tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post8477984846386436173..comments2024-03-28T04:42:46.147-05:00Comments on Althouse: "It’s abusive, a walking rejection of all our freedoms.”Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1320773500286574582007-06-23T02:14:00.000-05:002007-06-23T02:14:00.000-05:00Internet Ronin,Until then, I refuse to live in ter...Internet Ronin,<BR/><BR/><I>Until then, I refuse to live in terror with those who, like Debbie Schlussel, cry, "The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are coming," every five minutes. They aren't.</I><BR/><BR/>That's the big secret--invade slowly. We in the West all have Sesame Street-sized attention spans. Too bad Al Queda blew it with 9/11, otherwise far fewer of us would even suspect an invasion was underway.Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22374733959994603162007-06-22T21:59:00.000-05:002007-06-22T21:59:00.000-05:00In theory I support musliim women being allowed to...In theory I support musliim women being allowed to wear burkas/niqab/hijab whatever, whenever.<BR/><BR/>In practice however, as a female, I look at the very "liberal" countries of western Europe, and read that, as Pogo put it: <I>the women not wearing sacks start to get harrassed in Muslim neighborhoods</I> and it scares the shit out of me. Alarmist? Schlussle-esque? Maybe... but I would have no problem--in this case--saying don't even try that sh*t in this country: Assimilation Required.knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13231876226573540476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7653158012907613872007-06-22T17:42:00.000-05:002007-06-22T17:42:00.000-05:00Say I'm a teller at a bank and one of these black-...Say I'm a teller at a bank and one of these black-potato-sack-with-slits-for-eyes-wearing ghouls comes up to the counter and, because it's against her religion to speak to strangers, passes a note reading <BR/><BR/>"I'd like to withdraw $10,000"<BR/><BR/>Would it be wrong for me to wonder if we were being robbed? Would I be fired if I slipped on a black ski mask, and returned a note asking,<BR/><BR/>"Sure, where's your trick-or-treat bag?"<BR/><BR/>Never trust a person who is hiding -- the whole thing about observing people without allowing yourself to be observed is creepy.Chip Ahoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597726289890879627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56801208226214322942007-06-22T15:17:00.000-05:002007-06-22T15:17:00.000-05:00From early history, Western and Asian societies ha...From early history, Western and Asian societies have always had powerful taboos against anyone in masks. It is rightly associated with criminal or poltically violent behavior. A threat to the citizenry and the State. And those taboos actually get stronger in any society that has free movement between tribes, towns, diverse cities.<BR/><BR/>A group of masked people is, and was, a near automatic response to call out police and soldiers to deal with the threat. <BR/><BR/>Niqabs, burquas adapted in an "in your face manner" are meant to at least in part say: <I> "Muslims are a conquering people that do not respect others norms and culture. As Allah made us supreme, it is for you to adapt to us, not our task. And wherever we go we try to use your tolerance and liberties against to and to further our "aggression" - but don't ever think that tolerance will ever be reciprocal when you come and foul our neighborhoods, or native lands other than as submissive workers or dhimmis."</I><BR/><BR/>Radical Islamists have already found women in Niqabs and burquas well suited to smuggling weapons (caught repeatedly in Iraq, West Bank doing so), and recently, in 2 Israeli suicide bombings and the fully veiled woman who had undetected bombs strapped to her at the Jordan wedding Party.<BR/><BR/>Just as we can't tolerate gangs of thugs freely running about Asia and the West in public, in black ski masks to preserve their anonymity in crimes and violence - we cannot tolerate women similarly disguised when they pose a legitimate state security threat.<BR/><BR/>Not even getting into "saving the women from their choice of Muslim oppression" arguments.<BR/><BR/>The security argument, and the long-standing Western and Asian taboo on members of society to publicly mask and disguise themselves to protect us from anti-social activities done by people wishing to avoid identification as parties to that - more than suffices.<BR/><BR/>The cancerous Lefty arguments of "freedom to mask", "honor all cultures equally!!" nonwithstanding.<BR/><BR/>If Islamoids, citizens or not, cannot stand Western and Asian rules that go back thousands of years, - they can elect to leave to Camel Land as an option of other lands not bowing to Muslim ways. More culturally self-assured lands like Rising China, Japan, Australia, Poland are none too subtle on the "do as we do, or get out" argument.Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34802017699060369202007-06-22T15:07:00.000-05:002007-06-22T15:07:00.000-05:00Very Steynian. And I agree.Very Steynian. And I agree.KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-43379650946747396602007-06-22T14:53:00.000-05:002007-06-22T14:53:00.000-05:00Not live in terror, just with your eyes open. It i...<I>Not live in terror, just with your eyes open. It is taking place across the EU. It can happen here. Mistaking the niqab for anyhting less than an anti-West political move is a big mistake. Once here, it would be difficult to uproot, using democracy's own principles for freedom to permit and litigate unfreedom.