tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post114669651779304655..comments2024-03-28T17:12:36.615-05:00Comments on Althouse: Banning laptops in the law school classroom.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-69171560472150682832011-09-03T16:59:01.131-05:002011-09-03T16:59:01.131-05:00If we are concerned about being unduly paternalist...If we are concerned about being unduly paternalistic, we should not have a policy requiring students to own computers in the first place. If students read a newspaper or spoke quietly on the phone during class, they would be asked to stop. Surfing the Internet and checking emails is the exact same thing. This is an absolute no brained and the fluffy reasons offered to justify laptop use are unrealistic and insulting to instructors that are actually trying to engage with their students.rwdomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15632136711724934683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146813590480878972006-05-05T02:19:00.000-05:002006-05-05T02:19:00.000-05:00It's been my experience that classes with a partic...It's been my experience that classes with a participation component in the grade are awful. Instructors tend to be way too timid in doing quality control.aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11511239246957960529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146801417876755622006-05-04T22:56:00.000-05:002006-05-04T22:56:00.000-05:00Professors are there to provide entertainment. St...Professors are there to provide entertainment. Students learn on their own, or not. The Professor is there to put on a show.<BR/><BR/>I have a theory.<BR/><BR/>Professors/lecturers are all, actually, failed, stage actors. Their just on the stage of a different sort: academia. But you're still performing.<BR/><BR/>It's all performance art.<BR/><BR/>I get the attention of those students, real quick.<BR/><BR/>Guilt has it's uses. <BR/><BR/>I'd go on a crying jag or two. Tell them I don't have the emotional stability to withstand their divided attention. I simply cannot abide it! And, with that I'd simply fall to the floor in a nervous breakdown. Have a daily meltdown, if that's what it takes to get their attention.<BR/><BR/>And, if that doesn't work, use bribery. Bake cookies.<BR/><BR/>A startling confession. A shocking revelatiion. Daily....if that's what it takes. Bare your soul. They'll get their nose out of their laptops, I assure you.<BR/><BR/>And, think of all the extra traffice you'll get on your blog!<BR/><BR/>Peace, MaxineMaxine Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164122931399241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146779112919317822006-05-04T16:45:00.000-05:002006-05-04T16:45:00.000-05:00In California, you can take the Bar without ever s...In California, you can take the Bar without ever setting foot in a law school.<BR/><BR/>Maybe that's the solution.<BR/><BR/>Oooops. Sorry Ann.<BR/><BR/>Peace, MaxineMaxine Weisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18164122931399241972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146762907483645212006-05-04T12:15:00.000-05:002006-05-04T12:15:00.000-05:00John (classic): Indeed! Voluntary participation is...John (classic): Indeed! Voluntary participation is not a softhearted scheme. It's demanding. Autonomy is difficult -- one of the reasons why it's better.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146759799092026322006-05-04T11:23:00.000-05:002006-05-04T11:23:00.000-05:00Ann said:"To make voluntary participation work, es...Ann said:<BR/>"To make voluntary participation work, especially in a large class, you have to disqualify students who have already spoken. For example, you can say no one speaks twice until everyone has spoken once."<BR/><BR/><BR/>(in a Madeline Kahn voice) <BR/>Vill you voluntarily participate or must we shove the waterboard under again?john(classic)https://www.blogger.com/profile/05804517855913600116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146753386416276172006-05-04T09:36:00.000-05:002006-05-04T09:36:00.000-05:00Ann - I was referring to Civ Pro I; I ought to hav...Ann - I was referring to Civ Pro I; I ought to have been more specific there. From what I understand (I haven't taken Civ Pro II yet) there's a lot more to discuss in it than there is in Civ Pro I. <BR/><BR/>I like what my bankruptcy, tax, and trusts and estates professors did with their classes this year. They taught using a ton of practice questions, which gave them something to call on students about. Otherwise, those classes are so heavily rule-based that there would be less to discuss than in the more academic classes like Con law. That way, everybody in the class was involved, not every class, but often enough to keep their heads in the game. I really liked it.Wade Garretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02427231454565149921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146745973903478692006-05-04T07:32:00.000-05:002006-05-04T07:32:00.000-05:00Loafing Oaf: To make voluntary participation work,...Loafing Oaf: To make voluntary participation work, especially in a large class, you have to disqualify students who have already spoken. For example, you can say no one speaks twice until everyone has spoken once. You could renew that rule every day or, in a large class, every week. At some point there will be a few people who haven't participated yet, and you just have to call on them, but most students, seeing that will happen soon enough, find a spot where they can participate. I agree that it's crucial to keep the class from being dominated by a small group of enthusiastic speakers.