tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post8179315269164591425..comments2024-03-28T04:08:06.986-05:00Comments on Althouse: "But journalism is not supposed to be grounded in whether something is 'believable' or 'seems like it could be true.'"Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger102125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69240070713927335462020-09-08T13:15:44.644-05:002020-09-08T13:15:44.644-05:00"They remind me of the bowfins that sometimes...<i>"They remind me of the bowfins that sometimes hang around my dock. You can catch the same one six times in a row, if you want, and they will bite just as hard the sixth time as the first."</i><br /><br />Thanks for that analogy, Tim. I have caught the same fish more than once myself. It just makes me shake my head. <br /><br />"What were you <i>thinking</i>?"<br />"Oh. Right."Original Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714345479248980398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-92201171952123788922020-09-08T12:50:28.890-05:002020-09-08T12:50:28.890-05:00Trump never once has professed devotion to the wea...Trump never once has professed devotion to the weapons manufacturers, leakers to the NYT and WaPa, and generals who start these wars.tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-73206729563666911162020-09-08T12:48:49.909-05:002020-09-08T12:48:49.909-05:00So it all fell apart, only got printed due to the...So it all fell apart, only got printed due to the shoddy standards at the Atlantic, and the Fox ‘confirmation’ actually never confirmed anything, because he wasn’t talking about soldiers, he was talking about his well-documented contempt for the military industrial complex.<br /><br />Don’t worry, Left Bank and Althouse Cohen will swallow the next story hook line and sinker too. <br /><br />They remind me of the bowfins that sometimes hang around my dock. You can catch the same one six times in a row, if you want, and they will bite just as hard the sixth time as the first.<br /><br />This was Glen Greenwald’s point.tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16402104284401021182020-09-08T10:38:54.747-05:002020-09-08T10:38:54.747-05:00"(I got to met with Herb Caen in SF when I wa..."(I got to met with Herb Caen in SF when I was a kid. Didn't' know who he was but my parents thought I should be impressed :-) They had high respect for him)"<br /><br />Caen was the S.F. Chronicle columnist who had 10,000 people turn out for his parade through the downtown when he was dying of cancer. He was the master of witty short paragraphs and one liners that killed. He was great on giving people names, better even than Trump. The department store magnate Cyril Magnin was dubbed The Merchant Prince. I asked him what percentage of Caen's stories did he think were true based on his own personal knowledge. "About half," he said. That's a pretty good average for a newspaperman.Banjohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04812369386453202712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15308056007486605242020-09-08T07:10:13.196-05:002020-09-08T07:10:13.196-05:00""More fundamentally, none of you really...""More fundamentally, none of you really take on the article's basic point: that Trump is a hypocrite, who professes devotion to military values,”<br /><br />Democrats banging the war drum, what else is new.tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25863573057144829252020-09-07T23:24:05.190-05:002020-09-07T23:24:05.190-05:00Look if this story was true, Goldberg would name h...Look if this story was true, Goldberg would name his 4 sources. Instead, he refuses to do so, because "they will get mean tweets". I mean, how STUPID and DISHONEST do you have to be, to think this is a credible news story worthy of publication or discussion?<br /><br />Again, why doesn't Goldberg NAME HIS SOURCES? is he protecting trump? Why doesn't the Trump hating Fox News babe name her sources? <br /><br />Give me a good reason, for keeping them secret IF the story is true.rcoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17102201338319611538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78130081596215239092020-09-07T23:19:12.744-05:002020-09-07T23:19:12.744-05:00"Is there any reason to think Fox News and CN... "Is there any reason to think Fox News and CNN did anything less than that?"<br /><br />I shouldn't have to ASSUME, that a news-story "confirmed" by Fox News and treated as credible by the MSM, is accurate. Its up to Fox News and Goldberg to show us their story, which they claim is accurate, is supported by evidence, and credible, real-life people.<br /><br />Right now, we have two Trump hating "Journalists" asserting they talked to some mysterious someone's who may or may exist, who supposedly have 2nd hand gossip about Trump. And NO OTHER EVIDENCE. If this was fact-checked it would be labeled an assertion without evidence, and a Conspiracy theory. rcoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17102201338319611538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27552917040738826882020-09-07T22:44:30.953-05:002020-09-07T22:44:30.953-05:00Big Mike said...
