Well, did you know about the Zouave-style uniforms in the Civil War?
No! That astounded me. It seems so unmilitary to go for a fashion craze.
१५ जून, २००६
How uniform does a uniform need to be?
We were talking about Civil War uniforms today -- a digression in a discussion of the Geneva Conventions and the requirement that a lawful combatant wear a uniform. How uniform do uniforms need to be to be uniforms, I asked, realizing that I know very little about uniforms. I was surprised to read recently that in the Civil War, some Wisconsin soldiers had gray uniforms, because they ran out of blue cloth.
Well, did you know about the Zouave-style uniforms in the Civil War?
No! That astounded me. It seems so unmilitary to go for a fashion craze.
Well, did you know about the Zouave-style uniforms in the Civil War?
No! That astounded me. It seems so unmilitary to go for a fashion craze.
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That is hilarious. The thought of the militia getting together to talk about the style of uniforms. Then getting their wives to sew them all up for them. Ha! Talk about garret troopers.
To answer the question, uniforms have to be totally uniform. Never watch a show about soldiers with a soldier. I don't CARE where that stupid pin is supposed to go or how wrong the rank is!
"To answer the question, uniforms have to be totally uniform."
Well, but remember the guys on horseback in Afghanistan? Apparently, there was debate within the military about how far off uniform they could go. And, I was told, certain high-ranking officials have changed their uniforms; Douglas MacArthur was known for doing something odd to his hat.
I learned about the Zouave uniform when I read Gone With The Wind -- in the book, there's actually a character who marries a soldier who wears that uniform. So exotic!
Ann - That's a good point. Special Forces don't have to wear the uniform. They're supposed to blend, and win the hearts and minds of the people. They get to mix and match and accessorize. That was actually a big part of the draw for my husband to try out for SF.
Patton, I think, did something with his hat, too. I guess once you've got a few stars, you get some leeway. :)
As for the rest of them, its ridiculous. My husband used to hover over my shoulder to make sure I was ironing the collar in just EXACTLY the right way. And he has to break out the ruler to get his dress uniform squared away.
But I should add that regular Army types get really frosted about SF guys wearing what they like. I don't know if its jealousy or disdain but it really rubs them the wrong way.
Pick up any picture book of military uniforms and you'll see that soldiers throughout history have been incredibly fashion-conscious. Tons of brocade, and gold leaf and colorful ribbons and feathers throughout the 19th century. It's been somewhat toned down since the 20th century, but not as much as you'd think. General Pershing foppishly insisted that U.S. officers adopt the Sam Browne belt. It was purely ornamental and its use created a leather shortage for military necessities, like horse bridles.
Patton actually designed a new uniform for the nascent U.S. Army armored corps. I'm kind of shocked that I can't find a link for it online, but it was a doozy: dark olive with flashy yellow piping, and a 30's style leather football helmet on top.
Schuft - What was with Patton and the hat? It's bugging me! Was it that he jammed the rank in all haphazard? That sounds vaguely familiar.
RogerA - You're right about the BDUs. They were actually NOT allowed to be starched until about 3 years ago. But everyone starched the heck out of them anyway.
We're starting all over with the ACUs. Not supposed to be ironed, not supposed to be starched. Whatever.
Oh, but RogerA, I should add that they really held fast to the DO NOT starch the DCUs (Desert Camoflauge Uniform) rule. Ruins the doesn't-show-up-on-night-vision-ness.
I suppose in the heat of battle, when a musket-bearing guy in Zouave-style uniform is coming at you, well, then I might be in fear of the Rebel Aladdin. But, um, otherwise....
Verif. Word: saylr: As in Hey, saylr, new in town?
Hmm, RogerA. The more I think about it, the more I remember Patton being really fussy about uniforms in the movie. Like you said - a class of his own.
I must be thinking of someone else. Because I'm picturing somebody jamming stars into the front of their kevlar haphazardly.
MacArthur sounds like the antithesis of my husband. He squared his uniform away back when he had to. But he sneers at the garret trooper types. Now that he doesn't have to anymore, you won't catch him near an iron or a tin of polish.
Shuft,
When I was at Knox, we called that the Green Hornet look.