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146745192420132942006-05-04T07:19:00.000-05:002006-05-04T07:19:00.000-05:00That means that a person who failed to participate...<I> That means that a person who failed to participate will end up with a grade a step lower than he would have had on the written exam alone. And, by the way, I go almost entirely with volunteers in class, and students do participate.</I><BR/><BR/>Is this based on quantity of participation or quality? Because I can recall a few students in some of my classes who never shut up and that could be pretty annoying.LoafingOafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17398399168775034527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146744746317966592006-05-04T07:12:00.000-05:002006-05-04T07:12:00.000-05:00Terry: "Civil Procedure, for instance, is one of t...Terry: "Civil Procedure, for instance, is one of the most important courses one takes in law school, but there is little to discuss. "<BR/><BR/>Are you talking about CivPro2? (A course I teach.) There are tons of interesting issues to talk about in my Civpro2 class.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146744585068100332006-05-04T07:09:00.000-05:002006-05-04T07:09:00.000-05:00Terry: "In my experience, there's not much of a re...Terry: "In my experience, there's not much of a relation between the actual classes one attends in law school and the final exam. In every class, there are people who get good grades and don't come to more than a couple of classes over the course of the semester. Most exams are based on the reading, with no midterm, no participation grade, no group assignments, etc. Exams are graded anonymously. If you do a really good job on the reading, and take notes on the reading, and ask an student who took it the previous year for help with the tricky parts, you can do very well on exams -- some people at the top of the class rankings here at the UW law school rarely go to class."<BR/><BR/>Terry, I think it's the teacher's job to structure things so that doesn't work. I'd like to think the students you describe are afraid to take my classes. The number 1 thing to do is to have a seating chart and to reward participation. Another thing is to make the exam very much about what was covered in class that semester, especially things that were not covered in previous semesters.<BR/><BR/>But it will always be the case that some students are better at writing good answers to questions, and this will help them cover some other shortcomings.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146744207324781162006-05-04T07:03:00.001-05:002006-05-04T07:03:00.001-05:00Terry said: In my experience, there's not much of ...Terry said: <I>In my experience, there's not much of a relation between the actual classes one attends in law school and the final exam. In every class, there are people who get good grades and don't come to more than a couple of classes over the course of the semester.</I><BR/><BR/>Wow, at my law school they were pretty strict about attendance in most classes. Generally, if you missed more than 4 in a semester you couldn't sit for the exam. (Things were a little looser after the first year, but I only had one professor where you could get away with not showing up on a regular basis.) <BR/><BR/>As far as the laptop controversy, it's just another example of how a lot of law professors need to chill out. <BR/><BR/>I did have one professor who had us take our exams on laptops, and I have to say I totally HATED that. But probably because I wasn't used to it. I was all stressed out that I'd save my answers wrong or something.LoafingOafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17398399168775034527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146744187205123512006-05-04T07:03:00.000-05:002006-05-04T07:03:00.000-05:00Joe Baby said..."One of our classrooms has a camer...Joe Baby said..."One of our classrooms has a camera at the back, controllable by the professor at the workstation in front of the room, and the camera can pan/zoom to see the screens of approx. 50% of the room."<BR/><BR/>I wonder if the teachers pontificate about government surveillance in that room. You must pay attention to me while I extol the rights of the individual!Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146743981183973782006-05-04T06:59:00.000-05:002006-05-04T06:59:00.000-05:00Danny said..."It seems like the best solution woul...Danny said..."It seems like the best solution would be for the professor to state at the beginning of the semester, 'There will be no instant messaging or surfing the web during class'. Then the professor needs only to walk the ailes from time to time throughout the year while lecturing, casually chastising any students who are breaking the rule. Do it in a way that makes the student feel embarassed and ashamed of their actions. Call on this student repeatedly and make them feel the wrath of breaking a bond of trust."<BR/><BR/>Oh, I'm supposed to be a big school marm, walking around and shaming everyone? It's not grade school! And I don't even care if they instant message. It's less disruptive than whispering. The only problem -- and it's a big risk -- is if you start laughing, when nothing about what is happening in class is provoking laughter from other students. If you are just one person laughing, you better believe I will call on you, ask you what's funny, and when you can't explain yourself, you will have to answer the next question. Why am I tough about this? Because now you're distracting <I>me</I>! So if you can't control your face, you'd better not engage in extraneous activities that might make you laugh!Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146743603016427132006-05-04T06:53:00.000-05:002006-05-04T06:53:00.000-05:00MMF "Well, if professors actually DID count class ...MMF "Well, if professors actually DID count class prep and contributions that would be great, but in my experience they "reserve the right to do so". In reality your anonymous exam is graded (and what seems like months later)that same grade is posted as your course grade."<BR/><BR/>I absolutely do count class participation. The exam is graded anonymously and entered into the computer, I then click to lock in those grades and see the name, and I then put in the participation grades and lock in the final grade. When I'm doing the anonymous grades, I set them at a level that accounts for the grades I'm going to add. That means that a person who failed to participate will end up with a grade a step lower than he would have had on the written exam alone. And, by the way, I go almost entirely with volunteers in class, and students do participate.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146742874039029622006-05-04T06:41:00.000-05:002006-05-04T06:41:00.000-05:00" And peer pressure? Come on Ann, I can't think of..." And peer pressure? Come on Ann, I can't think of any way to be labeled a gunner faster than to complain about other students' internet use in class..."<BR/><BR/>Ha! So obviously, I'm right! Peer pressure is woking like hell on you as it keeps you from doing anything that would make other students think you're too serious of a student. Well, you've made your choice then, haven't you? You participate in the peer pressure that works against being a serious student, but then you worry about all the conspicuous unseriousness that takes place because no one dares to convey the attitude that students should be taking it seriously. And then you want Teacher to come to the rescue! Ha! You've made your choice, so now it is your responsibility to deal with the distracting environment you yourself are fomenting. My contribution is to make the classroom challenging enough that not taking it seriously affects your GPA. <BR/><BR/>I guess the option of sitting in the front row is out, right? Makes you look like a gunner!<BR/><BR/>Me, I always tried to sit in the front row when I was a law student. I thought the backs of people's <I>heads</I> were distracting. And I took lots of notes, not because I was a mindless stenographer, but to keep my mind from wandering.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146719502970247522006-05-04T00:11:00.000-05:002006-05-04T00:11:00.000-05:00Bruce, I think the self is malleable based on the ...Bruce, I think the self is malleable based on the situation. I think many students who are nervous or freeze in classes of 90 law students will not be nervous or freeze when presented with a few adversaries in a negotiation, or in front of a judge at a trial.Ultimate_Lawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09198427160251894460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146719195999416622006-05-04T00:06:00.000-05:002006-05-04T00:06:00.000-05:00I am not sure if what is practiced in law school i...I am not sure if what is practiced in law school is truly the Socratic method. Nevertheless, I did find it useful in training me to refine my legal arguments. But that is just me - I have always learned best under extreme duress, and so chose to put myself in that situation as much as I could in law school.Bruce Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10815293023158025662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146719033620105812006-05-04T00:03:00.000-05:002006-05-04T00:03:00.000-05:00I