June 13, 2006
Rove!
Once again, he escapes the forces of justice! Oh, the pain that will wrack the lefty blogosphere today!
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85 comments:
I guess this means he is innocent then.
Naturally, the White House will not comment on this because of the ongoing investigation re: Scooter Libby and V. Plame.
"Do they know it's Fitzmas time at all? "
The article points out that, although Rove won't be indicted, he was "dangerously close to possible charges."
So let that be a lesson to him.
Topic over. Rats. But at least we still get to mull over Scooter's case, which appears to be struggling for relevance. And I hope the mainstream press found the push for prosecution worth it, now that leaking (and then printing) government secrets is no longer given a free pass.
I don't really understand why Rove gets to people so bad. It's kind of funny. I have too much work to do to browse around the blogosphere to see people freak out, but I'm going to take Mary's comment as basically what it will look like. It's not all that entertaining.
Here's David Corn's reaction:
The news today is that Karl Rove will not be indicted by Patrick Fitzgerald. I'll be back later with more on this. But first thought: that doesn't mean that Rove and the White House didn't do anything wrong. In fact, the White House falsely stated that (a) Rove (and Scooter Libby) were not involved in the leak and (b) that anyone involved would no longer work in the White House. Rove did tell two reporters (Robert Novak and Matt Cooper) about Joe Wilson's wife's employment at the CIA (undeniably classified information). And he's still working at the White House. What does that say about the man in charge of the White House?
He assumes we want more. Well, it's too late to get less, which was my preference. But good luck avoiding more, even if you steer clear of Corn. How many bloggers are typing out right new: he's still guilty because no one ever proved him innocent?
Do Rove's legal fees come out of his own pocket, or can he eventually seek restitution from the government?
I rather doubt it. Was Clinton able to seek restitution from the government?
And sippican, yes -- it's often the coverup that bites the Politician -- of whatever color -- in the kiester. You would think they would learn by now, wouldn't you? If it's true that no one will ever be charged for leaking in Plame (and I'm not certain that lack of charges relate to lack of crime, but whatever), well that's very similar to the Ken Starr thing, eh? Nothing came from the original investigation there either, just morphed and expanded until a charge appeared.
If you ask politicians enough questions under oath, my opinion is that eventually they will commit perjury.
Re: "If you ask politicians enough questions under oath, my opinion is that eventually they will commit perjury. "
It would appear that prosecutors have discovered this tactic, for if you ask anyone enough questions under oath, eventually one will commit what can be called perjury. It's not unlike how a State inspector can always find fault, because nothing is ever perfect. Heck, that's how Medicare funds some of its services (i.e. confiscation via penalties). All are sinners before the great and powerful State.
The question is, why is lying about something non-criminal a crime?
Why are non-crimes of interest to prosecutors?
And why do prosecutors (and attorneys general) seem to lack any oversight at all?
I love the way the NYT's:
1. Makes the story about them and Wilson
2. Obfuscates the Wilson fabrications by using Wilson's narrative to describe the precuros events.
Ms. Wilson is married to Joseph C. Wilson IV, the former ambassador who wrote in an Op-Ed column in the New York Times on July 6, 2003 that White House officials, including Mr. Bush, had exaggerated assertions that Iraq had sought to purchase nuclear fuel from Africa. Mr. Wilson wrote that such claims were "highly dubious."
He said his conclusions were based on a trip he had made in early 2002 to Niger, a fact-finding mission that he said had been "instigated" by Mr. Cheney's office.
way to keep on message even when facing a Fitzmas failure.
Mary said...
Many people see Rove as responsible for the emphasis on social conservativism that has led much of the Republican Party to abandon its conservative ideology (small-government, libertarian principles).
that theory only would work for RINO's like me. That doesn't begin to come up for a rationale for why the Democrats hate Rove. (e.g abandoning the GOP preference for small government, should please Demo's not send them into cardiac arrest at his name)
"If you ask politicians enough questions under oath, my opinion is that eventually they will commit perjury."
I would broaden that to say that if you ask ANYONE enough questions under oath, eventually they'll commit perjury (or at least, something arguably so).
