tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1841401512477216433..comments2024-03-19T00:44:18.309-05:00Comments on Althouse: Let's watch the Saddleback Presidential Forum together.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger203125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58312222758860960382008-08-18T14:13:00.000-05:002008-08-18T14:13:00.000-05:00Thank you Ann, I thought I had missed much more th...Thank you Ann, I thought I had missed much more than I did based on your "live blogging"....sharinlitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04703314062021302776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28302308177899676332008-08-18T12:21:00.000-05:002008-08-18T12:21:00.000-05:00Well, McCain supporters, we should all enjoy this ...Well, McCain supporters, we should all enjoy this small respite of joy in the "McCain won glow" while we can.<BR/><BR/>Because today, all the debates and all the Obama imagery will be controlled by the Main Stream media, where any McCain "attack" on Obama will be immediately questioned or countered by the media themselves. And where in any <A HREF="http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/mccain-slams-obama-on-national-security/?hp" REL="nofollow">article on McCain, Obama's people will always get the last word.</A>Host with the Mosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17688942020227316003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-50740302469723668102008-08-17T14:20:00.000-05:002008-08-17T14:20:00.000-05:00I know this thread is past its limit, but I felt t...I know this thread is past its limit, but I felt the need to respond:<BR/><BR/><I>I am pretty sure that no matter who wins, I will still have my free speech rights as an American, will be able to gripe whenever I choose, and as such won't have forfeited anything.</I><BR/><BR/>I said <I>symbolically</I>, EnigmatiCore. Nobody's disputing your free speech rights; all I'm saying is that, if you don't participate in the voting process, your words may carry less weight with those who did.Kevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01433235586096305061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37047850961698588182008-08-17T07:37:00.000-05:002008-08-17T07:37:00.000-05:00"EnigmatiCore--I can give you one more reason not ..."EnigmatiCore--I can give you one more reason not to sit out the election: If you do so, you symbolically forfeit the right to gripe about whatever happens the next four years. (And there may be a lot to gripe about!)"<BR/><BR/>I am pretty sure that no matter who wins, I will still have my free speech rights as an American, will be able to gripe whenever I choose, and as such won't have forfeited anything.EnigmatiCorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00596092527748619763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33702937303723824642008-08-17T07:36:00.000-05:002008-08-17T07:36:00.000-05:00"The underlying problem isn't bad teachers or bad ..."The underlying problem isn't bad teachers or bad testing or bad schools, it's the socio-economic conditions that these kids come in with. The problems need to be fixed at their roots, not arbitrarily in the schools with, again, inane testing. It's a tall order that no president can fix in 4 or 8 years. Obama would fail, McCain will definitely fail, just as Bush has."<BR/><BR/>Socio-economic? Let's just go with socio. It is not at all clear to me that being poor makes one incapable of learning or that being poor immediately means a culture of disregard for education and discipline.<BR/><BR/>I believe the problem is primarily cultural. But changing a culture is extremely difficult, and takes a long time. We don't want to just say "to hell with the current kids" as we undertake a decades-long effort to remake the culture, especially since we do not have an agreed-upon and consistent plan for how to change it.<BR/><BR/>So what can be done in the meantime? How about saving the kids who can be saved, who are failing because the school they are in has faculty that doesn't care or is inept, or because the environment in the school is impossible? We can do that by getting them out of that failing school by closing it and busing them to the nearest school that isn't failing and as such has a capable faculty and has a better environment. This, as opposed to continually flushing money into a failed school.<BR/><BR/>In order to do this, though, you have to test in order to correctly identify which schools are failing.<BR/><BR/>Will it work? Has it worked? As you said, probably not, if one defines working as fixing all of the education problems in the inner cities, or truly 'leaving no child behind.' But then, we are never going to be able to do that as utopia doesn't exist. We can just help those who can be helped; nothing more. <BR/><BR/>And as long as the culture is what it is in the inner cities, the number we will be able to help is depressingly small.EnigmatiCorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00596092527748619763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-65226792751537100132008-08-17T07:25:00.000-05:002008-08-17T07:25:00.000-05:00"We can provide them with the opportunities, as yo..."We can provide them with the opportunities, as you say, but how many, if any of them, are able to transition to a "better school?" They are entrenched in their neighborhood, their culture...most of them don't even want to leave."