a little different than you see them through your partisan eyes.
Suspending electioneering in order to deal with a crisis is what I would expect a serious leader to do. You really think that it is so vitally important that another stump speech be given rather than have the crisis dealt with? Really?
Has McCain said he won't show up tomorrow night? He said he'd like it postponed, which would actually make some sense given the gravity of the situation. I mean, both Obama and McCain are senators. This is what they get paid to do. Obama may not want to show up for work, but criticizing McCain for deciding to give up a little pomp and circumstance to do what he is paid to do and what said just yesterday that he needed to do just shows your partisan colors. Maybe you thought McCain wouldn't call their bluff: but now that he has, you're "mad" at him? C'mon, now...
It's pretty obvious that the only reason you're "mad at McCain" is because Obama didn't think of it first....
"The reality is that he's doing this because he realized he is in a terrible position going into a debate with Obama..."
a known master of economics with plentiful executive experience to back it up...
"The financial crisis is turning most people away from McCain's economic platform..."
Yes, sadly you're right on this point. It's even driving Republicans away from a sensible economic platform into the soft, snuggly, money-padded arms of socialism.
correction: what "Democrats said he needed to do"...
"$20 loaves of bread" ??!! God forbid. If that's what we're facing, seems to me there's no such thing as an overreaction. All our venerable "leaders" ought to be pissing in their pants right now, and doing every thing they can to fix this mess.
What a load of shit. At worse, we are facing a deflationary cycle, not an inflationary cycle UNLESS the government throws $700 billion into the economy. (In truth, the economy in general is humming along quite well, thank you, and until the politicians can explain exactly how pumping close to a trillion dollars into the economy isn't going to result in high inflation, it's best we steer clear of banana republic economics.)
LOL...I just thought of something which adds an extra layer of brilliance to the McCain strategy.
He asked to have the debate delayed. Obama, predictably said, we should debate.
Which turned out the typical Leftist attack artists claiming that "McCain is scared of a debate...yada yada yada."
But McCain will obviously show up at the debate...reluctantly, to be sure. On a topic on which he is the acknowledged master...he's begging Obama not to throw him into that briar patch while Obama and his supporters are insistent on doing just that.
Oh, Brer Rabbit, you sly dog...
Why would Obama be secretly envious that McCain came up with a lameass idea? The economy will survive the debate going on as scheduled. What a dramatic but useless gesture.
Has anyone told the braniac that it's approximately 118 days?
It reminds me of back during the Florida debacle of 2000. A reporter breathlessly asked some "man on the street" type "does it worry you that we don't have a President?"
The guy replied "Bill Clinton is the President".
beth -
The Democratic party didn't think it was useless yesterday when they insisted that McCain had to be part of the bailout negotiations. Now because it makes Obama look like the lightweight that he is because McCain called them out on it by actually returning to be there, suddenly all the partisans say it's a "useless gesture."?
You need to get your story straight...Talk about not coordinating your message. Maybe Obama should be coordinating better with his party rather than trying to arrogantly go it alone. So were the Democrats lying today or are they lying now? Which is it?
Christopher--
It is good that you are angry at Sen. McCain.
A leader is someone who has the courage to get out in front and is willing to take an arrow in the back.
He's been in the Senate for 22 years. Maybe that means he's more of the problem than Sen. Obama. Maybe it also means that when he sits down at the table he commands more respect from both parties.
Sure, it's part stunt, but we need more adult leadership faster.
Ready. Fire. Aim.
--
Not sure where the $20 bread loaves was first mentioned. I bought a crummy pair of socks last week for $11.82, and I felt like a fool. The government's just redesigned the penny. Shops don't want them, and my kids leave nickels, dimes, and quarters on the floor because it takes a dollar to buy a candy bar. Night in the Holiday Inn Express in mid-town Manhattan? $500. Order a pizza delivered? It's clearly got less sauce and meat on it. I was in a crafts shop today...saw small bags of polished river rocks selling for $2.99. For rocks! A little bag of a dozen screws at Home Depot? $1.99. Screwed up.
