tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post2839182082108532900..comments2024-03-28T18:07:30.515-05:00Comments on Althouse: "Do you believe children should be charged with hate crimes?"Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger110125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-59734855173153827602011-04-05T09:12:19.356-05:002011-04-05T09:12:19.356-05:00I don't like the concept of hate crimes laws f...I don't like the concept of hate crimes laws for this reason: It enshrines the concept of "This is wrong because of who the victim is". That implies that the same act on someone else isn't the same sort of crime.<br /><br />Bull.<br /><br />There is one overriding characteristic of everyone that should apply: Citizen. If you are a part of society, then an assault is an assault, whether it's because the assailant was drunk and lashed out, or didn't like your race/religion/gender/whatever and lashed out. Assault is assault, and making the categorizations of assualt class/race/belief based instead of severity based is going down the wrong road.<br /><br />It used to be that the whole concept of America was to <i>erase</i> legal distinctions between people so that everyone was equal under the law. In the name of supposedly doing good, the opposite is happening.Tiborehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07360541843865827271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78244487217038531002011-04-05T06:24:40.590-05:002011-04-05T06:24:40.590-05:00The hate crime charge is punishment for not fallin...The hate crime charge is punishment for not falling into PC step, and so is an ordinary part of a child's political education.<br /><br />Do not question the left.rhhardinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06901742898653890646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87468696782160775162011-04-05T04:37:58.523-05:002011-04-05T04:37:58.523-05:00I agree with Chase. I don't believe there sho...I agree with Chase. I don't believe there should even be hate crimes. If there is a crime, then make the penalty fit the crime and get rid of plea bargains. You do the crime, you do the time and ignore the rest. Hate crimes are just there so people can try to get special favors for themselves or can punish others more severely just to get even. Terrible idea to have them at all.dickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08976498133597991337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7484150416463784312011-04-05T00:37:37.303-05:002011-04-05T00:37:37.303-05:00Can someone clarify for us poor rubes how these th...<i>Can someone clarify for us poor rubes how these things are actually described in NY law?</i><br /><br />When I googled NYS criminal assault this afternoon, I noticed that NY law made a plethora of distinctions, but the one thing in common was the victim had to be physically injured.former law studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196697206046544350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15242204298509105182011-04-04T23:55:43.383-05:002011-04-04T23:55:43.383-05:00Smilin' Jack,
Stop grinning and put some thou...Smilin' Jack,<br /><br />Stop grinning and put some thought into the fact that <i>intent</i> and <i>motivation</i> are not the same thing.<br /><br />DoS,<br /><br />Maybe in your state. But plenty of places are like WA, where <i>assault</i> is any actual physical force, and the term <i>battery</i> simply doesn't appear in law. Can someone clarify for us poor rubes how these things are actually described in NY law?Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-62525113910781331682011-04-04T21:53:33.289-05:002011-04-04T21:53:33.289-05:00Browndog said...
What if you're not gay, ...<i>Browndog said...<br /><br /> What if you're not gay, but just say you're gay to exact revenge?<br /><br /> Define "gay".<br /><br /> If it has legal protections, surley it has a legal definition.<br /><br /> Surely irrefutable evidence must exist to meet that definition.<br /><br /> I've asked for years on blog one simple question:<br /><br /> Define gay.<br /><br /> I have yet to get any answer.<br /><br /> But, I have been called a lot of names.<br /><br /> Feel free to weigh in.<br /><br /> Or, just call me names.</i><br /><br />You won't get an answer for the definition of 'gay' because inherently any definition will be a lie. Outside of defining what we all know homosexuality is, parsing it to genders via gay or lesbian is not only silly, but frankly stupid. Homosexuals not only want distinctions for their homosexuality, but they also would add further constraints to it by segregating it out by gender. Nonsense. Further more, the idea of being a gay man is transient since any man can assume the mantle of being gay even if they are straight for any purpose that would suit them legally.<br /><br />I've always made the contention that proving ones sexual proclivities to attain the legal benefits afforded to gay should be a factor for the 'special' status one receives for being gay as a protected class. As of now not only is that silly to suggest, but would be met with such hate and ridicule from said protected class toward you for even suggesting it. I could, today proclaim I'm gay and be instantly covered by everything under the sun. I could at the point before my murder proclaim I am gay and my murderer would be accused of a hate crime. Being gay is transient. Being a homosexual may not be. Either way, the idea is stupid and should be abandoned.<br /><br />Can anyone tell me what the distinct sexual segregation for a straight man or a straight woman would be?Methadrashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07828014989470539375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48603139782783015152011-04-04T21:40:43.451-05:002011-04-04T21:40:43.451-05:00Michael said...
