tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1801207316600561729..comments2024-03-28T20:14:01.928-05:00Comments on Althouse: "The Trump administration on Tuesday announced up to $12 billion in emergency relief for farmers hurt by the president’s trade war..."Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-37175400226616502018-07-26T17:13:04.219-05:002018-07-26T17:13:04.219-05:00becauseIdbefired,
I suggested you look up what...becauseIdbefired,<br /><i> I suggested you look up what's happening with SSDI as a way to see that the given isn't out of the ballpark. I find it hard to believe you did that, either.</i><br /><br />And I explained why SSDI and trade have nothing to do with each other. I really don't care if they appear to be correlated to you, because I know that you have to be disabled to get SSDI. Whatever you think of trade, nobody but you believes that increased trade somehow causes worker disabilities. The only plausible way that could happen is if the laid-off workers were mostly dishonest grifters who decided to rip off the system after they lost their jobs. I don't think that merits serious consideration.<br /><br />Your argument makes no sense, and you continue to repeat it even after it's been refuted. Either you're too dumb to understand the refutation, which I doubt, or you're a troll. In your original post you claimed that you had never seen a free trader address your argument, something I find hard to believe. Nothing I've said in my comments has been particularly deep or novel. Anyone who has been thinking about the issue even casually has almost certainly come across the arguments I am using, as some of them date back to Adam Smith in 1776. In truth, the trade issue in economics was mostly settled over 200 years ago by David Ricardo exposition of the theory of comparative advantage in 1817. The developments in trade theory since then are mostly extensions and elaborations of Ricardo's theory, which no one has been able to refute. Your apparent ignorance of this history while claiming to be very interested in trade indicates that you are, in fact, a troll.<br /><br />This will be my last comment in this thread.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11691315256618262530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-70290322364626095882018-07-26T06:46:15.250-05:002018-07-26T06:46:15.250-05:00Jeff @ 11:45
The fallacy is that you're assum...Jeff @ 11:45<br /><br />The fallacy is that you're assuming that the exported job is the only job that a worker can get. That the job market is zero sum. "Ultimately it's the taxpayers that pay for free trade."<br />Only if the government subsidizes jobs and commodities.Rustyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938263272237104128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85249834839579926912018-07-26T03:20:50.083-05:002018-07-26T03:20:50.083-05:00Jeff,
I asked you a hypothetical, and you chose n...Jeff,<br /><br />I asked you a hypothetical, and you chose not to answer the question, instead choosing to attack the given.<br /><br />I suggested you look up what's happening with SSDI as a way to see that the given isn't out of the ballpark. I find it hard to believe you did that, either.<br /><br />As a result, I find your opinion essentially worthless.becauseIdbefiredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08415435616663009513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4345404467286358142018-07-26T01:18:03.124-05:002018-07-26T01:18:03.124-05:00becauseIdbefired,
SSDI and trade have nothing to ...becauseIdbefired,<br /><br />SSDI and trade have nothing to do with each other. People who get laid off for any reason other than an actual disability don't get SSDI. If they do, it's fraud. <br /><br />You seem to be arguing that people laid off due to trade are somehow less honest than the rest of us and uniquely likely to fraudulently claim disability benefits. That's just bizarre.<br /><br />It's true that some people who lose jobs to trade end up taking jobs that pay less. Others end up getting paid more, sometimes after additional training. But I'm willing to concede that most of them get jobs that pay less than their previous job. In fact, I'd bet that's true of people who involuntarily lose their jobs for any reason. But taking a pay cut does not increase the taxes of your fellow citizens, nor does it usually qualify you for government benefits. You evidently think that happens very often, often enough to be a serious problem that warrants trade restrictions. I am not aware of any credible studies that show that. <br /><br />I do know that there have been huge numbers of jobs lost in manufacturing over the past several decades. But those jobs were mostly lost to automation, not trade. Manufacturing output is higher than ever. That's pretty much the definition of rising productivity: producing more with less labor. And it's a good thing, as ultimately rising productivity is what drives real wages up.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11691315256618262530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-3775020970073219252018-07-25T21:53:55.799-05:002018-07-25T21:53:55.799-05:00