<BR/><BR/>It is specifically because of their culture that so many of them cannot be educated. That culture needs to be blown up (metaphorically). It is incompatible with success in education. It is incompatible with success in life.EnigmatiCorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00596092527748619763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1320411645633628012008-08-17T04:48:00.000-05:002008-08-17T04:48:00.000-05:00I don't know what the solution is unfortunately, b...<I>I don't know what the solution is unfortunately, but punishing under performing schools bombarded with inane "testing" for students who can't even speak English doesn't seem to be the solution.</I><BR/><BR/>And just whose fault is it they can't speak English? <BR/><BR/>If they want to be a success in America one step on the ladder is to speak English. How hard can it be? Two and three year olds can do it. Kids who can't tie their shoe laces can speak English. <BR/><BR/>What is the answer? Vouchers. <BR/><BR/>OTOH maybe make education illegal. That seems to be a motivator for some. Another option: let kids drop out and work after grade school. To make that viable lower the minimum wage. <BR/><BR/>Or just accept the fact that some are interested in education and others are not. i.e. you can only teach those willing to learn. Otherwise you are wasting everybody's time.M. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37578603703181808342008-08-17T03:43:00.000-05:002008-08-17T03:43:00.000-05:00ZPS,"I wish we had a different candidate (not Hill...ZPS,<BR/><BR/>"<I>I wish we had a different candidate (not Hillary though).</I>"<BR/><BR/>Whoa! I never would have guessed you were in the Lieberman camp...Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22903787376569099542008-08-17T01:00:00.000-05:002008-08-17T01:00:00.000-05:00EnigmatiCore--I can give you one more reason not t...EnigmatiCore--I can give you one more reason not to sit out the election: If you do so, you symbolically forfeit the right to gripe about whatever happens the next four years. (And there may be a lot to gripe about!)<BR/><BR/>If you need another reason to justify voting against a Democrat, there's always this one: Their party platform is <A HREF="http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2008/08/democratic-platform-is-bad-for-men.html" REL="nofollow">bad for men</A>, and fathers in particular.Kevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01433235586096305061noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70646705889386805232008-08-17T00:50:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:50:00.000-05:00I think that C.S. Lewis offered a wise commentary ...<B>I think that C.S. Lewis offered a wise commentary on this point by allusion. God set the rules providing that sin must be attoned for with blood,</B><BR/><BR/>This was the answer, spoken more gently, that Anselm, circa 1100, gave in his equivalence of God to a feudal Lord using reason to support a reading of the Gospels. Abelard gave the response that Christ offered us an exemplary life to suggest that man, feeling guilty, was still loved; death was a point in life, not the point. Look up Abelard in <I>Constantine's Sword</I> by J. Carroll. In a sense, McCain's answers are, of the two, perhaps more in the spirit of Anselm, more in a love is natural spirit: 'make it easer to adopt,' don't define 'rich' and 'penalty' together or dis the wrong view and black, be in the party and dissident.a psychiatrist who learned from veteranshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00347313804041291393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-67270578279834847202008-08-17T00:28:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:28:00.000-05:00Re Obama and McCain hugging between segments. I su...Re Obama and McCain hugging between segments. I suspect John McCain really DOES like Sen. Obama. Hard to tell, as usual, what Obama really thinks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36397834953949146582008-08-17T00:26:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:26:00.000-05:00Obama on abortion ...“answering that question with...Obama on abortion ...<BR/><B>“answering that question with specificity … is above my pay grade.”</B><BR/><BR/>Well he got that right. Harry "the buck stops here" Truman he ain't.<BR/><BR/>This was equivalent to Obama voting “present” .. yet again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74518861898791392492008-08-17T00:24:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:24:00.000-05:00schools that suck are usually in lower class neigh...<I>schools that suck are usually in lower class neighborhoods, home to lower class, poor families. </I><BR/><BR/>The "usually" choice is significant. Here's a part of a weird thing about life: The good stuff doesn't always (often doesn't, and in many cases, just never does) drip down. The shitty stuff, on the other hand, almost invariably does.