tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post1456786156586516094..comments2024-03-28T20:11:30.837-05:00Comments on Althouse: Robert S. McNamara, dead at 93.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-73181110723285782292009-07-06T22:49:18.819-05:002009-07-06T22:49:18.819-05:00While not an expert and not willing to debate it i...While not an expert and not willing to debate it it here, I have read over 360 books on all angles of political history on the "Vietnam Conflict". I have done so reading alongside thousands of news accounts on the Vietnam Conflict. It began as a hobby in 1983. I wanted to know why the Untied States really screwed up this one, and I had never believed in it that war. But all my reading and additionally, talks with some 3 dozen veterans leads me to believe this:<br /><br />The United States could have won militarily in Vietnam by late 1972 if it had wanted to, and at the cost of <b>at least 25%</b> less American lives and casualties than were actually lost because of the loss of political will.<br /><br />The Vietnamese knew that they could not beat us militarily - they said so several times officially. They knew they just had to break the will of the American people.<br /><br />How sad for both the Vietnamese and the Americans who fought there. How shameful for the anti-war Americans (me among them) who placed selfish politics over the lives of the Vietnamese and American troops, and over the honor of the United States. Our intstitutions - among them the media led by one self-hating Jew anti-war Sulzberger - have suffered for the selfishness of that time and done damage to this nation from which we will probably never fully recover.<br /><br />That's my 2 cents.Chasehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10818855976358768057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-15223961996971698712009-07-06T22:36:23.620-05:002009-07-06T22:36:23.620-05:00Good.Good.TmjUtahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07479506083401061662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-14236546657827582412009-07-06T20:47:11.546-05:002009-07-06T20:47:11.546-05:00One of my dad's friends, who retired a Marine ...One of my dad's friends, who retired a Marine LtGen, held the charts when the Joint Chiefs briefed LBJ on their strategy to take the war to the North in 65. LBJ ripped them a new one. He was too afraid that China would intervene as they had in Korea. He just wanted to not lose, as opposed to winning.<br /><br />Westmoreland's strategy was a lot like Abizaid's in Iraq, his more successful successor Abrams' was a lot like Petraeus'.Ralph Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915708905660273961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-44175180701473455702009-07-06T19:54:31.186-05:002009-07-06T19:54:31.186-05:00"Nothing he did, none of the tools at his com..."Nothing he did, none of the tools at his command — the power of American weapons, the forces of technology and logic, or the strength of American soldiers — could stop the armies of North Vietnam and their South Vietnamese allies, the Vietcong."<br /><br />After 40 years can we please stop peddling that utter falsehood. We could and did stop the North Vietnamese army and the Vietcong dead in their tracks in 1968. Tet was a battlefield disaster for the NVA. The 1972 Christmas bombing of Hanoi brought them crawling back to the negotiating table. By the time the troops came home Creighton Abrams had essentially won the guerilla war. Then we just left the poor South Vietnamese on their own to get overrun when it was clear we'd lost the will to invervene again.<br /><br />The only things that failed in Vietnam were American political will, and Sec. McNamara's belief that you could manage an army rather lead it.Richard Faginhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578733720191838363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-92168015794326213152009-07-06T19:45:46.932-05:002009-07-06T19:45:46.932-05:00In the April 12, 1995, New York TIMES editorial, H...In the April 12, 1995, New York TIMES editorial, Howell Raines wrote, " Mr. McNamara must not escape the lasting moral condemnation of his countrymen." Raines cited " wasting lives atrociously", that " these were men who in the full hubristic glow of their power would not listen to logical warning or ethical appeal." <br />For today;<br />Robert McNamara is dead - De mortuis nil nisi bonum. <br /><br />Howell Raines still lives. <br /><br />The TIMES re-published that editorial today on its web site. I would feel better about that condemnation if the TIMES had equally condemned LBJ - ever.<br /><br />Perhaps it is instructive to examine the actions of Howell Raines in the Jason Blair series of N Y TIMES printed falsehoods. Repeatedly warned by others, Raines pushed the plagiaristic career of Jason Blair, when even a pre-hiring check of credentials would have exposed the lie of having graduated from The University of Maryland. You might say that Howell Raines, a proponent of affirmative action and diversity at any cost, basked in his own " full hubristic glow ... would not listen to logical warning or ethical appeal."<br /><br />The character flaws are similar - but Raines will never realize it.LutherMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12509295261892903427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52716411632503591282009-07-06T19:39:47.574-05:002009-07-06T19:39:47.574-05:00Alex,
