Althouse: Those Wisconsin referenda on bringing home the troops.

५ एप्रिल, २००६

Those Wisconsin referenda on bringing home the troops.

The results.

४५ टिप्पण्या:

J म्हणाले...: "Most of the anti-war referendums sought an immediate "orderly and rapid withdrawal" of troops. They were sponsored by the Wisconsin Green Party and the Wisconsin Network for Peace and Justice. Activists in each town gathered signatures to qualify them for the ballot."

One of the few areas of near consensus (politically) I've seen on Iraq is that a civil war would rapidly ensue if we pulled out now. Given that assumption, is it really accurate to call these referendums "anti-war"?; ५/४/०६, ९:१२ AM
al म्हणाले...: Wow - clueless people in cheeseland.

Not surprising when the MSM only tells half the story.; ५/४/०६, ९:१६ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: It bugs me to see "referendums" in the news stories. Thank you, Ann, for using "referenda" -- it must be counter to the AP style book, though.

It struck me as I was voting that the wording in Madison was nebulous -- we were voting on whether the City Council should pass a motion on the anti-war sentiment, weren't we? (This is what I get for voting at 7 AM and not paying attention).; ५/४/०६, ९:३१ AM
goesh म्हणाले...: Yes, the cheeseheads have spoken. Cut and run. They safely nestle in their rustic, quaint little buroughs and enclaves of curd and whey, safely nibbling like shy mice in a barn, hunkered down in hay. Nibble, nibble, nibble, able only to squeak and squeal in abject, helpless terror when directly confronted with ravaging cats and vicious farm boys with boards out to splatter their passive guts all over the floor of the barn.; ५/४/०६, ९:३२ AM
Mark Haag म्हणाले...: OK, al, tell us the specific details of the other half of the story. Places, examples, etc. of what is going well,that can be fact-checked, not just generalized comments that "the good news isn't being reported". Surely it is important enough that some republicans can gather that information and put it out there without the MSM. By the way, I was not necessarily in favor of the referenda, I am just in favor of the truth.; ५/४/०६, ९:३७ AM
Jennifer म्हणाले...: Quietnorth: I posted a boatload of links for you the last time you asked that question. Refer back to the "There's blogs" post.; ५/४/०६, ९:४७ AM
Thorley Winston म्हणाले...: Yeah, yeah but how did the dog neutering referendum turn out?; ५/४/०६, १०:०० AM
Robert Holmgren म्हणाले...: "The referendums have no legal weight, but Georgia Duerst-Lahti, a political science professor at Beloit College in Beloit, Wis., called them "the ultimate poll" on public attitudes about the war."
Anyone who's ever been to Beloit has to discount statements made by professors who choose to live there.; ५/४/०६, १०:०० AM
Max Power म्हणाले...: I say who cares. Way too much time has been spent on this.; ५/४/०६, १०:०३ AM
Dash म्हणाले...: This is just more manufactured news. The people who put these referendums forward are the people who have been against the war from the start. That they turned out to vote for their side in a very low turnout by-election is no surprise.; ५/४/०६, १०:१९ AM
Sloanasaurus म्हणाले...: "...If you accept the proposition that the most patriotic thing that an American can do is vote...",

Who accepts this? What a fraud. This is leftism at its highest. Would it be patriotic to go and vote for the end of the republic?

Patriotism means putting country ahead of self. Merely voting is not patriotism.

If the United States Congress votes overwhelmingly to go to war in Iraq (which they did), and further voted almost unanimously not to pull the troops out, it becomes unpatriotic to try and undermine the policy created from these decisions.; ५/४/०६, १०:५५ AM
jeff म्हणाले...: Were any of these votes anywhere near Ft. McCoy?