</I><BR/><BR/>Oh please, if the EU is losing its “principles for freedom,” it’s because they never had any to begin with. If they want to create a culture that values freedom, they can start by liberalizing their anemic economies and begin weaning people off their cradle-to-grave welfare states before their baby-boom generation begins retiring and collapsing the Fabianist house of cards.Thorley Winstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17262423151559851671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-73323408847944767382007-06-22T13:21:00.000-05:002007-06-22T13:21:00.000-05:00Re...once you have a critical mass of evidence tha...Re<I>...once you have a critical mass of evidence that such things are happening here in the United States</I><BR/><BR/>Not live in terror, just with your eyes open. It <I>is</I> taking place across the EU. It <I>can</I> happen here. Mistaking the niqab for anyhting less than an anti-West political move is a big mistake. Once here, it would be difficult to uproot, using democracy's own principles for freedom to permit and litigate unfreedom.KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-43637554332466967962007-06-22T12:47:00.000-05:002007-06-22T12:47:00.000-05:00Am very interested in whether employers or store p...Am very interested in whether employers or store proprietors can be taken to court for banning certain garb, on religious grounds. Expect to see more of this tussle as the niqab catches on in unassimilating communities. <BR/><BR/>I've read too many reports, however, to believe that Muslim women, or even most, happily wear the niqab, especially in the West. It's resurgence since the '79 Iranian Revolution and the Saudis' funding of Salafist madrasses and mosques round the world over the past couple of decades makes its popularity a fairly recent (cultural/ political) phenonemon. Some women willingly wear it for tribal/ Islamist political identity, some for a renewed imterest in fundy (misogynist) Islam and still others, maybe a majority, because they HAVE to, or else. It's for these poor women I dedicate this song by the Moody Beards: <BR/><BR/>Bolts of black fabric<BR/>never reaching the end<BR/>Fatwas we’ve written, oh<BR/>never meaning to rescind<BR/><BR/>Beauty I’d always covered<BR/>With the Book and whip<BR/>That’s what your truth is<BR/>don’t give me any lip <BR/><BR/>‘Cause I control you<BR/>Yes, I control you<BR/>Oh, how I control you--oo.<BR/><BR/>I have to run to a lake party where the women will be wearing skimpy things, so the last word's yours, IR. But don't think for a second that I have something against Muslims per se, only against the *fundy* teachings that lay the responsibility for dark deeds at the feet of women. And upon Jews. And its preaching against the West, against individualism and free thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61588649195636766402007-06-22T12:23:00.000-05:002007-06-22T12:23:00.000-05:00Another point about the women in the article is th...<I>Another point about the women in the article is that they really do have a choice to not wear the demeaning garb, unlike women in Afghanistan and Iran who are stoned to death for non-compliance. </I><BR/><BR/>You can say that again!<BR/><BR/><I>It's easy to make a political stand when you are in no danger. There is nothing brave or noble about that.</I><BR/><BR/>Right again. In my neck of the woods, however, those wearing the sacks are not upper middle-class second-generation or later <I>fashionistas</I> making absurd political statements. That type usually wilts when confronted with the reality of everyday life in the "homeland" they've never had to endure.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68502722688368576682007-06-22T12:17:00.000-05:002007-06-22T12:17:00.000-05:00Pogo, once you have a critical mass of evidence th...Pogo, once you have a critical mass of evidence that such things are happening here in the United States, we might have something to talk about. Until then, I refuse to live in terror with those who, like Debbie Schlussel, cry, "The Muslims are coming! The Muslims are coming," every five minutes. They aren't. <BR/><BR/>I believe that we already have laws against the other things you mentioned, and prosecute when they are discovered.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-80165754082047766112007-06-22T12:13:00.000-05:002007-06-22T12:13:00.000-05:00Apologies, Jane, I guess I did miss your point.Lin...Apologies, Jane, I guess I did miss your point.<BR/><BR/><I>Lines have been drawn wrt to attire already, we don't live in a society where anything goes.</I><BR/><BR/>Although we are damn close to "anything goes," I agree.<BR/><BR/>As to the rest, I'm not <I>justifying</I> anything. If a woman wants to walk around wearing a sack of potatoes in my local supermarket (and some do), I don't care. If someone wants to stare at them, I don't care. If someone other than the proprietor wants to ban them from walking around in their potato sack because it makes <I>those others</I> uncomfortable, then I'm interested. If the idiot walking around in the sack demands that everyone avert their eyes, then I'm interested. (If she doesn't want to be stared at, don't wear the sack.)