am adamantly opposed to VOLUNTARY class particip...I am adamantly opposed to VOLUNTARY class participation as a component of grades in LARGE law school classes. It seems to put a premium on verbal masturbation, which privileges a few individuals, regardless of the quality of what they say. Moreover, it tends to result in students being graded on personality rather than performance. Some students are either shy or extremely nervous, and it seems ridiculous to penalize students for this. One student's personality might be to raise her hand when there's an awkward silence, whereas another's personality might be nervousness. This is no way to grade one's knowledge of a subject, since it is wholly unrelated to knowledge, preparation, and ability.<BR/><BR/>On the other, hand, I do support professors randomly calling on students regularly. From my experience, it seems to be an effective method of getting most students to cease their web-serfing ways in class. It also requires the student to be engaged (in order to render the most diligent attempt at not subjecting herself to embarrassment), and in this manner it enhances the learning experience. At UW, Professor Palay successfully does this. In my class last year of approximately 60 students, he would call on approximatley 1/6-1/4 of the students each class. Predictably, very few studetns IMed in his class.<BR/><BR/>John Althouse Cohen raises some excellent points regarding the virtues of laptops as a note-taking tool. Sometimes transcribing a professor's entire line of reasoning to a particular conclusion can be quite helpful as a future study tool. Moreover, I think my note-taking, grades, and classroom experience would suffer if I had to write my notes. I have awful hand-writing and have to stare at the page to ensure that I'm not straying to another line, all while focusing on what was said as opposed to what is being said, whereas I don't need to look at my keyboard when typing notes, and thus can continue to observe the professor and listen to what he's currently saying. <BR/><BR/>Anyhoo, grading based on class participation is evil and leads to absurd results in large classes. Randomly calling on students, propounding a policy that IM-ing and displaying distracting images on one's screen, and ridiculing students who create such distractions seems to comport better to the goals of enhancing the learning experience. Banning laptops merely serves to assuage the damage to the egos of professors who can't bear the fact that students believe he or she is boring.Ultimate_Lawyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09198427160251894460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146718903637250412006-05-04T00:01:00.001-05:002006-05-04T00:01:00.001-05:00I think that taking classroom participation into a...I think that taking classroom participation into account in your law school grades is helpful in why you are in law school in the first place - to become lawyers. The attorneys who are afraid to speak out, are intimidated by profs, etc., are likely to get run over by many of the real live attorneys out there who use intimidation as just one of their tools of the trade.Bruce Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10815293023158025662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146718881156048782006-05-04T00:01:00.000-05:002006-05-04T00:01:00.000-05:00I have not banned laptops and cannot imagine doing...I have not banned laptops and cannot imagine doing so. While I acknowledge the problems, a ban on computers would be worse.<BR/><BR/>The problem with transcribing on the computer as opposed to pen-and-paper is that transcribing is possible with the computer. It isn't with pen-and-paper (unless one has incredible shorthand skills -- a lost art). The fast typists are actually in the greatest danger of being able to transcribe and not engage. Anyone that has to think about what to type is processing the information -- just like the old note takers do.<BR/><BR/>Giving the students the option to choose their seats helps, so long as the students recognize the problem, and I suppose more and more students will. Nonetheless, I hear first year students complain about the distraction as if it is a new phenomenon to them. (For the record, I do not use a seating chart, so my students can move wherever they want.) <BR/><BR/>For those who jumped to the conclusion that my classes must be awful if I worry about the quality of the discussion, I would suggest the opposite is true. The people who don't worry are the ones who get stale. <BR/><BR/>Of course, attendance policies are paternalistic. So is the "Socratic dialogue". (Is it my responsibility to terrorize students into being marginally prepared for my class so they will not be embarassed when I call on them? I don't think it is.) <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure law schools should abandon all "paternalistic" policies. Law students pay serious money for