Because a large part of our security was ba...Alex,<br /><br />Because a large part of our security was based on our word being worth believing in. If our word was no good, then why would anyone believe in what we said we would do and why would anyone depend on our being faithful. Without that then our markets would disappear, our threat to keep the peace anywhere in the world would be gone, our allies could not depend on our backing them up, and our enemies could treat us as a paper tiger. Remember 9/11? That was because our word was thought of as being that of a paper tiger so Al Qaeda thought they could attack with impunity.dickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08976498133597991337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-55406894340082558272009-07-06T19:36:08.980-05:002009-07-06T19:36:08.980-05:00I see 3 possible scenarios in Vietnam:
1)Stay ou...I see 3 possible scenarios in Vietnam:<br /> <br />1)Stay out - resulting in the usual communist purge costing at least 1 million lives, and resulting in another failed communist economy.<br /><br />2) Fight hard and fast and win - less than 1 million killed reduced US casualties resulting in a free market democracy similar to South Korea or Taiwan.<br /><br />3) Fight half-hearted and lose. High US casualties, a million die from war and then over a million from the purge and still get a failed communist state.<br /><br />I respect our going, but I despise our losing. The decision to go to war should be done democratically, but fighting should be left to warriors. It should be swift and horrible so as never to be considered a game worth playing at.<br /><br />If you simply imagine history so that we win in Vietnam, it becomes clear how important that goal was. Most of the negatives of Vietnam are avoided by a fast hard fight that wins. It is unfathomable that this was not possible by the U.S. at that time militarily.<br /><br />Imagine Iraq today if we had withdrawn troops in 2007. The negatives from that are astounding compared to what Obama is lucky enough to be faced with today. Afghanistan would be unwinable, and the calls for democracy that we are seeing and will see more of in the M.E. would never have happened. Not to mention the horror in Iraq that would have occurred and be ongoing today.<br /><br />We ignore our blessings like kids unwrapping Christmas gifts and asking what's nextbagoh20https://www.blogger.com/profile/10915174575358413637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-19735840866986911892009-07-06T19:21:12.179-05:002009-07-06T19:21:12.179-05:00At this hour of Mr. McNamara's death I direct ...At this hour of Mr. McNamara's death I direct your attention to an elegy for President Kennedy:<br /><a href="http://www.jameyhecht.com/Site/HOME.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"> Limousine, Midnight Blue</a> in which the following lines occur: <br /><br />"Before you tapped him / for Defense, McNamara ran Ford Motor Co., / and if we"re lucky, he"s got more bold new ideas.:"<br /><br />...as well as these lines:<br /><br />"Ask not what the tolling bell can do for you, / ask what it matters in eternity. / Consider the dying stars, / how they bring unfinished business to a perfect end."<br /><br />For 8 sample poems, each with its own little video, see the site above. Thank you.Jamey Hechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00739823758056342447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-57101218603790823942009-07-06T16:06:17.501-05:002009-07-06T16:06:17.501-05:00Alex...It was no threat, except for a believed nee...Alex...It was no threat, except for a believed need to maintain the appearance that the USA would always fight when a Soviet Client state attacked its neighbors. Both Korea and Viet Nam were costly because they were wars requiring the goal to be a Draw. If we won on the ground, then the Communists in China and in Russia would escalate back including Thermo-nuclear forces. The best strategy was to ignore the VietNamese guerillas who already had a 35 year headstart on that war.traditionalguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05706120413005530014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-20004220134176897312009-07-06T15:43:52.407-05:002009-07-06T15:43:52.407-05:00BTW, how was Vietnam becoming Communist a threat t...BTW, how was Vietnam becoming Communist a threat to the USA, thousands of miles away separated by the vast Pacific Ocean and protected by the US Navy?Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-33869077937390086302009-07-06T15:41:51.003-05:002009-07-06T15:41:51.003-05:00The American military loves George W. Bush, as wit...The American military loves George W. Bush, as witnessed by how many voted for in 2004! I challenge anyone to deny this.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11205752419540502278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-52069525658728858282009-07-06T15:13:56.594-05:002009-07-06T15:13:56.594-05:00NKVD said...