<BR/><BR/>I'm all for the government saying "No ma'am, you cannot have a driver's license without a picture of your face." That's common sense, and driving is not a constitutional right. Any employer should have a right to set the dress code. Those who don't like it can find other employment. All proprietors have the right to refuse service to anyone they wish. They can say, "We shall serve no one wearing a ski mask," or "We shall serve no one wearing a veil." Public schools have the same rights to enforce dress codes. Those who do not like the dress codes have two choices: send their children to private school or help elect a majority to their school board that will change the dress code.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90731669685644141712007-06-22T12:06:00.000-05:002007-06-22T12:06:00.000-05:00Right, DBQ, and yet, increasingly, less educated M...Right, DBQ, and yet, increasingly, less educated Muslim women in the West are being disenfranchised by family and community edict. They do not have the choice we easily assume they do, we who have daughters who speak their very independent minds...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-75167702315897630312007-06-22T11:59:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:59:00.000-05:00tjl: I believe that employers such as schools have...tjl: I believe that employers such as schools have a right to enforce a dress code. Those who do not wish to follow it do not have to work there. What I am talking about is what people wear walking down the street. <BR/><BR/>(I imagine that one could make a good argument that wearing such a religiously-oriented costume in one's capacity as a public school employee violates the law.)Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65265691873746378652007-06-22T11:58:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:58:00.000-05:00"Veiling prevented raiders from telling old women ..."Veiling prevented raiders from telling old women from the young ones."<BR/><BR/>Sort of a surprise grab bag event?<BR/><BR/>We can't tell other cultures how to dress in their native countries, but we can certainly demand that people adhere to the rules, regulations and cultural norms in our own country. One of which is that you don't go disguised in public in a way that people are unable to know who they are dealing with and unable to have normal social interaction.<BR/><BR/>Paint yourself blue and wear a couch throw on your own time.<BR/><BR/>From a feminist (sort of) stance, I am dismayed by women who want to take on the garb of subjugation and second class citizenhood. Would they bind their feet to cripple their ability to walk or wear corsets that deform the rib cage and damage bodily functions? I don't think so. For some reason, that I can't fathom, these women seem to find the burkha romantic. Maybe they read too many Arabian Nights fairy tales when they were young.<BR/><BR/>Another point about the women in the article is that they really do have a choice to not wear the demeaning garb, unlike women in Afghanistan and Iran who are stoned to death for non-compliance. <BR/><BR/>It's easy to make a political stand when you are in no danger. There is nothing brave or noble about that.Dust Bunny Queenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341429444562280127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52968286573072098092007-06-22T11:43:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:43:00.000-05:00"am not threatened by some woman who prefers to wa..."am not threatened by some woman who prefers to walk around in a XXXL potato sack."<BR/><BR/>What if the woman in the potato sack is an elementary-grade schoolteacher? There was a case in Britain inolving a sack-wearing teacher who claimed she'd been the victim of discriminatory firing, despite the fact that her pupils couldn't see or understand her. Fortunately, reason prevailed, and she wasn't reinstated. It's offensive enough that she was a walking message board for the concept of female subjugation, but she couldn't even do the job she insisted on retaining.tjlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06162785796605831050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41006325529241424632007-06-22T11:30:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:30:00.000-05:00You missed the point, Internet Ronin. Lines have ...You missed the point, Internet Ronin. Lines have been drawn wrt to attire already, we don't live in a society where anything goes. If what you're proposing is just that, then fine, but don't justify people covering themselves up from head to toe in ways which make social interaction difficult and security identification next to impossible as a "woman's right to wear whatever she wishes" in the US. It's never been so here, and in the fundy Muslim community a woman's freedom to wear what she wants isn't at all the case. You've got your eyes covered by blinders, maybe (which by rights you may wear, I suppose--)<BR/><BR/>And I rather doubt society would be sanguine if a popular and growing skinhead group started wearing masks and disguising garb on the city streets.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33830531512310769802007-06-22T11:27:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:27:00.000-05:00Re: " not threatened by some woman who prefers to ...Re: <I>" not threatened by some woman who prefers to walk around in a XXXL potato sack"</I><BR/><BR/><I>You're</I> not.<BR/>But <I>the woman in the sack</I> is. And the women <I>not</I> wearing sacks start to get harrassed in Muslim neighborhoods (as seen in France and England), so soon they are scared as well.<BR/><BR/><BR/>If this were merely a matter of fashion, I wouldn't care. It's a political act, a mark that one accedes to a barbaric culture that subjugates women <I>and means to subjugate all women</I>. It expressly says they reject the West and <I>want to destroy it</I>. They themselves have used these words, not just in Iran but in England. <BR/><BR/>Why not take them at their word?