Simon,
Conceding you're right, it sure is easier to get perjury out of a Politician.
They have this intense desire to tell an audience what they think the audience wants to hear, rather than what is the truth. Good for elections, bad for Grand Juries.
Mary,
What's with attacking some kids on a post about Rove? That's just mean and flailing.
"No charges doesn't mean he's innocent"
"Fake but accurate"
Never mind the evidence or the lack thereof, at the end of the day I'll have the same opinion that I had before any investigation started. Still looking for those votes in Cleveland?
Sip's a big boy. He can take it. He likes it. Read the namecalling and personal jabs in his style of "argumentation".
Attacking someone individually is one thing. Going on about his children is just contemptible.
I had, long with others, assumed that Q*xxo was duplicating his execrable style of argumentation under multiple pseudonyms.
I guess I wasn't prepared for the notion that vile behavior was that common among the left. Perhaps I was wrong.
Unable to tolerate the collapse of the plan to frogmarch Rove for the sin of exposing Wilson's mendacity, the Left mocks a couple of kids.
It's like watching Lucille Ball get overwhelmed at the chocolate candy conveyor: Waaaaaaaaaah.
Sheesh. Hey, I know, I have not one but two retarded brothers. Maybe you can mock them, too, much as I can take it and all. (Hint: one's so impaired he can't talk much. Ready? Set? Go!)
Pogo: Don't you understand, its ok to mock and name call BECAUSE he did it first. Its that maturity thing working.
Consdier the comments here about "the left" (who are they?) namecalling re: Rove and then recall the tactics used against McCain in South Carolina.
Read the comment from 8:45 in that light:
Attacking someone individually is one thing. Going on about his children is just contemptible.
Rove has that affect, apparently.
Reaction from the left? I predict a quick bluster followed by almost ignoring it. They will, however, stew on it amongst themselves until it finally metastisizes into another legendary example, along with Florida 2000, Ohio 2004 and Haliburton, as further proof of the evil and fascism of Chimpy BusHitler's regime and the corrupt Rethuglicans.
Sippican: I deleted several posts.
It is, as several people have already pointed out, unacceptable to use children like that. It's not interesting or funny or decent. And I'll delete posts that argue with me about this, so don't waste your time defending the practice here. Start your own blog if you think that's a good topic.
Ann: Good for you! I agree.
SippicanCottage: As a constant lurker (and rare commenter), I'll really miss you if you go. Please don't.
Mary: You and Ann Coulter must have attended the same charm school! Ah well, your comments are gone but your mission was accomplished. You must be so proud of yourself.
"Here's David Corn's reaction:
The news today is that Karl Rove will not be indicted by Patrick Fitzgerald."
I read the news today oh, boy
About a lucky man who made the grade
And though the news was rather sad
Well, I just had to laugh
I go to jennifer's blog from time-to-time, and Mary's deposited her inane crap there too in a couple spots.
Sippican, he/they have "targeted" you for the same reason they have singled out Ann and this blog: envy. They see that you have developed a modest fanbase here, fellow longtime commenters who enjoy and look forward to reading your posts. I daresay they envy your wit and elegant writing as well.
I don't blame you for giving up in disgust, but I sure hate the implication that they "accomplished their mission," as ronin put it.
I think it is wonderful beyond words we live in a land where you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Where it is better to let 100 guilty people go free than it is to imprison one innocent man.
Eugene Volokh has a great essay about that. n Guilt Men He wrote this when he was still more computer geek than law professor.
So yes, I was way too early in celebrating Rove's indictment.
But Ann, what do you actually make of Rove's seemingly unprecedented number of trips to the grand jury? Or the fact that the White House lied about his involvement in Plame? Or his ever changing story? The missing emails, the changing timeline, or Fitz saying not that there was no underlying crime, but that obstruction of justice occurred with Libby, and he threw sand in the umpire's eyes to ensure that a crime could not be detected?
Rove is innocent. But it is not the case that Fitz said there was no underlying crime.
Ann, wouldn't you agree this is more a victory for an apparently wonderful defense lawyer, Luskin, than it is for what became clear here, a very ethically challenged White House?
