tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post8367162234470717490..comments2024-03-28T06:36:00.295-05:00Comments on Althouse: Even California didn't want to legalize non-medical marijuana.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger118125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84025190172185054252010-11-04T09:17:49.535-05:002010-11-04T09:17:49.535-05:00bago20 wrote:
Yes, just like I'd be against it...bago20 wrote:<br />Yes, just like I'd be against it for SUSPICION of soodomy between adults, or having contraband cigarettes or having some Vicodin that you got from a friend or any number of nonviolent, nonthreatening offenses that just happen to be illegal in some places. <br /><br> But you would acknowledge that all the objections you have for raids on peoples homes (ie the terror of the family, the shooting of the dog etc) would still be in place if the cops still raided your house for meth/heroin/burglary/murder. <br />Are you ok with that disruption of a household and potential loss of freedom for those crimes? <br />For the crimes you say cops should be able to bust into your house and arrest you for, are you for state intrusion over personal freedom? Because either you're ok with it or you're not, but then the issue is you don't think cops should conduct raids, or don't think there should be enforecable crimes (ie the household is predominant over everything, you could have a meth lab beat your kids slay your dog build a nuclear weapon have a prostitution ring all operating out of your house and so long as it's done in your house the state can't interfere)jr565https://www.blogger.com/profile/07630491937904835553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65484801811980703802010-11-04T09:11:27.330-05:002010-11-04T09:11:27.330-05:00Revenant wrote:
Marijuana is treated differently b...Revenant wrote:<br />Marijuana is treated differently because letting people grow and consume their own marijuana is virtually indistinguishable from complete legalization. Most users would grow their own if they could do so without fear of arrest and prosecution.<br /><br>Except what if they grow some and then sell it, or say sell it across state lines where it might be illegal. Then it's not specifically for home use anymore. Can or should cops bust sellers then? (ie use the force of law to force certain behaviors).<br />And what if Prop 19 passed and it stated you could only have a 5x5 plot of land for pot, and somebody decided to have a 10x10 plot of land. Should the cops get involved then? If not, what's the point of saying you should have a 5x5 plot of land?jr565https://www.blogger.com/profile/07630491937904835553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34544276143848328872010-11-04T09:08:05.673-05:002010-11-04T09:08:05.673-05:00Revenant wrote:
A good rule of thumb is to never s...Revenant wrote:<br />A good rule of thumb is to never say "X should be illegal" unless you're willing to say "I'm ok with killing people for X". It will always come to that, even if only in the fringe cases. Use of force is serious business.<br /><br><br />What if cops try to arrest a burglar and he pulls a gun and they kill him? Under your logic we should make burglary legal because cops might have to kill someone who commits burglary. <br />Isn't that true for all crimes? Cops might have to kill you in the process of arresting you for whatever crime be it murder or something more mundane. Should we outlaw crime fighting?jr565https://www.blogger.com/profile/07630491937904835553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87181506149591295862010-11-04T01:28:49.453-05:002010-11-04T01:28:49.453-05:00I don't see how assaulting and possibly killin...<i>I don't see how assaulting and possibly killing someone for suspicion of having pot is a better outcome than letting them have it. What kind of trade off is that?</i><br /><br />A good rule of thumb is to never say "X should be illegal" unless you're willing to say "I'm ok with killing people for X". It will always come to that, even if only in the fringe cases. Use of force is serious business.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-51721073466647077352010-11-04T01:24:50.113-05:002010-11-04T01:24:50.113-05:00Rev: my only point was that even in the face of to...<i>Rev: my only point was that even in the face of total prohibition, citizens could "make drugs" for home use. Why treat marijuana differently? 200 gallons of wine has to equate to a lot of homegrown pot.</i><br /><br />Marijuana is treated differently because letting people grow and consume their own marijuana is virtually indistinguishable from complete legalization. Most users would grow their own if they could do so without fear of arrest and prosecution.<br /><br />One plant produces around 80 grams, give or take. That's 160 joints, each of which will get you high (if that's what you want) for a few hours. Used sparingly as medicine -- many medical users try to avoid the high, which is one of the many reasons Marinol sucks -- a joint can last a day or more.