Says the NYT. McCain wasn't enclosed in a soundproof room when Rick Warren began asking Obama the questions he would later ask McCain. He was on his way to the forum. So what does this mean?
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Which came first, the legal term Cone of Silence or the Get Smart show?
Was the show simulcast so that McCain could have watched Obama's abysmal performance?
I doubt if McCain could have put himself together so hastily into such a solid performance.
I think listening to Obama would have made him worse because Obama's performance was so completely terrible in every possible way that after listening to it I doubt if McCain would have even been able to think clearly at all, and if he had, he would have had some zingers about Obama that clearly referred to the previous performance, esp. Obama's castigation of Clarence Thomas for being an affirmative action justice.
It was in the NYT? You mean that comic strip? Why would anyone give that credence. I am waiting for one of the nut jobs to demand McCain be tested for performance enhancing drugs; as he out performed Obama.
I doubt McCain cheated, but I don't think it would have mattered, and I didn't detect anything in any of McCain's answers that suggested prior knowledge of what Obama said. Nothing at the time or in retrospect seemed like a response to Obama.
Isn't this charge a tacit admission by Obama supporters that McCain's performance was superior? In that sense, it seems like a mistake.
My sense was that although Obama connected with that crowd surprisingly well, and earned applause, that McCain was sharper, clearer, and funnier.
If Obama supporters aren't yet worried about the debates, I think they should be. I don't think there's much of a chance that McCain will seem old, muddled or out of it, and Obama's slow, measured, sometimes halting style may not contrast well with McCain.
Oh come on. It's so painfully obviously (4).
I think the more likely answer: McCain didn't listen -- who has time? -- but some aides did and summarized how Obama did before McCain went on.
Who knows if he listened. But why did he mention in the debate that he was in the cone of silence when he wasn't?
While I agree with Simon, McCain should have been where he agreed to be. He wasn't. Whether advertising the fact and questioning McCain's honesty works to Obama's advantage remains to be seen.
If the CIA had good info (insert a good Chris Matthews "HA!") that was used to prevent an act of terrorism, could anyone seriously say they "cheated?" We're picking the Prez here, not scoring some junior high science fair.
If it was that big of an advantage to go second, why didn't the chosen one demand to go second? BO needs to shut up and move on. Whining about it just admits that he got his skinny butt kicked. If he didn't lose, why is complaining about an unfair advantage? Further, how is it that a man who is running for king of the world and can make the seas receed, can't look better than some 74 year old former torture victim?
This poll proves that most of Ann's readers are wingnuts.
NBC News (and even Ms. Mitchell) have not earned the right to be trusted when it comes to the 2008 Presidential race. In many ways, its entirely self inflicted. They have chosen to blur the lines.
This poll proves that most of Ann's readers are wingnuts.
There are probably only a few people who might qualify as a "wingnut" but it is true that the ratio of partisan Republicans to partisan Democrats posting comments here ranges somewhere between 3:1 and 7:1.
Would you believe temporarily deaf?
While I agree with Simon, McCain should have been where he agreed to be
Randy, where exactly did he "agree" to be?
I know, you can't provide anything, you're "just sayin'...
The option you omitted:
McCain didn't cheat, because the entire event was stupid.
I mean, c'mon... what was this supposed to be? A damn game show?
Randy said:
"While I agree with Simon, McCain should have been where he agreed to be. He wasn't. "
I agree with this 200%. His lateness and loaction outside the cone of silence throws the debate's fairness into question.
Also, options 3 and 4 are not mutually exclusive... ;-)
Would you believe
LOL.
Randy, AJ, it's irrelevant. The meme isn't being wheeled out to attack McCain's performance, it's being wheeled out to divert attention from Obama's poor performance. Even if it were true that McCain heard - or even could have heard - Obama's answers, that's basically irrelevant to the purpose of the meme.
I think that having Rick Warren out there calling people "liars" makes this all a wash.
In case this is just a distraction by the BHO campaign, isn't Althouse helping them?
Perhaps she could vow not to get sidetracked by meaningless issues and instead concentrate on things like the candidates' policies. Althouse is apparently familiar with legal issues, so perhaps she could compare and contrast McCain's and BHO's policies from an expert perspective.
I'll eagerly await that.
"Also, options 3 and 4 are not mutually exclusive... ;-)"
Actually, one could coherently believe 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. And if a "maybe" were added to #1, you could coherently believe them all.
The notable thing about the answers is that there are 5 pro-McCain options and only 1 pro-Obama option, which should strongly favor answer #1, since all the pro-Obama opinion could collect there. The best pro-Obama answer is actually: "Maybe McCain listened to the questions, but I don't care, it wouldn't have helped that much."
But I bet lots of Obama supporters would pick one of the other options, including Obama himself.
By what rubric does McCain secretly listening in make Obama's answers magically become lame? Solve that one and I'll sign onto McCain listened.
Simon:
I agree with you Obama was horrible and they are grabbing at straws but McCain should have been there. It casts reasonable doubt on McCain's superb performance.
What if the circumstances were reversed? and Obama went last, did great but arrived late?
This is a lot of whining from the guy that won his seat(s) by disenfranchising voters on syntactical trivialities.
But IIRC, Ann was cool with that; she wanted an Executive that could game the system or go for the jugular or something like that. What changed?
downtownlad said...
This poll proves that most of Ann's readers are wingnuts.
Wing nuts are rather useful devices. I would rather be assiciated with something uesful than to be called a nutroot; something that has no use what so ever.
It's not so much that Obama's answers became lame if McCain listened but that listening to His Articulateness made McCain's answers better.
Which is a backhanded way of saying they know Obama came up way short.
AJ: I'm glad someone agrees with me ;-). While I'm not positive, I imagine that we'd agree if the positions were reversed, too.
This whole issue is the equivalent of pole vaulting over a mouse turd--wont have any effect on the folks who don't arent blog fans, and wont change the minds of the NYT readers--In short, the viewers who watched the festivities will make their own judgments independent of charges of cheating. And charges of cheating, IMO, is a double loss for Obama--he got his ass kicked and now he looks like a sore loser. This guy is real lightweight.