As an aside, the French Army is the worst about flashy uniforms, or should I say best dressed. I remember a good anecdote about the French, circa 1954, during the French Indo-China problem. American's fresh out of Korea, where sartorial splendor was not a high point, commented that the French were always very flashly with lots of braid and medals. A general responded that, if you had lost as many battles and wars as the French had (in succession, back to when? the American Revolution?), then you needed to motivate the troops with something other than victories.
PS: before some smart ass decides to correct me, you really can't call WWI and WWII French victories given their losses. and of course they lost in 1870 and again in Mexico. and eventually several times in the wars of Napoleon.
PPS: Of course, they won the French Revolution, but that was because they were fighting the French. :)
Very Swiss Guard-esque. Eddie Izzard would have a field day with those.
Tiggeril: Yeah. I've been waiting for the first "don't ask, don't tell" joke. (And I know Eddie's not gay.)
Hmmmm... seein' a guy dressed like that would make me want to shoot him. It'd be an act of mercy.
Fashion victim? I'll save yooooouuu!
About zouaves. etc.....
Uniforms, 300+ years ago, met uniform within a regiment. The regiment would be dressed however the colonel wanted it to be. The idea of an army-wide uniform started with Oliver Cromwell's New Model Army in 1645--the beginning of British redcoats. Even then each regiment had distinctive colors for the linings, lapels, etc.
Are those knickers, or lederhosen?
I love knickers, kool lots (sp?) jhaudpurs, pedal pushers, gauchos, cigarette pants, hostess pants (for all those "smart" dinner parties), parachute pants etc..
Remember "skorts"? Those were a skirt from the front, and shorts from behind.
Groovy!
Peace, Maxine
Stonewall Jackson wore his old blue VMI uniform through the early part of the war.
Wasp - Garet Trooper is a song by SSG Barry Sadler.
And, you know, I don't mind making fun of a certain type of soldier (best characterized by the Garet Trooper song). But I don't buy into the whole REMF/pogue/garrison thing. My husband couldn't do his job without those guys - they serve their purpose.
These Zoaves look like they're from the musical of Birth of a Nation!
For the ultimate in self-promoting uniform alterations, go no further than "Gen" Custer!
Note the velvet fabric, sailor's collar, and utterly superfluous gold braid on the sleeves!
Funny, in a personal and idiosyncratic way, that this post show appear today, when I was sweating over how to perfectly place the initial patches on my son's very first "formal uniform": for Tiger Cub Scouts.
Something about uniforms make me feel as if I need to straighten up and fly right: in this case, no shortcuts for you, missy (mommy)! Match that thread color! You'll have to watch those stitches! And so forth.
Sigh.
Those zouave uniforms were the height of male fashion in the early 1860s. We forget what peacocks our male ancestors were, and having a stylish uniform like that was a good recruiting tool for a regiment -- "join up with us and you get to wear one of these." Apparently the girls liked the way they looked on a man. But so did the enemy: Those bright colorts made you an easy target.
Ain't they dashing, but easy targets as already pointed out.
Jennifer, I admire your restraint in not blurting out "Iron your own damn collars!" :)
Jennifer and Callimachus are right. You don't want to wear a sidearm, carry a radio, wear a Sam Browne belt, or even get saluted, within view of a sniper. Anything that says 'officer' says 'shoot me first.'
Now that I think about it, that uniform has an early Mighty Morphin Power Rangers vibe to it.
"Let's do it Sabba... Tigerzord Power Now!"
One of the best things about being a man is that fashion is derived from a most brutally efficient environment. Suits move well, store lots, take you through a range of climates, come with first aid equipment (tie and handkerchief) and make you look good.
The best aspects are the little details, how the vents in a jacket help you sit (in a chair, or best on a stool, just as on a horse as per the design) with the same look, the pockets angled for access and placed to work seated or standing, inside pockets...
All in all, much better than the design for women's clothes, which while wonderful to look at are much less functional (or, rather, have a much different function...).
As to what uniforms look better... winning is immensely aesthetically pleasing. Though I do find that much of the British Colonial kit looks darn good, as do more traditional Navy outfits. Overalls, camo, and the ragged local rags that work so well for SF aren't quite as aesthetically pleasing nor as useful in an urban setting.