Jeff, I gave you a scenario. Jobs go away and do...<br />Jeff, I gave you a scenario. Jobs go away and do not come back with similar paying jobs. You decided not to address the problem I posed, but decided instead to change the given.<br /><br />But, there is evidence the given is a real. Look at what is happening with SSDI, and get back to me.becauseIdbefiredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08415435616663009513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-74889362954219838862018-07-25T13:25:38.228-05:002018-07-25T13:25:38.228-05:00becauseIdbefired,
You're making some assumpti...becauseIdbefired,<br /><br />You're making some assumptions that aren't warranted. First off, why do you assume that worker A will remain unemployed? The very fact that he was employed and not fired for cause tells us that he is eminently employable, although he may find that he has to take a pay cut.<br /><br />Second, you're saying that "his" job was exported, as if he had a right to it. But that's not how a market economy works. You have the right to offer your services to potential employers, but they are under no obligation to accept your offer. If you and an employer can come to some mutual agreement on wages and duties, you will be employed. If not, you won't. What the trade restrictionists are saying is that somehow the government knows better than you and your employer what you should be paid.<br /><br />Think of this another way. Many fewer people are employed as secretaries these days than before personal computers became widespread. The reason is obvious: executives equipped with PCs and office software have much less need for secretaries than they used to. Did those secretaries all have rights to their jobs? Should executives be forbidden by law from using PCs and office software because such use diminishes the demand for secretaries? If not, why is the worker whose job can be done more cheaply overseas entitled to his job when the secretaries are not?<br /><br />In truth, many former secretaries are now employed in other pursuits. Some are making more money than they used to, some less. Most of us applaud the flexibility of market economies in adapting to changing circumstances. But for some reason, we take at face value the self-interested arguments of those who want trade restrictions, ethanol mandates, bank bailouts, agricultural prices supports, unnecessary professional licensing, etc.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11691315256618262530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29707854650224266352018-07-25T11:45:55.986-05:002018-07-25T11:45:55.986-05:00Jeff,
> Trade restrictions are just another wa...Jeff,<br /><br />> Trade restrictions are just another way the power of the government is used to benefit some people at the expense of others. <br /><br />One thing that bothers me about the "free trade" arguments is the following, and since you seem to be an expert, perhaps you can give me an answer.<br /><br />Let us take a country, call it the "US", which has taxation and redistribution. I've heard the redistribution can be quite high.<br /><br />Let us also say that a single job by worker "A" in the US is exported where it can be done more cheaply to some other country, but the job is not replaced with an equivalent paying job, such that the person who had the job now goes on welfare. Let's also assume the cost to the consumer is lesser.<br /><br />The free trade argument goes that the export of the job from the US is a good thing for consumers, provided it drops the cost of the good/service. But, let us see what happens in reality.<br /><br />Worker "A" no longer pays taxes.<br />Worker "A" now draws welfare, possibly SSDI (which draws on regressive social security taxes, and opens up a class based advantage).<br /><br />Ultimately, it is the taxpayers of the US who must make up the difference.<br /><br />It seems the simple equation of "free trade" is not so straight-forward in a system in which governments tax and redistribute.<br /><br />I have never seen these variables addressed by free traders.<br /><br />Will you now address these variables, in a way that proves, once and for all, that free trade in the practical world is always to the advantage of the consumer of a government? No using abstract utopias that don't exist.becauseIdbefiredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08415435616663009513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-7356959038947544942018-07-25T09:05:14.241-05:002018-07-25T09:05:14.241-05:00Do you really think we're all that stupid?