<BR/><BR/>I've observed that crap also floats up, by the way. FWIW, and all that, y'know.reader_iamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17352836883752091339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70421989047721249612008-08-17T00:14:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:14:00.000-05:00Zach -- First, O reiterate: the problem isn't goin...Zach -- First, O reiterate: the problem isn't going to be solved. Ever. The poor will always be with us, and their kids will always have meager social capital to work with. The issue, then, becomes what to do about it.<BR/><BR/>Here's what the current law does, in a nutshell:<BR/><BR/>1. Allow kids in failing schools to move to non-failing ones.<BR/><BR/>2. Rain money on the failing school for the kids who remain.<BR/><BR/>Let's say 10 percent of the kids get out. The other 90 percent get more resources and have fewer classmates. <BR/><BR/>To me, that's a tremendous outcome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-82749073960521365622008-08-17T00:13:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:13:00.000-05:00We're getting close to 200 comments here, so you m...We're getting close to 200 comments here, so you might want to move this discussion over to <A HREF="http://althouse.blogspot.com/2008/08/some-reactions-to-saddleback-forum.html" REL="nofollow">the newer post</A>.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-18203554174371911262008-08-17T00:10:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:10:00.000-05:00Sev- schools that suck are usually in lower class ...Sev- schools that suck are usually in lower class neighborhoods, home to lower class, poor families. These families do not have the wherewithal to send their kids off to better schools. We can provide them with the opportunities, as you say, but how many, if any of them, are able to transition to a "better school?" They are entrenched in their neighborhood, their culture...most of them don't even want to leave.<BR/><BR/>And it's not just because they are ESL kids. My best friend taught in South Central (she wanted to "make a difference") and the African-American kids there spoke English fine (if you can call it that) but were too busy with gangs and drugs. <BR/><BR/>The underlying problem isn't bad teachers or bad testing or bad schools, it's the socio-economic conditions that these kids come in with. The problems need to be fixed at their roots, not arbitrarily in the schools with, again, inane testing. It's a tall order that no president can fix in 4 or 8 years. Obama would fail, McCain will definitely fail, just as Bush has. <BR/><BR/>Oh, and Obama's answer about gay marriage was probably a lie. John McCain's was probably a lie too. These guys are both mostly rational, good guys and I doubt either of them give two shits about who can get married. They shouldn't even be asked about it.Zachary Sirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13144425123351503110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-47039241360485816332008-08-17T00:08:00.001-05:002008-08-17T00:08:00.001-05:00Do please note the word-choice of "observing."Do please note the word-choice of "observing."reader_iamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17352836883752091339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-36428239849769642002008-08-17T00:08:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:08:00.000-05:00But we are going to naturally align with Europe fo...But we are going to naturally align with Europe for a bunch of reasons:<BR/><BR/>1. These countries are our bigger trading partners overall (particularly when you exclude things, like oil, we'd rather not even trade).<BR/><BR/>2. These countries share our political, economic, and cultural heritage.<BR/><BR/>3. These countries share our form of government.<BR/><BR/>4. These countries, relatively, are not wicked bastions of corruption.<BR/><BR/>5. These countries are our military allies by treaty.<BR/><BR/>6. We have an important geopolitical military infrastructure in these countries.<BR/><BR/>That's just off the top of my head.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-60103948932813373822008-08-17T00:06:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:06:00.000-05:00Simon: It could be that Kagan's positing that noti...Simon: It could be that Kagan's positing that notion in real time right now because that's what he's observing. You know, in real time right now.reader_iamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17352836883752091339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86541946908882985802008-08-17T00:00:00.000-05:002008-08-17T00:00:00.000-05:00Fen - I don't mind getting into this but I'm reluc...Fen - I don't mind getting into this but I'm reluctant to hijack the thread; my concern is that we have no concerns adverse to Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union and several in common, and I worry that over the last decade, we're squandered a chance to make an alignment with them based on an outdated notion that they're the enemy. I found particularly baffling Kagan's piece earlier this week insofar as Kagan assumes (contrary to his own book) that if there is a power struggle between Russia and Europe we are naturally going to align with Europe.