tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post5458122199019293188..comments2024-03-29T03:05:05.850-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Patient secretly recorded doctors as they operated on her. Should she be so distressed by what she heard?"Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger109125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40034178317627507102016-04-10T14:40:07.506-05:002016-04-10T14:40:07.506-05:00SeanF: The questions (and my answers):
1) Will an...SeanF: The questions (and my answers):<br />1) Will an audio recording encourage the doctors to have a more attentive, serious conversation--as opposed to an insulting, crass or irreverent conversation? Yes.<br />2) Will that change in conversational tone and content tend to cause a more respectful or empathetic physical treatment? Yes.<br />3) Finally, will that lead to more successful procedures? Probably yes.<br />There is some evidence to suggest that empathy can get in the way of a dispassionate, technically demanding optimal treatment, but that good doctors can turn the empathy on and off to avoid the distraction.<br /><br />My anecdote speaks to whether doctors are more respectful when they are monitored. Your point speaks to whether audio monitoring has any affect on physical treatment. I'd suggest the conversational respect and physical respect feed into each other.JRPtwohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16431220664751338699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-60576617139379176382016-04-09T17:30:30.410-05:002016-04-09T17:30:30.410-05:00JRPtwo: I've had colonoscopies without anesthe...<b>JRPtwo:</b> <i>I've had colonoscopies without anesthetics (not particularly painful, less drug risk, common in other countries) It was clear that the monitoring caused the doctor to treat my body with more respect. She shoved me around and then, remembering I was awake, apologized for the casual treatment. So I'm with Ann that the audio monitoring encourages a professional atmosphere.</i><br /><br />So, you didn't <b>see</b> or <b>feel</b> her "shov[ing] you around", but you <b>heard</b> it?SeanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09697328067457248454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-43554155948538134662016-04-09T02:06:12.241-05:002016-04-09T02:06:12.241-05:00I've had colonoscopies without anesthetics (no...I've had colonoscopies without anesthetics (not particularly painful, less drug risk, common in other countries) It was clear that the monitoring caused the doctor to treat my body with more respect. She shoved me around and then, remembering I was awake, apologized for the casual treatment. So I'm with Ann that the audio monitoring encourages a professional atmosphere.JRPtwohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270966907645030080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77880730961180512332016-04-08T23:09:06.192-05:002016-04-08T23:09:06.192-05:00My point is the patient should have a right to mak...<i>My point is the patient should have a right to make a recording....It seems to be part of a person's sovereignty over her body.</i><br /><br />There is a fundamental distinction between *recording* a surgery and *bugging* a surgery. There is no need to allow bugging just to get a recording.<br /><br />Even if it's a right, that right can be bargained away, right? It's not clear that a hospital would want to agree to surgeries being recorded -- too easy for an "Oops, my finger slipped" to turn into a lawsuit.Zachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02284350648793830503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9238783305407614972016-04-08T22:50:42.446-05:002016-04-08T22:50:42.446-05:00"Posting gibberish does not make any kind of ..."Posting gibberish does not make any kind of point."<br /><br />Cookie think "Silent Spring" was non-fiction.Michael Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18127450762129879267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56672651036434491612016-04-08T19:39:07.896-05:002016-04-08T19:39:07.896-05:00Robert Cook said...
"Most likely to kill...<i>Robert Cook said...<br /><br /> "Most likely to kill you?<br /><br /> "Given the history of the 1900s I suspect Leftists elected or assuming power are most likely to kill you.<br /><br /> "Also, people named Rachel Carson."</i><br /><br /> <b>Posting gibberish does not make any kind of point.</b><br /><br />As does not having a sense of humor. .FullMoonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541560904252155570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-10918458065786973492016-04-08T18:50:19.168-05:002016-04-08T18:50:19.168-05:00"You are goddamn lucky to be unconscous durin...<i>"You are goddamn lucky to be unconscous during surgery. You think doctors who are slicing you open for your own benefit are going to talk about you as an equal? You're not."</i><br /><br />Like hell, we're not. We're paying doctors a good sum of money to perform services for us--<i>on us</i>--and they should not talk about us in our presence--even if we're <i>presumably</i> unconscious--in any way other than professionally and as necessary to conduct the services they're being paid to perform. If they have any snide comments to make, they should do so in the privacy of their break rooms, far away from the patient and the operating theater.Robert Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06951286299515983901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19432675706383443742016-04-08T18:43:44.554-05:002016-04-08T18:43:44.554-05:00"Most likely to kill you?
