Althouse: At the Veterans Museum.

२९ मे, २००६

At the Veterans Museum.

In Madison, Wisconsin.

Counterpoint, a shop window;

३५ टिप्पण्या:

Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: Look more closely at the pictures. Even Vietnam is there in the museum pictures. The museum covers all the wars that Wisconsinites fought in. Obviously, the difference in tone between the museum and the store window is clear. Why are you seeing hate, by the way? I offered no commentary other than "counterpoint." And the store window has peace signs and John Lennon material that clearly transcends opposition to the Iraq war. There is a sticker that says "Good Terrorist, Bad Terrorist," with pictures of Bush and Osama Bin Laden. Why don't you look a little more closely and think a little more before you make hateful accusations of hate? And look in a mirror, look at yourself, before writing things about others. Well, this post was kind of a mirror, and you did see yourself, but you didn't recognize what you saw.; २९/५/०६, ३:०६ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: "I liked you better in huge glasses."

A man who says things like that to a woman is a sexist. It's in the same category with statements like "don't worry your pretty little head." You need to look long and hard at yourself, man.; २९/५/०६, ३:१२ PM
Jim Hu म्हणाले...: Expecially since, to the extent that your readers only know you via your blogging, most of us didn't know you at all when you had those glasses.

Which means liking you now or then is only based on appearance.; २९/५/०६, ३:१७ PM
vnjagvet म्हणाले...: reasonator uses some of the same rhetorical techniques as our friend jaquxxo, doesn't (s?)he.; २९/५/०६, ३:२७ PM
Beth म्हणाले...: My father, along with 3 of his 5 brothers, served in WWII. He was decorated for his bravery, and for being wounded. He went on to serve 20 years, and then another 20 in the Red Cross, working for veterans' healthcare, and other rights. He was passionately pro-serviceman, but also passionately against our actions in Vietname. Three of my four brothers also served, one in Vietnam. Two of them oppose our presence in Iraq. There's no opposition in being patriotic, pro-military, and against specific military engagements or tactics undertaken by our country.; २९/५/०६, ३:५७ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: Speaking of prisoners of war, one thing I learned at the museum was that during the Civil War, 80% of the North's prisoners died in captivity.; २९/५/०६, ४:३१ PM
Beth म्हणाले...: I got an email earlier today wishing me a happy Yankee holiday. Ann's note, along with the email, reminded me that Memorial Day began as a post-Civil War recognition of fallen Northern soldiers.

Despite my family being Southern, most of my ancestors fought with the North--just so's you know, what with that Yankee comment.; २९/५/०६, ४:४६ PM
knox म्हणाले...: It's kind of like a virtual stalking, really.

That's exactly what it is.

I mean, how long has it been going on? months?

The tactics employed: the name-changing, the personal attacks, the need to post on almost every subject, coupled with the need to re-direct the subject to his agenda... the obvious disgust for our host as well as the entire community here... and more than anything else, the flat-out bizarro refusal to just go away.

All of quckso's partisan bullsh*t aside, there really is something at once creepy and sad, narcissistic and pathetic, about his continued and hostile presence here. Weird doesn't even begin to describe it. I suspect "loser" might be a good start, though.; २९/५/०६, ४:५७ PM
The Drill SGT म्हणाले...: Ann,

I had not realized that it was that high. At Andersonville, the landmark Confederate prison it was 29% deaths. Perhaps there were others before they were transferred to that location.

Brendan,

I agree. A guy I admire, McCain had issues with the war before and since we got into it, but his sound bite still reverberates with me:

"We're in it, we've got to win it!"

Whether or not you agree about the reasons for our initial entry into Iraq, we can't quit now before we stabilize the country.; २९/५/०६, ५:१२ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I used to think that, like most successful trolls, quxxo continued to post here because people invariably responded to him. Years of experience with such people led me to believe that the only real solution was for Ann to mercilessly delete any post he makes as soon as possible, because it is almost impossible to get everyone participating in an internet discussion to agree not to respond to someone.

These days, I think of him less as a troll and more as a mentally unbalanced individual in desperate need of treatment before he harms himself or others.; २९/५/०६, ५:१२ PM
The Drill SGT म्हणाले...: Knoxgirl,

I was thinking the same thing.

The lad needs some anger management therapy.

He's one sick puppy.; २९/५/०६, ५:१४ PM
Palladian म्हणाले...: Let's quit talking about that entity (you know who). It just confirms that it was successful in completely poisoning this well, which is its intention.

To any vets reading this, thank you for your service, and to those soldiers who aren't here to read this, may the memory of your sacrifices for this freedom be eternal.; २९/५/०६, ५:१६ PM
chuck b. म्हणाले...: Cool museum! I love those dioramas. I like how they're lit up too. Dioramas are more for kids I guess, but I still like them.

One Memorial Day when I was living in Georgia I drove down to Andersonville, the site of a notorious Civil War POW camp, now the only nat'l park dedicated to all American POWs. Noone wanted to go with me, so I went alone.

I walked the perimeter of the camp under the hot Georgia sun and thought about the people who were held there, exposed to the elements for a year or more while they slowly starved.

