tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post7012683793253136722..comments2024-03-19T00:44:18.309-05:00Comments on Althouse: "[L]ibertarianism is basically conservatism for people with social anxieties."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33293975540594998992014-08-13T08:45:08.305-05:002014-08-13T08:45:08.305-05:00Ann Althouse said...
My sense that it's true c...Ann Althouse said...<br />My sense that it's true comes from the embodied intuition and empathy that I feel is relatively lacking in libertarians.<br /><br />Do we really want a government that emotes as an official function? What could go wrong?<br /><br /><br /><br />As for the author's perspective I would reply that back in the day the self described "liberals" were generally anti-authoritarian. Today, self described liberals (progressives is a better word) are authoritarian because they now hold the power. So much for principles.Lnelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10761267045056702041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56313016620604711212014-08-12T21:07:42.959-05:002014-08-12T21:07:42.959-05:00Another thread crackjacked.Another thread crackjacked.Phil 314https://www.blogger.com/profile/04133300763922742206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4480763798773597602014-08-12T19:43:51.987-05:002014-08-12T19:43:51.987-05:00Ann's comment struck a chord with me. During ...Ann's comment struck a chord with me. During the rise of the tea party I spent time with the Libertarian party. I came away with a sense of them as being liberal divorced from a liberal's animating purpose. I've pondered it and will admit it something other than a mere opinion or just a feeling. But Ann's notion suggests what I came away with.socally773https://www.blogger.com/profile/06231134492645909323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50960820543391722772014-08-12T18:25:38.386-05:002014-08-12T18:25:38.386-05:00What I can say for Ann doesn't go for Roy Edro...What I can say for Ann doesn't go for Roy Edroso, however, and presumably tVV by extension. From the article, it should be clear to anyone who understands libertarianism that he's much too caught up in the pyramid of his own premises, and isn't intent on inspecting them. The piece is a hackjob, a drive-by smear, a sermon to the Voice's own choir.<br /><br />Time and again I encounter people who say libertarianism is bad, but will not come out and say all the consequences that necessarily follow from their belief that sometimes, it's considered okay to force people to do things they don't want to do. That it's okay to wait for someone to create wealth, and then come along and take it away. That it's okay to expect those same people to keep generating more wealth for you to come along and take the next day. That it's okay to force your morals on someone else, over and above the moral right to one's own existence.<br /><br />It'd be refreshing even to see them admit such weaknesses and inspect them. Even libertarians struggle with externalities and the free rider problem. They have no choice but to at least address those.Paul Brinkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08403755675434905417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-14138895046712131232014-08-12T18:19:56.403-05:002014-08-12T18:19:56.403-05:00Hey crack its a free country. Do what pleases you....Hey crack its a free country. Do what pleases you. You certainly don't need my approval and I have never demanded you seek it. <br /><br />Just quit bitching about the logical results and natural consequences of your actions and attitude and quit blaming others that have nothing to do with your situation.<br /><br />Your racist idiocy and projection is tiresome. Al and Jesse are embarrassed by your amateur hour racial guilt tripping hustle attempts. You should really leave it to those pros.<br />SGT Tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00184808889760136366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58902150826273628002014-08-12T18:08:26.725-05:002014-08-12T18:08:26.725-05:00I've seen too much evidence of Ann's insig...I've seen too much evidence of Ann's insights over the last ten years to believe she's merely not insightful about libertarianism. Although it's possible that she hasn't thought about libertarianism in specifically this way. I'd have to see her respond to it to be more sure.<br /><br />I can't help but think she had a long-term nasty taste in her mouth about the whole philosophy as a result of being run out of a discussion by some overzealous defenders. (There's a real, specific incident I'm thinking of, that Ann wrote about; I no longer remember exactly when it happened.) They did their viewpoint a disservice in my opinion. I've seen causes I might have otherwise supported myself, except for that I simply couldn't stand the other supporters.<br /><br />Or maybe she has a more principled opposition. I dare not rule that out, at least out of respect. Again, I'd need more information to be sure.<br /><br />Keep in mind that libertarians have (or should have) no problem working for what they think is good for others. Or even pooling their resources to do so. And advertising it, and asking others to do likewise. There's nothing in the philosophy that opposes this. It's when it's <i>taking resources by force that they don't own</i>, that makes the difference.Paul Brinkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08403755675434905417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21865624111331040692014-08-12T17:25:24.195-05:002014-08-12T17:25:24.195-05:00"My sense that it's true comes from the e...<i>"My sense that it's true comes from the embodied intuition and empathy that I feel is relatively lacking in libertarians."</i><br /><br />My sense is that libertarians are more insightful than you. Real people are hurt by liberal empathy and the conceit that they know how to help (not to mention the belief that <i>anything</i> is justified in the expression of their "empathy").Original Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714345479248980398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7584444867069640402014-08-12T16:02:27.389-05:002014-08-12T16:02:27.389-05:00^^^^ it only lacks proper grammar
