tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post262872500563549899..comments2024-03-28T20:14:01.928-05:00Comments on Althouse: Canada's War of 1812 monument. Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37341343307380754302013-06-22T00:37:26.012-05:002013-06-22T00:37:26.012-05:00How can you stab a nation in the back that wont st...How can you stab a nation in the back that wont stop boarding your ships and impressing sailors. The real reason we don't talk very much about the War of 1812 is because the Northern Federalists behaved so ignominiously and rehashing that might lead to some questions about just why the South was supposed to grin and take it when things went against the South. The main shipping magnates of the Northeast while the war was raging attempted to negioate a seperate peace with the British. This was interrupted not by any second thoughts but because of the victory at New Orleans. If <br /><br /><br />The real loser of the war was constitutional government because the north demonstrated that their loyalty to the union was only as deep as their ability to dominate the government.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03822785332914878380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-2653210511150629592013-06-21T07:34:37.477-05:002013-06-21T07:34:37.477-05:00The war was a draw.
Many Americans wanted to anne...The war was a draw.<br /><br />Many Americans wanted to annex part if not all of Canada. This objective was not achieved.<br /><br />The British wanted to compel the US to cede northern New York, eastern Maine, the Louisiana Territory and most of the Old Northwest. This would have reduced the US to less than half of its territory. This objective was not achieved.<br /><br />If it can be said that Canada won by continuing to exist, it can also be said that Canada lost because it did not expand its borders at the expense of the United States.<br /><br />It was a draw.John Farrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12071863229591899452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-27475005928793820792013-06-21T05:12:03.795-05:002013-06-21T05:12:03.795-05:00"Had things gone differently in this conflict..."Had things gone differently in this conflict, America would not exist today, and the bottom line is we are still here."<br /><br />Um, no. The war was a war of choice and agression on the part of the USA, hoping to get Canada by stabbing the British in the back while they were fighting for their lives in Europe. The status quo ante was a wholly satisfactory result for Britain - I've never really understood those Americans who think the war was about resisting a British attempt to reconquer the colonies. For all the world you guys sound like a disillusioned ex-wife who, after a bitter divorce, can't accept that her husband doesn't want her back.<br /><br />"The U.S. got all their pre-war complains about trade, freedom of the seas, impressment, etc. settled in their favor."<br /><br />Those issues were all settled before the war even started. They were barely even an excuse, never mind the key reason.<br /><br />"The invasion of Canada was a half-assed diversion."<br /><br />No, it was the sole remaining reason for the war after Britain conceded on essentially all the USA's legitimate grievances before the war even started.<br /><br />"The Battle of New Orleans was epic and vastly important though it was technically fought after the war ended. Furthermore TosaGuy is dead on about British intent regarding New Orleans."<br /><br />It was a trivial sideshow fought over territory that had already been conceded, and even if the British had wanted to change their minds they wouldn't have for one brazenly obvious reason - Napoleon had escaped by that point and the North American war needed to be closed down so the troops could be shipped back to Europe.<br /><br />"General Pakenham's army was composed of veterans of the Peninsular War. They best soldiers in the British Army, having recently defeated Soult's forces in Spain."<br /><br />Some were, some were new troops and about a third were men of the West India regiment, slaves who had earned their freedom by volunteering for army service and whose terms of enlistment meant they didn't serve outside the Caribbean. Pakenham himself BTW was a half-way decent staff officer who had never held an independent command in his life who got the gig largely because nobody else wanted it and partly because he was the nephew of the Duke of Wellington and there was a vague hope some of his uncle's genius would have rubbed off (it didn't).<br /><br />Good post though, apart from all the stuff you got wrong anyway.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05423394808469206711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44057582273453522972013-06-21T04:21:37.079-05:002013-06-21T04:21:37.079-05:00"Had things gone differently in this conflict...<i>"Had things gone differently in this conflict, Canada would not exist today, and the bottom line is we are still here."</i><br /><br />Had things gone differently in this conflict, <b>America</b> would not exist today, and the bottom line is <b>we</b> are still here.<br /><br />The U.S. got all their pre-war complains about trade, freedom of the seas, impressment, etc. settled in their favor. We won. The invasion of Canada was a half-assed diversion. The Battle of New Orleans was epic and vastly important though it was technically fought after the war ended. Furthermore TosaGuy is dead on about British intent regarding New Orleans.<br /><br />General Pakenham's army was composed of veterans of the Peninsular War. They best soldiers in the British Army, having recently defeated Soult's forces in Spain. They were the first British land force to win a significant campaign on the Continent since Marlborough's time. Pakenham were sent to wrest control of the Mississippi from the Americans before a peace could be settled, which would negate the advantages gained by Napoleon's sale of Louisiana to the United States in 1803. New Orleans was part of that deal. France had ceded it's colony of New Orleans to Spain in 1763. However, in 1801 France regained control of the city by arm-twisting their Spanish ally (the Emperor eventually replaced the House of Bourbon y Bourbon with his brother Joseph Bonaparte). The British regarded any Napoleonic policy as illegitimate, therefore they wanted to seize the territory for their empire at French and American expense, though Pitt allowed the Spanish Bourbons to believe that the Louisiana would revert to Spain come the end of the wars against Napoleon.Quaestorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13688608372863540573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24487904605495801482013-06-21T04:15:08.525-05:002013-06-21T04:15:08.525-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Quaestorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13688608372863540573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-82490035062333960002013-06-21T00:41:47.764-05:002013-06-21T00:41:47.764-05:00Battle of New Orleans hasn't happened yet.