<BR/><BR/>Heck, I'm not threatened by some woman that got a clitoridectomy or has run away from an honor killing. But I oppose them just the same.KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89564009673162525122007-06-22T11:20:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:20:00.000-05:00Well, Jane, since you like to draw lines and all, ...Well, Jane, since you like to draw lines and all, start drawing them for the rest of us, and let's see how many of them the rest of us like. Hip Huggers, bare midriffs & short shorts on fat people, Jane. Yes or No? What about those baggy pants the boys wear that barely really their ass? Ban them, too? How about all those people who insist on showing their butt cracks in public?<BR/><BR/>Me? I'm satisifed with the way things are and am not threatened by some woman who prefers to walk around in a XXXL potato sack.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91124173800427400772007-06-22T11:17:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:17:00.000-05:00Should we be against [obscenity laws], as well?Yes...<I>Should we be against [obscenity laws], as well?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes we should. I've never really understood why the naked body is viewed with such alarm by some busy-bodies.<BR/><BR/>And what internet ronin said. Instead of banning the niqab, we should ridicule it. Ridicule the notion that men have no self-control, and because of that women have to be hidden away. Ridicule the parents who want to control so much their nearly-grown children's lives.MadisonManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01212179466758420208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28209736333468033102007-06-22T11:16:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:16:00.000-05:00Some years back a Saudi man spent time explaining ...Some years back a Saudi man spent time explaining to me why Islam was enlightened (at least in Saudi Arabia).<BR/><BR/>Totally straight faced, he said to me, "Well, the Prophet Muhammad put an end to female infanticide..."<BR/><BR/>And I thought, "Yeah, well, anything else positive happen in the past 1,400 years?"George M. Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07818413936028778734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91293038736646358472007-06-22T11:11:00.000-05:002007-06-22T11:11:00.000-05:00Yes, theoretically we men and women are free to we...Yes, theoretically we men and women are free to wear black ski masks and kevlar on the streets and in public facilities, or to culturally require/ convince gays in our religious community to wear pink stars on their shirts, or to wear wet tees and sheer skirts, since they nominally cover...<BR/><BR/>Too bad Wiccans and the rest of us can't go naked everywhere on account of obscenity laws. Should we be against those, as well?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32257640286799576872007-06-22T10:52:00.000-05:002007-06-22T10:52:00.000-05:00I, for one, am glad that I live in a country where...I, for one, am glad that I live in a country where a woman can wear whatever she wants and anyone who wants to can express their opinion about what she is wearing.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24955628822502813882007-06-22T10:39:00.000-05:002007-06-22T10:39:00.000-05:00I agree in principle with AA, that banning the exp...I agree in principle with AA, that banning the expression is morally wrong, even if the expression is wholly incorrect and offensive*. <BR/><BR/>However, if I were a education administrator, politician, business owner, etc I would reserve the right to prevent a white Christian woman from wearing a shirt proclaiming "Men cannot be trusted to not rape me" from teaching in my school, working in my shop, being admitted to my office.<BR/><BR/>What sort of peripheral vision does this garb allow? Is it safe for the wearer to drive.<BR/><BR/>* Many countries have outright bans on Nazi imagery and propaganda, so that ship has already sailed, actually.uwes98https://www.blogger.com/profile/09851182387500129992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50787875468364936742007-06-22T10:28:00.000-05:002007-06-22T10:28:00.000-05:00I am one who believes that sexual frustration is a...I am one who believes that sexual frustration is a major component of the hostility and anger seen in Islamic societies.<BR/><BR/><I>The impotency of the men is displayed in their deadly requirements of female attire to soothe their lack of masculinity and wounded egos.</I><BR/><BR/>ExactlyLaura Reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15855241652633348350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57583867351912882562007-06-22T09:52:00.000-05:002007-06-22T09:52:00.000-05:00Howard;Your logic and conclusion fails the reality...Howard;<BR/><BR/>Your logic and conclusion fails the reality test. The moral police appear out of nowhere and beat the unfortunate female who has the affrontery to display ANY skin at all.<BR/><BR/>The niqab is symptomatic of a powerless culture that looks back to the not-so-glorious old days. The impotency of the men is displayed in their deadly requirements of female attire to soothe their lack of masculinity and wounded egos.<BR/><BR/>The niqab is one of many symptoms of a failed culture.vet66https://www.blogger.com/profile/07138153738393721582noreply@blogger.com