<br /><br />Ever grown anything in a garden? Tomatoes, carrots, whatever? If that same level of effort and cost could produce all the beer or wine you could dream of drinking, would you ever actually BUY beer or wine again? Not unless you really hated gardening. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29968800292114905952010-11-04T01:07:52.651-05:002010-11-04T01:07:52.651-05:00Neighboring districts could have differing laws. T...<i>Neighboring districts could have differing laws. The legal confusion would cause chaos.</i><br /><br />Oh, please. <br /><br />I grew up in the south, a place where it is common to have completely different laws for alcohol sale and consumption from county to county and city to city. Hell, up until yesterday Dallas apparently had radically different laws for alcohol in different parts of the same CITY.<br /><br />Was this a gigantic pain in the ass to people who just wanted to buy beer and drink it in peace? Hell yes. Did it cause chaos and confusion? It did not. Courts have been dealing with laws that differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction for as long as there have BEEN laws.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23679743575140460482010-11-04T01:03:40.116-05:002010-11-04T01:03:40.116-05:00And again the issue was that those who argue that ...<i>And again the issue was that those who argue that they need medication, and that's why they are arguing for marijuana is dubious at best.</i><br /><br />I don't need to argue that marijuana is useful as medicine. The scientific consensus in this state is that it does, the law here says that it does, and -- despite government threats -- it isn't hard to find doctors who agree it does either. So people who passionately insist it has no legitimate use of medicine merit the same amused smile with which I responded to Tom Cruise's little "antidepressants don't work" rant.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22536581186859225102010-11-04T00:17:45.944-05:002010-11-04T00:17:45.944-05:00True fact (for what it's worth):
Vote total ...True fact (for what it's worth): <br /><br />Vote total for Meg Whitman: 3,102,646. <br /><br />Vote total for legal marijuana: 3,424,145. <br /><br />http://vote.sos.ca.gov/returns/ballot-measures/chuck b.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00882763861745236443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29494418969467846332010-11-04T00:10:06.678-05:002010-11-04T00:10:06.678-05:00Rev: my only point was that even in the face of to...Rev: my only point was that even in the face of total prohibition, citizens could "make drugs" for home use. Why treat marijuana differently? 200 gallons of wine has to equate to a lot of homegrown pot.former law studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196697206046544350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48350306264012954672010-11-04T00:06:09.641-05:002010-11-04T00:06:09.641-05:00"are you against cops using that force specif...<i>"are you against cops using that force specifically for pot,"</i><br /><br />Yes, just like I'd be against it for SUSPICION of soodomy between adults, or having contraband cigarettes or having some Vicodin that you got from a friend or any number of nonviolent, nonthreatening offenses that just happen to be illegal in some places. <br /><br />I don't see how assaulting and possibly killing someone for suspicion of having pot is a better outcome than letting them have it. What kind of trade off is that? What's the ends versus the means - cost/benefit. It's like The Man is high on something, and tweekin' bad.bagoh20https://www.blogger.com/profile/10915174575358413637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24148172465495315562010-11-03T22:42:17.681-05:002010-11-03T22:42:17.681-05:00bagoh20 wrote:
None of this addresses why we allow...bagoh20 wrote:<br />None of this addresses why we allow swat teams to act like Gestapo with American citizens over possession of a plant they can grow on their widow sill. These raids are happening every day, resulting in deaths of innocents and obliteration of anything resembling an American sense of liberty and human rights. None of the negative effects of legal weed require us to accept this atrocity.<br /><br> leaving aside pot for a second, would you have a problem with cops conducting raids to deal with heroin or meth? or if there were a gun running operation or there was a car theft ring? If the cops raid a place it's going to always look the same. They break the door down with guns at the ready. Sometimes they get into shootouts. But, wouldn't that be true whenever cops had to conduct a raid? In other words, are you against cops using that force specifically for pot, or against raids in general. Becausue you're going to have to legalize a lot of things that shouldn't be legal if you want to do away with raids entirely.jr565https://www.blogger.com/profile/07630491937904835553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-51822432444720573992010-11-03T22:12:16.456-05:002010-11-03T22:12:16.456-05:00jr565 said...