"$20 loaves of bread" ??!! God forbid. If that's what we're facing, seems to me there's no such thing as an overreaction. All our venerable "leaders" ought to be pissing in their pants right now, and doing every thing they can to fix this mess.
Knox. Last Wed when the MMKT funds started breaking the buck and short term treasuries were in negative yeild territory and I couldn't sell AAA 90 day commercial paper our from a client's account because there were NO buyers, none at any price, and all trading had stopped on those types of securities, I knew the end was near of life as we know it in the US today.
However, when the Fed stepped in and said they would shore up MMKT funds the bleeding stopped.....for a while. For a while.
Unless they do this thing right, without a bunch of partisan clowns trying to lard up the bill and continuing to give away the farm in the name of diversity and political correctness, we can expect the dollar to crash. Not decline....crash. We will be looking at hyper inflation like likes of which we haven't seen in a century. We are talking Zimbabwe level inflation. Third world collapsing of the US economy and most of the World Economy.
This is so serious and the junviille lefty retards on this board and the idiots in Congress want to play politics with the economic future for the next 20 years just to score some points today.
Are they pissing their pants? You bet and more than that. The Angel of Death has flown over Wall Street and if we don't take care of this, he will land right on your doorstep.
jim, they got airplanes and big cars to get them from Washington to Oxford. They can both do their senatorial duties AND debate on Friday. It's not like Obama and Mr. Drama are gonna be hanging out all day down at the Oxford town square, eating donuts and checking their watches.
It is of course a common practice for firms to retain the names of founding partners even when not one member of the family remains with the firm. Thus there are currently no Goldman’s, Sachs, or Lehman’s working with their respective firms. Anyone with a teaspoon of knowledge about current practices would be aware of this fact.
We are extremely lucky to have one of the Howard’s posting here at Althouse. Michael has all the leadership of Moe and the good humor of Shemp with the hair style of their cousin Larry.
We are indeed lucky.
revenant: You're either confusing me with my brother John or you're basing that off some stereotype. Nearly every time I've commented on here recently it's been to criticize Obama, and I've been generally favoring McCain until now.
DBQ,
I wish it was just the leftards. There are altogether too many conservatives who don't get how serious this is either.
revenant: You're either confusing me with my brother John or you're basing that off some stereotype.
My mistake, I did confuse you with your brother.
Christopher Althouse Cohen said...
revenant: You're either confusing me with my brother John
Revenant as I remember the scorecard:
JAC is the Bambi lover
CAC caucused for Hillary
The left is in full bs mode today, as they can't wrap their head around McCain's brilliant fake-out. McCain has already slam-dunked with Obama still scrambling around wondering what just happened.
A completely meaningless poll by SurveyUSA:
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReportEmail.aspx?g=54d651a7-a62b-4420-bb32-9dd6b2df8c02
But I'm sure the left will find a way to spin it, that's what they're so good at.
Shorter Ann Althouse:
McCain's quick moves exposed Obama as the dithering pussy that he is, but I will not let it effect me.
I am cruelly neutral.
This is so serious and the junviille lefty retards on this board and the idiots in Congress want to play politics with the economic future for the next 20 years just to score some points today.
I say letting these fuckers wither on the vine and DIE. Free market captialism will always correct itself. I have no money invested in these idiots and their idiotic pyramid schemes, why should I have to pay for their fuckups? I pay cash for vehicles, own a modest mortgage, tend to a monsterous garden -- I had venison spaghetti for dinner tonight. As long as they don't get stupid and start printing a shitload of worthless money and start taxing the super rich instead, I'll gurantee you I'll be fine. I know this wouldn't help your clients, but then again I'm not one of them so I do not care in the slightest.
Ann will always maintain cruel neutrality, even when the universe is ending. Gotta hand it to her.
Chis A. Cohen -- I don't know how McCain's move could upset you. He is legitimately trying to solve a problem.
Let's ask why.
Well, it could be empty political gamesmanship. That's what the left sees. That's all they ever see. They merely applaud it when it comes from their side. UWS admitted this today.
It could also be that McCain see that this is a serious problem that needs serious legislation.