Being a prisoner of war must be absolutely the most terrifying thing.; २९/५/०६, ५:३८ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: Maybe the museum got the 80% number wrong, but that's what it said. Presumably, a lot of men died of diseases. I did see a picture of a man who was so starved that I had to lean in close to see how it could even be a man. It had a face but otherwise looked like a skeleton, right down to the kneecaps and dual bones in the lower legs. It was worse than any Nazi death camp survivor photo I've ever seen.; २९/५/०६, ५:५४ PM
The Drill SGT म्हणाले...: Ann,
Here's the USPS site for Andersonville:

http://www.nps.gov/ande/; २९/५/०६, ५:५७ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: ब्लॉग प्रशासकाने ही टिप्पण्णी हटविली आहे.; २९/५/०६, ६:०७ PM
The Drill SGT म्हणाले...: Most the civil war deaths wre starvation, in the South at least. The South overall was on starvation rations, and in the days before the Geneva Convention, prisoners were getting less than the general (starving) population; २९/५/०६, ६:०८ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: BTW, did anyone else read sippican cottage's touching Memorial Day Weekend post?
http://sippicancottage.blogspot.com/2006/05/have-pleasant-memorial-day-weekend.html; २९/५/०६, ६:०८ PM
The Drill SGT म्हणाले...: On this Memorial Day, I was just watching an ABC news piece on the Old Guard. The Army Regiment that guards Arlington Cemetery, and "plants" veterans.

I was remembering a "good" anti-war flick called "Gardens of Stone" about the Old Guard during the Vietnam War.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093073/; २९/५/०६, ६:११ PM
Joseph म्हणाले...: According to the book Elmira: Death Camp of the North, the Civil War prison camp in Elmira, NY, had the highest death rate of any prison camp in the North: 25%. The overall death rate of all prison camps in the North was just over 11%; in the Sourth, it was just over 15%.; २९/५/०६, ६:१५ PM
reader_iam म्हणाले...: I don't know if it's precisely accurate to say that Memorial Day ( Decoration Day) was established only to honor Union soldiers, per se. My understanding was that it was the South which refused to observe that day, preferring instead to honor that's side dead on a different day, which is what took place until after the WWI.

As for the prison camps: Years ago, my parents on a number of occasions took my brother and me to Ft. Delaware on Pea Patch Island, DE, which was used as a prison camp for confederate POWs. It came to be known as the "Andersonville of the North." Visiting and touring the preserved fort/prison, especially the underground cells, was quite the eye-opener!

Some have claimed that Pea Patch was even worse than Andersonville.

Interestingly, though, when I googled to confirm that it was still open for visitors, I came across 2000 book which appears to be an effort to debunk Pea Patch Island's infamy. Coincidentally enough, one of its co-authors is an old boss of mine, back when I worked as a daily journalist.

Weird, small world this is!!!!; २९/५/०६, ६:५३ PM
reader_iam म्हणाले...: Sorry for the OT, but this has been a day of weird coincidences via the 'net, with this just being the latest, so I'm a bit agog.

The referenced "old boss" also supervised, at various times, the person at whose place I guestblog, who is himself and published civil-war history book author.

So interesting, the layers of, ahem, "linkage" via the 'net, and not in the page link sense.; २९/५/०६, ६:५८ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: I live just a few blocks from Camp Randall, where 1,000 Civil War prisoners were held. I see that 120 of them died.; २९/५/०६, ६:५९ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: If you click on the photo you can get to much larger versions and you can read everything.; २९/५/०६, ७:२९ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: John Jenkins, those things are in the shop window because they sell, I'm guessing. There's no way of knowing the shopkeeper's view on the war, is there?

When my great-great-grandfather was taken prisoner at a battle on Whitewater River (the same one the Clintons made famous), my great-great-grandmother went to tend to him.

I was bummed today because I was out biking and missed the shooting at the Confederate Cemetery in Forest Hills. (They have a salute every Memorial Day).; २९/५/०६, ८:४१ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Just a footnote: In Great-great-grandfather's regiment, 67 died on the battle field. 321 died from disease. Those are the totals for the enlisted men.

I guess I'm curious, then -- I'll have to sometime go check out the Vet Museum -- to see how the disease death aspect is addressed for earlier wars. It's not something I really think about when I consider Civil War mortality, and I guess I should.; २९/५/०६, ८:४९ PM
Sloanasaurus म्हणाले...: There will always be people in this country who hate the military. They think the volunteers are all fools - going off to fight in Mr. Madison's...I mean Mr. Lincoln's...whoops...I mean Mr. Bush's war. Some of them masquerade on this website. The only time they care about casualties is when they can use it politically to dishearten the people who actually do care.

It makes little difference. We will also always have people who hate because of race, gender, etc... I am just grateful to live in a country where there still is a lot of motivation for people to volunteer to join up and fight for causes such as freedom and liberty. As long as that motivation is there, we will survive as a country and as a civilization. What other country has freed more people from the bonds of tyranny in the history of mankind. What other country sends its sons off to foreign lands to bring liberty to places they can't even find on a map.