Nixon could have pulled out of Viet ...<i>NKVD said... <br />Nixon could have pulled out of Viet Nam in '69 with the same results as he got in '74. All those lives lost on his watch were for nothing. Fuck Nixon. And Kissinger and the rest of those guys who mismanaged that war. Too many good people were lost for no particular reason.</i><br /><br />Nope, because Nixon was working in strategic realities...far larger than NKVDs parachial focus.<br /><br />Had we run like the French, or quit like the Belgians did at the sight of a German tank when Nixon took office - the Cold War would likely have ended on American weakness and fear of taking casualties in any amount.<br /><br />No detente. No end to vast WMD arsenal buildups. No end to nerve gas and germ war in war. No volunteer Army. NATO dissolves.No China Pact. The Domino theory in Asia likely would have come true.<br /><br />Nixon did what he had to do. <br /><br />NKVD is still yet more testimony to the indulgence of the Boomers, their endless pissing and moaning. After '69, by mid -1971, Nixon drawdown lost less guys each year than we lost in a typical week in WWII or Korea.<br /><br />Pity they had to die to help eventually defeat the Soviets, but all part of the Cold War threat...you couldn't separate Vietnam out as a "stand alone". Don't blame Nixon for confronting the reality of a dangerous Communist threat that managed in it's existence to kill more people than the Nazis did.Cedarfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00602418702398818596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-63614602979739865552009-07-06T15:12:58.740-05:002009-07-06T15:12:58.740-05:00Nothing he did, none of the tools at his command —...<i>Nothing he did, none of the tools at his command — the power of American weapons, the forces of technology and logic or the strength of American soldiers — could stop the armies of North Vietnam. </i><br /><br />Yeah, well, except that after he got booted out the North Vietnamese armies were quite effectively stopped for as long as Congress was willing to fund South Vietnam's air force.<br /><br />So, it's not that the "strength of American soldiers" or "technology or logic" couldn't ... it's that <i>his tactics</i> couldn't. The war was, militarily, utterly winnable, and <i>was won</i>*.<br /><br />(* I say won, because in 1973, when the US left, the North Vietnamese were unable to fight in South Vietnam and had been pushed entirely out of the country. They weren't able to <i>push back</i> effectively even without the US in South Vietnam until Congress threw South Vietnam to the wolves by cutting funding for their air force and removing all credibility behind US threats of retaliation for breaking the Paris Accords.<br /><br />The Vietnam War was lost in Congress, not the battlefield.)Sigivaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16152366541957466049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-22416576743565861662009-07-06T14:42:44.479-05:002009-07-06T14:42:44.479-05:00Kirk Parker said...