^^^^ it only lacks proper grammar<br />Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18307552957596862754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64648082399809940292014-08-12T16:01:01.697-05:002014-08-12T16:01:01.697-05:00I think libertarianism (the concept, not the party...I think libertarianism (the concept, not the party) is rooted in a resistance to the authoritarian right and authoritarian left. If it is "empathy" that causes someone to become authoritarian, then I'll some less empathy please. <br /><br />But when I hear about a lawful citizen killed by the police or about a business owner throttled by regulations that are promoted by crony capitalism, I feel a deep sense of empathy. When I see police abuse a certain class of people because of the color of their skin -- I feel a deep sense of pain. When I see a legal immigrant face abuse by a federal bureaucracy while illegal aliens can enter the country freely, I get angry. <br /><br />It's not a lack of empathy that we share. It's a belief in the ability of each person to make the best of themselves -- for their own sake, their family's sake, and and for their community. We believe in a life as an expression of our values. And we see the wonderful ways man has escaped poverty by freely exchanging ideas and goods. Ultimately, the libertarian want's to promote the bounty of free minds and free markets while preventing a slip back in to man's natural state, abject poverty. Of course, some still say this political persuasion lacks empathy. Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18307552957596862754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-60648491197087404632014-08-12T16:00:58.729-05:002014-08-12T16:00:58.729-05:00I think libertarianism (the concept, not the party...I think libertarianism (the concept, not the party) is rooted in a resistance to the authoritarian right and authoritarian left. If it is "empathy" that causes someone to become authoritarian, then I'll some less empathy please. <br /><br />But when I hear about a lawful citizen killed by the police or about a business owner throttled by regulations that are promoted by crony capitalism, I feel a deep sense of empathy. When I see police abuse a certain class of people because of the color of their skin -- I feel a deep sense of pain. When I see a legal immigrant face abuse by a federal bureaucracy while illegal aliens can enter the country freely, I get angry. <br /><br />It's not a lack of empathy that we share. It's a belief in the ability of each person to make the best of themselves -- for their own sake, their family's sake, and and for their community. We believe in a life as an expression of our values. And we see the wonderful ways man has escaped poverty by freely exchanging ideas and goods. Ultimately, the libertarian want's to promote the bounty of free minds and free markets while preventing a slip back in to man's natural state, abject poverty. Of course, some still say this political persuasion lacks empathy. Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18307552957596862754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64123592993662545962014-08-12T15:45:11.742-05:002014-08-12T15:45:11.742-05:00Paul brinkley,
"People cannot be milked for ...Paul brinkley,<br /><br />"People cannot be milked for wealth like animals, in either a liberal or conservative moral framework."<br /><br />They can in America - just ask the whites against reparations:<br /><br />That's EXACTLY what they're fighting for,...The Crack Emceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08366101526773588864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87363930154188258172014-08-12T15:42:36.797-05:002014-08-12T15:42:36.797-05:00SGT Ted,
"The Hate Whitey shtick is old.&quo...SGT Ted,<br /><br />"The Hate Whitey shtick is old."<br /><br />Gee, and it just started. ("The Hate Blackey shtick" lasted 400 years.) See, this is why blacks don't put our interests to a vote by whites - the historical record says whites like kangaroo courts - so we'd have to stop doing EVERYTHING if we relied on whether or not the SGT Ted's of the nation approved.<br /><br />In the meantime, we'll try not to bore you.<br /><br />"What barriers are still in place keeping poor black people down, that aren't self inflicted and similar to ones that keep poor white people down?"<br /><br />White people are great:<br /><br />Blacks got really, really, really strong laws in place, that stop us from really, really, really wanting to wantonly kill you anymore - for the heinous crime of making us uncomfortable - so, Jesus Christ, what more could you want?<br /><br />Since we suffer from an inflicted poverty (which racists like Mom Jeans are having a wonderful time exploiting) I'd say the lack of reparations is the first barrier - so, unless you can prove the United States government, with the aid of it's white citizens, deliberately exploited and deprived it's white citizens of justice for centuries, that'll be one.