In chicago they get paid about 70 b...<i>jr565 said...<br /><br />In chicago they get paid about 70 bucks a pop and have 5 minute examinations where the person in pain is told he needs marijuana.And of course it just so happens that the majority of these people in Colorado are young 20 year olds who are in so much pain they need to be medicated with of course marijuana. THey must all be construction workers and/or on the football team ,to be so injured. And of course people even joke about how they need to get medicated as they smoke their joints. The idea that it is legitimate medicine is a joke.</i><br /><br />Of course medical pot is a joke. Considering that its majority of users are between 18 and 40, mostly male, and the biggest medical diagnosis as a justification for prescribing pot is stress. Yeah, that's a lot of pain alright. I wish the pot heads would just be honest about it. If they just came out and said, "Look we would like to smoke weed for pleasure, we won't bother you out in public, we will suffer the same consequences that alcohol users suffer if we are found to be intoxicated just like them, but we just want to smoke weed, okay? Can we make it legal so we don't have to come up with these bullshit legal hoops?" and I almost bet you that would go over much better with the electorate than these other legal arguments for it.Methadrashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07828014989470539375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3328304421883491462010-11-03T22:06:15.054-05:002010-11-03T22:06:15.054-05:00Revenant said...
even if you're right, that j...<i>Revenant said...<br /><br />even if you're right, that just tells me that doctors think alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana. Which would make a lot of sense, since it is. :)</i><br /><br />Even in the face of long term studies that suggest, if not show outright, that certain quantities of moderate consumption is actually beneficial, which were conducted by medical professionals going as far back as the early 1900's? I think you presume to much.Methadrashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07828014989470539375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9805178305342266492010-11-03T22:00:03.886-05:002010-11-03T22:00:03.886-05:00Prop 19 failed because it was garbage legislation....Prop 19 failed because it was garbage legislation. Every municipality in the state would end up having it's own regulations against that law. Neighboring districts could have differing laws. The legal confusion would cause chaos. Not to mention that the feds would go after it and challenge it and most likely it would be struck down. <br /><br /><i>former law student said...<br /><br /> The argument that Prop 19 would allow school bus drivers to toke up to the moment they turned the key in the ignition was telling. Only after they had one accident while stoned could an employer forbid them to.</i><br /><br />The problem with that is we know what the legal BAC of an individual to be, but no one has asked what unit of measure legally, constitutes being to high from pot? Do you know?Methadrashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07828014989470539375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16599411302679942312010-11-03T20:55:36.665-05:002010-11-03T20:55:36.665-05:00Usually any drug that comes to market has to pass ...Usually any drug that comes to market has to pass rigorous testing by the Food And Drug Administration, yet pot doesn't get tested at all. In california, from what I hear, doctors don't even write prescriptions for pot, rather they write reccomendations for their patients. Considering doctors get their prescription pads from the DEA not too many doctors would risk giving out prescriptions for illegal drugs. <br />And its not just cancer patients, but people who have a headache and need pot. <br />Of course those advocating for the legalization of pot for medicinal purposes are very quiet about getting their drug tested by the FDA to determine it's merits as a wonder drug. So instead, bogus doctors make their living giving out recommendations to people, many of them who could be given other drugs that are totally legal,and many who have no ailments to speak of for pot. <br />Shouldn't pot face the same rigorous testing as anything put out by a drug company before it's marketed as a medical drug? Or should those who LEGITMATELY make drugs say if pot doesn't need FDA testing why should our latest drugs? It would save drug companies billions.jr565https://www.blogger.com/profile/07630491937904835553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44261208690049261242010-11-03T20:48:44.912-05:002010-11-03T20:48:44.912-05:00I don't think your premise about medicinal use...I don't think your premise about medicinal use of alcohol is always correct, or if it is, this is a recent development. In old novels and movies whiskey to steady the nerves after receiving a shock is treated as routine.James Kabalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02335302113772004687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-12398667594586638122010-11-03T20:42:44.684-05:002010-11-03T20:42:44.684-05:00Revenant wrote:
