tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post4293500232931587281..comments2024-03-29T04:47:37.037-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Oppose Wisconsin Checkpoints."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15120454537344960252012-01-06T15:19:55.387-06:002012-01-06T15:19:55.387-06:00Without taking the appropriate actions you could w...Without taking the appropriate actions you could worsen your situation.<br /><a href="http://www.ramjilaw.com" rel="nofollow">Houston Personal Injury Lawyer</a>Socialfuelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03827771052486883688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-14410112558914986542009-01-30T05:53:00.000-06:002009-01-30T05:53:00.000-06:00John Ann Arbor, I don't understand what your point...John Ann Arbor, <BR/><BR/>I don't understand what your point is then. You are against checkpoints too. Great. You are against drunk driving too, great.<BR/><BR/>It seems you are angry that people are irresponsible and you want to control them. I understand your first instincts, but the problem is you have to control EVERYBODY in order to control those who are irresponsible and even then, those people are somehow able to keep acting irresponsibly. Do you know how many fatalities are caused by people who have already had their licenses suspended and are not allowed to drive at all?<BR/><BR/>And you then accuse others of not caring because they don't want to take what they consider extreme measures for a diminishing return.<BR/><BR/>This is an emotional argument that can be used to restrict every freedom you posses, but you want to indulge yourself to feel more "caring" while you vote in a police nanny state.<BR/><BR/>"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. LewisFrancohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09497474181923574185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-20476029295195288182009-01-30T05:05:00.000-06:002009-01-30T05:05:00.000-06:00You're not refuting my argument. All you're saying...<I>You're not refuting my argument. All you're saying is you couldn't care less if 10,000 people die..</I><BR/><BR/>Check your caring faculty. Did you know that 10,000 Americans die every day, with no particular disasters or unusual circumstances?<BR/><BR/>Have you spent today caring about it? Did you spend yesterday caring about it?<BR/><BR/>If not, for the world it's 100,000 deaths a day every day. Has that got you caring yet?<BR/><BR/>Or does the large population in fact kick in for you on causes that have no advantage for your self image.<BR/><BR/>Maybe mathematicians grow up faster than other people, I don't know.rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-42964916512198051202009-01-30T00:41:00.000-06:002009-01-30T00:41:00.000-06:00"There were 13,470 alcohol-related traffic deaths ..."There were 13,470 alcohol-related traffic deaths in 2006. That's "really unlikely"?"<BR/><BR/>Well, yeah. Do the math. You tell me what the ratio is. Also, you might look a little harder into the "alcohol-related" part. How do you suppose they determine that? If one driver has a beer, and another driver blows a red light and hits the first guy, that has just become a alcohol-related accident. Check your stats and where they come from.jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01892213227811281098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11671114098110710982009-01-30T00:36:00.000-06:002009-01-30T00:36:00.000-06:00"All you're saying is you couldn't care less if 10..."All you're saying is you couldn't care less if 10,000 people die each year because people think it's OK to drink and drive. Hey, it probably won't affect you, right? So those families of the dead can just fuck off then, right?"<BR/><BR/>This is usually what happens. Someone with a very shallow understanding of the argument brings up the deaths each year.<BR/><BR/>On a dui check point, how many cops are tied up on it? How many dui arrests are made. How many other drivers are stopped. How many other violations (no dl, expired regestration etc)<BR/>The vast majority run for 3-4 hours and have around a 1% dui arrest ratio. Following up on the deaths caused by drunk drivers, how drunk are the drivers that cause the accident? <BR/><BR/>If you bother to check the actual facts your find that dui checkpoints are not anywhere near efficient in catching drunk drivers, and that the drunks that cause the vast majority of wrecks and injuries are the professional drinkers. Not the guy that is .08. Of course that is today. MADD wants to lower that number again. <BR/>However it is much easier to just argue "you just want to drink and drive" and "you dont care about the people killed" and "you tell that to someone who knew someone who was