tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post3824708590717124651..comments2024-03-29T05:01:52.320-05:00Comments on Althouse: "The president’s decisions are more aggressive and incur more risk than I was originally prepared to accept."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-75019085504527599762011-06-24T13:41:58.503-05:002011-06-24T13:41:58.503-05:00Truman was an elected National Guard officer durin...Truman was an elected National Guard officer during WWI, which was the practice at the time. However, I am pretty sure he was not a Colonel. He was the last president, that I know of who did not have a college degree. He is the first president that I remember. I saw him in the news-reels at the movies.ken in txhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345764031059905578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-20798056449722675302011-06-24T11:35:43.334-05:002011-06-24T11:35:43.334-05:00Look for the backbone of the military; four and fi...Look for the backbone of the military; four and five stripers to hit the exits in disgust, as they are doing en mass in the UK.BJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447134335568803085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34714814698251353112011-06-24T09:04:04.579-05:002011-06-24T09:04:04.579-05:00What you say is reasonable, but you should add one...<i>What you say is reasonable, but you should add one important point. If they are going to stay in their offices and support the plan, then they should shut up about it. These comments do nothing but undermine their commander in chief's decision, and they know it.<br /><br />So now I know that I'm in a war zone with Afghans pointing guns at me, and I know that the highest levels of leadership in the military have told the president that his plans are not the best.</i><br /><br />At the levels of Petraeus and Mullen, their audience isn't just the troops and Congress, it's the public, the enemy, their potential new bosses, and more importantly Obama himself. This is how you manage your boss; by letting him know that the military and the intelligence branches won't take the heat if this goes badly (and if they hadn't put it out in public, any claim later would have just looked like CYA) without quitting (which would have put him directly on point) they've actually given him a path out. He can climb down off this later, because they all can claim "we always had a range of options on the table and once the situation changed we acted accordingly". A protest resignation makes you feel better, but it also means you can't manage the situation anymore and makes it nearly impossible for the boss to reverse course w/o losing a massive amount of face.Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12624154481653216961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36189351405883032702011-06-23T22:24:09.158-05:002011-06-23T22:24:09.158-05:00At the time, the liberal criticism of Rhee in Kore...At the time, the liberal criticism of Rhee in Korea and Chiang on Taiwan was that they were corrupt and fascist leaders. Lippimann and other pundits felt that such despots did not deserve American support. You can fairly argue that these men were nothing special, but history has shown that they were better than the alternative.....Karzai is in the process of being discredited, and, for sure, he is no bucket of ice cream. However, he does not believe in throwing acid into the faces of women teachers. For all his manifest flaws, he is better than the Taliban.....I don't know whether Afghanistan is worth another American death, but I'm sure that there are many women there who would think so.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07837540030934495651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-372749185463881802011-06-23T22:21:29.958-05:002011-06-23T22:21:29.958-05:00William said...
No AQ or Taliban will ever give up...<i> William said...<br />No AQ or Taliban will ever give up because of Obama's relentless determination.</i><br /><br /><br />LOL, let there not be a JFK tag, evah:<b>Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty.<br /></b>The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24313670122373185232011-06-23T22:15:39.646-05:002011-06-23T22:15:39.646-05:00It's a curious choice of words to say the Pres...It's a curious choice of words to say the President's decisions are aggressive when they are exactly the opposite. A glorious charge to the rear......In his campaign, Obama ran on the platform that Afghanistan was the crucial war, and Iraq was the distraction. He seems to be backing off that particular insight.....I'm confused about Libya and Afghanistan, and so are most people. Unfortunately that includes Obama, and it shows. He doesn't have to actually have righteous principles, but it would help if he could hum a few bars. No AQ or Taliban will ever give up because of Obama's relentless determination.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07837540030934495651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-71065954813289685972011-06-23T21:49:08.208-05:002011-06-23T21:49:08.208-05:00The Drill SGT said...