I'm not even sure what point y...Revenant wrote:<br />I'm not even sure what point you think you're making. Actual doctors with actual medical degrees prescribe marijuana as medicine. If you want to argue that they'd never prescribe alcohol, well... even if you're right, that just tells me that doctors think alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana. Which would make a lot of sense, since it is. :)<br /><br><br />Again, it was a comparison made by Ann. And again the issue was that those who argue that they need medication, and that's why they are arguing for marijuana is dubious at best. And it would be akin to a doctor giving you scotch as medicine. Ann made the additional point that those who self medicate on alcohol are in fact alcoholics so it strikes her as disingenous to suggest that people "need" marijuana as opposed to arguing it on personal freedom grounds.<br />There are plenty of other pain medications from marinol to others totally unrelated to pot that can give patients relief that dont' require them to use elements from pot. There are also no real studies that show that pot has any medicinal benefit<br />As to actual doctors prescribing pot as medication, dthere are some "doctors" who are pretty unscrupulous. Michael Jackson's "doctor" or Anna Nicole Smith's "doctor" fed them plenty of medication and kept them up to date on their habits, but I wouldn't exactly call them scrupulous.<br />In fact many "doctors" have dispensing marijuana as their primary practice. In chicago they get paid about 70 bucks a pop and have 5 minute examinations where the person in pain is told he needs marijuana.And of course it just so happens that the majority of these people in Colorado are young 20 year olds who are in so much pain they need to be medicated with of course marijuana. THey must all be construction workers and/or on the football team ,to be so injured. And of course people even joke about how they need to get medicated as they smoke their joints. The idea that it is legitimate medicine is a joke.jr565https://www.blogger.com/profile/07630491937904835553noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86619501444457414712010-11-03T19:50:32.937-05:002010-11-03T19:50:32.937-05:00"They probably voted for Boxer too which was ...<i>"They probably voted for Boxer too which was civically irresponsible. :)"</i><br /><br />Agreed, they didn't seem like they knew who Boxer was or much of anything else. They did know that they and their friends who got high were not a serious threat to anybody, and that arresting them for it was wrong. Even a stoner can get that right.<br /><br />I don't know why this gets me so much, except that I've known hundreds of pot heads and was one myself as a kid. It seems like people who did the same turned out exactly normal in the long run and hurt no one in the process. When I was in high school in the seventies, most kids were either jocks, heads or neither. Generally the jocks were the violent ones, the heads the peaceful ones, and neithers were the strange ones. The pot heads seemed to grow into the most stable adults, usually with a politically libertarian bent, which I prefer. Certainly not a danger or drag on society, in my experience. I just don't see what we are protecting ourselves from at such a high price.bagoh20https://www.blogger.com/profile/10915174575358413637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40733760805369909082010-11-03T19:36:52.246-05:002010-11-03T19:36:52.246-05:00That's different than a doctor giving you a bo...<i>That's different than a doctor giving you a bottle of scotch as medicine.</i><br /><br />Just like having a doctor tell you to eat a well-balanced meal isn't the same as him actually cooking one for you in his office, yes.<br /><br />I'm not even sure what point you think you're making. Actual doctors with actual medical degrees prescribe marijuana as medicine. If you want to argue that they'd never prescribe alcohol, well... even if you're right, that just tells me that doctors think alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana. Which would make a lot of sense, since it is. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90048371696329632252010-11-03T19:22:41.478-05:002010-11-03T19:22:41.478-05:00They were clearly high, in the wrong location, and...<i>They were clearly high, in the wrong location, and obviously had never voted before. Euphoria is the mother of civic responsibility.</i><br /><br />They probably voted for Boxer too which was civically irresponsible. :)chickelithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773887469972534979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-47956739213998089222010-11-03T19:19:49.313-05:002010-11-03T19:19:49.313-05:00all through Prohibition, householders could make 2...<i>all through Prohibition, householders could make 200 gallons of wine every year for their own use.</i><br /><br />Making wine is quite difficult and time-consuming. Getting a weed to grow in your backyard is so easy that people spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year to kill the weeds they grew by accident.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-53233700606104153332010-11-03T19:10:54.675-05:002010-11-03T19:10:54.675-05:00What impresses me is that Proposition 19 got 44% o...What impresses me is that Proposition 19 got 44% of the vote.<br /><br />The legalization movement was opposed by virtually the entire news media and the entire political establishment -- every major politician, both parties, all state newspapers, etc. It is heartening to think that at least 44% of my fellow Californians can think for themselves in the face of that kind of opposition.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49542428189713869582010-11-03T19:05:47.586-05:002010-11-03T19:05:47.586-05:00None of this addresses why we allow swat teams to ...None of this addresses why we allow swat teams to act like Gestapo with American citizens over possession of a plant they can grow on their widow sill. These raids are happening every day, resulting in deaths of innocents and obliteration of anything resembling an American sense of liberty and human rights. None of the negative effects of legal weed require us to accept this atrocity.<br /><br />When we choose something that's not a serious threat and treat it like it is one, we become fascists. These raids embarrass and enrage me more than almost anything else we do as a nation. If we're talking about a meth lab, that's one thing, but just because we call two things drugs does not make them the same thing. It's a word, a choice, and we should know better than to treat our own people and constitution like this. I don't care about the drug, I care about rights.bagoh20https://www.blogger.com/profile/10915174575358413637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78396861689928958482010-11-03T19:02:28.447-05:002010-11-03T19:02:28.447-05:00Why Nancy Pelosi over Susan Hammer (former mayor o...<i>Why Nancy Pelosi over Susan Hammer (former mayor of San Jose, *as an example*), I don't know.</i><br /><br />I'd never heard of Susan Hammer. Very interesting. <br /><br />I tried to watch that snippet of Sawyer's interview of Pelosi on Drudge right now but I couldn't finish it. The woman needs to return to her cocoon. <br />Surely it was money that propelled to that spot for that brief time. It wasn't good works nor prayer.chickelithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773887469972534979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39972391557418225502010-11-03T18:51:32.223-05:002010-11-03T18:51:32.223-05:00John;
That is supremely dopey. Putting opiates int...John;<br /><i>That is supremely dopey. Putting opiates into your body is really harmful. But you better hope your doctor is willing to proscribe them to you the next time you have surgery. Chemotherapy is flat out poison. But again you better hope your doctor proscribes such stuff if you ever have cancer. </i><br /><br />If you read my post you would see i objected to the drug delivery system. I was not discussing the therapeutic benefits of the active ingredient (THC). I would likewise not want to "legalize" the "medical" prescription of used, unsterilized needles, also a dangerous delivery system.<br /><br /><i>And how is pot more evil that alcohol? Have you ever had to deal with an alcoholic? Seen the kind of pain that alcohol abuse causes? It is nasty and horrible. And just as bad or worse than any horror story you can dream up about pot. Should we ban that evil to? If not, why not?</i> <br /><br />You understand that logic takes us also in the opposite direction (i.e. banning cheeseburgers and automobiles)<br /><br />PS I am a doctorPhil 314https://www.blogger.com/profile/04133300763922742206noreply@blogger.com