the faculty to guide them through a three year educational experience. The underlying premise is that we can do something for students that they likely cannot do on their own. (If that is not true, then we should have correspondence schools or "reading the law" a la Abraham Lincoln.) How far should we go in enforcing our judgment of what is needed to acquire that education? Alternatively, how weak is our product if we do not state clearly what we think students must do to obtain a quality legal education (not merely a frameable piece of paper)?stealthlawprofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09676006515108383103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146718595607197372006-05-03T23:56:00.000-05:002006-05-03T23:56:00.000-05:00I did law school a bit before laptops, so can't co...I did law school a bit before laptops, so can't comment directly, but I don't think that peer pressure works all that well. After all, if you can't overcome a little peer pressure, then how can you expect to survive opposing counsel yelling at you? Trying to paint you as the most vile attorney he has ever been opposite of in court? <BR/><BR/>I suppose that law school now is kindler and gentler, but my memory of 1L was that all the 1L profs had taken "Paper Chase" to heart, and their goal was to either intimidate their students, or turn them into attorneys who could stand up to them, and, ultimately, the world. <BR/><BR/>I am not a fan of mandatory attendance. It is demeaning to treat adults that way, and if they think they can learn as well outside of class, then, fine, there are plenty who do want to come to class. This was esp. hard for me, since I hadn't had mandatory attendance through my undergraduate education, nor in grad school in either business or computer science. On the other hand, I was one of those who learned best by challenging my profs, and so did go to most of my classes. (And that is why I loved law school, because I never got my grades impacted for it, like I did in business school).Bruce Haydenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10815293023158025662noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146717360280915422006-05-03T23:36:00.000-05:002006-05-03T23:36:00.000-05:00For the people who do go to class, there seems to ...For the people who do go to class, there seems to be little correlation between their participation and their grades. This is not the law school's fault, from everything I've heard they adopted the anonymous grading system, no points for class participation system so that the students who either do not like talking in class, or who feel uncomfortable talking in class, do not see their grades suffer. That policy is absolutely understandable. <BR/><BR/>The flip-side, of course, is that it gives students barely any incentive to participate in class, to put their hands up, or even to be intellectually engaged in the dicussion. Furthermore, some classes just DON'T have interesting discussions. Civil Procedure, for instance, is one of the most important courses one takes in law school, but there is little to discuss. Con Law, Contracts, Crim Procedure,and some others have great discussions, but many law school courses, especially business law-related courses, don't have much at all to discuss. Hence, you get people going onto e-mail and the internet during class. If they didn't have laptops, they'd probably just be doodling instead.Wade Garretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02427231454565149921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146717004693324192006-05-03T23:30:00.000-05:002006-05-03T23:30:00.000-05:00In my experience, there's not much of a relation b...In my experience, there's not much of a relation between the actual classes one attends in law school and the final exam. In every class, there are people who get good grades and don't come to more than a couple of classes over the course of the semester. Most exams are based on the reading, with no midterm, no participation grade, no group assignments, etc. Exams are graded anonymously. If you do a really good job on the reading, and take notes on the reading, and ask an student who took it the previous year for help with the tricky parts, you can do very well on exams -- some people at the top of the class rankings here at the UW law school rarely go to class.Wade Garretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02427231454565149921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1146716705716678332006-05-03T23:25:00.000-05:002006-05-03T23:25:00.000-05:00One of our classrooms has a camera at the back, co...One of our classrooms has a camera at the back, controllable by the professor at the workstation in front of the room, and the camera can pan/zoom to see the screens of approx. 50% of the room.<BR/><BR/>There's only one prof who has used it as such, but he's a notorious ass.Joe Gileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13236127098086096362noreply@blogger.com