It could also be that McCain realizes that the economy will be the albatross on his neck that he cannot shake unless he can turn it around.
It could be some combination. Any way you slice it, though, what's your beef?
seven - the simplest explanation usually suffices. But it's never enough for the left that always sees conspiracies and machinations. I honestly believe McCain is doing is duty here and not political posturing.
I say letting these fuckers wither on the vine and DIE.
Fine with me, too---except that we're interconnected a bit too much for my taste. That means, when they die, a lot of responsible folks who pay their mortgages reliably and live within their means are gonna get fucked, too. That part I'm not looking forward to.
I know it's probably not possible to achieve this perfectly, but a bailout plan that trades away the minimum moral hazard without causing a serious financial meltdown is what I'm looking for. I don't see it yet though.
We're not going to see Zimbabwe level inflation without absurd regulation. However, pumping the economy with a trillion federal dollars could, possibly, cause some inflation.
"I say letting these fuckers wither on the vine and DIE. Free market captialism will always correct itself. I have no money invested in these idiots and their idiotic pyramid schemes, why should I have to pay for their fuckups? I pay cash for vehicles, own a modest mortgage, tend to a monsterous garden -- I had venison spaghetti for dinner tonight. As long as they don't get stupid and start printing a shitload of worthless money and start taxing the super rich instead, I'll gurantee you I'll be fine. I know this wouldn't help your clients, but then again I'm not one of them so I do not care in the slightest."
You are an idiot. If you have a job in a hyperinflated economy, you will lose it and then how will you pay your mortgage. If you say Social Security income, bend over and kiss that goodbye. The government will suspend all entitlement programs and be struggling just to keep the lights on.
That vehicle you pay cash for will not be available because no one will be manufacturing new ones and the dollar today that you buy a used car for $5000, well..... plan on spending $5,000,000 for a car. Better stock up on bullets because they are going to be sky high if available at all. Milk at $500 a gallon. Gasoline...you think 4.00 a gallon is high try $400 if there is any available. Millions of people will lose everything and millions upon millions will be homeless. War and conflict on a world wide stage will become a certainty.
Better get a nicer personality, because if this happens you will be on the barter system.
You think this is funny and want to "stick it to the man" or make some political points because you hate Bush. You are a complete blind fool. Think it can't happen. Take a look at Argentina, Romania not to mention Austria and Germany pre WWII. Hitler's rise and WWII can be directly atributed to the hyperinflation at that time.
History....doomed to repeat it because idiots like garage refuse to learn it.
Hopefully I won't have to say I told you so. However, if it comes to this, the internet and all this foolishness will be just a fond memory.
dust bunny queen:
Now come on, don't hold back.
Remember how pissed off liberals were back in 1980 when Congress approved a $1.5 billion bailout of Chrysler?
Me too. Which is one of the reasons why I find it astonishing that today, in the midst of the hand-wringing and delays over the agreed-as-necessary-and-urgent $700 billion to fix the subprime mess, Congress quietly approved a $25 billion bailout of the big three automakers and their suppliers.
Nothing quite so urgent as cementing the UAW voting base, even in the midst of an emergency.
DBQ -- Help me out here. How is the fact that the economy is not growing and banks are not lending money going to cause inflation? I don't doubt that there is a serious problem but I think you are 100 percent wrong about the potential results.
Pumping money into an economy causes inflation. Virtually everyone agrees with that. Ergo, talking money out causes...?
P.S. -- In a hyper-inflated economy, my mortgage is awesome because it's a constant payment each month.
What am I missing here? I am not being facetious.
The right-wing welfare queens shoud just calm the eff down. You will get your government checks with lots and lots of strings attached.
However, it won't work. The country must accept the pain and hopefully learn what deregulation wreaks on a country and it's economy.
You are buying maybe three months at most. The crash is UNAVOIDABLE. But the right-wing babies want a few more months so they can win an election. Pathetic.
The crash is UNAVOIDABLE.
Ahh, the rapture of the Marxists.
"With thoughts like these I will challenge you to an I.Q. test any day."