Kr...<i> Do you really think we're all that stupid?</i><br /><br />Krugman certainly is, and he has a Nobel prize.Gahriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795449308207016641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-91631110436663783932018-07-25T08:52:01.925-05:002018-07-25T08:52:01.925-05:00"Conservatives and libertarians are rightly s...<br />"Conservatives and libertarians are rightly suspicious of many exercises of government power. But it seems if the claimed motive is to damage foreigners or immigrants, abuses suddenly are A-OK. "<br /><br />I think in this case people are willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt. I think , as an economist, free trade isn't free trade if all the 'free' is only on one side. Trump is a good negotiator and I think this is one of his tactics.<br />We'll see.<br /><br />" Do you really think we're all that stupid?"<br />Posting tip. Don't be the straight man. Here goes.<br />Not all of you. Just you.Rustyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00938263272237104128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86737639997585425602018-07-25T08:15:46.113-05:002018-07-25T08:15:46.113-05:00Every trade restriction of every sort, be it a tar...Every trade restriction of every sort, be it a tariff, quota, or some other barrier, is an infringement on the liberty of the consenting adults whose freely chosen trades are being interfered with. Trade restrictions are just another way the power of the government is used to benefit some people at the expense of others. And like every other exercise of power by a government, it is often abused.<br /><br />Conservatives and libertarians are rightly suspicious of many exercises of government power. But it seems if the claimed motive is to damage foreigners or immigrants, abuses suddenly are A-OK. <br /><br />As a retired professional economist, I know that while there are a lot of economic policies that economists disagree on, free trade is not one of them. Except for a handful who work for the UAW or some other organization that directly benefits from trade restrictions, economists universally oppose trade restrictions of every sort. <br /><br />I don't mean to pick on Michael K., a regular here whose comments are often both informative and entertaining. But I wouldn't dream of telling him that I know more about any area of medicine than he does. He studied long and hard to get his MD, and I'm certain that he learned a lot of stuff that I don't know. Then he spent most of his life expanding and applying that knowledge. But like most of the commenters here, he evidently doesn't think economists like me learn much of anything during our years of study and work.<br /><br />Many of us have PhD's and have worked professionally in the field for decades. Almost certainly, we are at least as smart as the commenters on this blog, and almost certainly we have thought longer and harder about these issues than you have. Do you really think we haven't considered the arguments you are making? Do you really think we're all that stupid?Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11691315256618262530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-8871498546349692622018-07-25T06:36:10.709-05:002018-07-25T06:36:10.709-05:00You might enjoy reading this thread by @themarkets...You might enjoy reading this <a href="https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1021864550163857408.html" rel="nofollow">thread by @themarketswork</a>Lauderdale Vethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04012723196788850915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-28364678702041209652018-07-25T02:29:41.616-05:002018-07-25T02:29:41.616-05:00What do Yahoo, Amazon, Uber, Google, and Facebook ...What do Yahoo, Amazon, Uber, Google, and Facebook all have in common? They are titans of American industry. And none has a presence in China.<br /><br />On the other hand, the EU thinks it has rights to a percentage of World Wide revenues from Google, using anti-trust as the excuse.<br /><br />https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/10/eu-hits-alphabet-google-with-android-antitrust-fine.htmlbecauseIdbefiredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08415435616663009513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58630504291145948372018-07-24T23:40:22.361-05:002018-07-24T23:40:22.361-05:00Is this $12 billion of “new money” or the repurpos...Is this $12 billion of “new money” or the repurposing of money that was already earmarked to be pissed away on some less worthy risk-shifting scheme intended to benefit farmers?Wincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15002449963597087316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-61064776852598350892018-07-24T23:39:27.953-05:002018-07-24T23:39:27.953-05:00I think the Republican Congress should pass Glenn ...I think the Republican Congress should pass Glenn Reynolds' proposal that the Supreme Court be increased to 59 Justices: the present 9 nominated by the President, and an additional 50 proposed by each of the 50 state governors. (All would be confirmed by the Senate.)Michael McNeilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848373029958280894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-34687019182730379532018-07-24T23:18:49.786-05:002018-07-24T23:18:49.786-05:00Trump is an arrogant ignoramus on par with Benito ...Trump is an arrogant ignoramus on par with Benito Mussolini. His theme was to restore the grandeur of the Roman Empire, i.e., Make Italy Great Again. Instead, his country was wrecked in WWII. Mussolini and his mistress were strung up in the streets by partisans. Let's hope that Trump and the GOP suffer the same ignominious fate. Trump's 18 golf courses can be made with little effort into public courses, or converted into wildlife sanctuaries. Trump's tax breaks for the rich, and his fiddling with the economy