killed.jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01892213227811281098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36302662936711387002009-01-29T20:07:00.000-06:002009-01-29T20:07:00.000-06:00You're not refuting my argument. All you're sayin...You're not refuting my argument. All you're saying is you couldn't care less if 10,000 people die each year because people think it's OK to drink and drive. Hey, it probably won't affect you, right? So those families of the dead can just fuck off then, right?JohnAnnArborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440105287714668965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-26242446352672689052009-01-29T19:33:00.000-06:002009-01-29T19:33:00.000-06:00You'll die in a traffic accident about once every ...You'll die in a traffic accident about once every 10,000 years. That's why you don't hesitate to drive out for pizza. You ignore that level of risk.<BR/><BR/>That's 40,000 deaths in a 300 million population.<BR/><BR/>Whoa! Has it suddenly become risky? No. It's just a huge population.<BR/><BR/>What you need to know isn't the 40,000 but the one in 10,000 years, because it's personal level not continent level risk that affects you, and affects everybody else too, one at a time.<BR/><BR/>Anybody who doesn't divide by population is talking through his hat.rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85139627318523737552009-01-29T18:46:00.000-06:002009-01-29T18:46:00.000-06:00There were 13,470 alcohol-related traffic deaths i...<A HREF="http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/810920.PDF" REL="nofollow">There were 13,470 alcohol-related traffic deaths in 2006.</A> That's "really unlikely"?<BR/><BR/>No problem, right, rhhardin? I mean, it's not like you knew any of them, right? So there's no point in trying to reduce that number, right? None at all! <BR/><BR/>Hey, there are very few food-contamination deaths each year. Clearly all those laws about food safety are unneeded, right? Let me know when there are over ten thousand dying each year from easily preventable contaminants in food. Then let's think about doing something!JohnAnnArborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440105287714668965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-40059843850582293272009-01-29T18:36:00.000-06:002009-01-29T18:36:00.000-06:00There's a thing called the large population effect...There's a thing called the large population effect.<BR/><BR/>It says that in a large enough population, even very unlikely things happen a lot.<BR/><BR/>But personal risk does not depend on the size of the population. You're foolish to worry about dying in a tornado if you're the only person in the world. The odds are the same if you're not the only person in the world, but you wouldn't know it from the news.<BR/><BR/>The news works by bringing every oddball disaster in the whole population of the planet into your backyard for your consideration.<BR/><BR/>Anti drunk driving groups use that fallacy to get their political power.<BR/><BR/>Your odds of dying in a traffic accident while going out for pizza are the same with or without drunk drivers.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunate things happen because there is a huge population, not because they're worth worrying about. Nobody hesitates a second in deciding to go out for pizza.<BR/><BR/>Rule: if somebody doesn't divide by the population size for you, they're talking through their hats.rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89881520667196796302009-01-29T18:35:00.000-06:002009-01-29T18:35:00.000-06:00Don't use checkpoints. Conduct random safety insp...Don't use checkpoints. Conduct random safety inspections and ticket for vehicle, registration, or driving infractions. If someone acts drunk then have them breath in the tube. Safety inspections sound nice and proactive. Checkpoints sound so harsh. Wisconsin is a nice friendly state.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11415427249898754955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-8068045418656708632009-01-29T18:29:00.000-06:002009-01-29T18:29:00.000-06:00Hee hee. It's all funny until your kid is just a r...<I>Hee hee. It's all funny until your kid is just a red stain on the road, isn't it?</I><BR/><BR/>It's funny until somebody gets their eye poked out. Then it's still funny, just not around that person.rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15792915510034927812009-01-29T17:35:00.000-06:002009-01-29T17:35:00.000-06:00The American puritans, moral pecksniffs all, are r...The American puritans, moral pecksniffs all, are resurgent for the time being. Their influence will whither in the coming economic winter, I suspect.