Su...Battle of New Orleans hasn't happened yet.<br /><br />Suck it Britain.<br /><br />Lylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09082051710068390275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-79878531584730364172013-06-20T23:47:20.439-05:002013-06-20T23:47:20.439-05:00Are Canadians 'citizens of Canada' or '...Are Canadians 'citizens of Canada' or 'subjects of her majesty'?<br />Or both?<br />Lewis Wetzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01200232293505119133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-83136860717531527422013-06-20T21:13:52.270-05:002013-06-20T21:13:52.270-05:00Because of the war of 1812 Canada kept Quebec.
So...Because of the war of 1812 Canada kept Quebec.<br /><br />So the USA won. rcoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17102201338319611538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-77731300740717683532013-06-20T20:51:57.363-05:002013-06-20T20:51:57.363-05:00Blessed be the self righteous, for they shall inhe...Blessed be the self righteous, for they shall inherit Canadaampersandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17145013352755061465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33192872398271577692013-06-20T19:41:06.615-05:002013-06-20T19:41:06.615-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mitch H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01630047498946143646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49777366893224288992013-06-20T19:41:05.910-05:002013-06-20T19:41:05.910-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mitch H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01630047498946143646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-13119815604228140382013-06-20T19:40:51.216-05:002013-06-20T19:40:51.216-05:00Random almost has it, but instead of Acapulco, rep...Random almost has it, but instead of Acapulco, replace that with Veracruz. Although to be honest, the power discrepancy between Mexico and the US in 1944 is like five to ten times that of Great Britain and the US in 1812-1814.Mitch H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01630047498946143646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34165469018586414452013-06-20T19:26:00.793-05:002013-06-20T19:26:00.793-05:00I didn't say it was little. I don't know y...I didn't say it was little. I don't know you.ken in txhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345764031059905578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7218387586338221722013-06-20T19:19:19.208-05:002013-06-20T19:19:19.208-05:00Bless your heart Paco.
Bless your heart Paco.<br />ken in txhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345764031059905578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15341770479901276252013-06-20T19:15:31.347-05:002013-06-20T19:15:31.347-05:00Plus, I am retired from the Air Force . Every US A...Plus, I am retired from the Air Force . Every US Air Force member knows that the poem 'High Flight' was written by a Canadian. It still brings tears to my eyes.<br /> ken in txhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345764031059905578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19862278130763134722013-06-20T19:11:25.902-05:002013-06-20T19:11:25.902-05:00They are good people.
