tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1986243207379127571..comments2024-03-28T11:49:48.823-05:00Comments on Althouse: "A study published in PLOS One suggests that the type of fiction a person reads affects their social cognition in different ways."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger197125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68394782131441949982021-03-03T15:36:44.777-06:002021-03-03T15:36:44.777-06:00"I don't like historical fiction. There&#..."I don't like historical fiction. There's always one character who has all the right insights and convictions which miraculously mirror our own insights and convictions about the era (error) they were living in...”<br /><br />What authors have you read, to come to that conclusion?<br />Give a try to Sharon Kay Penman's "Here Be Dragons," or "When Christ and His Saints Slept." Have you read any Anya Seton, especially "Katherine," her novel about Katherine Swynford and John of Gaunt? Or what about Hillary Mantel's Cromwell trilogy? Ken Follett's "The Pillars of the Earth"? Edward Rutherford or even the Brother Cadfael medieval mysteries by Pargeter/Peters? Or, two of my favorite trilogies: Moberg's "The Emigrants" and Celia Hayes's "Adelsverein" books.<br /><br />I felt your kind of suspicion while reading books like Forrest Gump and Wouk's "The Winds of War" and its sequel, where the main character seems to find himself present at multiple major turning points of history.... But there's a lot of well-done, well-researched, historical fiction that manages to be both enlightening and entertaining.ColoCommenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027471823319260166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-41336028164962201022021-03-03T11:06:01.125-06:002021-03-03T11:06:01.125-06:00"but the rise of academics who know and love ..."but the rise of academics who know and love and study popular entertainment more than high culture artifacts wasn't an improvement," says Lurker21, and he's right.<br /><br />A major theme of De Lillo's "White Noise" illustrates: the protagonist is the head of a new 'Department of Hitler Studies" at a podunk college, despite not reading a word of German; his colleague wants to start a similar Department of Elvis Studies (boy does that one hit close to some people I knew on campus), and one character is developing a class to study movie- and TV-car-crashes.<br /><br />A hundred years ago an American academic could reasonably be expected to pay at least lip service to the artistic achievements of Europe, and perhaps appreciate fine wine; nowadays many if not most American academics pride themselves on their ignorance of high culture--with the exception of the oenophilia, which is on constant display.<br /><br />Narr<br />And don't get me started on the jock-sniffing<br />Narrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043247682000851606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37000538253707048632021-03-03T09:16:33.109-06:002021-03-03T09:16:33.109-06:00There must be a word for a word that is newly slip...<i> There must be a word for a word that is newly slipping from one language into another. I accept it. I understand it. He could have said "auspicious," but it's charming that he didn't. </i><br /><br />I doubt that <i>auspicable</i> is slipping into English -- as you pointed out, we already have <i>auspicious</i>. The author simply anglicized the Italian word, but this time it didn't work.<br /><br />It <i>is</i> perhaps charming, though.Craig Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17778080830068892260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86022273481291868752021-03-03T08:42:41.853-06:002021-03-03T08:42:41.853-06:00Clearly, her readers probably have many misconcept...<i>Clearly, her readers probably have many misconceptions about life and probably would misjudge what was going on around them and what was likely to happen.</i><br /><br />Probably, but maybe not. One of the problems with mid-20th century critiques of mass culture is that they didn't take into account the fact that many who enjoyed it didn't simply accept its assumptions at face value. They could read or watch conventional genre stories with distance or irony or just the knowledge that the world wasn't really like that. That so many academics loved mystery novels even when they were supposed to despise them ought to have given the cultural critics a clue. The cultured despisers of mass culture were stuffed shirts, but the rise of academics who know and love and study popular entertainment more than high culture artifacts wasn't an improvement.Lurker21https://www.blogger.com/profile/05692740653467688670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-20775520650166891932021-03-03T08:34:00.313-06:002021-03-03T08:34:00.313-06:00Who do you consider to be Shakespeare's modern...