During the VP debate, this will be Joe Biden's reply to every question..
Seven Machos - Where do you think the $700 billion will come from?
The money will be printed, or electronically injected into the banking system. It will result in inflation, perhaps hyper inflation. For an example, see the Carter administration's efforts to increase the money supply which resulted in inflation rates of >13%. This was cured during the first two years of the Reagan administration when the Fed was ordered to reduce the money supply.
Part two of hyper inflation is the effect that an abundance of fresh new dollars will have on the price of oil. Dollars will be worth less, sot he price of oil will rise to compensate. the increase in oil cost will run through the economy, also leading to more inflation.
integrity said...
The right-wing welfare queens should just calm the eff down.
Now, THAT'S funny!
Seven Machos said...
The crash is UNAVOIDABLE.
Ahh, the rapture of the Marxists.
No, a realistic capitalist. Capitalism only works with enforced regulation to keep all the players honorable.
Credit is dying because none of the lenders trust one another. Regulation evens the playing field and allows for trust between capitalists.
Regulated capitalism works completely.
I pay cash for vehicles, own a modest mortgage, tend to a monsterous garden -- I had venison spaghetti for dinner tonight.
You don't get it. This isn't about personal debt or expenditure.
All business and all governments rely on short-term borrowing to cover day to day costs. When they can't borrow, they stop paying their employees until the next big sale/big tax payment comes through. The problem is that the poison from the housing market has tainted the entire lending sector. If that collapses, your job will quite probably go with it, no matter how frugal and cash-focused you are.
I'm not sure why it's confusing that I would be against what McCain is doing, but it's basically that I don't approve of a presidential candidate using the stopping of the debate as a political stunt. If Obama said, "I'm not debating until Bush agrees to bring our troops home," I would think that demonstrated extremely poor judgement, it would be a manipulative (and ineffective) way of trying to attain extra power, and I would think it was pathetic to make a stunt out of not debating. If you're good enough to be President, you need to demonstrate that through the debate. If you can't handle debating for two hours when there's a financial situation, how are you going to handle the same financial situation while you're also managing two wars and various threats in the Middle East? And if you wanna turn that question into an Obama stump speech, slap on a list of other things the next President needs to handle.
Furthermore, the best thing either of these two guys can do for the economy is tell US what they would do NOW in this debate and explain what their judgement call would be in this time, so we can decide who has the best judgement in a crisis (if this really is such a crisis). This debate, right now, is the test, and the winner will determine how things go for the next four years. McCain is just opting out, and it's a cowardly move. It's a way of taking time off and waiting for everything to settle before taking on the issue in a serious way.
If you aren't ready to run for President, you aren't ready to be President. He should step aside and let Romney (or Palin) be the nominee.
If I were the fed, and a trillion dollars got pumped into the economy, I would raise interest rates by a few percentage points. That would ease inflation and it's something that needs to be done, anyway, though it certainly won't help the economy in the short-term but it's the only way to prop up the ailing dollar.
As far as all this hyper-inflation talk: DBQ, I really do think you are wrong. If banks fail and stocks plummet, I expect to see deflation.
Let me add a few details.
That car you paid cash for? The gas station you fill it up at relies on a line of credit to buy the gas it sells you. Credit dries up and you either pay a hell of a lot more for gas (thanks to the interest rates being passed to you) or can't buy gas at all because the gas station can't buy any to sell you.
The supermarket you shop at? They rely on credit to purchase the food they're selling you. See above, re: higher prices or no food.
The job you've got? They borrow the money to pay you with against future revenue. Cut their line of credit and they stop paying you until that next sale comes in, after which the money you make gets paid out in chunks when they have revenue to disburse, rather than being paid to you regularly twice a month in fixed amounts. Good luck with that "sensible mortgage" when you're stuck waiting six months for the big account to go through -- especially with the whole economy in the worse recession in at least a century.
Is it *fair* that non-dipshits who neither bought a house they couldn't afford nor lent the previous dipshit the money to buy it are getting stuck paying for this mess? Of course it isn't fair. But we have to do it anyway because if we don't then *we'll* be fucked, too.