Ann, do you honestly feel that in a similar case, someone not on the White House staff, say, you or me, would have had the benefit of five trips before the grand jury?
Is Rove's due process anything similar to what you or I would have been given?
And how do you feel about Rove being able to keep his security clearance after admitting his involvement in the outing of a covert CIA operative?
How do you feel about George saying he would fire anyone associated with that leak, and then backpedaling to say that he would fire anyone only after a conviction?
How do you feel about a whitehouse that uses leaks to the press to defame people, and that unclassifies on their own covert agents just so they can cover their own political hides?
You say you wanted less and not more, but isn't it the case that had Rove come out and admitted his behavior in the very beginning, we would have had very little but the truth and then it really would have been over? Isn't Karl responsible for his own troubles here?
he's still guilty because no one ever proved him innocent?
Oh I acknowledge his innocence according to the law, I await his taking up golf with OJ while they each search for the true criminals.
Mary, they are seriously humor impaired here. I didn't see what you wrote, but it seems ironic that you were referencing a song.
In the past, Professor Althouse became seriously upset that liberals didn't realize she was was referencing a song here either when she wrote her infamous whine, Can I get a feminist.
Ann fancies herself a pop culture observer and expert, but she actually misses quite a few references.
And the line for anyone that disagrees with Professor Althouse shifts constantly. It will forever be right underneath your toes.
Slippery, you keep promising us you are leaving this world. You remind me of Fred Sanford.
Don't you want to be known as a man of your word?
I have to go to work, you guys enjoy your party, it is a long time coming. Just please don't get on the road in your condition.
For me the disgusting aspect of Whitewater was that it was specifically set up to target and victimize lower/middle to middle-class people headed for retirement.
The Clintons and their partners put it very, very tiny fine print that if these people missed even one payment on their property, every payment up to that point was to be considered rent, and they were left with nothing. Then they'd just re-sell/rent the property to the next schmuck.
I went for a long time not knowing this was the real story behind Whitewater. Now when the Clintons posture about caring for the middle class, I want to spit.
Sorry this is a bit OT
Just checked the D Kos kids. As of 851 am, there are only a few angry posts. One speculating Rove turned Cheney, even though the word is there will be no more indictments. A few others proclaiming that he's still guilty (of being Karl Rove or something) but that Fitz was incompetent, and a few admitted there just wasn't quite enough evidence to prosecute. Funny how that rational is so useful in politics. After the Whitewater probe closed without a Hillary indictment, the Dems spun it as complete exoneration, and the Republicans used the aforementioned rational, though I do recall that that is close to the final conclusions of the prosecutors.
PS. Sip. You can't leave. You are part of the Althouse Five... or is that Six???
Of course, now the Dems have a perfect excuse for losing in November. The Grand Master Wizard of Politics is still in control of the world!
The left (like Quxxo and Mary here) can froth all they want, but it's over. Fitz looked for a crime for eight months and didn't find one. It's over, dude.
I missed the kerfluffle here but...Funny how some people are so full of love and compassion for someone like Zarqawi or the Gitmo prisoners yet harbor such hatred towards Rove.
Yes, Larry, my memory does fail me sometimes. I will say this though: while I vastly prefer Fitzgerald's leak-proof Grand Jury to Starr's, I sometimes wonder how things would evolve if their styles were flipped.
Bush was ... a partner to a real business scandal that involved legal shenanigans, a bankrupt S&L and taxpayer bailout.
The wonders of selective editing. :)
Funny how some people are so full of love and compassion for someone like Zarqawi
When has anyone written anything like that here? I mean, my memory ain't the greatest, but I'd like to think I'd remember something so ridiculous.
Using a song lyric in no way immunizes you: You gratuitously talked about a man's young children. Get a clue!
And tough if you don't get my standards. It's my blog. I'm not going to spend my time analyzing the principles behind the deletions and reasoning about them in public. You're guests here. Stop cluttering the space with things not worth reading and things that drive away people who do write things worth reading. If you think your writing is so fascinating, what with allusions to song lyric, write your own blog. See if anyone wants to read it. You want to compare yourself to me? That would be how to prove it.