Methradas:
Good examples...<i>Michael said...<br /><br /> Methradas:<br /><br /> Good examples. Now look at these explanations: I killed him because he said I was gay.<br /><br /> I killed him because he thought I was gay.<br /><br /> In either case is this a hate crime?</i><br /><br />No. This is not a hate crime. It actually would be an even less reason to call it one because you used speech as the determinant instead of thought, which I used as a determinant.Methadrashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07828014989470539375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-71168775454222749962011-04-04T21:35:27.808-05:002011-04-04T21:35:27.808-05:00If you kill him because he's gay, it is. I und...<i>If you kill him because he's gay, it is. I understand the "he's equally dead" style argument, but I think the point about repeat offenders exists, no? </i><br /><br />Well, no. The idea is that for whatever reason, the perp never does the deed again. <br /><br />This is why we have sentencing phases in trials, and parole boards.<br /><br />And how AGAIN does this relate to 12 year olds?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12258486225193805658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-21875510481773339032011-04-04T21:19:30.363-05:002011-04-04T21:19:30.363-05:00I'm firmly in the camp of those here who are ...I'm firmly in the camp of those here who are anti-hate-crime in all its forms for all the "slippery-slope" thought-control reasons given. And am with Freeman "common-sense" Hunt about how to handle run-of-the-mill school-yard bullying. <i>STILL</i> smilin' jack makes a very valid point about "intent" and its common use in the courts. But THAT metric is commonly applied in a pretty much value/cultural--free fact-of-the matter way. Hate-Crime "intent" is a horse of a TOTALLY different color. We ALL know the PC-driven reasons behind it and the resultant uneven one-way application of this concept in the real world no matter what its merits in theory.virgil xenophonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11491836830352263438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-6161872705588494562011-04-04T19:49:23.263-05:002011-04-04T19:49:23.263-05:00What if you're not gay, but just say you'r...What if you're not gay, but just say you're gay to exact revenge?<br /><br />Define "gay".<br /><br />If it has legal protections, surley it has a legal definition.<br /><br />Surely irrefutable evidence must exist to meet that definition.<br /><br />I've asked for years on blog one simple question:<br /><br />Define gay.<br /><br />I have yet to get <i>any</i> answer.<br /><br />But, I have been called a lot of names.<br /><br />Feel free to weigh in.<br /><br />Or, just call me names.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48002701367761706842011-04-04T19:38:29.649-05:002011-04-04T19:38:29.649-05:00Total BS. The kids should be punished within the s...Total BS. The kids should be punished within the school system and maybe not at all.Rouxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12459659398010937497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64133444595921929082011-04-04T19:30:22.278-05:002011-04-04T19:30:22.278-05:00Methradas:
Good examples. Now look at these ex...Methradas: <br /><br />Good examples. Now look at these explanations: I killed him because he said I was gay.<br /><br />I killed him because he thought I was gay.<br /><br />In either case is this a hate crime?Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08258681007386089907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-20105215341662290312011-04-04T19:16:45.504-05:002011-04-04T19:16:45.504-05:00Hey, FLS, all those kids who used to be sent to re...Hey, FLS, all those kids who used to be sent to reform school, boy's ranch, and alternative school are kept in ordinary school now. It's illegal to discriminate against them. They have rights. <br /><br /><br />Retired Teacher.ken in txhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345764031059905578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85693661787860405082011-04-04T19:00:20.051-05:002011-04-04T19:00:20.051-05:00In other hate crime news....Remember the Nubian Pr...In other hate crime news....Remember the Nubian Princess that accused the Duke Lacrosse players of a vicious hate crime that had the whole PC world calling for their hating hater rapist heads??