Bless their little hearts!<i>They are good people.</i><br /><br />Bless their little hearts!<br />Paco Wovéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00053886112561036768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38399680027270135462013-06-20T19:03:06.089-05:002013-06-20T19:03:06.089-05:00I am willing to let Canadians have their day of gl...I am willing to let Canadians have their day of glory. I like Canadians. I have Canadians in my family. They are good people.<br />ken in txhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345764031059905578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89404485795806209322013-06-20T17:33:32.811-05:002013-06-20T17:33:32.811-05:00Bah - "to seize Acapulco is a failure". ...Bah - "to seize Acapulco is a failure". <br /><br />If it's not obvious BTW I've always thought the most straightforward verdict on the war is - the British won, the Americans drew and the Indians lost.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05423394808469206711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22903525807208617362013-06-20T17:30:51.523-05:002013-06-20T17:30:51.523-05:00Steven, Britain didn't want the war, and was p...Steven, Britain didn't want the war, and was perfectly happy to exit with the status quo ante. As for supposed military avantages, I'm not sure how you make being locked in to a death struggle with Napoleon that far overshadowed anything happening in North America as an advantage, but I'm sure you'll find a way. It was no coincidence BTW that the American government scrambled to negotiate an end to the war as Napoleon was driven from power.<br /><br />Let me offer you a metaphor that may help put the war of 1812 into context. It's 1944, and the government of Mexico seeing that the US military is fully tied down in Europe and the Pacific, decides that this the perfect time to avenge the humiliations of the 19th century and declares war on the US and invades.<br /><br />It's a fiasco of course - the invasions are turned back by the Californian and Texan national guards, Mexico City is burned in a training mission by the USAAF, but on the other hand a hastily planned and ill-led attempt to seize Acapulco. It's now early summer of 1945 and American troops are heading back from Europe. An increasingly desperate Mexican government offers an immediate end to hostilities, and a US government which had barely noticed the war and is concentrating on Japan, agrees.<br /><br />It's now almost 80 years later, and the only battle of the war the vast majority of Mexicans have heard of is Acapulco, and Mexican posters on the internet are claiming they won the war because the US - for the first time in a Mexican-American War - have failed to conquer any Mexican territory and have been forced to take Mexico seriously as an independent nation. How do you reply to them?Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05423394808469206711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-13616150307935575242013-06-20T16:26:25.472-05:002013-06-20T16:26:25.472-05:00It's true that the US didn't successfully ...It's true that the US didn't successfully seize Canada . . . but that's like pointing out the US failed to successfully invade the Japanese Home Islands in World War 2. That was a <i>strategy</i>, not a goal.<br /><br />Seizing Canada was intended as a <i>means</i> to that end, because if the US controlled Canada, the US would control critical naval stores and dictate terms to the Royal Navy (the other source of those stores being Scandanavia, then under Napoleon's control).<br /><br />The US goal in the war was to make the British Navy stop attacking and seizing US ships and impressing American sailors. The US won; the British ended the practices.<br /><br />At the same time, the goal of the Canadian militia was to stop the US from conquering Canada. They also succeeded, and so the proto-nation of Canada could be said to have won.<br /><br />The side that lost the war was the British, who not only failed to win anything (which was humiliating given their military advantages over the US), but as a consequence of the peace wound up conceding a US claim on Fort Astoria and thus strengthened US claims to the Oregon Country.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05138730966226244399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22948195545899925352013-06-20T16:12:30.094-05:002013-06-20T16:12:30.094-05:00Will Sacajewea be included in the 1812 monument? I...Will Sacajewea be included in the 1812 monument? I don't care if she wasn't a participant, it can't be a true multiculti monument without Sacajewea. ricpichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01321511130788764861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87876279083487555382013-06-20T16:02:41.267-05:002013-06-20T16:02:41.267-05:00The Canadians are superficially civil, being Briti...The Canadians are superficially civil, being British and all that. But scratch an Ontario man and you will find a Scots-Irish fighter. Good thing we out number them 100 to 1.<br /><br />What the Canadian volunteers did fighting Nazi Germany in WWII for the British, and also for Allies including the USA, was fierce and was extremely brave. Too bad they don't get better PR in The States. traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-47750107312725846662013-06-20T15:37:49.853-05:002013-06-20T15:37:49.853-05:00She probably had a blog:
"Things wot I made t...She probably had a blog:<br />"Things wot I made then fed to the enemy"Fred Drinkwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01619653106362906811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86160436840956278192013-06-20T15:37:47.139-05:002013-06-20T15:37:47.139-05:00This "Canadian" vs "British" a...This "Canadian" vs "British" argument is purely from a US viewpoint. In 1812 I will wager that "Canadians" saw no distinction between themselves and the "British". They would have regarded themselves, whether native born or born in the British Isles, as British regardless. That was the whole point of Canada in the first place: To be British and be under the rule of the King (or Queen).<br /><br />It is completely legitimate therefore for Canadians to say "we" burned down the White House, because "we" were "they" were "we". They were, in fact, fighting for the "we" to remain as part of the "they"!Blairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02865567065778234500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23956395947697516792013-06-20T15:36:22.387-05:002013-06-20T15:36:22.387-05:00Y'all are missing out on the deep tradition sh...Y'all are missing out on the deep tradition shown in that pic of dear Betsey. There she is, right on the front lines, and what's she doing? Why, cooking, of course.<br />Fred Drinkwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01619653106362906811noreply@blogger.com