What if the circumstances were reversed? and Obama went last, did great but arrived late?
And that's the way to look at this. McCain agreed to the rules and then casually broke them. You can have your opinion of how well Obama performed, but does anyone who has read this blog before believe for a second that Simon and others wouldn't be unmercilessly impugning Obama's character this morning if the situation was reversed.
I don't get the outrage that "McCain wasn't where he agreed to be." McCain agreed not to listen to Obama's interview. Does it really matter that much that he wasn't listening in the car, versus not listening in a room without TV?
Was the forum broadcast on the radio at all? Do motorcade cars typically get television reception? How was McCain supposed to have watched it in the motorcade? And does anyone really think that McCain, having given his word to Warren that he wouldn't listen to Obama's interview, would cheat? Why? What would he get out of it? It's absurd on its face.
But Obama's answers weren't lame. That to me is the biggest assumption of this whole "McCain listened" controversy.
Obama was good. For the setting he gave as good as answers as he could. This wasn't a San Francisco union meeting. He did a fine job.
McCain came out and didn't just have good answers, in fact his answers weren't different than whatever else we've heard from him. But he came out with passion, with strong communication skills and expressed his broad understanding.
Obama's complaints are making us assume Obama did bad and McCain was so incredibly, beyond natural ability, profound. That's the immediate impression and that's now also the spin, a spin the Obama campaign is curiously promoting.
Obama needs to be a new kind of politician and talk about his own answers and why they were in fact better. But he's not. He's admitted, conceding, the loss and complaining about the rules.
No one in the world cares about the rules. It's all convenience. How does someone respond no matter how the rules were or were not followed?
Obama is failing the biggest question of all, the one that Warren didn't even ask. And oddly enough, it's Obama who's is making everyone think of that.
McCain agreed to the rules and then casually broke them.
That's an inaccurate statement.
According one report I read, McCain was in transit for the first 30 minutes, and then in the Cone of Silence for 30 minutes. It seems to me that the "McCain listened and was therefore magically better" argument only could hold water if McCain was awesome for the first half of his hour and fell apart for the second half. But he was consistently excellent throughout, which suggests that either McCain didn't listen or it didn't help.
Invisible Man: Sorry, cut off this part of my response: WRT:
You can have your opinion of how well Obama performed, but does anyone who has read this blog before believe for a second that Simon and others wouldn't be unmercilessly impugning Obama's character this morning if the situation was reversed.
I'm sorry to say that you are probably right.
So is this what it comes to? That we decide whether McCain cheated by taking a poll? What happened to the days when we gathered evidence and studied it? Or am I showing my age?
What if the circumstances were reversed? and Obama went last, did great but arrived late?
It wouldn't have helped.
Without a script Obama is a doofus. It is why he won't do townhalls with McCain and why three debates are three too many.
He will be lucky to poll in the low 40s come November. And he will be taking more than a few Ds down with him.
If he does poorly enough it could swing Congress. You will note that a LOT of D candidates are edging away from The One.
I predict the little o will be causing a lot of fainting in Nov.
I am not saying McCain heard some questions beforehand just that his not being in this "cone of silence" is, at a minimum, misleading and unfair.
So is this what it comes to? That we decide whether McCain cheated by taking a poll? What happened to the days when we gathered evidence and studied it? Or am I showing my age?
Just follow the evidence. What? There is none?
Well then. The poll is just entertainment. And jolly good entertainment at that.
Without a script Obama is a doofus.
Really? A doofus? You've been watching to many "Leave it to Beaver" reruns.
Obama was good. For the setting he gave as good as answers as he could.
Yep.
BTW love your picture. Obama needs more support from people with similar class and style.
does anyone who has read this blog before believe for a second that Simon and others wouldn't be unmercilessly impugning Obama's character
I believe they (we) wouldn't. If you've read this blog you'll know this isn't LGF.
What I do know is that any criticism of Obama is considered demonization, and so any possible mention of a reversed situation would be considered unmerciless impugning.
And if Obama had heard the questions, I very much doubt we would have gotten very different answers. It was clear he had prepared answers for expected questions.
The "you'd do it too, so there" argument doesn't speak well of showing how, in fact, Obama answered the questions quite well for this forum. Nor does it show how McCain shined because of his passion and depth of experience. Maybe if you argue that he must have heard the questions 40 years ago and so spent the last decades preparing it would make a difference.
His expressions show he didn't know the questions. His short answers, which Warren commented on, suggests he wasn't prepared to fill out the time.
I am not saying McCain heard some questions beforehand just that his not being in this "cone of silence" is, at a minimum, misleading and unfair.
We know, because Warren told us, that both candidates had the first two questions in advance.
I understand "misleading", as Warren said that McCain was ensconced in his CoS, which implied he was in a room somewhere, when McCain wasn't. Warren should've checked with his staff as to McCain's whereabouts before he said that.
I don't understand "unfair", though - unless you're saying, because McCain wasn't in-house at the start of interview, he obviously cheated. That he was late because he wanted to cheat, that they planned it that way all along.
I don't see it that way.
Without a script Obama is a doofus.
Really? A doofus? You've been watching to many "Leave it to Beaver" reruns.
And Obama is still a doofus when he has to speak off the cuff.
Did you know we could save two trillion barrels of oil (the amount of American oil shale) by just inflating our tires? That is a heck of a lot of inflation.
My I think Obama has been captured by Big Air. I guess that would make him an airhead.
I love the Obama campaign trying to have their cake and eat it too:
Spin #1) Obama was clearly better than McCain; and
Spin #2) Obama only lost because McCain cheated.
What I saw was McCain delivering a very good but not untypical performance. If he cheated, it was probably pharmaceutical -- a perkiness and alertness boost.
I saw Obama also give a good performance, but make two or three terrible, unforced errors, such as the absurd citation of his "vote" against the Iraq war as his biggest crisis.
