tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post5383503514948749418..comments2024-03-29T00:04:32.434-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Black students, especially boys, face much harsher discipline in public schools than other students..."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger102125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37421285648232952082012-03-08T15:43:56.851-06:002012-03-08T15:43:56.851-06:00Given what I've read about the often chaotic n...Given what I've read about the often chaotic nature of classroom behavior in majority black inner city schools, if anything I'd guess the rate of disciplining black students is less than their rate of disrupting class, hitting other students, and so on.Doug1https://www.blogger.com/profile/13948793969077395057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-62523316539941259992012-03-07T00:21:50.109-06:002012-03-07T00:21:50.109-06:00Prairie Wind: Italians used to be big crime figure...<i>Prairie Wind: Italians used to be big crime figures during Prohibition. After liquor was legalized, the Italians managed to bring their crime rates down. </i><br /><br />This is true. We could bring the time rate down to zero if we legalized robbery, rape and assault too.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10438099877519107411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-53620636115342079192012-03-06T22:23:41.059-06:002012-03-06T22:23:41.059-06:00I hate to be the racist on the board, but I will p...I hate to be the racist on the board, but I will point out that it is NOT liberal policies that are the problem.<br /><br />First we need to agree on some things. Number one being that the school environment is not as stable as it was even 10 years ago.<br />Ipods, laptops, cellphones, just start the chaos. Add in cliques, gangs, clubs. Clothes, and race to top it off. In the best school system teachers vie for the attention of the students while in class. Outside the classroom, add in tv, movies, and just hanging with friends, make for poor study habits. Poor study habits make for poor students.<br /><br />So we have, a mixture of good to bad students in most schools. As others have stated ZT policies add to he perception of a problem. Recall a story last week where a 4th grader drew a picture of a gun. The authorities were so horrified, they arrested the girls father, and stripped searched him.<br /><br />But here is where the tire meets the road...look at the major liberal cities in the country, and their school situation. Portland/Seattle, Chicago, Denver, Detroit, San Francisco, Austin, New york City.<br /><br />All liberal cities. But they do not have near the same problem of school discipline. Why? What is the difference? Do I have to spell it out? Detroit schools are so bad that more than 50% of its graduates are illiterate. And it ain't because whitey is holding a brother down. In fact, Detroit is made up almost entirely of black people. And that's the way they want it. When Michigan moved to take control of this disaster of a school system, the city authorities cried "RACISM!"<br /><br />I would posit that Seattle or San Fran. is even more liberal than Chicago, or Detroit, but they don't have near the problem that the "chocolate cities" have.<br /><br />There is a big problem in black America, and it won't be solved by white liberals.Carnifexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12561390087899686588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39428558828250449512012-03-06T21:07:10.749-06:002012-03-06T21:07:10.749-06:00"""In our broader social policies, ..."""In our broader social policies, do we help the weak or poor or underprivileged by maintaining the social and moral structures that help them stay away from devastating problems?"""<br /><br />One thing that has not been brought up is that various interests groups (ACLU, etc.) have forced change in schools regarding discipline. As always, these seem to be well meaning. However, I have read about the 10 percent of children that make a school room chaos and, sadly make impossible learning by the 90 percent. I think this relates to the above point. <br /><br />Also, we hear so much about bullying in school. If teachers and administrators were truly in charge how could there be bullying? The poor kids that are non-aggressive must feel like they are in prison and there are no guards around to protect them.<br /><br />If we are ever to make our schools effective again for inner city children we may need to triage out the children who are toxic to order and learning so that a larger part of the survivable kids can be saved.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17333132048552751053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88146285678898007882012-03-06T19:47:03.966-06:002012-03-06T19:47:03.966-06:00What difference does it make? It's not like t...What difference does it make? It's not like the education establishment is going to blame the kids or the teachers, but rather "the system" and "typical conservative racists."Blue@9https://www.blogger.com/profile/16371286571496793710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-54552961999787496492012-03-06T18:28:32.569-06:002012-03-06T18:28:32.569-06:00This seems to mirror the disproportionate number o...This seems to mirror the disproportionate number of arrests made of black men.<br /><br />This is so because of lived culture.Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09082051710068390275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91632670034019858812012-03-06T18:22:24.493-06:002012-03-06T18:22:24.493-06:00As others have pointed out, the assumption that be...As others have pointed out, the assumption that behavior is the same across races is absurd. How do they explain the higher imprisonment rate of adult blacks? Is that all racism also?<br /><br />There are significant differences in the dominant cultures of blacks, whites, Asians, Hispanics and other groups in America. If not, why do we "celebrate" diversity?