<br /><br />Anybody for two?<br /><br />The Crack Emceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08366101526773588864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-26427281554101876622014-08-12T15:27:22.067-05:002014-08-12T15:27:22.067-05:00"My sense that it's true comes from the e..."My sense that it's true comes from the embodied intuition and empathy that I feel is relatively lacking in libertarians."<br /><br />*snort*<br /><br />The statist has empathy for those who could be helped by government.<br /><br />The libertarian has empathy for those who are hurt by government.<br />clinthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15002827680487639155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48699368468786250832014-08-12T14:58:35.568-05:002014-08-12T14:58:35.568-05:00Libertarians don't vote in social liberalism a...Libertarians don't vote in social liberalism and then vote in bailouts for the people's excesses, unless they're not thinking beyond stage one. But that's not saying as much as you might think - a <i>lot</i> people don't think beyond stage one.<br /><br />I claim that those who think beyond stage one, will tend to be libertarians more often than not. They say, not only will I enjoy the fruits of my own freedom, I will also shoulder my own responsibilities, they might be tough, but that's a tradeoff I prefer. Moreover, I'd like everyone else to be able to make that trade, or not, as they prefer.<br /><br />Some people have sexual freedom and get by fine, without outside assistance. They learn their own way to manage it and enjoy it at the same time, in a way that satisfies them and begs nothing from anyone else. Some manage divorce or bad marriages without hurting the children. Some smoke pot. Some make risky investments.<br /><br />Some of them do this by adopting various social conservative practices. This does not make them social conservatives; that they wasted time and should have just been conservative all along. For one thing, they don't always adopt the entire value package. For two, they don't impose their preferred package on everyone else.<br /><br />The PR problem I see with libertarians is that that Vulcan uncaring image is hard to justify to someone who won't think past stage one. Yes, there is wealth over there, and it could fix this problem over here. No, I won't take that wealth, even though it wouldn't help, because it's not mine to take.<br /><br />It's tempting to question why the libertarian adheres so axiomatically to this rule about property and wealth. It is possible that for some of them, it <i>is</i> nothing beyond that axiom; it's a lazy moral shortcut. I would like to believe that most libertarians have thought beyond this and realize that if you take that wealth today, it will not be there tomorrow, and the problem here will be a problem again. Whether they think that far ahead or not, though, it is a fact. People cannot be milked for wealth like animals, in either a liberal or conservative moral framework.<br />Paul Brinkleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08403755675434905417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38825176468069112602014-08-12T14:47:55.281-05:002014-08-12T14:47:55.281-05:00Xmas,
"Libertarians look out and see local p...Xmas,<br /><br />"Libertarians look out and see local police forces getting APCs, M16s and grenades and fear for all citizens. Libertarians see the State used as a hammer to keep blacks oppressed and they want to remove power from the State. The rest of you clamor for more State, thinking that a bigger hammer will fix the problem this time."<br /><br />I hear that - I've talked to my share of libertarians - but they all share a fatal flaw:<br /><br />They think the answer, to what's happened to blacks, is to say "nuts" - like it's just bad luck and we should "move on" as NewAgers always advise.<br /><br />Well, fuck that - it's crazytalk - if blacks need to use the weight of the government, to offset being outnumbered by whites (including white Libertarians) then fuck Libertarianism.<br /><br />And, for all their big talk about supporting our ideals and identifying with our struggle, I've never met a Libertarian at a Civil Rights meeting,...The Crack Emceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08366101526773588864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23905044939474852082014-08-12T14:46:27.204-05:002014-08-12T14:46:27.204-05:00The Hate Whitey shtick is old.
What barriers are...The Hate Whitey shtick is old. <br /><br />What barriers are still in place keeping poor black people down, that aren't self inflicted and similar to ones that keep poor white people down?SGT Tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00184808889760136366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-47840445074867336252014-08-12T14:40:07.978-05:002014-08-12T14:40:07.978-05:00President-Mom-Jeans,
"MSNBC hosts and the vo...President-Mom-Jeans,<br /><br />"MSNBC hosts and the voices in the heads of poverty stricken bigots like Crack is not "everyone.""<br /><br />Salon, Slate, The Daily Show, The Colbert Report, Last Week Tonight, ABC, NBC, CBS, liberals, blacks, Mexicans, most women, and anyone who grasps our culture when it's not deciphered through Red State.<br /><br />That's ALMOST everyone,...The Crack Emceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08366101526773588864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87838340725657574492014-08-12T14:32:25.815-05:002014-08-12T14:32:25.815-05:00President-Mom-Jeans,
"Whose lives?"