GE was downgraded today. That's General Electric. General Electric. Yikes.
I spoke this evening with an Dem relative. Her comments were interesting vis a vis the debate.
"My 401(k) has gone into the tank and I will need to work long past my retirement date as a result. I don't want to hear Barack Obama at the debate on Friday night talk about the problems in Farawayastan or his desire to have tea with one dictator or another. I want to hear him tell me what the hell he did this week to improve the economic mess Washington caused by Congress ignoring the toxic mess in Freddie and Fannie."
Since both of these guys are sitting Senators and the leaders of their parties, don't you think it might be a good idea that they both be directly involved in an extremely important decision that will have a tremendous effect on their Presidency. I mean if the United States had to go to War tomorrow with let's say China, shouldn't President Bush bring both of these guys in to get their input and ideas. So that they can work together for the good of the country. Aren't we all in this together?
Or is a debate schedule more important. Because you know when it rains during the World Series they just put the game off for a day or two.
I will say that this kind of reminds me of "Advise and Consent."
McCain's top guy just said he wants to postpone the VP debate also.
Trooper what does Sara Palin have to do with McCains job in the Senate?
michael-h's dem relative said:
My 401(k) has gone into the tank and I will need to work long past my retirement date as a result. I don't want to hear Barack Obama at the debate on Friday night talk about the problems in Farawayastan or his desire to have tea with one dictator or another. I want to hear him tell me what the hell he did this week to improve the economic mess Washington caused by Congress ignoring the toxic mess in Freddie and Fannie.
Words thought and spoken across the nation I'm sure. Thanks for sharing.
Better get a nicer personality, because if this happens you will be on the barter system.
I'm afraid this is as good as I get. Like I said as long as they dont try to print gobs of money the doomsday hyper-inflation scenario you describe shouldn't happen. I'm not in the DEPRESSION BY MONDAY camp, nor do I believe 700 billion given to a Rogue Trader is the best course of action. I could be wrong but I dont think I am. I think a contraction is necessary after 30 yrs of hoisting trillions of dollars of debt onto ourselves. It was a fake economy to begin with. What good would propping it up for another 5-8 yrs really do?
Garage is right. Oh my God. What is happening?
I know...it's freaky.
Well Garage, politicians serve at the whim of voters.
<----This voter is down 50k dollars in investments since dec. last year.
If they don't fix it, then someone else is getting Barbara Boxer's Job and she can go head the Ladies League or whatever old ladies do.
I cannot get over Barack Obama's arrogance at refusing to get to Washington and earn his paycheck.
It's a way of taking time off and waiting for everything to settle before taking on the issue in a serious way.
If your take on this one aspect of his opting out of the debate is accurate, absolutely he should stand down. I think he's lost the election with this move but maybe it's his way, consciously or unconsciously, of backing out of a situation where he knows he's in over his head.
He hasn't only opted out of the debate but he has suspended his campaign... whatever he means by that. I think he's breathing into a brown paper bag at this point.
Revenant said...When they can't borrow, they stop paying their employees until the next big sale/big tax payment comes through.
Backing up what Rev said, I am VP in a consulting firm, the term he hasn't used that applies is "line of credit". Our little firm has a 2 million dollar line of credit with our local bank to float payroll and grow. Most of the time it sits untouched. but it works like this. my staff worked the 1-16 of sept and turned in time cards. (web based). They get paid on the 1st of Oct for that work. However, we have not gotten paid or the work yet oreven invoiced. we use cash or our line of credit to pay salaries on the 1st, then invoice customers for Sept by around 10 Oct. HOWEVER, the FEDS may not pay for 30-90 days. in between we have an account receivable entry and use that line of credit to float salaries while we wait for the check that is in the mail.
point is, AR payments come in whenever, but payroll must be made on time, otherwise your employees leave and you go out of business, so you float a loan to stay afloat and grow. If the local bank has a balance sheet with these bad loans on them, it has to devalue its balance sheet, then can't afford to loan us and then we fire you or you quit because we missed your paycheck even though the customers owe us and will pay sometime.
then you have more time to spend in the garden amidst the snowdrifts and the economy grinds to a halt.