The biggest difference between them, which will also manifest during the debates is that McCain can draw direct lines from his life experiences to his issue positions and Obama cannot. For all the talk about his wondrous freshness and newness, Obama's positions are pedestrian and third-hand Democratic talking points. What makes Obama special is his campaign's execution, which speaks well of how he might govern. His thinking just isn't that exceptional. Neither is McCain's, but McCain's comes from somewhere voters can relate to.
I really don't think it would have made that big a difference. The candidates already knew that some topics were not going to be asked. They both knew what Rick Warren is all about, and I'm sure both candidates had plenty of time to prepare based on topics important to Warren and his church.
Now the KOS Kids say they have proof that McCain "Cheated"!!!! But one commenter at Digg.com where I found the story, nailed the rebuttal to the claim:
The video cuts the questions/statements that directly preceded McCains "yes, yes and find bad teachers other work." Warren made two statements and ended in a question.
Yes to we rank 16th in education.
Yes to we rank 1st in incarcerations.
Find bad teachers other work to wanting more accountability in schools.
While Kos claims Warren hadn't asked McCain any questions, it was a similar dynamic with Obama. Obama actually replied "Not Good" to the *statements* about 16th in schools and 1st in incarcerations.
While it is *possible* that McCain cheated, this is not proof that he did. He answered the (2) statements and (1) question posed to him.
Glad there are some people who are capable of reason out there.
If McCain had actually listened to the questions, he would've heard Obama's answers and would have had a good grip on Obama's level of performance. Then, if he'd had any wits about him at all, he would've made it a point to do better than Obama but not a lot better. Remember, the superdelegates could still swing this the other way and nominate HRC if they become convinced that Obama will lose in November. I'm sure McCain is mindful of this.
The fact that McCain did a LOT better than Obama, says that he didn't hear Obama's responses and didn't have any knowledge of how poorly he did. John just came out and did the best he could...which was pretty darn good.
If someone had listened and just passed along the questions to John, it's hard to believe that they wouldn't have commented on Obama's answers/performance as well.
DD
Is the left saying McCain doesn't know how to use a computer, but he dialed into a 3G podcast of the event on his iPhone while in the motorcade?
Is the left saying McCain doesn't know how to use a computer, but he dialed into a 3G podcast of the event on his iPhone while in the motorcade?
LOL! Yes, they are. Because they haven't much of anything else to talk about. I expect to hear more from some quarters about a vast organized conspiracy of some sorts, don't you?
This trojan horse of "cheating" and "misrepresent" is a smokescreen, and the people who bring it up know it.
They aren't doubtful, just duplicitous and basically dishonest.
Because no one and I mean NO ONE - believes for a second that if McCain had gone first and Obama second, their responses would have been one bit different.
Yo even imply otherwise is to dissemble and basically show oneself to be without any real integity - in anything - at all.
Well I accuse Dudley Do Right of cheating on this poll..
I'm pretty sure that he voted a thousand times,and that's why the option I chose is waaaay behind.
Dowtown Lad-
Are you sure he didn't say-
Code of Silence?
Because no one and I mean NO ONE - believes for a second that if McCain had gone first and Obama second, their responses would have been one bit different.
Yo even imply otherwise is to dissemble and basically show oneself to be without any real integity - in anything - at all.
I'd agree, but the loony left practice of historical revisionism is too well-established to assert "NO ONE."
Ann, let's inject a little reality into this discussion, because this controversy is moot:
Both Candidates knew the topics ahead of time.
From McCain's letter to NBC:
2.) In his official correspondence to both campaigns, Pastor Rick Warren provided both candidates with information regarding the topic areas to be covered, which Barack Obama acknowledged during the forum when asked about Pastor Warren's idea of an emergency plan for orphans and Obama said, "I cheated a little bit. I actually looked at this idea ahead of time, and I think it is a great idea;" 3.) John McCain actually requested that he and Barack Obama do the forum together on stage at the same time, making these kinds of after-the-fact complaints moot.
McCain outperformed Obama due to one simple reason: experience.
Plus, he wasn't on vacation last week. I don't know if he prepped for this forum, but I doubt he would have to, his whole campaign has been a prep for this forum.
Of course McCain cheated. There is no possible way he could have done better than Obama in this or any other forum without partaking in nefarious tomfoolery.
Obama is the Messiah! America needs Obama to save it and to get the world to love us once again, like they always did before Bush/Cheney! Only racists don't support Obama!
C'mon people, start reading the memos and getting the talking points down.
Putin would've been in the cone of silence.
Well ya I caught the wrap up of this Saddleback thing on CNN and they were desperately going back to Obama to try and rehabilitize him.
It was like watching an episode of ER with mouth to mouth resuscitation.
What the news will be from now on is-
The Obama Resuscitation.
Really stupid because I doubt that many people watched on the last days of summer with the Olympics going full tilt.
So like usual the press will do more harm than good-and their Obama Revival will have the unintended effect of making the public notice.
Sometimes the cover up is worse....
Its all projection. Obama cheated, and is now accusing McCain of same to provide cover.
Obama needs to be a new kind of politician
Yup, he's branded himself as "different", but then gives us SoreLoserman the sequel.
Andrea Mitchell should know that Obama is omniscient & thus knew McCain's answers before McCain even uttered them, so McCain needed to cheat & hear Obama's answers through his upper Left molar (or which ever side he hears better from) to even things up! Notice the swollen face? Hmmmm? Key Twighlight Zone Music, please.... :-)
Desperation. Thy name is Democrat.
Randy I think your numbers are skewed correctly, but I think with rare exceptions on both the left and the right, most of the commenters here are fair.
I would respect Beth and Madison Man's judgment just as much as I would Seven Machos and Simon on many things in life since I think they are all fair and honest and decent people.
If Obama would just go out and make his case and trust in the fairness of most American's he could do just fine. He might not win but he would stand a lot better chance then if he whines and cries that it wasn't fair.