<i>Who do you consider to be Shakespeare's modern day successors? Does Shakespeare actually have any successors?</i><br /><br />I don't know if he's Shakepeare's successor, but I think David Milch achieved peak artistry in entertainment on television, touching glory with his Hill Street Blues episodes, most NYPD Blue, and hitting his peak with Deadwood season 1.daskolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08644768542015986565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3152424642853159202021-03-03T06:50:07.143-06:002021-03-03T06:50:07.143-06:00At any rate, if you see two people sitting next to...<i>At any rate, if you see two people sitting next to you on a bench and one is reading a Tolstoy doorstopper and the other is reading a Barbara Cartland bodice ripper, which one would you assume is better at mind reading? And which one would you want to talk to?</i><br /><br />I'd want to talk to the Tolstoy reader (if I feel up to it), but I wouldn't necessarily think that he or she was a good mind-reader. Sometimes the concepts and reading can get in the way of direct perception, and nobody can really read other people's minds. <br /><br />But Cartland isn't the best choice for a comparison. Clearly, her readers probably have many misconceptions about life and probably would misjudge what was going on around them and what was likely to happen.Lurker21https://www.blogger.com/profile/05692740653467688670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39704756701267275492021-03-03T06:42:48.678-06:002021-03-03T06:42:48.678-06:00Much science fiction is conceptual. It's like...Much science fiction is conceptual. It's like a fable or a philosophical tale. The point isn't the development of the characters' psyches, but rather the underlying idea or premise or the picture of a future world. In mystery and crime, the point is who did it or how we find out who did it. With horror, it's the chill or shudder. In fantasy, it's the creation of an alternative world or universe. That somebody is an ogre or a magician is enough; we don't need to understand their individual feelings. And yet, some authors in all of these genres have been very good and perceptive writers, just as most writers of literary fiction really aren't that good or perceptive.<br /><br />Gibson's “Paragon-Asia Dataflow” is a straw in the wind. I doubt he means it seriously or that it means anything in itself. It's a signal. If you respond positively, this is the sort of detail that you like and that makes the story more real for you. If you hate it, you put the book down. But look back. Nineteenth century literary novels were fill of little details. Authors and readers often did want to know just exactly what characters looked like, what they wore, and what they filled their houses with. Thinking back again, it may not have been the best writers who were obsessed with such details, but that was definitely the convention in those days. And thinking back over my own life, when I was young, I sort of expected that from novels, and others may have too. <br /><br />Modern literary writers also go into lifestyle detail. In describing surroundings and decor, nineteenth century writers may have been trying to classify characters by class, but often just couldn't help themselves. More recent writers go into "status detail" to pigeon-hole characters based on a political agenda.<br /><br />Lurker21https://www.blogger.com/profile/05692740653467688670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-2363491341866288472021-03-03T06:37:35.676-06:002021-03-03T06:37:35.676-06:00"I don't like historical fiction. There&#..."I don't like historical fiction. There's always one character who has all the right insights and convictions which miraculously mirror our own insights and convictions about the era (error) they were living in...”<br /><br />I am writing a historical novel right now. I should be working this minute, but that’s an interesting insight into a ready pitfall. I guess that the solution is to present the reality naturalistically and let the reader judge. There is no way a novel like <i>Gone With the Wind</i> could ever be anything but self published in today’s environment. tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-71414139058023683622021-03-03T06:29:42.253-06:002021-03-03T06:29:42.253-06:00“If a work is to be "serious" or "l...“If a work is to be "serious" or "literary," it need only be good. If it's good, it succeeds as literature whatever the nominal "genre." And if it's self-consciously "literary," more often than not it sucks. “<br /><br />Yep. Literary is kind of like jazz, jazz avoids the kinds of fixed rules that most genre music like rock, bluegrass, blues, etc, but jazz still has its rules and while some jazz is extraordinary, a lot of it is kind of unlistenable unless you are really tuned into it as a listener, and even then it sucks, since it can be about the musicians showing off their chops, pat them on the head and move on. It’s the same with writers who want to show off their chops, and think it’s beneath them to provide reasons for the reader to read them.