<br /><br /><i>Crystal Gayle Mangum is charged with assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill. Her stabbed 46-year old boyfriend and driver to Mangum's various entertainment engagements is in the hospital in serious condition.<br />She is being held without bond, and jail officials did not know If she had an attorney.<br /><br />Mangum was convicted in December of several misdemeanor charges, including child abuse, in a fire that nearly destroyed her home.</i><br /><br />Gives the idea of better living and improved humanity through eugenics a boost, IMO.<br /><br />==============<br />The kids? No charge. 12 and 13 trying to rip a mask off a classmate?<br />As for masks, gang attire bandanas - schools have policies banning most face coverings and "colors". Kid walks to class with his blue Crips bandana covering his face, kid gets stopped.<br /><br />Like it or not, America is a culture that recoils from strangers wearing face-covering devices because in much of it - the person trying to obscure their identity is up to no good, is seen right away as a potential threat. <br /><br />In most Muslim countries there is non of that ridiculous face covering....only in the most primitive backwards lands and --sadly in the tolerant West. Even in dear old Saudi Arabia - hair covering and abiyahs (a robe) - with face uncovered. Every Muslim country that offers ID like drivers license or passport to women has women required to be photo'd with full facial feature ID. <br />And Muslim men who wear masks or facial covering? Same as here - suspected crooks and robbers - worse - in the sense they are arrested as bandits, robbers - and it is on them to prove otherwise at the beatings...err...Muslim police questioning..<br /><br />My opinion - ban the veil and hajib and Burqua as incompatable with our values. Freedom of Religion has to be tested against our other freedoms and right now, Muslims putting women in tents with eyeslits is a form of subjugation and it is also a threat to societal tranquility.Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11906980503054613622011-04-04T18:55:04.297-05:002011-04-04T18:55:04.297-05:00They should be charged, just to teach them a lesso...They should be charged, just to teach them a lesson, and then sue, have the charges dismissed and win seven gazillion dollars in punitive damages. It's the American way.<br /><br />As to Freeman's question--The President is involved in school bullying now, so why not the police.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17424384180201600935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-51876893449252220322011-04-04T18:51:52.734-05:002011-04-04T18:51:52.734-05:00Dose of Sanity said...
I understand your argu...<i>Dose of Sanity said...<br /><br /> I understand your arguments, and I see what you are guarding against. I'm trying to have a honest debate here - no need for the attacks against me.</i><br /><br />You are looking for the reason why a crime was committed to have it dovetail with the intent of why it was committed to begin with. Now, you threw up the 'death-because-gay' argument and I can see how that would lead you to this conclusion.<br /><br />For example:<br /><br />I killed him because he's gay.<br /><br />I killed him because I thought he was gay.<br /><br />I killed him and he happened to be gay.<br /><br />See the distinctions? All lead to death, but you would parse it out further for other extenuating circumstances regardless of the outcome, which is still murder. And in this current group-think of society, all would be classified as hate-crimes when all 3 intentions are completely different. That's why hate crimes don't work outside of slapping more time onto someone who should be executed to begin with.<br /><br />The same would apply to any other crime and when we start splitting the hairs of intent and lose focus on the actual crime committed, then we lose sight of what is before us. Everyone wants to know why a crime was committed, but that's not what we should prosecute crime on. It's the outcome. I can think about killing a million people, even imagine intent, but just because I thought so doesn't equate to actually doing it. Until you include hate crimes legislation into the mix. Then you crossed over into the twilight criminal psychology zone.Methadrashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07828014989470539375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61919398632839065252011-04-04T18:48:57.777-05:002011-04-04T18:48:57.777-05:00Browndog said...
