tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post479341885185178794..comments2024-03-18T23:08:20.960-05:00Comments on Althouse: 40 years ago today, the Supreme Court issued its opinion in Roe v. Wade.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger171125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61731259500481891002013-01-22T22:53:50.264-06:002013-01-22T22:53:50.264-06:00I mentioned Casey above, which I'm sure Prof. ...I mentioned Casey above, which I'm sure Prof. Althouse knows well, but for others who might not, I was referencing Justice O'Connor's plurality opinion in <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-744.ZO.html" rel="nofollow">Planned Parenthood v. Casey</a>, 505 U.S. 833 (1992), which contains this internal summary:<br /><br />-------------<br /><br />(a) To protect the central right recognized by Roe v. Wade while at the same time accommodating the State's profound interest in potential life, we will employ the undue burden analysis as explained in this opinion. An undue burden exists, and therefore a provision of law is invalid, if its purpose or effect is to place a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion before the fetus attains viability.<br /><br />(b) We reject the rigid trimester framework of Roe v. Wade. To promote the State's profound interest in potential life, throughout pregnancy the State may take measures to ensure that the woman's choice is informed, and measures designed to advance this interest will not be invalidated as long as their purpose is to persuade the woman to choose childbirth over abortion. These measures must not be an undue burden on the right.<br /><br />(c) As with any medical procedure, the State may enact regulations to further the health or safety of a woman seeking an abortion. Unnecessary health regulations that have the purpose or effect of presenting a substantial obstacle to a woman seeking an abortion impose an undue burden on the right.<br /><br />(d) Our adoption of the undue burden analysis does not disturb the central holding of Roe v. Wade, and we reaffirm that holding. Regardless of whether exceptions are made for particular circumstances, a State may not prohibit any woman from making the ultimate decision to terminate her pregnancy before viability.<br /><br />(e) We also reaffirm Roe's holding that "subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother." Roe v. Wade, 410 U. S., at 164-165.<br /><br />------------<br /><br />The problem is, of course, that the loophole at the end is the exception that swallows the rule. If "mental health" is the only health showing that need be made, all that's needed is someone sympathetic with an MD. <br /><br />To their credit, many physicians who do elective abortions on pre-viable fetuses won't do them on viable fetuses, but some, famously (or infamously) will, and do.Beldarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13404583858244777905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-17504262096787853832013-01-22T22:43:06.153-06:002013-01-22T22:43:06.153-06:00(To be clear, that's my paraphrase of the prac...(To be clear, that's my paraphrase of the practical effect of Justice Blackmun's majority opinion since 1973 -- not a direct quote from the opinion, which I meant to <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0410_0179_ZO.html" rel="nofollow">link</a>.)Beldarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13404583858244777905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-53243371462390235952013-01-22T22:41:34.082-06:002013-01-22T22:41:34.082-06:00I'm very puzzled, Prof. Althouse, as to why ar...I'm very puzzled, Prof. Althouse, as to why are you perpetuating the myth that viability is the legal standard.<br /><br />I know you also know about Doe v. Bolton, 410 U.S. 179 (1973), Roe v. Wade's companion case decided the same day, which held that a single physician's opinion about the mother's emotional and psychological well-being was all the legal justification necessary to kill a viable fetus. "The mother will be sad if we don't kill the fetus" is constitutionally all that's needed, per Justice Blackman and six other then-Justices, and woe to the State of Georgia for wanting two docs to agree that "continuation of the pregnancy would endanger the life of the pregnant woman or would seriously and permanently injure her health," or that the "fetus would very likely be born with a grave, permanent, and irremediable mental or physical defect," or that the "pregnancy resulted from forcible or statutory rape," because Georgia could not even condition the availability of abortion for viable fetuses on those factors.<br /><br />Surely you teach both cases together with Casey in class, no? So why this misdirection about viability?Beldarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13404583858244777905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7583572414272031252013-01-22T18:49:12.710-06:002013-01-22T18:49:12.710-06:00A "person" is a living member of the spe...<i>A "person" is a living member of the species "homo sapiens" who has the appropriate level of consciousness, the appropriate level of independence and the appropriate level of intelligence.