Now maybe it's not him that's doing this now, but he should put a stop to it. Have some more debates and whip McCain’s ass. If he can. Like a man. Nobody likes a crybaby tattletale.
Except Freder.
I laugh. I laugh the laughter of the family Hyaenidae, of which there are four species, known for their laughter-like vocalizations. I laugh the laughter of the hyena that has just been told a joke by another hyena that is usually serious and so comes unexpectedly, one that is funny to hyenas but sorrily loses much in translation. A joke about a jaguar, swift but fragile as far as Felidae go, forfeiting its kill. That is how I laugh right now. But now, having said all of this, I've forgotten what's so funny. Oh yes. NYT. Well, there you go.
The only way the nutroots would be satisfied is if there was a Picture in Picture of McCain with a dunce cap, er "cone of silence", over his head during the Obama part of the segment.
"Who knows if he listened. But why did he mention in the debate that he was in the cone of silence when he wasn't?"
He didn't -- it was Rick Warren who made the "cone of silence" remark and McCain jokingly replied he had his "ear to the wall the whole time."
It's called humor -- a concept that's a bit foreign to the Obama crowd.
"I don't get the outrage that "McCain wasn't where he agreed to be."
That's because your not terrified that you're candidate is losing his edge and therefore grasping at anything to maintain your sanity.
Your vs You're. Please review.
Jebus, I'm sorry but Ann is so right on this non story. Big boys don't run home sobbing to mommy in the big leagues. Its really that simple. Conjecturing McCain "cheated" by not being in a cone of silence is beneath obama and his so-called supporters. If you really want obama to win SHUT UP! The rest of the adults don't care or will draw their own conclusions.
Winners don't whine. By whining, the Obama camp is admitting defeat.
American voters will embrace a cheater way before they'll embrace a whiner.
So, my advice to Campaign Change We Can Believe In, is whine, whine, whine, away.
We don't know if McCain "cheated," but the accusation of cheating is worse anyway, so Obama loses.
I just don't understand how accusing someone of cheating is worse than cheating. That makes no sense.
I think the more likely answer: McCain didn't listen -- who has time? -- but some aides did and summarized how Obama did before McCain went on.
The McCain campaign's denials have been crafted to avoid conceding that his aides heard the questions and relayed their content to him.
Who knows if he listened. But why did he mention in the debate that he was in the cone of silence when he wasn't?
It is surprising to me that few care about McCain's extemporaneous lying to Rick Warren (he lied to the host!?) and his campaign's cover-up, using his war hero status as a shield. How insulting to veterans.
McCain should have been where he agreed to be. He wasn't.
To recap:
1. McCain promised to be in the cone of silence. He broke that promise.
2. When asked about the cone of silence by Rick Warren, the pastor of the church whose debate he was attending, McCain lied about having broken his promise to be in the cone of silence.
3. When exposed as having broken his promise to be in the cone of silence and lying about it on national television, McCain's campaign insisted he could not have cheated because he is a war hero, notwithstanding the fact that he had just been caught breaking a promise and lying about it on national television to man of faith in his own church.
4. Whether he cheated or not, it is a fact that McCain had the opportunity to cheat.
Isn't this obviously a loss for McCain? This doesn't look like straight-talk to me. Frankly, I didn't get to catch the Saddleback debate when it first happened, and I watched it after hearing McCain may have cheated. His performance didn't look so good when I suspected the performer was a cheating liar.
McCain has explained he was out buying ice cream for orphan children at the time so that they would stop crying. Maybe he can buy Barack one too.
He can call it the ice cream cone of silence.
McCain has explained he was out buying ice cream for orphan children at the time so that they would stop crying.
This is hilarious. But it really highlights that McCain needs a justification, not an excuse. Why is he lying in church?
O.k for all the sore "looser" obamanites out there. Why not have a rematch, eh? Let McCain go first and see if the results are any different. It is becoming apparent why BHO has been ducking all those townhall meetings and more debates with Mccain now. Shut up while you're behind guys.
If the discussion is whether your candidate cheated and lied at a church debate, that's a loss with evangelicals. I don't know how you people are missing that.
The louder Obama and his bots squeal the more votes they will lose in the general. Americans do not like sore losers and the more the cheating thing gets raised, the more people will think Obama "lost." Just my .02
If Mortimer were awake he would be mad because McCain only bought vanilla ice cream for his ice cream cones of silence. No chocolate. The racist.
Mort--You think that evangelicals read the NYT? I am guessing you are not an evangelical, are you? McCain's target audience was evangelicals and I think he mended some fences with his performance.
On a somewhat diffent note, this debate was more reminiscent of Obama as Adlai Stevenson and McCain as Ike. Obama's answers were long and philosophical; McCains were pithy--advantage? McCain.
"4. Whether he cheated or not, it is a fact that McCain had the opportunity to cheat."
Well, you've probably had the "opportunity" to molest young children.
But you haven't, have you?
Mort, Warren made the "cone of silence" remark without knowing where McCain was. It's curious to me that you would say the McCain lied to Warren about being in the CoS, when he didn't. It was an error on Warren's part, and on the part of Warren's staff.
McCain and his staff have been forthcoming from the get-go as to McCain's whereabouts. Byron York has some additional reportage on this issue.
Mortimer, I remember how much you enjoyed touting that poll saying 22% found McCain's ad racist. You said he had serious problems because of that. You never mentioned or acknowledged the fact that the same poll showed that 53% of Americans (53% of whites, 44% of blacks and 61% of others) believe your candidate himself made a racist statement.
If anyone anywhere alleges anything about McCain, you're right there to say there must be something to it and McCain is in trouble now.
I think the more likely answer: McCain didn't listen -- who has time? -- but some aides did and summarized how Obama did before McCain went on.
MadisonMan lists one of two options Ann omitted from her poll: that, and "Maybe he listened, maybe he didn't, but that uncertainty debunks the integrity of the forum."
If he cheated, it was probably pharmaceutical -- a perkiness and alertness boost.
Cindy probably has a little sumpin sumpin in her purse...