If you wear funny looking cloth...Browndog said... <br /><br /><i>If you wear funny looking clothes in grade school, you're going to get picked on.</i><br /><br />Unless it's Jolly Ranchers in your hair. Then you're going to get picked on by the teacher.Martin L. Shoemakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02554126977342152497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52627464861223199632011-04-04T18:43:28.831-05:002011-04-04T18:43:28.831-05:00If you wear funny looking clothes in grade school,...If you wear funny looking clothes in grade school, you're going to get picked on.<br /><br />woops-<br /><br />I think I just committed a hate crime by slandering muslim attire.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-71380558681232540742011-04-04T18:39:36.167-05:002011-04-04T18:39:36.167-05:00How should physically violent students be treated?...<i>How should physically violent students be treated? </i><br /><br />Well from my past experience is when I got punched by a fellow classmate, I punched back twice as hard and as many times as I could until I made it clear that I wasn't to be fucked with. <br /><br />Amazaingly it seemed to work as I only had to do it once or twice and after that they found someone else to pick on.Hoosier Daddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12872965118921894534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86021224243574290332011-04-04T18:31:13.291-05:002011-04-04T18:31:13.291-05:00In my experience, bullying as a phenomenon was lim...In my experience, bullying as a phenomenon was limited to middle school. People were tolerant of the freaks and geeks in hs.former law studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196697206046544350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-72020533498339696972011-04-04T18:29:37.860-05:002011-04-04T18:29:37.860-05:00Freeman Hunt said...
An unprovoked beating with ...Freeman Hunt said... <br /><br /><i>An unprovoked beating with multiple assailants, however, is a different thing, and if the victim sustains injuries (as this one seems to have), calling the police is warranted.</i><br /><br />Yep. Injury (beyond scuffs and scrapes)? Call the police.<br /><br />Potential for serious injury? Call the police. Big adolescent males are far more serious of a threat.<br /><br />Teacher thinks he or she can't handle it? Call the police.<br /><br />Weapons? Call the police.<br /><br />A recurring pattern? Call the police.<br /><br />And if the police happen to be very close by and it would make a good object lesson... Maybe call the police.<br /><br />But as a general rule: kids fighting is a matter for the teachers and administrators, not the police.<br /><br />And sorry, former law student, but I don't trust the police to be any more "fair" in this regard. Schoolyard fights are usually too murky to properly assess blame. One of the meta-lessons kids must learn, at school or somewhere: life ain't fair.Martin L. Shoemakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02554126977342152497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-90183189181639880232011-04-04T18:23:53.149-05:002011-04-04T18:23:53.149-05:00Dose, a huge problem with hate crime law is where ...Dose, a huge problem with hate crime law is where does it begin and end? I was a tall, skinny kid all the way through high school. Occasionally, I got bullied for no apparent reason.<br /><br />Why was I bullied? Because I seemed an easy target? Because my family was relatively well off? Because I was smarter or happier than most?<br /><br />Who knows. Bullies are predators. Most often they pick targets that look vulnerable. These kids probably don't have much in the way of feelings about Muslims. But, a Muslim girl wearing a hijab is probably at least somewhat of a social outcast in a typical public school, making her an easy target. Insults relevant to the girl's religion and ethnicity are used because such insults are more hurtful than saying she has big feet. Although, I'm not denying an element of hate may exist.<br /><br />Ironically, blacks, one of the groups hate crime laws were intended to protect, are <a href="http://www.justice.gov/crs/pubs/htecrm.htm" rel="nofollow">more likely to be commit hate crimes than whites</a>.DADvocatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04621021178600799126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91899112913174461772011-04-04T18:05:47.869-05:002011-04-04T18:05:47.869-05:00For a fight where two kids get ticked off at each ...For a fight where two kids get ticked off at each other and start trading blows, I wouldn't bring in authorities unless it was incredibly severe.<br /><br />An unprovoked beating with multiple assailants, however, is a different thing, and if the victim sustains injuries (as this one seems to have), calling the police is warranted.Freeman Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16202310075717963694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27921497038328757672011-04-04T18:02:07.987-05:002011-04-04T18:02:07.987-05:00We simply don't have the manpower to bring the...<i>We simply don't have the manpower to bring the police in for every schoolyard fight. </i><br /><br />But teachers and principals suck at resolving conflicts. HD's experience of being the blamed (and punished) victim rings all too true. Cops are trained to maintain order, and to have their lawful authority complied with.former law studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196697206046544350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31935750403612764802011-04-04T17:55:42.257-05:002011-04-04T17:55:42.257-05:00FLS, I frankly don't care how spiritually spec...FLS, I frankly don't care how spiritually special the hijab is in and of itself: it simply cannot, and will not, be analogous to indecent exposure. The polity has no interest in dignifying it with some special regard.<br /><br /> If this episode involves a beating then it's a much more serious offense-- but I remain adamantly opposed to "hate crimes" legislation.Luciushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03938166025093103574noreply@blogger.com