"Given the hi...<i>"Most likely to kill you?<br /><br />"Given the history of the 1900s I suspect Leftists elected or assuming power are most likely to kill you.<br /><br />"Also, people named Rachel Carson."</i><br /><br />Posting gibberish does not make any kind of point.Robert Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06951286299515983901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32065526671351389752016-04-08T18:13:24.381-05:002016-04-08T18:13:24.381-05:00I think I commented on the previous post on this t...I think I commented on the previous post on this topic.<br /><br />I have had multiple examples of patients telling me what was said in the OR and I always warned staff about talking about the patient. I have couple of stories of patients coming awake under anesthesia and feeling the pain in my book. The listening is not usually associated with pain and is pretty common in patients in coma. "Vigilant coma" it is called.<br /><br />When I began to do laparoscopic surgery, initially gallbladders and then appendectomies and hernia repairs, I videotaped the surgery. It was easy to do since the entire operation is seen on TV by the surgeon. I kept the tapes for a month and then offered them to the patient. About half wanted them. One child took his video of his appendectomy to school to "share" and it created a bit of a commotion since this was in 1989 and very early in laparoscopy surgery.<br /><br />I understand that hospital lawyers later advised against taping but think this was bad advice. The video is evidence that the surgeon did nothing wrong. Of course, if a mistake is on the video, it should be immediately corrected.<br /><br />Videotaping the surgery from the exterior would probably not show much of the operation and would be very intrusive. I have had spouses want to watch the surgery and I always turned them down. A famous case at UCLA involved a rather weird heart surgeon who wanted to watch his wife's heart surgery from the dome viewing sites in the OR ceiling. When there was a problem with the surgery, he panicked and ran down and tried to take over. After that, families were not allowed there.Michael Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18127450762129879267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52893671807348463902016-04-08T17:55:12.515-05:002016-04-08T17:55:12.515-05:00You are goddamn lucky to be unconscous during surg...You are goddamn lucky to be unconscous during surgery. You think doctors who are slicing you open for your own benefit are going to talk about you as an equal? You're not.befinnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15727335877486138162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3431164648381251162016-04-08T16:39:39.495-05:002016-04-08T16:39:39.495-05:00Ann Althouse: "Give me an example of a potent...<b>Ann Althouse:</b> <i>"Give me an example of a potential use."<br /><br />To influence doctors and nurses to treat your unconscious body with respect. To learn whether you are being insulted, whether there is an attentive, serious atmosphere as you undergo a procedure, and to get some sense of whether the personnel are working as an effective, knowledgable team.</i><br /><br />How does an <b>audio</b> recording tell you if they're treating your body with respect?<br /><br />Why does it matter if you're being insulted <b>during</b> the procedure, as opposed to afterwards?<br /><br />Whether the personnel were working as an effective, knowledgable team will be apparent by the results of the procedure, won't it?SeanFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09697328067457248454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48491024367217996862016-04-08T16:13:18.184-05:002016-04-08T16:13:18.184-05:00Most likely to kill you?
Given the history of the...Most likely to kill you?<br /><br />Given the history of the 1900s I suspect Leftists elected or assuming power are most likely to kill you.<br /><br />Also, people named Rachel Carson.Birkelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14205292523499913507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-84633166485089676892016-04-08T16:04:19.399-05:002016-04-08T16:04:19.399-05:00All operating rooms should be equipped to video-re...All operating rooms should be equipped to video-record all operations from several angles. This would provide a valuable teaching tool as well as a defense against malpractice. As for doctors' "right to privacy", they're on the job, and it's well-established that everything you say and do on the job belongs to your employer (in this case, the patient and/or hospital.)Smilin' Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01501763605001379362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-60399641307735455062016-04-08T16:02:53.211-05:002016-04-08T16:02:53.211-05:00There appears to be no legal requirement anywhere ...There appears to be no legal requirement anywhere in the US that a man secure his wife's permission prior to a vasectomy. I am not a lawyer, but it would seem to be a pretty obvious privacy violation to require either permission or notification.CachorroQuentehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13971149640597297640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-81605922877875488242016-04-08T16:01:51.089-05:002016-04-08T16:01:51.089-05:00I imagine the reason doctors don't want these ...I imagine the reason doctors don't want these things recorded isn't so much to enable them to insult the patient or let out steam as it is to allow them to discuss freely any surgical procedure and decisions without having to worry if extemporaneous discussion could lead to a lawsuit (e.g., "the doctor said he was considering doing a secondary procedure at that point, why did he decide not to do that?"). That in turn might reduce communication among staff as they would worry about what they have to say and if it is taken out of context.Brandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06219319435229314554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-13681143584069100732016-04-08T15:45:28.202-05:002016-04-08T15:45:28.202-05:00About ten years ago, when cellphone cameras became...About ten years ago, when cellphone cameras became ubiquitous, a major teaching hospital in the US was hit with a scandal. A student came forward to complain about other students exposing females that were sedated and taking pictures. Pretty ones got a cock in the side of their mouths. Women were subjected to gyn exams, even when they were there