</i><br /><br />So we can kill the sleeping, the infants, the very old, and the stupid. Awesome.<br /><br />How about "live human being" for a definition? I kinda like that.Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56177240574927859992013-01-22T18:00:44.252-06:002013-01-22T18:00:44.252-06:00As far as I can tell, no one yet has defined "...As far as I can tell, no one yet has defined "person". So let me try: <br /><br />A "person" is a living member of the species "homo sapiens" who has the appropriate level of consciousness, the appropriate level of independence and the appropriate level of intelligence.<br /><br />Perhaps Inga, who appears to know quite alot about personhood, will tell us what these appropriate levels are.mtrobertsattorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428761048285792427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-83259016484278539802013-01-22T18:00:22.447-06:002013-01-22T18:00:22.447-06:00As far as I can tell, no one yet has defined "...As far as I can tell, no one yet has defined "person". So let me try: <br /><br />A "person" is a living member of the species "homo sapiens" who has the appropriate level of consciousness, the appropriate level of independence and the appropriate level of intelligence.<br /><br />Perhaps Inga, who appears to know quite alot about personhood, will tell us what these appropriate levels are.mtrobertsattorneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09428761048285792427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52861098563391615282013-01-22T15:45:33.286-06:002013-01-22T15:45:33.286-06:00The poll I cited just cements the fact that we are...<i>The poll I cited just cements the fact that we are a center-left country. Abortion</i><br /><br />Just an observation, but the poll's finding is that the majority of Americans think both parties are wrong on the abortion issue. :)Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4570026662325531582013-01-22T15:39:01.117-06:002013-01-22T15:39:01.117-06:00The way you can tell if someone is serious about b...The way you can tell if someone is serious about believing in the "right to privacy" is to ask them if they think drug use and prostitution should be legal.<br /><br />If they say "no", you know they aren't really pro-choice or pro-privacy. They're just pro-abortion.Revenanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374515200055384226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15381885158328192042013-01-22T15:27:30.192-06:002013-01-22T15:27:30.192-06:00Adding to the Bart Hall praise. Blackburn will be...Adding to the Bart Hall praise. Blackburn will become Chief Justice Taney in subsequent generations. Mark my words. Bircheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00045640752795693223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-25477347784392449142013-01-22T14:58:42.490-06:002013-01-22T14:58:42.490-06:00CWJ & Bart Hall/8:48 ....
I'm just a putz...CWJ & Bart Hall/8:48 ....<br /><br />I'm just a putz regarding law per se, but the part of your comment at 8:48 that got to me was ...<br /><br /><i>We addressed the issue of people as property 150 years ago, or at least I thought we did.</i><br /><br />Exactly. How is human life in any form "property?" The question is so obvious I nearly missed it. I think most of us miss it. At what point does a child become "not-property?"<br /><br />When identifiable as alive? When born? When aware? When? <br /><br />I meant to comment on this earlier, but got side tracked. Aridoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18345930150667529742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-66302872288295414612013-01-22T14:31:18.780-06:002013-01-22T14:31:18.780-06:00Bart Hall @ 8:48,
Thank you for your thoughtful c...Bart Hall @ 8:48,<br /><br />Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I had hoped that it might be incorporated into the subsequent discussion. But since it has not, I just wanted to return long enough to let you know that I appreciated it.<br /><br />P.S.: Justice Blackmun opining on the stigma of unwed motherhood is sadly amusing in hingsight in light of the social forces put in play in part by this decision.CWJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03598487232861475833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90359836764081227302013-01-22T13:51:04.982-06:002013-01-22T13:51:04.982-06:00A shout out to all the Althousians who are reading...A shout out to all the Althousians who are reading my book. Ya'll are amazing. Thanks so much.<br /><br />Any and all criticism is welcome. I'm particularly weak on medicine and social science, so any experts in those fields would be beyond awesome. Thanks!<br /><br />saintcroix1@gmail.comSaint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-56927372635885804662013-01-22T13:39:40.507-06:002013-01-22T13:39:40.507-06:00The worst abortion fact pattern I have read in a S...The worst abortion fact pattern I have read in a Supreme Court case is probably <a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=469&invol=1303" rel="nofollow">Catholic League v. Women's Health Center</a>. <br /><br />A container company went to a bankrupt pathology lab to recover their containers. Inside the containers they find 16,000 aborted babies.<br /><br />They call the police.<br /><br />The police hand the dead babies over to the District Attorney.<br /><br />The District Attorney has no idea what to do with them. He finally donates them to a church that will bury them for free.<br /><br />An abortion clinic sues to stop the donation.<br /><br />It's just a tragic, horrible farce, and the Supreme Court doesn't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole.Saint Croixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17876368500159112781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11763451359851100382013-01-22T13:04:14.219-06:002013-01-22T13:04:14.219-06:00Scott M:
I was not criticizing you. I only inten...Scott M:<br /><br />I was not criticizing you. I only intended to expand on the principle you were describing: risk moderates behavior. This is why I state, repeatedly, dissociation of risk causes corruption. Some people are under the impression that the cases of corruption are constrained to material wealth (e.g. money). They are wrong.n.nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252447117532342957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44732158192376495662013-01-22T12:58:19.790-06:002013-01-22T12:58:19.790-06:00If the mother or father forsakes responsibility fo...<i>If the mother or father forsakes responsibility for the care of their child, then she or he should not be eligible for entitlements or welfare from the state.</i><br /><br />Don't get me wrong, n.n., I'm an illegal after the first trimester guy. Frankly, I think the genie is out of the bottle on abortion and it will never be made wholly illegal, but I can certainly see much stronger restrictions on it than we currently have.<br /><br />My point is that, under the current legal regime, if a woman can flutter back and forth between wanting and not wanting, the man should be given as much consideration along the same lines as possible.<br /><br />I agree with what someone said upthread. If the prevailing wisdom was that a man would not be bound by the simple fact of a pregnancy (assuming it's provably his), young women might undergo a bit of a sea change in their attitudes toward bumping uglies.Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02459388007426664813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9922072990834355062013-01-22T12:58:05.587-06:002013-01-22T12:58:05.587-06:00There is no mystery. A human life develops from co...There is no mystery. A human life develops from conception to death. The former which may be qualified as biological or conscious. Our national charter recognizes our unalienable right (endowed by our Creator) to Life from creation.<br /><br />Perhaps this is why there is an effort to sabotage this nation, through fiscal profligacy and generational genocide. The character of this nation is irreconcilable with men and women who dream of material, physical, and ego instant (or immediate) gratification.<br /><br />Elective abortion is the unjustified, premeditated murder of a human life during its early development. When it has no Arms to prevent and no voice to protest its torture and premature termination.<br /><br />Women have the unique responsibility of caring for a human life, at its most vulnerable, from conception to birth. The father has the unique responsibility of caring for the mother and their unborn child.n.nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252447117532342957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77085490177977300452013-01-22T12:54:40.990-06:002013-01-22T12:54:40.990-06:00Ann says:
To me, drawing the line at viability ma...Ann says:<br /><br />To me, drawing the line at viability makes no sense at all . . .<br /><br />That is the only part of the decision that makes any sense at all, if you believe the fetus has any rights worthy of mention. BarrySanders20https://www.blogger.com/profile/05746075364579483752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21336967146657229232013-01-22T12:53:25.430-06:002013-01-22T12:53:25.430-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.n.nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252447117532342957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28767059383189056222013-01-22T12:47:47.825-06:002013-01-22T12:47:47.825-06:00Scott M:
If the mother or father forsakes respons...Scott M:<br /><br />If the mother or father forsakes responsibility for the care of their child, then she or he should not be eligible for entitlements or welfare from the state. After demonstrating willful disregard for the life and welfare of their voluntarily conceived child, the child should be removed from the hostile environment and become a ward of the state, preferably adopted by a couple who have ordered their priorities correctly. The parents should have their earnings garnished to support the early development of their child.