<br /><br />That said, I don't doubt for a minute there is some bias. I've seen it based on race and I've seen it based on gender. In my observation, which is supported by the report, the bias against boys is stronger than the racial bias. Like Ann, I've had my kids' teachers exonerate entire classes of girls while convicting all the boys. When I confronted the teacher about this, she gave me the "To being with..." crap and that I'm not a teach, so I don't know what it's like, etc. She was an idiot, which, unfortunately, isn't too uncommon in teachers.<br /><br />We need to toss them all out and start over. Some are good enough to earn their way back in, many aren't.DADvocatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04621021178600799126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50195147629328370492012-03-06T17:26:45.633-06:002012-03-06T17:26:45.633-06:00bagoh20: I suspect that racism, sexism, and income...bagoh20: <i>I suspect that racism, sexism, and income inequality will be all the rage for EXACTLY 8 more months.</i><br /><br />And afterward, the rage will be all about the homeless. <br /><br />And the MSM will start telling us just how bad the economy really is.<br /><br />And the liberals lecturing us about Sara Fluke will be calling for the gangrape of the First Lady.Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79970939777291058682012-03-06T17:21:38.379-06:002012-03-06T17:21:38.379-06:00Fathers. Does the data also look is their father i...<i>Fathers. Does the data also look is their father is active in the boy's life.</i><br /><br />Sidebet that the majority of these kids have the same daddy - the State.Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-12969346990878221542012-03-06T16:27:21.415-06:002012-03-06T16:27:21.415-06:00I agree that women teachers have difficulty handli...I agree that women teachers have difficulty handling boys. My oldest son's third grade teacher referred evry boy in the class for ADD testing. Every single one. She just didn't want to be bothered with them.Ctmom4https://www.blogger.com/profile/08128317047887374047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29850159647084854812012-03-06T15:55:34.360-06:002012-03-06T15:55:34.360-06:00Oh I know! Walker's budget cuts have led white...Oh I know! Walker's budget cuts have led white teachers to be racist to black kids!<br /><br />When all you have is a hammer...Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-575378472566662042012-03-06T15:54:42.726-06:002012-03-06T15:54:42.726-06:00A single one of our liberal "friends" to...A single one of our liberal "friends" to weigh in on the rampant racism of Wisconsin schools?Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57858416851047185602012-03-06T13:42:20.498-06:002012-03-06T13:42:20.498-06:00So the teachers need to be aware of black cultural...So the teachers need to be aware of black cultural values? What are those? That they are more social and like to joke around and talk out in class? That's about all I can think of, and I can see where that doesn't work out well. Funny, that schools that cater to black discipline problems usually end up being very disciplined like almost military academies.cathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16443235891957402834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-30457067656477652282012-03-06T13:08:34.664-06:002012-03-06T13:08:34.664-06:00They'll understand the kids' cultural norm...<i>They'll understand the kids' cultural norms about questioning authority. </i><br /><br />I did not say that questioning authority is a black cultural norm. I said that so many black kids have had bad experiences with the law that it would be worth seeing if those experiences lead to a loss of trust in authority. The War on Drugs and the War on Poverty have destroyed many families. White kids with the same experiences with the law--SWAT teams serving search warrants in the middle of the night, watching Mom or Dad get handcuffed on the ground, losing a parent to prison for minor infractions--white kids would have the same difficulties. The difference could be that a larger percentage of the black community has been touched by the court system than white.prairie windhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602315347389233974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-42817628518988860362012-03-06T12:52:57.496-06:002012-03-06T12:52:57.496-06:00I think that a lot of the posters above nailed the...I think that a lot of the posters above nailed the main culprit here. "Poor" black culture is just not conducive towards learning to live in a "white" world. And, there is some indications that there is a lot of pressure to not excel in school, because then they wouldn't be sufficiently black. <br /><br />And, I think that the big reason for this is the breakdown of the Black family, chronicled by Daniel Patrick Moynihan almost 50 years ago. <br /><br />Blacks have been the primary victims of the War on Poverty and all the succeeding welfare and social programs purportedly designed to benefit them. And, the big way that they have been harmed is that fatherless parenting has been encouraged and subsidized by the big government programs designed to help them. <br /><br />We are at a point right now where adult males in these poorer Black communities take pride in the number of children that they are able to father with the greatest number of women, that they take no financial, paternal, or moral responsibility for.<br /><br />Yet, we see from studies on other animals, as well as demographic studies on our own, that adolescent males in particular need strong male discipline and role models if they are to be properly domesticated. And, yes, it helps the girls a lot too to have a closely related male in the household in a male role model position. <br /><br />So, the lesson that probably should be learned here is that liberal social policies invariably have (to them) unexpected consequences that very often make things far worse for the supposed beneficiaries of those policies and programs.Bruce Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10815293023158025662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-59907413002684188322012-03-06T12:51:13.976-06:002012-03-06T12:51:13.976-06:00@William - Good point which raises this point.