MadisonMan,
In the threads on the Gitmo suicides and Zarqawi's death, not this one.
ouch! :)
Yes Ma'am. Is it this post or the other where we're talking about anger responses and gender? j/k
Seriously Ann,
I appreciate your attempts to run a civil operation and I'd hate to have folks like Sip run off and I'm sure he knows it.
I saw no compassion towards Zarqawi in the thread on his death. (That was the thread that was impossible to post to, wasn't it?) We must interpret things differently. I saw compassion for the father of Berg, and that's it.
This not the first time that Mary has brought up someone's children or the fact of someone's parenthood when she's in a froth about what someone has said. Because of that, song lyric or no, she deserves no benefit of the doubt in that particular regard.
MadisonMan,
Though I think we are on opposite sides of this issue, I too went to try to find evidence of that tone, in the Z posts and failed to find it.
changing the subject slightly, here is a nice piece about how the MSM built Z up into the master terrorist, then when caught, he suddenly becomes a small fish whose death actually makes Iraq less safe for the US
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/medias_conveniently_changing_v.html
make that link
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/medias_conveniently_changing_v.html
Pogo, I'm disappointed that you overlook Madisonman, myself, and the many other left commentators who differ markedly from the many faces of Q and Mary, when you decide that comments from those two people indicate something "common among the left." That's a poor conclusion to come to based on so little. I suspect it's what you want to believe, with or without evidence. That's too bad.
Sippican, don't change a thing about yourself, what you have to say, and when you feel like saying it. I'd miss you terribly.
Mackan and John in Nashville: You're making me miss Quxxo. jeesh.
I am late to the discussion but Rove is a hero to me. If he were a Dem, you'd never see his name without the adjective "brilliant" preceding it. I believe Hollywood should make a cartoon with Rove as a Superhero flying around with his huge forehead and twisting the best liberal minds into anguish-filled knots.
Sippican - I always look forward to reading your comments on this blog. You provide very measured and astute observations and you don't take yourself too seriously.
So stick around or we will go find you and drag you back here! You can't let someone named "Mary" run you off!
Re: "Pogo, I'm disappointed that you overlook Madisonman, myself, and the many other left commentators...."
In trying not to paint with a broad brush, I have failed.
I deliberately left off naming names, thinking them obvious: Jacques, Quxxo, Mary, Thersites, and some of similar tone were my target, not everything left of center. And I am well aware of similar tendencies amongst the LGF crowd, so I don't think it inheres in leftism.
In a former life, I wrote well enough to be clear about such things.
Mary, why are you objecting to Althouse's comment policy? First, it's not your blog. Second, you've been known to bring people's children into conversations before, for no good reason. Third, if Ann's comment policy is so egregious to you, DON'T COMMENT HERE!
Also, all complaints about comment policy from you and Quxxo are hypocritical, given that neither of you have the courtesy to allow comments on your respective blogs.
Bush was ... a partner to a real business scandal that involved legal shenanigans, ... and taxpayer bailout.
Are you guys kidding me?
Harken Energy and Arbusto Energy. No taxpayer bailout but insider trading and stockholder fleecing. Taxpayer bailout? Bush, Texas Rangers, condemnation of private land at below market prices, taxpayer funded stadium for privately held baseball team.
For the S&L Bailout you need to go to Neil Bush and Silverado who fleeced the taxpayers for a cool $1B and who had a $200 million dollar lawsuit filed against him by federal regulators for gross negligence.
You can of course, toss in Enron if you wish to discuss being partners of a business scandal that involved legal shenanigans. Who was one of George's biggest financial supporter? Kenny Boy Lay who Bush later said, "uh Ken who?"
Innocent until proven guilty? You guys want to say that Rove was innocent but that Bill and Hillary were guilty Whitewater? You guys are beyond belief.