<br /><br /><i>Infinite Jest</i> is brilliant in places, but when you get to the end, it’s hard not to feel like the real “jest,” the joke, was on the reader. tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-88383821736829214882021-03-03T02:20:09.513-06:002021-03-03T02:20:09.513-06:00"The literary type pushes us to assess others..."The literary type pushes us to assess others as unique individuals"<br /><br />In 2021??? LOL - now that they're done with Dr Seuss, I suppose this wrongthinker will be next, leading to an eventual ban on all literary thinking that encourages the reader to assess others as unique individuals.<br /><br />I mean...the gall of someone to think that a person's identity isn't first and foremost a collection of genetic characteristics that nobody has any control over.<br /><br />Good thing for this author, cancel culture doesn't exist, right? Right??Scott Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02459388007426664813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29977385654446614702021-03-02T23:21:10.138-06:002021-03-02T23:21:10.138-06:00Gospace,
Someone left a big bag full of Koontz pa...Gospace,<br /><br />Someone left a big bag full of Koontz paperbacks at my workplace a few decades back and told us to help ourselves. I took a couple and really, really wish I had not. The man out-creeps Stephen King, which is saying a good deal, and there are things it's impossible to un-read. <br /><br />That said, horror is another "genre." What there qualifies as "literary"? I wouldn't even exclude King; there are books that repay rereading, strange though it seem.Michelle Dulak Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041391162535875301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38802102650124022762021-03-02T23:15:21.418-06:002021-03-02T23:15:21.418-06:00Ann, I really can't stand the conflation of &q...Ann, I really can't stand the conflation of "popular fiction" with "genre fiction." It makes no sense either abstractly or in reality. People have mentioned Heinlein and Dick and Bradbury; I'd add Neal Stephenson and Orson Scott Card. (I'm rereading <i>Speaker For the Dead</i> right now.) Similarly mysteries: P. D. James and Elizabeth George and Catherine Aird and Ruth Rendell, and earlier authors like Edmund Crispin and Margery Allingham and Ngaio Marsh and Dorothy Sayers and G. K. Chesterton, are writers who do indeed put life into their characters. Plot drives a mystery, sure, but it needn't be all there is, and in the writers I mentioned just now, it isn't. <br /><br />What about humor? Where do you put Wodehouse, for example? You can say that his jokes are all old and his plots perfunctory, but I defy anyone to imitate him successfully. <br /><br />If a work is to be "serious" or "literary," it need only be <i>good.</i> If it's good, it succeeds as literature whatever the nominal "genre." And if it's <i>self-consciously</i> "literary," more often than not it sucks. I know, I know, it's all about the subtle nuances of the life of a Nigerian girl transplanted to Tennessee, or whatever, but if there's no scaffolding at all, no plot to hang onto, no <i>events</i> to hang onto, it's very easy to lose concentration. Michelle Dulak Thomsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18041391162535875301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-48386889659166554322021-03-02T22:45:30.604-06:002021-03-02T22:45:30.604-06:00Lightning by Dean Koontz is the first book I read ...<i>Lightning</i> by Dean Koontz is the first book I read by him. If I had read any other book of his first, that would have been the end of my reading Koontz. <i>Lightning</i> was marketed as popular fiction, not science fiction. <i>Lightning</i> is science fiction through and through. Wasn't marketed as such because the major publishing houses refer the "science fiction ghetto" when they classify a book as scifi. Romance, scifi, westerns, possibly some other genres- they know exactly how many books they'll sell and to whom. A Tom Clancy or J.K. Rowling coming along and creating a best seller out of seemingly nowhere is rare. Most best sellers become such because the publisher PUSHES them, hard, and gets them them reviewed, often, by influential reviewers. Lois McMaster Bujold (one of my favorite), Spider Robinson, Sarah Hoyt, none of these are going to be pushed- they're just going to be published, a few more than they expect to sell, but no million copy runs.<br /><br />I read more than just science fiction. I read fantasy every day. The NY Times, the Washington Post....Gospacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570281939230746682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-38606660313771697032021-03-02T22:30:37.006-06:002021-03-02T22:30:37.006-06:00I only read Sue Grafton novels.