while "Rome burns," may plunge the world into a Second Great Depression. A Third World War that will wipe life off the planet for 10,000 years could easily be the end result of Trump's tiny hands and big mouth. The deplorable Trumptards must share the blame for Trumpism, and his lack of principle, and his acts of folly. When the GOP is eliminated, and a sane administration takes the reigns of power, the Supreme Court should be increased to 18 justices to dilute the impact of Trumps stacking of the Supreme Court with right-wing hacks.Trumpithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02252672877713167746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-78853140253336342552018-07-24T23:12:48.423-05:002018-07-24T23:12:48.423-05:00Fiat money has no intrinsic value other the full f...Fiat money has no intrinsic value other the full faith and credit of the suckers who bail out the banks. Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01048255624944551506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-8291814439104087702018-07-24T22:41:39.580-05:002018-07-24T22:41:39.580-05:00I am not fond of this move. I hope it is a tempora...I am not fond of this move. I hope it is a temporary stopgap that allows Trump to fix our trading imbalances.<br /><br />He does things in a different way. It takes some getting used to and a leap of faith for this classically liberal/conservative libertarian.<br /><br />The proof will be in the results.Francisco Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06352134756750456783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16671721083441807022018-07-24T22:37:07.146-05:002018-07-24T22:37:07.146-05:00They buy it also because they might decide to beco...<i>They buy it also because they might decide to become immigrants all of a sudden if things go south in China. </i><br /><br />I think this is why I see so many Chinese nationals joining the US Army.<br /><br />They have patents in China. They want citizenship and, unlike the left's favorite illegals, they are doing it legally.<br /><br />I don't think they are interested in espionage since they are privates.<br /><br />I think parents are encouraging them for doubts about China long term.Michael Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18127450762129879267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-64424750234907583522018-07-24T22:34:01.705-05:002018-07-24T22:34:01.705-05:00"Money has no intrinsic value except as a med..."Money has no intrinsic value except as a medium of exchange. An accounting tool to reduce everything to a single common denominator."<br /><br />Soros laughs<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17060639162688328166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-32128986372644489962018-07-24T22:29:37.371-05:002018-07-24T22:29:37.371-05:00"Money has no intrinsic value except as a med..."Money has no intrinsic value except as a medium of exchange. "<br /><br />So you have "full faith and credit" Venezuela's currency?D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17060639162688328166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-85207796292192000072018-07-24T22:29:21.907-05:002018-07-24T22:29:21.907-05:00Blogger johnhenry100 said...
Blogger D. said....Blogger johnhenry100 said...<br /><br /> Blogger D. said...<br /><br /><br /><br /> Question: Should the USA dollar be the currency of the world?<br /><br /> Other than national pride/bragging rights/branding, what difference does it make whether it is or not?<br /><br /> We don't trade for dollars, we trade goods and services. 100 microwave ovens for 2 tons of steel. We do it personally and we do it internationally.<br /><br /> It makes little difference whether the deal is denominated in rubles, rupees, dollars or Euros.<br /><br /> Money has no intrinsic value except as a medium of exchange. An accounting tool to reduce everything to a single common denominator.<br /><br />That function has value by making transactions easier but the money in and of itself has no value. You can't eat it, you can't write on it, you can't even, comfortably, wipe your ass with it. <br /><br />john Henry<br /><br /> John HenryJohn henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13529920006532904660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-129946732489059212018-07-24T22:26:24.547-05:002018-07-24T22:26:24.547-05:00"I agree but what does this have to do with t..."I agree but what does this have to do with trade deficits and whether or not they can exist?<br /><br />John Henry"<br /><br /><br />How money does the USA gov't send to Chicagoland? How much does USA gov't get back?<br />D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17060639162688328166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-47232219986331630212018-07-24T22:26:13.260-05:002018-07-24T22:26:13.260-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.John henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13529920006532904660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-49853031936321744772018-07-24T22:22:03.367-05:002018-07-24T22:22:03.367-05:00"Question: Is this a good thing for the US? W..."Question: Is this a good thing for the US? Why or why not?"<br /><br />"Question: Is a $22 trillion USA debt a good thing for the US? Why or why not?"D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17060639162688328166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-11203394308984743922018-07-24T22:20:34.108-05:002018-07-24T22:20:34.108-05:00Blogger D. said...
Maybe. But I would sugg... Blogger D. said...<br /><br /> <br /> <i> Maybe. But I would suggest that "make work" projects are commie endeavors. ymmv.</i><br /><br />I agree but what does this have to do with trade deficits and whether or not they can exist?<br /><br />John Henry<br /><br />John henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13529920006532904660noreply@blogger.com