Believe it or not, I can actually...Big Mike said...<br />Believe it or not, I can actually picture Trump saying something disparaging -- however not about the WWI doughboys but about their leadership. Here's the most famous example, but I bet hardly any of you readers are aware of it.<br />----------============<br />thank you Sir.<br />Trump amazingly is the first humane man to occupy the White House in more than a century.Narayananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03007500560335813723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9742869090382956152020-09-07T22:21:04.185-05:002020-09-07T22:21:04.185-05:00Stephen, you are a complete turd. You do not addr...Stephen, you are a complete turd. You do not address the evidence, just pile on another steaming load of your diarrhetic claims , claims that you simply add to those that have been amply refuted and you choose to ignore in silence.<br /><br />You have the brains of an amoeba, the kind of amoeba that give people...diarrhea.effinayrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16195111141879312800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39411392667388644222020-09-07T22:15:14.125-05:002020-09-07T22:15:14.125-05:00Stephen. You appear to be personally convinced of ...Stephen. You appear to be personally convinced of exactly the thing Greenwald decries - that this story <i>could be</i> true - not that it can be <i>proven or shown</i> to be true by examination of evidence, which is a reporter's job.<br /><br />There are two questions here. 1. Did the reporters do their job here? 2. What is the importance of the story?<br /><br />In answer to 1., it's abundantly clear that they didn't - they have <i>no</i> independent corroboration of this story. If they did, they'd lay it out - so clearly they were unable to get corroboration. In answer to 2., let's posit for the moment that Trump said a mean thing about dead war veterans. What has he <i>actually</i> done for the military, including veterans, today? Answer that question - answer it truthfully - and you may find yourself a step closer to understanding why Trump supporters can remain Trump supporters desire his often blunt and occasionally crude speech: his <i>actions</i> are on point.Jamiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00623031374944444521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-83837560819193738842020-09-07T22:09:53.694-05:002020-09-07T22:09:53.694-05:00"None of you takes on the full range of the e...<i>"None of you takes on the full range of the evidence, which consists of multiple sources, present or former government officials, who claim direct knowledge and who have given accounts to multiple reporters,"</i><br /><br />Really? Name the sources.Original Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714345479248980398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91987497281236165842020-09-07T21:48:10.023-05:002020-09-07T21:48:10.023-05:00I know he/they is a troll, but this is for me, not...I know he/they is a troll, but this is for me, not the troll. It was just too easy, and the wife has a hallmarky kind of movie on, I need something to occupy they other 98.763% of my brain. <br /><br />None of you takes on the full range of the evidence, which consists of multiple sources,<i>4 people all say the same thing,none are identified as independent of each other</i> present or former government officials,<i>which is it? Former, or present? Both? Who? What title do/did they hold?</i> who claim direct knowledge <i>no direct knowledge is claimed, that would put them in the room, something never claimed in article</i> and who have given accounts to multiple reporters,<i>Woa..multiple reporters? Multiple reporters have contemporaneous reciting of the same events? That's new, I need a cite</i> including reporters with no evident axe to grind,<i>At least you admit reporters will lie to tell a story to get their ax ground. It's a start</i> as well as a lot of other corroborating public evidence.iowan2https://www.blogger.com/profile/14716635412314020236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27742564771921694702020-09-07T21:41:18.226-05:002020-09-07T21:41:18.226-05:00Stephen,
It is clear you know nothing about argum...Stephen,<br /><br />It is clear you know nothing about argumentation or logic. You wrote:<br /><br /><b>"More fundamentally, none of you really take on the article's basic point: that Trump is a hypocrite, who professes devotion to military values, but in fact believes that courage, selflessness and devotion to duty are for suckers and losers"</b><br /><br />This is a fallacious argument that has a <i>well known name</i>. It is called question begging. You assume as true exactly the thing we are debating here. Who are the people who claim that Trump holds these beliefs? You also employ another fallacious tactic of <i>argumentum ab auctoritate</i> when you appeal to <i>anonymous</i> sources described by you as government officials. We are directly questioning the truthfulness of these officials, Stephen- <i>anonymous officials</i>- you haven't even addressed this because you don't know who these people are either. You earlier claimed it had to be John Kelly, but I pointed out that Kelly <i>didn't confirm</i> the story for Goldberg, and I suspect I know why- because Kelly wasn't sure himself if he had been insulted, and this is me accepting for purposes of debate that Trump even said those words described- words I pointed out are not all that easy to interpret, as even Goldberg's story clearly indicates.