But why bother with drugs, when a cuppa coffee after noon will keep an old guy up all night?
You never mentioned or acknowledged the fact that the same poll showed that 53% of Americans (53% of whites, 44% of blacks and 61% of others) believe your candidate himself made a racist statement.
4* Barack Obama said his opponent will try to scare people because Obama does not look like the other Presidents on dollar bills. Is that a racist comment?
53% Yes
38% No
9% Not sure
Just a thought. If I heard this question and thought it meant "Because he is black, Obama said his opponent will try to scare people," I would think that was a racist comment, because it suggests the race-baiting canard that Obama cannot help but play the victim, because that's what black people do. That may explain why 44% of African-Americans found the comment racist.
I would also note that a proper comparision would not be between the dollar bill comments and the Celebrity ad, but rather between the dollar bill comments and Rick Davis' accusation of "playing the race card from the bottom of the deck". I imagine a large percentage of African-Americans and Democrats found Rick Davis's "race card" comments to be themselves offensive, but Rasmussen did no polling on that phenomenon.
As for claiming that Obama is my candidate, Obama will win my state no matter what I do. I may vote for Bob Barr. There are conditions under which I would vote for John McCain (I might have voted for him in 2000 against Bill Bradley and probably would have against Al Gore), but unlike you, Randy, I don't generally vote for candidates who lie to pastors in their own churches on national television, so McCain would have some work to do in my eyes.
Mort, Warren made the "cone of silence" remark without knowing where McCain was. It's curious to me that you would say the McCain lied to Warren about being in the CoS, when he didn't. It was an error on Warren's part, and on the part of Warren's staff.
Yes. Warren's remark was innocent. Then McCain compounded Warren's mistake by saying, "I was trying to hear through the wall." Since he could have only heard through the wall if he had been in the building, McCain was lying about his whereabouts. McCain was not in the building and he was not in the cone of silence room where he had agreed to be. And he did not divulge that to Rick Warren, but instead make a "joke" that covered up his violation of the rules he had agreed to and that Rick Warren assumed he had followed. Then, when he was caught, he played the "war hero" card. That's disgusting.
I can assume by your failure to address the charge, then, that you do, in fact, molest small children, Mort?
Mortimer, promoting that part of that poll as you did struck me as intentionally deceptive but I had a small doubt. No longer. And now you are pretending that you might actually vote for John McCain under certain circumstances. Unbelievable.
I can assume by your failure to address the charge, then, that you do, in fact, molest small children, Mort?
Except not addressing the charge would be different than saying, "I molested two last week." When asked, "How was the cone of silence room?", McCain said "I was trying to hear through the wall." That is a lie. He was not in the room to hear through its wall. John McCain lied to a pastor in his own church on national television. Your refusal to address that charge is what's galling.
derekkite
Mortimer, promoting that part of that poll as you did struck me as intentionally deceptive but I had a small doubt. No longer. And now you are pretending that you might actually vote for John McCain under certain circumstances. Unbelievable.
The ad under discussion in that thread was the Celebrity ad. I'm not sure why I would talk about McCain's web ad portraying Obama's face on a dollar bill in the thread, but, now that I think of it, perhaps both of McCain's ads were discussed in that thread.
In any event, I'm not sure how that makes your inability to read a poll relevant. If I recall, your argument was that 75 million people do not equal 25% of the total population (approx. 300 million), and that's why you didn't finish your master's degree in statistics.
As for voting for McCain, there are lots of registered Democrats who would vote for McCain under certain circumstances. That's why the election is so close. It won't be on election day, though, if John McCain keeps lying about breaking his promises to respected religious leaders on national television and then using his war medals as a shield from legitimate criticism, which is repugnant to Democrats and Republicans alike.
He was not in the room to hear through its wall.
Is it known for a fact that John McCain was not in the green room at any time during Barack Obama's performance? Are you saying that McCain stepped out of his limousine and directly on-stage for his own performance?
I watched the interviews. I thought it was pretty obvious that McCain didn't know what the questions were. Some of them clearly caught him by surprise.
Also, since he answered so many questions so concisely, Rick Warren was able to ask him additional questions he didn't have time to get through with the bloviating Obama.
I think that pretty neatly shoots down the smear campaign the Obama zealots are trying to organize.
"Except not addressing the charge would be different than saying, 'I molested two last week.'"
So, then, you admit that you molest children -- two in the last week alone. by your count.
Well, I can't see any reason why we should listen to the political ramblings of an admitted child molester.
Someone needs to alert the authorities -- they may wish to trace Mort's profile and apprehend him before he ruins more innocent lives.
Is it known for a fact that John McCain was not in the green room at any time during Barack Obama's performance?
There is a difference betwene being a reception area ("the green room") and being in the cone of silence room, which was specially set up to be devoid of TV and radio and internet access and where John McCain was supposed to be sitting, alone. He was never in that room, and his campaign has admitted as much.
If Obama was uncomfortable, or hadn't ready answers to the questions, then his campaign is incompetent.
This is like not going to the military hospital in Germany.
The questions were soft. They were things that are commonly discussed in that religious community. If he had to think hard about 3 people he respected, he hasn't thought very much.
I'm getting the picture that the Obama campaign is full of people who run screaming with their ears covered when anything but left wing doctrine is brought up.
He's got to do some firing, and quick. If that performance happened in the 3rd week of October, it would be an 8 point blowout.
Derek
So, then, you admit that you molest children -- two in the last week alone. by your count.
No. I admit that your question makes no sense and is irrelevant to this discussion for the reasons I have already stated. Falsely accusing me of child molestation most certainly doesn't exonerate John McCain of breaking his promises, lying about it to a pastor in his own church, perhaps cheating in a church debate, and then shutting down criticism of his perfidy by waving around to his war medals.