If so... how did that one go.; ५/४/०६, ११:०० AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: The article doesn't state how many people actually came out and voted. How many voted besides the anti-war activists?; ५/४/०६, ११:०४ AM
Icepick म्हणाले...: Basset, why are you implying that Goesh's comment called you a traitor? It clearly does not. (And the fact that you do so in a sly manner instead of saying it directly just makes it worse.) I am sick and tired of you jerks on the left claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is calling you a traitor. That is an argument every bit as bad as someone calling you a traitor for having a different position. It's a horrendous bad faith argument on your part.; ५/४/०६, ११:०७ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Were any of these votes anywhere near Ft. McCoy?

If so... how did that one go.

There was a graphic in the WSJ this morning (that's Wisconsin State Journal, by the way :) ) that showed where the referenda ran.

Here is a link. This might be to the graphic itself, or to a gallery, in which the graphic is one of 6.

I'm not sure how low the turnouts were. In Madison, the school board elections drew 35000 votes total.; ५/४/०६, ११:२४ AM
Goatwhacker म्हणाले...: (from the article)The referendums have no legal weight, but Georgia Duerst-Lahti, a political science professor at Beloit College in Beloit, Wis., called them "the ultimate poll" on public attitudes about the war.

They would be a poll only as they applied to the individual communities but can not necessarily be extrapolated any further than that. I would guess this was not a random sampling of Wisconsin towns but rather towns were selected that stood a good chance of passage.; ५/४/०६, ११:२५ AM
goesh म्हणाले...: No, no, I am not calling the Cheeseheads traitors. They are more given to pudginess and being contented and somewhat isolated folk. Curds and whey have always sustained them but they have grown passive with with their heads against cow's udders these many generations and other than some ice hockey,they necessarily must avoid aggression at any cost. You see, in my day I too had my head against a cow's udder a few times and I know that sudden changes and disruption in farm life and the passive routine for farmers and their bovines impacts milk production.
Cheeseheads fear gauntness more than anything, gauntness in their cows,state and national budgets. They would rather save a nickle and ignore people being put through plastic shredders in distant lands. That's the bottom line with Cheeseheads I fear. If Brett Favre wasn't one of my heros, I damn well might boycott Wisconsin cheese.; ५/४/०६, ११:५० AM
Mark Haag म्हणाले...: Jennifer;
on those good news links;

Thanks, I just discovered the links and I have gone through about a 'third' of a boatful.

I appreciate the work you did.; ५/४/०६, ११:५७ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Goesh, you may impugn Wisconsin all you wish. It's typical of folks who don't live here. But here is one fact to chew on:

50+ Wisconsinites have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. 110 from NY. 209 from Texas.
244 from California. Total State Population in millions: WI: 5.5; NY: 19.3 ; TX: 22.5 ; CA: 35.9 M. I'll let you do the math on per capita deaths.; ५/४/०६, १२:०३ PM
Jennifer म्हणाले...: Quietnorth: No problem.; ५/४/०६, १२:१४ PM
goesh म्हणाले...: -ignore Ed Gein all you want, Madisonman, I was gentleman enough not to mention him. I recall vividly the children's chant and the little ditty they would do in remebrance of him:

Old Eddie Eddie Gein
he took a woman's spleen
to dance and preen
and gave a piece to the college dean

God! I can still see the little heathens hopping about chanting those words in their sing-song voices and being so thankful I wasn't from Wisconsin.; ५/४/०६, १२:२८ PM
Troy म्हणाले...: MadisonMan -- sobering stats.

Still -- cities call for pull out? BFD. All foreign policy is not local.; ५/४/०६, १२:३४ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Goesh, I'm not exactly sure what Ed Gein has to do with the subject at hand. Wisconsin has a per capita death rate for soldiers in Iraq higher than just about any other state. Why shouldn't, then, a movement to bring them home originate here? The fact that so many from here have died also makes your argument that the good folk of Wisconsin nestle snug in bed while others protect them ring a little hollow as well, doesn't it?

I won't even start on the tangent on the amount of tax monies that leaves this state vs. monies that return. (Yet).