<br /><br />In short, there is literally no support for any of the claims in the article about Trump calling dead soldier losers or suckers but the word of anonymous people. For me to even entertain the possibility that they are telling the truth, I would absolutely have to know who they are. People unwilling to forthrightly make an assertion under their own damned names are to be doubted until they do.Yancey Wardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16427042729449397357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-17152303631020669282020-09-07T21:09:18.238-05:002020-09-07T21:09:18.238-05:00Big Mike,
Wow, that guy must have been jealous of...Big Mike,<br /><br />Wow, that guy must have been jealous of Gen. Haig's body count.Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61410356408319148062020-09-07T20:36:10.288-05:002020-09-07T20:36:10.288-05:00Some wit has said that's easier to fool some p...Some wit has said that's easier to fool some people than it is to convince them that they've been fooled.ken in txhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345764031059905578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28711168354641819432020-09-07T19:43:47.401-05:002020-09-07T19:43:47.401-05:00Stephen said...
Professor Althouse, you have becom...Stephen said...<br />Professor Althouse, you have become right wing apologist.<br /><br />The heart of this story is what Trump is alleged to have said to Kelly at his son's grave.<br />That story could only have come from Kelly, and Kelly himself has never denied it. <br />---------=========<br /><br />I found the story from 2017 (below) - about war dead in 2010 (Obama - Biden)<br /><br />my simple question to you - <br />does Kelly (or you) have an answer for Trump and more importantly his son? and other fathers and their sons?<br /><br />.... Kelly's son 1st Lt. Robert Kelly was killed while on patrol in Afghanistan in 2010. "Robert was killed in action protecting our country, its people, and its values from a terrible and relentless enemy," Kelly wrote after his son's death.<br />When Trump and Kelly, who served as secretary of homeland security before becoming the White House chief of staff, visited Arlington on Memorial Day in 2017, the two men stopped at Robert Kelly's grave. Standing there, Trump reportedly turned to Kelly and said: "I don't get it. What was in it for them?"...Narayananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03007500560335813723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86639449189823392232020-09-07T19:34:11.238-05:002020-09-07T19:34:11.238-05:00The irony is that the people writing these news &q...The irony is that the people writing these news "stories" about how the president said something disparaging about US soldiers, would call them nazis, babykillers, and racist murderers if you asked their opinion of our armed forces.Bunkypotatoheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02488905052143725904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52006184104075182632020-09-07T18:30:43.476-05:002020-09-07T18:30:43.476-05:00I guess it shouldn't, but still- it surprises ...I guess it shouldn't, but still- it surprises me that anyone with two brain cells to rub together thinks that confirming the existence of an unsubstantiated claim is in any way meaningful.<br /><br />But wait- what's that, you say? Those making that confirmation are doing so in the hope that people who aren't paying much attention (or aren't too bright) will confuse the fact they confirmed an unsubstantiated claim with confirmation that that claim was, in fact, true?<br /><br />As much as it sucks, there's no denying that's where we are today.I'm Not Surehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00667545402086122894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11516267731432788492020-09-07T18:19:18.592-05:002020-09-07T18:19:18.592-05:00None of you takes on the full range of the evidenc...None of you takes on the full range of the evidence, which consists of multiple sources, present or former government officials, who claim direct knowledge and who have given accounts to multiple reporters, including reporters with no evident axe to grind, as well as a lot of other corroborating public evidence. And no one addresses the problem with Trump's own credibility, including the fact that in his public denials of Goldberg's story he offered a provable falsehood about what he said in the public record about McCain, not to mention his disastrously bad overall record for truthfulness.