Take time to see the world with eyes open (and your history books open) and you will see that America is the greatest force for good ever to exist in history.

We owe much of that to our military.; २९/५/०६, ९:३३ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: This post represents my experience, being in Madison, where this museum feels very incongruous. The last picture isn't something I went looking for. I came out of the museum and was walking back to my car, the usual route down State Street, and saw this window. I hadn't been planning to take more pictures and I wasn't looking for something to make a counterpoint. I used the photograph because for me it seemed to complete the picture of what there was to see in Madison. Putting the photos together here creates something for readers to complete in their own minds. I knew that would happen, of course, and I was interested to see what people would say. It was an accidental juxtaposition in real life for me, a matter of walking down a familiar street. I offered little text. You put things together in your own mind. You saw a challenge and fleshed it out. That's interesting. Reasonator saw hate mongering. Anyway, I understand the argument that this isn't a proper Memorial Day post -- that there's some concept like that. The same with the previous post. There's supposedly some protocol for the holiday. I never noticed Americans being so abstemious about the holiday. How much of this is defensiveness from anti-military types who were hoping to avoid any criticism on the day? A lot, I think.; ३०/५/०६, ६:३१ AM
michael farris म्हणाले...: The counterpoint to me is that the US is one of the (very) few countries to have a large, powerful military _and_ a vocal minority which feels free to publicly criticize individual military/government policies/actions. That's an uncommon feat and Americans have every right be proud of it.

Dissenters (although they can be a royal pain in the ass, yes) are the canaries in the coalmine. Be glad they're there and visible, start worrying when they're not.

verfication word: Jikeffor, a small island in the artic, scene of an unimportant skirmish between German and Icelandic forces in WWII.; ३०/५/०६, ६:४५ AM
Sloanasaurus म्हणाले...: Althouse, I think it was a fine post for the context of your blog. There is no one on here who reads and posts who has the right to be offended (including yourself).

Your photo of the anti-war shop is a reminder. It's a good thing to know that there are people out there who passionatly hate America. Further, it's a good thing to know that people make their living passionately hating America, which is why we must take such hating seriously.; ३०/५/०६, ८:१० AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Further, it's a good thing to know that people make their living passionately hating America, which is why we must take such hating seriously.

What could be more American than making a living selling effluvia to the masses? How is that hating America? Reserve your animus for the people who buy that stuff -- don't hate the person who sees a market and exploits it.; ३०/५/०६, ९:३६ AM
Beth म्हणाले...: Sloan, please explain how being anti-war means "hating America." That seems to be the rightwing phrase du jour.; ३०/५/०६, ११:१८ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Ann, your post was at the very least manipulative in a manner you may not have intended and that you should clarify.

The title of your post was "At the Veteran's Museum", but it becomes clear only late in your comment thread that this wasn't the Museum's giftshop.

Just down the street from the UC Berkeley School of Public Health are a dozen head shops. And your point is?

You speak of people projecting their thoughts onto your tabula rasa, Rorschach posts. But when you write This post represents my experience, being in Madison, where this museum feels very incongruous, isn't that exactly what you are doing?

What is incongruous to you is probably not to many other people, liberal and conservative alike.

I have never been to Madison, but I lived in Berkeley for ten years, and if the Bay Area can proudly host dozens if not hundreds of celebrations, memorials, and museums to our soldiers, I find it hard to imagine that Madison cannot.

Contrary to you and your readers' comments, liberals love America, liberals are very patriotic, and liberals commemorate Memorial Day.

Ann, to the soldiers and families involved, the fallen weren't Democrats, nor Republicans, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Immigrants, or Blue Bloods. They were our best.; ३०/५/०६, २:४६ PM
West Coast Independent म्हणाले...: I realize that I’m seriously off base here, but am I the only one or did anyone else think of Paul Simon’s “Me and Julio Down by the School Yard?” when they saw the poster in the third picture

The mama pajama rolled out of bed, and she ran to the police station
When the papa found out, he began to shout, and he started the investigation
It's against the law, it was against the law
What the mama saw, it was against the law.
The mama looked down and spit on the ground ev'ry time my name gets mentioned
The papa say "Oy, if I get that boy
I'm gonna stick him in the house of detention."
I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm goin',
I'm on my way, I'm takin' my time, but I don't know where.

Goodbye to Rosie, the Queen of Corona
See you, me and Julio down by the schoolyard
See you, me and Julio down by the schoolyard

In a couple of days they come and take me away
But the press let the story leak
And when the radical priest come to get me released
We's all on the cover of Newsweek
Well, I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm goin'
I'm on my way, I'm takin' my time, but I don't know where

Goodbye to Rosie, the Queen of Corona
See you, me and Julio down by the schoolyard
See you, me and Julio down by the schoolyard
See you, me and Julio down by the schoolyard

Well, back to the serious business of solving the worlds problems on Ann’s Blog.

:); ३१/५/०६, १:५३ AM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: West Coast: Thanks! I didn't think of that, but now that you point it out it's so obvious.; ३१/५/०६, ७:०९ AM