<BR/><BR/>Supposedly, talking on a cellphone <I>even hands-free</I> is "as bad as driving drunk", which only suggests that driving drunk ain't as bad as the schoolmarms suggest, at least not for 0.08 or so.KCFleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00124201866124646626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70819747608077142022009-01-29T17:00:00.000-06:002009-01-29T17:00:00.000-06:00The unusual cases of 0.33 (near death from alcohol...The unusual cases of 0.33 (near death from alcohol poisoning) drunks/alcoholics) are the Blind Drunks rear ending Police cruisers with blue light going, parked in the emergency lane. The MADD gals are rightfully mad if Judges revolving door them. The DUI industry also touches the sober 2 glasses of wine with dinner types, when they lower the limits to catch more drivers. The first offender treatment is available under 0.15 readings for a high price. Therafter, everyone is at great risk of jail time without a designated driver aboard. Then in the case of Wisconsin Snowmobilers you can throw in Animal Torture and really Hamg Em High.traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36997885570213079802009-01-29T16:48:00.000-06:002009-01-29T16:48:00.000-06:00If the police can't tell if you are drunk by your ...<I>If the police can't tell if you are drunk by your driving behavior are you a menace on the road?</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps; maybe you're staying in your lane just fine. Then you miss a stop sign CRUNCH. Or your reactions are dulled when the student steps into the crosswalk. Etc. Your reactions are slowed long before you become a doddering drunk.<BR/><BR/><I>Why aren't you advocating a policeman standing at the exit of every pub and tavern giving breathalyzer tests when drivers are leaving? How many people will be killed by drunk drivers in between the bar and the first checkpoint?</I><BR/><BR/>I've never stated my feeling on checkpoints. I have never encountered one, and my first reaction is that they should be used sparingly, if ever. Perhaps if a particular drag is known for drunks who pile out of bars on weekends, but not randomly.<BR/><BR/>But "buzzed" driving is drunk driving. It's bad enough we have SOBER drivers who have little grasp of major driving laws. We don't need to have people with reduced reaction times in charge of 2-ton moving machines.<BR/><BR/><I>``If it weren't for the drunks, a lot of them wouldn't be mothers.''</I><BR/><BR/>Hee hee. It's all funny until your kid is just a red stain on the road, isn't it?JohnAnnArborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440105287714668965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3587196529254018832009-01-29T16:03:00.000-06:002009-01-29T16:03:00.000-06:00``If it weren't for the drunks, a lot of them woul...``If it weren't for the drunks, a lot of them wouldn't be mothers.''rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15797773470255266232009-01-29T15:56:00.000-06:002009-01-29T15:56:00.000-06:00John Ann Arbor,Er, you missed my point. If the pol...John Ann Arbor,<BR/><BR/>Er, you missed my point. If the police can't tell if you are drunk by your driving behavior are you a menace on the road?<BR/><BR/>Why aren't you advocating a policeman standing at the exit of every pub and tavern giving breathalyzer tests when drivers are leaving? How many people will be killed by drunk drivers in between the bar and the first checkpoint? <BR/><BR/>The issue isn't drunk driving, it is how far do we allow the State to interfere with innocent people's lives to enforce these laws.Francohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09497474181923574185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-2301674827078747092009-01-29T15:47:00.000-06:002009-01-29T15:47:00.000-06:00MADD is a classic example of an organization who, ...MADD is a classic example of an organization who, having accomplished their mission, has now run amok.<BR/><BR/>Kind of like that planet eating machine on ST:TOS.Original Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714345479248980398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18198617280543237092009-01-29T15:44:00.000-06:002009-01-29T15:44:00.000-06:00That was supposed to be DAMM( Drunks Against Mad M...That was supposed to be DAMM( Drunks Against Mad Mothers). Some people can tell em, and some people can't.traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46520110899783912402009-01-29T15:32:00.000-06:002009-01-29T15:32:00.000-06:00This sounds like the the new group opposing MADD (...This sounds like the the new group opposing MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) called DAMM ( Drivers Against Mad Mothers).The old pre MADD days allowed under 0.1readings to walk. But these days the MADD pressure has re- set that line to 0.05. and also much higher First Offense penalties. Drinking and driving is almost illegal these days. The Sheriffs and State Patrol in GA do liscense and evidence of insurance road blocks all of the time, but mostly on late Friday and Saturday nights. The losers are those who turn and run, as in the show COPS. It seems that the States and the Counties OWN the roads and the drivers uses thereof is permissive only. Badger them good Governor.traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70870519788605046282009-01-29T14:56:00.000-06:002009-01-29T14:56:00.000-06:00Someone slightly over these very conservative limi...