edutcher said...It was neve...The Drill SGT said...<br /><br />edutcher said...<i><b>It was never that well-known, but MacArthur would submit his battle plans to Truman who would turn them over to the UN, knowing that the Russians would see them and warn their pals, the Norks and the Red Chinese.<br /><br />One reason Inchon worked is that MacArthur didn't tell Truman about it.</b><br /><br />The second point is clearly not accurate. MacArthur had to get Truman's ok along with the JCS before he could get the assets for Incheon. The simple proof is the Aug 23, 1950 decision brief conducted by MacArthur in Tokyo for the Army Chief, the Navy Chief and the USAF Deputy Chief.<br /><br />On the first point, I think that is false as well. Former Colonel Truman knew the Soviets were the enemy. He'd already dispatched US troops to fight Greek communists in 47 as well as committed to feeding Berlin. The US didnt give squat to the UN in terms of plans...</i><br /><br />Have to disagree, sir. As I understand it, Truman was obliged, as it was a UN war, to inform the UN of its battlefield commander's plans. Regarding Inchon, you appear to be correct, but I recall some element of the story that MacArthur withheld some point that was pivotal to its success. If I can dig it up, I'll pass it along.<br /><br />As to the first point, I've heard it enough times - beginning with the head of my history department in school (and someone whose opinion I trust) - to feel secure on that point.<br /><br />I understand where you're coming from and understand how command structure works. Not debating that, merely saying that this UN war was a strange hybrid. As I say, the "MacArthur was a nut" line is a standard Lefty dodge. This was a time when what the Left calls the Red Scare was no scare, but a very real threat.edutcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15033144261502435196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90938855544378824122011-06-23T21:33:28.950-05:002011-06-23T21:33:28.950-05:00If things are going our way, as the president clai...If things are going our way, as the president claims is the rationale for the draw-down, then isn't that all the more reason to keep maximum pressure on the enemy?<br /><br />This decision is right out of LBJ's playbook. Never do enough to win, just do enough to get people killed for no reason. Professor, perhaps you can add an "Obama is like LBJ" tag?Big Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831645119853118904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4782113971854190992011-06-23T21:16:06.883-05:002011-06-23T21:16:06.883-05:00DBP,
What you say is reasonable, but you should a...DBP,<br /><br />What you say is reasonable, but you should add one important point. If they are going to stay in their offices and support the plan, then they should shut up about it. These comments do nothing but undermine their commander in chief's decision, and they know it.<br /><br />So now I know that I'm in a war zone with Afghans pointing guns at me, and I know that the highest levels of leadership in the military have told the president that his plans are not the best. <br /><br />Thanks, it makes me feel so good. <br /><br />So, as we begin discussing how to implement this new plan, I know that it's not a good one already. Should I emulate my leaders by telling my Marines that the plan is dumb but we're going to do it anyway? <br /><br />You know what happens if you tell the squad leader that? He figures out a way to make sure no one gets hurt at the cost of accomplishing the mission. That is, if you tell him, "Take that machine gun nest" and by the way no one thinks it's important, then he will do a half-hearted effort to make a show of looking like he made a reasonable attempt to take the machine gun nest.<br /><br />If you set out to take Vienna, take Vienna. Don't tell people that Vienna is too hard but we're going to try anyway.Skylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10574746114813075566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18551731290705682912011-06-23T21:13:33.377-05:002011-06-23T21:13:33.377-05:00edutcher said...It was never that well-known, but ...<i>edutcher said...It was never that well-known, but MacArthur would submit his battle plans to Truman who would turn them over to the UN, knowing that the Russians would see them and warn their pals, the Norks and the Red Chinese.<br /><br />One reason Inchon worked is that MacArthur didn't tell Truman about it.</i><br /><br />The second point is clearly not accurate. MacArthur had to get Truman's ok along with the JCS before he could get the assets for Incheon. The simple proof is the Aug 23, 1950 decision brief conducted by MacArthur in Tokyo for the Army Chief, the Navy Chief and the USAF Deputy Chief.<br /><br />On the first point, I think that is false as well. Former Colonel Truman knew the Soviets were the enemy. He'd already dispatched US troops to fight Greek communists in 47 as well as committed to feeding Berlin. The US didnt give squat to the UN in terms of plans...The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46542300931091020892011-06-23T21:02:19.408-05:002011-06-23T21:02:19.408-05:00I think that certainly at the level I served, (Sta...I think that certainly at the level I served, (Staff Sargent USMC)what The Drill SGT and others have said is true.<br /><br />At the level where you have four stars, things are a bit different. A general officer needs a middle ground between pretending to agree with foolishness and resigning. Otherwise, we end up with with both stupidity AND only worthless generals (the ones who don't resign out of either stupidity or higher concern for career than country). That middle ground includes making it clear that the path taken is not what was advised AND that as long as you wear the uniform, lawful orders will be obeyed.dbphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00457585811847604584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19892440855753188382011-06-23T20:53:50.694-05:002011-06-23T20:53:50.694-05:00Roger J. said...
The two presidents who have best...Roger J. said...<br /><br /><i>The two presidents who have best understood their roles of commander in chief are Abraham Lincoln who stacked up a lot of generals until he found Grant and Sherman, and Harry Truman who fired the meglomanical Douglas MacArthur. That is civilian control of the military.</i><br /><br />The "MacArthur was a megalomaniac" is pure Lefty propaganda. To be sure, Truman was within his rights firing MacArthur for insubordination, but MacArthur's real crime in the eyes of the Lefties was wanting to beat the Communists.<br /><br />It was never that well-known, but MacArthur would submit his battle plans to Truman who would turn them over to the UN, knowing that the Russians would see them and warn their pals, the Norks and the Red Chinese.<br /><br />One reason Inchon worked is that MacArthur didn't tell Truman about it.edutcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15033144261502435196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49410383446154829672011-06-23T20:47:15.267-05:002011-06-23T20:47:15.267-05:00Generals are politicans...the're not gonna get...Generals are politicans...the're not gonna get shot so why not pad the nestserfer1962https://www.blogger.com/profile/02789954990131623543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57210555123533207922011-06-23T19:56:30.047-05:002011-06-23T19:56:30.047-05:00another nuance that civilians may not grasp.