Ar...@William - Good point which raises this point.<br /><br />Are we to understand that black teachers don't want classroom discipline? Let me tell you that at my wife's school, black and white teachers work together, and both have to deal with misbehavior. When black teachers can't discipline black children who misbehave - the consequences are no less disastrous. It is in the interest of African-Americans (those who live in say the inner city) to have law and order in their neighborhoods as well as classrooms. It is in their interest to have leaders who help develop "organic competencies" in their community, see http://withintheblackcommunity.blogspot.com/ which offers a unique and desperately needed perspective.Rick67https://www.blogger.com/profile/16764011597156012973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-92202667487773645222012-03-06T12:32:50.034-06:002012-03-06T12:32:50.034-06:00Black kids get punished for misbehavior more often...Black kids get punished for misbehavior more often than white kids. The explanation for this: teachers are, at best, insensitive to how this looks, or incompetent, or bigoted. The supposition that underlies this explanation is itself extremely prejudiced.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07837540030934495651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68841875751257576682012-03-06T12:27:53.808-06:002012-03-06T12:27:53.808-06:00"These are very uncomfortable and disturbing ..."These are very uncomfortable and disturbing statistics, and the solutions are far from clear."<br /><br />The late Prof. Wm Stuntz (HLS) devoted a lot of attention to similar statistics in the criminal justice system. Among other stats that he discusses is the fact that some 70% of black males who do not finish high school end up in prison. His last book (The Collapse of American Criminal Justice) discusses the many and varied causes for those dismal facts. For those who don't have time to read it, there are many reviews available on the web, as well as a symposium about Stuntz's views conducted at Penn Law in 2011after his death. Well worth a look if you're interested in getting past the cliches abd stereotypes that always abound when a topic like this comes up. (And for those who distrust anything that comes out of Harvard LS, Stuntz was as far from an academic lefty as one could get -- probably the only Christian evangelical to obtain tenure there since the 19th century.)Richard Dolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12735773524374061429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57291414875516416592012-03-06T12:26:32.195-06:002012-03-06T12:26:32.195-06:00"Zero Tolerance" rules are put in place ..."Zero Tolerance" rules are put in place so dumb bureaucrats don't have to pretend to try to think. Sometimes folks on the right are in favor, like when they think (often correctly) that judges or others are abusing their discretion, but no matter how laudable to goals seem, removing discretion is never a good policy. <br /><br />A policy which treats an aspirin like a kilo of coke, and a pen knife like a machete makes no sense. Also, ZT policies treat a person who fights back the same as the person who started the fight, which is not only grossly unfair but teaches kids life lessons which are completely ass-backwards.holdfasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15206911009978107266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89392433971514455692012-03-06T12:22:57.280-06:002012-03-06T12:22:57.280-06:00paul a'barge -
"What nonsense. Althouse ...paul a'barge -<br /><br />"What nonsense. Althouse is getting ready to vote for Obama ... again."<br /><br />================<br />You say that without evidence. I have detected no signals that AA will not give Romney a fair hearing.<br />And McCain did little to make people in the middle regret their vote for Obama, looking back.<br /><br />In the last 4 years, McCain showed he was clueless on the economy and supported the bailouts. He opposed winding down the Iraq War, opposes leaving Afghanistan when just another 10 years and 400 billion dollars could give us Victory! McCain has also proposed military action and more wars. Burma, Venezuela, Libya, Somalia, Yemen..And now he wants us to attack Syria while he waits in bloodthirsty anticipation for a big, bloody war with Iran.Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88500850557594601352012-03-06T12:04:06.090-06:002012-03-06T12:04:06.090-06:00How about this solution? Put all the black kids in...How about this solution? Put all the black kids in one set of schools, with all black teachers and administrators. They'll understand the kids' cultural norms about questioning authority. Put all the white kids in another set of schools, with all white teachers and administrators. They'll understand white cultural norms--whatever those are.