<I>Someone slightly over these very conservative limits and driving the speed limits isn't going to kill anyone,</I><BR/><BR/>Sure, and someone who's drinking is a GREAT judge of their ability to drive. Sure. Let's go with that standard.JohnAnnArborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440105287714668965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85362435082652455402009-01-29T14:42:00.000-06:002009-01-29T14:42:00.000-06:00Checkpoints add to a police state. How many non-dr...Checkpoints add to a police state. How many non-drunk drivers are stopped to find one drunk driver?<BR/><BR/>We all get inconvenienced because the police haven't been able to discern someone weaving down the road? Perhaps not because the legal levels are set so low they can't pick out a legally drunk driver from a straight driver, what does that tell ya? <BR/><BR/>Another thing - it is simply another measure to increase revenue and assert power, like red light cameras, seat belt laws. I hate this stuff because it turns people into sheep. What about all those collateral issues one has to comply with at a checkpoint? Your papers, please! <BR/><BR/>There is too much loss of freedom and too much power going to police and law enforcement.<BR/><BR/>The vast majority of drunk driving deaths and accidents are from those who are roaring drunk and reckless. You don't need checkpoints to find these people.<BR/><BR/>Someone slightly over these very conservative limits and driving the speed limits isn't going to kill anyone, so they aren't "saving lives" when they catch this particular type.Francohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09497474181923574185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24881671803444733872009-01-29T14:31:00.000-06:002009-01-29T14:31:00.000-06:00Nor does thousands of people dying from a single r...Nor does thousands of people dying from a single reason. But it does indicate a problem to most normal people. Salmonella in peanut butter has killed 9 or so in the last month, and people think that's a problem, right?JohnAnnArborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440105287714668965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49542647716804490642009-01-29T14:26:00.000-06:002009-01-29T14:26:00.000-06:00JAA -Why should the opinions of those people be gi...JAA -<BR/><BR/>Why should the opinions of those people be given any special consideration?<BR/><BR/>Personal tragedy does not necessarily impart wisdom.Sofa Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07659133819240484346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29842815040100652452009-01-29T13:44:00.000-06:002009-01-29T13:44:00.000-06:00rhhardin, try bringing that up to the family of on...rhhardin, try bringing that up to the family of one of the tens of thousands killed by drunk drivers. I'm sure they'll agree that it's not a big problem.JohnAnnArborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440105287714668965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88637265847967995102009-01-29T12:41:00.000-06:002009-01-29T12:41:00.000-06:00If you want the real policy difficulty, it's that ...If you want the real policy difficulty, it's that drunk driving isn't particularly dangerous in the first place.<BR/><BR/>See almost anything by sociologist Joseph R. Gusfield, starting with <A HREF="http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=rsQcR1EwvG4C&dq=gusfield+the.culture.of.public.problems&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=OWB6D0gIoJ&sig=WrtWkCHZegxc57q8CUKveAOS68w&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result" REL="nofollow">The Culture of Public Problems : Drinking-Driving and the Symbolic Order</A>.<BR/><BR/>He was intrigued how drunk driving turned from a personal moral failing, a matter between you and your clergy more or less, to a public problem, and one owned politically by MADD.<BR/><BR/>Later books generalize the rhetorical steps in defining a new public problem and then taking ownership of it, as a route to political power.<BR/><BR/> Say <A HREF="http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=qzn9MUzkM98C&dq=gusfield+contested.meanings&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=YfoLvSS6Zu&sig=Pw8aCw9ouHPeTfvjUzVHh34bqAk&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result" REL="nofollow">Contested Meanings</A>.rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.com