Haha, just heard the news about Rove by turning on Fox and seeing Barbara Boxer trying to keep a phony smile as she ranted and spun. I don't know why Karl Rove has become the devil to the left either. Did it start with that movie Bush's Brain? A lot is probably just that he's so smart. Or that when you keep losing elections you want to believe it's not you that's being rejected, it's that an "evil genius" is manipulating the system and the people. Whatever. Could it be that it's the Democrat voter who's being manipulated by their own party to get so worked up over Karl Rove because they don't have much postive to run on?
As for this: I would broaden that to say that if you ask ANYONE enough questions under oath, eventually they'll commit perjury (or at least, something arguably so).
It's true that perjury happens every day in courts across America, but I reject that it's so easy to commit perjury that any prosecutor could trap you and get you to intentionally lie about a material fact under oath. Maybe someone could come up with an outlandish scenerio where I'd commit perjury, but outside of that I never would.
That strikes me as a perfect summary of the liberal view of Rove
Do you mean that all liberals hold this view?
Mackan, the notion that Bush is completely incompetent convicts the entire US of stupidity in electing him. Many voted for Bush because the Democrats (incompetently, IMO) put forth a deeply flawed candidate. Bush does have some strengths -- he wouldn't be where he is now if he didn't.
This comment will make sense to the (self-named anonymous) person from--well, I have the location etc.--to whom it's directed:
I'm not "Jen" and DWM is not the "Jen's blog" referred to in this thread.
Nice try.
well when Ann put up her one line post this morning I know she was going to get a good return ratio on her investment with a zillion posts and counterposts for her one liner.
I bet she knew that as well, but didn't expect to have to referee all afternoon though.
For the record, on some Althouse thread somewhere, in response to a query by, I think, Elizabeth, I stated that I thought Rove should resign (I'm pretty sure that I said for various reasons, but I probably didn't specify; they mostly don't have to do with the Plame affair).
So I'm no fan.
But I've also thought for a long while that his being indicted was a very long shot, indeed. As a layperson only, of course, I wasn't seeing how charges of criminal wrongdoing against them were going to hold up. And, in fact, I don't think much of this whole scandal, or how the investigation and so forth has played out, on so many levels, for so many reasons.
This outcome doesn't surprise me; nor do the reactions from both sides.
In any case, it appears to me that the book is largely, if not wholly, closed on Rove, at least in this regard, and any other expectation is misguided, at best.
As for the White House commenting, or Rove, in particular, isn't it likely that he'll be called to testify in Libby's case? Which means, like all witnesses, he's probably under strict instructions NOT to comment. Or isn't that SOP?
I've gotten characterized as both Left and Righty over time--and sometimes with regard to the very same thing!--IRL and in the blogosphere for a long while (especially IRL).
Sure, that is the comment complaint/boast of the journalist. I piss everyone off, therefore I must be neutral and right!
But it's a fallacy. Most of the time it means you really do suck, and you are the only person who won't acknowledge that.
What "names" did I call you? Iam's Puppy Chow? Dear, you're my Kenny Boy, my pooty poot, my big time, my stretch, and most of all, my turdblossom. Just a nickname sweets.
After months and months of waiting, and numerous interviews, Fitzgerald's grand plans have fizzled out.
Although cheap at $1 million or so (in comparison to the $40M Satrr investigation), the use of a special prosecutor for 'politics by other means' is ultimately destructive to the body politic.
One begins to see that the Special of Special Prosecutor may have more in common with "underachieving" than "exceptional".
Oh, sheesh. I deleted one of my comments because it didn't make sense anymore, and now Q's doesn't.
Heh. Oh well. Off to do some sorting.
Mary: Yes, there are indeed a couple of occasions where I've disagreed, even called out.
Quick! Who can name the most obvious one?
Our hostess, by adding the Art to the post above us has created a freudian composition of art and what looks at a distance to be the caption:
Rove!
Once again, he escapes the forces of justice! Oh, the pain that will wrack the lefty blogosphere today!
The irony of this is amusing, I would expect it on quxxxo's blog.
Drill: LOL.
rereading my post I see an additional irony.
who is the man strapped down? Rove? I thought so at first, but he has escaped. Might it be lefty blogosphere?
we can each pick our preference. the ultimate in freudian choices
"neither of you have the courtesy to allow comments on your respective blogs." Bizarre!