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10065798213115341398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-26938831216439959292008-08-16T23:53:00.000-05:002008-08-16T23:53:00.000-05:00And if they did, they'd just bring the test scores...<I>And if they did, they'd just bring the test scores down at the new school</I><BR/><BR/>Zach -- I appreciate that comment overall. However, the above statement really evinces an ignorance of market principles. <BR/><BR/>Yes. Of course. That's the idea. Schools with the resources to maximize are going to maximize those resources. Schools that suck are going to have fewer kids and get more resources.<BR/><BR/>Does it really matter if, say, some grade school goes on a macro level from the 83rd to the 77th percentile because it's taking on some kids from craptastic schools who have parents <I>who care enough about their kids to take the initiative to move their kids</I>?<BR/><BR/>It doesn't. This is the equivalent of football fans complaining because their school finished 15th instead of 12th. Big deal. <BR/><BR/>There are always, always going to be bad kids and bad schools. That's not going to change. Ever. The issue -- in a free society -- becomes how do we provide opportunities to those people nevertheless?<BR/><BR/>Thwacking the education establishment with money is not the answer. Nor is raising teacher pay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-87069668771768844692008-08-16T23:43:00.000-05:002008-08-16T23:43:00.000-05:00ZPS: What do you think about Obama's answer to the...ZPS: What do you think about Obama's answer to the gay marriage question?<BR/><BR/>Victoria: A source for your statement that <I>"Powell announced his official support for Obama last week"</I> would be appreciated. <BR/><BR/>Althouse: Your play-by-play was the best I've found. Thank you so much.Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03071928294799081845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-23021029539064657892008-08-16T23:37:00.000-05:002008-08-16T23:37:00.000-05:00I'm back. I was watching it at my mom's and just ...I'm back. I was watching it at my mom's and just got back to my house.<BR/><BR/>McCain "won" if we're designating a winner. He won because he engaged the audience and hit all the major topical talking points. He was sharp, and almost seemed like he was on speed! I haven't seen him this boisterous in a long time. Good job.<BR/><BR/>Obama played it safe and acted like it was just him and Warren sitting around being vague. Obama really needs to work on that. I wish we had a different candidate (not Hillary though). <BR/><BR/>McCain, like Bush, is wrong on education. "No Child Left Behind" has made it harder for public school teachers to actually, you know, "teach." Low income, messed up kids like my mom teaches (all of whom barely speak English in 1st grade) in Santa Ana can't just pack up and go to some all-white school half an hour away in Anaheim Hills. And if they did, they'd just bring the test scores down at the new school! <BR/><BR/>I don't know what the solution is unfortunately, but punishing under performing schools bombarded with inane "testing" for students who can't even speak English doesn't seem to be the solution. And blaming teachers or calling them "bad" is definitely not helping.Zachary Sirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13144425123351503110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37123885986319162652008-08-16T23:26:00.001-05:002008-08-16T23:26:00.001-05:00Obama didn't even have his political future on the...Obama didn't even have his political future on the line in 2003. If the Iraq War had been a success on the order of the 1991 Gulf War, he was no more likely to pay for his opposition in 2004 than Bill Clinton did in 1992. If that is in his top twenty of his toughest-ever decisions, he's never made a tough decision in his life.<BR/><BR/>And let's now quote Obama fully on the SC question; he said "an exper—" before switching to "strong". Well, we know what his honest answer would be, no? Hey, maybe we should demand an exper— strong President?<BR/><BR/>If deciding when life begins is above the pay grade of a President, then it's above the pay grade of the Supreme Court Justices he appoints, no? So didn't he just denounce <I>Roe v. Wade</I> by implication, saying the Justices decided something they had no business deciding? Or is he ducking a tough decision by saying it's merely above the pay grade of a Senator?Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05138730966226244399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-12124626379873460892008-08-16T23:26:00.000-05:002008-08-16T23:26:00.000-05:00TalkLeft is a fun place to lurk tonight. Obama fan...TalkLeft is a fun place to lurk tonight. Obama fans very unhappy, feel that this was a setup. McCain being branded as far-right extremist. McCain! Damn, these people are so insulated.Fenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16734571593963330215noreply@blogger.com