<br /><br />Then impose as much discipline as the law allows, and watch learning outcomes improve.<br /><br />I understand this may have been tried in the distant past, and abandoned for some reason.Chip S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13210586187250159751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79239980734872845522012-03-06T11:59:44.242-06:002012-03-06T11:59:44.242-06:00Prarie, we completely agree about idiots. I routin...Prarie, we completely agree about idiots. I routinely tell school age kids to never draw a gun at school or bring a play gun to school because they may be expelled.<br /><br />I have to talk to their parents about what can happen if they punch the bully in the nose as the school will not distinguish between bullying and stopping the bully!<br /><br />What a sad state!<br /><br />Thanks for letting me clarify, the dirty little secret was not for you, you already know it! It is for our culture, the elephant we ignore even as we complain about the strong smell of feces.<br /><br />TreyTMinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07221261635305430323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23954537555620089462012-03-06T11:55:44.560-06:002012-03-06T11:55:44.560-06:00Very touchy topic that is useless to raise except ...Very touchy topic that is useless to raise except in a way that suggests that whites are all racists. It is not going to go away and it is not going to get better. Our liberal betters' low expectations and their growing sense that they contributed to or even created the problem will make progress impossible. I am completely discouraged by this. Totally. We have fucked it up so badly.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08258681007386089907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-82447240188779936472012-03-06T11:16:49.431-06:002012-03-06T11:16:49.431-06:00Warning - yet another "I am a teacher / my sp...Warning - yet another "I am a teacher / my spouse is a teacher" comment.<br /><br />But my wife is a teacher and 98% of her students are African-American. She has one "bad" class which means chronic behavior problems. The others might have individual kids who get into chronic trouble.<br /><br />There is a movement - directed from the district which it seems to be directed from the state? federal? government - *not* to discipline children so much. It looks bad. All those suspensions and expulsions! So they let kids get away with raw in-your-face disrespect and defiance. Not to mention abusing and bullying their peers.<br /><br />You know what the result is? The behavior problems start going through the roof. Because kids see, There are no consequences!<br /><br />I believe in Positive Behavior reinforcement. Special rewards for doing things right or well. But you can't throw out Negative Behavior consequences. If you do then order starts to break down and teachers *cannot teach* because too many kids simply refuse to cooperate. <br /><br />Don't be too quick to blame this on "bad parenting". I'm middle class with a PhD and my wife and I aren't sure about our own parenting record. Some of these kids come from pretty rough situations. I'll spare you the details and sob stories - but many of them are genuinely tragic.<br /><br />But I also think it's part of a large phenomenon, how the left is encouraging a culture of "if you have something I want, I can take it; why work for anything when I can get what I want for free; I don't have to follow the rules if I don't want to". I think these kids see this philosophy of life being followed by the ruling class and begin to absorb it themselves.<br /><br />I have high regard for Ann Althouse, but the comment about "gee, let's just have more charter schools that try different approaches" strikes me not as altogether wrong but rather naive.<br /><br />You *cannot* let kids misbehave without consequences. You can't. And when we do it poisons everything, for teachers and children both, and cultivates a generation of kids who are not on the way toward becoming responsible adults.Rick67https://www.blogger.com/profile/16764011597156012973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34059893253823377202012-03-06T11:07:42.291-06:002012-03-06T11:07:42.291-06:00Kids get suspended for serious violations.
Well,...<i>Kids get suspended for serious violations. </i><br /><br />Well, sorta. Kids can get suspended for serious violations but they can also get suspended because of those crazy zero tolerance rules. Pull a knife in the hallway? Expelled. Carry a knife to cut your apple? Expelled.prairie windhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602315347389233974noreply@blogger.com