<a href="https://theheathledger.blogspot.com/2010/12/graftons-publishers-refuse-to-believe.html" rel="nofollow">I only read Sue Grafton novels.</a>Known Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029003649395214104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-986575805163673242021-03-02T21:58:50.490-06:002021-03-02T21:58:50.490-06:00The WW I aviators fired rifle-sized cartridges. S...The WW I aviators fired rifle-sized cartridges. So a pilot could get hit and die an agonizing, bleeding out death. Or burn to death prior to crashing.<br />Point is, though, the guys on the ground didn't see it that way at first. Took a bit to imagine it.<br />In WW II with radios, a lot of guys died with their radios open. So you heard them screaming as the burned up, or crying for their mothers.Richard Aubreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15039944125783378912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22967342257613782852021-03-02T21:19:45.863-06:002021-03-02T21:19:45.863-06:00"Airplane pilots in WWI died clean, brave dea..."Airplane pilots in WWI died clean, brave deaths." <br /><br />Not really.<br /><br />Narr<br />But isn't it pretty to think so?<br /><br />Narrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043247682000851606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-31321202521628583742021-03-02T21:05:26.321-06:002021-03-02T21:05:26.321-06:00I was a lot more, immensely more, literary when I ...I was a lot more, immensely more, literary when I was younger in high school and through my 20s. I'm not as patient now. I say I don't have as much time as I did, but I probably do, I just got pulled in by blogs and apps. Killed my reading endurance. Paddy Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10442537362540160512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78830542154012040072021-03-02T21:03:52.880-06:002021-03-02T21:03:52.880-06:00"I remember reading Grisham's "The F..."I remember reading Grisham's "The Firm" and thinking that this was simultaneously the worst writing and the best plot development I had ever come across."<br /><br />This is close to my immediate reaction to Dan Brown. Everything about his writing is the epitome of hacky. I was studying writing a great deal back then and in a couple pages he broke every good writing rule there is. Not in a genius, surpassing the art way either. In a hacky, schlocky way of bad internet fan fiction. But he was a genius at pacing. He also was really good at what is really literary link bait, he has the worst stories and characters and overall writing but they're about topics people want to get mad at or see the worst in. <br /><br />He just pulled the reader along and those who didn't have literary taste just had no hope in not devouring his books and even those that do find it strangely compelling. But I never read another book of his. <br /><br />Do one or two things extremely well and that sometimes is more than enough to get a big audience. Paddy Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10442537362540160512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11122081423303383052021-03-02T20:43:11.736-06:002021-03-02T20:43:11.736-06:00Anna Karenina was a lot of work keeping the charac...Anna Karenina was a lot of work keeping the characters straight like "h" mentioned at 9:50 am. But not in the first paragraph. And it was worth it! It was serialized for a newspaper, so it was once popular. I'm working my way through the masterpieces. Retail Lawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17489770843880992380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91797986437879984042021-03-02T20:39:46.197-06:002021-03-02T20:39:46.197-06:00Some final, later in the evening thoughts:
Bradbu...Some final, later in the evening thoughts:<br /><br />Bradbury was in a league of his own with his literary science-fiction.<br /><br />One of my many definitions of what makes a good book: You don't want to put it down. And while it satisfies you, you are "sad" you completed reading it. <br /><br />THEOLDMANMarcus Bresslerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324813856647190727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-45580550159664354272021-03-02T20:28:10.730-06:002021-03-02T20:28:10.730-06:00Random points: Airplane pilots in WWI died clean,...Random points: Airplane pilots in WWI died clean, brave deaths. They were about the only ones. Most of the casualties were from artillery shells. There were some who got machine gunned or gassed, but most of the deaths were by artillery. The casualties never got to strike heroic poses before they died.......I don't like historical fiction. There's always one character who has all the right insights and convictions which miraculously mirror our own insights and convictions about the era (error) they were living in.....Exception to the rule: Vanity Fair, War and Peace, and Gone With The Wind. I think the authors of those books presented characters who were people living in that moment and whose characters didn't know wtf it all meant. Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07837540030934495651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-24393379821968910942021-03-02T19:49:54.399-06:002021-03-02T19:49:54.399-06:00If you were, let’s say, sitting for a psychologica...If you were, let’s say, sitting for a psychological examination for some job or something and you let on that you were “good at mind reading” you can bet that something is going to get jotted down in the examiner’s notebook. Same as reading a novel. You have to put yourself into the mind of a paranoid person, where everything that happens means something or it wouldn’t have been put in the novel. In real life meaningless stuff happens all the time and people who ascribe meaning to random events are viewed as crazy. So maybe novels teach you the skills you need to be crazy.<br /><br />One thing I think that reading literary fiction does help you with is to see through propaganda. Bill Clinton used literary techniques in politics, at least he was the first one I noticed to do it. And it has only gotten worse since.tim in vermonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06547980465313241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70837654898798027782021-03-02T19:24:56.000-06:002021-03-02T19:24:56.000-06:00Dostoevsky and Tolstoy were both serialized in pop...Dostoevsky and Tolstoy were both serialized in popular magazines. War & Peace and Crime and Punishment overlapped. <br /><br />I remember puzzling when I was a teenager about whether people like Jacqueline Susan knew they were terrible writers and did it anyway or they really believed in their stories and their own style. <br /><br />I am currently recovering from binge reading Julia Quinn's Bridgerton series (I did skip a lot of the bodice ripping.) I am now about halfway through re-reading Thomas Wolfe's "You Can't Go Home Again." I read a lot across most genres except horror.<br /><br />So far my mind reading skills have not improved. Perhaps the genre books take the edge off.<br /><br />Li-Fi is just a publisher's category and like most things about 90% of the new stuff is crap. I find a good test is if it's been in print for more than 30 years or someone has bothered to translate it there's something worth thinking about reading. <br /><br />I agree that everyone should read Bujold and peruse the Baen.com site to see if there's anything that appeals. Leorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14855141178189188764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-9853622761086770152021-03-02T19:09:42.675-06:002021-03-02T19:09:42.675-06:00Decades ago, I concluded that people show themselv...Decades ago, I concluded that people show themselves as they would prefer to be seen or known. After not so much practice, say starting at age eight, it becomes automatic.<br />It's done under stress, in some cases terrible stress.<br />"not so deep as a well nor as wide as a church door...but t'will do."<br />Guy's bleeding out and knows it but he's bound to leave an image he wants.<br /><br />Something about nothing becomes a man in this life more than his leaving of it.<br /><br />Obviously, less interesting times are less likely to stress the image process. Does the image become the person?<br /><br />Point of all this is the literary writing's conceit that a character and thus the reader can "understand" a person in what might be called the contemporary version of a Cartland drawing room is nonsense.<br /><br />David Drake's sci fi and fantasy tell you how the characters got to be who they are--without lengthy explanation. Not the whole thing, but enough.<br /><br />Rereading Sutcliffe's fictional treatment of Arthur, "Sword at Sunset". First person, lots of introspection and sensory descriptions--smell of upturned earth, etc.--and the whole built around war.<br /><br />The same for Downie's "Medicus" series.<br /><br />And O'Brian.<br /><br />Talked to an amateur actor who specializes in Shakespeare. Said the original directions had lots of low, physical humor. Today, since it's done in British Received Conservative Pronunciation, which sounds even snootier than the posh upper class Britspeak, must be deep, man. And it is. But if it were performed in Cockney, the effect might be different. One would be "literary" and the other not.Richard Aubreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15039944125783378912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-45235235067874272192021-03-02T19:05:47.528-06:002021-03-02T19:05:47.528-06:00I got through med school reading Don Pendelton'...<i>I got through med school reading Don Pendelton's, Mack Bolan series. </i><br /><br />I read all of AJ Cronin's novels.Michael Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18127450762129879267noreply@blogger.com