Oh, about those 75,000,000 people, Mortimer: Do you really want to argue again that 22% is almost 25%? It's almost 19%, too (margins of error go both ways, Mortimer, but you like to fudge the numbers to the side that you agree with, don't you?). You enjoyed pretending the number was 75,000,000, didn't you? 75,000,000 is about 25% of the entire population of the United States of America. About 90,000,000 Americans are ineligible to vote, most of them too young to have a political opinion of any kind. But you knew that when you wrote the post, didn't you, Mortimer? Once again, you chose deception over accuracy.
I have to say, Mort's understanding of McCain's whereabouts certainly differs from other accounts I have read. One of the commenters provided a link. That version has McCain in a motorcade for 35 minutes of Obama's hour and then going directly to a room, which I believe was purported to be in a different building, to wait until the church's escorts took him to the stage.
Whatever the case we could just ask the secret service detail and find out rather than attempt to deduce his whereabouts.
Mort: is there a reason why you are using bold italics for your assertions? Making them bold italics does nothing to change them from what is a statement of your interpretation into a concrete fact. Just a suggestion.
Stop feeding the child molesting troll. It has become tedious. You can never disprove a negative with these folks.
Mortimer: Do you really want to argue again that 22% is almost 25%?
If the margin of error is 3 points, yes, that is arguable. I took the figure that presented the best case for your side of the argument and criticized that, rather than viewing your argument in its worst light.
75,000,000 is about 25% of the entire population of the United States of America.
Yes. I have stated that consistently, and it is true.
He was never in that room, and his campaign has admitted as much.
So you say. For all I know, you may be even be correct. Unfortunately, your record on Althouse leads one to the unfortunate conclusion that you are not a credible reporter of fact.
I see. You would have us believe that you believe that children as young as one or two year of age have political beliefs.
That version has McCain in a motorcade for 35 minutes of Obama's hour and then going directly to a room, which I believe was purported to be in a different building, to wait until the church's escorts took him to the stage.
That is my understanding as well: McCain was never in the cone of silence room that Rick Warren had set up for him. The cone of silence room was in the building where the debate was held.
The point is that McCain had access to the internet through his aides' Blackberries, and he could have had access to television or radio (in the car or in the other holding room). That would have been impossible had McCain been where he had promised to be. That isn't my interpretation. It's a fact, and it was conceded by the McCain campaign.
They also say McCain didn't cheat. Fine.
That aren't my problems with McCain's behavior. My problems are:
1. He broke his promise.
2. He lied about it on national television to Rick Warren's face.
3. When called on it, he waved around his war medals.
I took the figure that presented the best case for your side of the argument and criticized that, rather than viewing your argument in its worst light.
And which side would that be, BTW?
Unfortunately, your record on Althouse leads one to the unfortunate conclusion that you are not a credible reporter of fact.
There is no basis for that conclusion at all. Your problem seems to be that I think the total population is around 300 million and 75 million is 25% of 300million. I'm not sure why that is problematic for you. But if that makes me unreliable, I guess asserting that 2+2=4 makes me unreliable, too.
Mort: McCain said "I was trying to hear through the wall." That is a lie. He was not in the room to hear through its wall.
Mort: There is a difference betwene being a reception area ("the green room") and being in the cone of silence room,
Uh Mort... do you think the Green Room has walls?
No, Mortimer, once again, you intentionally misrepresent the facts. As such, your continued insistence on that false number, which does not reflect the actual voting age population of the country, amply demonstrates your willingness to misrepresent the facts when it suits your purpose.
Mort, now your reading comprehension is coming into question: He was never in that room, and his campaign has admitted as much.
From CNN, last night: [A]t 8 p.m. ET, as Warren said that, McCain was actually not in the building. He was just leaving his hotel, with his motorcade arriving at the church nearly a half hour into the event. A. Larry Ross, a spokesman for Warren, says McCain then went directly into the holding room they dubbed the “cone of silence” (in reality, a room with no TV or audio).
From NRO, today:
As far as the McCain side is concerned, I spoke to Charlie Black a few minutes ago. He told me McCain's motorcade left his hotel at 5 p.m. Saturday — that's the time Obama went on stage at Saddleback. Black told me the trip took 35 minutes, and that McCain was in the car with the Secret Service guys, Sen. Lindsey Graham, and press aide Brooke Buchanan. (Black was in another car.) Black says that McCain did not hear any of Warren's questions or Obama's answers during the car ride. Then: "We arrived at Saddleback and went into a holding room, which is a separate building from the main church. In the room there were four or five staff people, plus McCain, and there was no TV, no audio, no nothing. We talked through a few of the topics. We had spent time in the afternoon preparing, doing Q&A, and we did a few more questions to warm him up. At about ten til six, the advance guys came to get McCain to take him to the stage, because the handshake with Obama was a few minutes before 6 p.m. McCain never heard any of this stuff." (emphasis added in both cases)
Uh Mort... do you think the Green Room has walls?
There was no "green room." McCain went to an informal holding area rather than the cone of silence room because he was late. When he was asked by Warren how the cone of silence room was, he said "I was trying to hear through the walls." McCain's statement doesn't make any sense as applied to a nonexistent green room, nor does it make any sense related to the informal holding area in the other building that he was taken to because he was so late.
Mortimer: Do you really want to argue again that 22% is almost 25%?
"If the margin of error is 3 points, yes, that is arguable."
It is also arguable that it is 19% since the margin of error is +/-.
No, Mortimer, once again, you intentionally misrepresent the facts. As such, your continued insistence on that false number, which does not reflect the actual voting age population of the country.
I'm not sure what this has to do with your argument which had two parts, if I recall:
1. We should never judge people as members of groups.
2. We should judge people as members of groups sometimes.
From CNN, last night: [A]t 8 p.m. ET, as Warren said that, McCain was actually not in the building. He was just leaving his hotel, with his motorcade arriving at the church nearly a half hour into the event. A. Larry Ross, a spokesman for Warren, says McCain then went directly into the holding room they dubbed the “cone of silence” (in reality, a room with no TV or audio).