for other surgery. And students that weren't in that rotation participated. The school collected phones and cameras and waded through the pictures and promptly called their lawyers. There were charges that lawyers erased evidence--like the pics of this one nurse who collected rat figurines who would take pics with said rats in vaginas of patients that had given her lip. Stuff had been going on for years and everyone kept quiet. Unless programs were put in place, I suspect it's still happening. Darrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11277966379512526469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-82502655682636686742016-04-08T15:33:59.257-05:002016-04-08T15:33:59.257-05:00Future such issues can be easily avoided by amendm...Future such issues can be easily avoided by amendment to the Affraudable Care Act to mandate the presence of a Patient Ombudsperson in the operating room. <br /><br />A qualified and credentialed Mediator should be on call for timely resolution of complaints which the Ombudsperson may raise about hospital staff behavior.<br /><br />Insurance will pay for these, so there is really no added cost.Hammond X. Gritzkofehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00699475004094115240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-51389963754205427632016-04-08T14:52:25.633-05:002016-04-08T14:52:25.633-05:00Lawyer's and Professor's offices need cons...Lawyer's and Professor's offices need constant monitoring too, just in case their bad mouthing their clients and students when they're not around.Fritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08403113111574246294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11790869801527561302016-04-08T14:50:17.334-05:002016-04-08T14:50:17.334-05:00Now, I hope you have enough philosophy in your tem...<i>Now, I hope you have enough philosophy in your temperament, that when you find out your allergy concerns were dismissed by doctors who insulted you, and discussed inappropriately photographing and touching you, as well as mocking you, when you were unconscious and completely at their mercy--and to top it all off, you have to go back to the emergency room because you were, in fact, allergic to what they gave you and dismissed your concerns about--I hope you have enough philosophy in your temperament to react to the experience as you did when it happened to someone else.<br /><br />4/8/16, 2:01 PM</i><br /><br />You didn't hear the recording. All you have to go on is someone else's opinion of what they might have been talking about. I hope you're never judged on something someone else thinks you might have meant. Especially when you are prevented from commenting to defend yourself because of something like patient confidentiality but the person accusing you can say whatever they want.<br /><br />And, yes, I think that if my only report of an allergy is that "When I was a baby, they said I swelled up" and no other problems for 40-something years, then I think I would think they made a rational choice. (Again - see previous link - it's recommended for people with penicillin allergies.)Mary Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05754684233296448192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41240087742671375362016-04-08T14:39:59.872-05:002016-04-08T14:39:59.872-05:00A friend who is a urologist tells hilarious storie...A friend who is a urologist tells hilarious stories at dinner parties about crazy operations that he does, what he has to remove from penises etc. He also says that the nurses are very interested in seeing the junk the patients have and cracking wise about it (yes, pun intended). Now that I consider it, I would feel creeped out if I was under the knife in his operating room. but I have always considered it kind of a victimless crime.johnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13744733211467011152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11173250733630803992016-04-08T14:39:34.633-05:002016-04-08T14:39:34.633-05:00I'd be more comfortable with this if the OR st...I'd be more comfortable with this if the OR staff knew that they were being taped. Past practice gave them an expectation of privacy in their conversations about the patient. Why is she the only one with rights in this setting?..........People acting under conditions of extreme stress can easily make the wrong decision. If we prosecute those who screw up to the full extent of the law and presume malicious intent, will we get more and better people to volunteer for such stressful jobs?Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07837540030934495651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50017531522947666142016-04-08T14:30:52.720-05:002016-04-08T14:30:52.720-05:00Or, what Madison Man said.Or, what Madison Man said.Robert Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06951286299515983901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65688925726087945142016-04-08T14:28:54.332-05:002016-04-08T14:28:54.332-05:00"Why 'doctors and cops' specifically?...<i>"Why 'doctors and cops' specifically?"</i><br /><br />Because doctors and cops have respectively unique and privileged power over others, a power than can often be abused, in situations where, typically, the person subject to the doctor or cop's power is essentially or literally helpless.Robert Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06951286299515983901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19257477621127643212016-04-08T14:20:12.715-05:002016-04-08T14:20:12.715-05:00While we are at it: taxpayers should have full vid...While we are at it: taxpayers should have full video access to all classes taught by instructors at institutions paid for in part by their money. In America, after all, it is not the individual but "the people" who are sovereign, and as our hostess has told us, it is sovereignty that governs here.Sebastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00505631054204611033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-6930021781616643682016-04-08T14:17:43.476-05:002016-04-08T14:17:43.476-05:00It's a form of voyeurism. Who really gives a c...It's a form of voyeurism. Who really gives a crap what the mechanic says when he's working on your engine. Be satisfied that your bad diet and potatoe chip plunking fat ass can still be repaired.<br /><br />Although it would be neat for the morgue to listen to after they move you to the freezer.Etiennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02463542962653770911noreply@blogger.com