Le...another nuance that civilians may not grasp. <br /><br />Let's say you get an order that you think is dumber that $h_t, and you are in combat. Perhaps it doesn't rise to the level of deadly stupidity so you don't feel you need to ask to be relieved and you have pushed back in private to the boss...<br /><br />You not only, do everything you can to make the course of action work, what you don't do is let your subordinates think that it comes from the boss and it's dumber that $h-t. You make sure they know it has your full support. <br /><br />such are the tenets of combat leadership....unity of command...The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32211185358181815462011-06-23T19:51:22.056-05:002011-06-23T19:51:22.056-05:00What if the President said something like this..
...What if the President said something like this..<br /><br />"I heard all the arguments, and now I need to make a decision. We're going to move forward doing "X". Granted the timetable may be more aggressive than you wanted, but does anyone think this will be a catastrophic mistake?" <br /><br />No one does, whereupon the President says, "Look, if you want to talk about how my timetable is more aggressive than yours, I have no problem with that. We have different roles here, and I appreciate yours as long as you understand that my role goes beyond military considerations."Pennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094488084214911115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3829526154453441462011-06-23T19:28:48.131-05:002011-06-23T19:28:48.131-05:00I agree with the Drill Sgt.
This public disagre...I agree with the Drill Sgt. <br /><br />This public disagreement is unprofessional. If they are going to disagree, they should resign. It serves no one's interests to have general and flag officers who are not supporters of the plan.<br /><br />I have no respect for an officer who will, when choosing between what he believes is right and what he must do for his career, decides to protect his career.<br /><br />There are too many Marines and Soldiers that have paid a much more horrible price for me to give a hoot about the careers of men who already have four stars.<br /><br />I hope the characterization shown here is in error because I would hate to think that my military leaders are such moral cowards.Skylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10574746114813075566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36715298024823399792011-06-23T19:17:12.055-05:002011-06-23T19:17:12.055-05:00If the House asks for the guy's judgment, he s...If the House asks for the guy's judgment, he should give it, military guy or not.<br /><br />Otherwise there's no expert opinion available to the legislature on which to decide about funding for example.rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22010995809274313512011-06-23T18:33:00.480-05:002011-06-23T18:33:00.480-05:00Peter said:
He gave an order. I said yes sir.
Ex...Peter said:<br /><br /><i>He gave an order. I said yes sir.</i><br /><br />ExactlyPhil 314https://www.blogger.com/profile/04133300763922742206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77121217686246923432011-06-23T18:12:47.865-05:002011-06-23T18:12:47.865-05:00edutcher,
My guess would be that obama was just r...edutcher,<br /><br />My guess would be that obama was just reading what someone had wrote for him. obama doesn't have a fucking clue.AllenShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08848966772462502893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55361002433172770602011-06-23T18:08:59.046-05:002011-06-23T18:08:59.046-05:00dbp said...
I think it is fine to "support&q...<i> dbp said...<br /> I think it is fine to "support" it less than wholeheartedly. It makes sense to not be so against it that the president is forced to fire you since resigning always looks better than being fired.</i><br /><br />dbp, I doubt that your served as an officer...<br /><br />The approach you advocate is naked insubordination.<br /><br />In the military, one should always speak clearly and bluntly to the boss during the planning stages if opinions are solicted, to do less is failing your duty, but once the decision has been made then the course of action (COA), then your only duty is to salute and make that COA succeed or ask to be relieved...The Drill SGThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16394309533144027391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65103646699396375182011-06-23T18:07:42.364-05:002011-06-23T18:07:42.364-05:00The two presidents who have best understood their ...The two presidents who have best understood their roles of commander in chief are Abraham Lincoln who stacked up a lot of generals until he found Grant and Sherman, and Harry Truman who fired the meglomanical Douglas MacArthur. That is civilian control of the military.Roger J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12639676792043324100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-59870532275741626622011-06-23T18:01:35.310-05:002011-06-23T18:01:35.310-05:00And just so we all realize how "involved"...And just so we all realize how "involved" Little Zero is when it comes to our troops, consider the fact that <a href="http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/23/obama-flubs-on-medal-of-honor-recipient/" rel="nofollow">he can't tell the dead ones from the lives ones</a>.edutcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15033144261502435196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68087876610174348752011-06-23T18:01:15.600-05:002011-06-23T18:01:15.600-05:00The overarching issue is civilian control of the m...The overarching issue is civilian control of the military. PeriodRoger J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12639676792043324100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55458925473682294452011-06-23T18:01:12.897-05:002011-06-23T18:01:12.897-05:00Sorry, I messed up the give-and-take by noticing a...Sorry, I messed up the give-and-take by noticing a spelling error just after making my first comment...dbphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00457585811847604584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41455386083497078872011-06-23T18:00:52.306-05:002011-06-23T18:00:52.306-05:00Translation of that:
He gave an order. I said ye...Translation of that:<br /><br />He gave an order. I said yes sir.Peter V. Bellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04209902525167395224noreply@blogger.com