Madison,
I don't want to belabor this, but there were plenty of comments, not yours I don't think, that the suicides of these probably innocent prisoners were prompted by despair and our uncivilized treatment and that it was wrong to take pleasure in Zarqawi's death. But that's my interpretation, not everyone's.
"Rove!"
That sounds like Rove! The Musical to me.
Snappy! It's got potential!
I'm seeing Hugh Jackman in the title role. Can we get Andrew Lloyd Weber? Can somebody talk to his people?
Patca: "Uncivilized"? That's a deliberate joke, right? According to the left, the only way to qualify as "civilization" is to agree with them about absolutely everything. If you don't have gay marriage and free medical care, along with dozens of other ludicrously arbitrary items (list subject to change without notice), you're not a civilization. But that's meaningless, because by that definition, no civilization has ever actually existed. If it did exist, it would succumb to invasion or collapse, because it would have no will to live or to defend itself. Even before the end came, it would have ceased to be a civilization because the left would have invented a whole new preposterous definition that excluded it.
In the real world, civilizations get exceedingly ugly when they think they must. That's not a bug; it's an essential design requirement. The alternative is barbarism. Life is not all nice. If you stop eating because you don't want to create poop, you are an idiot.
There's near-infinite room to debate any given policy, but let's drop this infantile nonsense about who's civilized and who isn't.
P. Froward: If you're looking for dancers, here's one who might be available.
"That's a deliberate joke, right?"
Yes, "despair" and "uncivilized" should have been in quotes, referring to their use in other threads.
Trying to read the tea leaves has been interesting here. I think in the end, Fitz knew he didn't have enough to prove purjury or obstruction of justice, because his major charge would have revolved around Rove voluntarily changing his story, based apparently on an email that was discovered later. As Rove pointed out, he apparently was fielding hundreds of calls a day, and it would not be surprising that he forgot one out of those, esp. months later. And that, in the end, was what Fitz would have had to overcome, to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Rove really had remembered that phone conversation, out of hundreds he was taking daily then.
The other problem that appears to have become evident through the Libby discovery motions is that any Rove prosecution would have to depend on Cooper's testimony, and the judge has already found it impeached (obviously, for you attorneys there, this is a question of fact for the jury - exactly how important were those differences between different Cooper stories). So, in a he-says/ he-says criminal case, Fitz would be swimming up stream with the credibility of one of his star witnesses.
I have always found it humorous though that Libby, the top flight lawyer, is the one who got caught up in the coverup.
Bruce: Is it something like.. Lawyers make the worst clients?
the White House is being held "accountable for its blatantly dishonest and unethical behavior" -- just check the polls.
Henry, I've never caught on to the joy of the dropping polls for Bush. I keep thinking they're months too late for any good to come of 'em. He's a lame duck now, so who cares what his poll numbers are? By the way--political parties in hell: verrrry funny!
Ann: I think I made a comment here that you deleted.
I apologize.
Pogo, thanks.
In a former life, I wrote well enough to be clear about such things.
I too have had a former life as a coherant writer. The more freshman composition papers I read, comment on, and grade, the worse my own prose seems to get. By the end of each semester I am reduced to short, monosyllabic phrases and gestures.
Make that "coherent."
As Rove pointed out, he apparently was fielding hundreds of calls a day
Color me suspicious. Let's say the man works 18 hours a day. An average phone call is -- what -- 5 minutes long? 2 minutes?
If he's taking 15 calls an hour, that's 270 over the course of an 18-hour day -- well within the bounds of 'hundreds'. He's also on the phone between 30 and 75 minutes each hour!
If Mr. Rove's phone habits are indicative of the rest of the White House, I think I know why the government is so inefficient!
A reaction from Talk Left and info regarding "a deal".
I will agree that 100 calls a day is a bit much. My impression is that he does work long hours and does talk to a lot of people during a day, but, still, with a 12.5 hour work day, that translates into 8 calls an hour, which is an average of 7.5 minues per call - which would not give him time for meetings, etc.