Actually, Warren's comments on CNN last night were incorrect. The NRO statement is accurate (though, it is a right-wing publication). As I noted before, the cone of silence room that was set up by Warren's staff was NOT the holding area where McCain was taken when he showed up late. The McCain campaign says that the holding room was equivalent in terms of lacking TV, etc., which I have no reason to doubt, but it was not in fact the identical room, and McCain could have gotten information from his aides' Blackberries. This only matters, of course, if you think Mccain cheated. I don't care if he cheated, actually.
I care that:
1. He broke his promise.
2. He lied about it.
3. He used his war medals as a shield to deflect criticism.
That's it.
It's not controversy, it's foreshadowing.
It is also arguable that it is 19% since the margin of error is +/-.
I know that. That is what arguable means.
In any event, 19% would not have been as favorable. I gave Randy the benefit of the doubt rather than purposely undercutting his argument. What you're missing here is that Randy is just angry that I made him look bad on another thread. He doesn't really believe that I won't vote for Bob Barr.
As I noted before, the cone of silence room that was set up by Warren's staff was NOT the holding area where McCain was taken when he showed up late.
Why do you keep repeating this, when both Warren's people and McCain's people contradict it? Link, please? You're the only one I've heard make this charge.
Also, I can't believe you're calling "I was trying to hear through the wall" a lie and expecting that to stick. Of course he was lying! We were supposed to imagine him with his ear pressed against the wall, trying for some advantage. Was he really trying to listen through the wall? Of course not! It was a joke, and it went over well. You're not doing yourself any favors here, Mort.
"No. I admit that your question makes no sense and is irrelevant to this discussion for the reasons I have already stated. Falsely accusing me of child molestation most certainly doesn't exonerate John McCain of breaking his promises, lying about it to a pastor in his own church, perhaps cheating in a church debate, and then shutting down criticism of his perfidy by waving around to his war medals."
Don't change the subject, Mort.
It's clear you're trying to deflect blame for your own failures, your own disgusting, dehumanizing behavior against innocent young children, by casting aspersions on a true, decorated American hero.
You need help, Mort. And the first step toward getting that help is for you to log off and turn yourself in to the police.
It's the right thing, Mort -- it's change we can all believe in.
Falsely accusing me of child molestation most certainly doesn't exonerate John McCain of breaking his promises, lying about it to a pastor in his own church, perhaps cheating in a church debate, and then shutting down criticism of his perfidy by waving around to his war medals.
Don't change the subject, Mort.
You're right. Let's get back to discussing McCain the Liar.
Also, I can't believe you're calling "I was trying to hear through the wall" a lie and expecting that to stick. Of course he was lying!
Just so long as we know that McCain supporters are approving of lies told to pastors in church.
Was he really trying to listen through the wall? Of course not!
My problem isn't that McCain lied to us. My problem is that he lied to Rick Warren. McCain knew he wasn't in the cone of silence room and he knew Warren thought he'd been there. Instead of explain that he'd been late, but the holding area was nice and Warren's staff had been cordial, McCain implied that he had been in the cone of silence room. He may have covered that lie up with a joke to the audience, but he still broke his promise, lied to a pastor in front of his own flock in the man's own church, and then waved around his war medals to excuse the despicable behavior.
I gave Randy the benefit of the doubt rather than purposely undercutting his argument.
Oh, gee. Thanks! LOL!
Thanks!
You're welcome.
/fine
Mort: McCain said "I was trying to hear through the wall." That is a lie. He was not in the room to hear through its wall.
Mort: McCain went to an informal holding area rather than the cone of silence room because he was late.
Uh Mort... do you think the "holding area" has walls?
Mort, you're ducking the question: why do you keep insisting that the holding room was not the "cone of silence" room? What's your source, other than your own indignation?
This is ridiculous, really.
Now I have had my differances with Mort over the years, but I have to say he is only interested in full breasted mature woman with big titties and is all around normal horn dog despite any aspersions to the contary. Just to make things clear to anyone who is reading these comments for the first time.
Sorry to interuppt. Carry on with the political invective.
Joan: I can't believe you're calling "I was trying to hear through the wall" a lie and expecting that to stick.
You must not have much experience with Mort.
You'll get more out of this if you drop the political discussion and watch him trip around over his own sword. Think of it as an entertaining intermission.
Uh Mort... do you think the "holding area" has walls?
The holding area was in another building than the cone of silence room.
why do you keep insisting that the holding room was not the "cone of silence" room?
Because multiple online news accounts say that (every one with a update has said that), as well as liberal blog posts. That account is also consistent with what I read and you cited to on NRO. It is inconsistent with the last night comments from CNN, well, which are from last night. Much of the press was watching Phelps win at the Olympics, like everyone else, so the story has been developing.
Don't you know obama's crowd hopes the whole thing goes away and McCain side wants them to keep shooting themselves in the foot on this one? At best it makes obama side look like sore losers at worst a delusional, sore losers. But by all means Mort keep digging you are only helping McCain
Mort, you're ducking the question
You already conceded that McCain was "obviously lying" in church to a pastor, Joan, so I'm not sure why you keep askng questions. Your concession says it all.
Now I have had my differances with Mort over the years, but I have to say he is only interested in full breasted mature woman with big titties and is all around normal horn dog despite any aspersions to the contary. Just to make things clear to anyone who is reading these comments for the first time.
Full breasted mature women.
But by all means Mort keep digging you are only helping McCain
I'm not digging anything. McCain lied. Joan, apparently McCain's most ardent supporter here, conceded that McCain lied. That settles it for me.
In fact, Mort has a pronounced affinity for a certain blonde cougar that spends her time in coffeehouses and cafes hoping to interact with strangers while maintaining an air of mystery. I am sure that many a night he has Ernie Borgnined away while contemplating fish eyed reflections in various coffee shop windows. In fact it is this oft stated longing that is the true cause of the rift with Simon as two dogs can not relieve themselves on the same hydrant so to speak.
So let’s not get so personal. Let’s keep it civil. Remember if we take our mind off the important things like large breasted slutty women, well then the terrorists have won!
I am Trooper York and I approved this message.