Ja...President-Mom-Jeans,<br /><br />"Whose lives?"<br /><br />Jay-Z is a millionaire - from the projects to Paris - faster than almost anyone has a right to. That couldn't happen before Rap ripped a hole in the culture.<br /><br />"Blacks in general?"<br /><br />Are there bodies hanging in train stations, still? That's an improvement - at least in white behavior.<br /><br />"The unemployment and poverty numbers do not support that assertion."<br /><br />You judge an entire people by one factor? That's dumb.<br /><br />"Out of wedlock births, same story."<br /><br />You keep asserting that, like blacks have been walking a straight line they diverted from - it's a lie. Whites broke up black families, and we've been making them up ever since - just ask all of our "uncles" and "cousins." <br /><br />You know so little, blacks shouldn't even be your topic of interest.<br /><br />"You personally?"<br /><br />I'm alright.<br /><br />"What, did those sores on your face heal up?"<br /><br />My getting dry skin really rocked your world, didn't it?<br /><br />What a perv,...The Crack Emceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08366101526773588864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19178901660794894172014-08-12T14:20:57.473-05:002014-08-12T14:20:57.473-05:00Gahrie,
"Is that a tacit admission that it i...Gahrie,<br /><br />"Is that a tacit admission that it is mainly White men paying everybody's bills?"<br /><br />As much as it's a tacit admission it was mainly white men who fucked everything up,...The Crack Emceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08366101526773588864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52359955550618092032014-08-12T13:49:38.244-05:002014-08-12T13:49:38.244-05:00Correction: I meant "libertarians WON'T q...Correction: I meant "libertarians WON'T quietly submit to that."<br /><br />Type in haste, repent at leisure.Bilwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12264809254712506094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86907058726574427042014-08-12T13:48:26.315-05:002014-08-12T13:48:26.315-05:00"Liberals" (and by "liberals" ..."Liberals" (and by "liberals" I mean of course "tax-happy, coercion-addicted, power-tripping State-fellators") almost never portray libertarianism accurately or say honestly what it is about a devotion to liberty that they actually object to. I can tell you--and I do--what I object to about "liberalism:" I don't like to be bullied; no "liberal" has ever explained to me logically why their gang has the right to force the rest of us what they want us to do; nor have they explained logically and convincingly why my life and propert don't belong to me but to them, to dispose of as they see it.<br /><br />Could they not be as honest? Just say: "I hate libertarians because I like using the State to force people to do things I want them to do and spend their money the way I want it spent--and libertarians would quietly submit to that." Is that so difficult to say, State-fellators?Bilwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12264809254712506094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-67120450529044093732014-08-12T13:30:32.239-05:002014-08-12T13:30:32.239-05:00Crack,
You didn't fix that for me.
-Gun laws...Crack,<br /><br />You didn't fix that for me.<br /><br />-Gun laws are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act" rel="nofollow">used to keep guns out of the hands of blacks, so they cannot defend themselves.</a><br />-Drug laws are used to punish blacks (and the poor in general).<br />-Rent control promotes terrible housing for the poor.<br />-Eminent domain and "blight" laws are used to destroy black neighborhoods.<br />-Welfare laws promote single motherhood and erode the basic foundation of family.<br />-Being on Medicaid has statistically worse outcomes than having no insurance at all.<br /><br />Libertarians look out and see local police forces getting APCs, M16s and grenades and fear for all citizens. Libertarians see the State used as a hammer to keep blacks oppressed and they want to remove power from the State. The rest of you clamor for more State, thinking that a bigger hammer will fix the problem this time.Xmashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10512911190985990931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61063820920247458182014-08-12T13:01:04.088-05:002014-08-12T13:01:04.088-05:00"everyone agrees the Republican Party has bee..."everyone agrees the Republican Party has been infiltrated by racists since the Tea Party "joined."<br /><br />MSNBC hosts and the voices in the heads of poverty stricken bigots like Crack is not "everyone."President-Mom-Jeanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02787201862556497671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31100438487443327872014-08-12T12:59:14.874-05:002014-08-12T12:59:14.874-05:00"our lives are slowly improving"
Whose ..."our lives are slowly improving"<br /><br />Whose lives? Blacks in general? The unemployment and poverty numbers do not support that assertion. Out of wedlock births, same story.<br /><br />You personally? <br /><br />What, did those sores on your face heal up?President-Mom-Jeanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02787201862556497671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-51027091615719416992014-08-12T12:35:54.788-05:002014-08-12T12:35:54.788-05:00"We need to limit voting to those who are act...<i>"We need to limit voting to those who are actually are going to pay the bill."<br /><br />Ahh - so the oppressed will be kept out and the oppressors make all the decisions.</i><br /><br />Why do you equate "those who pay the bills" with "oppressors"?<br /><br />Is that a tacit admission that it is mainly White men paying everybody's bills?<br /><br />Gahriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795449308207016641noreply@blogger.com