There is a rule of thumb that says the side with the simplier dress uniform (or none) is more likely to win. Ever seen an Israeli dress uniform? Neither have I, but their tankers overalls are pretty good.
Another rule of thumb is that Army's that demilitarize their uniforms (make them more civilian) aren't likely to win many wars. Think about the Dutch for example. Demilling the uniforms tends to accompany devaluing the Army and directly impacts morale and fighting ability.
Changing subjects slightly as we head into summer:
Washington DC before air conditioning was a pretty miserable place in the Summer. So much so that the pre-WWII Britsh regulations for Military Attaches authorized shorts and pith helemts for officers assigned during the Summer to DC.
Drill SGT - Speaking of uniform changes and military success, what do you think of the ACUs?
My wife has some. She's a lawyer, not an officer though :) I have a difficult time getting used to the look.
They are a visual distraction, but not having looked at the science of it, I can't tell you whether they work better to break up the human shape thaan the older camo shapes and colors.
A few points that I don't think have been covered:
The Zouave uniforms were popularized in part as a result of the success of the allies (Sardinia, France, Great Britain, Ottoman Empire) against the Russians in the Crimean war.
While the brightly colored uniforms don't look very military now, they were designed to meet an entirely different set of imperatives than current uniforms. Before the widespread adoption of the Minie "ball" allowed a reasonable rate of fire with rifled guns, the effective range of small arms was somewhere in the 50-100 yard range, and then only en masse and unaimed. This meant that units stood in close order and in very close proximity to the enemy. When you are a part of a three-deep line two miles long, hiding isn't really possible, and so morale was the primary goal. Brightly colored and easily recognizable uniforms improved both morale and unit recognition.
With the rise of rifled small arms, the range of lethality and the ability to aim at a single person changed the battlefield. This was perhaps the greatest tactical change seen in the American Civil War. Interestingly, though the Europeans had many observers in the US during the ACW, they really didn't learn any lessons from us, but had to pay in blood for the same lessons during the Austro-Prussian and Franco-Prussian wars and subsequent conflicts.
Not only did Wisconsin and many other northern states have grey-uniformed troops, many southern militia units were dressed in blue (the basic uniform color of US troops). In addition, the early-war Confederate flags were very difficult to differentiate from Union flags on the battlefield. The result was quite a few instances of friendly fire and a few cases where enemy troops were able to fire by surprise from positions in the open. (See 1st Bull Run, for instance.)
Finally, I recently read an article indicating that the US Army is reverting to its traditional blue uniforms for at least dress occasions. It's nice to see the traditional color revived.
MadisonMan: LOL. I never had to - it usually ended up like this: No, no, no, you're doing it wrong. Move over. Same result - no snit. :)
Doug,
The Army (for the last 40+ years at least) has always used both "Dress Blue" and "Mess Dress"
uniforms
So at least the color has always been something akin to civil war blue. The cut of the uniforms has chnaged serveral times however. Today, the Dress Blue is styled like a civilian suit, with badges, and breaid/etc. Mess Dress sort of has a navy braid / Tux look to it.
Mess Dress (Army)
http://www.supertrooper.com/messdress.htm
Army Service Dress Blue Uniform Update:
Updated: 6/5/06 The Army has announced transitioning the Dress Blue Uniform to an Army Service Dress Blue Uniform. The change to AR-670-1 and other details about the accessories are yet to be determined.
Patton was an incredible priss, and not only about uniforms. I tried to read War As I Knew It, but as he knew it it seemed to be a series of formal receptions. But Bradley (and lots of others qualified to judge) considered him one hell of a general, so whatever worked for him suits me just fine.
How about the Napolonic Wars, for uniforms? A dozen armies of variegated fancy orchids in furs, on horseback, slashing each others' heads off. And they kept it up, with regular costume changes, for twenty-odd years.
Soldiers have always been peacocks. Who can get away with it more?
OK, John,
I was not a Drill Insructor (USMC), I was a Drill Sergeant (USA).
The USMC Dress uniform is spectacular, yet conservative in that it hasn't changed much in quite a while. It is an exception to my rule of thumb for certain, but I think you can sense there is an underlying rightness to the inverse relationship between Army's that care about fancy clothes and about Army's that care about fighting.