It's time you came out of the closet as Wisconsinphobic.; ५/४/०६, १२:४४ PM
goesh म्हणाले...: Facetiousness aside,war dead stats are always sobering and no doubt Wisconsin has contributed its full share, but some numbers are righteous while others are not. The large KIA stats of the 'good war', WW2, are less relevant than the 2400+ deaths in Iraq. Taken from the VFW magazine, 8/05 issue, in the 88 day battle of Okinawa, 12,183 Americans were killed and 36,681 were wounded. Said deaths were necessary and approved via popular opinion. The 45 month Pacific war, from the attack at Pearl Harbor to the surrender of Japan, cost the US 108,656 lives. That is an average of 2415 a month, or about equal to the total of 3+ years in Iraq.
To point, in light of the frivilous and often changing public attitude towards our people killed in action, I would not be surprised to see these polls skewed in some manner.; ५/४/०६, १:१७ PM
Diploma Priv म्हणाले...: Thank God Bush is in charge, and not the voters.....wait....; ५/४/०६, २:०२ PM
I'm Full of Soup म्हणाले...: The story is annoying- it leaves out vital information such as what percentage of eligible voters even voted.

But that is per MSM's high journalistic standards.; ५/४/०६, २:०७ PM
Sigivald म्हणाले...: Bassett said: Believing that voting is the central act of our democratic republic is "leftism at its highest?"

But what he said first, was "If you accept the proposition that the most patriotic thing that an American can do is vote,"

Please note that "most patriotic thing" and "central act" are not the same things, as sloanasaurus already explained in the part Bassett ignores:

Would it be patriotic to go and vote for the end of the republic?

Patriotism means putting country ahead of self. Merely voting is not patriotism.

See the difference? Voting is central to our democracy. But the act of voting is not inherently patriotic. Voting randomly out of boredom, or perversely (to deliberately harm the republic), out of whatever motive, would not be a patriotic act.

Unless we're going to redefine patriotism somehow, that is. Are we? What does the term mean when you use it, Bassett?

I mean, most of the rest of us seem to use it to mean love of country (though I doubt any would suggest it should be blind love) and its ideals. (But note, again, that the US's democratic ideal is not merely "voting is good for its own sake".); ५/४/०६, २:०८ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: ... but some numbers are righteous while others are not...

I honestly have no clue what point Goesh is trying to make. Which polls are skewed? Why aren't KIA figures from WWII relevant?

Is it just me?; ५/४/०६, २:२६ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: The story is annoying- it leaves out vital information such as what percentage of eligible voters even voted.

35000 voted for/against the referendum in Madison. In the 04 Presidential election, 115000 voted. The 115K was over 80% of the voters, I seem to recall

vw: nnnnj! Enjoy!; ५/४/०६, २:३८ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: I didn't vote.; ५/४/०६, २:४४ PM
Danny म्हणाले...: We need to stay the course and win the peace. To cut and run is exactly what the terrorists want. There will always be quitters in the tough fight for freedom, but the United States will always finish what we've started.; ५/४/०६, ३:१३ PM
reader_iam म्हणाले...: OK, Ann, I'll bite--but only in the sense of catching and throwing a ball back because I just happened to be standing there when it was tossed--not 'cause I would have thought to ask you.

Why didn't you vote?

Mayoral races, contests for school and county boards and funding referendums for schools also were on Tuesday's ballot in Wisconsin communities.

And do you mean just with regard to the referenda, or the other stuff as well?

(Hey, I never volunteer to play catch anymore, but if I accidentally catch the ball, I do throw it back with a certain curve, if I can.); ५/४/०६, ३:५२ PM
Gundovald म्हणाले...: Didn't their forefathers vote to withdraw troops from Virginia in 1862?; ५/४/०६, ४:०६ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: I_am: Why didn't I vote? I didn't have an opinion on the school board election, and I didn't think much of having a referendum on the war. Count me as an abstention.; ५/४/०६, ४:३३ PM
Sloanasaurus म्हणाले...: Being a patriot means putting your country first. It doesn't necessarily mean acting in a moral way.