Cedarford,
"Likely no ...Kirk Parker said... <br /><br /><i>Cedarford,<br /><br />"Likely no Afghanistan and the start of the radical Islamists..<br /><br />You need to get out more. Certainly Afghanistan provided a big boost in credibility to a certain branch of Islamist, but you can't really think that's where they started, can you?<br /><br />You might want to check out Qutb, Wahhab himself, or others going all the way back to Ibn Taymiyyah</i>.<br /><br />Thanks for mentioning as I had my doubts about the validity the statement.. I thought the movement was underway in Turkey in the 1920's.bearbeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04770545814913465196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-39606748359648982412009-07-06T14:36:17.243-05:002009-07-06T14:36:17.243-05:00This thread is most elucidating.This thread is most elucidating.Chip Ahoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597726289890879627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-6171601730873169512009-07-06T14:34:46.125-05:002009-07-06T14:34:46.125-05:00the domino theory was in no way borne out. the dom...the domino theory was in no way borne out. the domino theory, at least as spelled out by mcnamara, envisioned all of southeast asia, including indonesia, malaysia, and even india, falling under communist sway. frankly, it was idiotic, even at the time.The Exaltedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18030346881185443267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-16864897644694500312009-07-06T14:33:16.971-05:002009-07-06T14:33:16.971-05:00"Nothing he did, could stop the armies of Nor..."Nothing he did, could stop the armies of North Vietnam."<br /><br />I guess he couldn't do much.<br /><br />The war was mismanaged. It shouldn't have been run from DC. Should have been fought more aggressively.<br /><br />Minor points forgotten:<br /><br />It was authorized.<br /><br />It was popular (initially).<br /><br />It wasn't "lost". The post-Watergate newly-pacifist Democrat Congress refused aid after the North conducted a conventional invasion of the South in violation of its treaty.<br /><br />It's always moral to fight commie or fascist dictators. Such people can morally be killed at any time w/o particular justification. <br /><br />Now it can be done better or worse and you may not want to do it at any given time but you always have the moral right to do it.<br /><br />Cuba, North Korea, Iran. Dead meat whenever you like. No moral problems. <br /><br />Those who doubt the above countenance slavery and are not worthy of the heritage of free men.Duncanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05675060030048648230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-68787715717900719952009-07-06T14:32:00.597-05:002009-07-06T14:32:00.597-05:00"He concluded well before leaving the Pentago..."He concluded well before leaving the Pentagon that the war was futile, but he did not share that insight with the public until late in life."<br /><br />He should have gotten out of the Pentagon as soon as he came to this (wrong) conclusion.<br /><br />Wrong? How so? 1. We never even tried to invade the North. How can you know a war is unwinnable when you don't even try for better than a draw?<br /><br />2. By 1970 the war was pretty much won. The insurgency was destroyed by Gen. Abrams' method of clearing and holding areas. As long as we had air and sea power nearby the North would never have been able to successfully invade the South. In fact, they only were able to do so because we didn't lift a finger to help the South when (in violation of the peace treaty) the North attacked.dbphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00457585811847604584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4697165352966757662009-07-06T14:22:45.546-05:002009-07-06T14:22:45.546-05:00I just watched the film clip with McNamara discuss...I just watched the film clip with McNamara discussing the immorality of war and, in a neat bit of jujitsu, throwing much of the blame on Curtis Lemay. An objection leaps to mind: The overlords of Japan never once, prior to the A bomb, discussed the fatalities that were being inflicted on the civilian Japanese population. To their mind, the people of Japan existed to safeguard the honor of the Japanese military, not the other way around. They knew the war was lost and kept on. The largest share of the disgrace belongs to Japan....Ditto with Vietnam. The losses we suffered were a fraction compared to those we inflicted on the Vietnamese. And what do the Vietnamese have to show for it? The same kind of corrupt crony capitalism that Diem was in charge of before the war......McNamara talks about proportionality in war. Weren't the Japanese and the Vietnamese the ones who did not have their cost accounting procedures in order? Also a disproportionate response is an effective weapon. If some dirty bomb with no return address goes off in New York or Tel Aviv, I would wish the good citizens of Teheran and Mecca to worry and be very afraid that Israel or the US would respond in a disproportionate, totally unjustified way. Such madness considerably diminishes the chance of a dirty bomb going off.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07837540030934495651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-4829047976337875182009-07-06T14:22:09.684-05:002009-07-06T14:22:09.684-05:00Nixon could have pulled out of Viet Nam in '69...Nixon could have pulled out of Viet Nam in '69 with the same results as he got in '74. All those lives lost on his watch were for nothing. Fuck Nixon. And Kissinger and the rest of those guys who mismanaged that war. Too many good people were lost for no particular reason.The Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05354536924604187137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-89342963679743116392009-07-06T14:05:35.098-05:002009-07-06T14:05:35.098-05:00Vietnam was McNamara's nightmare?