<br /><br />It is dissociation of risk which causes corruption. It is dreams of instant (or immediate) material, physical, and ego gratification which motivates its progress.n.nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252447117532342957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37657353706576383512013-01-22T12:46:45.307-06:002013-01-22T12:46:45.307-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.n.nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252447117532342957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33261256231993169212013-01-22T12:41:39.997-06:002013-01-22T12:41:39.997-06:00Do you really want the idea that a man can coerce ...<i>Do you really want the idea that a man can coerce a woman to have an abortion?</i><br /><br />No. If the right to abort is based on a right of privacy owned by the woman, the man should have the same right to privacy. Privacy from having his life upended suddenly.<br /><br />If the woman can end an unwanted pregnancy, the man should have the same choice as much as the law will allow, biology aside. In this, I'm referring, of course, to the financial burden.<br /><br />If a woman chooses to abort, she can do so with or without consent of the man. There's no workable system that I can see in which a man can force a woman to carry to term. On the other hand, if the woman chooses to carry to term and the man does NOT want to be a father, the state should recognize his right to privacy by placing 100% of the burden of raising that child on the head of the sole person in the world that can make the choice to abort or keep.<br />Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02459388007426664813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-13641818886735400662013-01-22T12:41:05.732-06:002013-01-22T12:41:05.732-06:00The Constitution does not stand independent of The...The Constitution does not stand independent of The Declaration of Independence. If the justices required guidance to direct their decision, they should have consulted our national charter.<br /><br /><i>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are <b>created</b> equal, that they are <b>endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights</b>, that among these are <b>Life</b>, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.</i><br /><br />The Fourteenth Amendment only permits termination of a human life with cause and after due process. It recognizes that a life may terminated prematurely in cases of extreme irreconcilable differences, for example following the commission of murder. Not only is that criteria not met in the case of elective abortion, but a human life from conception to birth is presumed incapable of committing involuntary exploitation and is therefore innocent. Satisfying a mother's desire to preserve wealth and welfare does not justify premeditated murder.<br /><br />The normalization of elective abortion is one of the principal causes of progressive corruption and dysfunction in our society. It has done even more than the "original compromise" (i.e. slavery) to devalue human life throughout its development, from conception to death.n.nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04252447117532342957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-35995964816731454802013-01-22T12:35:25.346-06:002013-01-22T12:35:25.346-06:00Thanks Ann, I just ordered the book you mentioned,...Thanks Ann, I just ordered the book you mentioned, "When Abortion Was a Crime" through your Amazon portal. Perhaps it should be required reading for a high school sex ed course along with the abstinence recommendation and various other means of birth control.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64687786223506725982013-01-22T12:18:17.750-06:002013-01-22T12:18:17.750-06:00garage mahal said...
The poll I cited just cement...garage mahal said...<br /><br /><i>The poll I cited just cements the fact that we are a center-left country. <br /><br />Abortion<br />Contraception<br />Climate<br />Immigration<br />Taxation<br />Medicare/Social Security<br />Gun Control<br /><br />Does the right have public opinion with them on issues anymore?</i><br /><br />Funny how that didn't change until after the "election".<br /><br />Just like I've seen more Ozero bumper stickers since 11/7 than I ever did before.edutcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15033144261502435196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-67993614814627106072013-01-22T12:17:04.647-06:002013-01-22T12:17:04.647-06:00mccullough said...
LBJ died 40 years ago today.
1...mccullough said...<br />LBJ died 40 years ago today.<br /><br />1/22/13, 12:04 PM<br /><br />Too bad he didn't die ten years earlier. Just think what an alternative history without the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the welfare state might have been like.<br /><br />Could one conceive of a 1960 elected President Nixon botching a Bay of Pigs which resulted in the Cuban Missile crises which almost got the country nuked? Or getting in to Vietnam half assed if at all? <br />The Civil Rights Act I could see happening under Nixon if only for cynical political gain. The welfare state though would have stayed with social security and some limited form of medicare. Nixon wasn't that much of a conservative on social issues.cubanbobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03746305669005611456noreply@blogger.com