Nevertheless, Rove does talk to a lot of people every day on the phone, including a lot of reporters. More than almost anyone.
What if he talks most of the day and does 100 outgoing calls, while taking 200 incoming calls to his voice mail or those old pink phone slips.
More believable?
More believable?
I can't know for sure, I guess. The first thing I would've asked as a prosecutor, if a defendant threw out that vague 'hundreds' number, would be to quantify how long the phone calls are. How long do you work each day? They better match!
It's my impression, though, that many lawyers don't understand math very well. Maybe Mr. Fitzgerald is someone for whom a rapid scale analysis of numbers is difficult. And of course, I don't even know what was really said, I'm just reacting to what Bruce wrote!
vw: ckdept (!) As in the Check Department. Let me check the math.
Mackan:
You missed my point. IMO, Rove is smarter than most everyone. And the MSM never uses the word brilliant to describe him but it would if only he were a liberal.
For example, Clinton is regularly described as brilliant but Dick Cheney is never called brilliant.
Yet Cheney has the same or more brainpower as Clinton. Remember the Cheney -Edwards debate - cheney coolly eviscerated the so-called so smart trial lawyer.
It galls the MSM to admit any Republicans are smart.
The problem is with the Swift Boat thing is that it wasn't proven to be defamation. It might have been, but what we had was a he says/he says argument, and Kerry did little to back up his side of it. Most notably, over two years after he promised on national TV to release all of his military records, he still hasn't.
But we do know that at least some of Kerry's story was inaccurate. He wasn't in Cambodia Christmas of 1968 listening to president Nixon, first because Nixon wasn't president yet, secondly, because he would have been jailed for it, and third, because he ultimately admitted that his dates were wrong (and even then, his new story is questionable).
There is at least some other aspects of his story that just don't wash, even to this day. They just weren't going to put a green j.g. in charge of a three man skimmer. It just wasn't done. At a minimum, the mission commander would have gone out with him at least once (and claims to have been onboard the skimmer on most of its missions anyway).
So, calling their charges "defamation" is just blowing hot air. Kerry's claims were just as suspect, if not more so, than theirs were.
Besides, it was only their first ad that attacked Kerry's actual Vietnam service. The more devasting one had those clips from Kerry's testimony before Congress about atrocities being committed on a routine basis against the Vietnamese. That is the one that lost the votes of so many of the Vietnam vets. That may have been inconvenient, but it was hardly defamation, as it was Kerry's own voice.
Besides, what would you expect the President to say? That he condemmed the ads against Kerry, but condoned those against him that were just as nasty, if not more so? I think it silly to expect that. He was getting hit just as hard, if not harder, by 527 ads. Why the double standard? Why were inaccurate 527 ads against Bush ok, but those against Kerry not ok?
The reason that it is unlikely that a crime was actually committed in the disclosure of Plame's covert status is that not all the elements of such a crime were likely to be provable. The bigggest missing element was intent. But, given her maternal status, etc., it is also likely that she wouldn't have qualified anyway (i.e. the requirement that the covert agent be stationed overseas withhin the previous five years).
The relevant statute was drafted in response to a specific instance - that of an intentional disclosure of covert American agents overseas, where it appears that as a result of this, not only were they compromised, but some died.
For this reason, the statute is quite narrow - much to narrow to support a conviction of Rove, Libby, or even Cheney.
That left disclosure of classified information. But any prosecution there was most likely compromised by Cheney's involvement. He had the delegated power from the President to declassify anything he wanted to.
As a result of all of this, Fitz determined early on that no original crime had been committed. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. And that left crimes committed during the investigation, and thus the Libby indictment.
Again, let me repeat myself. The independant prosecutor determined, all on his own, without interferance from the Administration, that no original crimes had been committed. None. Claiming the contrary just makes somone look partisan and less than serious.
Mackan,
I for one, as a Vietnam Vet would never ever vote for Kerry after he accused me and my buddies of being war criminals, he said:
we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
He did that while still an officer in the US Navy. He also met with the enemy in Paris while officer in the US Navy.
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