Give me a f...Vietnam was McNamara's nightmare?<br /><br />Give me a fucking break.<br /><br />It was the country's nightmare, and the soldier's nightmare. It was the nightmare of my friend Steve Drake, an infantry Lieutenant who fought severely wounded for hours and died saving dozens of his men in a horrific ambush.<br /><br />McNamara did not deserve to have it called his nightmare. It was a nightmare he imposed on others.<br /><br />Finally, it was not McNamara's war. The war belongs to President's Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon (especially the former two) and to the United States Congress, which acquiesced in an immoral war, a losing military strategy and at the end forced a craven desertion of Vietnamese men and women who helped us.<br /><br />Then, in the most brutal admission of all, McNamara reveals in his memoir that he had "doubts" all along about the war but did not express them when he was in office.<br /><br />Disgust. Outrage. I'm not quite an old man now, but I'm working on it. Fate has allowed me to get old (unlike Steve and nearly 60,000 other Americans who died for this horridly conceived and conducted war.)<br /><br />Do not let Bob McNamara pass without remembering this outrage. And do not pin the entire horrid mess just on him.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17424384180201600935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-86758278618308808772009-07-06T14:04:31.811-05:002009-07-06T14:04:31.811-05:00I wonder if we'll get a posthumous memoir at s...I wonder if we'll get a posthumous memoir at some point. I got the impression watching <i>Fog of War</i> that he wanted to go further.Duncan Cooksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00670976337437990284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-58770168081208682622009-07-06T14:03:40.124-05:002009-07-06T14:03:40.124-05:00Carter - Gets not enough credit for beginning rebu...<i>Carter - Gets not enough credit for beginning rebuilding of forces</i><br /><br />I was in the military during the Carter years. He didn't do a damned thing to rebuild the military. It was awful. He was a terrible President and Commander-in-chief.<br /><br /><i>I wouldn't go that far. His decisions turned out to wrong, but seemed reasonable enough at the time and it's unlikely that someone else could have done better.</i><br /><br />They never seemed reasonable to anyone who knew anything about the military. McNamara's policies were stupid and caused a lot of needless deaths.<br /><br />As one Ford exec was quoted saying to a General about McNamara, "Our gain is your loss." They were happy to get rid of the dunce.Larry Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07005320430740976182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-46550616609514041982009-07-06T13:47:05.640-05:002009-07-06T13:47:05.640-05:00Cedarford,
"Likely no Afghanistan and the st...Cedarford,<br /><br />"<i>Likely no Afghanistan and the start of the radical Islamists..</i><br /><br />You need to get out more. Certainly Afghanistan provided a big boost in credibility to a certain branch of Islamist, but you can't really think that's where they started, can you?<br /><br />You might want to check out Qutb, Wahhab himself, or others going all the way back to Ibn Taymiyyah.Kirk Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05921711310191924997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-29392133575694674382009-07-06T13:39:50.772-05:002009-07-06T13:39:50.772-05:00If he had died 50 years earlier there are many peo...<i>If he had died 50 years earlier there are many people who would still be alive today</i>.<br /><br />I wouldn't go that far. His decisions turned out to wrong, but seemed reasonable enough at the time and it's unlikely that someone else could have done better. <br /><br />The decision to support South Vietnam militarily was above his pay grade and the war would have happened with or without McNamara.Automatic_Wing https://www.blogger.com/profile/10174899673368042634noreply@blogger.com