If your country votes to go to war and you oppose, and then not only do you not go to war with your country but you act to undermine your country, you are not a Patriot.

There are times when being "unpatriotic" may in fact be the better moral choice." For example, you could argue that German soldiers refusing to fight for the Third Reich were morally right, but you cannot say they were patriotic.

There were thousands of patriots who joined up with the Union and confederate Army to fight for their country even though they may have not agreed with the purpose.; ५/४/०६, ४:३८ PM
Thorley Winston म्हणाले...: Mayoral races, contests for school and county boards and funding referendums for schools also were on Tuesday's ballot in Wisconsin communities.

Does it strike anyone else as odd to have elections for these issues in April when there is a State-wide election being held in November when you are far more likely to have a larger turnout?; ५/४/०६, ४:३९ PM
Ann Althouse म्हणाले...: Thorley: "Does it strike anyone else as odd to have elections for these issues in April when there is a State-wide election being held in November when you are far more likely to have a larger turnout?"

Yes. It seems intended to exclude everyone who's not highly politicized. There are too many elections in these parts.; ५/४/०६, ४:५२ PM
Gaius Arbo म्हणाले...: The headline is misleading, there are no stats at all. But as I have said before, bah.

The news is badly skewed, this vote reflects people who a) did not support the war to begin with and b) people who have been misled by a badly skewed media.

http://bluecrabboulevard.com/2006/04/05/absolute-astonishment/; ५/४/०६, ५:४४ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Here's just one recent example, referring to a Brookings Institute report of a decline in casualties.

Just to clarify -- those are wonderful reports showing a consistent decline in deaths. Injuries have recently increased again after a decline.; ५/४/०६, ७:४७ PM
reader_iam म्हणाले...: There are too many elections in these parts.

Interesting that you say this. That's been my impression about living where I live now, too (we had some local elections just this past fall again). I don't remember running to the polls as often as when I lived East (we had some local elections just this past fall). My sense is that things were more consolidated. Perhaps that's just my faulty recollection, or maybe there's something Midwestern about this?

I'm with you about war referenda. I'm glad no one has managed to stage that yet here.

I think abstention has its place two; in fact, I'd sort of like to see that as option on ballots generally. But I won't digress here.; ५/४/०६, ८:३९ PM
अनामित म्हणाले...: I can't find the number of voters anywhere, just the percentage by which it won/lost, but someone on TV said the vote was .7% of the population (of registered voters?). Of course the Peace and Justice folks went out and voted! Proves very little, IMO.; ५/४/०६, ८:४४ PM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: but someone on TV said the vote was .7% of the population (of registered voters?).

Wisconsin's population is 5.5 million. .7% of that is 38500. That's a woeful underestimate of the voters. Just Madison gets you to 35000.

So, surprise! Someone on TV can't do math.; ५/४/०६, ८:५१ PM
I'm Full of Soup म्हणाले...: Thorley said: "Does it strike anyone else as odd to have elections for these issues in April when there is a State-wide election being held in November when you are far more likely to have a larger turnout?"

This is the latest tactic used by whatever pols are in power. Hold a big dollar pork barrel referendum in an off-year primary because theses pols know only the real party faithful will bother to vote.
Here in PA, we just did that and approved a 3/4 Billion dollar program with less than 10% turnout. It's clever actually but is not in spirit of a vital democracy.; ६/४/०६, ७:२८ AM
अनामित म्हणाले...: Madison,
Perhaps she meant .7% of registered voters, which would be entirely different.; ६/४/०६, ११:३७ AM
MadisonMan म्हणाले...: Madison,
Perhaps she meant .7% of registered voters, which would be entirely different.

You're giving her too much credit. .7% of Madison's registered voters would be around 1000 people. 35000 voted on Tuesday. I can't imagine Madison's voter totals were that different from the state as a whole.; ६/४/०६, ४:१४ PM