With your USAF examples, you prove my point about civilianizing uniforms at the peril of demilitarizng your service. In the work that the USAF does, it can get away with effectively high tech civilians in uniform calling everybody by their first names, only because it's few real warriors still maintain a close nit warrior ethos (in the air at least).
Drill Sgt:
"has always used both 'Dress Blue' and 'Mess Dress' uniforms"
Yes, and it's a good-looking uniform. (There're also dress white and dress black uniforms.) Perhaps I misunderstood the press release, but I understood the description of the uniform as "Service Dress" to mean that the uniform would replace the green Class A's.
It's entirely (too) possible that I'm mistaken, but if I'm not, I'd certainly take a return to blue Class A and B uniforms as a positive step. There's quite a bit of tradition in Army Blue.
Doug,
As I read the announcement here
http://www.marlowwhite.com/uniform-changes.html
and
http://www.army.mil/symbols/uniforms/
Service Green, what was called Dress Blue, and Mess Dress White go away, replaced by a uniform, blue in color, cut and using accoutrement's that are similar to the Green uniform.
Mess Dress Blue survives I think.
In my nearly 40 years around the army, I have never heard of a black uniform. Black beret yes.
A US Army visual display of uniforms over the past 200 years
http://www.army.mil/symbols/uniforms/timeline.html
My mistake on the black uniform. While the white mess jacket is used with black trousers, that's not what I was thinking of. (And what I was thinking of doesn't seem to exist.)
Per Wikipedia (with the appropriate reservations about accuracy), the blue Service Dress uniform is intended to replace the green Class A and B uniforms and the blue and white Dress uniforms in the relatively near future.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_army#Uniforms
Johnny,
There is a much more recent example of your Roman scrub brush.
If you look at WWII footage or movies like Saving Private Ryan, Longest Day or Band of Brothers, look at the backs of the helmets.
Officers have a vertical white stripe and SGTs had a horizontal white stripe, just like a centurian had 2500 years before.
Theory is that when everybody has their head down, and facing forward, you wont see faces, but officers and NCOs will tend toward the front. regular troops can see the guy waying and yelling "follow me" and know that even if he isn't my officer, he is an officer and support the mission.
Great Army saying:
Lead!
Follow!, or
Get the hell out of the way!
The zouaves were a feature of the French and French-influenced craze for "light infantry" tactics, which featured a lot of emphasis on gymnastics and physical fitness, so the baggy pants were supposed to be functional for the special pace - essentially, the job - which was a distinctive feature of zouave training. Ellsworth's touring zouave company, which did so much to popularize zouave fashion among the state militias in the years before the war, were a great draw - sort of like a martial circus, tumblers and acrobats with muskets.
The zouaves got a bad reputation during the war, mostly I think because the uniforms were so distinctive that in the course of a number of memorable early-war routs, in which the guys with the flashiest and most identifiable uniforms got blamed for the general failure, while the guys in standard blue disappeared into the general, anonymous azure herd. The most famous case of this would be the final stampede at First Bull Run, supposedly started by a New York unit, the Fire Zouaves, formed from a number of NYC firefighting companies.
Most units which affected zouave fashions weren't actually trained in the tactics to go along with the silly pants. But I wouldn't exaggerate just how important the bright colors were in terms of survivability. As far as I can tell, units in actual zouave colors didn't tend to incur higher casualty rates, and after the first volley generally the other side were visible as rows of boots below the billowing clouds of black-powder smoke. *Maybe* your zouave unit would be distinguishable by the red fabric bloused into the boot-tops rather than blue pantaloons hanging loose over top of them, but I doubt it did much one way or the other. The real disadvantage was how unheroic they looked bursting out the backside of the battle-cloud in retreat, and that was largely the result of the contingent impression of a few early accidents of appearance.
I just heard Garet Trooper by Sgt. Saddler of Ballad of the Green Berets fame. Didn't know what the song was referring to. Then I googled it and got this thread. Actually, there is a character in the movie (not the TV show) M*A*S*H who is on the blue teams side. He is a major and wears colored service ribbons on his fatigues at all times. Probably on his bath robe too. This is a Garet trooper? I also saw a soldier in the airport who waqs wearing all 3 types of jump wings all at once! The Drill Sgts there took him somewhere I didn't see. Obviously a fake.
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