Wait, I think I get it. Mort's saying that the "holding room" couldn't possibly be the "cone of silence" room because it was in another building.
Why are those two mutually exclusive? I thought it made perfect sense -- if you really want to be sure no one is going to hear anything, put them as far away as makes sense while still being able to get McCain on stage on time. The two terms have been used interchangeably. The holding room = the cone of silence room.
(I'm reminded of that aphorism about arguing with a toddler.)
Ahem: Joan, apparently McCain's most ardent supporter here, conceded that McCain lied.
McCain "lied" in the sense that everyone "lies" when he exaggerates or says something ridiculous to make someone else laugh, exactly the same way that Warren "lied" when he said that McCain was in a cone of silence. There is no cone! There never was a cone! Warren (gasp) lied!
Mort, I gotta hand it to you. You've given me a good laugh over this today.
I'm reminded of that aphorism about arguing with a toddler.
LOL!
I am sure that many a night he has Ernie Borgnined away while contemplating fish eyed reflections in various coffee shop windows. In fact it is this oft stated longing that is the true cause of the rift with Simon as two dogs can not relieve themselves on the same hydrant so to speak.
Wow. This must be payback for the trooper gay stuff. I'll deny this just to make sure no one takes my silence as acceptance of it.
McCain "lied" in the sense that everyone "lies" when
It depends what the definition of "is" is. I did not have "sexual relations" with that woman.
What I find amusing is that Joan, who most certainly includes herself in "everyone," just admitted the she is a liar. I suppose we can safely assume that her posts here are subject to exaggerations and exotic flights of fancy.
Why are those two mutually exclusive? I thought it made perfect sense
Except the updated news stories from publications other than the National Review Online explicitly note that the cone of silence room that was prepped was in the building where the debate was held. McCain was in an informal room because he showed up late and staff just put him where it was most convenient at the time, as multiple accounts confirm. If you're going to start backpeddling by denying confirmed facts...
The two terms have been used interchangeably.
The only source that purported to use the terms interchangeably... wait for it... is the McCain campaign press release that waves around McCain's war medals.
Mort, baby I am defending you here. Don't deny your true feelings of lust for a mature cougar who has haunted your dreams lo these many nights. That's very normal man. Be true to yourself.Be true to John Taylor. You never know. Stranger things have happened dude. You have to be in it to win it. Faint heart never won the fair lady. I am on your side on this dude.
Mort, baby I am defending you here. Don't deny your true feelings of lust for a mature cougar who has haunted your dreams lo these many nights. That's very normal man. Be true to yourself.Be true to John Taylor. You never know. Stranger things have happened dude. You have to be in it to win it. Faint heart never won the fair lady. I am on your side on this dude.
(Kirk Lazarus, Tropic Thunder 2008)
Wow. This must be payback for the trooper gay stuff. I'll deny this just to make sure no one takes my silence as acceptance of it.
Flipper Purify, 1991
(Hee,hee. If Mort were awake and could figure it out he would say it was racist. Of course it's not, but I do so love to see him squirm).
If you're going to start backpeddling by denying confirmed facts...
If the fact is confirmed, then why no links? I've done enough link hunting on this thread already. Your turn!
And yes, I admit, I have exaggerated for effect, like the time I told my children that it was the Laundry Fairy that came and washed all their clothes and folded them nicely and put them away, then I had to tell them that there wasn't really a Laundry Fairy, but I think they'd figured it out already.
Mort: McCain said "I was trying to hear through the wall." That is a lie. He was not in the room to hear through its wall.
Mort: The holding area was in another building than the cone of silence room.
Uh Mort... do you think the "holding area" has walls?
Mort: where did the italicized bold assertions go? Hey man, positive growth! you go guy
Maybe the holding area was the roof of the next-door building? Mort?
And yes, I admit, I have exaggerated for effect
Joan admits that she is a liar.
I've done enough link hunting on this thread already.
To an NRO piece that I accepted as accurate.
Mort, since you refuse to link to any source that documents that the holding room McCain was in prior to his appearance on stage was not the room that Warren had prepared for him as the "cone of silence," or even that there was a room prepared in the first place, I guess you must be having a blast putting all of us on like this. What a card!
And since you persist in not being able to distinguish a lie -- a statement made with intent to deceive -- from a joke -- a statement made with intent to amuse -- I'll leave you to your narrow interpretations and gotchas. Bugs says it best.
Actually, McCain did look at the questions ahead of time. So did Obama. The NY Times now has the full report from Warren's camp:
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/who-knew-what-when/
And Keith Olberman covered the "not in the cone of silence" room claim, in detail, on the Countdown tonight.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26278933#26278933
Anyone who wants to see McCain's lie/joke for themselves can watch this segment of Hardball, which analyzes it:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26276870#26276870
As I said, the story was developing, and Mr. Warren's claims on CNN were incomplete and inaccurate. Now we have the entire story.
Did McCain give any answers different from his positions so far in the campaign?
If not then all Obama needed to do was to study McCain's campaign and work out better positions.
In other words Obama could have cheated by paying attention. We know he could. He is from Harvard and taught at the University of Chicago.
So the question is: why isn't Obama paying attention?
But by all means Mort keep digging you are only helping McCain
I'm not digging anything. McCain lied.
McCain lied. Obama died.
I guess we have the perfect summary of the forum.
See you in November, Mort.
This is the entire story? None of these stories says anything new. We knew that McCain was in a holding room or a green room, and no one is saying that that room was not the "cone of silence" room, as you've been saying all day.
Fineman calls Andrea Mitchell a "paragon of impartiality"... when she reported an unsubstantiated rumor from the Obama campaign? Right, that's impartial. But even Fineman recognized the absurdity of the segment he was on, as he joked about a "colander of quiet" or some other container for McCain.
As to the "analysis" of McCain's "lie", the Obama rep said "this is silliness" and "a tempest in a teapot." The McCain rep said this demonstrates the arrogance of the Obama camp. I agree with both of them.
The only one who agrees with you, Mort, is Keith Olberman. That's a sure sign you need help.
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