What, they just love the guy's name so much they kept it? They already had so much stationary printed? Business cards?
I'm sorry, but you are a total idiot. Please stop talking about anything with the word 'business' anywhere near it until you've gone to business school or cracked open a few books or something. LOTS of businesses retain names or people who no longer own them. I could supply a list a mile long. Please, shut up.
The Democratic party didn't think it was useless yesterday when they insisted that McCain had to be part of the bailout negotiations.
Ha! Excellent point. How could I have forgetten the Dem's refusing to make a decision that John McCain did not agree with. No wonder he thinks he needs to go.
DBQ, thank you for your comments (even though they are scary). I do believe it is vital that we get this right, which is why it seems quite frankly INSANE to me that people are acting like it is a problem that McCain wants to be in Washington right now. That is where he needs to be. It is his job. I don't care if they have the debate this friday, or next week, or two weeks from now. If people want to vote against McCain for that reason, that is up to them.
Or is a debate schedule more important. Because you know when it rains during the World Series they just put the game off for a day or two.
Just ask the the University of Mississippi who will be out $5.5 million if they think it's important. It's irresponsible to blow off a 90 minute debate. He can still do everything he want to do to show 'leadership' and still do the debate.
McCain will reluctantly do the debate. Hopefully, this has all been thought through.
trooper, you're posing a false dilemma. They don't have to be senators and deal with this crisis OR debate. They can do both, and ought to be able to.
Where does the $700B. come from? Borrowed from China?
Now McCain wants the Presidential debate on Monday night, in place of the VP Debate.
A more transparent political act is hard to imagine. They're terrified of Palin having to show the American people who she really is and what capacity she has to deal with issues.
The war hero is running away from a debate.
Just ask the the University of Mississippi who will be out $5.5 million if they think it's important. It's irresponsible to blow off a 90 minute debate.
That's an interesting priority.
michael said...
erniecu73: Do YOU believe Davis will never see a dime of the $15,000 a month payments? Do YOU believe he was completely separated from the company? Do YOU believe he was up front with McCain about his position with the company?
Why can't you ever just accept it for what it is: Davis knew full well his company was receiving money from the very company McCain was railing against.
Get over it.
The burden of proof is yours. Prove it to me, and I will believe your point.
They don't have to be senators and deal with this crisis OR debate. They can do both, and ought to be able to.
And yet neither of them is. McCain wants to deal with the crisis and not debate; Obama wants to debate and not deal with the crisis.
Alpha -- What do you have to offer? Insightful analysis? No.
If people wanted to read facts that percolate in far-left hothouses, they would.
You are useless.
seven machos said...
Alpha -- What do you have to offer? Insightful analysis? No.
If people wanted to read facts that percolate in far-left hothouses, they would.
You are useless.
8:45 PM
On the contrary, he's very useful. He and his foaming-at-the-mouth, I-really-hope-this-country-goes-to-shits, I-hate-the-world-because-I-have-no self-esteem rants, the irrationality of his "arguments", and the pure rabid insanity of it all; make the rest of humanity look much more rational by contrast. That gives me a lot of hope in the future of this planet.
Here's a quick glimpse of what happens when credit markets close.
One of the largest Chevy dealerships in the nation to close, a business dating back to 1911.
Now Maxine, please tell the hundreds of newly laid off employees how to barter for their mortgage payments and health insurance. Please.
"If people wanted to read facts that percolate in far-left hothouses, they would.
You are useless."
AlphaLiberal is the Althouse blog's left-wing RSS feed!
Here's additional information. Thirteen dealerships, all closing, $2 billion annual revenue. One of fifteen largest auto dealership companies in the country.
Among the reasons for closing: unavailability of floor plan new car inventory financing.
Please forgive me for not taking time to read through 399 comments.
I'll just quote anatarajan from the top: Neither Obama nor McCain can do anything much about this problem. If Obama had tried to postpone the debate, you wouldn't have approved, and most of your readers would have bashed him for it.
True indeed.
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