<br /><br />Bottom line: Trump could have gone to honor the war dead if he believed it was important to do so. American ingenuity would have found a way. Kelly got there; other world leaders got there; Trump could have too. His failure to do so is completely inconsistent with his professed commitment.<br /><br />More fundamentally, none of you really take on the article's basic point: that Trump is a hypocrite, who professes devotion to military values, but in fact believes that courage, selflessness and devotion to duty are for suckers and losers, that the dead and wounded are to be hidden and ignored, and that unless one has made a lot of money one is not really a success.<br /><br />So let's switch the question around. Who of you actually think that Trump in fact sincerely reveres and honors courage, selflessness and devotion to duty? And what is your evidence that he does so? And how do you square it with the broad range of evidence cited in the Goldberg article, or with his complete failure to find common ground with the distinguished and highly decorated military men who served him, including Kelly, Mattis, and McMaster?<br /><br />You might also want to compare him, along this axis, with the Democratic candidate, whose son served overseas, who evidently has a high regard for the values in issue, and who, with his wife, has made a significant personal commitment to the cause of military families.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00347013486956199318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-73712927811091004752020-09-07T17:28:08.602-05:002020-09-07T17:28:08.602-05:00The time to punish journalists for "fake but ...The time to punish journalists for "fake but accurate" was years ago.Matt Sablanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15885240752820005149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89036693682079872812020-09-07T17:22:44.651-05:002020-09-07T17:22:44.651-05:00"But talking to a source, verifying that s/he...<i>"But talking to a source, verifying that s/he is really a senior administration official, and hearing that this person says s/he was accurately quoted in the original report and s/he stands by it — that would be confirmation."</i><br /><br />Confirmation that the anonymous source was accurately quoted, not that what the anonymous source said was true.<br /><br />Do you understand the difference? I hope so.I'm Not Surehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00667545402086122894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19558335450572836472020-09-07T16:49:07.880-05:002020-09-07T16:49:07.880-05:00It’s the military/intelligence community/defense c...It’s the military/intelligence community/defense contractor/New York Times-WaPo cabal that was behind impeachment who are genuinely angry that we have a president who questions their absolute right to send our young men off to war. tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41366860723684854592020-09-07T16:46:52.961-05:002020-09-07T16:46:52.961-05:00I will take the man who has moral qualms about sen...I will take the man who has moral qualms about sending kids off to die in a war over the person who orders them into battle while tapping his foot to Stars and Stripes Forever and a broad smile. <br /><br />“We came! We saw! He died! (chortle guffaw)” - Hillery Rodham Clinton.<br /><br />Now there are open slave markets in that country Hillery. ‘Wives’ sold to the highest bidder.tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18347264496924369362020-09-07T16:26:22.601-05:002020-09-07T16:26:22.601-05:00So John Althouse Cohen is now in bed with the neoc...So John Althouse Cohen is now in bed with the neocons who got us, with Biden’s support and approval, into the Iraq war, where Cheney specifically cited Jeffry Goldberg’s lies.<br /><br />You must be so proud John, to be on these people’s sides banging the war drums.tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-54216188297689229262020-09-07T15:51:00.055-05:002020-09-07T15:51:00.055-05:00I’ve written more than 5,000 stories in my career ...I’ve written more than 5,000 stories in my career and could go into detail on why this story is suspicious. Fifty-fifty that the reporter is lying and if I were the editor I would push back to get sources on the record before greenlighting it. But that is problem one: the reporter is also the editor. <br /><br />Second issue, if the story is true then Trump knows who heard him make the statements. So why do the sources need anonymity? Trump already knows who they are. I am willing to bet money that Goldberg made this up. Once a story is out it is not hard for a second reporter to find sources willing to pile on out due to their own motives. The Fox reporters conformation are worthless. I have been there, done this. <br />NYC JournoListhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09762980158357952786noreply@blogger.com